PDA

View Full Version : The Magian



Elton Robb
06-18-2007, 04:29 AM
Discussion thread for The Magian (http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/index.php/The Magian). If you would like to add a comment, click the Post Reply button.

So, does anyone have any suggestions?

Thelandrin
06-18-2007, 11:10 AM
Well, first I'd write the top part as:

Awnshegh Lich Wizard 20
Lineage: Minor Nobility
Bloodline: Azrai, 44
Size/Type: Medium Undead (Awnshegh)
Hit Dice: 20d12+60 (160 hp)

How on earth can he only be a minor bloodline as any type of awnshegh? Also, if he has 60 bonus hp, his average hp should be 190 hp - you've severely undercut him.

With the skills, don't include ranks and bonuses in brackets, unless it's a variable bonus. If you want to show us how you calculated the skills, feel free to put in this discussion thread or at the bottom of the page.

Aren't you including two levels of Scion (Azrai)? Even so, I'd imagine that his CR would be at least 23.

The term is "prepare" instead of "memorise" in 3rd Edition :)

Finally, is that all the Magian likes to use his most powerful spell slots on? They seem highly situational.

Elton Robb
06-18-2007, 12:19 PM
Yes, it is, isn't it? Besides, it was a direct conversion from Blood Enemies.

Gman
06-19-2007, 05:27 AM
Do third edition scion still have the option of "training" their hitpoints up?

You used to be able to spend a 3 mth action "training" and get a 1 Hp - up to your Hp max.

Personally any approx 1000 year old has probably had enough spare actions to train for max hp if they are that way inclined.

Which also brings me to my next point - the Magian from memory has a one of the few copies of a Bloodline theft spell and power enough to have upgraded his blood line from any number of victims.

As a power obsessed creature he would have done both the above.

In the histories it always strikes me as odd how low a lot of the Major players are in bloodline score (Gorgon, Raven, Rhoube, Magian) especially if they are renouned for blood theft.

Is there anything in the current rules to stop them from gaining more and more bloodline score because even if they only manage to gain one blood point a year....

AndrewTall
06-19-2007, 04:33 PM
Do third edition scion still have the option of "training" their hitpoints up?

I think so - but instead of automatically gaining one I think you effectively re-roll hp and gain a hp only if the re-roll exceeds your former total.



In the histories it always strikes me as odd how low a lot of the Major players are in bloodline score (Gorgon, Raven, Rhoube, Magian) especially if they are renouned for blood theft.

Is there anything in the current rules to stop them from gaining more and more bloodline score because even if they only manage to gain one blood point a year....

RP conversion should bump the Gorgon regularly given the expanse of his source holdings...

Possibly a limit based on bloodline strength might be useful - or a non arithmetic progression for Rp conversion beyond a certain point.

Thelandrin
06-20-2007, 09:24 AM
Why does the Magian still have a poor 5 hp/HD average? He's 30 hp under average and, if he was going to train his hp, there's an obvious place to start.

Dcolby
06-20-2007, 06:46 PM
You know the Magian has always been a very interesting Awni.. however I tend to avoid using him in games. I guess I was unable to reconcile the whole undead keeping a bloodline thing.

Also since in other writings the "land" reflects the ruler. (The Land and the King are one bit) I always wondered how anything ruled and connected to the blood of a twisted corruption of life could be prosperous or even thriving.

Unless the puppet the Magian rules through is connected to the land and the Awni pulls the strings...hmmm I may have answered my own question.

Elton Robb
06-20-2007, 06:54 PM
Think of the Magian's realm and compare it with the Empire in Star Wars. The Magian and Darth Sidious have a lot in common; almost. The Magian has a very noble idea of uniting Cerilia. This is what keeps his realm prosperous. The Magian wants to restore the Anuirean Empire himself, just to bring stability to the Continent.

Darth Sidious wanted to take the Galaxy to get revenge and to restore the Sith Empire. He succeeded, but a few systems threw up their arms in Rebellion and Darth Sidious used it to advance his own political power.

Gman
06-21-2007, 05:19 AM
Liches have sometimes been given either full Hp or Extra hp in 2nd ed. (Liche template does give them D12 in third). If I use any massively powerful intelligent NPC's I give them every advantage a power gaming player would have taken. My players can expect Godlike beings to have maximum Hp - especially when the rules make max HP eminently achievable for any 1000 year old power hungry NPC.

Usually the Lichedom slows down liche's experience gain.

Bloodline could also be more difficult to increase or impossible to increase once the standard Lichedom is obtained.

However the Magian could be entitled to a special sort of Blood Lichedom.

Especially considering his knowledge of Blood spells.

Thelandrin
10-02-2008, 07:57 PM
I've edited the Magian, rejigging his hit points and making his blood powers (some of which were incorrectly described) obey the most blatant conventions. I arbitrarily altered his SR to 26 - 20 for his Hit Dice and an extra +6 from his blood power.

bbeau22
10-03-2008, 02:10 AM
I also replaced 5 levels of wizard and give him and 5 levels of prestige class arch-mage.

He would be the only person in the world that I will allow. Gives him a little extra edge and making him ultimately the most powerful wizard on the continant.

-BB

Magian
10-03-2008, 05:35 AM
I also replaced 5 levels of wizard and give him and 5 levels of prestige class arch-mage.

He would be the only person in the world that I will allow. Gives him a little extra edge and making him ultimately the most powerful wizard on the continant.

-BB

I agree that the Magian should be the epitome of spellcasting, arcane research and logical if not even scientific pursuit. Though his form doesn't have the martial prowess of the comparable powers of the Gorgon and Raven it should be considered that his form isn't his limit. The Gorgon and Raven can die but once and in his lich-like form it is implied that the Magian's form can be destroyed limitless times. Thus he is much more able to take greater risks and get greater gains with out losing much but a temporary form. And that is using assumptions of one of the lesser interpretations of the Magian's power.

Now to address an assumption about the Magian. From Blood Enemies page 59 paragraph 2, "The Magian's orgins are obscure, and his name was unheard of in Cerilia until six years ago. The Magian was a spellcaster from across the Sea of Dragons..." It seems that it is assumed that the Magian is one of the Lost. There is one place that I've found that says he is and that is Bloodspawn page 4 last paragraph. However the lost files of Richard Baker makes the implication that this is false by not naming the Magian as one of the Lost. I agree with this assumption cause it fits the story much better.

The problem of the Magian having a minor bloodline. If he's only been exposed to the divine essence for only six years, then it makes sense. Also if that is true, it is a testament to his sheer power that he's achieved such a high bloodline in that little time.

The problem of the Magian's HP being so low. He doesn't need martial prowess cause of his master over magic. His martial prowess comes from his controlled undead minions that he has conquered and now uses their powers to his own ends. Thus it would follow that any realm he takes over you could see the former masters, lords and regents join his legions of undead proxies. I wouldn't rule out the Gorgon and Raven among those he has on his list for such a place either.

The land of the Magian being prosperous is testament to his vision and methods of how to run a realm. The Gorgon is not a leader he's a warrior. There is no real future for him as an emperor of Cerilia cause he doesn't give room for trade amongst other things thereby limiting any expansion. The Magian balances everything it would appear and lets the realm function as a realm. His twisted and corrupt form are but a means for his end. Thus the essence of the gods that has been absorbed into his "soul" reflects the style of his rule not what is happening to his body. The original game mechanics of realms having alignments would support this assumption.

The assumption that the Magian is a lich. I agree if we went with him being one of the Lost it would be a special form of lich not completely bound to the template. However I don't agree with that assumption. Therefore I like using a lich-like model for him.

There is a bias that the Magian isn't as powerful as the Gorgon I admit. Also there is no way to convince any long held consensus that the Magian is one of the Lost to the contrary. I simply choose not to gimp this character and use him to his full potential. It's my personal setting choice. I won't convince you and you won't convince me. The rest is blah blah blah on these two issues. Let's just focus on sharing ideas about this character and see what happens.

With that in mind let me begin with my ideas for some general background. The Magian comes from a continent far off. His culture is oriental like China. This ancient human culture developed a way of arcane spellcasting and divine spell casting is not as dominant as it is in Cerilia. His psychology is alien to Cerilia as his culture is very different. He reveres his emperor and culture to this very day. However due to his dark magics and immoral arcane practices he was banished from his homeland and forsaken by his emperor. The Magian ended up on the fringes of his homeland and gathered a following among "barbarians". His troops that he brought over are from a Mongolian-like nomadic warrior culture that have remained loyal to him.

I haven't worked out everything cause no one has ever penetrated that far into my storyline for my personal DM pet. What brought him to Cerilia? Ambition for his own empire modeled after his homeland of course. That's how it is prosperous. That is why his bloodline is minor. The use of necromantic arts is forbidden by his nature friendly / heaven friendly homeland. For him there is no conflict so he didn't take offense or grudge against his emperor. His lawful outlook does support that he still uses his culture as his foundation for his vision. Like I said his psychology is different allowing for his banishment, reverence, and strict adherence to the honor code and legal codes of his homelands. Cerilia is much smaller than his home continent, therefore to him its a staging ground for his empire. His character flaw is the mandate from the heavens to his original homeland.... I haven't really worked that out if he would abide by imperial decrees or if he follows his own interpretation of it being freed from imperial law by the banishment. However he would never expand into his homeland it is sacred to him.

As far as my pet's powers? Nope you don't get that sorry. That's all for me. :)

I just wanted my ideas and interpretations to be seen before you all decided on using the cookie cutter version of my favorite Awnsheghlien for the wiki.

AndrewTall
10-03-2008, 08:58 PM
The assumption tends to follow from 'very powerful mage', 'undead', etc togeter with the current resurgence of the lost (the raven, el shaighul, etc) in the area. I tend to consider that the Magian is actually alive, and made lich-like by the awnsheghlien transformation rather than an undead who got a bloodline - it saves a lot of worries around the sidelines.


On hp, the brcs says you re-roll, and gain 1 hp if the re-roll is higher, that would lead to a trade-off as as hp increased the action became increasingly unlikely to have any effect - particularly for a spellcaster who probably fights from well to the rear. I'd make the magian go for 2/3 or so of max hp, the raven who is more martial go for 3/4 and only the Gorgon and similar bricks go for 90% or so.


Personally I always saw something of a Sauron clone in the set-up for the magian. Since the khinasi already had a big-bad-spellcaster (the serpent) the magian seemed a little redundant, so I tend to move the serpent more towards mad schemer with a tendency to get religious and swim around eating people with the magian then becoming the almost academic ice-cold genius scheming his way to victory (with the odd frankstein's monster and other warped experiment wandering around)- much like the white witch fiscally but with less set philosophy (aside from pragmatism).

Magian
10-04-2008, 09:22 AM
Referring to Tolkien parallels: Both the Gorgon and Magian have attributes that embody Sauron in character and storyline.

The Gorgon is a titan in combat, fields gargantuan armies, fallen humans serving his cause, fallen line of kings of Anuire, Mhoried (Gondor), Imperial Chamberlain (Steward of Gondor), Imperial City (the White City), Halflings aid Michael Roele (Hobbits aid in restoring the King), and champion of Azrai (apprentice to Morgoth).

The Magian with the lich-like model, powerful magic, the riders (ring wraiths) and of course the phylactery the One Ring.

kgauck
10-04-2008, 11:58 PM
I don't recall how many skill ranks Archmage has, but Wizard had only 2, so as someone who totally rates character power based on their skill set, it wouldn't be hard to devise a 12th level character who is more powerful (skill-wise) than a Wizard 20 or a Wizard 15/Archmage 5.

Given a good use of synergies, the 12th level character would be punching above his weight, more like 16th level, and would have more options, so the Magian might be able to impose some obstacles in two or three areas, where the 12th level character would have 70-80% of the ranks, but the 12th level character might also have two or three areas where the Magian would look like someone's apprentice.

Depending on how much a DM relied on skills vs other means (like spell) to answer the question, can this character do this, a Magian build might need to substitute four or five levels of wizard for something high skill that can support a wizard, like a player version of Expert, the Scholar class, or something on that level.

bbeau22
10-05-2008, 01:40 AM
Well with the page on Wiki he has a 22 intellegence so we are talking about a 6 extra skills on top of his regular skills available. That is also a +6 on all intellegence based stats. With a few well placed feats he would be incredibly skillfull without the need of a supplement class.

I have also debated giving him some sort of artifact like a staff of Magi or something of that vein. Perhaps a powerful crown that boosted his intellegence even further. Haven't really decided yet.

I like the arch-mage senario, even just a couple of levels of it for a few of its abilities. I would most likely choose ...

1. Improved spell turning. If he successfully counter-spells another caster the spell is reflected back on them.

2. Change the damage type of the spell. Turn a fireball into a sonic ball or ice ball.

I would like to see what the wizards of Khanasi would think if they challenge him and he busts out those abilities.

-BB

kgauck
10-05-2008, 02:12 AM
A 12th level intelligence oriented character probably has an 18 INT (15 the best score from the standard array plus 3 attribute increases) So that's another a modifier of two less than the Magian. Still doesn't suggest the Magian has enough of an edge over a 12th level character in skills - again assuming skills really matter a lot.

bbeau22
10-08-2008, 06:49 PM
A 12th level intelligence oriented character probably has an 18 INT (15 the best score from the standard array plus 3 attribute increases) So that's another a modifier of two less than the Magian. Still doesn't suggest the Magian has enough of an edge over a 12th level character in skills - again assuming skills really matter a lot.

I did take a look at this further. You certainly make a good point but there should be some updates to the Magian.

- First is the 22 intellegence. This is what is listed in the Blood Enemies book for 2nd edition. Back then there was a much more solid cap of 18 for ability scores so an NPC with 22 would certainly be intended to be much higher than everyone around him. In 3.5 would suspect that the number should be much higher. He has pretty good stats but perhaps just adding in 5 ability score increases (like he would have if he leveled and added a point every 4 levels). This could bump him up to 26 which is better.

- Second is the notion that level 20 character would be similer in skills as a level 12. While the level 12 character would have as many skill points, the Magian, even as is, would be much better in a fairly wide range of skills.

- Level 12 skillful character would have a max rank of 15. Given he has an 18 intellegence we would be looking at a skill check of 19.
- Level 20 Magian could have 8 seperate skills that have a max rank of 23 and intellenge based skill checked would be 29.

Now the question is .. are 8 different skills enough to be a good ruler. Lets just take administrate, concentration, diplomacy, knowledge Arcana (Int), Knowledge History (Int), Lead, Sense Motive, Spellcraft (Int), Use Magic Device, Warcraft (Int). Those are the 10 I would want to give him as skills.

I would just give him 6 of those skills maxed out and 4 at half.
Admin - 27 skill check
Concentration - 23 Skill check
Diplomacy - 25 Skill check
Knowledge Arcana - 29 Skill check
Knowledge History - 16 Skill check
Lead - 15 Skill check
Sense Motive - 14 Skill check
Spellcraft - 29 Skill check
Use Magic Device - 15 Skill check
Warcraft - 29 Skill check


I guess my point is even his low skills will proabably be close to a 12 level skillful character and his high skills would be far and away superior. Not to mention that skillful characters can't typically cast high level spells. There might be an obsucure Prestige class hiding out there I am not aware of.

I would just hate to take anything away from his spellcasting ability.

Sorry for the wall of text ... yet again.

-BB

AndrewTall
10-09-2008, 07:49 PM
The question BB, is how good is he at ruling all the holding types?

Diplomacy Province, guild 25
Warcraft Province, law 29
Leadership Law, temple 15
Know: arcana Source 29
Know: nature Source
Appraise Guild
Bluff Guild
Craft Guild
Gather intimidation Guild
Intimidate Guild
Profession Guild
Sense motive Guild 14
Know: religion Temple

He may maxes regency from province, law and source which is pretty good, but he is still totally reliant on 3P guilders and priests - he doesn't even have the skills to monitor them. I see him as an uber-alles type in desire to control so I'd at least try and give him some guild ability (enough not to be gulled) as he is focused on economic power as well as military power - I can see the Raven bankrupting his realm to win glory (and failing as a result), the Magian by contrast would balance his economy to maximise the output even if it meant waiting a few more years.

I'd note that with most of the competition topping out at L12, skills over 20 are overkill unless they reinforce the core character concept. So he could stick a few cp's into various skills to at least get basic awareness of them. Shouldn't warcraft be a cross-class skill by the way?

He does however end up having to be very specialised, while I can see him as a munchkin type with no skills outside of rulership and sorcery, particularly if he was not a ruler prior to coming to Cerilia, the level of optimisation is surprising. I'd expect lower diplomacy, leadership and warcraft unless he was a ruler elsewhere. If his int is dropped as he spends level ups on other areas - charisma for the rulership angle for example - then he really starts to suffer. That said, he is build as the arch-mage of the setting, so should probably stay specialised even if he suffers as a ruler from doing so.

I'd consider focusing him on sources and guilds, with a trusted lieutenant (Kas to his Vecna?) handling law and (nominally) province holdings. Apart from anything else, the more powerful looey's he needs, the more interesting his court and its inevitable internal machinations.

I'd also note that he needs 2-3 levels of an awnie class not just mage classes, while you can make it a spell caster awnie class to avoid losing that magical edge, something then has to give - either he gets weaknesses or loses out on feats, skills and saves.

bbeau22
10-09-2008, 09:53 PM
Good point about cross-class. One or two of them might be and I didn't account for it.

As for guilds so far he hasn't shown any will to take control of guilds and lets them mostly do as they please ... other than once and a while when he raids their warehouses. I was thinking that might be one area he might be able to be exploited ... to a degree.

Also with religion is another one he has mostly stayed out of. He has the full support of the temple in the land and can certainly bully any regent in the land. Having a high diplomacy would help him with that. Some knowledge in religion might make some sense.

I had him super high on warcraft simply because of how good his military might is. It is said he uses his magic perfectly with his troops. If he plans on conquering his neighbors then his warcraft must be high.

I do agree that diplomacy could be lower. He has other people usually do the diplomacy and he assist when needed. I wouldn't lower it past 10.

I could accept that he is slightly lower in spellcasting to make up some difference ... but certainly no lower than 2-3 levels and I would probably give him a a powerful magical artifact to boost it back up. Staff of Magi or some artifact crown. As the book says he is simply the most powerful wizard in the land and no spell is beyond his grasp ... I like to keep it that way.

-BB

Magian
10-10-2008, 06:05 AM
The discussion seems to be heading this way but I'd like to say this. His strengths I see in view of that last few post are "Power in Magic" and "Super-genius."

Through his "Power in Magic" he can do anything he needs. He could summon huge forces to destroy any military that threatens him. He doesn't need warcraft to be at a mastery level. Combined with his evocation and other mass damage spells warcraft becomes very minuscule a skill for him. He can be well read in warcraft so as to know how to utilize everything at his disposal for his benefit.

With his "Super-genius" he can build on his knowledge and know his own weaknesses and supplement them with his resources. Through domination, illusion, charm, or even creating a proxy he can get any skilled LT that he would need for any skill. If he spent any time in court, as a lord, adviser, or even a scholar of regency, then he could have low skills and know enough to utilize talented individuals and appoint them the the proper offices.

I don't think the Magian would rule directly like the Gorgon. Rather I think he'd set up an elaborate bureaucracy that would all answer to him and be extremely organized and efficient. With him being free to simply destroy anyone that would betray him with rebellion through massive magical attacks. I think he'd be more than happy to teleport into the rebel's unit and destroy him with death spells all the while the troops running in fear and singeing from his aura-spells. Then again why not just add the rebel to the riders as a permanent servant under his perfect control.

If he wants what it says he has in the book for a type of realm/rulership, then he'd need some diplomacy for sure. I think he is a master of people as well. He can read them and is a master communicator. That is how he judges the character of those he employs. I am guessing that only because of his undead form that he uses a proxy so as not to shock the people he rules for public appearance. The rest I think is his script such as addresses to the people are written by him. Thus he'd need a good actor and spokesperson.

I think intrigues are transparent for him as he can anticipate just about anything a foe could think of to do and be prepared. With any interaction or even correspondence he could calculate the intents of the sender easily. To me his is like a super-computer instantly absorbing information, processing it, storing it, and uses his penetrating perspective to translate and decode nuances and subtitles and even deceptions. In my opinion to tangle with the Magian is at that very moment to be conquered by him. His success in his mere 6 years supports that premise. Its just a matter of time before he decides to act upon it.

kgauck
10-10-2008, 08:26 AM
Through his "Power in Magic" he can do anything he needs.

I don't think this kind of power exists in Birthright. Simply doesn't exist.

Magian
10-10-2008, 10:32 AM
OK, then explain how he is unable to anything in the previous post. Not only is it possible in Birthright, several aspects of what I posted are already in play. The proxy he uses as his front man for example.

No one is saying he is like Elminster or any similar Forgotten Realms type mage. What is being said is that through his mastery of magic, there is no limit to his potential.

What I've seen of the 3E Birthright publishings is a Gorgon on steroids with nuclear missle-like abilities to destroy everyone with a gaze at will. There is a blatant bias for the Gorgon and his power that makes him beyond the power-balance of Birthright. Therefore to counter your statement I say in this particular example it does exist.

Am I correct in understanding that your intention is to make the Magian level 12 or are you just explaining that how you interpret the 2nd AD&D rules suggest his power is translates to 3E? Though I am no expert on 3E I would say level 12 is a gross miscalculation of the Magian's power. It was intended for him to have access to 9th level spells at least two character levels above the initial level of having that access. This I know for certain and is not negotiable, unless you wish to gimp the Magian. That is fine by all means, its your wiki after all.

With the Magian having such access to spells he is above the other casters in mastery of magic. The power of the spells he can research and learn is much greater. Therefore his potential to have powerful spells is viable.

If it is balance that is sought for the sake of the Birthright setting, then keep balance in mind. Another issue is direct translation of editions and power reflections. What does that mean to us in the void of Birthright in 3E? Also consider the bias I mention when it comes to popular characters that are more used vs. the less fleshed out characters that many players never even touched.

I know I'll never convince any of you of my ideas on the Magian cause what I am talking about is my Magian. I've used this character more than anyone who's played the game and have fleshed him out beyond what anyone has done. I feel compelled to share my insights and ideas to help this discussion along. Maybe it'll spark some ideas or give insights to those who don't have anything for him. There isn't much after all.

bbeau22
10-10-2008, 01:16 PM
OK, then explain how he is unable to anything in the previous post. Not only is it possible in Birthright, several aspects of what I posted are already in play. The proxy he uses as his front man for example.

No one is saying he is like Elminster or any similar Forgotten Realms type mage. What is being said is that through his mastery of magic, there is no limit to his potential.

What I've seen of the 3E Birthright publishings is a Gorgon on steroids with nuclear missle-like abilities to destroy everyone with a gaze at will. There is a blatant bias for the Gorgon and his power that makes him beyond the power-balance of Birthright. Therefore to counter your statement I say in this particular example it does exist.

Am I correct in understanding that your intention is to make the Magian level 12 or are you just explaining that how you interpret the 2nd AD&D rules suggest his power is translates to 3E? Though I am no expert on 3E I would say level 12 is a gross miscalculation of the Magian's power. It was intended for him to have access to 9th level spells at least two character levels above the initial level of having that access. This I know for certain and is not negotiable, unless you wish to gimp the Magian. That is fine by all means, its your wiki after all.

With the Magian having such access to spells he is above the other casters in mastery of magic. The power of the spells he can research and learn is much greater. Therefore his potential to have powerful spells is viable.

If it is balance that is sought for the sake of the Birthright setting, then keep balance in mind. Another issue is direct translation of editions and power reflections. What does that mean to us in the void of Birthright in 3E? Also consider the bias I mention when it comes to popular characters that are more used vs. the less fleshed out characters that many players never even touched.

I know I'll never convince any of you of my ideas on the Magian cause what I am talking about is my Magian. I've used this character more than anyone who's played the game and have fleshed him out beyond what anyone has done. I feel compelled to share my insights and ideas to help this discussion along. Maybe it'll spark some ideas or give insights to those who don't have anything for him. There isn't much after all.

If you have any other fleshed out material for him I would love to see it. He is going to be probably a central villian in my current Birthright Campaign and anything you got would be a help.

There are a few reasons to keep him at a high level wizard. The spell "Bloodline Corruption" is a 9th level spell and it clearly states he has access to it. So you can't drop him too much.

Certainly it seems also that he is one of the true powers of Cerelia .... according to the blood enemies book. Just read the Raven description and how he perceives The Magian.

You make a good point about the Gorgan. He is so over-the-top powerful that any complaints about the Magian being too powerful is just silly. I would honestly probably do the 15 wizard / 5 arch-mage / 1 Azari (or does he need two?). Add onto that power the Lich template and he is the most powerful mage in the land.

He has got some stiff competition in Khanasi with the White Sorceress already and El-Sirad. I would hate to drop him in level to them. He should be at a higher level than them ... unless you are just dropping all of the higher level character in the world ... which I have heard talked about a few times.

-BB

bbeau22
10-10-2008, 01:20 PM
And as a fun side note. In my current campaign I had The Magian let one of the scrolls of "Bloodline Corruption" fall into the hands of El-Sirad. What better way to weaken Khourane then to let their long standing enemy become an Awnshegh.

Good times.

kgauck
10-10-2008, 03:11 PM
My objection to your characterization of the Magian involves the notion that through magic, he can do anything he needs. I don't play a game of super powers and at will achievement. I certainly wouldn't have an NPC like that when the players are never going to get past 10th to 12th level.

Everyone has real, practical limits placed on them. The Magian doesn't know all, see all, nor is he capable of doing all. He's character that is roughly four times as powerful as the most powerful player character I would ever allow in normal play. But that is a far cry from being able to do anything he wants, or might need to do.

Ultimately, if I were going to use any of the big awnshegh, the Gorgon, the White Witch, the Magian, they are not beyond defeat. If the players really want to, and take the time and suffer the costs, make good decisions, then it is possible for them to win. Even if the Magian doesn't want them to.

Much of the description you have given to the Magian seems like he is just so cool that he transcends the rules that apply to normal characters. A 20th level character with all of his character levels in something like Wizard isn't much more skilled (using the skills system) than a 12th level character who has a class with a lot of skills. It would seem to me, that given this problem, the Magian cannot just hand-wave problems like anticipating intrigues, espionage, or enemy plans. He's not that good. A single 12th level regent of one of the neighboring domains could really hold his own without relying on allies. The Magian would be forced to fall back on his personal magical power, or realm spells. Personal power is very limited in a contest between rulers. Realm spells are still part of the normal domain system and don't allow the Magian to just will his way to victory either.

The Magian is nothing more than a powerful character.


No one is saying he is like Elminster or any similar Forgotten Realms type mage. What is being said is that through his mastery of magic, there is no limit to his potential.

I'm not sure how the second sentence doesn't just contradict the first. It all sounds very Elminster to me.


What I've seen of the 3E Birthright publishings is a Gorgon on steroids with nuclear missle-like abilities to destroy everyone with a gaze at will. There is a blatant bias for the Gorgon and his power that makes him beyond the power-balance of Birthright. Therefore to counter your statement I say in this particular example it does exist.

The Gorgon as written for 3rd edition is not a character I see any use for. I did use the Gorgon during second edition. He invaded Baruk-Azhik, his army was harrased in the mountains on the way up, stayed until his army ran out of food, and then had to retreat back into Kieragard, again harassed in the mountains. The Overthane, a PC, never fought a major action, just fell back on Dwarven fortified mountain defenses and waited. For all his personal prowess, he lost. Major awnsheghlien are not infallible.


Am I correct in understanding that your intention is to make the Magian level 12 or are you just explaining that how you interpret the 2nd AD&D rules suggest his power is translates to 3E?

I'm not sure how any close reading of my posts leads anyone to to think I believe the Magian is 12th level. I think PC's top off between 10th and 12th level. So a PC opponent of the Magian would be, at best, 12th level. Given what a 12th level PC looks like when skills are the core mechanic for resolving conflicts, a 20th level wizard is roughly on par (or only slightly stronger) than a 12th level character designed to used skills. What I actually did propose regarding the Magian build is some levels with something with some skills. I have no problem with major awnies being 20th level. I think a 20th level wizard is awfully brittle.


I know I'll never convince any of you of my ideas on the Magian cause what I am talking about is my Magian. I've used this character more than anyone who's played the game and have fleshed him out beyond what anyone has done. I feel compelled to share my insights and ideas to help this discussion along. Maybe it'll spark some ideas or give insights to those who don't have anything for him. There isn't much after all.

Consider for a moment that my objections may have nothing what so ever to do with the Magian per se, but with any NPC that is not bound by normal limits on what a character can do. Phrases like "no limits" and "can do anything he needs" suggest that he is beyond normal limits.


In my opinion to tangle with the Magian is at that very moment to be conquered by him.

If taken seriously, this doesn't sound like an interesting game. Its one thing to flesh out a major villain and make them cool and challenging. Its another thing to make them invincible and inevitably victorious.

Maybe some of this description is hyperbole, color text, and meant to create a flavor, but I am responding to your post ojn the assumption that you mean what you have written.

bbeau22
10-10-2008, 07:42 PM
Ken you make some good points. My take might fall somewhere between.

There is something to be said about have a seemingly over-powerful nation on your border to create fear in your PC's. Not to say that he can't be defeated, but I like to set him up so that no single nation could take him down in the area. It would take a few allies at least to remove him from power and even then they would have to be very smart about it and probably pay a terrible price.

As a single NPC he is nearly unbeatable as writen. We don't have to change much there. Simply for the fact that he is a lich and can get into another body soon enough. Not to mention his Riders which are all very powerful and any one of them would be a tough fight, never mind 12 of them, and which they are nearly impossible to kill. If people found a way to kill the Magian there would be 12 riders hunting that person down.

I am all for having him weak in a skill or two that other countries can try to exploit. His strong suit is war, magic power, strong control over the province, source and law holdings. Guilds he hasn't shown much intrest in at all and temples he has an ally that so far can be trusted. I feel that he probably cares more about religion than the guilds so I would put out guilds as the only true weakness he might have at a regent level.

If my campaign lasts a long time I like to make it that defeaing the Magian would be one of the final biggest moments in the campaign. I think he is worthy NPC for that type of fight.

-BB

Magian
10-10-2008, 07:49 PM
The Magian can do anything he needs. As for anything he wants that is another matter entirely. What does the Magian need to do? Run a realm, get a set of skills that will enhance his rulership, maintain a formidable military, supplement his power with his magic. The magic in the game allows for all these things and more that I haven't specifically covered. That is to say there are more needs for the Magian to function as the ruler and conqueror that is described in the published material. His power of magic is one of the ways that can be used to answer the questions of skills that he'd need under his power to reflect that. You can use magic in this way without limit to supplement what you feel he needs in order to accomplish a decisive strength, power, and level of skill in his domain.

He is a supra genius and it is suggested to play him like an entity that can anticipate all possibilities. The game of reading people is a game like chess or cat and mouse. Dealing with a supra genius with a penetrating perspective allows for defeat of that game as the victor knows you and what you plan to do. The chance of an element of surprise is lost or minimal at most if you are of the school of thought of most Hollywood film makers. This element of the Magian I thought was a good device to explain how he took over his realm so quickly. As for dealing with other realms or PCs that is to be handled with what devices you choose to use for the making of this character of course. But still the Magian's power vs. a prepared PC opponent would have to take its course through actions. Being knowledgeable of intents and / or the psychology and being able to calculate nearly all if not all of the possibilities of your opponent is far from being omniscient, infallible, and all powerful.

I do not think the Magian is invincible. I also do not think that long lived lich-types have been used to their full potential as a villain. With the Gorgon given so much power or "play" in this game setting it would seem that he is the most powerful. He is a juggernaut with so many vassals, however he has a fatal character flaw. His ambition is fueled by conquering Anuire. That is a limitation in my opinion. The Raven is similarly flawed in character as he is bound by the constraints of Azrai and trying to become his heir. That is no small feat but he wears the trappings of another. How that is a limitation is he becomes over confident.

The Magian on the other hand I found no such flaws or limitations. The only flaw I found was player knowledge. Everyone knows he's an awnsheghlien and no matter what he did in Khinasi it would be seen like the Gorgon attacking Anuire, when in fact this character is a mystery and an unknown variable to the setting at large. He is not the Gorgon but in games is treated like a villain that is renowned as such even when he rescues a land from a dread new awnsheghlien. His people support him fully and he's seen as a tyrant elsewhere. In game this character should be treated with mystery, fear, and uncertainty. The Player Characters don't know much aside from reports of his success, rumors of tyranny, and that his people love him.

If the Magian should ever come up against a party of successful and experienced adventurers, then I'd think he'd have the use of his undead lords to supplement him and counter this group. Thereby the traditional mechanism of the villain standing there alone with a fully balanced party in combat would be thrown out the window. In his case it would be the PC's party vs the Magian's party. That is how I'd handle that situation. I am a DM that is a firm believer in PC death. That is what makes success in my games real.

Off topic:
I am not of the philosophy that there has to be an ad hoc Death Star answer to every villain. However an easily accomplish problem or weakness for the Magian is even though his is like a lich and can lose his current form limitless times, where is his Phylactery? If its in the shadow world then he could get stuck there again and have to work his way out. Therefore similar to El-Sheighul (forgive spelling) he could be absent for a time before he could make it back. Then again this poses the problem of who or what is protecting his Phylactery in the shadow world from the denizens that dwell there.

AndrewTall
10-10-2008, 09:13 PM
Personally I'd say that any one realm opposing any one other realm should be in for a major struggle - 3:1 is the norm for a decisive victory, anything else and random chance rewards the desperate and ruins the wise.

In my view the Magian did not 'conquer' Pipyret, he conquered the ruling caste and claimed the realm intact, then by removing governmental inefficiencies made the realm stronger than ever. Linguistic hair-splitting seen from the world-view of a noble where the nobility is the realm, a vast difference from an economic and cultural viewpoint - and from the method used as an attack on neighbours, the nobles expect an army, they get one - their own as it rises against them.

The Magian in my view saw that the over-stratified society caused immense inefficiency, idle nobles squandered wealth and opportunity while intense darwinism meant that their down-trodden servants actually ran the realm extremely well - at least within the failed constraints of the nobles. The Magian slaughtered the nobility (except those parts that capitulated and were useful) and liberated the masses - thus being seen as a saviour (with the diplomatic capital to overcome numerous issues) and immediately improving the efficiency of the realm by removing feuds between competing nobles, etc.

In terms of the battlefield I have little place for 'your character kills the army' approach to gaming, even a dragon should fear a few thousand soldiers and any mere awnshegh should be slain - albeit likely beneath a mountain of its victims.

I'd make the Magian very intelligent, but equally as important, very charismatic and aware of the folly of excessive ego. I work in an industry with legions of supremely intelligent people, some of whom forget coats in snowy weather because they are considering matters far beyond the merely mortal, buy xmas presents (on xmas eve) and leave them at a bench after being distracted by the sight of a curious weather pattern, and wonder why their spouse calls them in the office at 10pm sounding angry just because its their wedding anniversary - they can always go out at the weekend after all. A former boss was a genius, but had a raging ego which turned even once-loyal friends against him, one great mind can fend off a dozen average minds for a while, but eventually even it makes a mistake which can be used against it. The Magian understands the need for his tools to have their minor victories and petty powers - and builds such things into his plans just as he would build in the effect of the monsoon that will start 3 weeks late this year due to the influence of the second planet on the tides and resultant algae blooms reflecting solar energy away from the oceans...

With this perspective the Magian needs not merely to be able to understand things, have a keen eye for detail, recognise patterns in an instance, etc, etc - he needs to truly understand how and why people work - otherwise his governance will fail as his grand plans are ruined by bewildered underlings who fail to 'grasp the obvious' and 'fill out the gaps' in curt explanations.

If he keeps only basic understanding in warcraft, leaving the real spadework to a key looey (proven loyal to death and beyond) and - key point - has the intelligence to see past his ambition and allow the underling to command the Magian where to unleash his magic - that 'lost skill set' leaves the magian free to concentrate his skills on other areas leaving him well able to face a rival ruler who is otherwise more able skill-wise - it should be remembered that the Magian's int effectively gives him 3-4 more skills than his class would suggest compared to rivals, so he is only 2-4 skills behind a skill-based character, with 6-8 extra levels over rivals he catches up quickly - and then likely passes most of them.

In terms of level it depends on whether he has had a bloodline for a while, or just the last 6 years. Also whether awnie levels substitute for scion levels. I'd go for expert 2, wizard 13, awnie spell caster 5 giving him L9 spells and suggesting his initial background was as a court advisor, rapidly progressing to court mage, finally being consumed by the awnsheghlien transformation either as a side effect to his magic, or as a necessary path to true mastery of it.

This approach would allow him a 'common' man background (so he knows how the world 'really works'), give him a widespread of skills (probably 12-14) at rank 5-7 (enough to make any disadvantage of other slim unless they have heavily specialised and permit him to monitor servants), while leaving his magic intact.

The awnie would permit one archmage ability at each level, 1 level of spell casting, and have one disadvantage to balance out - perhaps making him vulnerable if one knows his true nature (no charm works on those who have seen his face!), vulnerable to cold iron (a traditional weapon against spellcasters), unable to directly harm a true innocent (this can be nasty if you interpret directly widely - the Magian could easily see tipping the last domino as exactly as tipping the first so leaving him impotent - unless his minions can identify the issue and deal with it!), and so on. I'd see him as strongly anti-cleric (such a pity, brother Aduth was so young and the illness so swift, still those cherished by the gods are the first to be called home are they not? The church has a thousand lay brethren to stand in his place and dispense wisdom, where his miracles are needed call on me and we shall see if my poor magics will suffice).


I'd say that as a regional boss any assault against the Magian made without planning should end in ignomious failure, a carefully planned assault with the use of many allies be able to reveal him to his supporters reducing him to merely his core allies, and finally - likely at great cost - drag him down.

I note that I'd get rid of the phylcatory completely and make him mortal - albeit immune to the passage of time. Similarly his followers would be arcanely enhanced, but still have some slight shred of mortality. I dislike the idea of unkillable foes and restrict re-spawn jobs to nature spirits and similar quasi-sentient elementals.


The Gorgon? Well I'd allow him past L20, but definitely tone him down! I'd start by removing his spellcasting completely - magic resistance and the eyesight to pierce illusions is all he needs (he gets a mage pet, probably an albino, possibly with a lisp). Then you get rid of the armour (he has skin that is stronger - just inscribe it with runes if you want it enchanted) and cut down the impact of insane bloodscore bonus on saving throw vs his blood abilities - I made great aunt Katrina as a trial Gorgon-killer and fell far short - if a dragon awnshegh can't survive 1 round (2 tops) without precisely chosen magic then the opponent is bust. :mad:

Hmm, sorry for the wall.

Magian
10-10-2008, 10:28 PM
In terms of the battlefield I have little place for 'your character kills the army' approach to gaming, even a dragon should fear a few thousand soldiers and any mere awnshegh should be slain - albeit likely beneath a mountain of its victims.

Firstly, nice post. I like the noble leaching approach to the Magian. It strengthens his power without using raw destructive power.

Lastly I'd like to defend my post and say that he could route a unit not an entire army. I think that is plausible.

bbeau22
10-10-2008, 11:41 PM
Firstly, nice post. I like the noble leaching approach to the Magian. It strengthens his power without using raw destructive power.

Lastly I'd like to defend my post and say that he could route a unit not an entire army. I think that is plausible.

He could in the right spot. If another regent was dumb enough to invade him and gave him time to prepare a destroy unit spell he could wipe out a few units right in front of him seemingly like he destroyed them instantly ... even though he had to prepare for a month.

So yes he could wipe out units. As a spellcaster I do agree also. 200 men could die at his feat before they could even reach him. Spells like cloudkill can reek havoc on a unit.

I have been working on his riders lately. I would like to hear what you guys have to say about them. I have given them the deathknight template and they have varying other classes. I have the leader being a Blackguard prestige class that was once a paladin but exchanged all of his levels to be a Blackguard.

kgauck
10-11-2008, 05:28 AM
All I see is Mary Sue.

Magian
10-11-2008, 06:13 AM
What about Marty and Gary Stu?

kgauck
10-11-2008, 07:16 AM
If you prefer.

Elton Robb
10-12-2008, 12:49 AM
The magian was designed to be a Regent, not Mary Sue. When I did the conversion, I concentrated on the fact that he was a powerful mage; but a regent in his own right. The Magian isn't designed to be some uberpowerful guy. The Magian is a regent who has a vision, that is to unite Cerilia under his control.

He just happens to be allied with the Raven and the Gorgon, but he isn't endeared to them. In fact, he thinks that the Gorgon is pining for something he'd never have and that the Raven is some misguided child about what a regent should be.

Green Knight
10-12-2008, 06:21 AM
Once again we have the problem of determining how powerful is 'powerful'...the Magian is one of the more potent awnies out there, and a very skilled spellcaster. But does that translate into a Wiz 20 with an approx CR of 20-something, or does he need to be a Wiz 30/Archmage 5/Scion 3...with a host of special blood-related powers?

Once again that depends on the type of campaign he's to be used in...so the only option I see is making several versions. Perhaps this could be done with several other awnies too (the wiki Gorogn is already one).

Examples:
- You could have one 'canon' BR version who is powerful, but neither omnipotent nor omniscient
- You could have a DnD v.3.5 abusive version or 'Mary Sue' if you will, that is everything you really wouldn't want in a BR campaign.

Could also include some tips about scaling the NPC up or down in power.

Magian
10-12-2008, 06:41 AM
Nah you guys go with your version. I'll shut up now and stop ruining Ken's fun. I will keep my thoughts out of your wiki project.

kgauck
10-12-2008, 07:05 AM
Having major characters at various power levels makes a lot of sense, because campaigns expect to operate at different levels of power. But no matter what level of power that is, one should always presume that there is some rough balance between the players and their opponents. Even really cool opponents can find they are opposed by really cool PC's.

I don't think that means there is no place for an exchange of ideas on other parts of the Magian's character, such as motivation, strategies, backstory, or other elements.

How powerful the Magian is compared to his opponents can be something we disagree on without ending all discussion.

Let's, for example, consider the Magian's domain. What is it designed to do? Produce a lot of cash (like the White Witch)? Produce extra effective espionage actions? Produce elite soldiers and military forces? Perhaps not since the Magian can use magic to open the door for standard troops. Win contest actions? Develop cool new realm spells?

AndrewTall
10-12-2008, 08:36 PM
Nah you guys go with your version. I'll shut up now and stop ruining Ken's fun. I will keep my thoughts out of your wiki project.

Please don't - the whole idea of the wiki is that it will have everyone's thoughts - not just the loudmouths (of which, of course, I am a prime example). So please do post Magian - and anyone else, whether they want to add a line or a thousand pages - the beauty of the wiki is that you can make alternate pages to anything you disagree with, add as much or as little as you like. It doesn't matter if we agree with you or not, someone may like your stuff, either to simply be amused or to be inspired to add it to their campaign - or upload their own take on the item - and isn't obtaining an audience and reaction one of the reasons we all write our stuff in the first place?


As to the purpose of the Magian's realm I see him as first and foremost as flexible - if his immediate opponents can be defeated most easily by force of arms he will optimise the realm to support a mighty army. If that approach would merely unite his enemies asgainst him he might optimise the realm for commerce and gain spies across the continent - to at first identify and then eliminate or convert his enemies. If the Serpent blocks a guild infiltration and alliances prohibit military might, he will build the magical power that he can master as only a handful of other regents can even appreciate.

To me the Magian works best when he moves away from the singleminded military juggernaut of the Gorgon, or the stark bloodthirst of the Raven, or even the eternal conspiracies of the Serpent, the Magian is the awnshegh who is 'intelligent' above all else - even his magic stems from that key aspect of the character. One example of this perception is that where his awnshegh 'peers' see PC's become threats to be eliminated, the Magian would see them become opportunities - powerful pawns that could be dangerous if mishandled, but who with proper guidance can reduce the Magian's rivals to ruin, which adds interesting layers to gameplay with him...

Elton Robb
10-12-2008, 09:55 PM
Andrew is right. I initially saw the Magian as a "Good Guy." A King Kaius sort of fellow who has good goals, but he uses evil methods to pursue them. I play the Magian as loosely allied to the other three. I also play up his good side.

If you all have a different version of the Magian, please post your version of him. The wiki allows unofficial as well as official versions of each of the characters to be posted. A line there, a new page there, it can only help the Birthright community.