Conversion - What about the Gorgon? [Archive]

spehar

03-13-2002, 03:45 AM

Merely a first draft. Never been double checked, even by me. I'm almost to the point whre I can double check my work on awnshgh guide I'm making. It's a lot harder then I though on some of them. Tell me what you think.

Gorgon

Large-Size 16th/14th-level Fighter/Wizard
Monstrous Humanoid True Awnshegh (Evil, Lawful)
Hit Dice: 30d12 + 160 (346 hps)
Initiative: +4 (+4 Improved Init)
Speed: 20 ft.
AC: 36 (- 1 size, +8 natural armor, +5 half-plate Kingstopper, +5 large shield A Gentle Word)
Attacks: +5 tighmaevril greatsword Lifender +41/+36/+31/+26/+21+16
Damage: +5 tighmaevril greatsword Lifender 2d6 +14
Face/Reach: 5 ft. by 5 ft. / 5 ft.
Special Attacks:
Spells: (4, 5, 5, 5, 5, 3, 3, 2)
Gaze Attack: By concentrating for one full round on an opponent, the Gorgon can cause his target to turn to stone (Fortitude save verse DC 27) or cause him to fall dead (Fortitude save verse DC 25). If the victim is within 30 feet the DC is increased by +2. The maximum range the gaze can be delivered is 100 feet.
Kick (Ex): The Gorgon can deliver a powerful kick to those foolish enough to stand behind him. This special kick is delivered as a free action, but it can only be taken once per round. While performing this action the Gorgon gets no dexterity bonus, if applicable. Kick + 27 melee, damage 2d6 +2.
Weapon Mastery (Ex): The Gorgon is proficient, skill focused, and specialized in all known weapons.
Special Qualities:
Damage Reduction 20 / +3, Fast Healing 8, Low-light and Darkvision (60 feet),
Spell Resistance 20, Blood Abilities: Bloodform (Great) Long Life (Great), Berserker's Blood (Great), Battlewise (Major), Charm Aura (Major), Major Resistance [poison] (Major), Heightened Ability (Minor), Enhanced Sense (Minor), Detect Illusion (Minor), Bloodmark (Minor) No longer visible.
Saves: Fort +19, Ref +9, Will +17
Abilities: Str 20, Dex 10, Con 20, Int 19, Wis 16, Cha 15, Blo 50+
Skills: The Gorgon has many skills considered to be 30+.
Feats: Alertness, Blindfight, Blooded Scion, Battle Magic, Cleave, Combat Casting, Endurance, Expertise, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical: greatsword, Improved Disarm, Improved Initiative, Improved Trip, Iron Will, Great Fortitude, Leadership, Mounted Combat, Power Attack, Quick Draw, Ride-by Attack, Spirited Charge, Sunder, Run, Toughness, Trample, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wondrous Item, Forge Ring, Still Casting
Challenge Rating: 35
Possessions: +5 tighmaevril greatsword Lifender, +5 half-plate Kingstopper, +5 large shield A Gentle Word

Mark_Aurel

03-23-2002, 04:24 PM

A CR of 35 might be a tad high; compare him to a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon, which arguably has a CR that's too low.

Temujin

03-23-2002, 10:11 PM

Am I the only one that noticed that challenge ratings tend to be way too low for most creatures? If you consider the fact that each class level gives 1 point of CR, a human fighter 6 or barbarian 6 would thus be CR 6, but a minotaur, which has about as many hp & attack power, only has a CR of 4. And don't even get me started on the toughest creatures out there: Solar, with a CR of 19? be serious. Heck, its a wonder why the great wyrms(red, silver & gold in particular) don't have challenge rating of 35-40...

I really wish someone would have the patience to revamp the CR system.

Mark_Aurel

03-23-2002, 10:40 PM

CR isn't an exact science. That said, it is clearly based on character levels - i.e. a character of a given level poses a certain level of challenge to a set group of characters of the same levels. The CR system in the MM assumes access to certain resources and a certain level of magic by level; if this is not the case, CRs need adjustment. Facing undead without a cleric is rough, to use the most common example.

As for the specific example you quote, a minotaur against a 6th-level character - the 6th-level character is significantly tougher.

Minotaur: hp 39, AC 14, +9/+4 attack (2d8+4)
Fighter: hp 49, AC 22, +11/+6 attack (1d10+5)
Barbarian: hp 50, AC 18, +11/+6 attack (1d12+4)
Raging Barbarian: hp 62, AC 16, +13/+8 attack (1d12+7)

From those numbers alone, a 6th-level barbarian or fighter would best a standard minotaur. When you also add in the fact that the characters will have some additional magic items and other abilities and feats that the minotaur does not, their versatility increases even more.

Note that for a single character of a given level, a CR of the same level is a much higher EL, making it basically a 50-50 chance for either to survive.

For a barbarian or fighter party, a minotaur _might_ have a higher CR, because they must deal with it on its own terms. For a primarily wizardly party, it might have a lower effective CR. A rogue would have some extra difficulties dealing with minotaurs, due to their immunity to being flat-footed and relatively good listen and spot scores, along with scent.

In general, though, a minotaur doesn't strike me as much more than a CR of 4, when you compare it to what characters of that level can do - a 4th-level barbarian compares well to a minotaur, as does an intelligently played fighter. Just remember that the equipment these characters possess is a part of their CR as well.

In BR, due to the lower frequency of magical items, strange things happen to CRs at higher levels. A balor would be a greater challenge in BR than most worlds, for instance.

Temujin

03-25-2002, 07:30 AM

Yes, its true that your average fighter or barbarian of level 6 will beat the minotaur. But even then, unless he's exceptionally strong or lucky, there's very little chance of him successfully handling two of them, yet, technically speaking, two minotaurs are worth the same xp-wise as a character of that level. I'd bet my dough on a minotaur facing a single level 4 or 5 character all the way, unless the character is exceptionally strong, that's for sure.
But, even if we assume that a minotaur is as strong as your average level 4 character, something to which I disagree, but that is pointless to argue on, then comes the following question:
Why in hell is a Minotaur fighter 1 PC treated as a level 9 character(See DMG p. 22) while a Minotaur fighter 1 monster gets treated as a character level 5 CR-wise? Its a bit ridiculous don't you think?

And I'd like to say that this is an exception that proves the rule, but unfortunately, the Monstrous Manual is riddled with creatures who should have higher CRs, and on the other hand, you have these over-inflated averaged level for PC monsters which kinda makes the whole situation a bit ridiculous, even though I understand it was done on one hand to slow down the PC progression rate at mid-to-high levels, and on the other to disuade them from taking unusual races as characters.

I realize I shouldn't expect a perfect system, but I was hoping for a little more consistency ;)

Mark_Aurel

03-25-2002, 08:04 AM

For a fighter-type character, a minotaur probably has a higher effective CR, because the minotaur's abilities are so close to the fighter's own, thus leaving the fighter with a minimal advantage. A 6th-level fighter would probably not be able to handle two minotaurs on his own; one of 7th or 8th level might.

Don't make the mistake of mixing CR and ECL - one is for balancing encounters against a party, the other is for intra-party balance. Let's quickly examine the minotaur's stats a bit:

+8 str, +4 con, -4 int, -2 cha, Large size (10 foot reach), 6d8 HD, +5 natural armor, +6 BAB, some misc racial bonuses that aren't insignificant.

At first glance, the minotaur should be at least +6 ECL - anything else would be ludicrous, and would grant a BAB and save progression that is beyond what is normally possible. Further, as a fighter-type, the minotaur gains significant additional bonuses. Assuming a standard spread, its ability scores might look thus:

Str 23, Dex 14, Con 17, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 6. HD 6d8+1d10+21 (58 hp)

Let's check its further combat potential: Buy weapon focus (greatsword), power attack as feats. Skills doesn't really matter, though the character has very nice bonuses to very powerful skills.

Now, let's don a chain shirt, and put on a large shield. That's +6 AC. Add in the natural armor and the dex bonus, and you get +13 AC, -1 size. AC 22. And he does 2d6+6 damage, at 10' reach, at an attack bonus of +13/+8 or so.

This doesn't necessarily look like a 9th-level character ... yet. Remember the character's other abilities, like Scent and natural cunning - essentially, he gets most of the benefits of uncanny dodge for free. Then consider the further minmax potential inherent in such a high natural strength and constitution.

Would such a character have an effectiveness on par with a 9th-level fighter, even though he's only 1st level? Yes, in most cases. That is as a PC creature, however, and not as a monster. You need to consider the impact that huge strength bonus has over the term of a campaign. It doesn't matter how many spell-like abilities a balor has if it dies in a single encounter. It _does_ matter if those come into play in every single encounter the PCs _ever_ face. Same thing with the big minotaur strength bonus.

The natural next line of inquiry would be a comparison with ogres, who are even stronger. The big differences: Dexterity penalty, fewer HD, far lower BAB (+3), no extra bonuses (scent, senses, cunning, charge).

The bottom line is: Don't confuse CR with ECL.

goblin_khan

03-28-2002, 04:26 PM

Well i think that inside Doom's conversion they add the Dexterity bonus to Raesene's half - plate's armor bonus.Does the King's Stopper preserve the Dexterity bonus in the total AC , despite the fact that is considered a half-plate ?

Mark_Aurel

03-28-2002, 04:46 PM

As far as I recall, half-plate has a maximum dex bonus of +0; you could chalk it down to either an error, make it a special property of the armor, or consider it full plate instead.

Oqlanth

08-27-2002, 03:45 PM

i think Gorgon must be higher than 30 or 33 levels total.3e charcter re higher level than 2nd edition.(For example Elminster)
25F/18w and one or two low level prestige class will be good i think.He is major villain and MUST be Extraordinry strong

Sir Justine

08-27-2002, 04:33 PM

The problem I find when converting the Gorgon is: he has more than 20 levels, which is the maximun the rules admit. Of course there are the epic rules, but I'm not certain if I like they, especially in a more low-fantasy cenario such as Birthright. For pcs I certainly will NOT use then: I mean, do you really need more than 20 levels??? At level 20 an character is over, ultra, hyper, mega strong - a 20 level fighter can destroy an entire army alone! More than this and, IMO, it pass from heroic fantasy to trash. (I know it's not original to say, but this is one of the motives I don't like Forgotten)
Maybe for the awsheglien, however I will use the epic rules - (the Gorgon has been around for ~1500 years, more than any human can even dream off). But I'm still deciding.

Ariadne

08-28-2002, 01:01 PM

Orginally posted by Sir Justine

For pcs I certainly will NOT use then: I mean, do you really need more than 20 levels???
You don't have the epic level handbook, do you? There is ALWAYS something to top 20 HDs. In this book are presented monsters with lots of unknown abilities (something like a displacer beast with initiative +27) and a huge amount of HPs. In front of an aberation with CR 57 even the gorgon looks like a fool!

The gods for example have about 50 to 70 HD, an AC of 69 to 96, ca. 1500 HP and their lowest (of 5) attacks is about +86! You see, a 20 HD character has not the lightest chance against one of them!

Orginally posted by Sir Justine

(I know it's not original to say, but this is one of the motives I don't like Forgotten).
In this point you are right. To many high level characters destroy the flair. You are still nothing, if you have "only" 15 HDs. That's why I don't like FR too.

Orginally posted by Sir Justine

Maybe for the awsheglien, however I will use the epic rules - (the Gorgon has been around for ~1500 years, more than any human can even dream off).
Here you should be more fair! If you use epic rules for awnsheglien, you should use them for ersheglien, npc's and pc's too (By the way, the gorgon isn't the only creature, that is 1500 years old). Further Cerilia needs a character with more than 20 HDs to get rid of these awnsheglien utterly! To play a character to 20th level ore more might be difficult, but should not be impossible!

Birthright-L

08-28-2002, 06:24 PM

On Wed, 28 Aug 2002, Ariadne wrote:
> The gods for example have about 50 to 70 HD, an AC of 69 to 96, ca.
> 1500 HP and their lowest (of 5) attacks is about +86! You see, a 20 HD
> character has not the lightest chance against one of them!

Nor should they. Nor should anyone. Gods aren`t just big powerful
monsters. They shouldn`t really have stats. They just Are. This post
seems to indicate that you think gods should be huntable and killable by
PCs. That`s a travesty.

I don`t really have a problem with >20th level characters, but calling
them `Epic` is just pompous, or maybe good marketing by WotC. The book of
that name is munchkinism run amuck. If your characters are getting to
that level, it`s straightforward to project out the experience table,
which is linear, and BAB, saving throws, feat acquisition etc can be
projected for characters who haven`t multiclassed into a prestige class or
another base class by then. But by 20th level, if the character has a
PrC, he has 30 total levels he can gain before you have to start worrying
about that (20 original class, 10 new class), and if he`s multiclassed, 40
or even hypothetically more.

Leave the Epic level handbook on the shelf, and use it to compensate when
playing in FR, which has been a broken novelized setting from the get-go;
major action takes place in novels featuring non-rules-compliant
characters, and then they try to retcon Elminster et al back into the
rules with things like the ELH. In BR, action happens around the PCs, low
level or not, not the pet characters of TSR/Wizards authors.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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marcum uth mather

08-29-2002, 12:50 AM

The good thing about the birthright god are they started out mortal. While they all made the pact not to apear in there mortel, er, imortal flesh it would be easy to see were they would. The Vos gods especialy woudn't play by the rules and would try to act in person when ever they could( Vos not being known for being subtl) any whay i do think it sould be posible to kill a God. Even in good'old 2ed, if you used planescape rules you could kill a god, though it was hard( realy, realy hard:p ) Lets not forget the serpent, or the mighty gorgon. Two of the most feard beings on the planet. they are constently colecting bloodlines and gaining power. My bet is they want to eventualy gain godhood. Howmuch godly esence did the new gods get to gain divinety? The serpent is already granting spells to his followers. To bring it all back, no matter what level of blood points you have you are going to need exp too. the gorgon and the serpent sould have at lest 30 levels each to work with. If a DM wants to do things right. he awards exp for roleplaying more then hack and slash. Look how much these two guys plot, and for how long, they sould have tons of exp. It sould take a uber champion to ever face these guys, or if your goal is political to be empeor. it sould take at lest someone above 20 to do ether of these things.

Sir Justine

08-31-2002, 05:44 AM

I agree that there are very powerful npc's, like the Gorgon, the Serpent, the Kraken (mama mia, this is invencible!)...
But, as marcum himself said these are, or are at least very close, to gods.
But I think that mortals should not have that level of power. Otherwise, IMO you only get something like this: CR 30 monster for a level 30 party, CR 40 monster for a level 40 party... This is Diablo, not Birthright.
Like in The Lord of the Rings - Aragorn and company are very powerful, but the balrog is simply another level of power...

And, IMO, pcs should be heroes, and as such they must do things against the odds. If they are as powerful as the Gorgon is, it isn't that special to kill him.

kgauck

08-31-2002, 03:18 PM

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sir Justine" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 12:44 AM

> I agree that there are very powerful npc`s, like the Gorgon, the Serpent,
> the Kraken (mama mia, this is invencible!)...
> But, as marcum himself said these are, or are at least very close, to
gods.

AFAIC, the most powerful abominations are still a long way from the power of
gods.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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Sir Justine

09-01-2002, 05:17 PM

hum... what's "AFAIC" :P ?

Do you think they are so far from the gods? The Gorgon has a bloodline of 100, if you think in means of % (how much of your blood, or essence, or whatever is divine), he's in some way, all divine, or in other words, IMO close to the gods.

kgauck

09-01-2002, 09:35 PM

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sir Justine" <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG>
Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 12:17 PM

> Sir Justine wrote:
> hum... what`s "AFAIC" :P ?

As Far As I Am Concerned

> Do you think they are so far from the gods? The Gorgon has
> a bloodline of 100, if you think in means of % (how much of
> your blood, or essence, or whatever is divine), he`s in some
> way, all divine, or in other words, IMO close to the gods.

I don`t think the score is a percentage. I think that if I totalled up all
the An bloodlines in Cerilia, I`d then be in the ballpark of Andurias` own
effective bloodline score. What would remain is how much was lost do the
entropy-like loss of transfer. Using only published sources, and limiting
myself to Anuire, counting on one member of a family (just the Mhor, not
Shaene, Micheal, or Savane), I count no less than 973 points of Andurias.
What fraction went to Haelyn, and what fraction to his followers. If a
third went to Haelyn, and a third went to his followers, and a third was
lost. Anduriras had between 3000 and 15000 points of blood power. Haelyn
would have 1000 to 5000 points. That is a guess just to put the thing into
a ballpark. Maybe Andurias gave Haelyn 95% of his power, and gave the other
5% to his followers. That means that follwers have 1000-5000 and Haelyn has
20,000 +.

Or in other words, not the same ballpark, not even the same sport. ;-)

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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Birthright-L

09-01-2002, 11:10 PM

On Sun, 1 Sep 2002, Kenneth Gauck wrote:
> > Do you think they are so far from the gods? The Gorgon has
> > a bloodline of 100, if you think in means of % (how much of
> > your blood, or essence, or whatever is divine), he`s in some
> > way, all divine, or in other words, IMO close to the gods.
>
> I don`t think the score is a percentage. I think that if I totalled up all
> the An bloodlines in Cerilia, I`d then be in the ballpark of Andurias` own
> effective bloodline score. What would remain is how much was lost do the
> entropy-like loss of transfer. Using only published sources, and limiting
> myself to Anuire, counting on one member of a family (just the Mhor, not
> Shaene, Micheal, or Savane), I count no less than 973 points of Andurias.
> What fraction went to Haelyn, and what fraction to his followers. If a
> third went to Haelyn, and a third went to his followers, and a third was
> lost. Anduriras had between 3000 and 15000 points of blood power. Haelyn
> would have 1000 to 5000 points. That is a guess just to put the thing into
> a ballpark. Maybe Andurias gave Haelyn 95% of his power, and gave the other
> 5% to his followers. That means that follwers have 1000-5000 and Haelyn has
> 20,000 +.
>
> Or in other words, not the same ballpark, not even the same sport. ;-)

I think it`s stated somewhere that Raesene`s bloodline, 100+, was
sufficient to transcend him to divinty, except his single-minded focus on
the world and the Anuirean Empire kept him grounded. So Haelyn, Avani et
al don`t need a 20k+ bloodline, a couple of hundred would do.
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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marcum uth mather

09-01-2002, 11:28 PM

all im sayimg is if for some reason I get a carector to 30th level, AND kill the gorgon and take all his blood, AND kill a few more scions just for fun, I sould be able to rip a demigod apart and take his folio. Or at least challeng a god and hold my own. with all that devin essence i sould be at least demi god status.( by the way my carectors are no were near ANY of this level;)

Sir Justine

09-02-2002, 12:47 AM

One thing I find important to notice is that the birthright avatars aren't as powerful as avatars from other worlds. For the greater gods they were 20º level or 20 hd monsters, for the intermediate 18º level and for the lesser gods 16º level. It's was really possible to defeat them, unlike avatars from other campaigns (Dragonlance avatars had about 40 levels, and Forgotten pfff...).
I mean, all the scale of power is smaller in Birthright, from the npcs to the gods.

kgauck

09-02-2002, 02:24 AM

----- Original Message -----
From: "daniel mcsorley" <mcsorley@CIS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 5:35 PM

> I think it`s stated somewhere that Raesene`s bloodline, 100+, was
> sufficient to transcend him to divinty, except his single-minded focus on
> the world and the Anuirean Empire kept him grounded. So Haelyn, Avani et
> al don`t need a 20k+ bloodline, a couple of hundred would do.

How seriously you take that line depends on several things.
1) How do you regard the idea that gods are just the highest level
characters in the milieu?
2)How do you regard assention to godhood.

From my point of view, gods aren`t just really high level characters any
more than I am a very powerful mouse. I view gods as being much closer to
omnipotance than D&D normally does.

marcum uth mather wrote:
> all im sayimg is if for some reason I get a carector to 30th level,
> AND kill the gorgon and take all his blood, AND kill a few more
> scions just for fun, I sould be able to rip a demigod apart and take
> his folio. Or at least challeng a god and hold my own. with all that
> devin essence i sould be at least demi god status.( by the way my
> carectors are no were near ANY of this level;)

Too many readings of the Odyssey prevent me from believeing that Odysseus
was ever going be able to defeat Posideon in any combat. Even the heros of
the golden age, sons of Apollo, Zeus, and other gods, never could have
displaced one of the Olympians. The best they could hope for was that mommy
or daddy would get them turned into a constellation or made into an immortal
(not neccesarily a god, just an immortal who could hang out with the gods).
Herakles was made immortal, what divine actions did he go on to take? How
is this any difference from the hero worship of the dark ages where someone
as mundane as Orestes was venerated?

Sir Justine wrote:
> One thing I find important to notice is that the birthright avatars
> aren`t as powerful as avatars from other worlds. For the greater
> gods they were 20º level or 20 hd monsters, for the intermediate
> 18º level and for the lesser gods 16º level. It`s was really possible
> to defeat them, unlike avatars from other campaigns (Dragonlance
> avatars had about 40 levels, and Forgotten pfff...).

But what is an avatar? What does it mean to defeat an avatar? Do gods have
meaningful stats? I don`t think so. Take strength. Doesn`t every god have
the capacity to topple a castle? Some may appear to push it over Samson
style, others will cast bolts from their outstretched hands, still others
will smath the ground with their staff, then the castle falls over. Its a
matter of style not power. Give the us the style information, and we don`t
need stats. Gods possess power orders of magnitude beyond practical human
comprehension.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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Trithemius

09-02-2002, 08:05 AM

Daniel McSorley:
> I think it`s stated somewhere that Raesene`s bloodline, 100+,
> was sufficient to transcend him to divinty, except his
> single-minded focus on the world and the Anuirean Empire kept
> him grounded. So Haelyn, Avani et al don`t need a 20k+
> bloodline, a couple of hundred would do.

Personally, I think that this is silly.

Sorry, I don`t really have any thing to elucidate about this point - I
just think that if the Gorgon could be a god he would be and he`d then
use that power to lay to waste his enemies in fine style. Ol` Stonebutt
isn`t exactly stupid afterall.

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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Trithemius

09-02-2002, 08:05 AM

Kenneth:
<snip!>
> Gods possess power orders of magnitude beyond practical human
comprehension.

Testify brother!

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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Trithemius

09-02-2002, 08:05 AM

marcum uth mather:
> all im sayimg is if for some reason I get a carector to 30th
> level, AND kill the gorgon and take all his blood, AND kill a
> few more scions just for fun, I sould be able to rip a
> demigod apart and take his folio. Or at least challeng a god
> and hold my own. with all that devin essence i sould be at
> least demi god status.( by the way my carectors are no were
> near ANY of this level;)

It is astounding that I can have a view about this that is so different
from your own.

I consider deities to have something that makes them simply greater than
mortals - even powerful mortals like Stonebutt Himself. The existing
deities can ennoble a mortal and make him into a god, but a mortal can`t
do it themselves.

To me it is very important that deities and mortals are distinct from
each other (see earlier posts about this on the BR-L).

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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geeman

09-02-2002, 08:46 AM

At 06:56 PM 9/2/2002 +1200, John Machin wrote:

>Daniel McSorley:
> > I think it`s stated somewhere that Raesene`s bloodline, 100+,
> > was sufficient to transcend him to divinty, except his
> > single-minded focus on the world and the Anuirean Empire kept
> > him grounded. So Haelyn, Avani et al don`t need a 20k+
> > bloodline, a couple of hundred would do.
>
>Personally, I think that this is silly.
>
>Sorry, I don`t really have any thing to elucidate about this point - I
>just think that if the Gorgon could be a god he would be and he`d then use
>that power to lay to waste his enemies in fine style. Ol` Stonebutt isn`t
>exactly stupid afterall.

I don`t recall it saying anywhere that the Gorgon`s bloodline was
sufficient for him to become a deity. In fact, I seem to recall the
opposite. A couple of points:

1. We don`t know that the Gorgon`s bloodline was in the triple digits after
Deismaar. In fact, it probably wasn`t. Other true bloodlines are lower
than his, and in certain cases (most notably the Serpent) even those
characters have made strides towards a divine status.

2. A bloodline of 100+ is a good place to start in a bid towards
transcendence. After all, the same energies that made the human inheritors
of the gods` divine power is what created bloodlines. It`s the same stuff,
so wouldn`t rising one`s bloodline be a way to achieve godhood? A
bloodline of 100+ seems like a good starting point for certain characters
who are trying to ascend.

3. A 100+ bloodline, however, should not be the only requirement for
transcendence. First of all, the Gorgon is around as powerful as a few
other D&D characters (Iuz, Elminister) who are described variously as
demi-gods or rivalling that sort of power, so character levels aren`t
really a problem for him, but that should be some sort of requirement for a
mortal.

4. The humans who became gods at Deismaar took on the exact same aspects of
the gods that perished, so they didn`t have any need to find a
role/niche/portfolio or whatever. Any human who transcends is going to
have to define his/er place in the pantheon. The Gorgon hasn`t really done
this (neither has the Serpent) though various interpretations could apply.

5. Tasks. There has to be a series of specific and epic tasks on the path
to divinity. I`ve always liked the idea that Raesene`s task was to sit on
the Iron Throne.

In reference to the Gorgon transcending if he could and then using that
power to lay waste to his enemies, I don`t think that really adds up for
several reasons.

First, the process of transcending for the Gorgon would itself probably
represent laying waste to his enemies. If he`s still got enough enemies
running around by the time he transcends then the process probably wasn`t
as epic as all that.

Second, if the Gorgon could transcend and THEN decided to lay waste to
Cerilia that`s the kind of thing that brought the gods together in alliance
against Azrai. That would make a pretty interesting epic level campaign
hook, but if the Gorgon is so smart that he would transcend as a way to
gain the power needed to wipe out his enemies, he`d probably have to know
from his own experience that it would line up the gods against him, so he`d
have to not only transcend, but transcend to such a level of divine power
that he could take the rest of the pantheon on as well.

Gary

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geeman

09-02-2002, 08:46 AM

At 07:01 PM 9/2/2002 +1200, John Machin wrote:

>I consider deities to have something that makes them simply greater than
>mortals - even powerful mortals like Stonebutt Himself. The existing
>deities can ennoble a mortal and make him into a god, but a mortal can`t
>do it themselves.
>
>To me it is very important that deities and mortals are distinct from
>each other (see earlier posts about this on the BR-L).

It`s fine to go with this sort of thing and base your play on it. The
campaign setting, however, isn`t quite so extreme. The current gods, of
course, were extremely high level humans before Deismaar who
transcended. Granted, there was something of a shortcut in the divinity
route, but nonetheless they are transcendent mortals. The major BR gods
are certainly more powerful than mortals, but I think that`s rather missing
the point being made. It`s not whether mortals can take on those gods, but
whether mortals after accomplishing great deeds can eventually take on a
divine creature at the lower end of that scale and become divine himself.

Using the bloodline system of BR also inherently interferes with the
distinction between mortals and humans. BR scions have divine power
already and the means to improve their divine power. That`s more than
other campaign settings (or real life mythology) presupposes.

Gary

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Ariadne

09-02-2002, 09:46 AM

Originally posted by Birthright-L

Nor should they. Nor should anyone. Gods aren`t just big powerful monsters. They shouldn`t really have stats. They just Are. This post seems to indicate that you think gods should be huntable and killable by PCs. That`s a travesty.
I don't think, gods are killable monsters. It was JUST an example of unkillable creatures!!!

Originally posted by Sir Justine

One thing I find important to notice is that the birthright avatars aren't as powerful as avatars from other worlds. For the greater gods they were 20º level or 20 hd monsters, for the intermediate 18º level and for the lesser gods 16º level.
Yes, in 2nd Edition their Avatars are less powerful than others. Might be because of the low level world and the fact, that most were mortal once...

Originally posted by kgauck

Maybe Andurias gave Haelyn 95% of his power, and gave the other 5% to his followers. That means that follwers have 1000-5000 and Haelyn has 20,000 +.
Wow, if a god has a child with a mortal (used to exist sometimes, see Zeus), it must have an incredible bloodline!!!

Ummm, who is Stonebutt??

We seem to have the same opinion in one thing: The gorgon is NO god (may be he tries, but he isn't actually).

So I think, he IS killable (but you need a 30th level party, I fear).

Azrai

09-02-2002, 08:10 PM

I think the bloodline-points for gods is a wrong concept- gods should not have any bloodline.

the bloodpower is the essence which derivated from the gods.

Trithemius

09-03-2002, 05:41 PM

> Ummm, who is Stonebutt??

Stonebutt is a colloquial term for the Gorgon, that is to say `the Black
Prince Raesene Andu`.

It refers to his... er.... Stony Butt ;)

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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kgauck

09-03-2002, 05:41 PM

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary" <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET>
Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 3:27 AM

> Using the bloodline system of BR also inherently interferes with the
> distinction between mortals and humans. BR scions have divine power
> already and the means to improve their divine power. That`s more than
> other campaign settings (or real life mythology) presupposes.

Not any more than the ability to cast spells, recieve visions (or several
other dooms), or to know secrets of the univserse does. The difference is
based on being the source and the vessel for these powers. Its one thing to
cast spells or emloy a bloodline, its quite another to hand out these
powers.

As for real life mythologies and bloodpowers. I see that whole blood system
as being nothing more than a quantification of, and mechanization of the
beliefs in most pre-modern cultures with states.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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Birthright-L

09-03-2002, 05:41 PM

On Mon, 2 Sep 2002, John Machin wrote:
> > Ummm, who is Stonebutt??
>
> Stonebutt is a colloquial term for the Gorgon, that is to say `the Black
> Prince Raesene Andu`.
>
> It refers to his... er.... Stony Butt ;)

Yeah? And what were you doing checking out his Divine Posterior?
--
Communication is possible only between equals.
Daniel McSorley- mcsorley@cis.ohio-state.edu

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geeman

09-03-2002, 05:41 PM

At 09:43 AM 9/2/2002 -0500, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

> > Using the bloodline system of BR also inherently interferes with the
> > distinction between mortals and humans. BR scions have divine power
> > already and the means to improve their divine power. That`s more than
> > other campaign settings (or real life mythology) presupposes.
>
>Not any more than the ability to cast spells, recieve visions (or several
>other dooms), or to know secrets of the univserse does. The difference is
>based on being the source and the vessel for these powers. Its one thing to
>cast spells or emloy a bloodline, its quite another to hand out these
>powers.

Bloodline is IMO more significant than those things. For one thing it
grants access to the level at which all of those things (casting spells,
visions/dooms, secrets of the universe) reach a higher order, mostly access
to realm magics. For another, it really does provide a step towards the
nature of divinity. Blood abilities based on the portfolio of the god from
whom the bloodline is derived. Presumably that means the gods all have
powers that are similar to (powered up) versions of the blood abilities, or
that the blood abilities are "powered down" godly abilities. That`s a
direct connection to divinity. There`s also the obvious connection with
divinity and spellcasting in BR; divine spells are granted by divine beings
and high magic is accessible only to elves or blooded characters, which
connects even those abilities with divinity. Lastly, the domain level of
play is a step above those

>As for real life mythologies and bloodpowers. I see that whole blood
>system as being nothing more than a quantification of, and mechanization
>of the beliefs in most pre-modern cultures with states.

Well, that`s a possible interpretation, but I think there are large and
fundamental differences that are significant enough to differentiate the BR
bloodline system from that of real life, mythology, or any other campaign
setting, for that matter. When it gets right down to it, I don`t think the
BR domain rules or bloodline do a very good job at representing the real
world beliefs/systems. That`s largely because they weren`t meant to model
real world paradigms, but the myth history of the campaign setting which
was itself influenced by several works of fantasy fiction and a couple of
movies.

Gary

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