Pronounciation

[Thelandrin]

When you start transcribing large chunks of text for the wiki, you tend to start thinking about what you're typing.

Boeruine is pronounced boh-RUIN apparently, because the double-vowel-single-consonant-silent-E forces the double vowels to pronounced as one of the Anuirean diphthongs.

Now, Anuire is in exactly the same boat. Why isn't it pronounced ah-NOO-weer (and ah-NOO-weer-ee-an), rather than the an-weer (and an-weer-ee-an) that the BRCS says?

[Sorontar]

There are various possible reasons for that:
1) regional accent: after all you can't expect everyone in Liverpool to speak English exactly the same as the Cornwellians (or whatever they call themselves). I imagine Boeruine would want to have distinct traits like this and probably pronounce Anuire as ah-NOO-weer. How do you say Paris (Pa-ris or Pa-ree?) or Newcastle (Nu-Car-sel or Nu-ca-sel?)? How the residents pronounce it?
I suspect that the BR documentation gives the pronounciation as defined by the locals.

2) phonological rules: This is what really defines accents. It specifies what phonemes (or phonetic sounds) should be used when, given what other sounds surround them. It is not based on how things are written (cf. the incorrect theory that 'ghoti' can be pronounced fish) so things like a silent "e" are not included for most rules. Taking Anuire and Boeruine in isolation (because I don't have any other documentation with me) I could define the phonological rules for "ui" as:
"ui" is pronounced as the dipthong "ui" when followed by a word final "n" e.g. boh-RUIN
"ui" is pronounced "wee" when followed by a word final "r" e.g. an-weer
Of course there are other ways I could define those rules, but that is the sort of things I would be looking for.

If you are still having trouble understanding this, think about the plural "s" in English. How many times do you actually pronounce it as "s"?
cf. bats = "s", runs = "z" ...., bridges = "iz" or "z"

Sorontar, the linguist

[Thelandrin]

That's also getting terribly complicated! I'm assuming then, like you said, that the difference between Ah-noo-weer and An-weer is simply regional, even if the first is presumably more correct.

BTW, it's Cornish :) (Also, while I say New-car-stle and my mother [being northern] says New-cas-stle, we both say car-stle. There's accents and upbringing for you!)

[Sorontar]

What I am saying is that I suspect that it is either a regional difference, or that they should never sound alike anyway because the accent may define "ui" as sounding different if it is preceded or followed by different sounds e.g. "n" (as in Boruine) or "r" as in (Anuire). In fact, the rule may be that "ui" as a dipthong can never be followed by "r", so in Anuire it is not a dipthong, but is two separate vowels in two separate syllables. But as I said before, I don't have the BR documentation on hand to look at to think further on this.

However, this is a familiar problem to me. I looked at giving a place in Anuire a Rjuven/Swedish name. I gave it a correct Rjuven/Swedish pronounciation then had to think of how it would be (mis)pronounced by the locals. After all, for those who can read, it uses the same alphabet but is read slightly differently (accents etc). For those who don't read, I just change the phonemes to the closest "sensible" equivalent in the Anuirean phonology (ala Anglicising foreign words).

Sorontar.

[Jaleela]

I've always had issues with some of the pronounciations for some of the countries and names. I can't put my finger on it, but it just doesn't seem consistent in the application of sounds, ignoring regional dialects for a moment.

Home and Come?
Nope. Home and Comb ;)

I think the one that bugs me the most is Osoerde. Oh-Sor DAY? Shouldn't it be OH-sord? The 'e' lacks an accent that would give it the "ay" sound. Especially when you look at Ghoere. It's not GOR-ay. It's GORE. I always felt that the e should add final definition to the last next to the last letter. I see the comment that it's a syllabic e. But I would tend to put an eh sound on it not an ay.

It is interesting that I put the stress on different syllables, even in Alamie (I say it al-a-MAY) and Elinie (el-in-AY).

[Thelandrin]

Well, I think Ghoere is more like GOOR, than GOR, but then that's just my interpretation of the oe diphthong.

Osoerde is definitely a difficult one, but it can probably be best represented in text with the final e accented (Osoerdé).

[vota dc]

Ehmmm I always pronunced Ghoere GHERE like Goethe pronunciation.

[kgauck]

We do have a pronounciation guide in Rich Baker's own voice.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/BR_pr_guide.ZIP

[Thelandrin]

Now, that is interesting...

However, it seems that some of Rich Baker's pronounciations don't match the suggested ones mentioned in the source text! *g*

[RaspK_FOG]

I feel like some people forget that these pronounciation guides can mean almost NOTHING to those not taught how to use them (and, believe me, there are more than enough people who have problems with more basic problems when it comes to English than knowing how to read theoretical pronounciation guides)...

Would it be possible that we somehow make this more readable? Knowing a fair couple of languages and knowing how some sounds don't even EXIST in them tells me that a more thorough "mechanic" should be used.

In an attempt to put down Japanese pronounciation, a whole new set of writings emmerged, just to give the exact sound of that language. The funny part is that, due to the simplicity of the logic behind this system (we provide obvious matchings of sound and letters and provide an equally easy to read legend), it can be used for almost any language that humanly possible to speak!

In that typing, "G" is always the same as in "get," "Y" sounds like the German (and Ancient Greek and Latin as well) "Jott" for the letter "J," "CH" denotes a harsher, tighter mouth-cavity variety of "TS," and "TSH" would be less harsh than "CH" but have a deeper and more pronounced "S" sound ("SH" working just like "SCH" in German); an "S" is always read like "caress," and "Z" is read as in "Zinc." Clearly, some pronounciations can only be explained with additional symbology (which explains to the reader that these two vowels are actually pronounced as one, hence a dipthong), but it's much more concise than most traditional pronounciation guides.

[Thelandrin]

Then of course, you end up with a huge alphabet with many different letters. Both the Welsh and Anuirean alphabets are bigger than the English one, for instance.

[geeman]

At 01:28 AM 5/3/2007, RaspK_FOG wrote:

>I feel like some people forget that these pronounciation guides can
>mean almost NOTHING to those not taught how to use them (and,
>believe me, there are more than enough people who have problems with
>more basic problems when it comes to English than knowing how to
>read theoretical pronounciation guides)...
>
>Would it be possible that we somehow make this more readable?
>Knowing a fair couple of languages and knowing how some sounds don`t
>even EXIST in them tells me that a more thorough "mechanic" should be used.
>
>In an attempt to put down Japanese pronounciation, a whole new set
>of writings emmerged, just to give the exact sound of that language.

Sorry to be peevish, but if I might chime in with one particular
issue here. There are two words, pronounce and pronunciation, that
are phonetically different, though often used in a very similar
manner. "Pronounce" is a verb and "pronunciation" is a noun--the
nominalized form of the verb. Whenever I teach English to folks for
whom it is a second language, I take care to point out the difference
because, frankly, it drives me crazy when people say
"pronounciation." "Pronounce" is pronounced with the "ou" sound
(like how, now, cow) while "pronunciation" is the simple "u" sound
(as in cut or none.)

Of course, in email/text this is just a minor spelling error rather
than pronunciation problem, but since the problem is pronunciation
it`s important not to mispronounce those words having to do with
pronunciation itself....

>The funny part is that, due to the simplicity of the logic behind
>this system (we provide obvious matchings of sound and letters and
>provide an equally easy to read legend), it can be used for almost
>any language that humanly possible to speak!
>
>In that typing, "G" is always the same as in "get," "Y" sounds like
>the German (and Ancient Greek and Latin as well) "Jott" for the
>letter "J," "CH" denotes a harsher, tighter mouth-cavity variety of
>"TS," and "TSH" would be less harsh than "CH" but have a deeper and
>more pronounced "S" sound ("SH" working just like "SCH" in German);
>an "S" is always read like "caress," and "Z" is read as in "Zinc."
>Clearly, some pronounciations can only be explained with additional
>symbology (which explains to the reader that these two vowels are
>actually pronounced as one, hence a dipthong), but it`s much more
>concise than most traditional pronounciation guides.

It`s often more useful to have a phonetic spelling rather than use
the pronunciation marks. "ee" works as well to indicate a long "e"
sound as the phonetic alphabet character and capitalizing a syllable
is just as effective as accenting it, etc. That`d be the way to go
IMO, or at least something no more complex than the simplified
pronunciation guides standard to English dictionaries.

Gary

[RaspK_FOG]

I can't help but face the dire problems of not using the English language as much as I would have otherwise needed, and being dyslexic does not help much either; I hope you can understand I am doing my best, being very fond of linguistics. :) Too bad there is no proper course on the subjext here in Greece...

Anyway, the whole thing about symbols was actually about such letters as ä, ö, ð and þ rather than ß (the first is a strong "eh" sound with an "ay" undertone, the second is a deep "eh" sound, the third is "th" in "the," the fourth in "thought," but the last is "ss"). So some symbols may be needed (in our case, the first two are not needed per se, but the other could be useful, unless you resort to other symbology, like italics or caps to denote whether you are use the hard ð or the soft þ "th" sounds). The thing is, we don't need to use such characters.

What Gary said is part of what I have in mind. I'll try and write down all sounds I can remember (if a letter is not on this list, it isn't to be used on its own).


a - ah
b - begin
ch - chart
d - delay
e - enter
f - forget
g - gorge
h - whole
i - tip
j - jackal
k - kite
kh - chemistry
l - lake
ll - parallel
m - memory
n - numb
o - ommit
ou - torn
p - perish
r - rotate
s - sort
sh - short
ss - system
t - try
tch - kitchen
ts - plots
u - noodles
v - volley
w - what
x - exit
y - yonder
z - zone

[geeman]

At 11:42 AM 5/5/2007, RaspK_FOG wrote:

>I`ll try and write down all sounds I can remember (if a letter is
>not on this list, it isn`t to be used on its own).

All those should work pretty well. It`d be nerdy-cool if the example
words were BR related in some way.... R=regent, W=war, etc.

Gary

[sir_ladahad]

We do have a pronounciation guide in Rich Baker's own voice.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/BR_pr_guide.ZIP

The only working link I was able to find:

https://web.archive.org/web/20090603211501/http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/BR_pr_guide.ZIP