The Birthright Domain rules

[Mark_Aurel]

I'd like to see some thoughts here from everyone - a discussion of the system itself. Basically, things like:

- Which parts are too complex? Can anything be done about it?
- Which parts are too sketchy? Is there anything that needs fleshing out?
- Does any part of the system take too long? Bookkeeping, dice rolling, etc.
- Is there anything you think is "unrealistic" or unnecessarily restricted?
- Is there any lack of balance to it? Does one type of holding generally give less "clout" than the others?

If you were to alter the system, what would you do?
- Would you remove anything?
- Would you add anything?
- Is there anything you'd do differently?

Does the system as is give each character class a satisfying role to play? Are there any parts you don't like about any given class?

Do you like the system just as it is, and wouldn't change a comma even if someone put a gun to your head? Would you implement radical change?

Most importantly: What house rules do you use?

Now, I'm not expecting anyone to provide the Answer. I do hope, however, that we can get some good thoughts and ideas going here.

[Arch-Sorcerer Gargamel]

Create a priestly counterpart to the Magician, to lower the overall magic level of the setting (to where its supposed to be).

The battle system is really weak, but I'm not sure how I'd fix it myself. I don't like warcards, I used Battlesystem in my games. Also, I haven't seen the official birthright naval rules (Cerilian seas or something) but naval combat seems to take after warcard system, too vague.

I don't think that Travis Doom's conversion properly allowed for enough randomness in calculation of taxes and whatnot. There should be high points and low points.

However, I really enjoy most of the system, I just believe that there is always room for improvement.

[spehar]

Are we talking about from 2nd Ed or from one of the conversion manuals?

Gargamel: The tax collectio chart is simply to provide the averages and to simplify game play. If you don't like statistical averages then rolling is equally fine. Assuming standard distribution though, you'll average the number's in the chart.

[Mark_Aurel]

Primarily 2e - though I'd certainly like a mention of what was good and not in the various conversion manuals as well.

However, I really enjoy most of the system, I just believe that there is always room for improvement.

Any specific areas? The battle system was pointed out. Other areas? Suggestions?

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Mark_Aurel
'd like to see some thoughts here from everyone - a discussion of the system itself.

Here's my two coppers:
--I think one of the key problems with the tax collections and holding income is the different die types. if they were all based on a specific die system (1d4) it would simplify things tremendously.
--the law claims also need help. If you don't have good bookkeeping records, the system is impossible to use with any speed.
--the entire war system needs some SERIOUS clarification and detail. To mnay of the rules are vague (pillaging and occupation) and to open to arguement.
--burn the war card method of combat. Using warcards for units and the map is fine, but the warcards for the combat sequences need help, bad.
--Kill battle magic. It has no place in the system in its current form. Realm magic and standard spells that effect large numbers of people are sufficient.
--Trade Routes need major cleanup. I prefer to base them on guild level rather than province level. I also drop the RP collect from their income. In fact, I actually charge 1 RP to maintain them like a Ley Line.
--in the original boxed set it says something to the effect of there are only 80-100 wizards of significant power. The book of Magecraft threw that number out the window. I'd like to see wizards brough back under control and made a oddity rather than common place. That was one of the best things about Birthright IMO.
--I would like to see an expanded version of loyalty. The three generic ranks is a bit to narrow for my blood. A system of 1-10 type thing would be a bit more to my liking.
-- I would like to see temples given a bit more of a central role and a bit more clout or authority. They generally are overlooked in many campaigns and are left to the mercy of the landed regent. I think the churchs would generally have a bit more influence on a regents actions and have the ability to hold the regent a bit more accountable for his actions. Though this is more roleplaying then rule specific...
--I think druids need to come more to the fore-front. They are virtually non-existent in the original boxed set. Rules for their collection of RP from temples or sources would be nice.

[Mark_Aurel]

Very good post, Lawgiver - I wish more people'd give some feedback like that.

[Mithrandir]

I would personally like to see the domain actions tied into the adventure action better. What I mean to say is that the current rules stand almost idependent from the role-playing action. True I know what happens to a Law Holding when I contest it, but as a DM I need to be able to describe what's happening when the PCs go adventuring in this domain. The current rules give a fairly broad definition of a law Holding:"Law holdings represent bureaucrats, constables, taxmen, highway bandits, rebel organizations....". Clearly then a regent's method of "contesting" each one of these holdings varies with the type of holding. (you deal with bandits quite differently then you deal with bureaucrats, even though sometimes it's hard to tell the difference;)) Also, a level 2 province can only support a level 2 law holding, but according to the book of regency, a regent will have all kinds of headaches if only has a level 2 holding in a level 8 province. This make perfect sense in terms of rukes, but it brings up the question of what these levels represent. It can't just be a bigger goverment system, because the population wouldn't stop a mad and/or determined regent from building a huge goverment, unless the arguement is made that a level 2 holding employs a huge percentage of the population and that doesn't make sense. Also, what is a source holding? I understand that it represents "mastery of control of the contiously renewed mystical essence of the living land" but what is that? If I want to build a guild, I construct a building and start a buisness. What I am I doing when I create/contest/etc. a source holding? all in all I just want to see rational real world type explanations of all the domain actions.

[Lord Eldred]

Overall I like the system the way it is for domain turns however there are some minor complaints.

1. When doing domain turns with regents, players who are not regents get bored. I suppose you could play sessions without your non-regents but they need to be on stand by just in case anything needs to be role-played.

2. How do people get in a bidding war for domain actions for things like espionage? If it is suppose to be in secret how can someone keep on bidding more regency or gold bars to increase or decrease the chance of successful outcome?

3. How does a DM keep track of all the NPC regent actions? If the NPCs do nothing they will soon fall way behind the PCs but if you take time to take action for each regent how will you have time for your family?

These are the only issues I have come accross in the game so far. Otherwise I like it.

[Mark_Aurel]

Excellent feedback all - keep it coming. Much of what you've posted has already been accounted for in the drafts for the official 3e conversion.

[spehar]

Here are all the problems with birthright in 2nd ed (that i can think of now anyway)

- needs to be more incentive for playing non-blooded characters
- races aren't balanced
- priests are completely out of whack!
- the magician class needs work
- knowing languages should be rare
- increasing bloodline strength was to easy
- getting regency should be more common
- awnshegh need a LOT of work
1. awnshegh arent consistent within the rules
2. no rules for making an awnshegh/ershegh
3. the blood of azrai needs to be expanded on
4. i know theres more...

- a lot of blood abilities are out of whack
- province sizes need to be harder to level up
- province sizes also need to be restricted to how often they can be ruled
- trade route rules are BROKEN.
- regency bidding should be clarified
- loyalty levels need expanded
- rules need to exist for non-standard realms (ie elven realms)
- regency class collection has flaws
more random events
- id like to see courts do more
- domain actions. ugh. ill just say this. mustering units should have some limitations
- military...dbl ugh. a few non popular points.
1. irregulars ROCK!
2. a lot of people get confused with the declare war action. needs clarified.
3. moving units an friendly space but not within ur own country. u might not even have ur own country. ie mercs and temples

- birthright tried doing a semi specialty priest thing with there priests. it was a complete flop since it was so broken. could be done in 3rd ed with prestige classes. trick is to do it right.

- who is the cold rider?
- a lot of the realm and battle spells were broken

all i can think of off hand

[Arch-Sorcerer Gargamel]

I will elaborate on my views:

Its too difficult to be an independent wizard regent. Wizards can generate no gold, yet need gold to do many domain actions and cast Realm magic, which is silly.

A priest version of magician would make sense, seeing as to how there seems to be too many priests running around for the level of magic in the campaign.

There should be covert operations. If you can't perform Espionage operations without everyone knowing, what's the point. Also, the idea of covert holdings should be explored.

In addition to ruling up provinces, there should be migration and refugee rules. I'm sure when elves take over a new province they aren't going to leave the current inhabitants and they aren't going to replace them very quickly.

I would like to see more emphasis placed on cities. Perhaps some major cities should be independent provinces (Like Anuire) since often cities are vastly different than the country sides.

Buildings and constructions should play a larger role. Castles, palaces, harbors, military bases, roads, and city walls should all play more importance. The existence of special structures could also be a possibility and add flavor to the campaign. Monuments, similar to many rules floating around the internet could be implemented and have rules created for them. I'm sure Berhagen would like to build a Great Wall to shield themselves from Vosgard and Rzhlev. Also, more minor constructions could have effects on provinces and entire realms such as specific mines, cathedrals, etc. There is plenty of room for these to be explored.

A commodity/resource system should take the place of the current trade routes. This way, trade routes wouldn't just exist just to say I'm making money. It could also have special circumstances and prestige for realms that have good resources. If most of the gold in Anuire comes from Mhoried, then it is that much more important to keep out of the hands of the Gorgon and Tael. Trade routes could be used to spread goods throughout the land, rather than simple gold generation. Trade routes could have multiple commodities, because trade routes are just the paths that merchants take.

I'd like to see the oceans developed more. Naval rules, as well as the possibility of ocean/underwater provinces. Not every ocean area need be a province, just the ones in use. Guild, law and source holding could be generated from these 'provinces.' The province level wouldn't neccesarily be the number of people living there, but could be the fishing/guild potential, or the traffic of trade routes through that stretch of ocean. In addition the sea life could create enough mebhaighl for sources.

Underground and Underwater provinces. I'm not sure if there are any intelligent underwater lives, but I thought I'd throw this in anyway. The dwarves could go deep enough underground to where they shouldn't affect the surface province level. This would add a dimension to dwarves and subterranean humanoids. Oceanic awnshegh could control certain underwater provinces. It could be worked out, I'm sure of it.

The warcard (and possibly unit) system is terrible. I'm not quite what to suggest here, but it should be fixed. This goes the same for military generation. Levies decrease province level, but where do the normal units come from?

Perhaps another holding type can be utilized. A holding type that uses the same number that sources use to determine their level maximum. This would represent protected (undeveloped) nature level (by druids) of the province. This makes more sense than sources, because what are druids going to do with collections of arcane magical power? They could get regency from this and half as much from temples (druids still are religious figures).

Travel times should be fixed. That is to say, the distances given by the maps are hard to adjudicate. Maybe I'm just reading them wrong. More smaller scale maps would be nice. If anyone is so inclined.

I'm at a blank, but I'm sure I'll have more soon.

[Lawgiver]

-the time it takes for communications between regents of different provinces needs to be clarrified. Many PCs attempt to abuse the privelage of communication. They assume that a message from Talinit to Avanil arrives like email or something.

-One item with military units that may be a bit hard to implement would be personalities of troop commanders. For instance, it can take a few days to get word from a PC's capital city to the outer edges of some realms. By the time the orders are received the commanding officer may have moved on or used his best judgement and proceeded with an counter-attack against invaders even though the PC (who is not leading his troops) wished the troops to fall back. Just a bit of realism that adds flavor. Good luck on figuring out how to implement it without DM arbitration though. :-)

-Info on ernshegh is all but void. Are they the blood of azrai but good? OR are their powers from another source? Is it my choice or an uncontrolled transformation?

-As Eldred stated, there needs to be more emphasis on non-regent PCs. Lackeys find themselves idle many times or turning into errand boys who must obey the regents every whim.

-Suggestions on how to handle playing with multiple reents should be offered. Its very hard to play Birthright with large groups based on the standard rules. If you don't involve role-playing it turns into a turn based biding and rolling session. But if you try to throw in role-playing you are limited because it makes no sense for the regents of three realms to consistently be adventuring together or attempting to role-play a random event that deals with a single province in one realm.

[Mark_Aurel]

Excellent feedback. More takers?

[Rcook12a]

First off I want to say that the system works and that means alot to me since I have never seen another system that combined Strategy and RolePlaying. With that in mind these are some changes I would make or have made in my campaign.

1. All of my players live in the same kingdom and adventuring is the main method for resolving realm actions. I don't even let the players use the book, if for instance the "king" wants to increase tax income in a province by imporving the law there he either travels there or has the local authorities resources expanded (IE the regent sends money to hire more men to police the area and collect taxes; a large short term cost for long term gain). More oportunities and examples of using adventuring to accomplish realm actions would be excellant.

2. I don't like the fact that a Regent can gather taxes in a province when he has absolutely no legal (LAW) control of the province. Province ownership seems the largest steady source of income but all you have to do to get the money is have a magical tie (blood line) to the land, this makes no sence to me. Unfortunately I don't feel like reworking the whole system so I leave it alone. I don't think provinces should generate any income only regency. Income should be generated in descending amounts as follows Law (taxes), Guild and trade routes (trade), Temple (religious tithes) and Sources should generate some small amount of income just to be fair to wizards (it after all a game).

3. One of the other posters already mentioned a more in depth look at population changes and migration. I agree that this should be more significant than money and time. Especially in the case of inter racial conflicts. Elves would not allow themselves to be ruled by any other races in my opinion and I think racial conflicts would be more significant than in our own world where they are very significant.

There are few other things I would change but these are the "BIG Three."
Regards
Randy