What happens if the Gorgon becomes a God?

[Kalien]

As one background theme for a possible new Anuirean PBeM, I was toying with the idea of the Gorgon achieving deity status and moving on from Aebrynis to whatever place it is the gods dwell in.

What I'm really interested in is what people think would happen in Cerilia if this came to pass?

Unless some other figure of great power arose to take the Gorgon's place, I imagine that Markazor and possibly Mur-Kilad would break away from the Gorgon's Crown - or at the very least become more independent and less dependable as vassals. Hatred between the goblins and dwarves could possibly even see some fighting between Markazor and Mur-Kilad.

Kiergard might break free and regain its independence.

There's also the question of how long would it take before the Anuirean lands actually realised what had happened? Mhoried and Elinie might be interested in an attempted conquest of Sutren Hills, Periltrees and Brushfire in Markazor, thereby gaining a much smaller border to defend against the goblins and anything coming down out of the Gorgon's Crown in the future.

And, more importantly for an Anuire-focused game, how would the Gorgon's ascendence affect 'the game of thrones' in Anuire? Mhoried could become more involved in political affairs, possibly bad news for the ambitions of Gavin Tael.

Anyway, I would appreciate any thoughts people might have.

[kgauck]

My own sense that that the Gorgon's hold on his dominions is tenuous enough that he is a satiated power. Small efforts could throw the dwarves or Kiergard into rebellion, and the goblins would rather conduct their own affairs. If the Gorgon were a god, his ability to direct a priesthood to rule would be more effective, either from a central successor (which seems unlikely) or through several states bound to his doctrine. If the Gorgon ascended, his former dominions would first aclimate to his ideology, in a way that they have not through his temporal dominion, and then in the second generation would expand.

[Doyle]

Assuming that the Gorgon is bound by the 'no direct worldly intervention by deities', that there would be a huge shift in power throughout Cerilia.

After working out that he was effectively immortal and didn't require an heir, he hasn't been interested in any form of succession and has actively destroyed those that might be strong enough to lead under the assumption that they may become a threat. This means that after he goes there is no one to keep his vassals in line - in fact they will probably turn on any resident Gorgon's Crown troops, or possibly go to war. Realms that border these vassals that have held those borders in fear of the Gorgon's next rampage would take advantage of the vassals squabbles to invade and reclaim provinces that were lost over the centuries to Raesene.

The global intrigues that the Gorgon has going on would quickly die off without his constant direction, leading to alliances being successfully made, potential hero-kings not being assassinated and many other positive things for the goodly races of Cerilia.

However, from the ashes would rise the secretive but powerful church of the Gorgon. Probably stealing worshippers from Kreisha and Belinik who might see in the Gorgon a new Azrai, from Curicean those that lust after battle and martial prowess and finally magi that might believe that access to Azrai's dark magics may now become available. Regardless of what he may give his worshippers, the god Raesene would have access to an intrigue base in excess potentially of that which he had previously put together over millenia.

Then again, perhaps Kreisha and Belinik will see him as too much of a threat, band together and bump him off ;)

my 2 c.p.,
Doyle

[Ariadne]

He is already one, as far as I know. Only a quasi deity without divine ranks, but the first step is done...

[irdeggman]

Assuming that the Gorgon is bound by the 'no direct worldly intervention by deities', that there would be a huge shift in power throughout Cerilia.

my 2 c.p.,
Doyle

This is the big one.

In order to prevent another Deismaar he would have to "agree" and follow to that pact.

So he would have to somehow make the paradigm shift in behavior somehow. That in itself can be a huge story line.

Another issue would be the relatinship between Haelyn and Raesene. While they were alive, until Deismaar that is, the relationship through Haelyn's eyes was great.

But since Raesene killed the last of the family line (Michael Roele) there might be something there.

[AndrewTall]

A lot depends on situation in the campaign, but:

On the assumption that the Gorgon he has been building towards becoming a god he should already have a substantial church - mostly likely centred on the Gorgon's Crown and headed by the Hand of Azrai. That means that he needs to Crown to remain mostly intact rather than leaving it to shatter - or risk his church being destroyed in the fighting that followed his rise.

Possibly therefore The Gorgon might approach the Swordhawk (local, tough, non too bright) and grant him the Gorgon's Crown - the Swordhawk gets the temporal power and the Gorgon the spiritual. If the Swordhawk was considered likely to be too independent Ghuralli could be a far more manipulatable successor, other alternatives would include the awnies named as the Gorgon's lieutenants although as has been pointed out the Gorgon has historically acted to stop them gaining power and so there are few good choices.

Either way the new ruler is likely to take a far more short term view than the Gorgon did - and be far less interested in ascending to Godhood. That makes them more likely to try and expand their borders. The Rjurik are poor and sparsely populated making them an uninviting target, the realms of Anuire and Brechtur are far better prey.

From the Gorgon's point of view he will be facing the dark gods, the Cold rider and his brother Haelyn as his main foes. Of these the Cold Rider is perhaps most inviting target - what would happen if the Gorgon slew the nascent god? Would the lost flock to his command or struggle against him for slaying the shadow of Azrai?

Of course the Gorgon might find his ascension does not go as planned, either only ascending 'part way' or ascending more swiftly than expected (for example on slaying a major scion unexpectedly - either way he is unlikely to have a ocnvenient successor waiting with the results suggested above.

Other impacts from a 'shattered crown' could include the reformation of the elven realms of Tuarheviel and the Sielwode - only goblins bar unification and it is unlikely that Murkilad will aid the goblins. The Brecht could try to liberate Kiergard, but given that Rzhlev is still awaiting liberation and the Sword hawk is in the way probably not - but an internal rebellion is a probability successful or not.

As various factions struggle for dominance it is likely that some are forced to strike out from the Crown, Mhoried may not find itself bored after-all...

In my case with no gods in Cerilia (barring the Cold Rider) the Gorgon would be almost unopposed. spell-casting priests would go from being as rare as mages to suddenly common - at least amongst his clergy. This could have major theological repercussions.

Other issues would be his ability (as the only god present in such a system) to alter the 'rules of the world' to favour his philosophy. I toyed with allowing an awnshegh to gain strength not just from killing scions, but (at weak bloodlines) from killing large numbers of those in whom the gods blood is too weak to note - the unblooded (give the nobility 1,500 years of power and their genes will get everywhere). That makes a lot of minor awnies popping up all over all of a sudden - let chaos reign and the strong rise exultant.

There is also the interesting idea of a holy war in Vosgaard - the nona Vos would likely favour the Gorgon to Belinik, and the actions of ther awnshegh - can anyone see the Serpent simply ignoring the Gorgon's ascension - the strong awnies (barring Rhuobhe and the Spider) would probably be desperate to find out how the Gorgon ascended and seek to do likewise.

of course if the Gorgon had to kill another God to ascend in there place it gets even more interesting. Presumably he would kill one of the weaker gods, Nesirie, Laerme, Eloele, or possibly Kreisha (depending on how you read the True Church of vosgaard) - either way he would win enemies and allies in his rise - and his clergy would reap the rewards or pay the price.

And of course will Raidhazik stay chained without the gorgon in Kal-Saitharak? The gods protect any in his path if he escapes his chains...

[Kalien]

Thanks for people's thoughts.

In terms of the Gorgon's ascension I like the idea of everything not going exactly as Raesene had planned. Perhaps he had a detailed, carefully thought out strategy. One major step was to slay the Cold Rider (this being easier than slaying Belinik or Kreisha), but several steps remained after that. However, having slain the shadow of Azrai the Gorgon obtains a little more divine power than he thought he would, the Lost (or at least most of them and their followers) support him and he shortly gains followers from Belinik and Kreisha - this all serves to tip him over the edge to deity status.

The results for an Anuire focused game could be interesting, especially if the followers of the newly ascended Gorgon obtained included the One True Church of Vosgaard in Osoerde.

In such a scenario, the Gorgon might have made preparations but they would not be complete. The Hand of Azrai might have established a temple structure, but it is not as widespread or as established as might be wanted. Without a smooth transition from the Gorgon to his chosen successor, the Gorgon's vassal states might go through a period of unrest, rebellion, and the like - inviting Anuirean realms to attempt to claim territories off Markazor or perhaps assist an uprising in Kiergard. Meanwhile, with the attention of Anuire focused on events outside their borders, the Gorgon could establish an intrigue base within Anuire - the One True Church, perhaps gaining control of the power structure of a smaller Cuiraecite temple such as the Hidden Temple, subverting a guild or two, and the like.

Another idea I am toying with for the game is to have Anuire ruled by a council comprised of the 12 Duchies. There is great scope there to have the Gorgon use his intrigue base to influence one or two members of the council, perhaps even to subvert them. That opens up great scope for in-game plots and intrigues to keep the players busy.

[Alluveal]

There would definitely be a vaccuum of power left over. Evil always turns on itself. I imagine quite a few bad guys would die trying to procure what took him centuries to build. UNLESS he had a very specific heir named that all the other powers around him (and his vassals) respect and will pay homage to, then it's going to look like a bunch of starving vultures fighting over one corpse. The strongest will come out on top. The baddies in my mind include people like the Swordhawk.

I think it would bring about serious turmoil, and be hella fun to fun as a GM.

As for a council idea, I'm on the bandwagon that a council isn't really authentic for the "feel" of Birthright. I guess IMHO, by making a council, you are disempowering the Chamberlain and all he stands for as well as the royal bloodline of Roele. A democracy in Anuire just feels strange, but if you do give it a shot, please post your results. I'd be very curious to see how it plays out.

[geeman]

At 09:44 PM 5/4/2007, Kalien wrote:

>As one background theme for a possible new Anuirean PBeM, I was
>toying with the idea of the Gorgon achieving deity status and moving
>on from Aebrynis to whatever place it is the gods dwell in.
>
>What I`m really interested in is what people think would happen in
>Cerilia if this came to pass?
>
>Unless some other figure of great power arose to take the Gorgon`s
>place, I imagine that Markazor and possibly Mur-Kilad would break
>away from the Gorgon`s Crown - or at the very least become more
>independent and less dependable as vassals. Hatred between the
>goblins and dwarves could possibly even see some fighting between
>Markazor and Mur-Kilad.
>
>Kiergard might break free and regain its independence.
>
>There`s also the question of how long would it take before the
>Anuirean lands actually realised what had happened? Mhoried and
>Elinie might be interested in an attempted conquest of Sutren Hills,
>Periltrees and Brushfire in Markazor, thereby gaining a much smaller
>border to defend against the goblins and anything coming down out of
>the Gorgon`s Crown in the future.
>
>And, more importantly for an Anuire-focused game, how would the
>Gorgon`s ascendence affect `the game of thrones` in Anuire? Mhoried
>could become more involved in political affairs, possibly bad news
>for the ambitions of Gavin Tael.
>
>Anyway, I would appreciate any thoughts people might have.

I don`t personally see the Gorgon suddenly and without warning
ascending to godhood. To me, there is a question that should be
asked first: "What would have to happen to Cerilia BEFORE this came
to pass?" That is, what would it take for the Gorgon to ascend in
the first place? Then one might extrapolate what Cerilia would look
like in the succeeding generations.

Personally, I`ve always liked the idea that the reason the Gorgon
hasn`t already ascended is that he has not yet met the requirements
of his "heroic quest" necessary for him to "move on" to another level
of existence. He has more than enough godly matter, he`s high enough
level, and he definitely wants it, but there are some "adventure
level" things that he needs to do before he can go on. It`s
debatable if he knows what these things are himself, but I think the
most appropriate for a bastard son of the Roele family is that he
must sit upon the Iron Throne both in fact (he must plant his stony
butt on the actual chair) and as the de facto emperor of Anuire (many
Anuirean regents might not officially recognize him, but he`s
effectively in control) before he can ascend.

So, if that makes any sense, much of Cerilia would look like the
Gorgon`s Crown before he would ascend since it would probably require
a pretty massive war that would ravage the land in order to conquer
Anuire. Imagine a wide swath of land between his current realm and
the Imperial City pretty nearly wiped out. The most prominent
Anuirean rulers (Ghoere, Avanil and Boeruine) would have to be
crushed along with most of the rest of the current regents. If
anything (in fact, probably the only thing that) could get them to
unite would be an invasion by the Gorgon or some similar power, so
they would all have to be destroyed or so near as to make little
difference. Nearby realms in the Rjurik Highlands might take
advantage of the devastation to gobble up parts of Anuire. A few
Khinasi and maybe Brecht regents might also participate in a land
grab. Existing humanoid and monstrous realms (the Five Peaks,
Thurazor, Markazor) would certainly jump on the bandwagon.

There might be a large underground or rebel movement against the
Gorgon since that`s such a standard of fantasy fiction (and itself a
cool idea for an alternate BR campaign.) But as long as he has
control and maintains that control for a certain amount of time
(maybe as long as a century, but probably something more like a
generation) he`d ascend to godhood.

After his ascension, I imagine the Gorgon leaving quite a power
vacuum. His realm would be further carved up by people claiming to
be true successors to his throne. Imagine how Alexander`s empire was
carved up after he died--or, probably more realistically, what
happened to the Carolingians after the death of Charlemagne. It`d
still be a "dark age" in which people were trying to recover from a
generation (or two, or three) of destruction and oppression. In
fact, it`s nearly post-apocalyptic in tone. Banditry is
rampant. Infrastructures non-existent. Cities, towns and even
villages are fortified against attack by humanoids and lawless humans
that roam unchecked.

About the only Anuirean realms unaffected by the Gorgon`s apotheosis
could be the elves of the Sielwode whose isolationism means they can
be simply bypassed by the Gorgon. Tuarhievel`s location and politics
might not spare that land, though. A few human realms might be able
to avoid the worst of the devastation. Dhoesone and Coeranys are
remote and weak enough that they might not lose too much. Aerenwe
might be able to adopt a policy that isolates it. Mieres, of course,
could remain out of the war, but might very well declare independence
in the process to avoid having the land`s resources sapped.

After his ascension we might assume a pretty big temple structure
dedicated to him. He might not have as many total levels of temples
as other Cerilian gods, but the Hand of Azrai might be replaced (or
simply renamed) into something dedicated to the Gorgon directly and
expanded considerably. He`d have his own priests, and they would
start to gain spells in a way similar to the followers/worshippers of
the Serpent. In order to figure out any of that, though, we really
need to know what the Gorgon would be the god of. From his
personality and background, I`d guess any of the following concepts
might support his portfolio: envy, wrath, battle/war, revenge, hate,
pride, terror/fear, earth, ambition. (Note: there is no Cerilian god
of death per se, and I don`t think the Big G is really any more
qualified than any existing god, otherwise that`d be on that list
too.) Personally, I favor revenge, wrath and battle/war on that list
even though battle/war is pretty well covered by the existing gods.

Gary

[kgauck]

... you are disempowering the Chamberlain and all he stands for as well as the royal bloodline of Roele.

I think the Chamberlain is an artifact. No serious regent cares what he thinks. I cannot even imagine that he pretends to some importance. Certainly there are idealists who form some legitamist party in Anuire, but it is difficult for them to produce a serious candidate, much less elevate this person to the throne. Given the age, this is like looking for the Merovingian candidate for the throne of France.

[dalor]

--- Gary <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET> wrote:
> After his ascension we might assume a pretty big
> temple structure
> dedicated to him. He might not have as many total
> levels of temples
> as other Cerilian gods, but the Hand of Azrai might
> be replaced (or
> simply renamed) into something dedicated to the
> Gorgon directly and
> expanded considerably. He`d have his own priests,
> and they would
> start to gain spells in a way similar to the
> followers/worshippers of
> the Serpent. In order to figure out any of that,
> though, we really
> need to know what the Gorgon would be the god of.
> From his
> personality and background, I`d guess any of the
> following concepts
> might support his portfolio: envy, wrath,
> battle/war, revenge, hate,
> pride, terror/fear, earth, ambition. (Note: there
> is no Cerilian god
> of death per se, and I don`t think the Big G is
> really any more
> qualified than any existing god, otherwise that`d be
> on that list
> too.) Personally, I favor revenge, wrath and
> battle/war on that list
> even though battle/war is pretty well covered by the
> existing gods.

I had always thought he would be the God of Conquest
(by way of both war and subversion), Deceit, Slaughter
and Betrayal.

Would fit well I think.

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[AndrewTall]

Ascension for ol' stony
Geeman has an interesting point - the Gorgon should need to 'do something' to earn ascension (particularly if you have the sort of players who might plan to ascend someday themselves).

I'd say however that he's done the 'war thing', similarly he has rules a large realm already (the Crown + Markazor + Murkilad + Kiergard is very chunky). As to ruling the empire he killed it - that is probably enough to qualify as epic. What could be necessary for him however is to bury the ideas of empire - when he has destroyed utterly his brother's dream then he has 'won'. This might be done by, for example, tricking the heirs of Avanil, Boeruine, Ghoere and Mhoried into a place that they can be slain leaving the four remaining contenders shattered (and giving him one last bloodline boost), or causing Mieres and Suriene to declare independence, destroying the imperial city, etc.

Alternatively you could rule that Michael had named one of his sisters / her child heir before facing the Gorgon - and the brute needs to identify which family the bloodline lies dormant in and claim it to complete his victory. I note that I tend to see True Bloodlines as 'different' to the standard inheritance system - rather than automatically inheriting the full strength you have to both be properly in tune with the old god's philosophy and have the necessary strength of character, etc.

As an alternative to the Gorgon slaughtering one or more of the major families of Anuire (although that would of course have interesting consequences) he might need to do the moral opposite - claim the power of the power of Azrai held by the other major awnsheghlien... If he mowed his way through the True Bloodline awnies it would have a destablising effect across all of Cerilia, and not necessarily for the good in the long term as new awnsheghlien would likely rise to take power and several of the 'big bads' are not true bloodlines anyway. Players might need to slay the Raven before the Gorgon gets to him...


Noble Council
Hm, the idea of a noble council is one that belongs in 'interesting times' - I can't see it being stable long term - no governance by committee ever is.

I can see an agreement after a long war or such-like that rulership would be shared with major decisions beyond the borders of a domain being agreed by the council - but that would really just shift the war from deords and bows to intrigue and deception.

Of course the short time could be a very interesting one in which to play a game, and give even minor realms the chance for greatness as a large army is not required to gain influence.


Chamberlain:
The Dosiere's have a very strong bloodline - that demands a certain respect, for many of the regents of Anuire marrying into his family would give them the necessary power boost to consider ruling a large realm. It is also worth noting that he rules a very powerful realm - albeit only of one province. The wealth of the City of Anuire alone gives him a certain amount of power (particularly if you say that his court costs are lower than usual due to the existing palaces, etc).

That said his power beyond the city could be none - he is ignored by other regents except at ceremonial events like the sword and crown

It could be moderate - he is a trusted neutral third party who can be relied upon to make legal judgments on treaty breaches between realms without fear or favour

It could be fairly significant with the imperial seal being necessary to validate a ruler in the eyes of the populace (albeit unlikely to be refused to the larger realms, but they would still have to pay him lip service).

I think that the Chamberlains power would wax and wane with both their personal charisma and diplomatic skill, and the current prevalence towards violence. If most regents see war as the way to victory the Chamberlain can do little more than sit around waiting to be claimed by the victor, if most regents shun war then the chamberlain, as the nexus around which many intrigues will circle, can have a strong influence.

[Kalien]

Noble Council
Hm, the idea of a noble council is one that belongs in 'interesting times' - I can't see it being stable long term - no governance by committee ever is.

I can see an agreement after a long war or such-like that rulership would be shared with major decisions beyond the borders of a domain being agreed by the council - but that would really just shift the war from deords and bows to intrigue and deception.

Of course the short time could be a very interesting one in which to play a game, and give even minor realms the chance for greatness as a large army is not required to gain influence.

Very true. The game could be set in that transition period between the council governing and the rise of a new Emperor.

I also agree that rule-by-council is unlikely to last for extended periods of time. There are interesting roleplaying possibilities with such a governance system that, I think, make it worth giving a go in a game.

Another idea I had (and posted a couple years ago) is that at some time after the death of Michael Roele, the Gorgon invaded Anuire in force. Only by setting aside historical differences and coming together under a single, unified command could the Anuirean lands eventually drive the Gorgon's forces from Anuire. Thus a new Emperor was crowned.

The "twist", as it were, was that the Emperor ruled for life only, with the 12 Duchies electing the Emperor's successor - much like the later Holy Roman Empire. In between the death of an Emperor and the election of a new Emperor, the 12 Dukes effectively hold the reins of power (though limited power). The game could be set just after the death of the previous Emperor, with the 12 Dukes - and other lands - vying to garner support to become the new emperor.

The thing then is to have sufficient DM plots to drag the game out for a while - most such "become the emperor" games tend to die within a turn or two of a new emperor being crowned - without the threat and plot twists being so threatening that they don't propel the swift election of a new Emperor to meet that threat.

[ConjurerDragon]

kgauck schrieb:
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
> http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=3729
> kgauck wrote:
> ------------ QUOTE ----------
> ... you are disempowering the Chamberlain and all he stands for as well as the royal bloodline of Roele.
> -----------------------------
>
> I think the Chamberlain is an artifact. No serious regent cares what he thinks. I cannot even imagine that he pretends to some importance. Certainly there are idealists who form some legitamist party in Anuire, but it is difficult for them to produce a serious candidate, much less elevate this person to the throne. Given the age, this is like looking for the Merovingian candidate for the throne of France.
>
Or he could be the real-world counterpart of the Pope (without the
religious background). The last remnant of the lost empire who safekeeps
the crown for the emperor to come, ruling the empires capital as his
steward.

Certainly it would be difficult to find a suitable candidate - but did
not the Pope crown Karl (Charlemagne) as emperor against the outrage of
the Byzantines who saw this as treason to crown a barbarian as if the
real emperor was gone - when the real roman empire had gone long ago?

[kgauck]

Certainly it would be difficult to find a suitable candidate - but did not the Pope crown Karl (Charlemagne) as emperor against the outrage of the Byzantines who saw this as treason to crown a barbarian as if the real emperor was gone - when the real roman empire had gone long ago?

Indeed, Charlemagne is a great example, as I mentioned elsewhere, for he has no connection to anything Roman. He's the outsider who claims the mantle of Rome. I rather think that the Byzantine position was that they were the Romans in question, not just successors of Rome, but the Romans themselves.

As for the Chamberlain being Pope, I think it makes more sense to view the temples of Haelyn (after all god of rulership and kings) as being in that position. Claiming the mantle of Empire will certainly require the aquiesence of the priests of Haelyn. The Chamberlain can either attach his little spark to the rising star, or get snuffed out at first convienence.

[vota dc]

If Gorgon becomes a God the "good" neighbour will be able to expand their domains,but after a decade the Gorgon's Chuch will be able to retake all the lost land and even more.

[AndrewTall]

If Gorgon becomes a God the "good" neighbour will be able to expand their domains,but after a decade the Gorgon's Chuch will be able to retake all the lost land and even more.

You are of course assuming that the Gorgon is awnsheghlien today and god tomorrow - if the transition takes a century or two during which he is inactive it could be very different.

You are also ignoring the church of Haelyn - if Haelyn tells them that the Gorgon has ascended and declares holy war, how long will the Crown survive without its master to direct it? The Crown wouldn't be conquered - its population would be annihilated...

The more I think about it the more I think that the Gorgon needs to do a lot of planning to avoid being wiped as soon as he ascends - unless you make the power of a god independent of the number and strength of their worshipers the first thing the other gods will do is launch an attack on his church.

Ideally he needs someway to conceal himself from the other gods - or to leapfrog them in power, he needs someone to protect his church by leading armies in its defense, etc.

He may decide to raise a new son/daughter - he can hardly ask the Drake back with an 'all is forgiven' after all but a new child raised in the 'right' way...

[Kalien]

The more I think about it the more I think that the Gorgon needs to do a lot of planning to avoid being wiped as soon as he ascends - unless you make the power of a god independent of the number and strength of their worshipers the first thing the other gods will do is launch an attack on his church.

I was thinking about this as well earlier today. The Cold Rider could avoid some attention by permanently dwelling in the Shadow World - not an option really for the Gorgon I would think.

The more I think of it - helped by people's feedback here - I am inclined to ditch the idea of the Gorgon ascending for the PBeM. A Gorgon who cannot leave Kal Saitharak (or won't because he is vulnerable the further from it he gets) might well turn his attention to spinning a vast intrigue network which gives me all the scope for mischief I need as a DM.

[Urulòki]

I hope this is not an unwelcome post... But as a curious guy, I was wondering whether you would advertise somewhere your nascent campaign, should you decide eventually to move along this promising project.

[AndrewTall]

I wouldn't necessarily ditch it - you could say that the Gorgon has withdrawn within Kal-Saitharak or taken on stone form - leaving people to wonder what is going on and why - who would invade if there was a chance he would wake up? You could have several years with his chosen lieutenants striving to prove that they should be chosen to sit as his mortal agent when he ascended, banned from slaying each other they need to find other means of proving their worth.

You get rid of the 'why doesn't he just walk out and kill everything issue' - as a ridiculously epic level character there is little in Cerilia that could actually stop him from killing every scion in the game if he so chose - but keeps the threats and intrigue needed in a PBeM going, as the PC's are fighting the lieutenants not the Gorgon himself - unless of course they invade the Crown and do enough damage to force him to set aside his godly intrigues and deal with them.

[Urulòki]

Only one question:

How will the word of Gorgon's disappearance or ascension reach the populations living outside the Raesene-dominated lands?

I guess that somehow this would be possible for Sidhelien or Mages of the CoS to feel that something has changed in Kal Satharak. Let say the Sidhelien shall not break the news to outsiders. But will the CoS tell anything at all for, Anuire ridden of the Raesene's threat may end swiftly engulfed in civil strife.

I thought for instance that somehow Anuire would never be quite sure of the Gorgon's leave, however hints may be diffused through Mhoried or Kiergard or anyone else witnessing infighting between the various factions once united under the heavy thumb of the Black Prince?

[AndrewTall]

Hmm, I can't see many people contesting the Gorgon's source holdings, and not many spies go in and out...

So probably by seeing the fall out from the internal struggle over the power vacuum, seeing goblins picking sides, etc.

Of course not everyone would believe it at first, a brave group of investigators would have to infiltrate Kal-Saitharak itself to be sure :)

[Alluveal]

I don't view the Chamberlain in any religious light. He's a diviner, but that in no way makes him a religious pope-like figure in my eyes. I see him more as a benevolent "Denethor" of the Lord of the Rings trilogy. Where the character of Denethor wanted power for himself, the Chamberlain truly is a steward of the Anuirean kingdom without a personal agenda (aside from finding the true ruler of the land.)

I am also not sure that marrying into the Chamberlain's family would help anyone procure the throne. I see the Chamberlain's line as separate from the Roele (or chosen ruling line,) and think it works best that way. I always saw the Dosiere line as means to "check and balance" the Emperor to a certain degree.

I am in agreement that ruling by council is a risky idea. It would make an interesting campaign in that the rulers of the council can be tempted and treated as our modern day senators (where lobbyists attempt to further their own goals.) To me, this opens up too many opportunities for corruption, thus taking the council away from its primary goal--to protect and serve the people, to lead the people, to rule wisely. Again, maybe it could work, but seeing how most D&D groups have some level of internal strife between characters as it is, who is to say that anything at all will get accomplished if they can't agree?

As for the Gorgon becoming a god, well . . . he's had hundreds of years to prepare. Perhaps once a bloodline reaches a certain point, the vessel (mortal body) is unable to hold the power within and he ascends. He is, after all, quite the stealer of bloodpoints. =)

[kgauck]

If there is anything useful about a connection to the Chamberlain its his fine bloodline, and a marriage there can only enhance your dynasty.

[Dcolby]

Indeed, Charlemagne is a great example, as I mentioned elsewhere, for he has no connection to anything Roman. He's the outsider who claims the mantle of Rome. I rather think that the Byzantine position was that they were the Romans in question, not just successors of Rome, but the Romans themselves.

The Idea of "Rome" and the "Empire" still resonated in Europe hundreds of years after its fall. The dark ages were such a horrible and lawless, bloody time that the Idea of the Empire came to symbolize a near mythic place an Idea that Charlemagne was able to seize upon.

The Anuirean empire despite its technolgy edge over the "Dark Ages" of Europe is in the throws of its own 500+ year "Dark Age".

Under such circumstances the Idea of the Empire and its fabled Golden Age and the Chamberlain that represents the last vestages of the good times, may have more power than can easily be quantified.

Add in the rumors of the Chamberlains Immortality (True or not) and the connection to the Empire of old is even more pronounced in the minds of Anuireans.

[kgauck]

A people would have to be remarkably romantic in their political notions to prefer a perpetual civil war (which is the description, more or less, of Anuire in Ruins of Empire) to someone that isn't a bona fide decendent of the Imperial dynasty, or doesn't match the apparently impossible requirements of the Chancellor, who hasn't found a suitable candidate in five centuries.

The Chancellor is criminal in my opinon, with all the blood of five centuries of intercene war on his hands.

[Dcolby]

The Chancellor is criminal in my opinon, with all the blood of five centuries of intercene war on his hands.

In a real world I would heartily agree with you, also likely is that in a real world a man or someone in his line of decendants who supposedly has the power to select the Emperor would have already done so to both preserve the nation and better his own position, human nature being what it is and all that.

As the central game concept is this shattered Empire and the struggle to become the next Emperor it seems that the Chancellor is another game device to prolong the games enviroment.

In a prior incarnation of the setting I once ran a Chancellor who was in fact an agent of the Gorgon. Sadly this game did not last long enough for the players to discover it, but it made for at least one very interesting Sword and Crown..

[geeman]

At 06:20 PM 5/9/2007, Dcolby wrote:

>>The Chancellor is criminal in my opinon, with all the blood of five
>>centuries of intercene war on his hands.
>
>In a real world I would heartily agree with you, also likely is that
>in a real world a man or someone in his line of decendants who
>supposedly has the power to select the Emperor would have already
>done so to both preserve the nation and better his own position,
>human nature being what it is and all that.
>
>As the central game concept is this shattered Empire and the
>struggle to become the next Emperor it seems that the Chancellor is
>another game device to prolong the games enviroment.

The Chamberlain is most likely a loose homage (like a lot of BR) to
Tolkien`s character Denathor, Steward of Gondor. As such his (or his
family`s) control of the IC is extended for thematic purposes. The
Stewards of Gondor remained in power for 25 generations, about 1,000
years, which might give us some idea of how the BR setting might go....

Speaking of Tolkien and what might happen if the Gorgon ascends,
consider this: Imagine that Sauron gets his ring back at the end of
RotK. Cerilia might look a lot like Middle Earth in such a scenario....

Gary

[Thelandrin]

I know that you're a Chamberlain hater, Kgauck, but is it possible that he has deliberately not chosen a candidate to keep Anuire strong? The candidates vie against each other, but generally do it quietly or politically, without recourse to open warfare. What would happen if he chose? Maybe there would be war, maybe not.

Then again, the Chamberlain is in a "damned if you, damned if you don't" situation, so he can't win from an impartial point of view.

[ShadowMoon]

I suppose it depends on Chamberlain in question; from long before Traederic on the fields of Deismaar, to Aedan seeing last Emperor slain by the Gorgon, to Caliedhe, the current and in a way only a symbolic Imperial Chamberlain. As I see it, there were rather active Chamberlains in past, that were very motivated in searching for a next Emperor. It would be a great honour and privilege to be marked in history books as the one who started the re-unification of the Empire. Probably there were even Chamberlains that chose sides in Anuirean political theatre, or even made some bad choices. I mean Dosiere are powerful and old house, but they are humans afterall.

So I just assumed that Caliedhe Dosiere (fourty-seventh Imperial Chamberlain) is reserved, and unambitious; more interested in past then present. He is honourable and responsable, so he is extra careful of what he says and/or do. Maybe even fearfull, not wanting to to be a part of some unfortunate event that would add to rather dark Anuirean history.

[Thelandrin]

It is mentioned that the Chamberlain has the Long Life (Greater) blood ability and thus has only aged 15 years since Deismaar. The rest of Anuire may think it's been different men all these centuries, but the rules would indicate differently :)

[ShadowMoon]

Well in Ruins of Empire (TSR AD&D Birthright) Caliedhe Dosiere doesn't have Long Life blood ability at all. It is a wild rumour that he and his ancestors are the same person, and that he (Traederic Dosiere) was granted immortality on the fields of Deismaar. But thats just it...

From Ruins of Empire (TSR AD&D Birthright):

Caliedhe Dosiere
Bloodline: Anduiras, great, 64
Blood Abilities: Resistance (major), Detect Lie (minor), Divine Aura (major), Enhanced Sense (major).

...

[ShadowMoon]

In Iron Throne novel Aedan Dosiere once manifested Regeneration (?) blood ability, but seeing Caliedhe's info and the lack of mentioned blood ability, one could conclude that it wasn't a hereditary blood ability, or even that Regeneration manifestation was an isolated event.

[Thelandrin]

Then again, the BR NPCs are infamous for only presenting rules for characters as they are seen in-game. This is notably why none of them are presented with alignments.

[DanMcSorley]

On 5/9/07, kgauck <brnetboard@birthright.net> wrote:
> A people would have to be remarkably romantic in their political notions to prefer a
> perpetual civil war (which is the description, more or less, of Anuire in Ruins of Empire) to
> someone that isn`t a bona fide decendent of the Imperial dynasty, or doesn`t match the
> apparently impossible requirements of the Chancellor, who hasn`t found a suitable
> candidate in five centuries.
>
> The Chancellor is criminal in my opinon, with all the blood of five centuries of intercene
> war on his hands.

I know I`ve seen this view from you before, Kenneth.

I think the problem is that the elapsed-time gap between the last
emperor and the campaign setting "present" was a gameplay conceit.
Yes, someone in the stewardship position of the Chancellor would have
helped someone claim the throne within a few decades (at most) of
civil war. This wasn`t done so, and lots of time was allowed to pass,
so that family lines would have time to mingle and potentially anyone
could win the throne, including your PC who started out as the baron
of a small holding.

In the realistic case you`re left with two options:
1 Set the game immediately after the vacancy, before anyone has won the throne.
2 Set the game later after the vacancy, after someone has won the throne.

2 is terrible for gameability- you can`t win a throne that is already
properly occupied, not if you`re the good guy. 1 is problematic,
because in the time immediately following the vacancy, there would
probably be a clearly "right" heir, based on whatever rules of
precedence the setting had, and the game becomes about supporting or
opposing the proper heir.

Five centuries was probably too long to set between the vacancy and
the "present". But probably at least a hundred years was needed to
allow the initial political setup the designers wanted, where there
were lots of small kingdoms and anyone could potentially win the
throne. The chamberlain is still around, but ineffective, so that he
can be present at the coronation of the PCs and pronounce it good. As
someone else mentioned, he`s something of a tolkienesque figure, too.

How would you have instead designed the initial setup, Kenneth? Do
away with the chamberlain entirely? Set the game immediately after
the vacancy?

--
Daniel McSorley

[ConjurerDragon]

Dcolby schrieb:
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
> http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=3729
> Dcolby wrote:
> ------------ QUOTE ----------
> The Chancellor is criminal in my opinon, with all the blood of five centuries of intercene war on his hands.
> -----------------------------
>
>
> In a real world I would heartily agree with you, also likely is that in a real world a man or someone in his line of decendants who supposedly has the power to select the Emperor would have already done so to both preserve the nation and better his own position, human nature being what it is and all that.
>
> As the central game concept is this shattered Empire and the struggle to become the next Emperor it seems that the Chancellor is another game device to prolong the games enviroment.
>
> In a prior incarnation of the setting I once ran a Chancellor who was in fact an agent of the Gorgon. Sadly this game did not last long enough for the players to discover it, but it made for at least one very interesting Sword and Crown..
In the real world existed similar situations. I think for example of the
Interregnum after the excommunication and later death of the last
Staufer Emperor and the time until a Habsburg became emperor of the Holy
Roman Empire of German Nation..
And this interregnum was in the real world where no additional
requirement of a bloodline existed to become the emperor - such a
requirement, several contenders each equally powerful and a Chamberlain
who sees all contenders as unworthy of the throne because he knows they
would cause more harm than no emperor - that all can prolong an interregnum.

But criminal? In the HRE were skirmishes and border conflicts between
members of the empire common - even in times were an emperor was ruling.

[Dcolby]

But criminal? In the HRE were skirmishes and border conflicts between members of the empire common - even in times were an emperor was ruling.

I think the Central point here is whether or not you feel or think that the Chamberlain has the power to make/enforce policy and succession. If in say Kguacks' version of Cerilia or the version I once ran he does have that sort of sway then his inaction may be unpardonable.

Most versions including my current, seem to present the chamberlain as a hold over from the old Empire trying his best to keep the "Idea" of the Empire, its law, order, & symbology alive to be reborn from the ashes.

All in all a matter of how you want to tell the story I should think..:)

[Thelandrin]

From a simple self-preservation point of view, if the Chamberlain actually tipped his hand and showed his power, he'd become Anuire's assassination central overnight. Also, if he decided in favour of one candidate, the other three would more than likely launch an assault on the Imperial City itself to force a different decision.

[Dcolby]

From a simple self-preservation point of view, if the Chamberlain actually tipped his hand and showed his power, he'd become Anuire's assassination central overnight. Also, if he decided in favour of one candidate, the other three would more than likely launch an assault on the Imperial City itself to force a different decision.

Yeah that nasty I don't want to eat poison thing sure can interfere with doing whats right ;)

[rodsantos]

In my games the chamberlain dont have any real power outside the walls of the imperial city, and even in theory he can appoint a new emperor, in fact if he ever does so, there will be a large scale war, because, without the support of almost all the regents, there will never be a new emperor.

The main difference from BR and Roman empire, in this case in particular, i believe is the loyalty of the army. In the days of Michael Roele, i believe that the Imperial armies, were in fact, almost all of them, armies of the individual regents, drafted in ocasional conflicts.

If there were imperial legions, when MR was slayn, that who could controll the legions, would control the empire. Much like in Rome, when an emperor died without a clear successor (This happened many times)

So, the chamberlain, dont control any armies, and therefore dont have any real power. He is well respected yes, but not really powerfull

[rodsantos]

I found the idea of Gorgon becoming a God, very interesting, and i am already inserting it in my ongoing BR campaign.

The central plot of my game envolves an ancient plot where in the past the elves had a God, and it was divided in two parts, one became Azrai, the other one is imprisoned by the Serpent . When mortal, he was assigned to guard the weakened body of the god, but when he became an Awnsheg, he manage to find a way to drain the divine power of the good, and transfer it to his priests.

I will insert the Gorgons plan, in a context regarding the reunification of the Elven God, and the absortion of this god, as a way to ascend. At least, this will be his plan.

Thank you all for the plot ideas !

[AndrewTall]

Hmm, I think we could have had the bloodlines mingling a lot sooner than 500 years - throughout the entire empire in fact :-)

I would note that we have almost NO history defined between the fall and 'now'. It is quite possible to say that a chamberlain did choose a new emperor (likely the clear leader amongst the dukedoms - like a Russian election) and that Emperor ruled for a brief period (say until the gorgon destroyed him for his presumption)

One problem for a new emperor of course is that after restoring order, they need to finish old business - quite a few fools will press for the Gorgon's evil to be driven out / the empire reclaimed, etc. That sort of thing does not encourage a long reign.


If anyone can join in the 'how I would have done it' challenge from Mr McSorley:

I would have had the empire last 2-300 years - long enough to have a substantial impact, not so long that the impact should be dominant. The fall should have been at most a century or so ago - possibly half that so that some still remember 'the glory days'.

Of course the Brecht would then have had to have had the Brecht leauge almost as soon as they regained independence - say a generation after at most - but that isn't impossible...

The Chamberlain is then still keeper of the empire - grandfather to grandchild as it were, and has a reasonable excuse for not naming an emperor. I agree with Ken that to go 500 years without picking someone makes you either negligent, inert, or indecisive to a terminal degree.

I'd also have made them bronze moving into iron age but that's another story...

[Alluveal]

Man some of you really play some wussy Chamberlains. =) To say he has no power outside of Anuire City is . . . well . . . a bit naive, imho. =) Perhaps I run him as a bit more sophisticated and worldly in his political dealings? He's there for a good GM to mold and fashion, and he's one of my favorite NPC's.

What if he chose a contender to the throne above the likes of Boeruine and Avanil? Well, he better choose wisely, and he better be prepared for said decision. In short, he's no dummy. He won't commit political suicide in such a fashion. He'll play his hand in a much more cunning manner. =)

[kgauck]

How would you have instead designed the initial setup, Kenneth? Do away with the chamberlain entirely? Set the game immediately after the vacancy?

A fair question and one that deserves a good answer. I hope my reply serves that purpose.

I would select case 1, Set the game immediately after the vacancy, before anyone has won the throne, and as you suggest this might last a few decades, so a generation of civil war drags on as play begins and the world longs for an end. The stage is set for the PC's, if only they can prove themselves (cue dramatic swells with action and reaction shots of the party).

My solution to the dilema posed would be very much like the end of the War of the Roses (which will be a sort of template for the interregnum). The clear and obvious claimants have all killed one another off. A few managed to claim the throne for a little while, but either died tragically (Henry V) before the empire had entirely embraced him, or were done in by foul means. Indeed there might be a Richard III type figure who eliminates some claimants by cloak and dagger to make his own way towards the throne. I might have him marry a claimant and put himself in an excellent position to sieze the Iron Throne but he falls ill after his wedding feats (a gluttonous affair with gilded food, see Lionel Plantagenet, death of) and never gets to accupy the throne he has spilt so much blood to attain. Is there a Warwick as kingmaker? Well, maybe, but there is no need to follow the analogy too closely.

In summery, the best candidates would be named figures, cut down before the game starts leaving the field with no clear claimant, and the PC's Henry-Tudor-like come from no where (or somewhere) to win the crown themselves and ascend the Iron Throne.

For extra color, you can add Arthurian elements (many of which are there in quiet) of a country in civil war, or beset by petty kings, waiting for Arthur to reveal himself and win his kingdom. This is more of a destiny thing, and might involve more of a storytelling approach to gaming than some would prefer, but even if you don't go that route there is plenty of Arthurian window dressing to employ, because its themes and situations are the same.

That's the gist of how I would do it.

[kgauck]

Is it possible that he has deliberately not chosen a candidate to keep Anuire strong? The candidates vie against each other, but generally do it quietly or politically, without recourse to open warfare. What would happen if he chose? Maybe there would be war, maybe not.


The books say war is frequent if not constant. The game opens with war imminant everywhere and I think by spring (after an opening winter move) wars would spring about all over. Most would go on between two season and six, pause and re-open with a slightly altered cast of characters.

[Dcolby]

The books say war is frequent if not constant. The game opens with war imminant everywhere and I think by spring (after an opening winter move) wars would spring about all over. Most would go on between two season and six, pause and re-open with a slightly altered cast of characters.

Avin, Beoruine, Ghoere all stand ready for a spark/excuse to send the whole former empire into War. The setting is predicated on the war and the part your players will have in it.

And since this post is about the Gorgon becoming a god he is certainly overdue for a temper tantrum at the opening of the setting. So even if your Dukedoms are not as petty and competitive as some other peoples, a very, very nasty thing lurks waiting to send the whole world into the flames.