new dwarven/elven units

[cccpxepoj]

i am thinking that dwarven and elven units are too small in numbers.I mean dwarfs have no scouts and no artillerist.The greatest race of builders should know how to destroy a fortification.

[cccpxepoj]

anyone who have any kind of idea just press reply.thanks in advance :)

[cccpxepoj]

i used in one of my campaign a unit of dwarven engineers. they had a weak armor and weak fighting abilities but their purpose was to make temporal fortifications,bridges...... quickly.

[ryancaveney]

i used in one of my campaign a unit of dwarven engineers

They should also be very good at destroying fortifications, especially by tunneling under them to bring down the walls.


Ryan

[kgauck]

Dwarves should also have scouts, but their advantages are in mountain, hill, and other rocky terrain, not forests per se.

Dwarven scouts acting as guerrillas can harras any hostile force in their mountains.

[cccpxepoj]

They should also be very good at destroying fortifications, especially by tunneling under them to bring down the walls.


Ryan

my point also

[cccpxepoj]

Dwarves should also have scouts, but their advantages are in mountain, hill, and other rocky terrain, not forests per se.

Dwarven scouts acting as guerrillas can harras any hostile force in their mountains.

but how to make unit of scouts that is only good in the mountains( using birthright 3.E. rules )

[kgauck]

Are we talking about units or individuals?

[cccpxepoj]

units, individuals are not so problematic(i played a dwarf ranger once:) )

[AndrewTall]

I've been playing recently with new units types for a 2e game I'm in (Rjurik Winds) - I'm looking at balancing out the cost at the moment.

Currently I've avoided a dwarven scouting unit - dwarves in my view might have a few hunters/poachers (the classic scouts) but not many - although I would given them the ability to spy on those in their domain to represent spy posts. Similarly it's hard to get dwarven cavalry given their build and density. Dwarven battleragers, elite infantry, pike, artillery and militia are potentially good units - all self explanatory I would expect.

To make a dwarven scout unit that you describe I'd say 'ignore terrain: hills, mountains, snow' that way they can move quickly at home but are slowed as normal units by swamp and forest. Give them better armour than normal scouts, but reduce their speed to 2. I can't recall if it was canon or not but I recall a dwarven miner / sapper unit that could tunnel across battlefields to appear in a chosen square without warning that could also scout.


For elves you already have quite a few units in canon - archers infantry cavalry and knights (gheallie sidhe) from the main set, spearmen and flying hunt from khinasi. You might add a very swift scout unit, and I added a construct unit to give them some canon fodder. For Innishiere adding some half elf or human units such as pike, infantry, elite infantry, etc sounds reasonable. If you want to get excited a forest-giant unit could be interesting as could a centaur unit.

[cccpxepoj]

To make a dwarven scout unit that you describe I'd say 'ignore terrain: hills, mountains, snow' that way they can move quickly at home but are slowed as normal units by swamp and forest. Give them better armour than normal scouts, but reduce their speed to 2. I can't recall if it was canon or not but I recall a dwarven miner / sapper unit that could tunnel across battlefields to appear in a chosen square without warning that could also scout.




like the dwarfs miners in the warhammer

[cccpxepoj]

For elves you already have quite a few units in canon - archers infantry cavalry and knights (gheallie sidhe) from the main set, spearmen and flying hunt from khinasi. You might add a very swift scout unit, and I added a construct unit to give them some canon fodder. For Innishiere adding some half elf or human units such as pike, infantry, elite infantry, etc sounds reasonable. If you want to get excited a forest-giant unit could be interesting as could a centaur unit.

yes you are right , there is no greater need for new type of elven units,there is plenty of them described in the 2nd E. but the dwarfs are in much worse situation.

[RaspK_FOG]

I would think that dwarves have sentries guarding passages rather than scouts; think fighter, ranger, and/or rogue characters geared towards that sort of thing.

On the matter of special units, I believe dwarves would have excellent sappers, and that drafted units might also have some capability at sapping (mind you, dwarves do get a bonus when working with stone); I also agree that dwarves should not have that many artillery units, if any at all: after all, when your keeps are the mountains and the underground, what need do you have of any artillery?

The main issue, really, is that there is very little room to justify proper mechanics to employ racial affinities. I mean, you can't expect to have too many elven units, but weak ones should be rather deadly compared to those of other races (since elves are proficient with the longsword and with bows).

[cccpxepoj]

I would think that dwarves have sentries guarding passages rather than scouts; think fighter, ranger, and/or rogue characters geared towards that sort of thing.

On the matter of special units, I believe dwarves would have excellent sappers, and that drafted units might also have some capability at sapping (mind you, dwarves do get a bonus when working with stone); I also agree that dwarves should not have that many artillery units, if any at all: after all, when your keeps are the mountains and the underground, what need do you have of any artillery?

The main issue, really, is that there is very little room to justify proper mechanics to employ racial affinities. I mean, you can't expect to have too many elven units, but weak ones should be rather deadly compared to those of other races (since elves are proficient with the longsword and with bows).

dwarfs may have no need for artillery in their homeground, but for the wars against other races....

[magecraft]

Neither Elves or Dwarves should have militia type units, these units only work for those races that breed like rabbits.

I would go for a Elven scout type unit to be raised for a milita unit and a Dwarven Craftsman unit. Both as hard a most units but with special abilities.

[AndrewTall]

Neither Elves or Dwarves should have militia type units, these units only work for those races that breed like rabbits.

I would go for a Elven scout type unit to be raised for a militia unit and a Dwarven Craftsman unit. Both as hard a most units but with special abilities.

Militia is a relative term and means simply that the unit raised from standard citizens and is not made of regular soldiers, I would use levies for the goblinoid races (and created a unit called goblin rabble to show just how abysmal a unit can be...)

I would say that Dwarven militia would have slightly lighter armour than standard units, a greater range of weapons (often tools pressed into service) lower morale (they aren't seasoned troops), etc. I built them as about the equal of human regular units, but with a fairly even spread across melee/defense/charge.

[cccpxepoj]

Neither Elves or Dwarves should have militia type units, these units only work for those races that breed like rabbits.

in the secrets of baruk-azik page 13, "on average, dwarf couples tend to produce four children. 5% of couples have no children, while up to the 10% have 8 children ....."
So i must disagree with you,if this is a low birthrate then what is high?
Look for the present statistics in Europe and North America of haw many children is born.

[kgauck]

An average of 4 births spread over 400 years would still be a pretty low birth rate.

[AndrewTall]

in the secrets of baruk-azik page 13, "on average, dwarf couples tend to produce four children. 5% of couples have no children, while up to the 10% have 8 children ....."
So i must disagree with you,if this is a low birthrate then what is high?
Look for the present statistics in Europe and North America of haw many children is born.

Looking back in family tree 8-12 seems to have been fairly common, many did not live to adulthood but large families were the norm.

Cerilian families may be lower due to reduced childhood mortality (cure minor wounds will save most children from accidents, remove disease may only be available in the larger towns but will save others) or higher due to reduced deah in childbirth (cure minor wounds again).

A dwarf couple having 1 child every 50 years (25 if exuberant) simply doesn't compare to a human couple having 10 children every twenty years -the simple view says that in 100 years you get 2 new dwarves compared to the humans who make 50, but this ignores the geometric increase - the offspring themselves have multiple offspring...

So assuming 50% childhood mortality for humans with a 20 year maturation rate, and then 8 children in the average family you get:

A1 begets B1-8.
B1-10 suffer 50% childhood casualties but each survivor begets 8 i.e. C1-40
C1-40 suffer 50% childhood casualties but each survivor begets 8 i.e. D1-160
D1-160 suffer 50% childhood casualties but each survivor begets 8 i.e. E1-640
E1-640 suffers 50% childhood casualties but each survivor begets 8 i.e. F1-2560

This is an obvious gross simplification but shows why the goblinoid races drove back the elves and dwarves...

You have to seriously increase the mortality rate and assume substantial famines, death in childbirth, etc in order to constrain a goblinoid population - which is how the priests really won the war against the elves - by healing women during and after childbirth and boosting harvests (healing soldiers is pretty irrelevant - they are surplus males and unnecessary for population growth)...

[cccpxepoj]

Looking back in family tree 8-12 seems to have been fairly common, many did not live to adulthood but large families were the norm.

Cerilian families may be lower due to reduced childhood mortality (cure minor wounds will save most children from accidents, remove disease may only be available in the larger towns but will save others) or higher due to reduced deah in childbirth (cure minor wounds again).

A dwarf couple having 1 child every 50 years (25 if exuberant) simply doesn't compare to a human couple having 10 children every twenty years -the simple view says that in 100 years you get 2 new dwarves compared to the humans who make 50, but this ignores the geometric increase - the offspring themselves have multiple offspring...

So assuming 50% childhood mortality for humans with a 20 year maturation rate, and then 8 children in the average family you get:

A1 begets B1-8.
B1-10 suffer 50% childhood casualties but each survivor begets 8 i.e. C1-40
C1-40 suffer 50% childhood casualties but each survivor begets 8 i.e. D1-160
D1-160 suffer 50% childhood casualties but each survivor begets 8 i.e. E1-640
E1-640 suffers 50% childhood casualties but each survivor begets 8 i.e. F1-2560

This is an obvious gross simplification but shows why the goblinoid races drove back the elves and dwarves...

You have to seriously increase the mortality rate and assume substantial famines, death in childbirth, etc in order to constrain a goblinoid population - which is how the priests really won the war against the elves - by healing women during and after childbirth and boosting harvests (healing soldiers is pretty irrelevant - they are surplus males and unnecessary for population growth)...
the book also says that dwarfs can have more children but they do not want to disturb a natural balance of their homeground . But with the rising orog treat the more children is encouraged.

[ShadowMoon]

If DMs use 3rd E D&D event regarding dwarves, Moradin's Thunder Blessing, that says that dwarven cultures throughout multiverse had a boon of population (Thunder Twins), and that Moradin's Blessing awoke sorcery in dwarven blood, You will have to adjust dwarven population in BR too.

[Jaleela]

If DMs use 3rd E D&D event regarding dwarves, Moradin's Thunder Blessing, that says that dwarven cultures throughout multiverse had a boon of population (Thunder Twins), and that Moradin's Blessing awoke sorcery in dwarven blood, You will have to adjust dwarven population in BR too.

Actually, according to every edition of D&D I've read, no DM is obliged to use any rule, if it doesn't suit them. The game is essentiually a set of guidelines and game mechanics, and DM's have always been encouraged to use their own imagination and judgment in which rules to apply, ignore, or invent on their own.

Thus, if spellcasting dwarves do not suit the campaign, then the DM can say 'no spellcasting dwarves', and if a population boom does not suit the campaign storyline, then one is not obliged to adjust the dwarven population. ;)

[cccpxepoj]

i think that we all went a little of the topic here, this thread is about dwarven unts not population, even thing are connected.

[MatanThunder]

:D

Does anyone here know how to stat some of these units out in ol 2nd ed???

I especially like the idea of battle ragers in the mix. Dwarven Sapper units could undermine fortifications in a short period too.

Then how about spriggan dwarvish units....the forces of the Gorgon see a unit of dwarves moving towards them and start laughing and heckling them derisively from behind their walls. Then suddenly the force seems to be getting bigger and bigger, then the walls don't seem quite a secure.

The bladesingers are being missed in the elven forces too, even if there may only one unit (not enough bladesingers) in Cerilia. There are also the chance of Avariel units (flying elves). It could be quite a unit too.....flying elvish archers raining death from on high. Sowing destruction on enemy armies without ever coming in range of anything short of a fireball. Quite a unit.

Later

:cool:

[cccpxepoj]

:D

Does anyone here know how to stat some of these units out in ol 2nd ed???

I especially like the idea of battle ragers in the mix. Dwarven Sapper units could undermine fortifications in a short period too.

Then how about spriggan dwarvish units....the forces of the Gorgon see a unit of dwarves moving towards them and start laughing and heckling them derisively from behind their walls. Then suddenly the force seems to be getting bigger and bigger, then the walls don't seem quite a secure.

The bladesingers are being missed in the elven forces too, even if there may only one unit (not enough bladesingers) in Cerilia. There are also the chance of Avariel units (flying elves). It could be quite a unit too.....flying elvish archers raining death from on high. Sowing destruction on enemy armies without ever coming in range of anything short of a fireball. Quite a unit.

Later

:cool:

now that is some high fantasy battles :cool:

[ryancaveney]

There are also the chance of Avariel units (flying elves). It could be quite a unit too... flying elvish archers raining death from on high.

Canon BR doesn't have winged elves, but it does have flying elven combat units. In particular, Innishiere has more than a hundred elven knights with flying steeds (Cities of the Sun), and Rhoubhe Manslayer has a contingent of air cavalry mounted on griffons, hippogriffs and giant eagles (Sword and Crown). Given the Sidhelien preeminence in magic, spells like Mass Fly should definitely exist, and I think every elven realm should have enough flight-enabling magic items in its armories to equip a few units. However, far more devastating than a whole unit of flying archers is *one* flying high-level wizard, especially if invisible, and elven realms should be able to field many of these when threatened.


Ryan

[MatanThunder]

:rolleyes:


Canon BR doesn't have winged elves, but it does have flying elven combat units. In particular, Innishiere has more than a hundred elven knights with flying steeds (Cities of the Sun), and Rhoubhe Manslayer has a contingent of air cavalry mounted on griffons, hippogriffs and giant eagles (Sword and Crown). Given the Sidhelien preeminence in magic, spells like Mass Fly should definitely exist, and I think every elven realm should have enough flight-enabling magic items in its armories to equip a few units. However, far more devastating than a whole unit of flying archers is *one* flying high-level wizard, especially if invisible, and elven realms should be able to field many of these when threatened.

Not to be flip since I know that normal Cerilian Elfstock is not the norm, (but may be a parent stock), but compared with these units you describe......would the Cerillian Avariel be that much more over the top?

Especially in light of that uber wizard flying artillery piece???

Later

:rolleyes:

[cccpxepoj]

people just imagine the advance of elven army, traveling trough land,sky even a shadow world and all that followed whit thunder,lightning.......
ok i need to rest :)

[cccpxepoj]

cccpxepoj schrieb:
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
> http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=3853
> cccpxepoj wrote:
> people just imagine the advance of elven army, traveling trough land,sky even a shadow world and all that followed whit thunder,lightning.......
> ok i need to rest :)
>
The sidhelien have lost and are a retreating race in a continent
formerly theirs.

IMO an army as you describe it is unfitting for the Birthright setting
after the human-sidhelien wars. Novels are not canon - but I do like the
novel "Greatheart" in that it describes the sidhelien of the Sielwode as
mourning every *single* dead sidhelien as an immortal gone forever.
Losing a dozen sidhelien is a major loss and even the thought of several
companies of sidhelien destroyed in a war would be unimaginable as would
a large army such as you describe. Vietcong guerilla warfare from hiding
to attempt to prevent the unnecessary loss of any immortal life.

Or another picture that would fit Birthright: The last alliance of elves
and men of Gondor marching against Sauron - the whole army is as small
as former armys vanguards.

I have not read that book( yet! ), but i imagine that army in some colossal battle like mount deismar.