Generic mythology, magic & anthropophobia thread

[AndrewTall]

I concur. I also think the human gods intervened directly, fighting side-by-side with their tribes in (powerfully spellcasting) avatar form.
Ryan

Now that actually fits canon very well - after Deismaar we are told the gods agreed not to interefere directly (Eloele cheats I think), indicating that they did so before Deismaar - possibly quite often (although that would suggest half-breeds should have been prevalent).

If Deismaar not only disrupted clerical magic, but also robbed humans of their greatest champions (avatars) then that would explain all sorts of things - such as the growth of human champions and endurance of the elven realms post Deismaar, and also add some intriguing options - do some folk believe that the gods actually died at Deismaar as opposed to reincarnating? Do other folk believe that the gods abandoned Cerilia? A bigger issue if you compact BR history to a 3 century empire followed by a fifty year collapse but still an issue for some legacy-types in a standard setting.

My view on rangers is that they work better as followers of Erik/Vorynn than simply 'nature' as all other divine casters in the setting need a patron, give the elves a few extra skill points or something to compensate or let them use the magician list...

[ryancaveney]

in PS of Tuarhievel it talks about the overwhelming numbers of humans which leads one to believe it had a lot to do with numbers (and possibly the priestly magic being the difference).

Clearly it has to have *something* to do with overwhelming numbers: if there were fewer human priests than Sidhelien wizards, they could not have made a big difference unless they were individually more powerful than the elves, which strains credulity -- unless we imagine that the gods answered the humans' prayers by granting many extra levels to their priests. One thing I've considered is that maybe this means there were an incredibly small number of elves before Deismaar; a million humans with 1% priests could manage to beat the elves without direct divine intervention if there were only a couple thousand Sidhelien in total, but I'd rather not go there.


"Still, the elves were pushed back year after year because of an element they had never encountered – priestly magic. The elves could easily call upon the forces inherent in wood and water, field and air, but had never worshipped deities – and thus, could not even begin to understand this new source of power. The human priests were the deciding factor against the elves' expertise in magic and combat, the old gods favored humans to such an extent that the elves found themselves practically powerless."

This section is completely consistent with the ideas of godly suppression of elven magic and direct divine intervention; I don't see why you think it disproves them. Furthermore, I think healing magic is far more "inherent in wood and water, field and air" than is the illusion or enchantment magic which are usually considered the favorite of the elves; therefore, I think this supports my position that whatever it was about priestly magic which defeated the elves, it wasn't access to healing magic. I think the part of priestly magic which defeated the elves was appealing successfully to the gods for direct intervention, including magic suppression and personal participation in combat.

In this way of looking at things, perhaps it was not Azrai who corrupted the elves, but the elves who corrupted Azrai! In order to defend themselves against the onslaught, they sold the most powerful and least cooperative (with the other gods) of the human gods on a plan in which they would help him defeat all his rivals, if he would first enable them to do so effectively by lifting the magic restrictions the others had emposed. Then, when at Deismaar he appeared to be winning, the elves betrayed him before he could betray them, and ensured he followed the other gods into oblivion. This neatly ensured that though they too suffered terrible losses, their power would recover better over time than the humans' would. In this version of events, the split with Rhoubhe Manslayer comes after switching sides against Azrai (in fact, I could very well see him as the one who finally slew Azrai) -- the other elves wanted to leave the field once all the gods were slain, but he wanted to switch sides again and stay until every non-elf present was killed as well.


Ryan

[AndrewTall]

One thing I've considered is that maybe this means there were an incredibly small number of elves before Deismaar; a million humans with 1% priests could manage to beat the elves without direct divine intervention if there were only a couple thousand Sidhelien in total, but I'd rather not go there.

In order to defend themselves against the onslaught, they sold the most powerful and least cooperative (with the other gods) of the human gods on a plan in which they would help him defeat all his rivals, if he would first enable them to do so effectively by lifting the magic restrictions the others had emposed. Then, when at Deismaar he appeared to be winning, the elves betrayed him before he could betray them, and ensured he followed the other gods into oblivion.
Ryan

A L1-4 wizard has little impact in a war generally, so you are only really comparing L5+ characters (dispel magic for priest and the start of the power ramp for mages). If you assume that elves rarely applied themselves hard to magic prior to the coming of humans, (the goblins were too disorganised for large numbers to need to do so) then a relatively low number of powerful mages may have been present amongst the elves - whereas the human priests would be quite driven to gain power and experience in defeating first Adurians as they fled, then goblins on arriving in Cerilia, then fighting the elves. Similarly elves may have been more likely to dabble in magic (i.e. take other class levels) then human priests were likely to multiclass. This approach means that you can have a lot more elves around before the human priests are outnumbered by the mages.

I take a more positive view of elves than you, in the second part I'd have Azrai promising the elves to leave Cerilia in peace once he had destroyed his enemies - claiming Aduria alone. The elves would be unused to an intelligent betrayer - most of their prior experience was with goblins and I see them as having a quite naive view of dim = evil and treacherous, bright = good and trustworthy until humans came along...)

The elves then turned on Azrai when they realised that he had something truly foreign to them - greed and ambition - and therefore would not relinquish Cerilia. Add the fact that the elves would regret teaching him magic given the clear perversion of the Lost - probably first seen by the elves at Deismaar, and his clear endorsement of goblins, orogs, gnolls etc (Azrai's minions must have led tens of thousands into Cerilia) and the elven about face on the battlefield is explained in my view.

[ryancaveney]

If you assume that elves rarely applied themselves hard to magic

I've never liked this approach. It just doesn't make any sense to me. Sure, they're dabblers, and they have other things to do, but they have *thousands* of years to dabble, and magic is as natural to them as breathing -- there is nothing they'd be more apt to continue playing around with for sheer amusement than magic. Therefore, I think elves with at least a dozen caster levels ought to be as common as the village blacksmith is for humans.


I take a more positive view of elves than you

*laugh!* That's definitely the first time anyone has ever said that to me. I'm such an elf-lover that I honestly think the Gheallie Sidhe are the good guys!


The elves would be unused to an intelligent betrayer - most of their prior experience was with goblins

I think they had enough experience with the dragons to learn the lesson well. (As a side note, in my view the dragons were once much more numerous, until they basically wiped each other out in their struggle for power.) I also think the elves started fighting the humans before they started dealing with Azrai.


I see them as having a quite naive view

Whereas I prefer to see their leaders (at least by the time of Deismaar) as canny practitioners of realpolitik. This may mean that rulership is considered more a burden than a privilege, but I don't think elven regents should have been at all naive once their wars with the goblins got underway.


dim = evil and treacherous, bright = good and trustworthy until humans came along...

To an elf, there isn't much difference in intelligence between a human and a goblin. =)


The elves then turned on Azrai when they realised that he had something truly foreign to them

I think this is actually a less positive view of the elves than is my opinion that they had always planned to turn on him, as part of a long-term project to eliminate all the human gods which were spearheading the destruction of their way of life. I give them enough credit to have known from the beginning that no attempt to live in peace with a victorious Azrai was ever going to work out well for them.


Ryan

[Beruin]

In this way of looking at things, perhaps it was not Azrai who corrupted the elves, but the elves who corrupted Azrai! In order to defend themselves against the onslaught, they sold the most powerful and least cooperative (with the other gods) of the human gods on a plan in which they would help him defeat all his rivals, if he would first enable them to do so effectively by lifting the magic restrictions the others had emposed. Then, when at Deismaar he appeared to be winning, the elves betrayed him before he could betray them, and ensured he followed the other gods into oblivion. This neatly ensured that though they too suffered terrible losses, their power would recover better over time than the humans' would. In this version of events, the split with Rhoubhe Manslayer comes after switching sides against Azrai (in fact, I could very well see him as the one who finally slew Azrai) -- the other elves wanted to leave the field once all the gods were slain, but he wanted to switch sides again and stay until every non-elf present was killed as well.


This is a great take on the Cerilian elves in general and on Rhuobhe in particular. I love it!!!
I think I will use this IMC, this will really surprise my elven player. Now, Mr. elf-lover ;) , what are your thoughts on the current situation?
The elves came up with a millenium-spanning plan, retreating to their most ancient forests until they are strong enough again to drive the humans away from Cerilia. But, do they still stick to this plan or have they mellowed? Are they still biding their time or will they strike any time soon? And how far is the knowledge spread that Rhuobhe killed Azrai? Does the Gorgon know? Is it common knowledge among the elves or do only a select few know? What about the Chamberlain? Other humans?

[irdeggman]

This section is completely consistent with the ideas of godly suppression of elven magic and direct divine intervention; I don't see why you think it disproves them.
Ryan


I didn't say (or at least I didn't mean to say) it "disproved" it only that it didn't support it to the extent you are saying it does and it supported my take more completely.

I don't think it says (or implies) that the gods dierectly intervened. The fact that the text about the gods: "The human priests were the deciding factor against the elves' expertise in magic and combat, the old gods favored humans to such an extent that the elves found themselves practically powerless" is written after a comma as a continuation of the first part of the sentence "human priests" implies something rather different.

I do not think that human priests and "priestly magic" is the same as (or equates to) direct intervention (via avatar) of the gods.

As far as the "new gods" deciding to no longer directly intervene - (Actually I believe the text is more along take physical form, but I could be wrong on that one)) - does not mean that they did before Deismaar.

In the Bible when God said he would no longer flood the earth and made the promise to Noah sealed with a rainbow- He hadn't done it before. There are other examples of things (not necesarily in the Bible) where people say they will never do something again after they've only done it once. It usually (almost always) follows something really, really drastic - like say Deismaar.

[ryancaveney]

This is a great take on the Cerilian elves in general and on Rhuobhe in particular. I love it!!! I think I will use this IMC

Thank you! *grin* That's really the most rewarding part of being on this list.


this will really surprise my elven player

You have just one elf in your campaign? How's that working out?


The elves came up with a millenium-spanning plan, retreating to their most ancient forests until they are strong enough again to drive the humans away from Cerilia. But, do they still stick to this plan or have they mellowed? Are they still biding their time or will they strike any time soon?

That is the central disagreement among them. IMC, none have gone so far as Cities of the Sun says Rhuannach has -- I still have the refugees there, but I definitely do not think they are allowed to have temple holdings -- but there is a range of opinion. The way I like to set things up, just before the campaign begins, the majority still think the time is not yet right, though a sizable faction think the extermination should now begin; only a few think that coexistence is possible (I usually think of the percentages as around 60-30-10). However, none of them have mellowed enough that they think coexistence is possible unless the humans first accept elven overlordship, elven ways of living in harmony with the land, and gradual conversion into half-elves -- that is the long-range plan adopted by Fiona of Rhuannach and Fhilerane of Tuarhievel; Fhiele Dhoesone, Torele Anviras of Talinie, and Adara bint Reshoud of Aftane are their most prominent agents.

However, in the very near future, the King of Tuar Annwn "decloaks" his realm, to continue Kenneth's Romulan metaphor (though I favor a Minbari-Vorlon mix, with a pinch of Robotech Masters, for my Sidhelien sci-fi influences) and convinces Llaeddra of Lluabraight that the time has come, and both begin slow expansion -- starting with nearby awnsheghlien, goblins, orogs and gnolls, so as to impress but not too soon frighten the humans, giving the other faction's plan a little more time to work (and a hint of threat to perhaps speed it up). After a decade or so, the two of them and Isaelie of Sielwode and Rhoubhe convince the nobles of Tuarhievel that Fhileraene's policies have become dangerously friendly with the humans, so it is time to depose him in favor of Rhuandice Tuarlachiem -- who immediately smashes Cariele, slaughtering every human there, and sweeps through Thurazor and the Five Peaks into Talinie and Boeruine, linking up with Rhoubhe and precipitating the general war which the Sidhelien win over the course of another decade. Along the way, a sizable number of Rjurik, under heavy pressure from the hard-line druids and seeing little better option, decide to accept voluntary magical conversion into half-elves and continued existence as the full elves' subjects and soldiers.

I haven't yet run this campaign in its full glory, because I haven't yet found the right party: bloodthirsty wargamers who want to both conquer the world and all play tree-hugging elves. In other words, people just like me. ;> Parts of it always show up, though, especially the change of government in Tuarhievel and the ensuing Gheallie Sidhe in Cariele on a massive scale -- but that last is sometimes considered cause for celebration in Mhoried. ;)


And how far is the knowledge spread that Rhuobhe killed Azrai? Does the Gorgon know? Is it common knowledge among the elves or do only a select few know? What about the Chamberlain? Other humans?

Many elves know. It's sometimes cited when teaching children about the foolishness of humans -- "most of them still worship the servants of the so-called gods we killed that day, though we who were there know they died also." The Gorgon knows -- it's why IMC he leaves Tuarhievel and Sielwode alone. As long as his goblins stick to killing humans and dwarves, Rhoubhe doesn't really care what he does; but if he ever threatens the elves again, the Manslayer will kill him, just like he once killed the Gorgon's boss. A number of humans have heard the story, but most don't believe it. I personally don't think the Chamberlain is quite that old -- Michael Roele's Chamberlain, yes, but not Haelyn's -- but if he were, he'd have been in the wrong part of the battlefield to personally know for sure, and would have far less reason than most to trust anything the elves say.


Ryan

[kgauck]

After a decade or so, the two of them and Isaelie of Sielwode and Rhoubhe convince the nobles of Tuarhievel that Fhileraene's policies have become dangerously friendly with the humans, so it is time to depose him in favor of Rhuandice Tuarlachiem -- who immediately smashes Cariele, slaughtering every human there, and sweeps through Thurazor and the Five Peaks into Talinie and Boeruine, linking up with Rhoubhe and precipitating the general war which the Sidhelien win over the course of another decade.

In full Romulan mode, I will take up Fhileraene's side of things, assuming that others go more or less as suggested by Ryan. The Prince has cultivated a set of servants, not only Fhiele Dhoesone, Torele Anviras of Talinie, and Adara bint Reshoud of Aftane. There is Rhuimach Taeline, who spent 80 years under the tutalage of Fhilerwyn during his reign and is now regarded as more fey than man. He is now the military commander in Dhoesone. There is Savne Mhoried, whose mission it will be to guide the policy and destiny of Mhoried so that it serves sidhe purposes. Other so-called half-elves, or hanner sidhe[/] if you prefer have been guiding realms and domains too. The High Mage Alies, who has placed Cole and Cale Alwier into the deepest government of Aerenwe. Alies personally defends the Erbannien and prepares it for sidhe re-habitation, and recruits elves willing to dwell there now. His placement of the Alwiers means Aerenwe is being prepared to serve sidhe purposes when the time is right. Braedonnal Tuare serves the same kind of purpose in Tuornen.

Now, when Fhileraene catches word that the grand plan is being put into effect, he puts his assets to work.

Conflict is fomented between Ghiallri and the Rjurik in the Giantdowns, the elves maintain the balance and keep the conflict at a boil so that both sides kill each other off. [i]Hanner sidhe "druids" who have been placed in those community will convince the Rjurik to ask the elves for help and the Giantdowns will suddenly be a protectorate of Tuarhievel. The Rjurik will nominally be happy citiezens, but in fact they are servants no less than the goblins were eons ago.
The arrangement between Dhoesone and the goblins of Thurazor is a sidhe plot to being about the destruction of both the guilds and Thurazor. When the time is right, conflict is sown between them and the guilld war, kept active by the sidhe, spreads to Thurazor, in phase II of this operation, Dhoesone and Talinie invade Thurazor and the goblins are destroyed with human cost.
Savne in Mhoried prepares the realm to deal with the most outrageous guilder in northern Anuire, Mheallie Bireon. But while she makes these preperations, she waits for Talinie and Dhoesone to be ready to cooperate to completly destroy the first human realm to fall to sidhe plans. Note, all the while no elf dies, always humans fight these battles and elves move in from behind to take control and settle the problems as saviors and proectors.
In Tuornen, a serious battle between the Manslayer and the humans ends with the destruction fo a human army. Braedonnal Tuare is in the north watching affairs in Thurazor and the Five peaks as Dhoesone and Talinie move against them. Braedonnal moves south and the Manslayer withdraws. Tuornen supports Talinie and Dhoesone in goblin affairs and cooperates with Mhoried regarding Cariele. Alamie is scouted in preperations for phase IV.
Agents from the High Mage, Mhoried, and hanner sidhe agents in Sielwode prepare the Eastern Marches for war, fomenting war between Osoerde and Ghoere, which will ultimately become a general war as Coeranys and Elinie are dragged in on opposite sides. Once Cariele is crushed, Mhoried and Aerenwe intervene in the war, on whatever sides make the most sense, “sides” are immaterial. Key forested places will be seized and elves brought into tend and protect them, while the humans spend themselves in war against one another. Alamie will be brought into the war by subversion, charms, espionage, or gentle prodding. Then Tuornen and Mhoried will crush that realm with harsh abuse. Refuges pour south and it goes mostly unnoticed that Cariele is now devoid of humans, having fled or been slaughtered.
By now it may be possible that wise counsel in Anuire or elsewhere might be alert to a sidhe master hand behind everything. These figures are long known to the elves, who 1) either employ them to misdirect “Manslayer is behind a plot to seize the Iron Throne!” 2) or they are discredited in advance, or 3) they are simply killed.
If by now the other faction of elves, the non-accomodationists don’t recognize that the humans have both advanced sidhe purposes and destroyed themselves, they have missed a great opportunity to gain control of half of Anuire and use it to destroy the other half, and then turn elsewhere. Ideally all this has been going on while the elves move on abominations and humanoids directly.
In the north, once Cariele is vacant, Talinie is prepared for a war in Boeruine with Tuornen under the command of Braedonnal Tuare, Torele Anviras, and other sidhe agents. If Braedonnal’s work with Manslayer has been effective, by now he sees the virtue of Fhileraene’s plan and initiates his own invasion of Boeruine. Talinie and Tuornen engage in talk that sounds like moving to aid Boeruine, but they invade as well. Once Boeruine is taken, humans are driven from the forest and the southwestern Aelvinwode prepared for re-sidhification.
Humans in Dhoesone and Talinie are taught, coerced, or forced to adopt sidhe care of the forests or move to the plains. Humans are gradually made into servants of the elves. Quietly without them even knowing, on the basis of war-time necessity or whatever argument makes sense on a local basis (building on work done by the hanner sidhe already).
Forces from Dhoesone are used in Boeruine or against the abominations as the elves see fit. Elves now defend Dhoesone from the Rjurik.
Treaties are made with the Rjurik guaranteeing their realms and borders, and the lands of west of Stjordvik and Hogunmark are saved for later.
By now it is expected that all human realms remaining in Anuire are fighting against the Tuarhievel coalition.
The elves will govern like the Romans, insurrection will be crushed by genocide.

Humans will generally fall into three categories, 1) those who must be killed, 2) those who may serve, and 3) those who are taken back to the sidhe homelands to be trained as hanner sidhe and to eventually rule as intermediaries between the humans and the elf lords.

Using Ryan's 60-30-10 ratios, perhaps the most anti-human will be happy to see 60% of men killed, 30% serve, and 10% lead, while the less anti-human might be happy to see 30% die and 60% serve, and 10% rule. The humans will now either learn to live in harmony withe the land as the elves originally intended when humans first arrive in Cerilia, or they will die as occasion presents itself. Either way, the elves rule.

[irdeggman]

Love the color, imagery and majesty of it.

Doesn't mean I would adopt it to my game - but it is still beautiful none the less.

[ryancaveney]

Once Cariele is crushed, Mhoried and Aerenwe intervene in the war, on whatever sides make the most sense, “sides” are immaterial. Key forested places will be seized and elves brought into tend and protect them, while the humans spend themselves in war against one another. Alamie will be brought into the war by subversion, charms, espionage, or gentle prodding. Then Tuornen and Mhoried will crush that realm with harsh abuse. Refuges pour south and it goes mostly unnoticed that Cariele is now devoid of humans, having fled or been slaughtered.

Oooooooooh! I REALLY like this plan.


The elves will govern like the Romans, insurrection will be crushed by genocide... The humans will now either learn to live in harmony withe the land as the elves originally intended when humans first arrive in Cerilia, or they will die as occasion presents itself. Either way, the elves rule.

I like the way you think, sir. My evil cackles are still echoing off the walls! :D This is much more entertaining than my plan, which was itself hatched mainly as a replacement for the more obvious but terribly dull "just cast Death Plague an awful lot." This way I can enjoy both reaping goblin heads like ripe wheat and watching the humans slaughter each other with abandon, thinking they do it for their own reasons but all the while playing straight into my hands. I love it! You have definitely saved Fhileraene's throne IMC, and proved him a worthy descendant of his grandfather the Manslayer.


Ryan

[AndrewTall]

I've never liked this approach. It just doesn't make any sense to me. Sure, they're dabblers, and they have other things to do, but they have *thousands* of years to dabble, and magic is as natural to them as breathing -- there is nothing they'd be more apt to continue playing around with for sheer amusement than magic. Therefore, I think elves with at least a dozen caster levels ought to be as common as the village blacksmith is for humans.
Ryan

Hmmm, that depends how easily you level up, and whether you take the view that memories and therefore class levels fade, of course given the right stimulation for long enough the elf who has dozed away a millennia might remember the days they fought the goblin hordes single-handed...



I think they had enough experience with the dragons to learn the lesson well. (As a side note, in my view the dragons were once much more numerous, until they basically wiped each other out in their struggle for power.) I also think the elves started fighting the humans before they started dealing with Azrai.
Ryan

Well, I don't see the dragons as schemers much either, armour plated fire-breathing engines of destruction not needing to do much scheming when dealing with the lesser races, and not deigning to inform the lessers of the dragons schemes against each other...

And the 1-2 centuries of experience with humans wouldn't count for much in my view - not when you have 10-20 millennia of experience of 'evil tree killing thugs = dim and incapble of concerted action' stuck in your mind, it could easily take centuries for the old ways to be forsaken and the elves to take on new tactics wholesale - about the time it took to turn the tides in the years between the original waves of immigration and Deismaar...



To an elf, there isn't much difference in intelligence between a human and a goblin. =)
Ryan

So why learn to make deep plots to foil them? Only after the elves see how the humans work together and create elabourate civilisations, and still breed like rabbits should they truly being learning to out-scheme them...



I give them enough credit to have known from the beginning that no attempt to live in peace with a victorious Azrai was ever going to work out well for them.
Ryan

Hmm Azrai was the subtle god - he would be quite capable of appearing to the elves as a forest spirit intent on turning the humans against each other, or as an elf showing the 'weaknesses' of the hmuans so that the elves could defeat them... Why have them know he is one of the human gods? It only harms his cause...

[RaspK_FOG]

Maybe the greatest error here is outlook; I mean, even in overpowering, ancient, powerful elven kingdoms of other settings, the average levels for all NPCs ARE NOT AFFECTED by the race of the settlement; furthermore, few Sidhelien are actually much older than most other settings' elves - most powerful people are the stuff of legend even - especially - in Birthright...

[kgauck]

Without an outlook, the DM can't build a setting. The outlook has to belong to the the DM. Hence it cannot be in error. Divergent from canon, or conventional setting interpretation, sure, but not in error.

[irdeggman]

Without an outlook, the DM can't build a setting. The outlook has to belong to the the DM. Hence it cannot be in error. Divergent from canon, or conventional setting interpretation, sure, but not in error.


Quoted For Truth

[ryancaveney]

even in overpowering, ancient, powerful elven kingdoms of other settings, the average levels for all NPCs ARE NOT AFFECTED by the race of the settlement

Now that's just silly. It does not make any sense at all, so it is a serious design flaw. I admit it is a willful flaw, done in intentional denial of the elven dominance which is a natural consequence of their lifespan and magical aptitude, but it is a flaw nonetheless, because it requires the setting to be ridiculously illogical and inconsistent.


furthermore, few Sidhelien are actually much older than most other settings' elves

I don't believe that, either. The typical elven realm in Cerilia is ruled by the successor of the person who ruled at Deismaar. I think the average age of elves in Cerilia is over a thousand years.


Ryan

[Elton Robb]

Hmm. This has gone off topic.

Anyway, to keep with the Elf theme. IMC, the elves are biding their time. Even though the Anuirean Empire is in ruins and they have many perfect opportunities to strike; Roubhe and the Gorgon seem to balance them out in Anuire.

And there are two other Awnsheghlien they are worried about: the Expansionists who are the Raven and the Magian. If the Gorgon, Rhoubhe, the Magian, and the Raven were out of the way, they could quietly expand and retake Cerilia by creating a Hegemonic Dictatorship (Join us or die; or We Expand or Die).

So, really, Kenneth Guack's Elvish Plan leaves out the Magian. The Magian has the tactical, realm spell advantage. As a 20th level Awnshegh Lich, he knows all the Realm Spells there is to know on the Arcane Side. The Magian can let loose plagues, the forces of nature, summon undead units (possibly from the Shadow World), misdirect attacking forces, and cause mighty battle magic.

He can annihilate the armies of Rhaunnach and Cwm Bein using Realm Magic. Then he and his undead forces can just walk right over the Elvish Realms. After cowing the Elves into submission, of course.

The Magey then would expand through Khinasi and Vosgaard; using his mighty magic to cow the Vos and the Khinasi. He may even use the Raven in his expansionistic plan. So, your Elvish plan isn't totally infalliable. There are too many variables to account with. The Magian being one example of these. And there is always a chance that their agents might betray them for the good of Anuire or Khinasi. But if you really want to do a really good plan of Elvish subversion, read GURPS Illuminati.

No doubt Illuminati exists in the BIRTHRIGHT Campaign Setting. Groups planning not to take over just Cerilia, but the rest of Aebyrnis.

[ryancaveney]

Hmmm, that depends how easily you level up, and whether you take the view that memories and therefore class levels fade

That's literally the only reason I don't think *most* Sidhelien have at least a dozen caster levels.


of course given the right stimulation for long enough the elf who has dozed away a millennia might remember the days they fought the goblin hordes single-handed

Given the right stimulation, I think the Sidhelien could field a hundred thousand double-digit-level wizards in a month, against whom nothing could stand.


Well, I don't see the dragons as schemers much either, armour plated fire-breathing engines of destruction not needing to do much scheming when dealing with the lesser races, and not deigning to inform the lessers of the dragons schemes against each other.

I see them as schemers on a truly vast scale. Their description says, "The dragons of Cerilia are an ancient race, predating even elves and dwarves. They once existed in great numbers, but now only a handful live." The reason for that is IMO given a few paragraphs later: "they warred incessantly among themselves." As part of that incessant warfare, I think they *created* most of the intelligent races on the planet, or at least uplifted them (in the David Brin sense) from normal animals. They did this, in part, as a kind of *experimental sociology*, creating thinking species with a variety of different characteristics, to see what kinds of different social organizations would emerge and how they would interact.

More on this in a separate post, since the original version of this one was too long.


And the 1-2 centuries of experience with humans wouldn't count for much in my view - not when you have 10-20 millennia of experience of 'evil tree killing thugs = dim and incapble of concerted action' stuck in your mind, it could easily take centuries for the old ways to be forsaken and the elves to take on new tactics wholesale - about the time it took to turn the tides in the years between the original waves of immigration and Deismaar...

Where do you get dim and incapable? Cerilian goblins are rated "Intelligence: Low to High (8-14)", which is really no different than humans; actually, since the range shown averages to 12, they may even be *more* intelligent than humans, but I won't swear to that because I can't presently find my copy of the 2e Monstrous Manual -- can anyone help out? Furthermore, I think Thurazor is as civilized a realm as Alamie, and the capital of Kal-Kalathor has a higher level than any province on the continent save the Imperial City. I think before Deismaar the goblins were distinctly more civilized than the humans (due to, among other things, long exposure to elven rule), and at present they still compare favorably to a number of human realms.


So why learn to make deep plots to foil them? Only after the elves see how the humans work together and create elabourate civilisations, and still breed like rabbits should they truly being learning to out-scheme them...

And I maintain it is the dragons they learned to out-scheme, and that standard was so high that they are now well past the ability of any other species to thwart effectively.


Hmm Azrai was the subtle god - he would be quite capable of appearing to the elves as a forest spirit intent on turning the humans against each other, or as an elf showing the 'weaknesses' of the hmuans so that the elves could defeat them... Why have them know he is one of the human gods? It only harms his cause...

I think they're even more subtle than he was. I think they noticed he was approaching the goblins, gnolls and Vos, and then they opened the way for him to come to them, thinking he was corrupting them when in fact they were suckering him into a deal he'd have realized was too good to be true, had they offered it to him openly. =)


Ryan

[ryancaveney]

In my own view of the prehistory of Aebrynis, the Sidhelien -- as elemental nature spirits -- have existed as long as life itself. However, they never bothered to take physical form until about fifty thousand years ago, when the dragons arrived from another planet. They were fleeing an interstellar war with some of the other powerful, magical races (illithids and neogi, particularly), and sought an (apparently) uninhabited planet as a refuge. Many of the Sidhelien, curious about the new arrivals, embodied themselves in forms familiar to the dragons as allies (elves and giants from some other D&D world) to interact with them; the others retreated into the wilderness or left for the elemental planes.

Fearing pursuit, one of the first things the dragons did was to create a servitor race whose members would be loyal, good fighters, servants and craftsmen, live in natural fortifications and be highly resistant to magic and damage: in other words, the dwarves. The reason dwarves are "twice as dense as other creatures" with skin that is "gray, stony, and cold to the touch", take only half damage from blunt impact and "can carry amazing burdens" is that the elves, curious to see what would happen, helped the dragons mold the Awakened minds of fierce burrowing animals into animated stone bodies and made it possible for them to breed normally.

The dragons were delighted with their new creations, but the Sidhelien were not happy with the slavery the dragons forced upon the dwarves, even though the dwarves had been specifically engineered not to mind very much. Therefore, when after a few thousand years the feared invasion did not materialize, and the dragons got bored and started playing with uplifting other races, the elves refused to help, and kicked them off of the continent of first contact (Cerilia) while freeing the dwarves to stay behind in their beloved mountains. The dragons went mainly to Aduria, where over the next several millennia they gradually created goblins, gnolls, orogs, humans, and any other wierd D&D sentient-monster race you've ever felt like putting somewhere on Aebrynis (I favor yuan-ti, kenku, wemics, firenewts and thri-kreen), who get lumped into the general category of "beast-men". Why did the dragons bother? In order to have subjects to command and be worshipped by, and use as armies to fight the other dragons (as the threat of external invasion faded from memory, all the old internecine struggles reappeared with a vengeance). This much of the truth is old enough that even the Sidhelien don't remember it anymore -- all the ones currently awake on-planet are the great-grandchildren and later descendants of the original spirits, but somewhere there are a few sleepers who might be awakenable by a sufficiently epic quest.

Note well "be worshipped by." I think that Anduiras, Azrai and the rest were nothing more than seven of the most powerful dragons. I think Deismaar was the climactic battle of the last great war between these and other dragons, using their pet human and humanoid tribes as pawns. The "gods" the humans saw take form were these dragons, each a far more accomplished wizard than any dragon currently living, who had spent centuries convincing the gullible humans that they were the beings the primitive tribesmen worshipped. This was particularly easy given that humans had never seen magic before, and the dragons taught it to some of their favorites to spread and cement their influence -- this is the original source of all non-Sidhelien (i.e., priest and wizard) magic. What the ancient humans who served with the dragons' armies that day actually saw were the dragons in the forms they had learned the humans would expect; the one playing Azrai had a particularly easy time, as what shepherd could honestly say that a winged serpent 750 feet long, casting spells that wiped out whole regiments in the blink of an eye, was not a god? All told, there were about a hundred dragons in the battle on each side; "Anduiras" and friends were a loose coalition formed to oppose "Azrai"'s ever-growing thirst for control, while their opponents were the rulers of "the decadent southern empires" described in the humans' oldest myths. The Adurian dragons mostly fought in their natural forms, since the god they claimed to represent was the lord of serpents, but their opponents used human seemings (gigantic ones, for the six famous names) during the battle to avoid further spooking their troops or drawing friendly fire.

The dragons' human servants on both sides now had a problem: the mundanes had seen their gods *die*. Luckily, they had been fighting each other at the time, and the destruction was vast enough that the dazed and wounded surviving normals never figured out that *all* the gods were polymorphed dragons. The mages who had been the dragons' agents inside the various human priesthoods recognized the utility of their former masters' method of religious rule, and found a way to preserve their own power: they managed to convince the thunderstruck tribesmen that some of their most beloved chieftains had been elevated to godhood in the cataclysm, and that those chieftains wanted their people to continue to follow them in preference to mortal rulers. Without their patrons to back them up, this was a difficult pretense to maintain, but among the Rjurik and Vos it worked well enough to take permanent hold; theocracy faded among the other human cultures, but religion at large remained strong. The elves all know the truth of it, but almost no humans believe them, and none who do is foolish enough to say so in public and be stoned to death for heresy.

I freely admit this is highly idiosyncratic, but since I have taken pains not to violate anything presented as a rule (indeed, I've worked hard to *justify* the some of the rules by adding appropriate metaphysics), but only the Atlas, which is clearly in-character text and is generally considered to contain many inaccuracies and distortions, I claim that my view is just as consistent with the Birthright boxed set as anyone else's. I actually wrote almost all of the above in 1997, within a few months of opening the boxed set, about a year before joining this mailing list. I don't talk about it much around here, though, because it is so far from the mainstream that I want to keep its wierdness from influencing people's reactions to my comments about more conventional topics. The fact that it has inspired some of my favorite ideas I've ever had (some of which are reproduced above) is one of the things that keeps me so interested in Cerilia after so long.


Ryan

[Elton Robb]

It's your version of Birthright. No body should judge you for being wrong. All of us interpret the Events at Mount Diesmaar in different ways, Ryan. Including myself. If you think you are far out in Left Field, wait until you hear my explanation as to what happened.

:)

[ryancaveney]

Hmm. This has gone off topic.

As is the nature of all good threads. =)


Anyway, to keep with the Elf theme. IMC, the elves are biding their time. Even though the Anuirean Empire is in ruins and they have many perfect opportunities to strike; Roubhe and the Gorgon seem to balance them out in Anuire.

Why do you think Rhoubhe Manslayer would want to oppose elven hegemony? I think he'd be eager to help achieve it.


So, really, Kenneth Gauck's Elvish Plan leaves out the Magian.

Actually, he has shared only the part concentrated on Anuire. There should clearly be similar plans for all the other regions; he just hasn't posted them yet. ;)


As a 20th level Awnshegh Lich, he knows all the Realm Spells there is to know on the Arcane Side. The Magian can let loose plagues, the forces of nature, summon undead units (possibly from the Shadow World), misdirect attacking forces, and cause mighty battle magic.

With this I agree completely.


He can annihilate the armies of Rhaunnach and Cwm Bein using Realm Magic. Then he and his undead forces can just walk right over the Elvish Realms. After cowing the Elves into submission, of course.

With this, however, I disagree completely. I think the elves can match him in magic might. Even if he is individually more powerful than any of them (and that I doubt), there are so many more of them than him, and caster level is so unimportant to realm magic anyway, that the elves working together could quite readily hold him off. Therefore, since he would know that too, he would not move against them until his realm was much, much stronger. In fact, I think he (and the Raven) chose the location of his realm where he did precisely in order to be as far away from Rhoubhe, Siebharrin and Llaeddra as possible.


The Magey then would expand through Khinasi and Vosgaard; using his mighty magic to cow the Vos and the Khinasi. He may even use the Raven in his expansionistic plan.

I long ago convinced myself that el-Sirad and el-Sheighul are two of his Riders in disguise, and so is one of the unnamed Red Kings of Aftane. I'm still not yet sure whether the Raven is also, or whether he was supposed to do what the Magian is working on, but messed it up, so the Magian was sent to replace him. Both of them, IMO, have come from the Shadow World as agents of the Cold Rider to conquer it for her (I'll have to post some of my wild theories about her, too, I think...). If the Raven isn't one of the Magian's Riders, then he's just having fun on the other side of the Evanescence from his boss, and will be in deep trouble if she wins. The Magian wants the Cold Rider's help in taking out the elves, but also wants to arrange it so that when that happens, he can close the Evanescence against her forever, and rule this side of Aebrynis without a superior he has to obey.


So, your Elvish plan isn't totally infalliable. There are too many variables to account with. The Magian being one example of these.

As I see it, he (and his boss, the Cold Rider, whose daily struggle is in the Shadow World against Rhuobhe) is the *only* threat to the elvish plan. No one else can really get strong enough to matter. The human, goblin, and other petty mortal rulers exist only as long as one of the two main power players think they might be useful in the one real contest of strength. The other awnsheghlien are just speedbumps to the big guys; only the Gorgon and the Serpent are even worth considering -- but Gorgy is already surrounded by elves who could crush him if he bothered them, and the Serpent will always be outmatched by the Magian. Actually, I could see the Sidhelien talking the Gorgon into working for them for a while, just like they did his old boss, Azrai.


And there is always a chance that their agents might betray them for the good of Anuire or Khinasi.

Ah, that's the beauty of really high-level charm magic and really entertaining lifestyles. I don't think they can, nor at this point do they even want to. They have been so thoroughly brainwashed that they think delivering the humans into the waiting hands of the elves *is* the highest good they can bring to Anuire or Khinasi.


No doubt Illuminati exists in the BIRTHRIGHT Campaign Setting. Groups planning not to take over just Cerilia, but the rest of Aebyrnis.

Well, clearly, IMO, the Sidhelien and the Magian are the major ones. Other groups with that goal are either merely pawns of one of the two real powers, or foolish humans who have absolutely no idea just how deep the rabbit hole goes and just how utterly doomed their feeble plans are.


Ryan

[kgauck]

The other awnsheghlien are just speedbumps to the big guys; only the Gorgon and the Serpent are even worth considering -- but Gorgy is already surrounded by elves who could crush him if he bothered them.
As I was devising my plan, I wondered about the dwarves. I left them out because the dwarves are too friendly with the humans to get involved in the sidhe plan to conquer/exterminate them. But not so the abominations. The Gorgon especially is not only surrounded by elves, but also by dwarves, and if the plan to eliminate the Gorgon started early enough, the dwarves would be willing to participate. No one constitutes a threat to the dwarves like the Gorgon does. He raises orog armies, he dominates one dwarven realm already, and menaces two others seriously.

The dwarves would go into it as part of a grand campaign of humans, elves, and dwarves against the Gorgon, suspicious of both the humans and elves, but determined that this is a thing that must be done and willing to participate. The Gorgon's crown once cleared of abomination(s) would not interest the elves, and the dwarves might very well consider this place someplace to "recover" just as much as the elves look at the much larger expance of Cerilia.

However, at some point I think the dwarves would recoil from the sidhe plot and return to their mountains confident that their suspicions were always justified and no one can be trusted but a dwarf. Of course they won't regret their role in the destruction of the Gorgon (or the Chimera), as these were neccesary acts, even if they had to cooperate with the genocidal elves.

[Thelandrin]

I've moved these posts because the thread topic is now a completely seperate one to Magicians' spell lists!

[irdeggman]

Now that actually fits canon very well - after Deismaar we are told the gods agreed not to interefere directly (Eloele cheats I think), indicating that they did so before Deismaar - possibly quite often (although that would suggest half-breeds should have been prevalent).



There is a much more significant "cheater".

Rournil and his relationship with Suris Enlien and the founding of Meodoere.

I found the text that I was thinking of that talks about what the pact "really" said. I think this is the only actual text that mentions the "pact of the new gods". If someone finds something more, please point it out.

BR Campaign Setting pg 73

“Despite these rifts, all the gods of the new pantheon have held fast to one firm pact: Never again shall the gods battle each other in physical form.

[ShadowMoon]

Ryancaveney I am glad that some of the community tries to go backward in BR lore, and devise stories to fill all those gaps and blurry areas...

Your "prehistoric" Cerilia is similar to what I used in my campaign; old gods being powerful dragons, and dwarves being created by dragons, major difference is that in my campaign dragons didn't arrived from another planet/dimension, etc.
Dragons were the primal elemental creatures that were the "builders" of the world. According the Sidhe legends about the "old world" when shadow world and daylight where one, gods were created and they sought to establish order within the world and bind it by laws (so they could control it and rule it), except the Azrai who preferred the ever-changing and utterly unpredictable chaos (from AD&D BR: Blood Spawn). In my campaign these true dragons were Anduiras, Reynir, Brenna, Basaia, Vorynn, Azrai, and Moradin (I tend to ignore most of that planar Muppet show which was used mostly to bring all CS together so one CS fan could waste money on other and still remain “faithful” to their preffered CS ^^.
Sie (they were mentioned in AD&D BR: Blood Spawn) were spirits, first intelligent creatures in the world, like a sentient manifestation of Gaea, they didn't possessed individual thought back then, nor permanent material form. True Dragons created Giants to help them shape the world, but Azrai wanted the world to remain in its original pure chaos, so he created his "working" force to counter his brothers (or to remedy their doing since he was not evil), so he created Dragons (present day cerilian dragons).
Azrai never forgave his brothers for the, by his opinion, destroying of the world, and hurting him because since all "gods" were bound to some of the aspects of the world (portfolios), this sundering almost destroyed him since he was bound by the very chaos they sought to banish. He channelled all of his strength and power into preserving the world as it was, and in the shaping of the world, he tried to counter his kin but failed again and again for other "gods" were equally powerful and he couldn't stand against their combined might. So he decided to work with them in the shaping of the new world, but secretly he started preparing his plan, using dragons, secret chaos nods, to weaken the shaping and create enough energy to preserve the original world and himself. Many of the Sie joined Azrai in this secret mission. When final Shaping took the place, Azrai and his allies used all his resources and power to create enough energy to shelter the old world, but it was still not enough, and tremendous energies ripped his essence almost destroying him utterly, but enabling him to turn this energy into enough power to preserve the original flow. After splitting the world on Shadow World and Daylight, Sie split on Seelie and Sidhe and awakened their individualities, and since Sidhe remained in the Daylight, that was stable and material, they gained premanent physical form. Old gods seeing that they almost destroyed one of their own, their brother, they felt so sad and ashamed, that they used their own essence to restore him, and they helped him find his place in the new world among them as equal. As Azrai regained his power he regained his memories of their betrayal and his pain, and his grief for the lost world, for he didn’t knew then that his “sacrifice” in the end managed to preserve the old flow. But soon he begun to feel faint echoes of the original flow, his link with the preserved domain of chaos started to awaken, so while he ruled the new world with his kin, he ruled the old chaos domain alone and his power grew unchallenged for his brothers were not aware of its existence. That’s why Azrai grew to become the most powerful of the “gods” and even their combined might couldn’t stand against him in the end. He turned against them out of revenge, and because since they created the new world, their destruction would help him to restore the world as it was in the beginning, to merge both worlds back. So he started weakening the creation by manipulating the world against the other "gods" and spawning "evil" creatures like goblins, gnolls, orogs, etc. Well what happened afterwards is more or less evident for the present scholars ^^;

Heh, this is the shortest version I can come up with about the world’s creation and gods… I know it is not the cannon, but I was especially careful to incorporate all BR lore I am aware of ^^;

PS: I know its off topic, plz don't hold it against me, I just couldn't resist it...

[Thelandrin]

I think that a generic mythology/magic/anthropophobia thread is very hard to track off track!

[Elton Robb]

Yes. That's true. I was trying to figure out the reason for them doing that, and apparently, that's because Yin and Yang had to be satisfied at the battle of Mount Deismaar.

In my Birthright, the original Gods are Eternal Beings. Meaning that they cannot be destroyed, but they can change from one 'form' to another. When they divested Azrai, they had to divest themselves as well. They all changed Azrai from a God with a physical body to one with a Spirit Body. And in so doing, they also changed themselves.

But because Justice had to be satisfied, the Gods exalted Haelyn and Company to be Gods over their sphere. The only difference is: Andurias, Masela, Basaia, Brenna, Reynir, and Vorynn are going through the cycle of Mortality again. Azrai, however, is cut off and so banished to exist the rest of his days as a spirit. His eventual fate is one of Darkness.

So, Azrai wanders the world as an accusing spirit; both in the Shadow World and on Cerilia. He's the Cold Rider: although he isn't allowed to kill. He can do things subtly. So therefore, as the Cold Rider he is very much the symbol of very bad luck.

As for Magic itself, that's different. The reason why the others were exalted in their place is because of Balance. To maintain the Balance after the Gods divested themselves of their Godhood, they had to elevate the New Gods. Haelyn, Avani, Erik, Ruornil, Sera, Kreisha, Belinik, and Nesirie were exalted to take the place of Andurias, Basaia, Reynir, Vorynn, Brenna, Azrai, and Masela in order to preserve the Balance.

According to Elven Mysticism, when Cerilian Dragons and Elves die, they are reborn as stars (this is stated in Greatheart). So, in my BR, it wasn't Dragons that took the form of Gods or were worshipped as Gods. Or during the Battle, the Manslayer didn't slay Azrai. The other Gods just divested him of his body and powers; and in so doing also divested themselves. So, Azrai is very powerless and cannot be reborn, so he wanders Aebyrnis as the Cold Rider and an Accuser of man's deeds.

[ShadowMoon]

I just made a quick review of PS Medoere, and nothing there could be taken as serious breach of the gods agreement.

Sure Ruornil guided Brun Szareh, sure Ruornil's avatar manifested before Suris Enlien, sure divine power helped in battle at Tieren Pass, but visions could occur to the faithful, there are even spells for that, avatars were explained in BR rulebook, and while cerilian gods are loath to interfere in mortal doings it is said that they can manifest on the world, and who can say that this "avatar" was not part of the vision/communion. And finally divine intervention at the Tieren Pass, could be well described as a Divine Realm Spell. So I see no breaking of the Gods agreement not to interfere directly.

...

[cccpxepoj]

According to Elven Mysticism, when Cerilian Dragons and Elves die, they are reborn as stars (this is stated in Greatheart). So, in my BR, it wasn't Dragons that took the form of Gods or were worshipped as Gods. Or during the Battle, the Manslayer didn't slay Azrai. The other Gods just divested him of his body and powers; and in so doing also divested themselves. So, Azrai is very powerless and cannot be reborn, so he wanders Aebyrnis as the Cold Rider and an Accuser of man's deeds.

nice ! it gives the world that dark medieval Christian flavor even more .

[irdeggman]

So I see no breaking of the Gods agreement not to interfere directly.

...

Looking back over the material (as I qouted earlier), I don' t think this was the "pact". I think it is a commone interpretation that all of us have maintained over the years, but not what the text actually said.

It looks like all they said was to no longer take physical form to battle each other.

So this makes things a lot different, IMO.

I still don't like the idea of the gods leading the troops against the elves in physical form - it detracts from the epic feel of what happened at Deismaar to me. I say thiis because you would have had everyone of the original deities participating (except for Azrai - who had not chosen people).


Sort of a mini-Deismaar if you will.

[ryancaveney]

I say thiis because you would have had everyone of the original deities participating (except for Azrai - who had not chosen people).

He may not have had any chosen humans, but what about the goblins, gnolls, orogs and other beastmen? Another idea that a number of people have suggested is that Azrai *did* have his own tribe of humans (perhaps the "decadent southern empires"), but they stayed in Aduria and Cerilian humans don't like to think about them. The Magian is sometimes said to be one of their descendants.


I still don't like the idea of the gods leading the troops against the elves in physical form - it detracts from the epic feel of what happened at Deismaar to me. Sort of a mini-Deismaar if you will.

That's part of why I like it. I prefer to see Deismaar as the last and greatest of these battles, the climax and culmination of thousands of years of intermittent struggle, rather than something that just happened suddenly out of the blue.


Ryan

[RaspK_FOG]

Without an outlook, the DM can't build a setting. The outlook has to belong to the the DM. Hence it cannot be in error. Divergent from canon, or conventional setting interpretation, sure, but not in error.Quoted For Truth

What I meant is: "is in the outlook one has;" since, yes, I do know one outlook or another is needed (curse my dyslexia).

In fact, if one were to make a realistic setting, each race and province should have a modifier to the levels of all their people; hence, a magocratic society would have higher "magic-user" levels, as do the Sidhelien (for having the ability to cast such spells in the first place, as well as their age), but the canon suggests that VERY FEW Sidhelien of the olden times are still alive; that is not a design flaw, it's a common mythical element - the age of legend is nearly past, and we can either regain such glory or be lost in the void.

Even so, I believe that the elven immortality should be reflected by slightly greater levels in any case, but the truly great heroes should be even rarer, yet much more powerful than those of humans (e.g. Ruobhe Manslayer, who, as correctly pointed out in another thread, should be a 21st-level character)!

[irdeggman]

He may not have had any chosen humans, but what about the goblins, gnolls, orogs and other beastmen? Another idea that a number of people have suggested is that Azrai *did* have his own tribe of humans (perhaps the "decadent southern empires"), but they stayed in Aduria and Cerilian humans don't like to think about them. The Magian is sometimes said to be one of their descendants.

The humanoids had their own deities.

Kartathok was the deity for the goblinoids, Yeenoghu was the gnolls, etc. (all listed on pg 80 of the BR Campaign setting book).

As far as what happened in the Southern Continent - well that is wide open for individual interpretation (and was left so by design).

So Azrai could have indeed had his own "tribe" of humans, but none on Cerillia. So it really a moot point since he would have had no "tribe" to align himself with against the elves during the human-elf wars in Cerillia. As far as I can tell the elves never migrated to Aduria since humans and elves first encounterd each other after the migration.

There was text (I believe under the Magian and/Raven) in Blood enemies and something in Blood Spawn about Azrai teaching the first humans to use magic well before Deismaar and how he got his "disciples" from there.



That's part of why I like it. I prefer to see Deismaar as the last and greatest of these battles, the climax and culmination of thousands of years of intermittent struggle, rather than something that just happened suddenly out of the blue.

That I guess is somewhere we will never agree due to preference.

[ShadowMoon]

Yes but Vos became Azrai people, since they turned from their patron Vorynn. And still Goblin, Orog, and Gnoll gods could and probably did allied themselves with Azrai.

[AndrewTall]

Azrai was also followed by large numbers of Anuireans (under Raesene) and Masetians (under the serpent) in addition to the Vos. Add in the beast-men, Adurian Vos, remnants of the 5 tribes who stayed in Aduria and other Adurians commanded by the Lost and I'd give him a major size advantage.

And while I agree the gods shouldn't have fought each in physical form other much, to retain Deismaar as special, the gods taking form to lead the humans against the elves involves gods fighting elves only - Azrai would not have fought for the elves (or anyone else). To me the big thing about Deismaar was that for the first time the gods fought on both sides - and their death-toll and the general destruction is what changed the way they interact in the world...

Frankly once the gods realise that they can die if slain in mortal form, the whole game changes for them - some elves and awnsheghlien would give an avatar a run for its money, and possess the touch of godhood that might be necessary to inflict a killing blow on a god...

btw. The Magian gained a bloodline only recently per his write up - why would he know all the realm spells just a few years after being able to cast them? I removed the 'recent bloodline' thing myself but canon suggests he should only be just be beginning to experiment with simple realm spells (and the gods help those he chooses as tutors!)

[Elton Robb]

That is a question you need to take up with Rich or Ed. I have no idea, only know what Blood Enemies states (the Magian knows all Arcane Realm Spells).

[Thelandrin]

Well, besides the Magian, the only other 20th-level wizard in all of Cerilia is the ghost Sidhelien ruler of Sideath. Chances are that the Magian certainly knows a couple!

[Beruin]

I haven't yet run this campaign in its full glory, because I haven't yet found the right party: bloodthirsty wargamers who want to both conquer the world and all play tree-hugging elves. In other words, people just like me.

If distance wasn't an issue, you could definitely count me in.
Seriously, Ryan and Kenneth, you two should get together and convince WotC to publish "The Elven March to Wurld Domination" as its next 500+ pages super-adventure. I for one would surely buy it:D



You have just one elf in your campaign? How's that working out?


To my mind, quite good. Our campaign is set in Tuornen and Maechlawoan the elf PC is the daughter of Braedonnal Tuare. Obviously, she's firmly part of the 10% faction of your ratios. However, she grew up with her mother, a staunch follower of Rhuobhe. After a serious argument with her mother - probably after a particular bloody raid on humans - Maechlawoan left Rhuobhe's domain in search of her father and so came to Tuornen.
In play, she often stays aloof from her human companions, especially when these start bickering, and she often seems slightly annoyed when other players do something she regards as stupid. I guess this results in part from the player's personality, not just role-playing, but imho it fits her role quite good.
IMC, she has recently heard the rumours that Braedonnal sometimes rides up to Rhuobhe's domain alone and she wonders what this is about. I mainly introduced this and the family split between human-friends and human-haters as possible adventure hooks, with the intention of elaborating on this when I run the sword&crown adventure, but had not really thought this out yet, so you have really provided some great ideas. I will obviously change some details - for instance, only a few older elves will know about the true events at Deismaar and regard this as a closely guarded secret - but a lot of your ideas fit nearly perfectly in my campaign.

[Gman]

Well, besides the Magian, the only other 20th-level wizard in all of Cerilia is the ghost Sidhelien ruler of Sideath. !

I was wondering when the elflovers would pull out their most powerful wizard - who in his mortification at destroying so many huggable tree's has been planning for the last Millenia how to reforest not only his beloved Sideath but ALL OF CERILIA! The unstoppable march of the trees.

Think no crops, no arrable land for the humans - no cities no roads just endless trees ahhhh. things restored to how they should be.

[ConjurerDragon]

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> AndrewTall wrote:
> ...
> And while I agree the gods shouldn`t have fought each in physical form other much, to retain Deismaar as special, the gods taking form to lead the humans against the elves involves gods fighting elves only - Azrai would not have fought for the elves (or anyone else). To me the big thing about Deismaar was that for the first time the gods fought on both sides - and their death-toll and the general destruction is what changed the way they interact in the world...
>
> Frankly once the gods realise that they can die if slain in mortal form, the whole game changes for them - some elves and awnsheghlien would give an avatar a run for its money, and possess the touch of godhood that might be necessary to inflict a killing blow on a god...
>
> btw. The Magian gained a bloodline only recently per his write up - why would he know all the realm spells just a few years after being able to cast them? I removed the `recent bloodline` thing myself but canon suggests he should only be just be beginning to experiment with simple realm spells (and the gods help those he chooses as tutors!)
>
Another option would be that he regained a bloodline. If the Magian
really is a lich, then he lost his original bloodline when he died and
had to gain a new one.

About the gods and their mortal forms - I see Deismaar as more than just
the gods avatars being slain and the gods dying. In my view avatars
supported the human cause all the time before Deismaar and the
destruction of an avatar only temporarily disables it. At Deismaar the
gods themselves showed up in their true form to die.

[ryancaveney]

how to reforest not only his beloved Sideath

It is still completely forested. It just doesn't have any animals, which is a problem for the health of the ecosystem.


ALL OF CERILIA! The unstoppable march of the trees. Think no crops, no arrable land for the humans - no cities no roads just endless trees ahhhh. things restored to how they should be.

That is exactly what I would like to see, and had in mind before Siebharrin first appeared in PS Tuarhievel. I like to imagine the trees doing a lot of the killing themselves, improving the quality of the soil under their roots. This is why I like Gary's latest ehrshegh so much!


Ryan

[Elton Robb]

I truly don't know if it would work. Man's psychology is all about bringing order to nature. Hmm. I wonder what would happen if the Imperial City became an Urban Forest? If men started planting trees in their yards; if the Sources of Mebhaighl would be repowered.

If you come to Salt Lake City, and look out in some places, you'd wonder why there are so many trees in such an Urban jungle. Anyway, to get back to the Insidious Elven Illuminati (That's all we need, a Darth Sidious running things in one of the Tuars) there are a couple of other loose cannons besides the Magian (who is Birthright's version of Darth Sidious). :)

The Sword Mage is one particular loose cannon. Gavin Tael can't control "it." The Sword Mage has built a reputation around "it" that allows it to do what "it" wants, despite being Lawful Evil. So, if the Sword Mage perceives an Elvish Illuminati threat, "it" can respond immediately.

[ryancaveney]

I truly don't know if it would work. Man's psychology is all about bringing order to nature. Hmm. I wonder what would happen if the Imperial City became an Urban Forest? If men started planting trees in their yards; if the Sources of Mebhaighl would be repowered.

What makes you think there will be a place for humans in the new Sidhelien order? There's no point in bringing back the forests if they're just going to be chopped down again. Humans need to have their psychology changed in order to make them compatible with the resurgent forest (i.e., they need to be changed into half-elves), or they need to be exterminated. All the other species need to be handled similarly. The dwarves are the only ones who might be left as they are, in that they like to live in places where trees don't grow; but if they want to murder trees in order to heat their metal forges, they too will need to be dealt with. The only place for "live and let live" in the Sidhelien reconquest is "humans only get to live so long as they let every tree live; if they cause a tree to die, so too shall they die." The fact that the Sidhelien think this way is why I like Cerilia so much. No nicey-nicey fairies here! Instead, they are implacable embodiments of nature's wrath. Visualize an alternate version of LoTR in which Galadriel takes the ring when Frodo offers it, and extend the destruction by the Huorns of the orcs fleeing Helm's Deep to all of Middle Earth, and you'll grasp what I think the elves of Cerilia have in mind.


The Sword Mage is one particular loose cannon. Gavin Tael can't control "it." The Sword Mage has built a reputation around "it" that allows it to do what "it" wants, despite being Lawful Evil. So, if the Sword Mage perceives an Elvish Illuminati threat, "it" can respond immediately.

Respond yes, but not very effectively. Every non-elf will put up the best struggle they can against the elven juggernaut, but the Magian is the only one with anything like a real chance of success, and that's only if he's got the Cold Rider's active support. If it's just him, even if he allies with the Raven, the Gorgon and the Serpent (and the alliance lasts more than five minutes), then he's still going down. The reason is that powerful as he is, he and his riders are just thirteen powerful individuals. The elves have thousands who can stand up to that power. With standard D&D rules, no human army can possibly stand against elven spellcasting might, so conventional weapons just don't matter. The only real contest is nuclear (magic versus magic). If you don't like that, then the magic rules have to change, and then the Magian himself gets a lot less powerful, too.


Ryan