PDA

View Full Version : Bloodtheft



gav
03-06-2002, 12:25 AM
I have read the rules for Birthright 3E ver 3.08 and tried to impliment them in my campaign. The way I read the rules is as follows:

if you kill a blooded character with say 10 Bloodscore then 10*8=80 RP are unleashed on the blooded characters within 80ft (radius?). each blooded character is affected by their share of the RP to a maximum of twice their blood score. eg a character with bloodscore 20 could take 40 RP. This is then transferred into bloodscore points by dividing by 8 ie 5 points in this case. So he would move to 25 bloodscore.

This seems to mean that anyone who singlehandedly commmits bloodtheft of someone with 25% of their own bloodscore would get maximum benifit and that the benifit would be an increase in bloodscore of 25%.

This would mean that high bloodscore characters would be out to kill low level blooded chracters, whereas the low level characters could only benifit 25% of their small total if they were to kill a high blooded chracter.

My problem with this is that a guy with bloodscore 20 kills 4 other bloodscore ten guys (one at a time) and increases from 20 to 25 to 31 to 38 to 47. While a bloodscore 4 guy would go from 4 to 5 to 6 to 7 to 8.

I thought that the idea was to go out and kill strong blooded characters to improve not kill off weak ones.

Comments?

Gav

Mark_Aurel
03-06-2002, 07:39 AM
Ok, I think you misunderstood somewhere. I'll try and explain it a bit better.

Let's use this example: A group of scions slay another. There are six scions to divide the victim's bloodline. The victim had a bloodline of 12, releasing 96 RP.

96/6 = 16.

The first scion of the group that did the dirty deed has a score of 12 for his bloodline. Since 16 is greater than 12, he gains 16 RP.

Another scion in the same group has a score of 18. Since 16 is less than 18, he gains nothing.

If one scion had a very low score of 6, he'd absorb 12 RP, and the remaining 4 RP would be distributed among the remaining five scions.

Note: No increase in bloodline took place. In order for a character's bloodline to increase, he'd need to spend RP, specifically, four times his bloodline. Thus, someone with a 12 bloodline needs to spend 48 RP to get to 13. To go from a 6 bloodline to a 7, you need to spend 24 RP. And to go from 18 to 19, you need to spend 72 RP.

The RP gained through usurpation thus will usually only catapult you part of the way to improving your bloodline.

I'm not quite sure where you got the "divide by 5, put back into bloodline from" - I can't find any such reference.

If a scion with a bloodline of 20 were to slay four scions with a bloodline of 10, he'd gain 40 RP the first time, then 40 RP the second time - now he'd have 80 RP, and the option to spend these to improve his bloodline to 21. After slaying two more, he'd have 84 RP, and the option to improve his bloodline yet again to 22.

The system in 3.08 is much better suited to the group dynamics of D&D - rather than let the fighters get all the bloodline improvements, it sort of splits them up.

gav
03-06-2002, 08:46 PM
Thanks for your post.

I got the divide by 8 (not 5) from the rules used for commoners when they transfer RP to Bloodscore. Where did you get the rule that it costs four times your bloodscore in RP to increase bloodscore by 1. I thought that it cost one more than your Bloodscore in RP to increase bloodscore by one.

What happens to the excess RP as I thought that only regent scions can use RP for domain actions. Do scions and regents then store it up to use later or is it wasted?

Do the other scions in your example get multiple bites at the cherry then when there is excess RP remaining (if they haven't taken their maximum increase?

Gav

Arch-Sorcerer Gargamel
03-06-2002, 09:57 PM
What is the justification behind changing the bloodtheft system? Was there a problem with it? I thought the regency from the dead regent was supposed to go to his heir. So what happens when a scion who has no regency is slain by a commoner?

I still prefer the through the heart, get the benefits method of bloodtheft. Merely killing someone and then getting blasted by regency doesn't sound like the chance discovery that bloodtheft was supposedly uncoverd by.

gav
03-06-2002, 10:51 PM
I was under the impression that when bloodtheft occurred it was only the bloodscore points that escaped the body and may be taken up by blooded characters (as RP as it turns out). Does that mean that a murdered Regent with 25 RP and a bloodscore of 30 releases 30*8+25=245 RP to be soaked up by scions with regent characters keeping the RP they collect and choosing to spend these RP on domain actions or 4 times their bloodscore to increase their bloodscore by 1.

I thought that the bloodscore increase occurred whether they liked it or not.

Also what happens to the excess RP left over that non-regent scions absorb. Is it wasted?

Mark_Aurel
03-07-2002, 12:31 AM
What is the justification behind changing the bloodtheft system? Was there a problem with it? I thought the regency from the dead regent was supposed to go to his heir. So what happens when a scion who has no regency is slain by a commoner?

There are several different justifications:
1) The bloodline system is different. This also requires a different system for bloodtheft. It would be a tad unbalancing to allow characters to advance in a basically 3d6-based system in the same way they advanced in a basically d100-oriented system.
2) There is a group dynamic to D&D - the old system pretty much screwed everyone but fighters when it came to bloodtheft. This system shares the goods. A wizard might have as much to do with the actual killing of an awnshegh as a fighter; however, he'd not reap as much of a reward due to the fact that the fighter would generally be the one that got to do the final blow through the heart routine.
3) The final blow through the heart routine was pretty unclear.
4) Some of the products mention different processes for bloodtheft - read the Vampire's description, for an example. It's also pretty routine that commoners become blooded through killing an awnshegh. The pierce through the heart rule does not handle that well.
5) When push comes to shove, a rule mechanic really is just one way of viewing a story-based twist. If you converted BR to, say, Alternity, you'd also need to adapt a different bloodline and bloodtheft mechanic. It'd probably end up similar to the one in Travis' conversion.
6) Note that this system for bloodlines is based off an ability score rationale. How often do player characters in your campaigns increase theirs?
7) The reason for making it an ability score is to keep as much as possible of the flavor of the 2e BR system, while preserving the balance issues in 3e. Scions do not have *bad* ability scores - it's simply that the few exceptional commoners that go on adventures with them are just that - exceptional. Note that I assume a 4d6, roll seven times mechanic here.

I was under the impression that when bloodtheft occurred it was only the bloodscore points that escaped the body and may be taken up by blooded characters ...

No. Look again; the system only mentions a release of RP based upon the scion's bloodline score, not any RP he may have had. So a scion with a 30 bloodline (that's pretty high, btw) would unleash 30x8=240 RP, and that would be divided among any applicable scions. Excess RP is lost. RP can be spent in any way you please - think of RP as prestige as much as mystical power; I'm sure you'd get a lot of increased prestige if you managed to slay the Gorgon. ;)

Blood score increase happens whether they like it or not - if they accumulate a lot of RP. Check the section above the usurpation section for more details.

spehar
03-07-2002, 12:37 AM
The biggest justification in changing the system is this. I'm the Gorgon. I'm an evil bastard and I want us much power as I can get. If I kill a blooded scion with a strength of 1 even though my strength is 50+, I still get 1 point. What's to stop me from continously going around and bloodthefting every scion, including children, that I can find?

In addition, the system was changed to fit the 3rd Ed theme. Which is why a lot of minor things changed such as even the bloodline strength score.

Look under changing bloodline strength for info in RP and increasing the bloodline. It's either right before the blood abilities or right after. I'm to lazy to look right now.

Regency points transferring make a lot more sense then actual bloodline strength. In essence, regency points can make up strength but the vice versa cannot be true. Mind you, you are not recieving, directly, any bloodline strength by the violent death of a scion. You are also not recieving their regency points they had stored. The scions divine strength is exploding in the form of regency.

Mark_Aurel
03-07-2002, 12:41 AM
Excellent point. There was always a lack of believability in the old system - "why doesn't the Gorgon have a bloodline strength of about, oh, 1500 or so?"

gav
03-07-2002, 03:08 AM
Yep, Sorry, missed the four times your Birthright score.

Thanks for the clarification about RP stored by the victim and RP generated by Bloodscore exploding.

One more dumb question.

What can non-regent scions do with RP (or is this just street cred) other than increase Bloodscore improvements. Can he use domain actions - assuming he has the RP and the gold even though he's not a regent?

Mark_Aurel
03-07-2002, 03:38 AM
Well, in general, non-regent scions can just use the RPs to increase their bloodline. However, as the rules are written, even non-regents can take certain Domain Actions - Create Holding, for instance. I suppose you could use the RPs in those cases.

I hope to clarify this issue further later on.

blitzmacher
03-07-2002, 04:01 AM
I still use the 2e system for bloodlines, and bloodtheft. I love the 'there can be only one' feel to the game. A wizard's dagger can pierce a heart just as easily as a sword. I think only a stupid wizard would not know how to wear an opponent down with spells then put them to sleep or daze them then strike the victims heart. I also stick with bloodline point gets transfered not regency, anything else ruins the flavor of it. As for the gorgon having a 1500 bloodline score is a load of something or other. I think some people forget scions are few, and only the foolish would fall into his hands or take him on one on one.

Mark_Aurel
03-07-2002, 04:49 AM
A wizard's dagger can pierce a heart just as easily as a sword. I think only a stupid wizard would not know how to wear an opponent down with spells then put them to sleep or daze them then strike the victims heart.

This tastes a lot of metagaming. It's besides the point, anyway - the point was, it's far more likely that a fighter will score a killing blow than a wizard. This assumes the regular D&D party dynamics.

The Gorgon having a bloodline of 1500 or so is, in fact a very real scenario, if you use the 2e rules, and the bloodtheft rules there. If the Gorgon kills about one scion a year, that's 1524 since Deismaar. Now. He doesn't have to slay that many, either, using the Rulebook. He has a tighmaevril weapon. If the average scion has a bloodline score of 20.1 (yep - actually, more in the old days), the Gorgon would gain about 10 points each time. So, he'd have to slay an average of 150 scions; you need also consider that most of his victims would likely have a higher bloodline than 20. I'd think he's slain that many over the years. It is entirely logical to presume, given those rules, that his bloodline would be 1500 or more.

That score is quite absurd, of course. It is simply a weakness of the system. The system in Doom's manual reflects better on this - and a statement given in the Ruins of Empire book, page 53, that the Gorgon "harvests bloodlines like a vintner harvests grapes" - that makes a lot more sense if he doesn't gain any benefit from weaker bloodlines.

gav
03-07-2002, 05:27 AM
Thanks for the response.

If scions can use RPs it might give them a taste of what a Regent can do and get them intersted in becoming a regent.

It may also open up the possibility that Superstar Heros that collect RP from killing evil scions could use their "influence" to affect trade (by endorsing guilds), law levels (I won't rob this province - Richard the Bloodstealer lives here), or transferring RP to GBs (paid endorsements - I used to like him until he sold out).

Excellent plot oppertunities for regent PCs dealing with these pesky heros or Scion PCs to mess with the delecate balance of those in power.

Arch-Sorcerer Gargamel
03-07-2002, 04:07 PM
If I duel another Scion to the death, its moronic that every other person in the room, spectating, gets a piece of my glory. I'm confused by the mentioning of a party dynamic? What is this party dynamic, if I'm not mistaken, there have been parties since the dawn of RPGs and its always been a good idea to have a variety of members around. Besides, dividing everything equally just because more people are around reeks of communism. What motivation does the rogue have of putting much effort into the fight, if he's going to benefit regardless?

The Gorgon harvesting bloodlines is a possibility, however, that could just mean that he kills a lot of people. He could accidently kill them on the first strike alot, thus losing out on bloodtheft. Humans are terribly weak, and how many humans seriously think they are going to go through Kal-Saitherak (rough terrain) and challenge the Gorgon. The Gorgon have a bloodline of 1500 is ridiculous, quite like the 19th level fighter that gets to 20th level by killing 0-level child orcs for an entire level.

RPs are a connection to the land, not a direct manifestation of bloodline strength. It is explained to be an extension of your ability to rule. Not every blooded murderer has this ability. It also requires a lot of money to do anything, which is usually at the level of difficult to raise such and such amount.

Mark_Aurel
03-07-2002, 05:06 PM
If I duel another Scion to the death, its moronic that every other person in the room, spectating, gets a piece of my glory.

Then duel him to the death a bit further away from those people.

Yea, dividing experience points among party members reeks of communism. Same thing with magical items. Why strive to divide rewards fairly in a party at all? So everyone can have a bit of the fun, maybe? The fact of the matter remains still - the original bloodtheft rules were pretty much made with fighters in mind. Not clerics, not rogues, not wizards.

The Gorgon harvesting bloodlines is a possibility, however, that could just mean that he kills a lot of people.

That's not what's implied in the passage I mentioned - it's implied that he helps regents grow strong so he in turn can grow strong off them. Why would people have to go to Kal-Saitharak? Does the Gorgon just sit by and wait for them? He could have them kidnapped, he could go down there and get them himself, if he wanted. Who's going to stop him?

The Gorgon have a bloodline of 1500 is ridiculous

Yes, it is ridiculous. It is *not* ridiculous if you follow the original rules to their logical conclusion, and do some assumptions that are not unreasonable. Slaying one scion every ten years isn't too high a ratio, I'd think. And even if you had him slay just one every twenty years, he'd still be at 750. Now, if he'd slain about one scion every _century_, he'd be at 150, from a starting point of 0. I doubt he started at 0. I don't think having slain just 15 scions since Deismaar sounds appropriate, either. So, going back to being logical, within the bloodtheft rules as offered in the rulebook, the Gorgon should be at 1500+.

blitzmacher
03-08-2002, 01:38 AM
Why is it that people that do all the hard work have to share the benefits of their labor with others because those others where there and watched them do it. And why should I duel a character further away from others, are you suggesting metagaming. It doesn't sound like more fun it sounds like a bunch of whiny babies wanting someone elses candy. I think you overlook the abilities of other classes if you believe the old system was made for fighters. In my campaign a 1st level PC Sorcerer committed bloodtheft on a 3rd level ranger who had challenged him.
If the Gorgon can do what he wanted in original rules then why has he taken over the world yet. No matter what rules you use he should have the power to do just that, what stops him.

Mark_Aurel
03-08-2002, 02:54 AM
What in the old rules stopped the Gorgon from taking over the world? Nothing. Nothing in the rules, anyway. There, is, however, a vague implication that he's somehow bound to his fortress. It's a pretty interesting question, actually, and one I've been pondering myself - it also applies to the other awnsheghlien.

In my campaign a 1st level PC Sorcerer committed bloodtheft on a 3rd level ranger who had challenged him.

How? A sleep spell? Unless that sorcerer had something up his sleeve, a 3rd-level ranger will generally bloody murder a 1st-level sorcerer.

I'm not overlooking the abilities of the other classes. It worked well for paladins and rangers, too. It did not work well for characters who weren't melee-oriented.

Let's examine it a bit:
-You need to pierce someone's heart with a pointy object. Rather like a vampire.
-How does the rules handle that? There are no rules for hit location. Oh ... wait.
-Called shots. Yep, that's it. Take a -4 or -8 penalty to hit the heart.
-Now, it's not just a matter of hitting the heart. It's a matter of piercing the heart as the killing blow. That requires knowing how many hit points the NPC has, so you can start hitting at the right time, unless every roll you make is a called shot to the heart...
-Now, if you used the -10 rules, it gets a little easier - knock him down to negative hit points, and stab him through the heart. Pretty heroic - mutilate the dying guy.

Is that how you handle it? You should, if you want to follow the 2e rules to the letter.

bunch of whiny babies wanting someone elses candy

So, if an adventuring party were fighting some awnshegh, and the combat went like - the fighter gets paralyzed in the first round, the wizard and priest pummels it to near death with spells, then the fighter's condition ends, and he strikes the killing blow with his sword (taking a -8 penalty, of course). The fighter did nothing, except strike the final blow, yet he gets the primary reward. Is that fair?

I'm not overlooking the abilities of the other classes. How, exactly, did the old system permit you to perform bloodtheft with spells? Wizards aren't about to foolishly risk their lives by jumping into melee with their daggers. Or are they? The big problem with the entire "wear them down with spells, then pierce their heart" is simply that you don't know how many hit points they have. It's a product of a poor system if you're forced to change your battle tactics around a lot just to gain what should be a nice little extra reward.

Arch-Sorcerer Gargamel
03-08-2002, 07:26 AM
The campaign setting is designed to be melee oriented. I'm personally a fan of people earning experience more by their actions, and less by killing things. Is it fair that the paralyzed fighter slew an unconcious being just because it was labled an awnshegh? Is it fair that kids roam around my school in the Porsches their parents bought them? I like the system designed around primarily warrior kings and backstabbing assassins. For instance, it is far less magical (which seems to be the trend in most of the threads on these boards).

Here a few reasons the Gorgon has not taken over the world:

1. There are a lot of people on the world. Most of them don't like the Gorgon. When the Gorgon becomes a personal threat, they will likely band together (at least temporarily) until the Gorgon is no longer a personal threat. The Gorgon is not singly more powerful than every combination of people in Cerilia.

2. You only get 3 actions in a domain turn, just like everyone else. Sure he has vassals, but most people are still not his vassals. Spreading out 3 actions in infinite directions is not recommended.

3. The other old Gods have True blooded individuals somewhere, they just are dormant for some reason. I hate the idea that only Azrai has any true scions around right now, its kind of stupid.

4. There are spells that lower magic resistance.

5. There are magic items >= +3 enchantment.

6. It wouldn't make much of a story to have the Gorgon be invincible, rather the nearly invincible.

7. The Gorgon doesn't want the whole world, he just wants to ruin everyone else's.

Other points:

Make a simple hit-location chart (maybe even only for the killing blow).

Following rules to the letter isn't very fun most of the time anyway.

Duels are often spectacular events (in the sense that they draw a crowd). Running, just because there are people around doesn't make sense.

If a sorcerere or wizard doesn't have something up his sleeve, he deserves to get killed by anything that comes at him/her.

Maybe certain spells should be able to perform bloodtheft if they kill?

Maybe its true that slaying scions who are much weaker than you is abusive in the 2ed game, sometimes, there must be suspension of disbelief (there's magic in the game for crying out loud). Perhaps long periods of inactivity (hibernation, etc.) have reduced the Gorgon's bloodline. Perhaps mismanagement has reduced his bloodline (he probably should have taken over Cerilia by now, eh?). Maybe he has some sort of item so that he can spend his bloodline strength on candybars or something(possibly some lotion, I'd imagine he has dry skin). Regardless, I'm not excited about the idea of every time a scion dies there is an explosion of some sort (fruit flavor).

I believe the mechanic has something to do with why his bloodline is so low. He can kill hundreds of scions in a year, most of them probably just get their heads chopped off.

Perhaps I do believe that stronger bloodlines should give off more power (one principle behind doom's system) and that there should be some sort of limitation against 'harvesting' tainted scions. Maybe a percentage of the bloodstrength should be released (I refuse to acknowledge an ability score to represent divine power, I'd rather have something with a bit different of an idea behind it). Then, that percentage has a multiplier, based on how much stronger or weaker the stolen bloodline is than your bloodline. Normal rounding rules should apply. Just don't tell me that there should be a big ball of regency, just because its nice.

Go 1st level sorcerers, beat those Rangers. (Go Rangers, beat Celtic)

Mark_Aurel
03-08-2002, 08:42 AM
All decent reasons - number seven is perhaps the best, as it deals with motivation. I think the topic would warrant further discussion.

Following rules to the letter - yes. Make house rules to change the rules that don't fit you - yes. If the DM makes a habit of breaking the rules, it'll quickly lead to player frustration.

Duels are spectactular events. That doesn't mean most spectators want to stand within sword's reach. Most duelists tend to move around a bit - spectators move even further away. No one wants to get accidentally maimed.

Well, the idea that there's a release of energy when a scion dies - ever watch Highlander? You can be pretty sure that part of the idea behind bloodlines came from that. Also, the opening scene in Lord of the Rings would be a good example of what would happen if the Gorgon died. I mean, think logically about it - the old gods made a really big explosion (Deismaar) that split up their energies between lots of people when they died - why shouldn't scions that are nearly their level, like, the Gorgon? Why shouldn't scions release energy in a similar fashion?

blitzmacher
03-09-2002, 12:40 AM
I believe the reason the gorgon doesn't have a outrageous bloodscore is largely due to pour realm management, it seems his desires have always been his downfall.
I have made no houserule that hasn't been agreed to by all the players in the group.
I do use a hit location table in combat, and each body part has its own hit points derived from the characters hit points. If the head or chest get dropped to zero hit points then the character becomes unconscious, in which a coup de gras could be done to the heart.
Everytime I think logically about D&D games I always get reminded that its a fantasy game. Maybe its because scions are not gods.