Rheulgard

[Autarkis]

Discussion thread for Rheulgard (http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/index.php/Rheulgard). If you would like to add a comment, click the Post Reply button.

[Magnus Argent]

Does anyone know why the source potential for Rheulgard's forest provinces are so odd? I know there are ways to justify them (maybe underground caverns, maybe something at the bottom of the lake, maybe this, maybe that..) but are they following some obscure rules that I've somehow missed?

Beuraben 0/9
Coulbaraigh 4/3
Deuchlach 2/6
Dezeel 2/5
Endlun 5/2
Eolrab 2/7
Nochlauch 4/4
Podenstahl 5/3
Unbraustadt 4/4
Zedforst 0/9

Pascht 2/7

The Burrows' provinces on the other side of the lakes would all have a max source potential of 7, if not for civilization.

Coulbaraigh (4/3) and Deezel (2/5) both have potential max source ratings of 7 compared to Deuchlach, Nolauch, Podenstahl and Unbraustadt who each would have potential max source level of 8, if not for the trappings of civilization.

Then you have Pascht (2/7) an elven/awnshelien ruler, Beruban (0/9), and Zedforst (0/9)

Also, how did Wohlers and Wahlrud become a (5/0) provinces without any regents? If you look at Rheulean Greencloak's domain holding table, those two provinces are literally listed as having no ruler.

Is Rheulgard just a hot mess of typos or is there more to the story?

[masterdaorin]

Is Rheulgard just a hot mess of typos or is there more to the story?

The latter, I would argue. I find nothing wrong with Rheulgard's realm stats. The realm you should really be focused on for weirdness, if that is what you are concerned about, is the Maze (but that's another thread).

Rheulgard is a typical Brecht realm, from what I can see - and one of the more interesting ones to boot (IMO).

The Coulladaraight Forest is an ancient wood, so everything checks out there. The Brecht tend to huddle into cities, and be more concerned with internal feuds and raids rather than warring with their neighbors, hence their usually slightly higher population values. They are, simply put, slightly more urban than their feudal neighbors (excepting the Khinasi, of course).

The three co-rulers share management of the realm - it could almost be considered a republic (except that it's not). I would assume (and to which I have done so IMC) split the governing of the realm's provinces between the three rulers - all others (such as in the provinces without law holdings) are, in game world terms, loosely controlled by their local nobles, who pay only nominal homage to their lord. In short, Rheulgard is, it seems, perhaps the most "Deutchland" of all the Brecht realms (which is to say, the local Brecht barons owe allegience to no one but themselves, even though there is an "king" in the nearest city).

Is there a specific conundrum you have that I'm missing, Magnus?

[Magnus Argent]

Is there a specific conundrum you have that I'm missing, Magnus?

There are two conundrums that you're missing. The first one is admittedly tricky. I'll attempt to clarify below. The other has to do with the provinces of Wohlers and Wahlrud. I'm not sure how I can restate that issue any more clearly so I'll just ask you to scroll up and reread my previous post.


I find nothing wrong with Rheulgard's realm stats. The realm you should really be focused on for weirdness, if that is what you are concerned about, is the Maze (but that's another thread).

I'd be happy to take a look at the Maze with you.


The three co-rulers share management of the realm - it could almost be considered a republic (except that it's not). I would assume (and to which I have done so IMC) split the governing of the realm's provinces between the three rulers - all others (such as in the provinces without law holdings) are, in game world terms, loosely controlled by their local nobles, who pay only nominal homage to their lord. In short, Rheulgard is, it seems, perhaps the most "Deutchland" of all the Brecht realms (which is to say, the local Brecht barons owe allegience to no one but themselves, even though there is an "king" in the nearest city).

All true. But none of that has anything to do with my question.


Rheulgard is a typical Brecht realm, from what I can see - and one of the more interesting ones to boot (IMO).

The Coulladaraight Forest is an ancient wood, so everything checks out there.

Yes, at first glance it does look like it checks out, doesn't it? But dive in a little deeper.

First of all, I'm talking about "maximum source potential" for a province. Shouldn't Forested provinces have a max source potential of 7 and Ancient Forests a max source potential of 9?

Of course, Rheulgard is a realm populated by humans, so civilization will drive down source potential. But, as I said, there is a (5/3) province, and two (4/4) provinces. If that civilization wasn't there, you'd decrease their province levels to 0 and increase the source potential in equal measure. But, if you do that, you get forested provinces with max source potentials of 8. Not 9. Not 7. 8.

Yes, that's odd. None of the other realms in the Coulladraight have any provinces with max source potential of 8. Coullabhie's provinces, for example, all have a max potential of 7 (forest) or 9 (ancient forest).

In fact, only a small handful of provinces in all of Cerilia are listed as having a max source potential of 8:


Llubraigh has three (1/8) provinces. Since it is an elven realm, civilization doesn't drive source potential down so, RAW says they have a max source potential of 8. However, all three provinces are ancient forests and have 9 levels worth of source holdings. It appears that all of its provinces were calculated as though they were ruled by humans so one could presume they should actually be (1/9) provinces.
The Hydra's provinces are all (0/8), as is the province of Dankmaar in Rjuvik -- but they are all 100% wetland (swamp) provinces.
In all of Cerilia, the only other province I know of that is forested and has a max source potential of 8 is Aykbun (0/8) in Lutkhovsky. As with Rheulgard, I have no idea why.


So, there be the condundrum.

[masterdaorin]

There are two conundrums that you're missing. The first one is admittedly tricky. I'll attempt to clarify below. The other has to do with the provinces of Wohlers and Wahlrud. I'm not sure how I can restate that issue any more clearly so I'll just ask you to scroll up and reread my previous post.

Who says there are no rulers? As I stated, there is a ruler there - the local baron (or count, or whoever you decide rules that province). It's just that this person isn't gaining regency from doing so, so they do not merit mention in the realm's stats.

He's just another flunky of one of these three important regents. Note that one of these three regents still gains the regency from that province, but they have no law holdings there to speak of - whoever is there follows them only if it suits their interests, but this person finds it convenient enough (for the time being) to go along with these greater barons, since they profit from it.

Just because a regent doesn't control that province doesn't mean time stands still there. The population still grows... the people there are still having babies, and going about their daily lives. Why shouldn't the province grow?


First of all, I'm talking about "maximum source potential" for a province. Shouldn't Forested provinces have a max source potential of 7 and Ancient Forests a max source potential of 9?

Of course, Rheulgard is a realm populated by humans, so civilization will drive down source potential. But, as I said, there is a (5/3) province, and two (4/4) provinces. If that civilization wasn't there, you'd decrease their province levels to 0 and increase the source potential in equal measure. But, if you do that, you get forested provinces with max source potentials of 8. Not 9. Not 7. 8.
...
In fact, only a small handful of provinces in all of Cerilia are listed as having a max source potential of 8:


Llubraigh has three (1/8) provinces. Since it is an elven realm, civilization doesn't drive source potential down so, RAW says they have a max source potential of 8. However, all three provinces are ancient forests and have 9 levels worth of source holdings. It appears that all of its provinces were calculated as though they were ruled by humans so one could presume they should actually be (1/9) provinces.
The Hydra's provinces are all (0/8), as is the province of Dankmaar in Rjuvik -- but they are all 100% wetland (swamp) provinces.
In all of Cerilia, the only other province I know of that is forested and has a max source potential of 8 is Aykbun (0/8) in Lutkhovsky. As with Rheulgard, I have no idea why.


So, there be the condundrum.

Well, you've got two options:

1) Decide that the editor of said source material sucked, and chalk this up to a typo. Or,
2) As I believe I have stated in another thread, there are lots of these "conundrums" scattered in the sourcebooks. My preferred solution is thus:

Who says that forests are only 7 or 9? Why not 8 as well? A swamp is really just a wet forest, is it not? Taiga, for example, is full of bogs and whatnot - doesn't qualify as a swamp, because its frozen for much of the year, but it's still a forested area.

There are lots of areas in the other areas that do not follow the terrain rules, namely moor, mountain, and hill terrains across Cerilia.

So, instead of saying its all typos, I've created a range of terrain types for these "base terrain" types. These now have a range of density or height types. Thus:

Bogs: Light (6); Medium (7); or Dense (8) wetland areas.
Forests: Light (7); Medium (8); or Dense (9) forested areas.
Hills: Low (5); Medium (6); or High (7) hill areas.
Moors: Low (5); Medium (6); or High (7) highland areas.
Mountains: Low (5); Medium (6); or High (7) mountain areas.

This has solved nearly all of these so-called conundrums, and without "dragon bones" or "coastal/river" explanations to do it with.

Those few provinces left that defy this system I've explained instead as a topographical explanation - meaning, those that are higher than expected are "low-points" in the terrain, where mebhaighl collects, are mebhaighl "rich", and those that are lower are suppressed in some way - mebhaighl "poor". The latter, of course, might be harder to explain...

And another interesting thing about this then becomes: how to explain why the elves don't affect this potential... But you probably will not like my explanation for it... those provinces in Lluabraight, for example...

[Magnus Argent]

Who says there are no rulers?

Again, I don't know how to restate it any clearer so I will once again ask you to scroll up and review my initial post. I believe I identified exactly what says there are no rulers.


As I stated, there is a ruler there - the local baron (or count, or whoever you decide rules that province). It's just that this person isn't gaining regency from doing so, so they do not merit mention in the realm's stats.

He's just another flunky of one of these three important regents. Note that one of these three regents still gains the regency from that province, but they have no law holdings there to speak of - whoever is there follows them only if it suits their interests, but this person finds it convenient enough (for the time being) to go along with these greater barons, since they profit from it.

I'm pretty sure you're just making this up. Or can you cite where you're getting this information?


Just because a regent doesn't control that province doesn't mean time stands still there. The population still grows... the people there are still having babies, and going about their daily lives. Why shouldn't the province grow?

If that were the case, there would be no 0-level provinces anywhere. I know you're not a fan of the Birthright/AD&D rules but they still do apply to the official canon setting.


Well, you've got two options:

I'm not looking for options as to handle theses odd province stats. I'm looking to confirm that these stats are, indeed, odd. I intend to add an observation to Rheulgard's wiki page pointing out why the stats in question are odd and then invite DMs who enjoy the worldbuilding aspect of the setting to come up with their own way of explaining the situation.


Who says that forests are only 7 or 9? Why not 8 as well? A swamp is really just a wet forest, is it not? Taiga, for example, is full of bogs and whatnot - doesn't qualify as a swamp, because its frozen for much of the year, but it's still a forested area.

Again, rules.


There are lots of areas in the other areas that do not follow the terrain rules, namely moor, mountain, and hill terrains across Cerilia.

Yes, I know. I took the time to identify some of them.


So, instead of saying its all typos, I've created a range of terrain types for these "base terrain" types. These now have a range of density or height types. Thus:

Bogs: Light (6); Medium (7); or Dense (8) wetland areas.
Forests: Light (7); Medium (8); or Dense (9) forested areas.
Hills: Low (5); Medium (6); or High (7) hill areas.
Moors: Low (5); Medium (6); or High (7) highland areas.
Mountains: Low (5); Medium (6); or High (7) mountain areas.

This has solved nearly all of these so-called conundrums, and without "dragon bones" or "coastal/river" explanations to do it with.

Clearly you've spent some time and effort in thoughtful consideration of this matter. I respect that. And I appreciate the example you provided for how you chose to handle the matter in your version of Cerilia.

When a post starts out presenting opinions and misinformation as facts, I have a tendency to dismiss everything else that the author has to say. I'm glad I continued to read your full post.

[masterdaorin]

Again, I don't know how to restate it any clearer so I will once again ask you to scroll up and review my initial post. I believe I identified exactly what says there are no rulers.

So, you're telling me that because its says that there are no regents listed for those provinces, that this means that there can't possibly be any governmental structure therein?



I'm pretty sure you're just making this up. Or can you cite where you're getting this information?

See above.

I'll say again: a swamp is really just a wet forest. So, are you saying that there can't possibly be any '8' forests around that are "dry"-ish?


If that were the case, there would be on 0-level provinces anywhere.

Sic. Really, Magnus? That's what you got out of that?


I'm not looking for options as to handle theses odd province stats. I'm looking to confirm that these stats are, indeed, odd. I intend to add an observation to Rheulgard's wiki page pointing out why the stats in question are odd and then invite DMs who enjoy the worldbuilding aspect of the setting to come up with their own way of explaining the situation.

They are indeed different from many other provinces. Does that make them odd? Does that mean they are all typos? I gave you my observations as to why I think they are not.

Hey, you did ask... See below.

Note that I never said anywhere that you, or anyone, has to accept or even use my explanations... I'm assuming you posted this here to solicit opinions from the general membership? Or, did I miss something? If so, I apologize.


Does anyone know why the source potential for Rheulgard's forest provinces are so odd?

[Magnus Argent]

So, you're telling me that because its says that there are no regents listed for those provinces, that this means that there can't possibly be any governmental structure therein?



See above.

I'll say again: a swamp is really just a wet forest. So, are you saying that there can't possibly be any '8' forests around that are "dry"-ish?



Sic. Really, Magnus? That's what you got out of that?



They are indeed different from many other provinces. Does that make them odd? Does that mean they are all typos? I gave you my observations as to why I think they are not.

Hey, you did ask... See below.

Note that I never said anywhere that you, or anyone, has to accept or even use my explanations... I'm assuming you posted this here to solicit opinions from the general membership? Or, did I miss something? If so, I apologize.

Ok, thanks for posting your thoughts on this topic.

[Ratty]

As a regent of Rheulgard of 3 years, allow me to comment. I suspect that Rheulgard has gotten more play in our game spanning the entire bay, than ever in the history of Birthright.

First off, the idea behind 1/8 elven forests is that there is a modest human and especially crossbreed population living there. This is clearly the case with Southern Rhuannach for example, where barely inhabited human forest turn into slightly damaged elven forest.

The game consistently shows you Ancient Forest as 9 total province value, jungle, plains and young forest as 7 value, desert as 5 value, and so on. We've noticed pretty quickly in our campaign that Rheulgard's default numbers are weird, so we changed them. Generally speaking, the only time you see irregular numbers is when the land is cursed in some fashion, but there are actually quite a lot of these irregularities. For example, Lands of the Basilisk and the Mistmoor are cursed deadlands. You can even imagine that the Sources are being outright siphoned away into awnmebhaighl on realm level. Drachenward has a 3/3 province that's clearly just a forest, but it's a bit special in that it's right next to the Hag. Similarly, Lutkhovsky has a 0/8 forest province, but it also has a temple of Lirovka, so it could be that part of the forest has sunk into the Shadow World (seems like something that should really be in realm description). I don't know what would explain the three 8-value provinces north of Urga-Zai.

We can see the Harrowmarsh being consistent with the other swamp provinces in the Gulf of Coeranys, with a total province value of 8. It's just a rare biome type. Also not something the players are really supposed to see at all, since the province values are hidden on the official map.

Thus, one explanation for the weird math in Rheulgard is that Unbraustadt and Nochlauch are actually swamps. This would make lots of sense considering Nochlauch's position at a river bend between two lakes. But it makes little sense for Unbraustadt, which is right next to a desert, even if a cursed one. It makes no sense at all in Deuchlach.

Thus, the much more logical explanation for Rheulgard's odd values is that it's one of those places that the devs didn't finish before they all got fired. You see, Rheulgard is sort of the poster child for the 'default state' issue many realms have (and practically all Vos realms do), which is funnier for it being a recommended player realm: If played by core, everything is instantly completely apocalyptic and nobody has any money to solve the immediately occurring problems. Many regents are literally incapable of paying their army upkeep if they don't roll great on income.

In Rheulgard:
You are pressed by like 5 armies at once depending on what the GM decides. Muden is possibly your friend but it's also an imperialist force which would love to make you into a vassal.
You have no money. If no player picked guilder, the default guild is a literal bandit gang, and it still takes years to develop it into something that can actually support the country if it's not.
You are threatened by several major Awnshegh at once. The Swordhawk from the west, who can conquer Treucht easy and then he's your problem. There's also the Banshegh who hates you and constantly kills your people. The Sphinx can come from the south, who'd love himself some of those sweet sources, and besides him you can expect all kinds of slaver bands from the south.
To the east is an expansionist Vos realm which will raid you for laughs.
You're surrounded by two elven forests who hate you if you develop the provinces which you need to do to make money you need to not get conquered.
As the final nail in the coffin, the country is ran by three people who hate each other. This is exacerbated by the clear social tensions within the country between Brechts, Khinasi, Elves, and possibly even Vos in the east. If you're starting in a neighboring country, it feels practically intended to divide and conquer Rheulgard by making two of the Regents turn against the third and swoop in after the civil war. That's without any external invasion at all. It's just a completely infernal place to be a regent of. You BETTER make friends with the Burrows, because everybody else would love to see you ruined.

At the same time, there is a completely different reason why Rheulgard makes a splendid player realm: It's connected to most of Cerilia through the rivers, so it actually has the potential to become very cosmopolitan. If you can get Paschacht or just a road to Muden, you can travel anywhere you want quickly, except far west and far Vosgard. Kind of like this:
https://i.imgur.com/GNWuUjm.png

In short, playing Rheulgard in Birthright is a lot like playing Italy in Diplomacy. You start in huge trouble, you need to immediately establish order in the realm to survive, but unlike say Rovninodensk which is pretty much completely screwed without heavy GM fiat, you do have lots of opportunities to gain an upper hand, exactly since the province values are high. You'll probably never get rid of all your problems, since you are dead center of the map and behind every problem you've dealt with is an even bigger problem rearing its head. However, it does allow you to use pretty much the entire setting, except the Rjuvik and who wants to use those guys they're lame

[Magnus Argent]

As a regent of Rheulgard of 3 years, allow me to comment. I suspect that Rheulgard has gotten more play in our game spanning the entire bay, than ever in the history of Birthright.

Sounds like a fun campaign!


First off, the idea behind 1/8 elven forests is that there is a modest human and especially crossbreed population living there. This is clearly the case with Southern Rhuannach for example, where barely inhabited human forest turn into slightly damaged elven forest.

I agree. The only reason I even brought it up is because so many of the province/source around it seemed wonky.


The game consistently shows you Ancient Forest as 9 total province value, jungle, plains and young forest as 7 value, desert as 5 value, and so on. We've noticed pretty quickly in our campaign that Rheulgard's default numbers are weird, so we changed them.

Ok, thanks! I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one who thought the numbers were odd.


Generally speaking, the only time you see irregular numbers is when the land is cursed in some fashion, but there are actually quite a lot of these irregularities. For example, Lands of the Basilisk and the Mistmoor are cursed deadlands. You can even imagine that the Sources are being outright siphoned away into awnmebhaighl on realm level. Drachenward has a 3/3 province that's clearly just a forest, but it's a bit special in that it's right next to the Hag. Similarly, Lutkhovsky has a 0/8 forest province, but it also has a temple of Lirovka, so it could be that part of the forest has sunk into the Shadow World (seems like something that should really be in realm description). I don't know what would explain the three 8-value provinces north of Urga-Zai.

I believe the temple in Lutkhovsky is dedicated to Sirova (aka Sera/Saramie), not Lirovka (aka Ruornil/Rilni/Lirorn). I don't think that necessarily changes the calculus, however.


We can see the Harrowmarsh being consistent with the other swamp provinces in the Gulf of Coeranys, with a total province value of 8. It's just a rare biome type. Also not something the players are really supposed to see at all, since the province values are hidden on the official map.

Thus, one explanation for the weird math in Rheulgard is that Unbraustadt and Nochlauch are actually swamps. This would make lots of sense considering Nochlauch's position at a river bend between two lakes. But it makes little sense for Unbraustadt, which is right next to a desert, even if a cursed one. It makes no sense at all in Deuchlach.

There are certainly other valid ways to explain the Source potential for Rheulgard's provinces but, if we presume the source material is accurate, concluding they are actually wetlands seems like a reasonable explanation.

http://www.birthright.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1835&d=1703900889

[Sorontar]

Ratty said:

At the same time, there is a completely different reason why Rheulgard makes a splendid player realm: It's connected to most of Cerilia through the rivers, so it actually has the potential to become very cosmopolitan. If you can get Paschacht or just a road to Muden, you can travel anywhere you want quickly, except far west and far Vosgard. Kind of like this:

Where did those roads come from? I ask this because I might have to change the description of the Burrows on the wiki if there is actually a canon road from Unbraustadt to Fellrock.

Sorontar

[Ratty]

Sounds like a fun campaign!

This game had almost 20 players, with main centers of action being Rheulgard, Rzhlev and Grabentod. I suppose I might explain more or less how it went on the Rheulgardian site, politically speaking. I'm skipping over a million things, since the game might eventually get storytimed in detail, or something. But, for a start, practically every regular regent in Rheulgard has been replaced by a lvl1 PC, leading to things being even more dangerous than they would usually be.

Stille Wachter was succeeded by a new ranger baron, an ambitious and
rambunctious man.
Edlenna was ruled by a knight baron, who quickly retired (ghosted) and passed his holdings onto the Canton of Poden, which may have been a good thing in the long run, but led to many social tensions.
The Bannalach Spoilers have been wiped out by mercenaries led by a witty knight of Unrau Garten returning from his travels in the far south, for which he has been granted the bandit's guild holdings by the Mater of Unbrau.
Soon after, Unbrau was taken over by a Priest of Avani, who had no use for Law holdings (and indeed wasn't a fantastic ruler). He does not get most of Nachtaben's holdings, so there is at least one competent regent left in the country.
The lvl17 Wizard of Rheulgard has gone missing with Zedforst being taken over by a mysterious Khinasi wizard.
There is also another guilder, a Khinasi one, who gets himself a guild made from frankensteined guild holdings in and out of Rheulgard. He works with the new wizard in Zedforst a lot.

Within the first season, the guilder knight has managed to accidentally become an Awnshegh, and, keeping it secret, hires a lieutenant accountant magician (another PC) who he has no idea is also an Awnshegh since chargen. Zedforst spews mist, the PCs come in to find a breach to the Shadow World at the bottom, causing the wizard to eventually fall to the Shadow down the line. Floods and raids in Edlenna are unanswered because the baron is not there, and at the end of the season an army of undead (which we were somewhat aware of) marched out of the Bannalach and sacked Podenstahl before armies could get into position, taking away my level 4 Guild holding. The undead belonged to the Vampire, whom we have exactly zero ways of getting back on. A fantastic start.

Next season the Swordhawk has conquered Treucht and Rheulgard has to help Muden push them back; this is a very bloody battle helped by the fact that all the gold looted from Podenstahl has been just given to the northern Baron to raise more soldiers so that this does not happen again. The Baron also decides that it's a great idea to go court the Banshegh and eventually marries her with no regard for the consequences and no plan to break the curse or anything, just because she is hot.

The next season Rheulgard gets a little bit of a breather, letting regents build and rule instead of constantly adventuring and waging war, except for the fact that Zedforst is still spewing mist, and we have no idea how to plug the hole, because someone (the khinasi guilder) stole the gem in the gate. Some of the regents travel south to Kozlovnyy, and end up killing the local regent of Belinik's temple, thus ensuring trade routes. There are already trade routes mainly to the Burrows, now ships sail both rivers.

In winter, the Warlock of Tarva convinces a few Rheulgardian PCs that it would be a GREAT idea to go south and visit Djira, because it may hold the secret to getting rid of the Basilisk. The party eventually run into el-Sheghul himself, who first forces the awnshegh magician guilder lieutenant to drink some bloodform juice, and subsequently is kind enough to let them borrow a book from his library about the history of Tarva, so that they may figure out how to lift its curse.
Around this time, the northern baron gets it into his head that 'Baron' is a lame name, and perhaps because of his wife, who again is the Banshegh, starts calling himself King. Issues of Brecht titles and legality aside, people at least acknowledge that the elves might respect this more.

In spring, many bad things happen to Rheulgard mostly without its ability to stop it. Treucht is successfully annexed by the Swordhawk with (coerced) agreement of the local regent, a Player Character even. Inspired by the previous heist, the high priest of Avani and the now secretly shadow wizard get it into their heads that it would be a fantastic idea to visit the Lamia for reasons I still do not fully comprehend to this day, losing the wizard's most trusted liutenant to her charms and getting another liutenant eaten by a giant frog (in the jungle? I wasn't there).
On the flipside, the guilder knight also introduces his daughter to the guild this season. This is a child he had with some harlot when he was a teen, and who was subsequently used to blackmail him under threat of bloodthefting the baby, and he had her brought up mostly alone, if educated - thus his relations with his daughter are not the best. However, he realizes that he doesn't have much time left, and makes her Liutenant and heir to his holdings, but not bloodline. A month later, the guild would be split into two, Lake Lynx North and Lake Lynx south, a move that possibly saved Rheulgard's butt. They might only have half income each, but double guilder regent actions does in fact mean double the profit. The guilder knight is now pretty much completely turned into a cat-headed awnshegh.

In summer, Unbraustadt finds itself besieged by the Sphinx, who is after a year extremely sick and tired of us just letting the stain on Zedforst fester. The battle is narrowly lost, somewhat because of the army of summoned Trolls, but primarily because the high priest of Avani who is supposed to run the place is not there, and neither are any of his soldiers, thus Canton of Poden and guild auxillaries are forced to defend his city for him. The guilder knight (who is now a complete awnshegh) is captured in his battle.
Quickly enough, the shadow wizard appears to rescue him, but the attempt fails as the pair runs into the Sphinx on the way out; wizard dying horribly (causing the guilder to forever think that he was a good guy), and guilder cat knight awnshegh regent being subjected to some very unfortunate carnal practices for his trouble.

In fall, he is eventually released after being forced to marry one of the Sphinx's daughters (who, believe it or not, is also a cat woman).
The Sphinx proceeds to enter Zedforst and finds a laboratory full of horrible monstrosities in Rheulaan's former tower. He offers the Rheulgardians that he'll abandon the southern city (now mostly bereft of population) if they let him become the Wizard of Rheulgard and keep a lid on it. Since no one wants to have half their country held hostage, they are forced to accept, and sphinxspawn begin to appear here and there in Rheulgard.
Before the shadow wizard died, he managed to teach a few war spells to the magician guilder lieutenant awnshegh, which is very handy when Rheulgard is additionally raided from the east at the end of the season. It is also very handy that the lieutenant has Battlewise, impressing everyone with his understanding of strategy, being knighted on the spot, and made the honorary commander of Rheulgard's armies. Since no one knows he's an extremely disciplined awnshegh, no one is aware either that every time he uses Battlewise, it progresses his Bloodform a little bit, giving him a few red fox hairs here and there.
It is ALSO very handy that 2000 Rjuvik warriors march out of Zedforst to support his army on the shadow wizard last command, which no one wants to question because the war couldn't be won without them. (they came through the Shadow World from Hjorig where some completely different sketchy things have been happening at this time. No way we'd have had enough troops naturally)

In winter, the main course is a giant black pyramid megadungeon in Tarva which the desert warlock needs explored to uncurse his realm. In the process of the dive, the Rheulgardian high priest of Avani comes across a magic lamp with a female efreet in it, lets her out of the lamp, wishes for youth, a mighty weapon, and finally wishes that the efreet become his wife. Thus, while Unbraustadt is quickly restored with her magical power, it is also doomed to a history of further turmoil as the racial tensions are enhanced by the presence of temperamental fire genasi in the noble bloodline. Also, there are no more Law holdings in Unbraustadt. I still keep my guild holdings because I actually bothered to build fortifications unlike the priest.
To lift the country's spirits, the 'King' of Poden declares a tournament, which is attended by all regents of the realm. This ends up including the Sphinx. The former ruler of Treucht appears, oathbound by the Swordhawk's blade, and attempts to assassinate the Sphinx, upon which the Swordhawk himself appears. Unfortunately, it ends up in a draw and we don't manage to get either killed, only the Swordhawk juicing himself on the Sphinx's children and the Sphinx juicing himself on the former Treucht regent. The Rheulgardians still take this as yet another example of the Swordhawk horribly embarassing himself, because he failed at his true goal, and did in fact lose every large-scale battle thus far.
EDIT: It is also noteworthy, which I've forgotten, that one of the combatants on the tournament ends up being Meson the Wolfman, whom the King bloodthefts pretty much in front of the entire assembled country. He beats the roll not to get Azraid, but still. What the hell, dude.
At the turn of the season, Rheulaan Greencloak finally returns (as a result of being freed in an unrelated adventure), and kicks the Sphinx out of his lawn. Before then, the guild manages to convince the Sphinx to uprule Serifel to 4/1, so that they have an extra trade route. Sendoure hasn't been exactly friendly to their advances, especially since they are enemies of the Burrows, who have a pretty firm alliance with Rheulgard at this point. (There have been a few near-wars with Sendoure at this point, which our troops would have had to participate in.)

In spring of the third year, Rheulaan finally seals off the portals to the City of Brass beneath Unbraustadt. He is happy that the guilder has managed to find a gem of matching size to close the Shadow World gate, but what he is not happy about is the fact that the efreet had the magic-thick wood of Zedforst and Beuraben shipped to its furnaces. In fact, he is rather extremely pissed about this, as was the Sphinx, getting into several fights with the efreet.
The realm is -somewhat- safe now with a modest treasury and modest army ready, even after successfully pushing the Swordhawk out of Treucht and giving most of the local regency over to the Golden Light.
Additionally, the southern version of the guild scours the land of the Khinasi guilders holding, as it is now clear he's been in league with the Swordhawk and the Vampire, and just sabotaging the country the entire time.
The next three seasons have mostly been adventuring, leading up to the climax of the campaign, so I won't say much more.

In the sequel campaign, set 15 years later, with none of the PCs being regents (safe for those who accquire regency during their adventure), Rheulgard is mostly described as a rich but grim place. The north is governed by a teenage half-elf 'Queen', daughter of the original 'King', who is at odds with the fiery princess of the south (both being to some degree puppets for their mothers, the efreet and the Banshegh). The guild, acting as a middle-man, is barely keeping the place from civil war. And there are werewolves and whatnot, still in the woods, and the slaver raids only got worse! There is always something. You really can't win with Rheulgard!

[Ratty]

Ratty said:


Where did those roads come from? I ask this because I might have to change the description of the Burrows on the wiki if there is actually a canon road from Unbraustadt to Fellrock.

Sorontar

I am fairly certain there are no roads and no trade routes by default (again, bandit guilds). I built all of those roads myself.
In fact, you have to build the bridge, too. It's a decently sized investment, but it definitely pays off. If the GM was cruel, some failed Diplomacy checks might force me to build roads in other people's countries.
This campaign should sound as a series of unfortunate events, but I think the GM was actually very kind by making us face them one or two a season, rather than all of them at once. Rheulgard really can't show its back to any country around it.

Anyway, you want to buy some furniture? (https://lakelynx.neocities.org/)

[Magnus Argent]

Ratty said:


Where did those roads come from? I ask this because I might have to change the description of the Burrows on the wiki if there is actually a canon road from Unbraustadt to Fellrock.

Sorontar

I don't believe canon states whether or not there are roads in Rheulgard. I did include roads on my map of Rheulgard to stay consistent with the maps presented in the various Player's Secrets sourcebooks (all of which depict the settlements within their borders as being connected by roads) but I purposefully avoided any that connected to provinces outside its borders.

Given their opposing alignments, it is unlikely (but not impossible) that Fellrock's guilder would have dealings with Rheulgard's guilder. That said, rumor has it that the Bannalach Spoilers guild trades with the Zhaïnge Merchant Guild of the Tarvan Wastes..

[Sorontar]

Generally the approach I have taken, given what canon is said about the Burrows, is that most trade and travel between Rheulgard and the Burrows will be via boat across Lake Sonderdeep (I think I was the one who named it) or roads to the north of the province of Greenlock. Such roads would have to deal with the marshlands so may have to either be very close to the lake (on well marked routes) or loop around them and journey inland a bit before coming to Bowersend (non-canon port town) or inner towns and villages like Ivesham (non-canon). None of this is official trade routes though.

Fellrock is mainly settled along the side of the lake, not south of the mountains, due to the mountains and forests (semi-canon, it is a 2/5 province). Except the main guilders, the halflings tend to use small rivercraft in the shallow waters. They would not regularly travel across the river to Rheulgard, but are happy to receive visitors. It would be unlikely that they would see the need or be willing to establish a large bridge across across the river to Fellrock, especially since it wouldn't go to anywhere important to the guilds. That is why I was worried that someone might have found something canon about the Burrows (and its association with Rheulgard) that I hadn't found.

Sorontar

[Magnus Argent]

Fellrock is mainly settled along the side of the lake, not south of the mountains, due to the mountains and forests (semi-canon, it is a 2/5 province). Except the main guilders, the halflings tend to use small rivercraft in the shallow waters. They would not regularly travel across the river to Rheulgard, but are happy to receive visitors. It would be unlikely that they would see the need or be willing to establish a large bridge across across the river to Fellrock, especially since it wouldn't go to anywhere important to the guilds. That is why I was worried that someone might have found something canon about the Burrows (and its association with Rheulgard) that I hadn't found.

Actually, I believe canon has Fellrock's settlers setting up shop in the forest and jagged hills, not along the lakeside. I'm pretty sure they live in homes carved into the rock-faces of sheer cliffs. Or am I mistaken?

[Sorontar]

Actually, I believe canon has Fellrock's settlers setting up shop in the forest and jagged hills, not along the lakeside. I'm pretty sure they live in homes carved into the rock-faces of sheer cliffs. Or am I mistaken?

For the BR wiki, I have made that more a historical habit, than a popular current thing. Havens of the Great Bay says:
"[the regent] expanded the Burrows nearly 40 years ago by leading settlers into the jagged hills and wild forests of Fellrock"
...
"In Fellrock, the mountainous province, the halflings live in homes carved out of the rock-faces of sheer cliffs."

Given the low population of Fellrock and how rough it is there, I decided it was best to interpret this all as follows:

"The two main towns in the province are near the flatter shores of Lake Sonderdeep.
Raufenshull is a minor fishing port.
Brackenton is the commercial and administrative hub of the province. It contains the local branch of the Breadfruit North-South guild and the main marketplace.
Other hamlets and villages are scattered around the province. Scaton is the only hamlet to endure on the edge of the forest, possibly because the Deacons of the Land's Protectorate always insist on running their affairs from there, rather than Brackenton. The oldest homes are near Scaton, carved into the side of cliffs and hills, but many are no longer habitable. Some scholars believe they may predate the settlement in Ivesham, Greenlock. This architectural style has been imitated and developed throughout the Burrows, but often in areas with earth that is more accommodating than the rocky surrounds of much of Fellrock."

My thoughts actually are that the early halfling travellers from the Shadow World to the Burrows came via Fellrock, which is why the Land's Protectorate is so interested in it. Some of the cave homes are from that time but they were long abandoned then redeveloped in the last 40 years.

By the way, it also says "Rheulgard is a certain ally of the Burrows", but never discussed anything about trade between the realms. Instead, it talks about trade between the Burrows and Sendoure to the west.

Sorontar

[masterdaorin]

I don't believe canon states whether or not there are roads in Rheulgard. I did include roads on my map of Rheulgard to stay consistent with the maps presented in the various Player's Secrets sourcebooks (all of which depict the settlements within their borders as being connected by roads) but I purposefully avoided any that connected to provinces outside its borders..

The official map shows Rheulgard does, indeed, have roads within the realm, connecting all the way to Treucht and Berhagen (but nothing as extensive as Ratty's campaign map).

I'm unaware of any official Player's Secrets sourcebooks for Rheulgard...

[masterdaorin]

Generally the approach I have taken, given what canon is said about the Burrows, is that most trade and travel between Rheulgard and the Burrows will be via boat ...

That's what I have concluded, as well. It makes sense - the Asware River is too convenient a waterway to not utilize as the main thoroughfare for the Burrows as the main mode of transportation.

[Magnus Argent]

The official map shows Rheulgard does, indeed, have roads within the realm, connecting all the way to Treucht and Berhagen (but nothing as extensive as Ratty's campaign map).

I'm unaware of any official Player's Secrets sourcebooks for Rheulgard...

You are absolutely right. I will have to update my map to reflect this.

Interestingly, there is also a road leading to the capital of Molochev, implying that the someone, somewhere is trading with Molochev. Might well be the Bannalach Spoilers, who's to say?

No, there is no Player's Secrets sourcebook for Rheulgard. As I said, I included roads to be consistent with the maps presented in all of the PS sourcebooks.

[masterdaorin]

You are absolutely right. I will have to update my map to reflect this.

Interestingly, there is also a road leading to the capital of Molochev, implying that the someone, somewhere is trading with Molochev. Might well be the Bannalach Spoilers, who's to say?

Sure, absolutely. Just because the nobles and warriors are fighting, doesn't mean that the peasants necessarily care about borders.

I would also bet that Molochev uses that road for trade more than the Rheulgardians do.

I've always been of the opinion that Molochev would rather pick fights with their neighbors to the south, and of course always have to be on the look-out for their neighbors to the east. Rheulgard (and Berhagen) are more-likely after-thoughts for the Molochevians, when there is a lull between their usual enemies.

Rheulgard most-likely is more worried about raiders from the Tarvan Waste than elsewhere.

Another thing to remember, since it's relevant to roads, is that Molochev wasn't always a Vos realm. That's when the road was built, I'm sure of it...

[Magnus Argent]

Sure, absolutely. Just because the nobles and warriors are fighting, doesn't mean that the peasants necessarily care about borders.

I would also bet that Molochev uses that road for trade more than the Rheulgardians do.

I've always been of the opinion that Molochev would rather pick fights with their neighbors to the south, and of course always have to be on the look-out for their neighbors to the east. Rheulgard (and Berhagen) are more-likely after-thoughts for the Molochevians, when there is a lull between their usual enemies.

Rheulgard most-likely is more worried about raiders from the Tarvan Waste than elsewhere.

Another thing to remember, since it's relevant to roads, is that Molochev wasn't always a Vos realm. That's when the road was built, I'm sure of it...

Interesting. Out of curiosity, what gives you the impression that Molochev favors raiding to the south?

Also, are you saying that Molochev was once a Brecht, Khinasi, or Anurian realm or are you simply reminding us that it was once part of the elven empire that existed prior to humanity's arrival on Cerilia?

[masterdaorin]

Interesting. Out of curiosity, what gives you the impression that Molochev favors raiding to the south?

Also, are you saying that Molochev was once a Brecht, Khinasi, or Anurian realm or are you simply reminding us that it was once part of the elven empire that existed prior to humanity's arrival on Cerilia?

Various text within the TotHW.

I believe Molochev (or, at least, the northern part) was once a Brecht realm.

However, that's just speculation on my part, but the inference is there in the text. That road had to come from somewhere... and it doesn't make sense that a road was connected from Edlenna to the *new* capital of Siast when Drago took over.

The question remains - where did the Vos that now inhabit Kozlovnyy and Molochev come from? CotS implies they came from the Tarvan Waste... but, it's possible that there was another realm (probably centered around Kurmansk), which might have been the "original" Molochev...

As to your first question, the Vos hate each other more than any other race. They would fight the Kozlovs before anyone else, I reckon... though the goblins probably keep them busy more often than not...

If we knew where Basil came from, that might answer these questions definitively...

[Magnus Argent]

Various text within the TotHW.

I believe Molochev (or, at least, the northern part) was once a Brecht realm.

However, that's just speculation on my part, but the inference is there in the text. That road had to come from somewhere... and it doesn't make sense that a road was connected from Edlenna to the *new* capital of Siast when Drago took over.

The question remains - where did the Vos that now inhabit Kozlovnyy and Molochev come from? CotS implies they came from the Tarvan Waste... but, it's possible that there was another realm (probably centered around Kurmansk), which might have been the "original" Molochev...

As to your first question, the Vos hate each other more than any other race. They would fight the Kozlovs before anyone else, I reckon... though the goblins probably keep them busy more often than not...

If we knew where Basil came from, that might answer these questions definitively...

AFAIK, the Vos have nothing to do with the Tarvan Wastes and there's nothing to suggest that Molochev was ever Brecht.

For some reason, I've always had the impression that the Vos who conquered the lands known as Kozlovnyy once lived in lands that are today considered part of Kal Kalathor. I don't know if that impression was based on something I read in a sourcebook or if it's unique to my version of Cerilia.

[masterdaorin]

AFAIK, the Vos have nothing to do with the Tarvan Wastes and there's nothing to suggest that Molochev was ever Brecht.

For some reason, I've always had the impression that the Vos who conquered the lands known as Kozlovnyy once lived in lands that are today considered part of Kal Kalathor. I don't know if that impression was based on something I read in a sourcebook or if it's unique to my version of Cerilia.

Most likely because the Vos are seen as settling two areas of Cerilia, via the colonization maps on the back of the CR, one of which is around there...

However, it's not specifically clear...

What is known is that Kal Kalathor was much smaller back then at the time of Basil, and that Sviatol was not always the capital of Molochev. I suspect that the "old" Molochev was based around Kurmansk, and that it included some of the provinces in what are now Kal Kalathor.

Of course, I suspect that area has always been riddled with goblin bolt-holes, so the "southern Vos" probably always had to contend with native tribes of goblins.

[masterdaorin]

AFAIK, the Vos have nothing to do with the Tarvan Wastes and there's nothing to suggest that Molochev was ever Brecht.

That is not wholly accurate.

The Vos invaded the realm of Sefra, the land of present-day Tarvan Waste, from the north. They certainly pillaged it. I wouldn't be surprised if some stayed, and tried to rule their newly conquered territory. The nomads of the Waste are probably, at least partly, their descendants.

The Vos then invaded Medec. It's not clear where the Vos came from, but presumably from the "southern Vos" tribes, which today is Molochev. Since they do not like the Kozlovs, presumably either they are a break-away tribe from Molochev... or the Kozlovs are the descendants of the Vos that invaded and stayed in the Tarvan Waste...

Regarding Molochev itself: when the Free League began expanding, they came from the southwest. I would argue this was Rheulgard (makes sense - it's the only clear terrain to allow huge armies to move efficiently). When Basil convinced his tsarevos to give ground, they lost the territory of what is now Molochev. It became a conquered Brecht territory.

The Brecht began settling down in their newly acquired southern territories (TotHW, page 6). I would venture to argue that that is when the road through Molochev was built.

Granted, Molochev as a Brecht nation was short lived, but it was Brecht at one point...

[Magnus Argent]

That is not wholly accurate.

The Vos invaded the realm of Sefra, the land of present-day Tarvan Waste, from the north. They certainly pillaged it. I wouldn't be surprised if some stayed, and tried to rule their newly conquered territory. The nomads of the Waste are probably, at least partly, their descendants.

Whaaat? El-Sefra is a single province in the Tarvaan Wastes. I've never heard of a historical realm called Serfa. The only official entity that I know of who once ruled over the region was a clan from the old realm of Irbouda but the Sphinx subjugated them long ago. Where are you getting your information from? Honestly, it seems like this is a made-up backstory for someone's pbp campaign.


The Vos then invaded Medec. It's not clear where the Vos came from, but presumably from the "southern Vos" tribes, which today is Molochev. Since they do not like the Kozlovs, presumably either they are a break-away tribe from Molochev... or the Kozlovs are the descendants of the Vos that invaded and stayed in the Tarvan Waste...

There are no Vos who raided or stayed in the Tarvan Waste. Medec was overrun by the Vos. Could be from Molochev. Could be from Ust Atka. OR Medec could have been invaded by Vos who once lived in Kal Kalathor. We know the goblin kingdom was not always as expansive as it is today (pg 7 TotHW). It doesn't make sense that the Vos settled in Molochev and in Ust Atka but not in the land in between. It does make sense that they settled that land and later discovered a goblin kingdom beneath them, giving them incentive to move elsewhere.. like, say, Medec.

There's nothing to say that the Vos of Kozlovnyy didn't originally come from Molochev. But there's nothing to say they didn't come from an unnamed land that is know a part of Kal Kalathor. Personally, I find the notion that they came from the Kal Kalathor region to be the more likely of those two scenarios.


Regarding Molochev itself: when the Free League began expanding, they came from the southwest. I would argue this was Rheulgard (makes sense - it's the only clear terrain to allow huge armies to move efficiently). When Basil convinced his tsarevos to give ground, they lost the territory of what is now Molochev. It became a conquered Brecht territory.

I agree with all of the above.


The Brecht began settling down in their newly acquired southern territories (TotHW, page 6). I would venture to argue that that is when the road through Molochev was built.

Granted, Molochev as a Brecht nation was short lived, but it was Brecht at one point...

I disagree with all of the above. Was Molochev a "conquered territory"? Yes? Was it a "Brecht Nation"? Nope. I would encourage you to re-read page 6 of TotHW. It doesn't say "they began to settle the southern lands.:" It says "they set up camp on the shore of Lake Ladan." lol Two very different things. It goes on to say that they immediately began the process of dividing up the lands they conquered so far. Which means the issue hadn't been settled yet -- they likely left a few units in Molochev to act as occupying forces but the Brecht never invested those lands. The Battle of Lake Ladan literally started when they were in the process of trying to decide who gets what.

The timeline of Cerilia states that "The Brecht who survived the battle [of Lake Ladan] fled north and west". What's north and west of Lake Ladan? The Mistmoor. From the Mistmoor they fled into Rzhlev, where they split up and made for either Grevesmuhl or Berhagen.

History doesn't record it (meaning it's not in the official timeline of cerilia) but some of the Brecht fled south, into Kal Kalathor. But those who did were killed by goblin armies who had been commissioned by Uncle Basil. When the Vos of Molochev returned to reclaim their land, the few Brecht armies that were occupying Molochev fled into Berhagen.

Point being: Molochev was occupied by Brecht armies between the years of 1137HC and 1140HC but were never invested and thus, they did not constitute a Brecht nation.

Is it possible that a road was built during that time? Sure. Is it possible that it was built prior to or after that time? Sure, sure.

[Delazar]

http://www.birthright.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1835&d=1703900889

I don't mean to derail this thread, but... where is this AWESOME map coming from? Is it your own creation? Care to share it?

[Delazar]

Kind of like this:
https://i.imgur.com/GNWuUjm.png



this looks like something done in Roll20? That map is really good-looking. Would it be possible to share it?

[Sorontar]

Whaaat? El-Sefra is a single province in the Tarvaan Wastes. I've never heard of a historical realm called Serfa. The only official entity that I know of who once ruled over the region was a clan from the old realm of Irbouda but the Sphinx subjugated them long ago. Where are you getting your information from? Honestly, it seems like this is a made-up backstory for someone's pbp campaign.

I found this in Twilight Peaks. Perhaps this was the basis for the history if it wasn't canon.

https://twilightpeaks.net/forum/index.php?topic=1422.0

"The Tarvan Waste lies east of Irbouda, ...
It is in this inhospitable land that the hardiest and most backward of Khinasi nomads eke out a living. Save for the city-state of Sefra, which ruled over the northwestern steppe and the woodlands beyond it (including some provinces now counted as part of Rheulgard), the land has never felt the touch of civilization. Not even el-Arrasi’s attempts to harness the marshlands of the middle Zhaïnge amounted to much in the long run, and Sefra was destroyed by Vos raiders in 1075 HC. Today three primary groups eke out a living here. To the south the gnolls of the Yezdaga inhabit the Tarvanian Hills, just like they do in Irbouda. To the east the Uigher tribes make up the largest human population of the Waste. The Uigher’s are traditional Khinasi nomads, fierce, hardy, and devoted to Avani. To the north and west the Kharnegui tribes still linger, including some bloodlines that are more Vos than Khinasi. "

Sorontar

[Magnus Argent]

I don't mean to derail this thread, but... where is this AWESOME map coming from? Is it your own creation? Care to share it?

I created it on Inkarnate. Feel free to copy, clone, edit, use, or ignore, as desired.

Map of Rheulgard (https://inkarnate.com/m/427Z1j-rheulgard/) by me.

I'm not a professional cartographer or graphic designer (clearly) but feel free to PM me if you'd like to request a free map of a particular Birthright realm or region.

[Magnus Argent]

I found this in Twilight Peaks. Perhaps this was the basis for the history if it wasn't canon.

https://twilightpeaks.net/forum/index.php?topic=1422.0

"The Tarvan Waste lies east of Irbouda, ...
It is in this inhospitable land that the hardiest and most backward of Khinasi nomads eke out a living. Save for the city-state of Sefra, which ruled over the northwestern steppe and the woodlands beyond it (including some provinces now counted as part of Rheulgard), the land has never felt the touch of civilization. Not even el-Arrasi’s attempts to harness the marshlands of the middle Zhaïnge amounted to much in the long run, and Sefra was destroyed by Vos raiders in 1075 HC. Today three primary groups eke out a living here. To the south the gnolls of the Yezdaga inhabit the Tarvanian Hills, just like they do in Irbouda. To the east the Uigher tribes make up the largest human population of the Waste. The Uigher’s are traditional Khinasi nomads, fierce, hardy, and devoted to Avani. To the north and west the Kharnegui tribes still linger, including some bloodlines that are more Vos than Khinasi. "

Sorontar

Yes, the "Kharnegui tribe" was made up for that pbp campaign. It was probably used to explain the "Carnegui Resolution", a historical event used as an example of the Sphinx' negotiating tactics. AFAIK, the city-state of Sefra was also made up for that campaign.

Canon only names a single individual with Vos blood in the area -- a Vos Fighter/Druid (I think) who lives in the realm of the Sphinx.

That said, I freely admit that there could be a passage I missed in one of the sourcebooks somewhere. That's why I was asking where the info is coming from. But, if the only place it is mentioned is twilightpeaks, that certainly doesn't make it canon. ;)

[Magnus Argent]

Sorry, I should correct a misstatement I made in my previous post. Canon-wise, the Kharneghui clan did indeed exist. They once ruled over a portion of the Tarvan Wastes.
They were based out of old Irbouda and when the Sphinx rose to power, they fell.

Nothing about the old realm of Sefra is canon.

In my personal opinion, people should not be allowed to use this site to present information relevant only to a private campaign. Which is why I have a problem with the Birthright Wiki allowing pure fiction to be presented without anything flagging it as such. Visitors to this site can't rely on the info they find there, which is an absolute shame.

[masterdaorin]

Nothing about the old realm of Sefra is canon.

That is wholly inaccurate.

CotS, page 26, q.v.


In my personal opinion, people should not be allowed to use this site to present information relevant only to a private campaign. Which is why I have a problem with the Birthright Wiki allowing pure fiction to be presented without anything flagging it as such. Visitors to this site can't rely on the info they find there, which is an absolute shame.

What else is this site used for? I thought it was to share ideas and help each other with our Birthright games?

[masterdaorin]

Whaaat? El-Sefra is a single province in the Tarvaan Wastes. I've never heard of a historical realm called Serfa. The only official entity that I know of who once ruled over the region was a clan from the old realm of Irbouda but the Sphinx subjugated them long ago. Where are you getting your information from? Honestly, it seems like this is a made-up backstory for someone's pbp campaign.

See my post above.


There are no Vos who raided or stayed in the Tarvan Waste. Medec was overrun by the Vos. Could be from Molochev. Could be from Ust Atka. OR Medec could have been invaded by Vos who once lived in Kal Kalathor. We know the goblin kingdom was not always as expansive as it is today (pg 7 TotHW). It doesn't make sense that the Vos settled in Molochev and in Ust Atka but not in the land in between. It does make sense that they settled that land and later discovered a goblin kingdom beneath them, giving them incentive to move elsewhere.. like, say, Medec.

Again, see my post above. The Vos raided into the Tarvan Waste. They pillaged Sefra, and took away many slaves.

But, the question of where those Vos came from is up for debate - because it's not clear. Most likely Molochev, I agree, but it's not clear.

What really doesn't make sense is for a great goblin nation to sit around for centuries not doing anything about a group of humans sitting directly above them. Because, you know, the Vos where there since Deismaar, but the goblins were there for thousands of years before that...


There's nothing to say that the Vos of Kozlovnyy didn't originally come from Molochev. But there's nothing to say they didn't come from an unnamed land that is know a part of Kal Kalathor. Personally, I find the notion that they came from the Kal Kalathor region to be the more likely of those two scenarios.

I agree, except for the latter. However, it is possible. And, it sure would be nice to know for sure... that is what this site is for, isn't it?


I disagree with all of the above. Was Molochev a "conquered territory"? Yes? Was it a "Brecht Nation"? Nope. I would encourage you to re-read page 6 of TotHW. It doesn't say "they began to settle the southern lands.:" It says "they set up camp on the shore of Lake Ladan." lol Two very different things. It goes on to say that they immediately began the process of dividing up the lands they conquered so far. Which means the issue hadn't been settled yet -- they likely left a few units in Molochev to act as occupying forces but the Brecht never invested those lands. The Battle of Lake Ladan literally started when they were in the process of trying to decide who gets what.

They were there for approximately 3 years. That doesn't say to me that they "were just passing through."

You better reread that passage again. It states, "... and the nobles among them met to divide up their newly gained southern Vos territories."

That says to me that they were staying, and had every intention of keeping said territory.


The timeline of Cerilia states that "The Brecht who survived the battle [of Lake Ladan] fled north and west". What's north and west of Lake Ladan? The Mistmoor. From the Mistmoor they fled into Rzhlev, where they split up and made for either Grevesmuhl or Berhagen.

History doesn't record it (meaning it's not in the official timeline of cerilia) but some of the Brecht fled south, into Kal Kalathor. But those who did were killed by goblin armies who had been commissioned by Uncle Basil. When the Vos of Molochev returned to reclaim their land, the few Brecht armies that were occupying Molochev fled into Berhagen.

Actually, history (i.e. canon) does record it - it's stated in TotHW that some Brecht fled south.

But, it also says that the goblins only hemmed the Brecht in before the Battle of Lake Ladan - the goblins didn't kill the Brecht forces fleeing from that debacle; the Vos did.


Point being: Molochev was occupied by Brecht armies between the years of 1137HC and 1140HC but were never invested and thus, they did not constitute a Brecht nation.

Now who's presenting personal opinion as fact?

[Magnus Argent]

See my post above.

If you recall, I did ask where you were getting your information from because. I went on to say "Clearly I am missing something that you're seeing."


The Vos raided into the Tarvan Waste. They pillaged Sefra, and took away many slaves.

Ok, great. But let's recall the context in which you originally presented this information. You stated that there are people in the Tarvan Wastes with mixed Khinasi/Vos heritage. Despite the fact that Serfa did, indeed, exist and the Vos did, indeed pillage it, there is no indication that they remained in the area. They were raiders, not settlers, correct?


What really doesn't make sense is for a great goblin nation to sit around for centuries not doing anything about a group of humans sitting directly above them. Because, you know, the Vos where there since Deismaar, but the goblins were there for thousands of years before that...

TotHW outright states that Kal Kalthor was not always as expansive as it is today. And they presumedly had heavy losses at Mt. Deismaar.


They were there for approximately 3 years. That doesn't say to me that they "were just passing through."

How do you figure 3 years?


You better reread that passage again. It states, "... and the nobles among them met to divide up their newly gained southern Vos territories."

I know it says that. In fact, I quoted that in an earlier post.


That says to me that they were staying, and had every intention of keeping said territory.

Yes, they met to divide up their newly-gained southern Vos territories.. which tells us that they had not previously done so. And, yes, it's reasonable to presume they had every intention of staying. But what happened next? What event occurred that interrupted their meeting..?


Actually, history (i.e. canon) does record it - it's stated in TotHW that some Brecht fled south.

Actually, according to canon, history does NOT record it. In fact, very few historians recall the goblin's part in the Battle of Lake Ladan. Look at the official Timeline of Cerilia. Where does IT say the Brecht forces fled?


But, it also says that the goblins only hemmed the Brecht in before the Battle of Lake Ladan - the goblins didn't kill the Brecht forces fleeing from that debacle; the Vos did.

I think you might be confusing events.. TotHW states that a few of the Brecht forces fled south from the frozen battlefield of Lake Ladan, acknowledging that this tidbit of information contradicts what historical records say ("historical records" being the official "Timeline of Cerilia", I think). But then it goes on to say that the goblins "rose up and slew the few Brecht troops that assembled on the southern shore."

So, those who fled "south" got as far as the shoreline. I don't see any indication that they fled further into Kal Kalthor much less back into Molochev.


Now who's presenting personal opinion as fact?

In this instance, I don't really think you're presenting personal opinion as fact. I just think you misunderstand what the facts are. Or, who knows, perhaps I do. For example, I see a passage in HotGB that states "after a few easily won victories, the Brecht mostly squabbled over the spoils and those they expected to gather after future battles." I also see that, as the eve of the Battle of Lake Ladan in 1140HC, the leaders of the Brecht forces were still arguing about the division of spoils. The only reason they stopped arguing is because Basil attacked them and the Battle of Lake Ladan ensued.

I don't see how any of that translates to a Brecht nation in Molochev. But maybe I missed a passage in the source material that states something to the effect of "The Brecht nobles invested the provinces of Molochev and remained there for three years where they created (a short-lived) Brecht nation."

Is that the case?