Any of the 'new classes' in use?

[Ragathol]

Wizards is pumping out new 3.5 material like some asian sweathouse, so I was wondering if any of you birthright DM's out there have integrated any of the newer core classes into your games? I have some ideas for a society of Azrai worshipping Warlocks. The Duskblade is also a nice fit for an elite member of Tuarhevil's military.

Any thoughts? :D

[prince_dios]

Well, I looked into the PHB II's Knight class, and found it to be pretty overblown and goofy.

Which is a shame, since the Fighter class doesn't provide enough skill points for a knightly character. I thought of remedying the problem by forcing blooded fighters to begin as Nobles to represent their time as a page/squire, but I'm not sure how that would go over with my group.

As a rule of thumb, I try to keep all Wizards books besides the PHB off my table. And even the PHB bothers me with its ugliness from time to time... :P

[Thelandrin]

Well, personally, I liked the Knight class, as well as the Duskblade (which would do well for some of the Sidhelien fighter-mages) and the Beguiler.

I also like AEG's Courtier class from Rokugan, which would fit well into Cerilia's political theme, but I'm a little concerned that it might be too powerful.

[ShadowMoon]

Well for my Birthright 3.5E campaign I use feats to represent Knights. Like Squire feat, Knight Errant feat, etc...
And there are Knight prestige classess that represents various knightly orders.

In addition; I do not use Noble class, because IMHO all classess could be nobles without multiclassing, though I use some prestige classess that focus on administration, rulling, etc.
But basically I use Noble feats.

Anyway, I use more optional rules than core, like wound points, stamina, sanity, armor absorbation, LA levels, alternative alignment system, etc...

Lately I started developing new class system, that will not have classess like Fighter, Wizard, etc, but they would chose their path like focus on Combat, Devotion, Lore, and Stealth. Thus meeting prerequisites for feats and abilities. Every level would grant CP (Character Points) so characters will buy skills, saves, vitality, etc within limitation. So You can have like a warrior type character with evasion that could channel divine magic. So every class ability is now available for taking by any character if he/she meets prerequisites and spends enough CPs.

I hope this is not to much confusing, but there are to many changes to mention, and to elaborate their purpose, but bottom line is this; All changes I made for my Birthright campaign serves perfectly for Birthright fantasy (not WOTC childish core D&D) feel. At least for me and my crew.

Bests,

Aleksandar Maksimilian Licul

[Thelandrin]

I presume you're using something similar to the Generic Classes option in Unearthed Arcana? Interesting choice. Have you considered also using some sort of "weapon groups" idea as well, or not?

[ShadowMoon]

I presume you're using something similar to the Generic Classes option in Unearthed Arcana? Interesting choice. Have you considered also using some sort of "weapon groups" idea as well, or not?

Yes but I separated them like this:

Simple Weapon Proficiency: Light Melee Weapons
= Martial Weapon Proficiency: Light Melee Weapons
= Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Light Melee Weapons

Simple Weapon Proficiency: One–Handed Melee Weapons
= Martial Weapon Proficiency: One–Handed Melee Weapons
= Exotic Weapon Proficiency: One–Handed Melee Weapons

Simple Weapon Proficiency: Two–Handed Melee Weapons
= Martial Weapon Proficiency: Two–Handed Melee Weapons
= Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Two–Handed Melee Weapons

Simple Weapon Proficiency: Ranged Weapons
= Martial Weapon Proficiency: Ranged Weapons
= Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Ranged Weapons

Light Armor Proficiency
= Medium Armor Proficiency
= Heavy Armor Proficiency

Light Shield Proficiency
= Heavy Shield Proficiency
= Tower Shield Proficiency

So one feat is basically prerequisite to other.

EDIT: I thought of making groups like: Hilted Weapons; Hafted Weapons; Pole Weapons, etc, but in the end I abandoned it...

[hirumatogeru]

I've found the True20 system from Green Ronin can handle birthright quite well. They use 3 core classes (warrior, expert, and adept) to determine your reputation score, saving throws, and combat modifier (and skill points I think). Then you pick a role which is essentially a collection of feats that determines if you are a thief, knight, soldier, wizard, healer, etc. Every class ability has been turned into a feat, and the only dice you ever use is a d20.

Its quite a cool system, in that its simple, flexible, and doesn't bog down the game with too many rules. More emphasis on roleplaying is always what I look for in a system.

[Thelandrin]

I take it that True20 is a reworked and greatly expanded version of Unearthed Arcana's Generic Classes? Sounds cool anyhow.

[Ragathol]

Well, I looked into the PHB II's Knight class, and found it to be pretty overblown and goofy.

Which is a shame, since the Fighter class doesn't provide enough skill points for a knightly character. I thought of remedying the problem by forcing blooded fighters to begin as Nobles to represent their time as a page/squire, but I'm not sure how that would go over with my group.

As a rule of thumb, I try to keep all Wizards books besides the PHB off my table. And even the PHB bothers me with its ugliness from time to time... :P

seriously? hehe, that makes us polar opposites :p i dont like anything NON-wizards in my games. ah well, different strokes for different folks. i even seen a guy on here who still has people that play 2nd ed



i guess, to refine my question a little bit, i'll do an example. the Warlock.. coincidentally, my favorite new class

Warlocks are sort of like arcane casters with a demonic tilt, with a smaller repotoire of abilities but a strong set, to be sure. It's easy enough to make a Warlock geared for diplomacy and interaction, which would lead me to my game hook: a small coven of Aniurean Azrai-blooded Warlocks among the nobility that work to keep the political stalemate fresh through their influence with the leaders of their provinces. All the better to keep an emperor off the throne, and thusly incapable of uniting Cerilia for a second run at the Gorgon's Crown. :p

[Thelandrin]

My group were trying out some of the new classes in Birthright. We concluded that the warmage just didn't fit at all and that you could only justify Warlocks as blooded scions of Azrai or Vorynn only.

(It didn't help that the warmage was also an Elf, in a stunning display of "who cares about the background"...)

[irdeggman]

I haven't seen a warlock tried yet.

But a tie to the shadow world could work there. Something like a halfling warlock. Not really demonic descent but rather other worldly (as in the Shadow World).

Scout (complete Adventurerer) would be a very good class - especially for the Rjurik and elves.

[Thelandrin]

During a dual attempt to extend my roleplaying skills and play a True bloodline, I designed and played Lachlan, son of Rhuobhe Manslayer. I used the standard Ranger class (with Favoured Enemy: Humans of course), but instead of the combat style, I opted for Fast Movement at 2nd-level, which I thought fit the theme better.
I was also planning to use the Darkwood Stalker PrC from Complete Warrior, which is usually themed towards Orcs, but the fluff is perfect for a Cerilian Elf hunting humans.

[RaspK_FOG]

Unfortunately, while True20 lies near the correct direction (and so does the new d20 Stars Wars Roleplaying Game: Saga Edition), it's not quite there.

[MatanThunder]

:D

My highest level PC in Birthright is Crillars Blueleaf. He is a 2nd Edition Fighter Warlock Elf. My DM at the time thought it was a hoot to allow the class in, and since fighter mages were allowed for elves the extension to Fighter Warlocks wasn't that far of a step.

The old warlock/witch class limits male witchs to the lower levels of witch/warlock class magic. It made for an interesting PC though. he ended up 21/16 after years of gaming.

I know this isn't one of the new classes, but I can see that such classes should be allowed into the realms of regents in the game.

Later

:cool:

[ShadowMoon]

Well I used Warlocks to depict corrupted demon worshipping spellcasters of Aduria, and it did a good job...

But as I said; I am trying to remove that WOTC model for my Birthright campaign...

[Ragathol]

I haven't seen a warlock tried yet.
Scout (complete Adventurerer) would be a very good class - especially for the Rjurik and elves.

dude...

I so shouldve made that! :p and my brand new character is Rjuvrik too. Ah well, I like him too much to change him now, heh heh.

[Ariadne]

I haven't seen a warlock tried yet.
Very powerful in low-levels, no match for a wizard/ sorcerer in high levels...

[irdeggman]

Very powerful in low-levels, no match for a wizard/ sorcerer in high levels...


I didn't mean I haven't seen (or played) a warlock - only that I haven't seen one in a BR setting.

IMO warlocks are not inbalanced compared to sorcerers/wizards at any level.

But this isn't about the class as a whole only about using it in a BR setting.

[Ariadne]

I didn't mean I haven't seen (or played) a warlock - only that I haven't seen one in a BR setting.
Maybe the elves around the Manslayer can be warlocks. May match...



IMO warlocks are not inbalanced compared to sorcerers/wizards at any level.
Depends strongly, if you use PrCs or not. The warlock has some PrCs presented in CM, the sorcerer/ Wizard has PrCs presented nearly everywhere and there starts the problem...

Examples:

Level 1: Warlock (Eldrich blast 1d6/round, every round till he can't stand any more ;) ), Wizard (Magic Missile 1d4+1 or say Lesser Orb of Acid 1d8, two or maybe 3 times and then he uses a crossbow), Sorcerer (either Magic Missile OR Orb of Acid 4 times to 5 times a day and then he uses a crossbow)...

Level 12: Warlock (Eldrich Blast 6d6 every round, great invocations and some gimmics; maybe Quicken Spell-like Ability [3xday] Eldrich blast 6d6), Wizard (Disintegrate 24d6, if failed save AND Quickened Orb of Acid 5d8), Sorcerer with Rapid Metamagic same as Wizard, but more often and I didn't consider some nice gimmicks like Rods of Metamagic Maximize or Quicken and PrC's like Incantatrix...

Well, convince me, but I think, the warlock is a bit weaker (and alot weaker if the Wizard/ Sorcerer hat the right PrC(s)) at high levels...

[irdeggman]

Depends strongly, if you use PrCs or not. The warlock has some PrCs presented in CM, the sorcerer/ Wizard has PrCs presented nearly everywhere and there starts the problem...

Well, convince me, but I think, the warlock is a bit weaker (and alot weaker if the Wizard/ Sorcerer hat the right PrC(s)) at high levels...

Never use prestige classes as measure of how balanced a base class is.

The prestige class is totally different than the base and should always be considered as such.

I do agree that until CM there was little to no support for the warlock class while wizards have been the focus of D&D since the very beginning.


Wizards/sorcerers can use scrolls and wands at low levels to make up for reduced spell slots when compared to the warlock's edritch blast. Wizards get scribe scroll as a free 1st level feat and a class can use a wand with a spell on their class list at any time. So a 1st level wizard could use a wand of fireball if he acquired one with no penalty.

At higher levels a warlock can use UMD to tremendous effect and has the choice on when choosing invocations along the way to get things like fly at will all day long (Fell Flight, lesser invocation, speed equal to land speed). He gets energy resistance 5 or 10 to two different energy types, DR (up to) 5/cold iron and Fast Healing 1/day from 1 to 5 (depending on level).

As I said IMO they are pretty well balanced throughout. Of course there will always be "bumps" and situations where a certain class is clearly more powerful than others, but that is part of the overall scheme of the system.

[Ariadne]

Never use prestige classes as measure of how balanced a base class is.
OK, if you compare true base classes, they are nearly balanced. The problem: Nearly nobody HAS only the base class meanwhile, IF he has enough choice between PrCs...


I do agree that until CM there was little to no support for the warlock class while wizards have been the focus of D&D since the very beginning.
This is sadly also true for spells vs. invocations. A warlock has not THIS much choice, neither in a number of invocations known nor in the number of invocations presented in several books. The wizard/ Sorcerer has a complete book full of spells (SC) ;)



Wizards/sorcerers can use scrolls and wands at low levels to make up for reduced spell slots when compared to the warlock's edritch blast. Wizards get scribe scroll as a free 1st level feat and a class can use a wand with a spell on their class list at any time. So a 1st level wizard could use a wand of fireball if he acquired one with no penalty.
OK, yes, they can, but I never saw a wizard (1st level), who actually wielded a wand of fireballs (much too expensive, even if you only compare the equipment, a character of this level should have). Scrolls are an option, but they cost gold, time and XP. If you can scribe some depends on the patience of the group, especially, if the campaign is fast moving...


At higher levels a warlock can use UMD to tremendous effect and has the choice on when choosing invocations along the way to get things like fly at will all day long (Fell Flight, lesser invocation, speed equal to land speed). He gets energy resistance 5 or 10 to two different energy types, DR (up to) 5/cold iron and Fast Healing 1/day from 1 to 5 (depending on level).
Nice things, but some spells simply ignore those gimmicks (say Orb of Force). You can fly around 24 h, that's cool, but even DR 5/ cold iron can't protect you from several things. If a warlock meets a fighter, he won't have much problems to survive or realy damage the fighter if he can stay out of range, the wizard or sorcerer is much more...complicated...

[irdeggman]

A wizard or warlock who in in melee range of a high level fighter (or even alow level one) will get his clock cleaned. That is one of the balances between the two "types" of classes.

A flying warlock with eldritch spear (range 250 ft) and DR 5/cold iron works great against arrows.

UMD is extremely useful and never discount that one. It can apply to any item (divine or arcane) and any class requirement (depending on spell list for instance). A warlock can take 10 on his UMD check and then apply his charisma modifer (his prime ability) and ranks in UMD - nope this can be real, real useful.

I have a player running a 2nd level dwarf fight/wizard who has a whole bunch of scrolls he made.

It take a day per 100o gp market value to make a magic item. A scroll of low level spells usually takes a day (the minimum time) - and a scroll can have up to 6 spells on it and still count as a single item.

Scrolls are soo cheap it is a shame people don't pay enough attention to that.

Market price of a scroll = 25 gp x SL x CL
Material cost = 1/2 of this (or 12.5 gp x SL x CL)
xp cost = 1/25 of this (or SL x CL)

The orb spells do not bypass energy resistance only SR - the two are not the same. It is a matter of picking the correct type, but by the same token a wizard or cleric must also choose the correct type when using eleimental resistance type of spells too.

[kgauck]

I would think that its inevitable that at some point, someone needs to conduct a realm turn, or do something significant and allow the spellcasters to really build some backstock on key items. I'd really prefer to see spells as a fall-back last resort power, because the time away from home or the nature of the encounters was unexpected.

I let druids carve glyphs on their staff, and treat it like a scroll. But they also hand out runes, which function like potions.

I'm just not keen on seeing spells cast per day be a limit. Scrolls, or the cultural equivilent, should be strikingly common.

[Ariadne]

A wizard or warlock who in in melee range of a high level fighter (or even alow level one) will get his clock cleaned.
If the Wizard/ Warlock can't protect himself adequat, so that the fighter hits often enough: I've never claimed something different... ;)


A flying warlock with eldritch spear (range 250 ft) and DR 5/cold iron works great against arrows.
No disagreement ;) , but a wizard with fly and stone skin who cast's disintegrate or polar ray is not this difference...


UMD is extremely useful and never discount that one. It can apply to any item (divine or arcane) and any class requirement (depending on spell list for instance). A warlock can take 10 on his UMD check and then apply his charisma modifer (his prime ability) and ranks in UMD - nope this can be real, real useful.
Use Magic Device http://www.planet-smilies.de/idee/idee_006.gif, jup ok, is more than useful if you have enough magic items available...


The orb spells do not bypass energy resistance only SR - the two are not the same. It is a matter of picking the correct type, but by the same token a wizard or cleric must also choose the correct type when using eleimental resistance type of spells too.
I'm aware of the fact that SR and Energy resistance are not the same. Orb of Force has no problems with energy resistance. Only "force ward", "ray deflection" or an unearthly high touch AC protects from it. Energy resistance 10 is nice, but even if you catch the "wrong" energy type, against a 15d6 Orb only a minor annoyance, especially if you can boost the spell by several feats (Searing Spell, Consecrate spell or simply empower/ maximize spell)...

[Thelandrin]

BR is a low-magic world, so anyone with great magical power will be a lot more powerful than he might otherwise be. It is a fact of D&D that high-level wizards, clerics and druids are the most powerful characters, bar none.

Of course, in BR this is different, since hardly anyone reaches high-levels and power is rated on your holdings and influence, rather than your individual power as an adventurer. Prince Fhileraine is noted as one of Anuire's greatest wizards, yet he is a 7/7 Ftr/Mage with access to Tuarhievel's entire sources, as well as being its leader.

[Ariadne]

BR is a low-magic world, so anyone with great magical power will be a lot more powerful than he might otherwise be. It is a fact of D&D that high-level wizards, clerics and druids are the most powerful characters, bar none.
You forgot the Sorcerer, but isn't that true for any setting, not only for BR?

[Thelandrin]

The Sorcerer isn't as powerful as the Wizard/Cleric/Druid, because all three have access to the complete spell lists (either instantly or eventually), as well as having other class powers. The Sorcerer doesn't have these abilities, but is certainly magically powerful.

[kgauck]

Prince Fhileraine is noted as one of Anuire's greatest wizards, yet he is a 7/7 Ftr/Mage.

How does one explain this?

[Thelandrin]

Well he's Elven, with one of the largest Source accesses in Anuire and with a potent Elven kingdom to back him up. If push came to shove, I'm sure Rhuobhe would help out too, considering that the awnshegh is the Prince's greatgrandfather.

[kgauck]

So then as a consequence he cultivates so little skill despite a millenium to do so? Certainly regardless of what Fhileraine wants, he must undertake actions that would, after so long a life, make him greater than 14th level. One would surmise anyway, so how does one explain his low number of character levels and his long life span?

[Thelandrin]

*shrug* I'm just commenting on what the books say.

[irdeggman]

So then as a consequence he cultivates so little skill despite a millenium to do so? Certainly regardless of what Fhileraine wants, he must undertake actions that would, after so long a life, make him greater than 14th level. One would surmise anyway, so how does one explain his low number of character levels and his long life span?

Age does not equal experience (in D&D terms).

So just because a character is "older" (or immortal, like an elf) this does not translate into character levels. It is one of those "issues" with how the game system is designed. Also, as written, there is no experience gained for domain actions only adventure ones. (again, another one of those "game" issues).

[kgauck]

No one has argued that age=experience, in D&D terms or in any terms at all. There is no generalization to contest about age and its relationship to the single specific case of Fhileraine. What is his personal and specific reason for being so low in level given his age and the particular circumstances?

Perhaps
1) He does not encounter CR's sufficient to give him much experience these days.
2) He's a layabout and spends all his days reading poetry and contemplating the shapes the clouds make.
3) His youth occupies a very large part of his life, so his total life span is decieving in such matters
3) The elves don't let him take risks much, he's mostly a vessel for his bloodline. See also case #1
4) Its a mistake, Queen Isaelie of Sielwode is a Wizard 13, and so much more powerful, plus there are several human Wizard 10, so the description is a mistake.

These are four distinct answers to my own question. They concern the world in which the prince dwells, and the challenges available to him; his personal nature and ambition; the culture of his society and the limitations on a regent, and the people who made the book in the first place.

Irdeggman, if Fhileraine were a PC in your campaign, what would he look like at his age? He's not a PC, and that is something of an explanation right there, but it can be described in terms like ambition or engaging in some other kind of activity, or being shielded from danger, or just the limitations you impose on characters of a certain level.

[AndrewTall]

KGauck: No one has argued that age=experience, in D&D terms or in any terms at all. There is no generalization to contest about age and its relationship to the single specific case of Fhileraine. What is his personal and specific reason for being so low in level given his age and the particular circumstances?

Andrew>
Interesting one, particularly as he was written in 2e when a F7/M7 needed only the same xp as a single classed L8 character although progression was slower.

A potential reason you missed out was forgetfulness - I see nothing to stop an elf who doesn't use class skills in a few centuries from losing them, he could have trained as a rogue before taking an interest in rulership and simply never made use to the skills again. (To many years ago I apparently spoke German and knew chemistry according to some old school books I found while cleaning up recently - now it's all greek to me, skill ranks from apparently quite reasonable to nil in a decade and change)

A reason that he has the great mage reputation is possibly simply the mystery of the unknown - with only 1-2 mages in any realm very few people could tell them apart with any real degree of skill and it's not like they get into duels frequently or the like. Fhileraene is therefore a great sorceror because he's lord of Tuarheviel - and everyone KNOWS that the elves are great wizards...

[Thelandrin]

Just as a thought, what reason do rich carefree Sidhelien have to do anything, least of all do something difficult like gain levels?

To continue with Fhileraine, he might be 7/7 simply because he's dossed around for 1000 years and that 125,000 odd XP is all he's been bothered to collect.

[kgauck]

What reason do rich carefree Sidhelien have to do anything, least of all do something difficult like gain levels?

None at all. But if this is true, and its also true that he is one of the greatest wizards in Anuire (putting aside the rather numerable wizards who are greater than 7th level), does he remain a figure of awe and amazement in a typical campaign? If so, how?

[Thelandrin]

Well, he is a Sidhe and a powerful regent and a very reasonable wizard. Other than that, I'm out :)

[AndrewTall]

I can see the Sidhe as mayflies who pick up a lot of different classes, etc, as they go along rather than focusing on one or a 'killer combo', but given that spending 2-4 decades adventuring in one class as barely more than a passing phase for them I would see high level as relatively normal amongst the Sidhe.

I also see the Sidhe as having the regent do a lot of the action - they don't have a large bureaucracy to leap into action to solve any problems - the regent themselves has to do it all - and that's a lot of adventure opportunities over a century or so.

On the reputation point for the prince I would stick to the wisdom of distance - one never seeks wisdom near to home, instead gurus on far off mountains and the like are seen as the font of knowledge, in the same way the local mage is just 'old Stiele' who gets his laundry done by old mother Tara like everyone else - the far off exotic Prince Fhileraene on the other hand is a 'real' wizard...