Player rewards in RPG

[Birthright-L]

> How does one structure a game that pleases the players without the old
> familiar leveling up as a neccesary reward?



By offering other rewards. Players like rewards that are based on
rules, like experience points, levels, and challenge ratings. Everything
else feels too much like GM`s fiat. Also players like options... the act of
choosing and getting a meaningful result based (only) on their own choices.
Feats, classes, skill points, etc. provide for this.

However, just because it`s the only reward system used in D&D doesn`t mean
it`s the only reward system possible. For a d20 superhero game, one player
suggested, for example, that instead of experience points I hand out skill
points. This actually worked rather well for my game.

Another game I`ve seen allows elves to use a Grief score. It`s a cool stat
that helps a lot of stuff, including magic, but each use potentially raises
the Grief. This is a really good thing until you reach 10 at which point
the character is effectively an NPC. Laments allowed you to put off Grief
increases. Nice touch.

The point is that players like rewards based on rules, like d20, but the
rules that d20 use for rewards are not the only ones possible. Far from
it. The study of reward systems in role playing games fascinate me.

[RaspK_FOG]

Actually, the d20 System does not point out any specific award as necessary or better than any other; in fact, the System itself provides no grounds for any kind of award!

What people fail to realise is that the fact that the d20 System was built in order to create the new edition of D&D has nothing to do with the ability of the system to achieve one thing or another; most particularly, the very foundation of the system are these 3 principles: the 6 ability scores we all know, rolling a d20 for all resolution rolls and having the result of the roll modified by a number of integers, and that rolling higher is better.These have been pointed out in an article on the Dragon magazine, actually, by one of the system's very authors.

Now, one can grant any sort of award in d20; you just have to implement a rule for it, that's all.

[epicsoul]

As stated in the other thread, BR is excellently positioned to take advantage of alternate rewards:

- bonuses added towards rule checks, or agitate checks, or domain attitude, when needed. Even bonus RP for adventures, to increase bloodline, as the character is now more (in)famous and heroic (villainous). Those rewards are already there, other than the treasure and the xp.

Not to mention the possibility of bloodtheft... the garnering of an advantageous marriage to produce an heir, gaining an alliance, or the favour of a realm spell casting wizard/priest.

Skill points can be useful - I allow some training for skill points on occasion, and also training for hp, like old BR used to (although I also bring in lots of critters that permanently drain HP as well, so it balances out).

[cutenfluffy]

> How does one structure a game that pleases the players without the old familiar leveling up as a neccesary reward?

Play GURPS.

The only reason to play D&D is so you can level up etc. If your story isn't about a bunch of guys who go from common man to demi-gods find another system to use.

[kgauck]

Is this because D&D creates a set of expectations of the game being only about the progress from common man to demi-god, or because its so bad at doing anything else? Why can't you play D&D with a set of expectations that character progress will happen at a Gurps pace?

[RaspK_FOG]

The thing is that people fail to realise that, while D&D is all becoming an individual of epic proportions (NOTE: epic as in the lyrical context, not the 21st-and-above-level), it does not necessarily have to be like *SNAP*!

[cutenfluffy]

Is this because D&D creates a set of expectations of the game being only about the progress from common man to demi-god, or because its so bad at doing anything else? Why can't you play D&D with a set of expectations that character progress will happen at a Gurps pace?

the later.

Here is an example. D&D has no rules for things like alcoholism or other addictions. Generally speaking if you want 'character and personality' you strap it on after you generate the numbers. A fighter is a fighter is a fighter in D&D.

With say GURPS, those sorts of things directly impact the numbers by providing you advantages/disads to buy with points (disads having a negative cost).

This lack tends to imply that the traditional dungeon bash of kicking in doors, killing monsters and taking their stuff is what D&D is all about. And in truth if that is what you really want to do, then go play WOW.

[RaspK_FOG]

And in truth if that is what you really want to do, then go play WOW.
OK, you should know better than to utter that last bit... That's actually flaming you know, and I want stand for it, not even if I like "real" roleplaying.

And, no, it just isn't any worse than most legends that never presented main characters as alcoholics or what not; in fact, even your assessment is wrong because there is a problem to what most people perceive in things: you want something that is not already there? Great, just plug it in! Nobody told you not to, they just did not provide you with the tools from the start...

[irdeggman]

the later.

Here is an example. D&D has no rules for things like alcoholism or other addictions.

In the Book of Vile Darkness and Unearthed Arcana drug addiction and alcoholism is addressed. It is not, however, core rule locked - whcih means that if a group wants to incorporate it into their game they can, they are not forced to. There are also many 3rd party books to choose from that have pretty much any type of addiction or drug rules you can imagine in various amounts of "detail".

That is the "strength" of D&D - it is highly adaptable within its confines.

Earlier editions were not, but 3.x is very "open" and adaptable.

The major weakness that some may perceive is that the entire system is designed around an incremental increase in abilities (by this I mean skills as well) that are descrete and not fluid. That is to say that at certain points "everything" kicks in and not something like a gradual increase that a lot of other systems use.

[DanMcSorley]

On 10/5/06, cutenfluffy <brnetboard@birthright.net> wrote:
> This lack tends to imply that the traditional dungeon bash of kicking in doors, killing
> monsters and taking their stuff is what D&D is all about. And in truth if that is what you
> really want to do, then go play WOW.

That`s so cute. You just registered and you`re already trolling and
telling people that they play wrong and bad, and your way is better
than theirs.

Could somebody ban this guy?

--
Daniel McSorley

[Birthright-L]

Guys, we`re getting a little off topic. Some truly great points have been
brought up so far, and I`m very interested to know people`s opinions on the
topic of alternate reward systems. I haven`t yet heard anything about GURPS
reward system, or what kind of situations govern the allotment of
domain-level rewards to individual characters. I`d be very interested in
learning details about these, as well as any other ideas anyone can
contribute...


On 10/5/06, Daniel McSorley <mcsorley.1@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 10/5/06, cutenfluffy <brnetboard@birthright.net> wrote:
> > This lack tends to imply that the traditional dungeon bash of kicking in
> doors, killing
> > monsters and taking their stuff is what D&D is all about. And in truth
> if that is what you
> > really want to do, then go play WOW.
>
> That`s so cute. You just registered and you`re already trolling and
> telling people that they play wrong and bad, and your way is better
> than theirs.
>
> Could somebody ban this guy?
>
> --
> Daniel McSorley
>
>
>
>
> Birthright-l Archives:
> http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
>
>
>



--
ROLL THE DICE: Dedicated to the exploration of ideas and concepts in Game
Design and Theory.
http://lordrahvin.wordpress.com

[ploesch]

aww, leave cutenfluffy alone, he doesn't know better yet.

Cutenflufy, the Difference between DnD and other systems is that in DnD you have a choice, while in systems like Gurps You have to take disadvantages or start far inferior to your peers. Truly, in some ways Gurps discourages Role-Playing.

In DnD I can choose to begin play as an old retired soldier that mostly gets drunk and has lost most of my skill. Then, as I start to adventure I drink less and gain more power. All without ever taking an actual disadvantage, or slowing my advancement compared to others unless I choose to. While in a system like Gurps, I might have to contrive a background like this, not because I want to, but because I need the points to make a character on par with everyone elses. Then, to get rid of the actual disadvantages this gives me I have to slow my advancement compared to those that are happy with their disadvantages.

That's all in addition to additional rules that can be created or used from other sources to give advantages and disadvantages from such activities.

The point is that Role-Playing has nothing to do with the advantages and disadvantages you might take. If you have to get something to take a disadvantage, then you aren't trying to roleplay, you are forcing role-playing on them.

That's not to say a system like Gurps or Champions uses is bad. They can actually be excellent tools to break power gamers out of the "I can't have a disadvantage and still have fun!" attitude that many take. They can also be allot of fun to play. But they are not superior to DnD except if your goal is to have a slow steady progression, instead of the incremental increases you get in DnD (Leveling). But there is advancement in all Role-playing Games.

[Green Knight]

GURPS? Please, kill me...D20 is no better or worse than other games, it all comes down to the DM and Players running the game. Last I playerd GURPS (or another system), there were no levels, but players still wanted cash, point rewards to advance skills with etc.

The primary rewards in any ROLE-playing (note the title of the game) should be be character and story-related. The develompent of a character's personality, history, contacts etc., are rewards in themselves. As are the act of overcomming difficulty. The rest, moeny, experience etc. are just fluff; ways to visualize the success to the PCs.

[Sigmund]

The develompent of a character's personality, history, contacts etc., are rewards in themselves. As are the act of overcomming difficulty. The rest, moeny, experience etc. are just fluff; ways to visualize the success to the PCs.

While this is all true, I do not agree it is, or should be, the primary rewards in this role-playing GAME (note the nature of the activity). Denying the rewards of level advancement and all that entails (BAB, spells, feats, etc...) is not in the spirit of DnD, and therefore not in the spirit of Birthright. The fact is, Birthright was designed for a time when DnD included racial level limits, severely restricted multi-classing, racial class limits, etc... To update Birthright to the new DnD, we might have to accept that certain changes in the setting need to be made, and not just in the mechanics, but in the design philosophy as well.

I do also agree with you though that DnD isn't really any better or worse than other games, just different. While we can structure rewards for players in our own campaigns any way that works for us and our players, for the official BRCS rewards have to work with, and appeal to, todays DnD players... preferably to the majority of them if we want BR to be used and accepted.

[cutenfluffy]

Hey, I am not saying GURPS is always better. I just think it is better at doing a roleplaying focused game because it explicitly includes rules for any character perk you can dream up. I love leveling as much as the next guy though, it is why I still enjoy playing and running D&D.

If you seriously want to get away from the leveling up mindset, then tell your players flat out that you will not be using an XP system. Pool your collective brain power and settle on something you can all live with. Rewards of skill points, stat points, feats etc.

Or alternatively if the 'jump' of each level is what is getting your bee in a bonnet then assign an XP 'cost' to all class abilities. PCs can then spend XP to buy all the features of each level as they can afford/choose. This involves a lot more book keeping though as you need to be aware of what portion of 3rd level wizard you have bought. Of course more complicated leveling rules means someone will break them more easily, but you gotta take the good with the bad.

EG
to get to 2nd level requires 1000XP
a Paladin gets 1d10 HP, +1 BAB, +1Fort, 2 Skill points, Divine Grace and Lay on hands. That is six distinct abilities for achieving that level. You could say the HP were worth 300XP, the +1 BAB and +1 Fort 200 XP each, and the other three 100XP each.
As a PC accumulates XP they can buy these powers in the order they choose, but they need to buy all of the 2nd level abilities before they can buy 3rd level, or to stop multi-classing rorts buy any ability of another class.

[kgauck]

While we can structure rewards for players in our own campaigns any way that works for us and our players, for the official BRCS rewards have to work with, and appeal to, todays DnD players... preferably to the majority of them if we want BR to be used and accepted.

It would seem that a majority of players, by a wide margin, prefer low to mid-level play, characters below 10th, 12th, or 15th level. People have talked about how they homebrew some of the slower advancement, and others have asked for more elaboration on slower advancement and alternate sets of rewards.

This is not just a BR phenomena, I have seen other polling elsewhere which shows the same trend, though significantly less pronounced. See
this poll (http://barroks-tower.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=10734&st=0) which likewise shows a distinct preference for mid-level play. Given the special conditions of the BR setting, its little surprise that preferences trend more toward lower level play even still.

As such, its quite reasonable to make a serious discussion of how to run a campaign that keeps the action at lower levels longer, and productivly. Further it should not be ruled out that such play might be the standard in BR, since obviously those seeking another style of play, can simply make use of the core rules. One always has the option in a campaign setting to simply default back to the core rules. The purpose of a campaign setting is to help players and DM's with mechanics that support the feel and flavor that makes the campaign different.

It is quite possible that tastes and opinions on how to focus play on the lower levels, and how to apply and devise rewards other than conventional experience will be so diverse, that no consensus is reached. On the other hand, if the conversation doesn't take place, we'll never know.

[Sigmund]

It would seem that a majority of players, by a wide margin, prefer low to mid-level play, characters below 10th, 12th, or 15th level. People have talked about how they homebrew some of the slower advancement, and others have asked for more elaboration on slower advancement and alternate sets of rewards.

This is not just a BR phenomena, I have seen other polling elsewhere which shows the same trend, though significantly less pronounced. See
this poll (http://barroks-tower.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=10734&st=0) which likewise shows a distinct preference for mid-level play. Given the special conditions of the BR setting, its little surprise that preferences trend more toward lower level play even still.

As such, its quite reasonable to make a serious discussion of how to run a campaign that keeps the action at lower levels longer, and productivly. Further it should not be ruled out that such play might be the standard in BR, since obviously those seeking another style of play, can simply make use of the core rules. One always has the option in a campaign setting to simply default back to the core rules. The purpose of a campaign setting is to help players and DM's with mechanics that support the feel and flavor that makes the campaign different.

It is quite possible that tastes and opinions on how to focus play on the lower levels, and how to apply and devise rewards other than conventional experience will be so diverse, that no consensus is reached. On the other hand, if the conversation doesn't take place, we'll never know.


I've never said that leveling can't be slowed, or that midlevels aren't popular. Just that leveling is still going to be a prominent reward in DnD. Also, I don't particularly agree that polls on RPG message boards are the best indicator of RPG consumer preferences. I am one of only two individuals I've gamed with in the past ten years that spent any time reading or posting to RPG message boards, and I've heard other gamers both on and off the boards say the same. I know my groups always consider leveling to be fun and important when we are playing DnD. I can't imagine that the majority of DnD players would consider leveling to be a minor thing, as Green Knight suggested they should.

My opinion is that the npcs in Birthright were lower to mid level because many 2e DnD characters couldn't gain levels any higher than that, not to mention that PCs could be rulers and opposing these npcs on the battlefield at very early levels. There's nothing wrong with this, but I don't think it automatically indicates that BR is biased towards low level play. The Awnsheighlien are prime examples of where high level play in BR can go.... I know because we did it when I was a player in BR. As I've said before, I intend myself to slow progression a bit when I run BR, I'm just saying that for the BRCS my opinion is any alterations to the xp or progression system would best be presented as options. Otherwise, the whole "we like high level games" segment (and there are people who prefer this) of the potential BR market would be alienated from the git-go.

[kgauck]

On the other hand, if the conversation doesn't take place, we'll never know.

[ploesch]

This thread has gotten me thinking.

I may only give story XP in my game. I've been doing this so far, just as a plot point. The Regents have to travel to the Temple of Rilni in Khourane, and I wasn't going to let them take their Paladin and Priest levels until they completed the quests. Somewhere along the way I decided I would automatically level them once they completed the quest.

So, maybe that's how I will handle the entire game. No XP for anything except storyline awards.

It's something that could be considered for the official rules.

[Sigmund]

On the other hand, if the conversation doesn't take place, we'll never know.

That is true as well.

[Sigmund]

This thread has gotten me thinking.

I may only give story XP in my game. I've been doing this so far, just as a plot point. The Regents have to travel to the Temple of Rilni in Khourane, and I wasn't going to let them take their Paladin and Priest levels until they completed the quests. Somewhere along the way I decided I would automatically level them once they completed the quest.

So, maybe that's how I will handle the entire game. No XP for anything except storyline awards.

It's something that could be considered for the official rules.

Can't remember if I mentioned it before, but True20's system is to not have one really. Basically, the GM levels up the PCs whenever they feel that it's needed/warranted. So far, the other DMs in the group have been doing this with DnD and it has worked just fine so far. We, as players, have not had to keep track of xp, and the DM hasn't had to worry about calculating xp for encounters, yet we all feel like we're advancing just fine. I have read posts of others complaining about the lack of xp in True20, but most of them don't seem to have actually tried it out in their game yet.

[Birthright-L]

I think one of the key reasons why "leveling up" is such a big deal to
players of D&D, and other similiar rewards in other games, is because once
they are assigned, they basically empower a player to make key decisions
that change the aspect of the game - at least, the most important aspect:
that player`s character.

Contacts and reputation and such aren`t really tangible rewards in the same
sense as XP, because they are completely open to interpretation by the DM,
and can change depending on the whims of the DM or the needs of his story at
any particular moment. DM`s are notorious for this... if you make a really
good friend out of a powerful NPC, pretty soon that powerful NPC is going to
need YOUR help. Player`s XP pools aren`t usually manipulated in this way...
once they are handed out, they are given to the players to do with as they
will (within certian restrictions, usually known ahead of time).

Thus, if you use things like contacts and reputation as rewards, they need
some kind of rules to back them up so players have some reassurance of how
and when they could be useful. If that idea is left too abstract or open to
interpretation in a game where DM gets first and last call, all of these
things are still effectively owned by the DM, not the player, and thus never
actually handed out as rewards.




--
ROLL THE DICE: Dedicated to the exploration of ideas and concepts in Game
Design and Theory.
http://lordrahvin.wordpress.com

[irdeggman]

Let me see if I'm folowing the gist of what is going on beneath the discussion (I could be wrong though).

The underlying text to me is reading "I don't like the D&D xp system so I want to use a different one for Birthright".

Is that about a fair assumption of what I've been reading or am I off some where?

[RaspK_FOG]

As far as I can tell, it's more like: "I dislike the way D&D rewards characters (i.e. levelling up), so what can be done about it?"

[Birthright-L]

Speaking just for myself here, I was interested in, "In what other ways
could we offer players rewards instead of or in addition to the way D&D
rewards characters (i.e. levelling up).

[ploesch]

Specifically for BR there are so many options, especially for regents.

Key Alliances
Marriage with strong Bloodline.
Regency Points
Gold Bars
Holdings
heirlooms OR hereditary weapons/Items
Additional Units (unmustered troops, must pay upkeep to keep them)

All of those can even be RP experiences also, rewards for good roleplaying, and something they can create themselves.

On a personal Character Note:
HP (make up those lost points (I allow this by default in my games))
Bonus Skill Points
Increased Saves
Loyal Henchmen
Increased Bloodscore
Additional Blood Powers (careful here)

I'm sure there is allot more, but those are some non-experience awards that come to mind.

[geeman]

At 02:35 AM 10/6/2006, irdeggman wrote:

>Let me see if I`m folowing the gist of what is going on beneath the
>discussion (I could be wrong though).
>
>The underlying text to me is reading "I don`t like the D&D xp system
>so I want to use a different one for Birthright".
>
>Is that about a fair assumption of what I`ve been reading or am I
>off some where?

In particular I`d suggest it`s more relevant to us where it relates
to BR. That is, the D&D XP system doesn`t work particularly well in
a "low-level" setting, so other means of rewarding characters are appropriate.

In any case, I`d suggest a few things for player rewards in BR:

1. GB.

2. RP.

3. A magic item. (We really should consider these alternative awards
in a low-magic-item setting like BR.)

4. Domain level rewards like a temporary or permanent domain
abilities like an increase in GB production, a higher population
level, an improved fortification, etc.

5. A temporary or permanent improvement to an existing domain level
stat. A province or holding level might improve, a unit`s stats
might go up, a loyalty level might increase.

6. An increase in bloodline, blood ability, etc.

7. Improved diplomatic relations with another realm as portrayed in a
bonus to diplomacy actions.

Gary

[kgauck]

I had no problem with the D&D xp system. I found it quite easy to manipulate to get the outcome I desired. By keeping CR's around 6, 7, or 8, PC's stop advancing past 10-12th level. Of course players could cast their view to published (or otherwise well known) high CR foes, but instead my players were concerned about their realms, and didn't go looking for trouble.

I did use rewards other than xp, including the other old school stand-by, gold. I used some of the suggestioned already mentioned, such as domain level rewards, increases in blood strength, diplomatic events like allies, leiutenants, and friendly reactions, and so forth.

Examples might include,
A ruined keep in Hjorvaal, scene of the famous last stand of Åke Kjellsson and his Foresters. Old Åke was once Eorl of Hjorvaal and he and his followers were sealed up in their stone keep by the Eorl of Nalhorske. Åke sent out word for assistance and relief, but Nalhorske somehow laid a fog upon all of Hjorvaal that made it quite difficult for courriers to bring news in or out of Hjorvaal. Anyway, the stone keep lay in ruins, occupied most recently by brigands of Rjuvik. Once cleared out, I declared the keep could be restored to a level 1 fortress with minimal spending, mostly to get the labor and materials out to this distand outpost. Plus, the oppressed people of Nalhorske were happy that the party had cleared out these briagands and eliminated one of their bases. Finally a level 0 law holding of old Fulgar the Bloodhanded was declared destroyed in Hjorvaal.

There was the famous incident with Ragnvald the dread sea monser which preyed upon shipping in the Tael Firth. As the Siren developed trade she caused the monster, Ragnvald, to be driven away, and it took up residence on the routes from Hollingholmen to Nowelton in Talinie and Seaharrow in Boeruine. When the adventureres slew the dread Ragnvald, they improved the loyalty of the people in Ustkjuvil, won two favors from Storm Holtson, and two of the party members increased their blood strength by one point for defeating a significant threat to their realm.

But I also used some other kinds of rewards too. There were adventures that amounted to free domain actions. Information gained was like a free Espionage Action, or could apply a bonus to a subsiquent Espionage, Agitate, or Contest Action. Sometimes information was not at the domain level, but was useful to characters as books, such as histories for a bard, theological disputations for a cleric, or alchemical theories for a wizard. Here I would regard the book as a circumstance bonus on the book's topic, if the book was present at the time of the check. Such books may include secret alchemical formulas for potions which can provide metamagic effects. Using the book as a guide allows you to make a maximized potion of jump. Books may include other kinds of secrets, like prose or poetry descriptions of treasure, their location, original protections, &c.

Players could make personal allies, not just political allies. There are nice sets of rules in Demagogues and Dynasties and City Works that deal with information networks and other kinds of favor economies. Basically, once the player has a ally, if you ask for assistance in an area the ally has influence in, make a Diplomacy check, and the the roll determines the level of aid. The DM can finess the aid to some degree, but the player has a tangible benefit, "I rolled a 19, significant aid will be forthcomming."

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com