Heraldry

[kgauck]

Scratch that, Tuornen has abominable heraldry.

I have a problem with the heraldry as well, at least in Anuire. Since the purpose of heraldry is to identify someone clearly on a battlefield in dusty, confused, and hurried conditions, there is a need for clear, unambiguous blazons. But the PS do give us something interesting, its just figuring out what to do with it. I would figure that it either be the ancestory of the regent, or a geography of the realm, so its either a guide to families or places.

[prince_dios]

(yay, I kicked off another thread!)
Certainly, the covers of the player's secrets books should probably be ignored. It's hard for me to imagine a troop of soldiers in, say, Ilien's heraldy - brown with half a dozen objects scattered across it. Bright colors are preferable, with two icons at most.

Since I've some free time, I'm going flip through my Ruins of Empire book to list known heraldries - sorry, I don't know all the official terms, and recommend ways they can be brought in line with real life heraldry/common sense.

[Beruin]

I have a problem with the heraldry as well, at least in Anuire. Since the purpose of heraldry is to identify someone clearly on a battlefield in dusty, confused, and hurried conditions, there is a need for clear, unambiguous blazons. But the PS do give us something interesting, its just figuring out what to do with it. I would figure that it either be the ancestory of the regent, or a geography of the realm, so its either a guide to families or places.

I did a bit of reading about heraldry. Heraldry probably originated on the battlefield, but soon evolved on its own. It was esspecially important in tournaments. Here, the conditions were less confusing than in battle and heraldry served an important social role, depicting rank and social status. As a result, heraldic arms could become quite elaborate and sophisticated, used to show off one's splendour and magnificence.

Another important use was the depiction of heraldry on seals. Here too, the clarity and simplicity of the symbols used was not of particular importance.

I also think that the use of heraldry as a means to distinguish friend from foe in battle would be difficult at best. Simple bright colours would be more useful to clearly identify each side.

Generic pikeman #111: "How the heck was I supposed to know that Sir Whatever was on our side? I've never seen his coat of arms before!"

As a side note, before heraldry became strictly regulated, coats of arms were apparently assumed at will and this is what probably happened in the case of Tuornen.

[prince_dios]

So, based on Ruins of the Empire...

Roesone - Red field, black hart. Probably fine as is. *spends a minute oogling Marlae*

Aerenwe - Unknown - I think a tree on a white field would work nicely.

Diemed - Unknown. Yikes, we should get on this one. The lack of info on Diemed has always been vexing to me.

Ilien - Unknown - I'm going to pretend I never saw the cover of their book.

Medeore - Found on the cover of Player's Secrets book... why not simplify it to purple with a crescent moon, as befitting a Ruornite scoiety?

Mieres - Unknown - Something to signify their naval power? And they are on Aduria...

Boeruine - Behind the Archduke on p 22 is two lions facing one another on a purple field.

Talinie - The picture in Ruins of Empire shows a woman that we could assume is Thurienne Donalls, who wears a white surcoat with a blue bear. http://paizo.com/image/product/catalog/TSR/TSR3109_500.jpeg is the cover of the Secrets book. If we were to go with that, it would probably usually be simplified to a green field with a stylized tudor-like rose.

Brosengae - Unknown

Taeghas - Unknown

Avan - Hmm... red field, orange two-headed hawk, modeled by Prince Avan himself. I might be inclined to lighten the orange a bit for some attractive contrast, but it seems alright otherwise.

Ghoere - Assuming that guy is Gavin Tael, he's got on a red surcoat with an orange... I think it's a dragon. His armor has a green hue to it, but that's less signficant. I don't like that its so similar to Avan's.

Mhoried - Quartered light blue/white, with swords and scales. I like it.

Tuornen - http://www.rpgnow.com/products/WOTC/tsr3107.jpg - needs a fix. We haven't seen a lot of blue so far - and the women in Ruins is wearing a blue cloak. Blue field, White hart?

Alamie - Unknown

Elinie - Unknown - White with a sunbursts, befitting the ruling family's faith?

[prince_dios]

Dhoesone - Unknown - The half-elven baroness seems to wearing a plain old hunting outfit. I like the idea of her heraldry(if we're assuming ancestral-based heraldry) incorporating Tuarhievel's hawk, though...

Cariele - Unknown

Coerayns - Unknown - a hammer and sickle? :P

Osoerde - Unknown

So anyways - and correct me if I'm off base...
1) The one-color fields indicate the less dominant parent's heraldry probably isn't reflected in one's coat of arms.
2) Strong preference for animals over objects(buildings, weapons, stars, gauntlets, and the like)
3) Little in the way of Heraldic lines and ordinaries

[Beruin]

I'd agree that many of the depicted arms are bad/silly/too naturalistic, but I wouldn't oversimplify things.

With regard to Tuornen, IMO the symbols are okay, but the arrangement needs some work. Simply quartering the shield, with one symbol per quarter would probably look a lot better, but I would prefer moving the mug and the coins to the upper third of the shield (chief), dividing the rest of the shield horizontally (party per pale) and putting the stag's head on the right side (sinister) and the wheat sheaf on the left (dexter).

I also wouldn't ditch the tree trunk in Talinie's coat of arms as this symbolizes, according to the heraldry article in Dragon Magazine 275, p.59, something "worthy of veneration".

[prince_dios]

Would you leave Tuornen's arms that olive drab color or make it more of a middle green color?

[Beruin]

I would use a brighter, grassy green I guess.

Quoting from the already mentioned Dragon article (DR 275, p.52):


"Arms are represented by three main groups of tincture: colors, metals, and furs [...]; however, the actual hue of tincture is up to the artist depicting the blazon. This is a tradition that has continued since the time of Medieval heralds, who had to hand mix paints, thus making it nearly impossible to match colors between heralds."

Seems, the herald employed by TSR had a bad day when mixing this particular green;)

Btw, green (vert) can symbolize hope, quite fitting for a new realm, while black (sable), the color of the dividing bend, can symbolize grief, also fitting given the origin of Tuornen.

[Jaleela]

Black on Red or vice versa breaks most widely accepted rules of heraldry. Usually you have a metallic field (represented by white/silver and yellow/gold) and a colored charge, or the reverse.

The order is the field color and then the charge on it's most basic level. This does not go into ordinaries, subordinaries, stains, etc....

The Blazon (written or spoken aloud by a herald) for Boeruine would be: purpure, two lions combatant (rampant and facing each other) or, honour point a crown or.

I think Roesone is: Or and stag's head erased sable, or at least that's the badge that they seem to wear on the clothing.

For my campaign, I've created heraldry tables to roll up unique coats of arms. Those in the BRCS that made sense, I kept. The rest like Medore, and Ilien, I chucked.

Ghoere's would be gules (red) and wyvern/dragon or. See the metal on metal, color on color rule. While these do happen historically, they tend to be rare. The goal is to identify your adversary as well as your friends on the battlefield.

Historically a horrific gaff was made in the fog during the Barnet when Earl of Oxford's star with streamers banner was mistaken for Edward IV's Sunne in Splendour and the Lancastrians fell upon their own people. Ouch.

So it's important that you know the coats of arms of friend and foe alike. Also if your characters have livery colors and badges that are associated with your character.

[Jaleela]

Would you leave Tuornen's arms that olive drab color or make it more of a middle green color?

I agree with Beruin, I would select a more vibrant green. But the color really is up to the person creating the coat of arms. Green/Vert and Blue/Azure can range from light to dark.

[kgauck]

So, following on after Prince Dios,

Roesone - gold field, black hart. fits the rules of blazon better, and is the imagin in Ruins.

Ilien - Pick the boat image, classical blazon for a trading city like Nantes. We need colors, though.

Aerenwe - I'd select the unicorn from the Ilien arms, as a symbol of the Erbannien, probably white charge blue field.

Medeore - Prince Dios proposes "purple with a crescent moon, as befitting a Ruornite scoiety," but I think those are the arms of the Celestial Spell. Everyone needs arms, temples, guilds, so I'd go with the black and gold lozenges, or the gold and red bendy. I suspect that the second quadrant of the arms, are the three provinces of Medoere, suggesting that Medoere has no arms proper. I'm also keen on a field blue, a red chevron with a white border.

Mieres - See Ilien

Boeruine - I think the image on page 22 may be the same image mirrored, I'd go with a single lion rampant in gold on a purple field.

Talinie - white field with a blue bear

Avan - red field, gold two-headed eagle. The Imperial arms of both Germany and Russia is a two headed eagle.

Ghoere - red field with an gold dragon. Yes its similar to Avan, but with five colors and two metals to work with, you run out of original stuff pretty quickly.

Mhoried - The arms on page 38 are nice indeed, but what realm has quartered arms? I think those are his personal arms, representing the arms of Mhoried and the arms of the current ruling house. The arms shown on 22 may be the common form used, but I would hold that Mhoried proper is one of them.

Tuornen - Blue is a fine color for the field, I'll second that. The hart is fine, and appears on the PS, but we have no geometric shapes yet either, and I'd suggest Tournen's arms might be simply vair.

Alamie - I would suspect that Alamie and Tournen are very similar since both claim to be the true Archduchy of Alamie. Maybe Alamie is Vair and Tournen the white hart on blue as suggested.

Elinie - Unless the sunburst was a color, it violates the rules of blazon, and I'm inclined to reject white on gold or gold on white. Only the Papacy used those colors, and their arms are a bit special anyway. Aryia is a gold sunburst on blue (or green). Let's employ a color for either the field or the charge.

[Jaleela]

Ilien - Azure, a carack or (Ilien being on the Straits, and a rich city)

Aerenwe - Vert(?) to represent the Erebannian, a unicorn armed or (need the attitude: Rampant, couchant, etc...

No problem with medore bearing a crescent moon, makes since for the moon god.

Boeruine: I'm gonna stick with combatant lions. ;)

I created my own for Alamie.

Sunburst isn't a color. It is however a charge. Perhaps a red field with a rayed sun or. Might be a little too close to the symbol of Haelyn, so perhaps placing the sun on a green field?

Ariya seems to be a Turquois. So it'd be a varient of azure or vert.

[prince_dios]

If someone whipped up a couple nice full color pages of shields covering each realm's heraldry, would there be a place for them in the Atlas? How's the Atlas coming, by the way.

Until a week ago, I hadn't visited this place for a year or so.

[Doyle]

<snip>...
Ghoere - red field with an gold dragon. Yes its similar to Avan, but with five colors and two metals to work with, you run out of original stuff pretty quickly.
...<snip>

There's also a number of furs (4 from memory)
Which five colours was this being restricted to? I thought there was more used - only the primaries and black / white? If we are planning an organised heraldry for an entire continent (and I can't imagine it was too orgainised in RW history), perhaps we can use the secondaries as well, moving the range to eight colours?

Doyle.

[Jaleela]

Ermine (black fur on white), Ermines (white "tails" on black), Erminois (black tails on gold), Pean (gold tails on black), and Vair (6 different presentations) are furs.

Plumete (feathers)

Papellone

If a Sovereign has more than one territory, you can start partioning.

There are a ton of attributes, attitudes, ordinaries, sub-ordinaries, borders, marks of cadence, it's not as limited as one might think. ;)

[Jaleela]

Richard III gave the College of Heraldry their charter in 1483. It's been organized and understood for a few centuries.

There are some differeing rules at times, but there is a formal language.

[Jaleela]

Per Stephan Friar's "A Dictionary of Heraldry" pg. 30

tincture:

Metals:

Or Yellow Gold
Argent White Silver

Colors:

Gules Red
Azure Blue
Vert Green
Sable Black
Purpure Purple
Tenne (accented e) Orange
Sanguine Blood Red
Murrey Wine color

[kgauck]

http://home.mchsi.com/~gauck/Ilien.bmp
Ilien. A similar image can be seen on page 14 as a banner behind Rogr.

http://home.mchsi.com/~gauck/Avanil.bmp
Avanil. I have another version of this with a slightly different eagle.

[Jaleela]

I'd move the charge to a more central location on Ilien, it looks a bit odd sitting that low on the shield.

[kgauck]

http://home.mchsi.com/~gauck/Ilien2.bmp

The charge is centered a bit more. I brought this a little more into the standard colors I use. I have an awful lot of these, mostly historical.

[Jaleela]

Looks better. :)

I have a SL of Heraldry books sitting on my shelf, English and International. I just happened to have Friar's book by my computer last night.

[hirumatogeru]

I believe there was a very good sourcebook someplace, Kalamar or Greyhawk maybe, that included a whole bunch of coats of arms and symbols already done up. I'm sure you could find some great examples to use in there.

Sorry, can't remember the exact title, but maybe someone else will ;)

[kgauck]

I believe there was a very good sourcebook someplace, Kalamar or Greyhawk maybe

I have arms from Kalamar and someplace in the Realms, but I don't think we need those. They are basically identical to historical arms, except the proportion of fantastic creatures was higher and the number of cadence marks was lessor.

I was able to distribute both historical and player-requested arms for an on-line role playing community of nearly a hundred players in a 14th century game, each blazon of standard size and color scheme.

As someone noted, there are more animals and naturalistic symbols in Anuire (and I think throughout Cerilia) so it will take me some time to offer examples of some of the other realms. I do have arms with fantastic beasts, like griffons, dragons, and others I cannot recall off hand.

[prince_dios]

http://home.mchsi.com/~gauck/Ilien2.bmp

The charge is centered a bit more. I brought this a little more into the standard colors I use. I have an awful lot of these, mostly historical.

Looking good.

[prince_dios]

So... at this point we can whip up some coats-of-arms for the rest of the 'unknown' nations and add the compiled list to the Downloads section?(clearly marking the non-canon ones as such)

[Jaleela]

I was looking at the Sword and the Crown, Boeruine's CoA is definitely Lions combatant. The only error I made was placement of the crown. Though I think it makes more sense at the point of honor than at the base.

[kgauck]

http://home.mchsi.com/~gauck/Boeruine.bmp
Here is Boeruine, though I am not clear where the crown belongs. I can make tounge and claws Or if that is more accurate.

[kgauck]

http://home.mchsi.com/~gauck/Roesone2.bmp

This is a version of a hart I had available. Scanning the Ruins and going from there would be a little more photoshop intensive. I do like it.

[Jaleela]

If you depicted the Crown at the point of honour, that would place the crown above the fighting lions.

If you placed the crown as it appears in The Sword and Crown, it would appear below the lions. I think it makes more sense above. It doesn't appear in the Ruins of Empire, only the lions do.

So you could probably leave it as is.

You could arm (claws) and langue (tongue) argent too or make them gold. They don't have to be a different color.

[kgauck]

I used the arms of O'Carroll, Sable, two lions rampant, combatant Argent, armed and langued, Gules, Supporting a sword paleways, point upwards, Or. It was only after I posted the arms did I realize I left them armed and langued gules.

[Jaleela]

Not sure what people would think, but here's what we came up with for Diemed in our campaign, though I suspect that people will want to keep their own.

Parti per Fess murray and azure, a lion rampant guardant argent, armed and langued gules.

we created this before the PS of Diemed was released in PDF format. I found it surprising how close we envisioned the "official" Diemed to our version.

The shield is split horizontally. Wine on the top represents wine country and is also representative of a stain of honour from the past; the blue represents the port city of Ariele, and the white lion represents the wild white lions of the Bliene province.

[kgauck]

Parti per Fess murray and azure, a lion rampant guardant argent, armed and langued gules.

http://home.mchsi.com/~gauck/Diemed.bmp

Work done to order! OK, not rampant guardant, but I need to find one in my library first. Drawing from scratch takes a long time.

[kgauck]

http://home.mchsi.com/~gauck/Stjordvik.bmp

Stjordvik

[Jaleela]

Very nice.

OT: What are you using for your design app? Are these heraldic devices you picked up from a art collection?

[kgauck]

Mostly photoshop. Once I've added a charge to my library its just a question of cutting and coloring it. I like the idea that these are three dimentional objects so I try and make the center a little lighter than the edges. I've found some clipart charges, but I often end up re-working them because, other than the crosses and geometry, I'm not neccesarily satisfied. I currently have a library of about 1500 arms, weighted heavily towards members of the royal families of France and England, and those who took an active part in the hundred years war.

[Jaleela]

If you can lay your hands on the facsimile of the Grand Armorial of the Toison d'Or, volume two has the armorial bearings of the Kings and Princes who were members of the Order of the Golden Fleece and the associated heraldry of their kinsmen. Very cool two book set. It's in French, but the second book is fantastic.

[kgauck]

I've seen images of the equestrians and there are many armorials on the web that convert the arms to their own style (as I would do) as well. I have a nice little picture book of heraldry that includes Charles VII, Jean de Créquy, the Archbishop of Rheims (the only way you can tell its an AB, other than the index is that where in other pages angels hold the noble’s helmet for them, on his page it’s a cardinal’s miter), King of Poland, Guy of Pontalier, Duke of Brittany, Tibaud de Neufchâtel, Philippe de Ternant, Charles the Bold, and a piece on embarking for the crusades. I have other images of the duc de Brabant and the duc de Normandie from the Armoriaux Equestre de la Toison d'Or.

[Thorogood Roele]

Medeore - Found on the cover of Player's Secrets book... why not simplify it to purple with a crescent moon, as befitting a Ruornite scoiety?

Avan - Hmm... red field, orange two-headed hawk, modeled by Prince Avan himself. I might be inclined to lighten the orange a bit for some attractive contrast, but it seems alright otherwise.

Ghoere - Assuming that guy is Gavin Tael, he's got on a red surcoat with an orange... I think it's a dragon. His armor has a green hue to it, but that's less signficant. I don't like that its so similar to Avan's.

Mhoried - Quartered light blue/white, with swords and scales. I like it.

Only problem I see with Medeore as this---Purple with crescent moon is the exact symbol of Ruornil himself, might need to be modified a bit from that or there would be confusion.

Avan---his birthmark is the dragon. If you have the original BR box set one of the cards in there has pictures of different soldiers of the various sub continents, the soldier for anuire is an Avanese elite footman, it has Avanils crest on his talbred.

Ghoere and Mhoried..... their respective symbols are the reason for the name "the falcon and the wolf" Falcon is Mhoried and Wolf is Ghoere.

[Jaleela]

The soldiers livery and badge would not necessarily match the Soverign's heraldry. Just look at the English Wars of the Roses. Edward the IV had the White rose of York, the Sunne in Splendour, the White Lion of March, etc... The Yorkist livery colors were murray and blue.

Charles the Bold was mentioned in an earlier post. Before he became Duke, he was the Count of Charolais. His livery colors were black and purple with a silver st. andrew's cross and fire strykers in gold. His personal heraldry had nothing to do with his livery colors. When he became duke, he adopted the blue and white with the red st. andrews cross. He adopted the badge of his father, which was the fire steel in the shape of a B for Bourgogne. Livery colors tended to change based on the noble's desires.

Avan's badge could be a dragon, but his personal heraldry is an imperial two headed eagle. However, Anuire does not = Avanil. So the war cards might not be a good way to determine anything.

Medore might well have a unicorn instead of a Crescent moon, or it may have both symbols. In the PS of Medore, Suiris has walked in the company of a unicorn. Perhaps the flag's field isn't purple but rather a cobalt blue.(?) Mabye it has a border of silver.

The Mhor's heraldry seems to defy the accepted rules of heraldry. At a distance the light colors would be almost indistinguishable, making ID nearly impossible. This tends to be the same reason that you very rarely find metal on metal. The gold scales on blue work, the silver sword on white doesn't. Not only is it a metal on metal, it's technically the same metal.

[kgauck]

http://home.mchsi.com/~Gauck/Danigau.bmp
Possible arms of Danigau, with battlements and sword to evoke the fighting spirit and the colors and wand to evoke the magic using dynasty.

[Jaleela]

I used a wolf. A canton (play) on his ancestor's name. :D

[Arjan]

http://home.mchsi.com/~gauck/Diemed.bmp

Work done to order! OK, not rampant guardant, but I need to find one in my library first. Drawing from scratch takes a long time.

very nice, PNG it and add it to the Diemed page :P

[Jaleela]

Here's the lion guardant.

[kgauck]

http://home.mchsi.com/~gauck/Diemed2.bmp
Different style of lion, didn't have to enlarge it too much, but its not terribly detailed. I'm probabaly gonna a keep working on the lion.

[kgauck]

The arms of Haelyn and Avani are terribly similar, both having suns on them. Any ideas about how to resolve that?

[ryancaveney]

The arms of Haelyn and Avani are terribly similar, both having suns on them. Any ideas about how to resolve that?

Avani is the sun, so she needs to keep it. Haelyn, as Anduiras before him, is an air god, not a fire one, so his arms should drop it. For air I'd normally lean towards an eagle, but that was Basaia's totem animal; Anduiras's was the lion. Therefore, since Haelyn is the god of rulership as well as Anduiras's heir, I'd base Haelyn's arms on a crowned lion.


Ryan

[kgauck]

I always had a problem with the fact that the air god gets a lion (an animal actually found in Khinasi) and the Khinasi god gets the flying animal.

The Empire was an eagle, Haelyn should be an eagle.

The whole thing sounds like design by commitee.

[Sorontar]

May I remind you of the arms in the British Isles which historically involve a kingdom that used a lion as its symbol (Scotland) and one that used a set of leopards (England). Realism is nothing. Symbolism is everything. Just look at the artwork in churches to see how disciples, ideologies and saints are linked to symbols, e.g. the cross, animals, five-pointed stars etc. Heraldry works hand-in-hand with that. If Lord Bloggs is known as Bloggs Terminator, he may want to have arms that have a hammer over a cockroach, as *everyone* in Cerilia knows that the cockroach is a devil of a beast. This heraldry would work regardless of the fact that Lord Bloggs lives up in the snowy alps where it is so cold that even 'roaches won't go there for their skiing holidays.

So according to Wikipedia, Scotland has the lion because King William I of Scotland was the Lion of Justice. England has various possible reasons of why it got the leopards, which are also lions but were called leopards in the French heraldic descriptions/blazons.

So if you need to think of new arms for somewhere or someone, think of what is representative of them, historically or current, and what the holder of the arms might like to be representative of them.

Sorontar
ps. I would *hate* to think of what arms the Anuireans would attribute to Rhoubhe Manslayer (who would of course reject the entire concept of needing such a thing as heraldry).

[kgauck]

Lions are kings of the beasts, and so suit Haelyn, except that he's also an air diety, so why not the king of the sky, the Eagle? If that was all that was at stake, its half a dozen of one, and six of the other. But the Empire is the eagle too. Why take the Imperial symbol from Basia rather than Haelyn?

The thing about Lions actually being in Khinasi only reinforces that there is a displacement issue here. Lions were cool because the heros of the Mediteranean, both Biblical and Classical fought Lions. Why do Anuireans like lions? Because they secretly admire Khinasi? Because all Anuirean heros really did the coolest stuff in Khinasi?

English and Scottish admiration of the Lion as kingly brings up Daniel and Herakles. What exactly are Anuireans thinking?

[Gman]

Haelyn an air god??

Not in his portfolio - Noble god of war etc


Can I have a reference.

[Elton Robb]

English and Scottish admiration of the Lion as kingly brings up Daniel and Herakles. What exactly are Anuireans thinking?

I have no idea, but the English adopted the Lion because the monarchs of England claim descendancy from Judah (and there is no way to tell for sure). We, the United States, assumed the Eagle in our coat of arms because of what the Eagle represents. The most majestic bird in the sky (although Benjamin Franklin argued for the turkey) is the Eagle.

Now that aside, there is awfully nothing stopping you from changing the details of your campaign. If Andurias' totem animal is the Eagle and Basaia's the Lion; then go for it. :)

[kgauck]

America adopted the Eagle as the Roman symbol, being that we too were a republic. We also went very Roman in all of our architecture of state and selected Roman names instead of British names for our instituitions, such as the Senate. Things Roman were very fasionable, Washington had English translations of Romans plays put on for the army.

[Elton Robb]

America adopted the Eagle as the Roman symbol, being that we too were a republic. We also went very Roman in all of our architecture of state and selected Roman names instead of British names for our instituitions, such as the Senate. Things Roman were very fasionable, Washington had English translations of Romans plays put on for the army.

Still, the Arms as they were made was different than from the British Arms. :) The Great Seal wasn't, however. Thanks for that, I've apparently forgotten that little fact.

[Sorontar]

You are making Australia look like the twisted reality it sometimes is. We have a Senate (the upper house, which represents the states) and a House of Representatives (the lower house, which represent the people). Our arms are supported by such fantastic creatures as the legendary kangaroo and an emu. I have no idea what we were trying to emulate, bearing in mind that Australia has only been a federal commonwealth of states and territories for 106 years.

Sorontar.

[ConjurerDragon]

kgauck schrieb:
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
> http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=3598
> kgauck wrote:
> Lions are kings of the beasts, and so suit Haelyn, except that he`s also an air diety, so why not the king of the sky, the Eagle? If that was all that was at stake, its half a dozen of one, and six of the other. But the Empire is the eagle too. Why take the Imperial symbol from Basia rather than Haelyn?
>
> The thing about Lions actually being in Khinasi only reinforces that there is a displacement issue here. Lions were cool because the heros of the Mediteranean, both Biblical and Classical fought Lions. Why do Anuireans like lions? Because they secretly admire Khinasi? Because all Anuirean heros really did the coolest stuff in Khinasi?
>
> English and Scottish admiration of the Lion as kingly brings up Daniel and Herakles. What exactly are Anuireans thinking?
>
There might have been some Daniels and Herakles?s in the older history
of the Andu, perhaps even before the empire was born. Aduria with it?s
beastmen could be the place where lions dwell just as well as in the
khir-aften-el-Arrasi.

Why not simply use the sword as the symbol of rulership for Haelyn?

[ryancaveney]

I always had a problem with the fact that the air god gets a lion (an animal actually found in Khinasi) and the Khinasi god gets the flying animal.

OK, if we're changing that too, then sure! Eagle for Haelyn and Anduiras, lion for Avani and Basaia. As long as the totems match within each pair, I'm happy either way.


Ryan

[ryancaveney]

Haelyn an air god?? Not in his portfolio - Noble god of war etc Can I have a reference.

The original rulebook.

Haelyn's description on page 74 says he inherited the power of Anduiras. The blood ability Elemental Control (p. 25) says very clearly that Anduiras was the god of air, just as Basaia was fire, Masela water and Reynir earth. Therefore, summoning air elementals and casting gust of wind, as examples of the manifest power of the blood of Anduiras, are definitely things that Haelyn's scriptures and spells should still support. His priests have major spell access to the Elemental (Air) sphere, just as the sea goddess, Nesirie, grants major access to Elemental (Water) and the sun goddess, Avani, grants major access to Elemental (Fire). Anduiras was also nobility, courage, rulership and lawful war, as well as air -- everything Anduiras was, Haelyn was also, which includes elemental air.


Ryan

[Thelandrin]

It makes sense for Haelyn, the god of noble warfare to have a lion as his totem animal, simply because the lion is the noble warrior of the beasts.

Then again, if we're changing things, we need to look at the ehrsheglien requirements, as most (not all) ehrsheghlien end up having to be Lawful Neutral...

[Gwrthefyr]

I have no idea, but the English adopted the Lion because the monarchs of England claim descendancy from Judah (and there is no way to tell for sure). We, the United States, assumed the Eagle in our coat of arms because of what the Eagle represents. The most majestic bird in the sky (although Benjamin Franklin argued for the turkey) is the Eagle.

Now that aside, there is awfully nothing stopping you from changing the details of your campaign. If Andurias' totem animal is the Eagle and Basaia's the Lion; then go for it. :)

The Lion came from the arms of Normandy or Aquitaine (or both); Stephen of Blois, for example, apparently had something like a Wemic on them.

[Jaleela]

I have no idea, but the English adopted the Lion because the monarchs of England claim descendancy from Judah (and there is no way to tell for sure). We, the United States, assumed the Eagle in our coat of arms because of what the Eagle represents. The most majestic bird in the sky (although Benjamin Franklin argued for the turkey) is the Eagle.

Now that aside, there is awfully nothing stopping you from changing the details of your campaign. If Andurias' totem animal is the Eagle and Basaia's the Lion; then go for it. :)


England adopted the leopard, not the lion. The arms of england are gules, three leopards passant? guardant or. They remained thus until Edward III laid claim to the throne of France, through his mothers right, after the death of the last Capet king. Modern quarterings of Englands arms have been more than adequately covered by Kenneth - but you had the wrong big cats on the shield! They have nothing to do with the Anglo-Israeli delusion of the late 18th century onward, Medieval Englishmen believed the country was founded by the Trojans, not Jews. Jews were expelled from ENgland in the early 13th century, in fact, and were looked on with the greatest predjudice.

Scotland, on the other hand, has been Or, a lion rampant Gules, a border gules treasure-fleury, counter-fleury, since at least the mid 13th century. :)

[kgauck]

So called leopards are just lions in a particular posture.

[AndrewTall]

It makes sense for Haelyn, the god of noble warfare to have a lion as his totem animal, simply because the lion is the noble warrior of the beasts.


I must dissent. Male lions (the ones typically pictured) are more akin to scavengers and their combination of laziness and brutishness suit Belinik far more than Haelyn.

Give Haelyn a bear or a mastiff, far more noble warrior animals...

[cccpxepoj]

I must dissent. Male lions (the ones typically pictured) are more akin to scavengers and their combination of laziness and brutishness suit Belinik far more than Haelyn.

Give Haelyn a bear or a mastiff, far more noble warrior animals...

the beasts in heraldry have more mythological meaning, so lion is a animal that represents bravery and nobility.

[Jaleela]

In early armory, any lion that wasn't rampant was lion leopardé. Later it was applied to the lion passant guardant which gives us the "leopard of England".

[kgauck]

Lions are not scavengers, lions are hunters, but its not cost effective in terms of calories expended for males to hunt for themselves. The purpose of the male lion is to protect the pride (any species with significant sexual dimorphism has this going on). He's too big and heavy to hunt directly, since hunting is a huge energy expenduture, so the females hunt. But there are dangers on the veldt that the lionesses can't handle, and that's what the lion is for. That's why the pride only needs one of him.

[Beruin]

There might have been some Daniels and Herakles?s in the older history
of the Andu, perhaps even before the empire was born. Aduria with it?s
beastmen could be the place where lions dwell just as well as in the
khir-aften-el-Arrasi.


I like this rationalization. We know next to nothing of the ancient history of the five human tribes in Aduria, perhaps it's time to make up a few ancient Adurian myths...

[Gman]

I think Sir Thomas Malory had a book with a Hero who's Heraldry was a Lion conchant (I think thats the spelliing) and the Motto I sleep - wake me not.

Lion at rest or Lying down. I always liked that.

Lion is King of the Beasts and a symbol of pure physical power.
Its symbolism has been power and always associated with royalty and nobility.

[AndrewTall]

Lions are not scavengers, lions are hunters, but its not cost effective in terms of calories expended for males to hunt for themselves. The purpose of the male lion is to protect the pride

Hmm, I think it's laziness :) Males can hunt and do if unable to form a pride (i.e. driven off by an alpha male). I see them as definite Belinik types - gathering food is beneath them, fighting on the other hand...

Sexual diamorphism btw can also be a means of occupying two ecological niches, so avoiding having male and female compete against each other. Similar in a way to the way many species split into a gracile and heavyset form.