[Branching from the Econ thread] Thoughts on the province holding for house rules

[Gwrthefyr]

... and other purposes

Considered possibilities

- Ideas for a "population support limit" separate from province level
- Possibilities for a dividable province holding
- Possible revisions of the population numbers (and considerations on the effects on source)


1. Population support limit
The basic structure is taken directly from the Ruins of Empire PBEM (kudos to the DM/author)

Weather

Warm Temperate - +1
Temperate, Subtropical, Cold Temperate - 0
Tropical - (initially 0, really, I have doubts) - -1
Subarctic - -1
Arctic - -2

Basic Terrain Types

Plains - 6/5
Steppe - 3/4
Moor - 3/3
Tundra - 1/4
Woods, Hills - 5/6
Forest - 4/7
Ancient Forest - 3/9
Jungle, Swamp - 2/8
Barren, Rocky Desert, Sandy Desert - 1/3
Low Mountains - 4/6
Marsh - 3/7
Glacier, Badland - 0/3
Medium Mountains - 2/7
High Mountains - 0/9


Features

Capital - +1
Major Capital - +2
Major Lake, Major River, Coast - +1 to both Population and Source

Secondary Terrain

Tundra, Jungle, Barren, Swamp, Medium Mountains, Rocky Desert, Sandy Desert - -1
Glacier, Badlands, High Mountains - -2


This is the starting effects - Agriculture type (2/3/4 field rotation, degree of pastoralism, enclosures, artificial irrigation) or the lack thereof could be factored in. What about roads and administrative structures*, the effect of trade, etc.

2. The Splittable Province Holding and mechanisms

The HRE in 1380 (http://www.rootsweb.com/~deubadnw/history/maps/d1380.jpg)

And it didn't get better as time passed.

In 1547 (http://www.rootsweb.com/~deubadnw/history/maps/d1547.jpg)

Such a situation could possibly be represented by making the province holding dividable, keeping the province within its borders as possibly representing something akin to the gau/pagus/shire/lan/etc, maybe a relic of former administrative practices that followed tribal organizations. Certain mechanics might have to be reworked.

3. Population numbers
I just can't wrap around my head the seemingly disproportionate effect of population on the Mebhaighl - using the canon numbers (level squared x 1000), a level 10 provinces is certainly not "all land put to cultivation", it's actually less than the estimated density of France for the equivalent periods assumed from Anuire or Brechtur. I don't seem to recall the modifications to field rotation from two to three to four to have had a serious effect on soil erosion and the like, although they did allow increased densities.


Admittedly, some of the rules and population tweaks are influenced by my favorite time periods (late renaissance to early modern) to DM in.

*Though, generally, I think sheer administrative efficiency increases over the principalities might better be represented by missing Law levels.

[kgauck]

You can easily represent short term adjustments by use of law holdings. The at start situation allows for rulers to rule up law holdings all over their realms. But this can be done in the beginning of a reign as the PC gets control of their realm.

What I am thinking about is the fundamental change that changes a medieval state (say, France, England, or "Spain" 1430) to a modern state (say France, England, or Spain 1530). The time scale is a bit longer, but parts of it can certainly take place within one ruler's lifetime.

PC's are basically the great, notable princes. I want for a PC realm, or a NPC realm that is to be the main rival for PC's, to be able to do more than just get their act together over the course of a few years, then expand. Intensification of the realm can go on and on, though generally you need some experience with how your last reforms are inadequate.

Its this additional level of intensification of the state over a longer period of time (not just getting your realm together) that I am interested in.

[Gwrthefyr]

You can easily represent short term adjustments by use of law holdings. The at start situation allows for rulers to rule up law holdings all over their realms. But this can be done in the beginning of a reign as the PC gets control of their realm.

Also an interesting idea - a state succession is not always a peaceful event.



What I am thinking about is the fundamental change that changes a medieval state (say, France, England, or "Spain" 1430) to a modern state (say France, England, or Spain 1530). The time scale is a bit longer, but parts of it can certainly take place within one ruler's lifetime.

PC's are basically the great, notable princes. I want for a PC realm, or a NPC realm that is to be the main rival for PC's, to be able to do more than just get their act together over the course of a few years, then expand. Intensification of the realm can go on and on, though generally you need some experience with how your last reforms are inadequate.

Its this additional level of intensification of the state over a longer period of time (not just getting your realm together) that I am interested in.

The probability of failure in reforms, of changing government orientations, people reacting to more than whether their tax account will change.

Might early colonization/exploration count in this?

And the possible effects of parliaments/estates? The effects of Oligarchies on a government (we have France's perpetual taxation, England's having to renew them yearly). Major naval developments. Events like the Estates at Blois or the Pilgrimage of Grace

Changing state orientations - a certain degree of pragmatism (the gradual adoption/acceptance of raison d'etat), the gradual intensification of the state's fiscal apparel, the gradual elimination of feudalism, either in part or completely. The intensification of trade and urbanization.

Somehow, maybe a way to dissociate population, infrastructure and government improvements?

[Gman]

I found it was enjoyable in my house rules to treat every city on the Map as a seperate province (i.e. somewhat like the Capital city of Anuire is treated).

This made for a more complex but enjoyable situation where a city could have quite a different mix of guilds and temples from the countryside.
A regents rule (law) was usually stronger in a city than the surrounding country and the city tends to dominate the surrounding countryside but when this starts not to be the case ...