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dalor
11-29-2006, 05:53 AM
I am curious if anyone else has given thought as to
why there have been no true kingdoms in Cerilia since
the disintegration of the Anuirean Empire?

I mean, you have lots of Principalities, Barons,
Counts, Dukes and even so-called Kings...what I would
call upstarts really with no real Kingdom.

I know this is a fantasy world, but has no figure come
forth in hundreds of years to found a true kingdom?

Share your thoughts and give me the history I may not
know!


Anthony Edwards



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irdeggman
11-29-2006, 10:28 AM
In Anuire it has to do with the Iron Throne and the lack of an emporer.

Pretty much there is a positioning of power with no single regent having sufficient influence to do it on his own.

In the Khinasi lands I think it more the the lands function as City States, again no one wanting to give up their influence to support an over-ruler.

In Brechtur, well I think the over regent is more of a figure head anyway. The tru poweer there is the guilders working behind the scenes.

The other lands just don't have the focus on a typical "kingdoms" and feudal monarachy style governments.

Also remember that Anuire had "conquered" most of the other human lands, (except for Rjurik and Vosgaard) so there is an inherent distrust of someone from the "outside" coming in and taking over.

Bri
11-29-2006, 06:38 PM
Since no body has come forth in hundreds of years it gives the DM and the PC's a chance for character development. If you're a DM, perhaps this could be your new NPC. If you're a PC, why not write a little backstory to give your character an edge. Write your own history a little bit, it'll give you B.R campaign a nice little twist. Either way, you'll have the upper hand. That said however, if you write a new emperor for the Iron Throne, be prepared for the enemies to the throne and the assassins to come out of every nook and cranny.

ploesch
11-29-2006, 08:27 PM
Anuire is the Only place I see a new Emperor coming from. It wouldn't be likely that Anuireans would accept an outsider as the New Emperor, even if someone from another land had the ability and desire to do so.

Looking at the political situation in Anuire, only someone who is a powerful regent would be able to ascend to the Iron Throne,a nd even then they would need to do so over the bodies of many of their subjects.

Lets go beyond the Might to rule aspect some though. In BirthRight it isn't enough to just have the Desire to be emperor and the Might to back it up. Remember, your power to rule comes from the land itself, so if the land decided you were unfit to be the new emperor no matter how you tried, you would find your empire fall apart around you. You need to have the Right to rule also.

I'm sure that since the last Emperor went off to challenge the Gorgon there have been many pretenders to the iron throne, and there still are. However, without the Right to rule, they have all failed. Perhaps that is the real reason for the Decline of the kingdom of Diemed, perhaps they reached too high above their station.

Of course, you have to decide how it works on the flavor of your game. I like to have powers beyond the PC's control looking in on their destiny. They will get a sign that it is time to ascend to the Iron Throne when I think they've proven themselves worthy. Until then, they are free to rule how they like, but attempts at seizing control of the Iron Throne always end poorly unless they have been given the nod.

kgauck
11-29-2006, 10:34 PM
The short answer is that no one has a bloodline strong enough to collect all the regency neccesary to manage a kingdom. If such a dynasty existed, and they weren't nearly immortal and gradually turning to stone, they probabaly would have forged a kingdom by now.

Just like historical Europe, there are three levels of nobility, Emperor or the king of high king level dalor is talking about; the overlord level of dukes and barons, and the single province level of counts (jarls, graffen, &c).

Currently, there are plenty of dynasties that produce characters with a blood score sufficient to manage realms the size of duchies. This means that altering the political system to put the focus elsewhere (either at single province or at the high-king/Emperor level) would face constant challenges from this group of dukes and barons who have a very effecient RP collection compared to their blood score.

To put it another way, mystical, political, and administrative forces are ideally suited to a realm the size of duchies and baronies. If its harder to sustain a realm that is much bigger or much smaller, such realms will be both rare and based on exceptional circumstances.

Keep in mind that when discussing such realms, we not only refer to the political lands, but to any realm. The same forces prevent the formation of a Grossbrechtmonopolie as do any political empires. Again, the same forces work against a United Solar Temple of Avani.

Looking at both these circumstances based on game mechanics and on the path of history, any great-king would be mostly nominal until technological, administrative, and economic conditions were altered, and the bloodline of the great-king grew.

For single province realms to be viable, they need to have a realtivly high level, say 6, and for the ruler to be able to combine the province and law with another type of holding. Endier has guilds, Ilien has magic, and three province Medoere has temples.

If I were to speculate whether, given the current conditions, rulers would tend to expand extensivly (adding new provinces) or intensivly (unifying all the holdings in existing provinces) I suspect that intensification would be easier and more productive.

Lord Rahvin
11-29-2006, 10:46 PM
Also, strictly from a player`s view, having only 3 realm actions per turn
makes it hard to manage/expand/protect more than a few provinces at a time.
Even 7 province Rhoesone became too much for one of my players (of course he
was on a quest for world domination, ironically) and so he vassalled off the
top 3 provinces in hopes that his ally`s 3 domain actions would be used to
hold Ghoere at bay allowing my player to use up all of his 3 actions
invading to the east and south.

AndrewTall
11-29-2006, 11:13 PM
Another possibility is that there have been Kingdoms of one sort or another but they haven't lasted. As regency is capped by bloodline the mechanics make it necessary for a powerful king/queen to have vassals who rule beneath him/her (in addition to the strong historical and social needs).

The ideal subdivision of land is one based on natural borders to reduce infractions to those caused by deliberate action. I.e. Boruine will not 'mistake' half of Lindeholme for Fhoruile because there is a major river in the way to make the aggression obvious. In Anuire if you look at the west coast, south coast (barring Diemed: Medeore), Heartlands (barring Ghoere to the south and east) northern marches and eastern marches all borders are natural - mountains, deep forests and wide rivers.

As a result if a kingdom in Anuire fell apart it would likely divide along realms similar to the current layout (barring a generation or so shakedown period when realms subdivided and reconsolidated) due to the ease of defining and defending the borders i question. Since a good route to power is to be the 'heir of the true king' (all memories of heavy taxes and torture dismissed as the lies of a corrupt and distant overlord) the names of the realms might well even remain (particularly if the new lord marries into the old family to gain legitimacy).

It's quite possible that 'kings' have arisen and passed without being mentioned, or have been quietly air-brushed from history.

In other realms I would say that:
The Brecht will know the benefits of unification from the empire (low tariffs, consistent law, etc) but particularly given the abject failure of the Brecht league are probably wary of ideas of super-states seeing them as innately aggressive. The Brecht are also geographically very hard to unify due to the way they are spread out along the shores of the great bay - it's much harder to control an empire across seas than across land.

The Rjurik have both too sparse a population to benefit properly from large kingdoms and also two dominating religions that very much prefer small little realms, the druids are many things but given to promoting large civilisations is not one of them.

The Vos barely maintain realms as it is, and again their dominant religions would oppose unification and the necessary suppression of conflict between the tribes

The Khinasi are more likely to have kingdoms, but are hampered by the sheer number of awnsheghlien. They also, as mentioned by irdeggman, look to the control of cities not land - a king of a hundred leagues of desert is king of nothing but dust. Again however it is possible that several realms were joined at some point but fragmented after the death of the great general / charismatic negotiator

It is also possible that most of the countries in Cerilla don't really see themselves as a single people - the Anuireans were a single unified country for a millennia and another empire would simply 'restore the peace and prosperity lost in chaos', for other countries an empire would be something very new (the Anuirean empire which was external aside) with very different cultures being forced to consider themselves one. The nomads of Binsada are unlikely to think much of the decadent city folk elsewhere in Khinasi and vice versa.

Thomas_Percy
11-30-2006, 11:11 AM
In our Birthright is year 1577 (1524 was a starting year), and there are kingdoms of Anuire and Rjurik.
It all happened because of generations of my players actions,
but imho starting divided Anuire setting gave more opportunities to player than ours.

The Swordgaunt
11-30-2006, 12:23 PM
Talinie might be mentioned, as it is ruled by a thane, and was founded after the collapse of the empire.

On the reason for the myriad of sovereign fiefdoms, I see this as having two reasons.

One, like the remnants of the Holy Roman Empire, it simply lacked a person, House or system strong enough to unite the land.

Two, as others have stated before, it makes for a more interesting game.

celtibear
11-30-2006, 01:11 PM
I am curious if anyone else has given thought as to
why there have been no true kingdoms in Cerilia since
the disintegration of the Anuirean Empire?

I mean, you have lots of Principalities, Barons,
Counts, Dukes and even so-called Kings...what I would
call upstarts really with no real Kingdom.

I know this is a fantasy world, but has no figure come
forth in hundreds of years to found a true kingdom?

Share your thoughts and give me the history I may not
know!


Anthony Edwards

All depends on how one runs the game. In my game, as in "real" history, if you're a suddenly leigeless Duke with no one above you and no one opposing you that you can't overcome, you declare yourself King. Thus, in my game, the Kingdom of Diemed has a rivalry with the Kingdom of Medoere (technically a Theocracy, but titularly a Kingdom), etc. The rulers of provinces are generally Dukes or Princes, of and devolving down through earls, counts, barons, knights, et al.

Of course, I've also made an attempt to make the heraldry of the setting more realistic (how does one blazon brown, versus tan?).

Don't get me wrong, I like the setting, I just have a problem with the "Baron of a Huge Land That We Haven't the Balls to Call Our Kingdom, 'Cause Where Would the Fun of That Be?" syndrome. Your in chargeof the land, after all. Order new letterhead and move on.

Sorontar
11-30-2006, 11:19 PM
I agree with what Celtibear says. Think about for a moment. What defines something as a kingdom? The main features in human history seem to be:
1) a lifelong supreme ruler/rulers who controlled the finances, government and military of an area
2) a way to decide their successor on their death, which was commonly heriditary

The type of "exceptions" to this were things like the Althing in Iceland etc deciding the next "king" and the Irish High King (Tanist) who was IIRC selected from a group of regional kings. But the key thing to remember is that in "present day" Anuire, the Regent of each major area is effectively a ruling a kingdom.

What is throwing people is the disjointed use of titles like Duke and Baroness in Anuire. What you have to remember is that these are just English "translations" not English "equivalents". The Anuirean concept of a baroness is very different to the human history equivalent. For a start, it was originally given a much higher position on the Order of Precedance than any human history baroness that I can remember. Also, as has been pointed out, post-Empire the titles have just become like labels within each area. Baroness Roseone might as well call herself the Grand Poobah. Everyone would treat her the same regardless of what hat she wears. The word "baroness" no longer has a certain level of rank that can be differentiated from Duke Boeruine. They are both the monarch of a kingdom. This would not change unless they both swore allegiance to a higher ruler, who might decide to call itself Emperor or The One who Smites.

Sorontar.

irdeggman
12-01-2006, 12:17 AM
IMO the varied use of "titles" in Anuire is mostly die to the political climate.

Avan calls himself a "prince" and yet the Roeles did not claim such a "monarchy".

The various titles used are more about posturing and setting up future "claims" for the Iron Throne.

That is the "only" title in Anuire that is constant. The one who successfully claims the Iron Throne successfully claims the title and authority of Emporer.

So basically don't worry about whether or not someone declares a "kingdom" in Anuire. It will carry no additional weight than a barony or duchy - only the person sitting on the Iron Throne will be "recognized" as the ruler of Anuire.

dalor
12-01-2006, 01:38 AM
Great stuff so far...

I had given some thought to the various realm-states
(a term I use for the nations of Cerilia because they
are very nearly like city-states...but not) and
thought that in the history of Anuire, at least, only
Ghoere and to a lesser extent Roesone had really
emerged as new nations independent of rebellion. I
may be wrong; but I thought for sure that the lands of
Roesone were carved forcfully from other countries;
while I was unsure of Ghoere but knew it was not one
of the original Duchies.

I always liked Gavin of Ghoere; but I am a little
unclear of the history of Ghoere. My Birthright books
are unfortunately packed away in storage in Virginia
while I now live here in Washington State; so I was
wondering if someone wouldn`t mind giving me a run
down on exactly how Ghoere came to be and on what
realms was it built upon?

I actually have a son named Gavin by the way...not
named after the Gavin in topic; but it is a topic of
some debate with my wife: "Did you name our son after
some fantasy D&D character!?"

She is a recent convert to playing D&D and caught his
name as the ruler of Ghoere on my computer game of the
Gorgon`s Alliance.

Speaking of that game, it does give a really good feel
for why it is hard to maintain a growing kingdom when
you only have the three domain turns! The patch that
allows taking on Vassals and actually controlling them
is the only way the game really becomes "realistic"
because otherwise your kingdom becomes much to
unwieldy and it is very hard to keep track of
everything that needs to be done. Before the patch I
found that certain parts of the "Heart of the Kingdom"
simply were becoming totally neglected by me because I
was always on the frontier waging war to expand my
kingdom. Why the guilds and temples of the areas were
in decent steading to start with, I could never afford
the regency to increase either them or the more
important Law holdings to have an organized Heart for
the kingdom; instead being forced to contest with the
former rulers of my conquered provinces to establish
law there to tax the provinces I had gained to make
them somewhat less of a financial burden. The only
way to solve the problem was to totally obliterate a
neighboring kingdom making the holdings become null
and void and then establish my own...but again this
took a great deal of time!

So the feudal aspect of the campaign setting...indeed
the VITAL and REQUIRED need of vassals to help run the
kingdom...come quickly to the fore.

No matter what anyone says, I`ve yet to encounter a
setting that allows you to both have fun as an
adventurer and still delve into Realm Conquest and
Kingdom building.

If anyone would like to compare experiences as regents
of their favorite BR country I would really enjoy
hearing it...could also add some depth to the
discussion on why Kingdoms are hard to found in BR!

Myself, my greatest experience was as a Paladin of
Haelyn and monarch of the Theocracy of Talinie! I
quickly decided that Goblins were NO good as neighbors
and that all of Thurazor needed to be reclaimed
immediately.

My initial plans were a steady increase in my military
and the establishment of a Knightly Order. The sheer
income that Talinie generates is much more than I
could have hoped for! With taxes I was little
impressed, but the temple holdings were staggering in
the gold that was generated. Even with ol` Redbeard
to the south as my liege, I was able to stave off any
political advances by him simply by paying him off
with a small sum of GB each tax-time and supplementing
that with a small army for his use! He used them
constantly though (the DM was trying to drain me all
he could of money) and I had to replace units quite
often (then he had an incident that caused my people
to become upset that so many were being sent to
foreign wars...so I just started hiring mercenaries
which cost even MORE money).

Anyway, I moved my "military capital" to my 5/2
province while leaving daily government in Icehaven as
well as the religious govt (the two are pretty much
the same in Talinie!). I built a fortress and founded
my Knightly Order...then sent an envoy to the "King"
of Thurazor informing them that they had one year to
remove any person in Thurazor who was not willing to
swear fealty to my monarch. Needless to say it didn`t
work out so well for me (never thought it would
really) and my ambassador was dressed funny and sent
home.

I invaded immediately because of the lack of respect
shown myself and my envoy (my entire plan was to force
this pretense...which the DM fell for!). My military
was easily able to crush the goblins, even when the
guilds at home started giving me trouble and Rjurik
"raiders" hit my coast (they were mercs in the employ
of the guilders). I responeded at home rather heavy
handed and absolutely crushed the guilds...militarily
when opposed. Caused lots of trouble, but the DM got
to take more money from me as I opened the church`s
coffers to feed/employ those now without work (I took
the old approach of using the unemployed on state
building projects...and then began awarding free
farmland in provinces formerly belonging to goblins
since they rarely farmed the land at any rate!). I
took care of the "Raiders" by spending even more money
and hiring myself a mercenary navy...which was
promptly crushed by my Leige Lord for piracy and
brigandry when they put into his "safe" port.

So..."Not the behaviour of any Paladin I know" may be
running through your head right now...but I never did
anything evil or even lied: i`m of the firm opinion
that there would not still be Paladins if they were
all idiots that couldn`t adjust to social situations.
Although the next thing I did nearly lost me my
Paladinhood!

In my near total conquest of Thurazor (there was still
some resistance here and there) I gave any goblins who
didn`t get away a simple choice: "Convert to the
worship of Haelyn...or undergo religious retraining.
Those that fail "retraining" will be rewarded with
swift journeys to their maker!" Sort of a religious
inquisition if you will. Didn`t go over very well
with the DM...but I pointed out in my defense that the
Church of Talinie was VERY strict regarding its
adherents, and there were no other religions even
allowed! What was a good monarch to do? :-)

In the end there was a compromise: the goblins were
allowed to leave lands now held by Talinie for the
Five Peaks...and that came back to bite me in the
butt.

Realizing at last that the coffers of Talinie were too
much for neighboring realmst to withsand, he massed a
horde out of the Five Peaks and sent them against
me...

Unfortunately that is where my reign ended as he
suddenly realized that Aeric Boeruine and I were going
to mop the floor with the Five Peaks and my liege and
I were about to again expand our holdings...so he
asked me to help run the game and so I did. :-( We
had about 8 people all running different nations and
it was getting to be too much for one person to
handle!

Soooo...anyone else care to share a story of their
favorite kingdom?


Anthony Edwards



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The Swordgaunt
12-01-2006, 11:48 AM
>snip<

A fine post and a good read. I hope there will be more posts in the "Tales from the Throne"-category.

BTW:


[...] my entire plan was to force this pretense...which the DM fell for! [...]


As a DM, I really enjoy when players metagame their intrigues. It keeps me on my toes, and, IMO, it makes the game more fun.

irdeggman
12-01-2006, 12:55 PM
Great stuff so far...

I had given some thought to the various realm-states
(a term I use for the nations of Cerilia because they
are very nearly like city-states...but not) and
thought that in the history of Anuire, at least, only
Ghoere and to a lesser extent Roesone had really
emerged as new nations independent of rebellion. I
may be wrong; but I thought for sure that the lands of
Roesone were carved forcfully from other countries;
while I was unsure of Ghoere but knew it was not one
of the original Duchies.


Moedore was founded via military force (Rournil actually stepped in to defeat the forces of Diemed).

Endier was carved from the Spiderfell and likewise had to succeed from Diemed.

Those two come to my imediate recall.

Attached is the timeline from Rich's Secret Files.
It helps put things into "historical" perspective.

dalor
12-01-2006, 04:23 PM
Attached where? I didn`t get an attachment in the
email I received.


Anthony Edwards

--- irdeggman <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:
>
>
>
> Moedore was founded via military force (Rournil
> actually stepped in to defeat the forces of Diemed).
>
> Endier was carved from the Spiderfell and likewise
> had to succeed from Diemed.
>
> Those two come to my imediate recall.
>
> Attached is the timeline from Rich`s Secret Files.
> It helps put things into "historical" perspective.




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Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
http://new.mail.yahoo.com

irdeggman
12-01-2006, 05:45 PM
Attached where? I didn`t get an attachment in the
email I received.



Attachments must be gotten through the web site and not via e-mail.

BR.net merges both the mail serve and the web site but this also means that not everything goes.

IIRC you can't send attachments via the mail serve at all.

The web site allows you to upload and download things (like the BRCS and various chapters for instance).

AndrewTall
12-01-2006, 07:53 PM
Dalor> I always liked Gavin of Ghoere; but I am a little unclear of the history of Ghoere. My Birthright books are unfortunately packed away in storage in Virginia while I now live here in Washington State; so I was wondering if someone wouldn`t mind giving me a run down on exactly how Ghoere came to be and on what realms was it built upon?

Andrew> For the domain secrets of Ghoere try: http://www.bloodsilver.com/

palious
02-03-2007, 10:46 AM
A very good reason for no uber power in anuire is very simple. There is a stalemate. In the games I've been in, the three main "superpowers" (not including the Gorgon of course) Avan, Boueruine, and Ghoere don't want to make moves against the other, because even if victorious, it would leave them weakened to the third. Thus a balance of power is maintained. Also, this is a situation the Chamberlain has found useful and so uses his not insignificant resources to maintain. Therefore, a new emperor would face opposition from the big three, or from the Chamberlain, or from all.

kgauck
02-03-2007, 08:27 PM
Here is another way that you can end up without a single dominant power. The connection between a bloodline and the land is never totally severed. Dynasties who hold a given parcel of land for a long time develope a connection to the land that allows them to create an "ancestoral rebellion" where the land would revert to the bloodline who held the land for a long time. So that even if Boeruine conquered Avanil, unless he killed off all the Avans (including decendents in other houses who married out), someone would be able to come along later and re-claim Avanil.

As such, conquests tend to be short term, and look more like the English domination of Scotland between Edward I and Edward III, than a clean conquest where succesful investiture ends the old dynasty's connection to the land.

There are several items in the established histories of various realms that support this kind of thing. First is the Moergan struggle in Osoerde. William Moergan needs to be able to defend a province before he can cause it to rebel and join him, because otherwise Duke Jaison will just occupy it and take it back. So he works to weaken the Duke so that when he starts to foster rebellion, the Duke cannot just reconquer his province.

Another would be the way the House of Cariele was nearly exterminated, so that no one would live to reclaim the County (or Barony). The survival of a scion, who now rules Coeranys would always be a source of concern for the current rulers of Cariele.

I believe Kiergard also includes a story about how the former ruling house was elminated.

Generally I would limit this ability to ancient houses, and so someone like the current rulers of Cariele or Osoerde could not use it in reply. They are too new.

This brings up interesting situations for Diemed and her break-away provinces. Medoere is a pretty integrated country, with province, law, temple, and source holdings working closely together. Getting the land back won't do much if every holding is applied to taking it back. Just like William Moergan, the Baron (or Duke) of Diemed would need to at least get enough holdings that he could hold the province. Another thing that could be going on there is that the new rulers have ancestoral powers in a single province, having been the local counts for a long time. So that Ilien, Fairfield, and the capital of Medoere are also ancestoral to the current ruling houses, and would be impossible for Diemed to take in that fashion. Combined with the more traditional alliance of the three new powers, Diemed is still hard pressed to recover his lost provinces, but it does allow for it to happen without swallowing a number of provinces larger than what remains in Diemed.

vota dc
02-04-2007, 02:55 PM
A very good reason for no uber power in anuire is very simple. There is a stalemate. In the games I've been in, the three main "superpowers" (not including the Gorgon of course) Avan, Boueruine, and Ghoere don't want to make moves against the other, because even if victorious, it would leave them weakened to the third. Thus a balance of power is maintained. Also, this is a situation the Chamberlain has found useful and so uses his not insignificant resources to maintain. Therefore, a new emperor would face opposition from the big three, or from the Chamberlain, or from all.

For Avanil and Boeruine is true,but Ghoere is far from the other superpowers.
But Mhoried is a superpower or not?

dalor
02-04-2007, 05:31 PM
I disagree...Ghoere IS one of the most powerful
nations in Anuire. I don`t agree with its political
situation though (as written by the original work).
The only nation that could stand against Ghoere that
shares a border is Mhoried...and their military is
busy watching the Gorgon and his puppets, as well as
the Five Peaks. Elenie has a similar problem to a
lesser degree, as well as not actually having a strong
military. Oesorde is in civil war. Alamie is weak
and its ruler deluded into thinking he can swiftly
take over lands long lost to his family.
Endier...well, no threat. Leaving only Roesone, which
also has a small military that doesn`t even closely
compare to the military of Ghoere.

The only true threat to Ghoere comes from the
Spiderfell, and well...a line of catapults with
flaming pitch shot would fix that in my
opinion...swarms of spiders or not.

Ghoere is easily one of the most organized and
powerful nations in Anuire...ready to soon overpower
neighbors.

Yes, Ghoere is a "super" power if you will...


Anthony Edwards

--- vota dc <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:
>
>
> For Avanil and Boeruine is true,but Ghoere is far
> from the other superpowers.
> But Mhoried is a superpower or not?



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kgauck
02-04-2007, 08:13 PM
A power is any entity capable if excercising sustained force outside its own community. The term great power came along later to reflect any power capable of excercising force across the globe. The presence of great powers created a term for regional powers, who could excercsise power more broadly than many states, but whose reach was limited to a part of the globe. Super power is a term created to decribe the perponderance of power held by the United States and the Soviet Union compared to established great powers, like France and Great Britain who still had the capacity to project force globally. Since none of the entities in the game (other than a party of adventurers) had the ability to project power across Cerilia, let alone the globe, terms like super power are mis-placed in Anuire.

Generally, using the vocabulary of power projection, kingdoms like Beoruine, Avanil, and Ghoere are powers, because they can project power. Most other states can only annoy their neighbors.

Whether Osoerde is a power is an interesting question, and would rely to a significant degree on how the DM wants to play it. Classically, Duke Jaison could use a foriegn war to strengthen his position domestically as the people rally around the throne, but he would in effect be gambling his whole throne on the war, since a successful war would solidify his position, while a losing war would almost certainly result in a Moergan restoration.

kgauck
02-04-2007, 08:20 PM
I don`t agree with [Ghoere's] political situation though (as written by the original work). The only nation that could stand against Ghoere that shares a border is Mhoried...and their military is busy watching the Gorgon and his puppets, as well as the Five Peaks.

Some points of agreement to establish common assumptions, and then some questions.

Mhoried is very busy watching the Gorgon and would have difficulty taking any fight to another enemy.

What about Ghoere's political situation seems out of sorts? Are we mostly talking internal, extrernal, or both?

AndrewTall
02-04-2007, 08:57 PM
Ghoere may have a significant power-base, but he is surrounded by enemies - every single border is hostile or at best wary.

In the Falcon and The Wolf it describes how Ghoere conquered Elenie and half of Mhoried before being defeated - and that is recent memory, neither nation is going to stand by while Ghoere starts munching on neighbours knowing that they would be next on the menu.

Roesone is only a new realm, formerly attacking it would have been attacking Diemed or Aerenwe direclty - both at the time very strong realms. I would note that Ilien and Medeore have some sort of alliance against Diemed which may also act against Ghoere. If Aerenwe got involved, Ghoere would swiftly find himself out of his depth. Diemed is unlikely to aid Roesone directly but the Duke sees Roesone as his ancestral lands and would far rather see them in the hands of a 'weak rebel' than in Tael's...

The Spiderfell is a hazard, but is mostly passive. Its not going to raid out in force unless someone stupidly raids in first.

Endier is a lot stronger than it looks - Kalien has vast trade income, an equally large spy network, and can very easily support a dozen plus units despite having only one province. Add the likely support of Avanil and Tuornen and a long term conquest would be very difficult to sustain, in fact Guilder Kalien might wind up taking Tireste under his protection...

Alamie shares a small border, and is focused on Turonen, but again is probably being underestimated. I always saw the Alamie:Tuornen conflict as a family affair - deadly serious differences which vanish into unity the moment a 3rd party intervenes absent.

Osoerde is currently a quagmire with guerrilla warfare rampant. The phrase poisoned chalice leaps to mind. Osoerde would be unlikely to directly help others if attacked, but would happily take advantage of weakness to snip of Achiese if Ghoere got bogged down in a northern conquest. And as KGauck says an external war is always a good way to solve internal differences - all those hot blooded young boys finding somewhere else to get rambunctious.

dalor
02-05-2007, 04:19 AM
The original work and the opinion of others suggest
that Ghoere can`t focus on one enemy because it is
surrounded by nations that would join together against
it...I don`t see that situation.

I see Ghoere able to quickly/easily crush the strength
of its neighbors. While I don`t think Ghoere could
simply run over anyone in truth...it could easily
crush the military of any one or two neighbors...only
internal turmoil would prevent it.

My problem with the situation of Ghoere is that the
Baron should have been able to take territory from one
or more neighbors without breaking much of a sweat.

Anthony Edwards

--- kgauck <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:
> ------------ QUOTE ----------
> I don`t agree with [Ghoere`s] political situation
> though (as written by the original work). The only
> nation that could stand against Ghoere that shares a
> border is Mhoried...and their military is busy
> watching the Gorgon and his puppets, as well as the
> Five Peaks.
> -----------------------------
>
>
>
> Some points of agreement to establish common
> assumptions, and then some questions.
>
> Mhoried is very busy watching the Gorgon and would
> have difficulty taking any fight to another enemy.
>
> What about Ghoere`s political situation seems out of
> sorts? Are we mostly talking internal, extrernal,
> or both?



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kgauck
02-05-2007, 05:12 PM
Ghoere is in the "central position" and so is surrounded by powers who are already wary of Ghoere as a threat. Central position is the hardest spot for an agressive power, because any move activates the hostile coallition.

To successfuly manage the central position, you need a Bismark to diplomatically seperate the powers from each other so that you can deal with each in turn. However, note that Bismark's Germany was mostly seeking unification, not the aquisition of foriegn territory.

Schleswig was already part of the German Confederation and had long been part of the Reich. The fact that the King of Denmark was also the Duke of Schleswig made the question of whether Schleswig was really German or Danish an open one. Taking advantage of such ambiguities is key for a power like Ghoere.

Bismark's war against Austria was merely to demonstrate that Prussia was the natural leader of Germany because of her modern, effecient army. Defeated Austria was given no indemnity and suffered no territorial losses. Ghoere may settle disagreements with other powers in battle, but she will have to avoid taking lands or indemnities if she hopes to avoid activating a hostile coallition. Speaking of hostile coalitions, keep in mind as well that it was Austria who had the coallition against her, because she held power in both Germany and Italy, and faced a two front war.

Bismark's final war was conducted while France was diplomatically isolated and Prussia was friendly with Russia, Austria, and Sardinia (proto-Italy). While an indeminity was demanded and a border province (tiny in proportion to the size of either France or Germany) exchanged, it forced Bismark to adopted a very non-agressive policy, claiming to be a sated power. Not only did Bismark have to adopt a non-aggresive policy, but he had to work harder to get assurances from other powers in the forms of alliances. Finally, Bismark had to oppose any colonial policy as it would seriously complicate relations with other colonial powers, and the defense of any such colonies would require a navy, and so antagonize Britain.

Bismark is one of the best examples of a person who could guide a central power aggressively. He was a powerful diplomat and was able to isolate his enemies. None of this is part of Ghoere's description. I think this is because, by unifying the two earlier duchies, and perhaps rounding out his territory, Ghoere has basically put himself in the position of Bismark after the war with France. He's a demonstratedly aggressive power and everyone is ready to join against him.

There are still two tricks to consider:

Strike while parts of the hostile coallition against you are distracted by a crisis elsewhere. Almost certainly this means action while Boeruine is moving. If Avanil has to respond to both, he'll almost certainly put most of his eggs against Boeruine. If he doesn't, either because Boeruine cuts a deal, or Avanil had an ace up his sleeve, Ghoere is busted. Generally, this is a good one.

Use puppets to get what you want. You don't actually get anything this way, but either (a) your friends do or (b) at least you denied some resources to your enemies.

The problem I see most, based again on the existing description, is that Ghoere has no friends. Until he does, he's got to sit on his hands.

Consider that every realm and domain has a PC ruler who has read the description and considers Ghoere a threat. If you were Ghoere, you'd have to change the enviroment of hostility before you act act aggressively again.

kgauck
02-06-2007, 12:14 AM
One assumption that needs to be out in the open regarding war is, how often are realms at war. If they are at war all the time (as the published materials suggest, at least in Anuire) then things are quite different than if war is a rare, catastrophic event.

If wars are common, then distractions must abound and Ghoere should have plenty of opportunities to make mischief. If peace is normal and war is exceptional, then Ghoere is waiting.