The Shadow & the Seeming....Revealed???

[MatanThunder]

:cool:

This post is a bit of debate me and one of my sons once had about how the shadow works and the Seeming worked in the game. The resolution of the situation was that the Shadow Realm (while a negative image of Cerilia) was connected to the negative material plane in some manner. Over the last few years I have wondered how that connection might be best explained in light of the Bloodspawn’s revelations about the nature of the Shadow and The Seeming. We had lacked the book at the time.

While I have come up with answers of my own that explain the issue, others might have other ideas. If you have any opinion feel free to post it. I am going to put forth my opinion and in that opinion I will also relate a number of monsters that may be directly descended from the Shadow Realms bosom.

1) The Connection to the Negative Material Plane! While the plane of shadow is now detailed in the Manual of the Planes (3.??), the issues of the powers of the seeming and the apparent ease of undead to issue forth from the Shadow Realms form time to time flies in the face of the statement that (Pg 60 MotP) that the “No Elemental or Energy Traits: Some small regions on the Plane of Shadow have the minor negative-dominant trait”, (called Darkholds), but they don’t seem to fit either. In the Atlas of Cerilia, pg9 “however, is populated with undead creatures; skeletons, and zombies serve as peasants, ghouls run towns, and ghosts control entire kingdoms”. This statement always made me think the realm of shadow was an extension of the negative material plane.

I do admit thought that the realm of shadow is very much connected to the plane of shadow; complete with the connection to superimposed image of the real world, and its ability to give life to illusion/phantasm. But there is much more to it with the very living nature of the seeming, and it’s ability to alter shadow magic or in the case of Cerilea Illusion. What makes the illusion connection fall on its face it the fact that spells of light will fizzle on the plane of shadow, which clearly some illusions of light generated by the seeming do!! (blur, dancing lights, mirror image are just the slight seeming power. With this reference they seem to put the plane of shadow out of the realm of use for the entire world of Cerilea and its connection to the Shadow Realm.

Maybe this is “small” in comparison to the plane of shadow, but as big as the world of Cerilea, which would create a significant Darkhold.

So if it isn’t the plane of shadow, what is the Shadow Realm?? The Atlas of Cerilia says it is a “presumably another dimension”.

I would say that since they recognize, “the Minor negative Dominant Trait” called the Darkland is part of the plane of shadow; I would extrapolate that the entire Shadow Realm of Cerilea is an extremely large & mutated Darkland that is at once both connected to the plane of light (positive) and darkness (negative) planar power. The ether is connected to the plane of shadow, so this connection is possible. It would also explain the use of those light based illusions as I’m sure that the positive material plane would offer power to the light based magic.

Furthermore, in the Rulebook from the boxed set it describes the Shadow World as, “A parallel world of cold, eternal twilight that exists when night falls over the land”. This “Twilight” might very well be a symbol of the fight of light & dark that caused the rift that created the shadow world in the first place. Add to that the fact that night weakens the border area (ethereal border) and allows for the rift to occur which can emit undead, and I’m sure you can see my point on the subject.

2) In the Bloodspawn I quote: “A power that suborneded by an ever greater force; the Seeming an unpredictable force”. The seeming is a force that appear to be alive. Alive in my opinion with the motive power of phantasm, which are a creation of light and dark magic that takes a physical misty form. I have read any number of spells (like phantasmal killer) that imparts a motive force (life energy driven) goals into a phantasm. I see the Shadow Realms of shadow as alive with this illusionary energy because of its battle between light and darkness. If you read up on phantasms they are neither a creation of light or darkness, but appear to have elements of both. And a motive force is imparted by the caster.

Then who is the creator of the Shadow Realm’s motive force?? Why Azrai of course. And the Cold Rider is an incarnation of his spirit that will abide in the Shadow Realm for all time! It is bore out in a number of parallels. First the shadow realm mirrors events, topography, and creatures on the face of Cerilia. The Cold Rider is the arch bad force in the shadow realm and by extrapolation he should be a shadow incarnation of azrai. I can’t find the reference this second, but it is mentioned that Elves fear the realm to this day. I would say that a lot of your folk being swayed by Azrai in the world of Cerilia, then I think in the evil phantasm forces of the Seeming that the dread of falling under his incarnations power would be a powerful force to fear, whether the elf was for or against Azrai at Deismaar. Remember some of these elves were there. Elves of Cerilia are very very long lived indeed.

The Seeming could very well be a part of the imprinted nature of Azrai’s chaotic & evil nature that is imprinted on this part of the plane of shadow.


This is why I play up the connection of the Shadow Realm and the negative material plane. I was playing it as a full blown connection until the (3.?) Manual of the Planes came out. I may not play 3.whatever, but I do convert usable material back into 1st/2nd edition.


3) I have a short list of creatures that I would like to ascribe to the Shadow Realm, and while some of the stats are from other campaign settings, their connection to a shadow realm can easily be made. The the (3.?) Manual of the Planes it mentions for the plane of shadow the shadow mastiff, the nightshade, the ecalypse, umbral banyan, and darkbeast. See the manual of the planes for the stats.

a) The Malaugrym: While these shape shifting masters of Faerun may seem incongruous with Cerilia, I would point out this part of the monsters entry, “Malaugrym’s are creatures of pure evil native to some Alien plane”. The Shadow Realm is quite an alien place. I have also read several novels that mentions there master/father being a dweller of the plane of shadow and and illusionist. Where better to hone your skills of illusion than a plane where phantasm creations of the seeming are but a thought away. Maybe he was even a child of Azrai who traveled to Faerun, or was it the other way around.!!!!!

b) Bastellus: A creature of Ravenloft, this creature could be a very easy addition to the Shadow Realm. The creature inhabit dreams which totally connects with the strengthening of the shadow realm at night also. It would be a threat to any creature sleeping in the Shadow Realm, which I have read can happen from time to time. (The Iron Throne).

c) Ravenloft Creatures: While I specially mention the Bastellus, the entire plethora of creatures created for Ravenloft could well have a phantasmal parallel in the Shadow Realm. The creatures conversions practically write themselves.

d) Flying creatures could be quite a threat in the shadow realm. The creatures sweep out of the darkness, snatch the hapless and slip back into the dark. Quite a killer. I would recommend Darkenbeasts to any spell casting undead of the Shadow Realm. Their creation is an evil act, but it just gives the evil magic wielding undead another reason to tramp on the surface of Cerilia to garner the needed components.

e) And of course there is the listed creatures at the back of Bloodspawn.

I could list more but I think the post may be too long. We shall see.

What do you think of the idea of the Shadow Realm being an extension of the plane of shadow, twisted by the battle of positive and negative energies to create a unique Darkhold????

Later

;) :cool:

Lo there do I see my father,
Lo there do I see my mother, and my sisters, and my brothers,
Lo there do I see do I see the line of my people, back to the beginning,
Lo they do call to me,
They bid me take my place among them,
In the Halls of Vahalla
Where the brave,
May live,
Forever

Randomize it adds spice to a predictable games plot line (especially if they have read it before).

Have everyone roll their dice before the adventure and tick them off one by one, it helps speed up the game and allows the DM more time to think on his feet.

Turn them all into rainbow colored mushrooms and drop them from 300’ to the tune of the anvil chorus!! (The Simbul did just that to some nasty Malaugrym!!)

[kgauck]

What do you think of the idea of the Shadow Realm being an extension of the plane of shadow, twisted by the battle of positive and negative energies to create a unique Darkhold????

I think its an attempt to reconcile a BR enviroment to standard D&D planes. As such it doesn't really interest me (which is not to say there is anything wrong with it) as I don't play in any other D&D settings.

I do think that the Shadow World is an integral part of the setting, and I've tried to integrate it as completly as the political/domain rules. Magic is generally a Shadow World effect of one kind or another. This leads to intersting possibilities for witches, who channel the SW directly, rather than mebhaighl, and are corrupted by this power. I think this puts the Five Oaths in interesting perspective, as well as the Rjurik antipathy towards arcanists.

The rules for taint (now in Unearthed Arcana as well as other settings) put an interested mechanism on contact with this fell force. The Heros of Horror and Libris Mortis are good sources for Shadow World fun, but need to be approached selectively since they are general works, and BR is a specific setting.

[blitzmacher]

I always played it as though it was the spirit world for cerilia. Meaning that when one died they traveled to the shadow world first. It was there where either they were chosen to go to one of the gods halls, or stay there to be reborn back in cerilia. Deismaar and Azrai's taint changed that. Now if the dead are not chosen by their gods, they become undead in the shadow world, servants of the cold rider.

[MatanThunder]

:rolleyes: :D


As such it doesn't really interest me (which is not to say there is anything wrong with it) as I don't play in any other D&D settings.

And you shouldn't feel compelled to do so. I do this in part to connect the other AD&D game worlds together. They can each be reached by the inner elemental planes, even Dark Sun. Now if you draw a connection between all the campaigns to Birthright, you now set the stage for what I would really like to see "Weenies WOTC" take on.......Impose the BR campaign settings stats on each game world and provide battle information for these world.

Would that be a kicker, Faerun set up BR style, same with Greyhawk, Planescape, and now lets go off world with it with Spelljammer. Now that would be an Epic game....clashes in space.

Now some may want to shelter BR in order to protect its special nature....I on the other hand would like to see all Campaigns take on BR stats......and maybe become more epic in their scope of campaigning for those of us who enjoy the campaign.


or stay there to be reborn back in cerilia. Deismaar and Azrai's taint changed that. Now if the dead are not chosen by their gods, they become undead in the shadow world, servants of the cold rider.

The idea is great for your campaign....From what I re-read yesterday there are a number connections with the forces of light and darkness that are part of what forced the schism that formed the Shadow Realm.

Just a question, if the Shadow Realm is your (way stop/transitional realm) in you game, how do you explain what happened to the dead before the schism. Did they all go to heaven/the outer planes?? It is a question that sort of begs an answer to clarify how you run it now. I do see your logic though.

Later

;)

[kgauck]

Now if the dead are not chosen by their gods, they become undead in the shadow world, servants of the cold rider.

I too give a great deal of spirit world quality to the SW, including shaman type classes and feats and lots of spirit activities, from spectral scions to more traditional hauntings.

I think that the whole reason you have a funeral is to alert the diety in question that they have a spirit to pick up at this location. So you have a cerimony and gather around the body to protect it. The cerimony both acts as a message to the halls of the diety and as a beacon to the entity sent to collect the dead (over here, over here). A body dead without a funeral kind of has to fend for itself in the spirit world. Some spirits of powerful or especially willful people can make the journey themselves. But for most people, if they don't get picked up and assisted in the treacherous journey through the SW to the halls of the gods, they get abducted by powers in the SW can forced to serve.

As a result of the Sprit World focus, there are SW abilities like detect spirits, rebuke spirits, and so on, just like undead. In fact I regard them as semi-overlapping. Some undead have no spirit (skeletons and zombies) and some spirits are not dead (lots of natural spirits) but there are plenty of spirits that are dead (ghosts, specters, &c) that are both.

The Book of Priestcraft didn't give priests of Erik the ability to turn undead, so in 3E, when I use clerics of Erik (rather than druids) I give them the ability to rebuke spirits instead.

[geeman]

At 08:14 PM 3/14/2007, MatanThunder wrote:

>What do you think of the idea of the Shadow Realm being an extension
>of the plane of shadow, twisted by the battle of positive and
>negative energies to create a unique Darkhold????

Because the SW is a mirror image of the daylight world of Aebrynis it
differs quite a bit from the standard D&D concept of a shadow
plane. It literally is a breakaway aspect of the "real" world. I
don`t personally mind connecting up BR to the "normal" D&D cosmology,
and the SW might be some sort of connection through the Plane of
Shadow. In fact, I like the idea for various reasons having to do
with how/why magic works the way it does in BR. However, one
particular thing should be kept in mind: the separation is profound
and very, very difficult to breach. That`s why there are only a few
BR gods. That`s why most arcane magic is so difficult to cast (and
requires some sort of divine/spiritual connection to employ.) That
separation is why Azrai was able to become so powerful. IMO, it
should go something like this, though:

Material plane that houses Aebrynis --> Shadow World --> Plane of
Shadow --> All the rest of the planes of existence.

The SW should be a barrier between Aebrynis and all other D&D planes
of existence.

>I think that the whole reason you have a funeral is to alert the
>diety in question that they have a spirit to pick up at this
>location. So you have a cerimony and gather around the body to
>protect it. The cerimony both acts as a message to the halls of the
>diety and as a beacon to the entity sent to collect the dead (over
>here, over here). A body dead without a funeral kind of has to fend
>for itself in the spirit world. Some spirits of powerful or
>especially willful people can make the journey themselves. But for
>most people, if they don`t get picked up and assisted in the
>treacherous journey through the SW to the halls of the gods, they
>get abducted by powers in the SW can forced to serve.

I have that whole "Death the Final Adventure" essay written up for BR
in which souls from the land of light must traverse the SW in order
to get to their final resting places in the rest of D&D`s cosmology.

Gary

[Sorontar]

I like to think of the SW as resembling the Shadow Worlds in Zelazny's Amber series. The BR SW is malleable and changeable. Different sections have "rules" and "norms" according to those who live there and manipulate them. But it can easily look like something familiar to those people who live in Cerilia.

Of course, the fact that the undead like the BR SW and shadows help provide a big link between Cerilia and the SW is a big difference IIRC to Amber's world. I really should read that series again....

Sorontar

[kgauck]

The BR SW is malleable and changeable. Different sections have "rules" and "norms" according to those who live there and manipulate them.

Under the rubric of Shadow World, I have done stuff in the world of dreams, the spirit world, a dark mirror of Cerilia (to include evil versions of the PC's), the land of undead, and the Seelie faeries.

In fact, I think the home of the Fae is the Shadow World, and creatures with the fae descriptor are outsiders. For instance, the nymph doesn't dwell in her little pond, the pond is her gate from the DW to this world. Likewise the dryad and her tree. Its not that the dryad is "mystically bound to a single, enormous oak tree," but rather that she was able to pass from the SW to the daylight world through thos tree and because of the ability she excercises or the magic she uses to do this is teathered to her gate, and can't "stray more than 300 yards" without breaking her teather to her home plane and her source of life.

[AndrewTall]

I see the Shadow World as still partly the Spirit World it was before it was corrupted by Azrai. Now some areas are corrupted, some have become 'lighter' as the evil aspects migrate towards the corrupt areas, some remain a dull echo of Cerilia, some seethe with the seeming and change to suit the whim of nearby events and beings, etc.

So in elven realms and other places with high source ratings you can find links to the Shadow Realm which either link to 'fey' areas (if an area full of life) or to 'corrupt' areas if a fell area. More neutral areas of Cerilia link to the old 'empty' sort of shadow world or to 'wild' zones where the seeming changes rapidly.

I don't use gods, but if I did then their realms would connect to Cerilia via the Shadow World. As is those people with particularly strong spirits might manifest in the shadow World after they do, those who die there likely rise as undead, etc.

[blitzmacher]

{Just a question, if the Shadow Realm is your (way stop/transitional realm) in you game, how do you explain what happened to the dead before the schism. Did they all go to heaven/the outer planes?? It is a question that sort of begs an answer to clarify how you run it now. I do see your logic though.}


The same as after the schism, as the shadow world and BR world was the same, constantely changing. Meaning they went to the halls of their gods, or their spirit roamed the natural world. The only one who may really know would be the Seelie Queen.

[MatanThunder]

:D :cool:

I would disagree on this quoted point, but would gladly accede to whatever way you see the subject of debate. Each to their own. I am working up a comparison of the Plane of Shadow and the Shadow Realm as rendered by the Games Controllers.

The Quote:


That`s why most arcane magic is so difficult to cast (and
requires some sort of divine/spiritual connection to employ.)

I would say that wherever you picked up this "idea" that you somehow May...just may have misunderstood magic on Cerilia.

Quote from the Book of Magecraft.....Page one, paragraph one,

"Cerilia is a land touched by magic-- from the air breathed by the peasants and regents to each grain of sand jostled by crashing waves" (A reference to the magics weave/fiber being bound to the land), "The continent possess great expanses of territory where enchantment lies soft as a child's whisper; deep canyouns where arcane energy thunders strong and vibrant through the earth".

Para 2

Most of Cerilia's people look upon these energies with awe and respect--mixed with fear, superstition, and confustion. A few individual's, however, understand the continent's mystical forces, their intricacies and nuances, their place in nature. And fewer can command these forces--channel them into flashing bursts of energy that fill the night sky, form them into crackling bolts of lightning that fell monsters, fashion them into invisible barriers that keep foes at bay."

It goes on after that to describe their powers of rulership with the magic. So it isn't that magic is harder to cast or use, it is the fact that few can cast the magic. That finding a teacher may be harder to do. That townfolk will see the caster as a threat to be banished or destroyed.

It is a matter of gaming style so if you personally want to make magic harder to cast then feel free to exercise your right as a DM. It isn't inherently more difficult though under the rules.

I am working on the word for word comparison of the Plane of Shadow vs. the Shadow Realm. The descriptions are very similar and I know not everyone has access to such details or minutia. I am just trying to support my point that the realms have an extreme amount in common when it comes to their description.

Later

:rolleyes: ;)

[irdeggman]

It goes on after that to describe their powers of rulership with the magic. So it isn't that magic is harder to cast or use, it is the fact that few can cast the magic. That finding a teacher may be harder to do. That townfolk will see the caster as a threat to be banished or destroyed.

It is a matter of gaming style so if you personally want to make magic harder to cast then feel free to exercise your right as a DM. It isn't inherently more difficult though under the rules.

I think that he was referring to the fact that in order to cast "greater" magic (in second ed "magic" refered to wizardly magic, in 3.x terminology it is arcane magic) a character had to either be blooded (have the essence of the old gods running through them) or have elven blood (again there is the connection to the Sie there).

[kgauck]

Just a question, if the Shadow Realm is your (way stop/transitional realm) in you game, how do you explain what happened to the dead before the schism.


The same as after the schism.

Before the schism, travels of spirits through the spirit world were untroubled. Afterwards, the spirit world became a shadow world, dark and menacing. Malevolent spirits attack and capture the dead now.

This is one of the reasons that battlefields and other places of catastrophe weaken the veil between the daylight and shadow worlds.

[Nameless One]

Maybe I'm joining the debate a little too late now, but here's how I plan to explain the Shadow World in my future game:

The canon is that before the Deismaar what is now known as Shadow World was a world of magic and wonders, a contrast of low-magic Aebrynis as we know it. Cosmology-wise, Shadow World and Aebrynis are parallel worlds, both part of the Prime Material Plane, but Shadow World is connected directly to other planes while Aebrynis isn't. Any connection to other planes must go through the Shadow World. That's why the Shadow World was the place rich in magic and Aebrynis the opposite. Unlike the "modern" Aebrynis, the magic in the world before Deismaar was much more like the magic of other settings. Travel through Shadow World was much less dangerous and summoning of extraplanars was much easier. When Azrai was destroyed a part of him fled to the Shadow World and corrupted it, tearing the barriers between the Shadow World and the Planes of Shadow and Negative Energy so parts of those planes spilled into the Shadow World. As a result, all Summon Monster spells can summon only creatures with Shadow Creature template (from Lords of Madness), elemental summoning is impossible as well as planar travel and planar summoning spells like Planar Binding. All spells that allow or affect planar travel are altered to work with the Shadow World. In addition, all Summon Monster and Illusion (Shadow) spells are available only to evil character.

I think that explaining the Shadow World through traditional D&D view is necessary because of the effect it has on magic in Birthright setting. If I won't allow my players to summon outsiders then I have to come up with an explanation.

[MatanThunder]

;) :D

Here is that added information that I was going to post. I was going to post the comparisons side by side, but that seemed lengthy, and prone to misinterpretation of my drubbing home my point of view.

Instead I have opted for a source based listing that features where a description came from, which you can interpret as you see fit for your game or as a debate point.

For those of you who have defended another type of recognition of what the Shadow Realm is, do NOT take this as a personal assault on your belief system of what the Realm should be.

I am providing these detail (and their sources) to provide a number of points in order to support my beliefs about how the planes are connected, despite how Weenies of the Cr** failed to either connect or in better describing the differences of the two realm. I feel that they could be one and the same.

Pg 88 Cerilia Rulebook, “Cerilia has a dark counterpart—a parallel world of cold eternal twilight that exists when night falls over the land. The intangible border between Cerilia and the sinister twin can be breached only by powerful magic, but this border is weak and vulnerable in places where great evil has occurred, and on the darkest winter nights. Cerillians refer to this evil place as the Shadow World, and believe that any supernatural evils such as undead and fiends come from here.

Those few who have crossed over to the Shadow World report that it resembles a dark and distorted version of Cerila. Mountains and rivers stand where similar features exist in the daylight world, but the land is cold and empty. A musty, aged crypt may hold nothing but moldering bones in Cerilia, but if one were to enter the same cryps in the Shadow World—or eve on a night when the Shadow World was near—wights, spectres, or worse might be encounterd.”

And….”Time flows differently in the Shadow Land. Many dimensional magics such as dimension door and shadow walk use this property by creating short-lived passages through the Shadow World. Wizards must be extremely careful of using these spells; more than one mage has vanished while using such a spell and never returned from the Shadow World.”

Pg 9 Atlas of Cerilia; “This region (presumable of another dimension, we have surmised) seems to co exist with Cerilia and occasionally overlap into our land. The landscape is eerily similar to Cerilia, and events of Cerilia are mirrored in the Shadow World. This realm, however, is populated by undead creatures; skeletons and zombies serve as laboring peasants, ghouls run towns, and ghosts run town, and ghosts control entire kingdoms.

As you may know, it has been discovered that “weak spots” exist—something like oiled parchment in windows that allows light to pass but keeps out solid materials. These weak spots are almost always places of death and destruction, and they allow the Shadow World to press in on Cerilia. At these weak spots, undead can pass through to wreak terror on the living—but also the living may stumble through to a land of terror. Stull during the time of conquest that followed the war against Azrai, the Shadow World posed little threat to those who knew of its dangers, and no one saw an immediate way to destroy it, so the rulers continued on their quests for domination and ignored this strange discovery.

To this day, the Shadow World remains a place of mystery to everyone but the halfings who live scattered throughout Cerilia. A few souls have set about studying that realm, but most folk prefer not to talk about it. In some parts, mention of the Shadow World is strictly forbidden."



The Shadow Plane…..I am only including a little of the material here on the plane. It is several pages long, and if you really want it all you should snatch up a cheap 3.? Manual of the Planes and look into it.

Pg 59 Manual of the Planes;

Plane of Shadow: It is a toxic plane of darkness and power. It is the hidden place that hates the light. It is the frontier of worlds unknown. The Plane of Shadow is darkly lighted dimension that is both coterminous to and co existent with the material plane. It overlaps the Material Plane much as the Ethereal Plane does, so a planar traveler can use the Plane of Shadow to cover great distances quickly. The Plane of Shadow is also coterminous to other planes. With the right spell, you can use the Plane of Shadow to visit other realities.

The Plane of Shadow is a world of black and white; color itself has been bleached from the environment. It is otherwise appears similar (but not exactly identical) to the Material Plane.”

Here are excerpts from the following four paragraphs.

1) Black vault with neither sun nor stars, landmarks twisted and warped things, diminished reflections.
2) Plane of shadow is highly morphic, and parts continually flow onto other planes. Maps are useless despite landmarks…..precision is a lost cause.
3) The terrain of the Plane of Shadow is usually similar to the area where the traveler enters…….although it usually bears some resemblance to the corresponding terrain on the Material Prime.
4) Spells often draw forth parts of the Plane of Shadow, in particular for illusions that have the shadow descriptor. The Plane of Shadow is a monochromatic world, but shadow material pulled from it can be any color. The spellcaster usually colors, shapes, and shades of shadowstuff to make it more convincing. A shadow evocation that produces a fireball, for example, appears like any other fireball to those fooled by the illusion. (Fully listed for comparison to Illusion material of the Shadow Realm).



Shadow Traits, “The Plane of Shadow is in many ways the dark duplicate of the Material Plane (Cerilia in this case). Much is similar, but there are significant differences. The Plane of Shadow has the following traits.

NORMAL….Gravity, Time (but refer to shadow walk info below), mildly neutral & Infinite Size. (Time may be normal but your rate of travel is highly accelerated)

Shadow Conjuration & Shadow Evocation ….within the Planes of Shadow make them particularly useful for explorers and native alike.

I have listed the Elemental and Energy Traits section as part of my argument that the Cerillian Shadow Realms is somewhat different from the Plane of Shadow in some ways.

Shadow Links: The most common way to visit the Plane of Shadow is to use a shadow walk spell for fast travel from one point to another on the Material Plane. The spells moves its targets up to 7 miles per 10 minutes on the Plane of Shadow, regardless of one’s normal speed. Such travel happens entirely on the Plane of Shadow, so travelers don’t see much of the intervening terrain on the Material Plane. Ending the spell returns the travelers to the Material Plane, again in a shadowy location if possible.



In final analysis you might wonder what all this means. I would say a little or as much as you want it to in your game.

The idea is that there are a lot of similarities in the two regions, and the Plane of Shadow itself is said to leach into other planes……despite what is mentions somewhere (please someone help me out here and point me in the direction of the material about connections to the other planes/realms so I can review it) about Cerilia being cut off.

I would say that this is somewhat naïve. The inner and outer planes are interconnected to ALL prime material planes: Greyhawk, Faerun, Dark Sun (yes elementally at least), Spelljammer, Mystara, Dragonlance, Arduin, Midkemia, Home Brew, and every piece of planar fantasy fiction has some form of interconnection (like Midkemia).

To think that Cerilia is somehow cut off may not reflect what the planes mean to all prime material planes. Heck if you are saying Cerilia is cut off from the inner planes, then you still have to reflect on the facts that the dead can still reach their final resting place on the outer planes. If the dead can travel the Astral plane then outsiders (as 3.? Calls them) can also get in. A one way passage may exist in some gate features, but there is NO way that you can cut off the whole plane from something as vast as the Astral and its all encompassing nature of the cosmos.

Now remember you can see and play it as you want, but the The Shadow Plane and the Shadow World (Realm) are similar on a number of points. If the Astral has a connection then there should be NO reason why the inner/ethereal connection is not present, especially in the face of the fact that the Shadow connection is there.

More to come,

Later

:D ;)

[Trithemius]

For me, the Shadow World is the realm of potentiality and mutability as compared to the typically more stable mundane world. In this it probably resembles the Spirit World of OA, as some others have mentioned.

The Shadow World is a corrupt place though, tainted by the interest of Azrai and polluted by his essence after his defeat.

It is the place of magic; mebhaighl, which seeps into the earth and pools according to mysterious laws, is the remnant of the potentiality of the Shadow World that was trapped in the mundane world after the two lands were separated by creation of the Evanescence bythe immortals.

Azrai, before all, was interested in the powers of the Shadow World. The scope for change and the ability to absolutely impose his will and his creativity on the mutable substances of the world before the separation pleased him, and he perhaps resisted his fellows despite the novelty of their project? Vorynn too was intrigued by its powers, but supported the separation and became the guardian of the Evanescence and the patron of lesser magic - those powers that were sanctified by his deeds and made safe for mortal men.

The souls of the dead flow back to the Shadow World, their primeval font. There, now, they risk corruption and so Ruornil, Vorynn's Heir and the psychopomp of Cerilia, and leads the spirits of the departed through the murk to Neserie's Embrace, or perhaps to other places?

The sidhelien are fascinated with magical things, and the mysterious journeys their dreaming minds take into the Evanescence. Here they sidhelien sometimes touch upon the minds of their cousins - who lie trapped and forgotten on the other side even as they are. Perhaps the empires of the ancient sidhelien were merely to give them more time to explore these peculiar half-conscience journeys, or perhaps they were to recapture the barely-recalled glories of the time before time.

Those called the halflings by men know much of both worlds, and once walked between, crossing the Evanescence by some mysterious sleight. They are found more and more in the mundane world, claiming to those that earn their trust that they have fled a terrible evil. They refuse to speak about the source of their unusual powers though, or why they of all creatures can pass through the Evanescence.

[MatanThunder]

:confused: ;)

The idea is that there are a lot of similarities in the two regions, and the Plane of Shadow itself is said to leach into other planes……despite what is mentions somewhere (please someone help me out here and point me in the direction of the material about connections to the other planes/realms so I can review it) about Cerilia being cut off.

1) Can anyone tell me what page states that Cerilia is cut off from the rest of the planes????

2) Does the affects of (It is the place of magic; mebhaighl,) allow for alterations in magic, magic rich areas, and other such affects??

3) Is there a connection to the Plane of Shadow.

Later

;) :rolleyes:

[Trithemius]

1) Can anyone tell me what page states that Cerilia is cut off from the rest of the planes????

Cerilia's "distance" from the other planes and its lack of portals is mentioned in "The Planewalkers' Handbook" (TSR2620); unsure of the page sorry, this is from memory since I sadly do not have a copy of that particular book. That's an AD&D2e resource, it might also be covered in the BRCS but I don't really spend a lot of time with the BRCS (not my cup of tea).

It's not as "distant" as Athas, although Athas has all kinds of crazy problems (the wrong elemental planes, wacky transitive planes, no god-supporting phytoplankton, etc).


2) Does the affects of (It is the place of magic; mebhaighl,) allow for alterations in magic, magic rich areas, and other such affects??

In Aebrynis or in the SW? It obviously allows for it in Aebrynis (caerbhaighlien, high magic potential provinces, etc). In the SW who knows? Magical power might ebb and flow and pool according to who is around and whether or not some powerful being is shaping the place.


3) Is there a connection to the Plane of Shadow.

Maybe in your game, not in mine.


;) :rolleyes:

...

[MatanThunder]

:cool: ;)

Thanks!

I couldn't remember what resource it was, I just knew I read it somewhere. I will check my planewalkers guide when I get the chance.

I also will have to look in spelljammer for any references to the Cerilian connection.

There are shells in the phlogiston that are out of the major flow areas that could well be beyond normal spelljammer technology to reach.

Later

:cool: ;)

[Trithemius]

:cool: ;)

Thanks!

I couldn't remember what resource it was, I just knew I read it somewhere. I will check my planewalkers guide when I get the chance.

I also will have to look in spelljammer for any references to the Cerilian connection.

There are shells in the phlogiston that are out of the major flow areas that could well be beyond normal spelljammer technology to reach.

Later

:cool: ;)

I don't know if you will find any. Rich Baker III did the Rock of Bral expansion for SJ, but I think by the time BR got going SJ was in decline.