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Magian
11-19-2001, 02:01 AM
What is the amount you would allow for Avan to collect from each of his vassals?

Mieres, Brosengae, Taeghas, WIT, PAI, and perhaps other realms for protection. (similar to the Huns vs Romans)

Temujin
11-20-2001, 06:41 AM
I would have no qualm about collecting 1/4th of my landed vassal's RP and GB income each turn. Guilds tend to make insanely huge ammount of gold but their guilders tend to have crappy bloodlines. So I'd probably tax the Prince's Pride the equivalent of 1/3rd its seasonly income, but asking no regency.

Temujin
11-20-2001, 06:44 AM
Taxing churches is quite a taboo I'd figure with most lords(at least as a priest I wouldn't take it kindly to anyone who would dare to tax me), especially taxing a powerful church like the WIT. Of course, I'd expect them to publicly support their lord(aka free agitate and investiture actions) and to use their influence to make foreign rulers in which they extend their temple network in to be more amicable to Avanil.

Magian
11-21-2001, 02:41 AM
Hi Ghengis,

Been awhile since last we met, I think you were in Eric's last game? Maybe it was FL's last when you were Ghoere? Seems like another lifetime for both games.

The reason I included WIT is because I am using him as part of Avan's family's religious holdings like the book suggests and from this GB tribute would seem viable.

I agree with the skimming the tithe of the church as being taboo and very risky.

Lawgiver
12-08-2001, 03:44 AM
I would say 10% of the RPs, GBs along with military support. Avan is a bit greedy, but I don't think he would be oppressive enough to suck 25%. After all they are still his realms. he would like to see them grow and expand. He may inflict an occassion added collection once in a while if the vassals built up enough wealth to keep them in submission.

As far as taxing the church I doubt he would. I tend to agree with Temujin in that he would rather use them for free agitate and investiture actions. He would also use them in a political manipulation and possible strong arming of his opponents. IF the WIT is under his control and the WIT can expand into foriegn realms where his troops would be opposed.

Dosiere
12-21-2001, 04:05 AM
I don't fully agree, Lawgiver. Avan seems to be the type that would certainly tax 25% from his vassals. He could then turn around and loan or grant them funds to build their realms, using their own money, but now there are strings attached. It is certain that Avan would not be above using such tactics as these.

Yak
12-23-2001, 02:17 AM
I disagree with the idea that the church is untouched. I definitely don't think it is taboo to tax and collect rps from temples. They are regents like anyone else. Avan protects the WIT, as do other regents protect their local temples. I think a temple being outraged that a regent would ask for RP and GB in vassalage is a modern type of concept not belonging in this type of game. Many would love to become state religions and in a land of constant civil war they are very vulnerable to the landed regents. Very few Temples could stand up to an all out war by their landed regent, just as very few regents could stand up their temples agitating them and compete for dominance of Anuire. Itís a tightrope walk that is padded a bit in the landed regent's favor, but I definitely don't think asking for regency and taxation is way out of bounds. There is no one religion in Cerilia just like there is no one guild. Anyone with the help of the regent could move swiftly and efficiently in and take over the temples in the land. That is why the most powerful states are the ones that have their temples and guilds rapped up in vassalage. Avan has this and he must demand at least , and I am talking bare minimum, 10% of the RP intake of the temples in his land under his thumb. When you control the breadbasket of Cerilia you can do that too.

Magian
12-27-2001, 06:36 PM
I also disagree with Lawgiver on the church taxation/tribute because I am using WIT as his families religious holdings thus he is truly the lord of that temple. However I also agree with Lawgiver and Temujin that taxing a temple is a taboo thus CJS stays in his realm duty free.

Rhobher Nichalier imo is a facist who not only worships Haelyn but also Avan as his liege. Avan allows CJS to stay in his realm as a balancer to WIT as they both seek his favor.

The actions of agitiate, invest, and realms spells and much more can still be demanded of Avan upon WIT at his will since I in my campaign am binding them together, so they are not separate entities. Avan can also demand/request CJS to support him with actions also giving him more to his aid.

Lawgiver
12-28-2001, 04:17 AM
Before I get bushwacked to much further.... Let me state that (as usual) my campaign is run a little different. The churches are much more unified across Anuire. I changed the various pagan faiths to be Christian based. The church is more like the mighty Roman Catholic church of old. Unlike the standard rules where a regent may have more power than the local churches in his realm, he is dwarfed by the united anuirian church. United the churches have more military might, gold, and political influence than any landed regent. Thus their influence holds a little more wieght than the divided faiths of Anuire as presened in the RoE. Thus a regent may attempt to dominate a local church and may succeed in the short-term. But in the long run the church will weild its influence and make the regent regret their greed.
Don't get me wrong though, many of the churches do support the regents with regency and Gbs, though it is often on their own volition not the regent's influence. Though they rarely give anything without expecting something in return.

If I played with the RoE version of temples Avan would probably tax the churches 10-20% (and on the other landed vassals).

morgramen
12-28-2001, 06:14 AM
I would side with Lawgiver on this one. Only thoe temples who do not fall into the regents status quo should be taxed outright.

As Avan, I wouldn't tax the WIT. I'd do as others say, urging him with a friendly and humble elbow that big things can come to those who aid him gain the throne... the Book of Days might be relocated by Imperial Edict and the unified temple of the Empire would need a leader...

all in return for agitations, troop support, spells, and other freebies which the church could offer him.

Avan is too sly to demand cash from his primary temple, and is (at heart I think), a staunch follower of Haelyn's laws (though he tends to take a more "King James" approach to it, hence the WIT).

Magian
12-28-2001, 07:57 AM
Since this post is going again, what would you say Avan demands in tribute from Mieres?

I personally am having Avanese troops the only troops allowed in Mieres, levies allowed under war conditions, and Avan's navy the only ships doing commerce. This is at the start of course. Arron Vaumel will begin his own style of defiance later on with his own style of "navy".

My idea is this colony is being robbed practically blind by Avan however he will defend it with his armies and navy. He does not trust Vaumel to let him have free reign and he is only a governor who is appointed by the prince.

Arch-Sorcerer Gargamel
12-28-2001, 02:48 PM
Mhistecai must be the prince's worst nightmare, then. Her colony is only on loan to him, and he's not giving it back. She'll probably get it soon, though.

Lawgiver
12-29-2001, 05:15 AM
Orginally posted by Magian

Since this post is going again, what would you say Avan demands in tribute from Mieres?

I personally am having Avanese troops the only troops allowed in Mieres, levies allowed under war conditions, and Avan's navy the only ships doing commerce. This is at the start of course. Arron Vaumel will begin his own style of defiance later on with his own style of "navy".

My idea is this colony is being robbed practically blind by Avan however he will defend it with his armies and navy. He does not trust Vaumel to let him have free reign and he is only a governor who is appointed by the prince.

I would support that theory... though Avan would most likely need to keep a very close eye on Vaumel to get the fair share of his 25%. Regular inspections every six months would probably be insufficient. A full time ambassador would be better (though the ambassador would mostly likely end up as corrupt as Vaumel before long) The realm is just to far away to be threatened by words and laws. It would mostly likely involve full time garrisons of Avan's troops... much like the Brits in early America.