With a holding (0), am I a regent?

[mayiuchung]

According to the Rulebook(p32), "A 1st-level fighter with 7 hit points is raised to 17 hit points when he is designated as a regent.",

Again from the Rulebook(p.18), "Fighter regents automatically begin play with 4d6+10 elite bodyguard."

And according to the Book of Magecraft(p.18), "Once the wizard locates a source, he may use create holding domain action to established it as a holding(0).... If a wizard controls no holdings, he may use the create holding domain action even though he is not yet a regent....scions may performa create holding action to establish themselves as regents."

Does a holding (0) of any type grant any of benefit id est extra hit points, bodyguard, free domain action et cetera?

[irdeggman]

Yes it does.

Recognizing, of course that the character must be a scion in the first place - since only scions can have holdings in 2nd ed.

This distinguishes between a non-blooded elf and a scion wizard. Both can cast greater magic, but only the scion wizard can cast realm magic (i.e., controls a source).

Let me clarify this some.

Only a scion can control a source holding. So a scion fighter can not control a source holding - that is be a regent of such a holding.

This is the one that is restricted to certain classes. BoM gives examples of "controlling" a source but not really controlling it. Essentially only a blooded wizard can actually control a source holding - and only a blooded wizard can create said holding.

[Fizz]

Recognizing, of course that the character must be a scion in the first place - since only scions can have holdings in 2nd ed.


Because you mention it, does this mean that in 3E you don't have to be a scion to have holdings? I realize you still would need to be a scion to control a source though, but are other holdings open to non-scions? Does this mean they gain 0 regency? How would that work?

Clearly i need to brush up on the 3E domain rules.

I recall that Abominations mentions the Gorgon's priest, who apparently had holdings but `could not be blooded because the Gorgon would have consumed her long ago'.


-Fizz

[DanMcSorley]

On 1/22/07, Fizz <brnetboard@birthright.net> wrote:
> Because you mention it, does this mean that in 3E you don`t have to be a scion to have
> holdings? I realize you still would need to be a scion to control a source though, but are
> other holdings open to non-scions? Does this mean they gain 0 regency? How would
> that work?

In 2nd edition, create holding had no RP cost, just 1 GB. Ruling up a
holding cost 1 GB + target level RP (for holdings), or target level GB
+ RP (for provinces).

In the 3rd edition rules, this changed slightly. Create Holding is
unchanged, 1 GB. Ruling up a holding costs 1 GB or (target province
level) GBs, and has an escalating Rule check DC. DC 11 for level 1,
DC 12 for 2, and so on. You can spend RPs to bring the DC down, but
you are not required to.

So an unblooded person could theoretically rule a domain. He wouldn`t
get any RP income, just the GBs, and he`d be at a disadvantage because
he wouldn`t ever have RPs to spend, but he could do it.

Which is probably my favorite change in the 3e draft rules. Small,
but it opens up possibilities.

--
Daniel McSorley

[Sorontar]

I was wondering about temple holdings starting up. If a priest wanted to try and gain power and recognition in a province that is already full of temple holdings (particularly for the state religion), can he/she set up a holding(0)? I imagine this is a small set of secret worshippers who have their own private shrines and rarely (if ever) meet as a community. If so, does that mean that the priest is a regent? Or does the priest have to somehow go straight to holding (1) before they can be regarded a regent?

Sorontar

[irdeggman]

Because you mention it, does this mean that in 3E you don't have to be a scion to have holdings? I realize you still would need to be a scion to control a source though, but are other holdings open to non-scions? Does this mean they gain 0 regency? How would that work?

Clearly i need to brush up on the 3E domain rules.

I recall that Abominations mentions the Gorgon's priest, who apparently had holdings but `could not be blooded because the Gorgon would have consumed her long ago'.


-Fizz

yes you can.

But in order to gain any of the regent benefits (like bonus hit points) you need to have a level of scion class. And in order to take a level of scion class you have to be a scion.

Also as has been pointed out you can only gain GB but not RP unless you are blooded.

[irdeggman]

I was wondering about temple holdings starting up. If a priest wanted to try and gain power and recognition in a province that is already full of temple holdings (particularly for the state religion), can he/she set up a holding(0)? I imagine this is a small set of secret worshippers who have their own private shrines and rarely (if ever) meet as a community. If so, does that mean that the priest is a regent? Or does the priest have to somehow go straight to holding (1) before they can be regarded a regent?

Sorontar

In order to be a regent you only have to have a holding. It doesn't matter what level the holding is. Now in order to have any influence - you need to have a holding with greater than a 0-level. You can use that 0-level holding much like you could in 2nd ed as a base through which to poor RP in order to perform domain actions.

[mayiuchung]

Let me further my question at another level.

Does the above discussion conclude that a blooded character with a holding
(0) could gain the extra hit points (10) owing to the fact that he is a regent?

If so, this benefit is extremely good for any player characters ... no cost to maintain the domain, no responsibility to rule, nothing to lose ... only a net gain of 10 extra hit points. It seems to me it is a kind of "reign without rule" or a kind of King Errant mentioned in the Book of Regency(p.94-5).

M.A.

[manetherin]

In 2nd Ed, yes, hands down if you are blooded and have a province or holding of any kind or level, you get the extra HP

in the 3.5 revision, there's a bit more qualification necessary, breaks down like this if i remember correctly

1 - Unblooded character (Peons fresh off the farm, random guardsman, etc)

Can theoretically establish and run a domain, but odds are slim as there's not much chance of coming up with the cash required. Can (and almost guaranteed will) be completely crushed out of hand by the first blooded character who they come up against.

2 - Blooded character with Minor bloodline, or Major/Greater bloodline but no levels in Scion character class (The majority of the regents in BR)

Can establish and run a domain, but does not get bonus hit points. Note that Major/Greater bloodlines who don't have Scion class levels also miss out on most of the non-regency based benefits of their higher strength.

3 - Blooded character with Major/Greater/True bloodline and levels in Scion class (Major NPCs, all regent Awnies, any PC the GM allows to start with or earn)

Can establish and run a domain, gets bonus HP and other benefits (see the Scion class table specific to the character's bloodline derivation)

[irdeggman]

manetherin got it right.

Something that also happened with the BRCS (make sure to get the sanctioned chapters 1 and 2) is the scaling of the bonus hit points.


Bonus Hit Points: A scion receives bonus hit points each season based on the amount of RP he receives up to a maximum of one-half his blood score, rounded down – minimum of one.




The fact of the sudden +10 hit points with a 0 level holding had a lot to do with this mechanic. It also rewards those who maintain a high level of domain strenght and bloodline score.

[Nicholas Harrison]

The Hand of Azrai is an interesting case.

I have always toyed with the idea of making her a fiend (perhads an erinye). And, I think the BRCS went with a similar idea.

Due to its unique nature, I can imagine an angel or a fiend accumulating regency without having a bloodline. But, that's probably off-topic . . . .

[AndrewTall]

The Gorgon has a number of blooded henchmen, so I don't see the problem with the Hand being blooded.

If you don't like the idea of him valuing a good servant more than a source of blood strength, consider the long term possibilities of breeding - a bloodline may only kick in at adolescence but given the Gorgon's life-span it makes sense to let other blooded regents serve him - those with strong blood-lines will gravitate to positions of power naturally - all of which are within arm's reach for when they inevitably fail or outgrow their usefulness.

[Fizz]

The Gorgon has a number of blooded henchmen, so I don't see the problem with the Hand being blooded.

No, it's not a problem per se. It's just that Abominations specifically mentions that she is not blooded. Which in turn raised the question, even in 2nd Ed, of whether non-blooded characters could be regents of a sort.

-Fizz

[AndrewTall]

Noted and agreed.

I had the view from the text that she was non-blooded because a blooded regent would have been consumed by the Gorgon, there is similar text regarding the Swordhawk in Realms of the Great Bay. In my view it restricted the possibilities with using the Gorgon - if PC's meet him then one way or the other its pretty much game over, if he has a range of lieutenants you get all the awnshegh goodness without ending the game if one drops.

Since unblooded rulers exist in all other D&D games, and in history, I would say that the unblooded should certainly be able to be regents, just not very good ones - one reason why I prefer BRCS to the original. In some house rules I gave a bonus to maximum RP collected equal to the charisma modifier and a maximum hoard of RP at the end of a turn equal to triple the charisma modifier. Scions were still far superior, but in very small realms the unblooded could hold their own - as long as they acted cautiously.

[mayiuchung]

Let me ask another question about a (0) holding at another level.

For holding a campaign, will you consider creating (0) holding for the following purposes?

(a) A regent wants his heir to learn to be a ruler, so he created a (0) holding within his own land for him.

(b) A regent promotes a lieutenant to be a vassal with a (0) holding.

(c) A regent grants a (0) holding to a PC as an reward, and making the PC a vassal of the regent at the same time.

M.A.

[irdeggman]

(a) A regent wants his heir to learn to be a ruler, so he created a (0) holding within his own land for him.

It is a holding.


(b) A regent promotes a lieutenant to be a vassal with a (0) holding.

It is a holding


(c) A regent grants a (0) holding to a PC as an reward, and making the PC a vassal of the regent at the same time.

It is a holding.

I don't know what you are trying to ask here?

A 0-level holding is a holding for all intensive purposes. In 2nd ed rules any regent (must be blooded) who had a holidng (of any level) got the regent benefits - +10 hit points and ability to perform domain actions.

[AndrewTall]

I would agree that all of the examples are holdings - to be created using a 'create holding' action however not simply a decree even though the 'real' regent is just hiving off a fragment of his domain.

I would note that history is full of 'loyal' sons and lieutenants who were granted a 'minor holding' and grew it to take over the 'parent holding' at a time and manner of their choosing - not that of the parent.

Since a 0-level holding generates no GB or RP the regent of it will gain no hp under BRCS - so aside from some potential and local kudos it should have little effect (like being granted a minor title).

I would consider granting a 0-level holding for all of mayiuchung's reasons, and add:

To permit an ally to support my actions more readily (i.e. a province owner who controls all the law granting the temple regent a 0-level holding so that the priesthood can help him influence law related matters with RP and / or GB).

To recognise deserving actions by granting a minor title that lets them stand above the crowd.

To advertise potential enemies to the world at large - a 0-level holding is a potential rival to the existing powers to be courted or crushed and a wise regent will often leave the destruction of their enemies to others.