Regeneration and Bloodtheft

[Sigmund]

I was just reading Blood Enemies again (great book to read in the john ;) ), and a question occured to me. What happens to a being with powerful regeneration blood powers if they fall prey to bloodtheft, especially if their enemy is using tighmaevril weaponry? I was specifically reading about the Spider, and how he regenerates even if his HPs fall below -10 (in the old 2ed tradition). If he were killed by a foe using a bloodsilver weapon, would his bloodline be stolen and so his regen fail to operate?

[irdeggman]

I was just reading Blood Enemies again (great book to read in the john ;) ), and a question occured to me. What happens to a being with powerful regeneration blood powers if they fall prey to bloodtheft, especially if their enemy is using tighmaevril weaponry? I was specifically reading about the Spider, and how he regenerates even if his HPs fall below -10 (in the old 2ed tradition). If he were killed by a foe using a bloodsilver weapon, would his bloodline be stolen and so his regen fail to operate?

In general I would say if a scion loses his blood abilites then he loses all the benefits of them. So IMO yes he would be dead now.

[Sigmund]

In general I would say if a scion loses his blood abilites then he loses all the benefits of them. So IMO yes he would be dead now.

I was thinking that too.... so if one had a bloodsilver weapon, and didn't care about gaining an Azrai bloodline.... maybe because one already had an Azrai bloodline..... hmm. I've been thinking of making Denin the Mutable actually be another awnshegh, maybe based on a doppleganger. Give him a bloodsilver dagger or something, and his bid to assasinate the Spider might actually work.

[irdeggman]

Remember that there are supposedly only a dozen or so tighmaevral weapons and that the Gorgon has several of them.

I would be real careful about inserting a tighmaevral dagger into the setting without a real deep back story on it.

You could check out Blood Hungry from Legends of the Hero Kings to find such a history - though.

[Sigmund]

I understand, but I've been thinking of making Denin kinda like a bloodthieving BR Jason Bourne-like superspy/assassin type... just wanna inject a little paranoia into the deal :) I think a behind-the-scenes (at least for awhile...he'd be too powerful for the PCs at first) villian who can literally be anyone would be a little scary. Maybe like a combo of V (from V for Vendetta), and the Jackal.

[cvgawde]

I understand, but I've been thinking of making Denin kinda like a bloodthieving BR Jason Bourne-like superspy/assassin type... just wanna inject a little paranoia into the deal :) I think a behind-the-scenes (at least for awhile...he'd be too powerful for the PCs at first) villian who can literally be anyone would be a little scary. Maybe like a combo of V (from V for Vendetta), and the Jackal.

Sounds almost like the Diabolic.

[BiggDawg]

If you want a race that can shapeshift without having to pay levels for it check out Changelings from Eberron, they may be just what you are looking for.

[Sigmund]

If you want a race that can shapeshift without having to pay levels for it check out Changelings from Eberron, they may be just what you are looking for.

I don't really want a whole race... just a villian.

[Cuchulainshound]

In general I would say if a scion loses his blood abilites then he loses all the benefits of them. So IMO yes he would be dead now.
Hmmm- don't have the Enemies book, always asssumed El Spider had the Invulnerability trait, since he had been repeatedly reported killed, but never actually was. (And, btr, ya can't regenerate if yer "dead"- but exceptions are the spice of good plotlines and BBEG's.)

So, how would Bloodtheft and Invulnerability work? Or would a Bloodsilver weapons be an automatic exception to the Invulnerability trait?

"Invulnerability" doesn't read as being that easy- should be a puzzle, not just "ok, screw this - get some Bloodsilver."

(If I were GM'ing it, I might consider something like the Bloodscore and Powers "stolen" to slowly flow back to the Invulnerable/Regenerating Anshweigh. The explanation would be that the Blood of Azrai can be unpredictable like that, and it would be a big hint that "something isn't what it appears to be".)

[Fizz]

"Invulnerability" doesn't read as being that easy- should be a puzzle, not just "ok, screw this - get some Bloodsilver."

Well, bloodtheft can't occur until the foe is slain. A scion with invulnerability is not truly killed until a specific criteria is met. So i'd say you can't have bloodtheft on such a creature unless you kill him in that exact manner.

'Twould be my take, anyways.

-Fizz

[Sigmund]

Well, bloodtheft can't occur until the foe is slain. A scion with invulnerability is not truly killed until a specific criteria is met. So i'd say you can't have bloodtheft on such a creature unless you kill him in that exact manner.

'Twould be my take, anyways.

-Fizz

The prob is, it's said that the Spider's death is ensured only by reducing it's body to scattered remnants, keep them separated, burn them in a fire made from the wood of a dryad's tree, after a day extinguish the fire, nad sow the ashes with salt. All this would have to be done after the spider was "killed" seems to me. Plus, the book specifically says the Spider can regen even if it's "killed". However, as a DM I would never rule that his bloodline couldn't be stolen, hell he's hard enough to kill as is. So how do ya steal his bloodline, if he can't be killed with bloodsilver, or just through bloodtheft the hard way (as because of his regen and invulnerability power he's not really dead)? If ya can steal his bloodline, does that mean his regen and invulnerability are no longer active?

[kgauck]

I think the classic solution here is that some key piece of information is missing that the DM has to invent, guaranteeing that the players will never come across it in printed materials.

[ploesch]

I think The spiders particular case is one that wasn't really considered in the original rules. So a GM will need to be creative.

My understanding is that Bloodtheft cannot occur until the Scion is killed. In the case of an invulnerable Scion, that wouldn't happen until the specifics of the invulnerability is met.

Once Bloodtheft occurs, the Scion is drained of their Divine essense, so they would lose all their blood abilities, including regenerationa and invulnerability.

In the special, and extremely rare (I can't emphasize that enough), case of a scion with invulnerability being slain by a someone using a weapon made of Blood Silver I would say it's up to the GM.

A few options:
1. As presented by Cuchulainshound, temporary transfer of the Bloodline. To avoid issues, don't have a chance of the scions getting tainted by the blood of the slain unless they really kill them. You could make a secret "Successful" blood check to further throw them off, or handle everything normally, but only temporarily. If your really evil, you could let them keep the usurped blood, but only if they turn to azrai. :->

2. You could handle everything normally, but don't award regency points until they actually kill the invulnerable Scion. Fireworks happen, and everything as normal except Regency points are not awarded until they actually kill the invulnerable scion. You could force the players to play like all went as expected, since their characters wouldn't actually know anything was amiss, you don't gain new powers everytime you usurp blood.

3. Nothing appears to happen. This is a big hint to the Characters. The GM should mark positions, and award Regency based on positions at the time of the death blow.

4. Blood Silver doesn't have the same effect on invulnerable Scions. All the effects apply, except the ability to retain all the regency from the usurpation for yourself. The Regency for Usurpation is awarded based on positions during the final Slaying of the invulnerable scion.

[Sigmund]

I'm leaning towards perhaps allowing bloodsilver to bypass the invulnerability bloodpower. As has been stressed more than once weapons made from it are extremely rare so I doubt I'd let PCs get one, or keep one if they got it. Plus, I'm thinking for my story's purposes that I'd like to create a new Awnshegh using Denin. I'd like to have made the event happen strictly according to the mechanics, but if I have to change either the effect of bloodsilver slightly, or the nature of the Spider's blood powers then I will. Interesting conundrum though.

[ploesch]

You could always leave the mechanics alone, and make the weapon special.

Spiders Bane (Felvihns Bane) - This particular Dagger was made shortly after deismarr to Destroy the Goblin Known as the Spider. Blood secretly taken from the, what was then, blooded Goblin was used during the forging to make this dagger, and intended to be used to give him final death. Before it could be used the strength of Azrais blood was discovered, and the elves knew that whoever used the dagger would be twisted by Azrais blood and become an Awnshegh, such was the price of sing this weapon. Still, one brave elf Ranger named Felvihn volunteered, knowing he must hurry home so that he could be destroyed before the blood twisted him. No one ever saw Felvihn or the Dagger again, it was assumed that he died in the attempted assasination, but noone knows for sure.

Besides whatever powers you want this Dagger to have, it should have Slaying Goblin, and/or a new power Final Death "The Spider". A power that makes the dagger instantly deadly to the awnshegh known as "The Spider". As a twist, it could have the same effect on the one who used it to kill the Spider, and this could be passed on and on.


This way there is no need to change the effect/mechanics of bloodsilver, and still achieve your purpose.

[Sigmund]

You could always leave the mechanics alone, and make the weapon special.

Spiders Bane (Felvihns Bane) - This particular Dagger was made shortly after deismarr to Destroy the Goblin Known as the Spider. Blood secretly taken from the, what was then, blooded Goblin was used during the forging to make this dagger, and intended to be used to give him final death. Before it could be used the strength of Azrais blood was discovered, and the elves knew that whoever used the dagger would be twisted by Azrais blood and become an Awnshegh, such was the price of sing this weapon. Still, one brave elf Ranger named Felvihn volunteered, knowing he must hurry home so that he could be destroyed before the blood twisted him. No one ever saw Felvihn or the Dagger again, it was assumed that he died in the attempted assasination, but noone knows for sure.

Besides whatever powers you want this Dagger to have, it should have Slaying Goblin, and/or a new power Final Death "The Spider". A power that makes the dagger instantly deadly to the awnshegh known as "The Spider". As a twist, it could have the same effect on the one who used it to kill the Spider, and this could be passed on and on.


This way there is no need to change the effect/mechanics of bloodsilver, and still achieve your purpose.


I knew I posted on this board for a reason. I'm sold, especially on the part where the weapon's bane is passed on to the wielder who kills the previous bane....very nice idea.

[geeman]

At 08:22 PM 9/23/2006, Sigmund wrote:

>I`m leaning towards perhaps allowing bloodsilver to bypass the
>invulnerability bloodpower. As has been stressed more than once
>weapons made from it are extremely rare so I doubt I`d let PCs get
>one, or keep one if they got it. Plus, I`m thinking for my story`s
>purposes that I`d like to create a new Awnshegh using Denin. I`d
>like to have made the event happen strictly according to the
>mechanics, but if I have to change either the effect of bloodsilver
>slightly, or the nature of the Spider`s blood powers then I will.
>Interesting conundrum though.

I wouldn`t make blanket ruling about bloodsilver overriding
invulnerability. Its kind of the nature of that blood ability,
though, that it might be the means by which the scion is
killed. Where one scion might only die if his head were cut off by a
relative while standing on the steps of the Gorgon`s palace, another
might only die if killed with a bloodsilver weapon in the hand of an
innocent maid.... Invulnerability should be handled on an individual
basis. There`s no one way of doing it.

The other thing to consider is that bloodsilver is "of mortals" (it`s
really "of immortal elves" but anyway) while bloodlines are
divine. One probably shouldn`t have a divinely inspired
power/ability bypassed by a manmade (elfmade) item as a general rule.

In any case, here`s the Invulnerability blood ability write up that I
use. It`s more articulated than the standard one and spells out some
specifics as to how it might be employed when one gets down to the
bottom of the list of things the power can do.

Invulnerability (Invul) - Az, Ba, Vo
You are more difficult to kill than a typical person.
Base Power: You gain the following powers and abilities for each BP
spent on Invulnerability:

BP Power
1 Instead of dying when you reach -10 hit points (or 0
constitution) you remain in a coma-like state, requiring only a
successful first aid check (Heal DC 15) to return you to 0 hit
points. You can still be killed by a coup de grace or subsequent
damage that reduces you below -10 hit points.
2 When reduced to negative hit points you no longer
lose 1 hp/round if you fail a check to stabilize. You do not become
stabile, but grow no worse.
3 While at negative hit points you regenerate 1
hp/hour until returned to consciousness at 1 hit point.
4 You are immune to all death effects from poisons,
magic or massive damage.
5 You remain conscious and aware while at zero or
negative hit points, but you are only capable of making partial actions.
6 You can no longer suffocate, drown, starve to death
or otherwise die due to lack of air or nourishment. Instead of dying
you enter a coma-like state. A successful Heal check (DC 15) is all
that is required to revive you.
7 You are only killed after a special procedure is
performed after you are reduced to -10 (or fewer) hit points. The
procedure is a relatively simple one, but not one that would occur
"naturally." That is, it is a process that requires several steps
using fairly common items. For instance, your body must be burned,
decapitated, and sprinkled with holy water. Learning the method by
which you can be killed can be done with spells like Legend Lore or
Divination. You are now effectively immune to bloodtheft unless the
special procedure necessary to kill you includes being stabbed
through the heart.
8 You are immune to critical hits.
9 You are only killed after a special procedure is
performed after you are reduced to -10 hit points. The procedure is
complex and arcane, requiring special materials and actions. As a
general guideline the procedure needed to kill a scion with this
level of Invulnerability would require the equivalent of an
adventure, while executing that procedure is the equivalent of a
series of adventures.

Gary

[Cuchulainshound]

Well, bloodtheft can't occur until the foe is slain. A scion with invulnerability is not truly killed until a specific criteria is met. So i'd say you can't have bloodtheft on such a creature unless you kill him in that exact manner.

'Twould be my take, anyways.

-Fizz

I think The spiders particular case is one that wasn't really considered in the original rules. So a GM will need to be creative.

My understanding is that Bloodtheft cannot occur until the Scion is killed. In the case of an invulnerable Scion, that wouldn't happen until the specifics of the invulnerability is met.
Um... yes and no. Sorry if I split hairs (probably too many years in English Lit/etc), but it's unclear if the loss occurse as a being is slain, or "after". To say "until" implies that first he's killed, then the BT occurs- but the rules actually imply both.

By The Rules...

Usurpation: ...If a scion’s blood is spilt as a result of his death in hand-to-hand combat then the divine essence of his or her birthright is released in a burst of immediate power...

Bloodtheft: If a blooded character is slain as the result of being pierced through the heart...

So what?

Well, in one, the blood spilling is "the result" of the death, in the second the slaying (death) is the result of the blood being spilt (heart being pierced). Bonus.

So, maybe the critter keeps their blood abilities until then. That is, for an invulnerable creature, they need to be both slain and usurped- but the question is, can the latter be done without the former?

Urg.

For instance, at what point in the Spider's regimented death sequence does he/it "die", and therefore become eligible for Usurpation? How do you stab something through the heart after burning it to ash?

(Double urg.)

I think Kgauk and others are on the right track- in the extremely unlikely event that something like T. Spider were successfully slagged, with all the T's crossed and I's dotted, or BloodThefted with a stab through the heart before then, or both, or whatever, creative interpretation would be the key element for any GM. To set down a hard rule is to reduce "the divine" to the realm of mundane earthly rules- and dat jus' ain't right.

For a player/character, apparently, ya can't be sure even if ya nuke'em from orbit- and that is a disturbing thought.
;)

[Autarkis]

Its been alluded to in BR material that the current Spider may not be the original Spider. It is not too farfetched to think that once the Spider is bloodthefted, that the cursed blood of Azrai quickly effects the recipient and turns them into the Spider. With the addition of Blood History, it is very effective.

[Sigmund]

At 08:22 PM 9/23/2006, Sigmund wrote:

>I`m leaning towards perhaps allowing bloodsilver to bypass the
>invulnerability bloodpower. As has been stressed more than once
>weapons made from it are extremely rare so I doubt I`d let PCs get
>one, or keep one if they got it. Plus, I`m thinking for my story`s
>purposes that I`d like to create a new Awnshegh using Denin. I`d
>like to have made the event happen strictly according to the
>mechanics, but if I have to change either the effect of bloodsilver
>slightly, or the nature of the Spider`s blood powers then I will.
>Interesting conundrum though.

I wouldn`t make blanket ruling about bloodsilver overriding
invulnerability. Its kind of the nature of that blood ability,
though, that it might be the means by which the scion is
killed. Where one scion might only die if his head were cut off by a
relative while standing on the steps of the Gorgon`s palace, another
might only die if killed with a bloodsilver weapon in the hand of an
innocent maid.... Invulnerability should be handled on an individual
basis. There`s no one way of doing it.

The other thing to consider is that bloodsilver is "of mortals" (it`s
really "of immortal elves" but anyway) while bloodlines are
divine. One probably shouldn`t have a divinely inspired
power/ability bypassed by a manmade (elfmade) item as a general rule.

In any case, here`s the Invulnerability blood ability write up that I
use. It`s more articulated than the standard one and spells out some
specifics as to how it might be employed when one gets down to the
bottom of the list of things the power can do.

Invulnerability (Invul) - Az, Ba, Vo
You are more difficult to kill than a typical person.
Base Power: You gain the following powers and abilities for each BP
spent on Invulnerability:

BP Power
1 Instead of dying when you reach -10 hit points (or 0
constitution) you remain in a coma-like state, requiring only a
successful first aid check (Heal DC 15) to return you to 0 hit
points. You can still be killed by a coup de grace or subsequent
damage that reduces you below -10 hit points.
2 When reduced to negative hit points you no longer
lose 1 hp/round if you fail a check to stabilize. You do not become
stabile, but grow no worse.
3 While at negative hit points you regenerate 1
hp/hour until returned to consciousness at 1 hit point.
4 You are immune to all death effects from poisons,
magic or massive damage.
5 You remain conscious and aware while at zero or
negative hit points, but you are only capable of making partial actions.
6 You can no longer suffocate, drown, starve to death
or otherwise die due to lack of air or nourishment. Instead of dying
you enter a coma-like state. A successful Heal check (DC 15) is all
that is required to revive you.
7 You are only killed after a special procedure is
performed after you are reduced to -10 (or fewer) hit points. The
procedure is a relatively simple one, but not one that would occur
"naturally." That is, it is a process that requires several steps
using fairly common items. For instance, your body must be burned,
decapitated, and sprinkled with holy water. Learning the method by
which you can be killed can be done with spells like Legend Lore or
Divination. You are now effectively immune to bloodtheft unless the
special procedure necessary to kill you includes being stabbed
through the heart.
8 You are immune to critical hits.
9 You are only killed after a special procedure is
performed after you are reduced to -10 hit points. The procedure is
complex and arcane, requiring special materials and actions. As a
general guideline the procedure needed to kill a scion with this
level of Invulnerability would require the equivalent of an
adventure, while executing that procedure is the equivalent of a
series of adventures.

Gary


Well, my take COULD be that perhaps the creation of Bloodsilver was divinely inspired. Perhaps the Gods, in their infinite mercy, gave it to mortals through it's elven creator because only the elf was advanced enough in his technique to create it, and it's needed just for this situation where spawn of Azrai still trouble the land. After all, they might not worship Gods, but the elves have certainly been influenced by them before. Or perhaps Azrai himself inspired it's creation to aid his minions in their nefarious activities, knowing full well they'd be just as likely to use it on each other (and delighting in that).

I would never rule that bloodtheft is outright immpossible for some npcs. I might rule that normal methods of bloodtheft would be ineffective on the Spider and that only bloodsilver would work. Otherwise it would be to handwavey feeling on my part if I ever decide to get rid of the Spider. I want it to feel consistent. It can still be mystical, or divine-seeming, but I want to be consistent.

For PCs, the Spider is still pretty much immpossible to kill, what I'm talking about here is one npc killing another... my PCs won't even be there, but the story of it might reach them when they have a run-in with Denin the Mutable. Basically, I'd be replacing one awnshegh with another if I go with this. As I said, I'm just striving for consistency and a sort of logic to it. Perhaps the story might inspire my PCs if the ever encounter a similar situation down the road (insert evil laugh).

Also, no matter what I do with this tidbit, I'm definitely stealing Ploesch's magic weapon. Very cool idea.

[Sigmund]

Its been alluded to in BR material that the current Spider may not be the original Spider. It is not too farfetched to think that once the Spider is bloodthefted, that the cursed blood of Azrai quickly effects the recipient and turns them into the Spider. With the addition of Blood History, it is very effective.

I was thinking this too, which is why I wanted Denin to already have Azrai's taint and be a budding awnshegh, I wouldn't want another Spider. If I go with it, I want both a new awnshegh based on a doppleganger, and an Anuirean heartland and southern coast thrown into complete disarray as the removal of the Spider's threat opens the door for the expansionist states to commit all their energy and might on war.

Then I'd also have the new Doppleganger to act as a spy, and work to escalate the conflict for kicks.

[ploesch]

Um... yes and no. Sorry if I split hairs (probably too many years in English Lit/etc), but it's unclear if the loss occurse as a being is slain, or "after". To say "until" implies that first he's killed, then the BT occurs- but the rules actually imply both.

By The Rules...

Usurpation: ...If a scion’s blood is spilt as a result of his death in hand-to-hand combat then the divine essence of his or her birthright is released in a burst of immediate power...

Bloodtheft: If a blooded character is slain as the result of being pierced through the heart...


From the Sanctioned rules:

However, because the scions divine essence is
contained in his blood, this usurpation can only occur
if a scion dies in a violent manner and his blood is
literally spilt. If a blooded character dies nonviolently,
by poison, or a spell that doesn’t result in
the spilling of blood, then the divine essence of their
bloodline passes with them, either to their heir or to
into the land itself if they had not designated a heir.
However, if a scion’s blood is spilt as a result of his
death in hand-to-hand combat then the divine essence
of his or her birthright is released in a burst of
immediate power.


If a blooded character is slain as the result of being
pierced through the heart (via a coup de grace), then
the victim's divine essence passes in its entirety, to
the slayer whether or not he is blooded.

The distinction between being pierced through the heart or blood being spilt, or Blood not being spilt is important.
No combat/spilt blood, usurpation doesn't occur, and heirs will inherit their Birthright.
Blood Being spilt, those in the vicinity can gain their fill of the Regency released, from closest to furthest.
Piercing through the heart, all the regency released goes to the person that did the piercing.

It's an important distinction. You do not have to pierce the Scion through the heart to gain Bloodline score from them in the BRCS. Piercing through the heart does give you all o the RP relased though, so is still prefered.


Specifically
slaying a scion through a blow to the heart to claim
their bloodline is commonly referred to as bloodtheft.
Bloodtheft also occurs when a scion is slain by a
weapon made of bloodsilver (Tighmaevril).
I have to admit, i sometimes mix up 2E and 3E rules, so i'm taking all these quotes from Sanctioned BRCS to remain clear.

Bloodsilver weapons DO NOT need to be pierced through the heart to have the same effect. This complicates things some, but I think the solutions presented in this thread are adequete.

[geeman]

At 10:11 AM 9/24/2006, Sigmund wrote:

>Well, my take COULD be that perhaps the creation of Bloodsilver was
>divinely inspired. Perhaps the Gods, in their infinite mercy, gave
>it to mortals through it`s elven creator because only the elf was
>advanced enough in his technique to create it, and it`s needed just
>for this situation where spawn of Azrai still trouble the land.
>After all, they might not worship Gods, but the elves have certainly
>been influenced by them before. Or perhaps Azrai himself inspired
>it`s creation to aid his minions in their nefarious activities,
>knowing full well they`d be just as likely to use it on each other
>(and delighting in that).
>
>I would never rule that bloodtheft is outright immpossible for some
>npcs. I might rule that normal methods of bloodtheft would be
>ineffective on the Spider and that only bloodsilver would work.
>Otherwise it would be to handwavey feeling on my part if I ever
>decide to get rid of the Spider. I want it to feel consistent. It
>can still be mystical, or divine-seeming, but I want to be consistent.

Bloodtheft is a pretty specific act, so I don`t think it should be
the end all be all of the bloodline system. There are other aspects
of the concept that are more significant. In this particular case,
I`d suggest that having bloodsilver automatically over-ride the
particulars of a blood ability (or any other magic items or spells
that do the same) makes bloodline part of the regular D&D magic
system or even reduces it to the point that regular magic is more
significant. Of course, you could redefine bloodsilver as divine, or
otherwise redefine aspects of the magic system in a similar way, and
nobody is saying you can`t do whatever you want in your or
homebrew. Just be aware that there might be implications to that
ruling. What happens when someone later wants to suppress another
scion`s blood ability using conventional magic? Will characters be
able to hold off the effects of Azrai`s bloodline by drinking a
potion? If one then why not the others? The simpler solution IMO is
to just rule that bloodline is dominant--and it`s more in keeping
with the campaign specific system.

Gary

[Sigmund]

At 10:11 AM 9/24/2006, Sigmund wrote:

>Well, my take COULD be that perhaps the creation of Bloodsilver was
>divinely inspired. Perhaps the Gods, in their infinite mercy, gave
>it to mortals through it`s elven creator because only the elf was
>advanced enough in his technique to create it, and it`s needed just
>for this situation where spawn of Azrai still trouble the land.
>After all, they might not worship Gods, but the elves have certainly
>been influenced by them before. Or perhaps Azrai himself inspired
>it`s creation to aid his minions in their nefarious activities,
>knowing full well they`d be just as likely to use it on each other
>(and delighting in that).
>
>I would never rule that bloodtheft is outright immpossible for some
>npcs. I might rule that normal methods of bloodtheft would be
>ineffective on the Spider and that only bloodsilver would work.
>Otherwise it would be to handwavey feeling on my part if I ever
>decide to get rid of the Spider. I want it to feel consistent. It
>can still be mystical, or divine-seeming, but I want to be consistent.

Bloodtheft is a pretty specific act, so I don`t think it should be
the end all be all of the bloodline system. There are other aspects
of the concept that are more significant. In this particular case,
I`d suggest that having bloodsilver automatically over-ride the
particulars of a blood ability (or any other magic items or spells
that do the same) makes bloodline part of the regular D&D magic
system or even reduces it to the point that regular magic is more
significant. Of course, you could redefine bloodsilver as divine, or
otherwise redefine aspects of the magic system in a similar way, and
nobody is saying you can`t do whatever you want in your or
homebrew. Just be aware that there might be implications to that
ruling. What happens when someone later wants to suppress another
scion`s blood ability using conventional magic? Will characters be
able to hold off the effects of Azrai`s bloodline by drinking a
potion? If one then why not the others? The simpler solution IMO is
to just rule that bloodline is dominant--and it`s more in keeping
with the campaign specific system.

Gary

That would make awnshegh like the Spider pretty much unkillable, which I don't like. And to be fair, if I want bloodsilver to work, but not "conventional magic" (which also, BTW, requires divine power), or potions, or whatever then I can rule that way. As has been stated, there are very very few bloodsilver weapons in the entire world, and no more can be made (unless I rule otherwise), and bloodsilver already at least goes a little way towards circumventing the process of bloodtheft just in the setting as written. I hardly see the use of bloodsilver weapons becoming a danger of derailing my campaign any more than I see the hand and eye of Vecna, or Orcus' staff derailing my campaign (because my players will never gain the use of any of them). If I want to find a way to kill off the Spider, who I can't stand, in my campaign then by golly I'll find a way. I just want to do it in a way that advances my story.

[Lee]

In a message dated 9/24/06 11:25:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET writes:

<< Autarkis wrote:
Its been alluded to in BR material that the current Spider may not be the
original Spider. It is not too farfetched to think that once the Spider is
bloodthefted, that the cursed blood of Azrai quickly effects the recipient and
turns them into the Spider. With the addition of Blood History, it is very
effective. >>

I like this!! I`ve already got at least one player who refuses to start
as a blooded scion or engage in awnshegh battles, as she is too afraid of
ending up becoming an awnshegh. (I had a lycanthrope bite her, instead. So,
there!)

I also think we may be overlooking the possibility that it may be
impossible to bloodtheft an awnshegh with Invulnerability. If the process to finally
and totally destroy the being is thorough enough, there may not be any blood
essence to absorb beyond the burst effect.

Lee.

[Sigmund]

In a message dated 9/24/06 11:25:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET writes:

<< Autarkis wrote:
Its been alluded to in BR material that the current Spider may not be the
original Spider. It is not too farfetched to think that once the Spider is
bloodthefted, that the cursed blood of Azrai quickly effects the recipient and
turns them into the Spider. With the addition of Blood History, it is very
effective. >>

I like this!! I`ve already got at least one player who refuses to start
as a blooded scion or engage in awnshegh battles, as she is too afraid of
ending up becoming an awnshegh. (I had a lycanthrope bite her, instead. So,
there!)

I also think we may be overlooking the possibility that it may be
impossible to bloodtheft an awnshegh with Invulnerability. If the process to finally
and totally destroy the being is thorough enough, there may not be any blood
essence to absorb beyond the burst effect.

Lee.


It's like the unstoppable force meeting the immovable object.

How would everyone rule on Invulnerability and the Supress Bloodline/Supress Blood Ability spells? Can they temporarily supress the invulnerability power, since the only exclusion listed in the spell's description is the Bloodform power? Seems to me that'd be much more powerful (and likely for PCs to use) than a bloodsilver weapon. In the unlikely event the Spider could be captured, would the realm spell Bloodline Destruction work on him?

In a related note, I read here that bloodsilver works to bypass a Bloodline Ward realm spell, so once again it shows how powerful bloodsilver is meant to be.

Even leaving aside my question and hypothetical scenario about killing the Spider, it will be helpful to know other's take on just how powerful bloodsilver, realm spells, true magic spells, and bloodline powers should be relative to each other since if one thinks about it all these things stem from divine power in the end.

Oh, and I too love the idea of the PCs being afraid to kill awnshegh for fear of being tainted by the evil blood of Azrai. IMO Azrai is the greatest evil god ever... seeming much more like Satan than Sauron..... subtle, deceptive, addicting, attractive on the outside and horrifying on the inside and powerful beyond belief. I can't wait to resurface him in my campaign. He's going to become BR's true God of Death and Darkness. Great potential for gaming there.

[kgauck]

Were I inclined to kill off an otherwise invincable awnshegh, be he the Sprider, Gorgon, or whatnot, I would not feel obligated to explain how it was done to the players. Since Zapruder won't be standing by with a camera, I would rather have rumors dribble out, with conflicting information, and then some more rumors about the new powers in the place.

[geeman]

At 09:10 AM 9/25/2006, Sigmund wrote:

>That would make awnshegh like the Spider pretty much unkillable,
>which I don`t like.

Well, being pretty much unkillable is what Invulnerability is all
about.... In a homebrew in which the Spider`s Invulnerability is to
be made less significant it`s probably easier to give him another
blood ability than to bypass that blood ability as a general
rule. Invulnerability often comes with its own special formula for
killing the character who has it, which is the whole point. I don`t
think it should be a unique method AND the standard bloodtheft method
using tighmaevril since that seems to be missing the point.

>And to be fair, if I want bloodsilver to work, but not "conventional
>magic" (which also, BTW, requires divine power), or potions, or
>whatever then I can rule that way. As has been stated, there are
>very very few bloodsilver weapons in the entire world, and no more
>can be made (unless I rule otherwise), and bloodsilver already at
>least goes a little way towards circumventing the process of
>bloodtheft just in the setting as written. I hardly see the use of
>bloodsilver weapons becoming a danger of derailing my campaign any
>more than I see the hand and eye of Vecna, or Orcus` staff derailing
>my campaign (because my players will never gain the use of any of
>them). If I want to find a way to kill off the Spider, who I can`t
>stand, in my campaign then by golly I`ll find a way. I just want to
>do it in a way that advances my story.

Bloodsilver weapons certainly are rare. But one must keep in mind
that in BR conventional magic is rare too. Bloodsilver is just a
substance. Rare, but not on the level of the unique (and
extraordinarily powerful) items like the Eye of Vecna or Orcus`
Wand. Bloodsilver is not even magical on its own (though it seems
its creation has some sort of mystic process, and bloodsilver weapons
are often magicked to boot.)

However, my overall point is not that one ruling (in this case that
bloodsilver bypasses the Invulnerability blood ability) will derail
the campaign. It could very well, however, open the door to other
situations of a similar nature. Shouldn`t one be able to find some
sort of substance that will hold off awnsheghlien
transformation? After all, bloodsilver bypasses
Invulnerability.... Could someone recast a bloodsilver weapon into
bindings that suppress some other blood ability (Travel, for
instance) or create a magic item that does the same? Don`t get me
wrong, it could be entertaining to have such a ruling in a
campaign. Just be prepared for players to make the accompanying leap
in logic from one thing to another.

Gary

[irdeggman]

Were I inclined to kill off an otherwise invincable awnshegh, be he the Sprider, Gorgon, or whatnot, I would not feel obligated to explain how it was done to the players. Since Zapruder won't be standing by with a camera, I would rather have rumors dribble out, with conflicting information, and then some more rumors about the new powers in the place.

And that is how pretty much everything in the 2nd ed material was structured. There was a lot left up to the DM to handle on his own.

I personally find that rumors serve a much better purpose then giving the players all of the details.

I have always liked giving different players different information that their characters' know. This information is often conflicting, since it comes from different soruces.

[Sigmund]

And that is how pretty much everything in the 2nd ed material was structured. There was a lot left up to the DM to handle on his own.

I personally find that rumors serve a much better purpose then giving the players all of the details.

I have always liked giving different players different information that their characters' know. This information is often conflicting, since it comes from different soruces.

I might very well handle things this way where the players are concerned. Then again, I might be RPing Denin after he kills the Spider and fail my will save to avoid monologueing.

Actually, what I'm 99% sure I'm going to do is have Denin be in possession of a weapon like Ploesch posted about, that was purposely created to kill the Spider himself. Solves the issue of bloodsilver alone circumventing invulnerability and makes the weapon truely unique (just like the artifacts I mentioned), and yet allows me to remove the Spider.

My hang up is I can't stand invulnerability itself. It's the reason I have never liked Superman, and Batman and Spiderman were always my favs. For all intents and purposes, Batman and Spiderman are just as invulnerable as Superman as the writer is never going to kill them off... the story would be over then. The PERCEPTION, however, is that Batman and Spiderman are more human... more vulnerable... which makes them more heroic and amazing. I imagine my opinions in this color my opinions about the invulnerability power in BR. I understand it comes from stuff like Achilles and such, but I still don't like it. I want all my villians to have a weakness, so I'm going to have to resolve this.

I noticed in reading through the Blood Enemies book that the Gorgon does not have the Invulnerability power. Not that it matters much really, his might makes him pretty much as difficult to kill as any villian in BR... as it should be.

[Sigmund]

At 09:10 AM 9/25/2006, Sigmund wrote:


Well, being pretty much unkillable is what Invulnerability is all
about.... In a homebrew in which the Spider`s Invulnerability is to
be made less significant it`s probably easier to give him another
blood ability than to bypass that blood ability as a general
rule. Invulnerability often comes with its own special formula for
killing the character who has it, which is the whole point. I don`t
think it should be a unique method AND the standard bloodtheft method
using tighmaevril since that seems to be missing the point.


Gary

I suppose this makes some sense. I guess I'm trying to find a way to make my story work without just yanking powers and replacing them, or banning powers outright. I want the Spider to be very hard to kill... but I also want someone to succeed regardless. I want the event to make sense with the rules of the game, even if the PCs never know all the details and it seems mysterious and amazing from their perspective. To this end I created this thread and continue throwing out "What ifs" and "How abouts". Just exploring the idea really, and maybe ideas that arise here can help clarify the rules a bit as well.

I understand you believe the blood power trumps bloodtheft or tighmaevril, but the rules don't really say so. They don't say the opposite either. It is a rare enough situation that perhaps they don't need to come right out and address this specific issue, but it would be nice to know what the official line might be about which type of power trumps which. Obviously realm magic is more powerful than bloodlines, since it can be used to remove an individual's bloodline. Even regular true magic can be used to block an individual's access to their bloodline for a time. Where does bloodtheft, by any method, fall in this spectrum? The Bloodline Ward spell specifically states that although it protects bloodline from bloodtheft through normal means, it does not protect bloodline from tighmaevril bloodtheft. This would imply that bloodsilver is more powerful, or effective, than garden variety bloodtheft. How much more powerful, or effective, is it? Where is the line drawn?

[Sigmund]

I've poked my own curiosity with a sharp stick again. If a scion with invulnerability is killed while under the effects of a Suppress Bloodline spell, are they really dead? Does the "death" last even after the spell effect ends, since they had no access to their invulnerability or (if they had it) regen powers at the time they were "killed"?

[ploesch]

I would treat invulnerability like BloodForm, and have it be one of those passive things that are not able to be rid of. That's my opinion though, not supported by any documentation.

[Sigmund]

I would treat invulnerability like BloodForm, and have it be one of those passive things that are not able to be rid of. That's my opinion though, not supported by any documentation.

Despite my distaste for it, the nature of the power would lead me to agree with you. Otherwise it seems it would truely be too easily circumvented.

[geeman]

At 03:31 PM 9/25/2006, Sigmund wrote:

>I`ve poked my own curiosity with a sharp stick again. If a scion
>with invulnerability is killed while under the effects of a Suppress
>Bloodline spell, are they really dead? Does the "death" last even
>after the spell effect ends, since they had no access to their
>invulnerability or (if they had it) regen powers at the time they
>were "killed"?

I could see someone going either way with this one, but I`d suggest
two things. First, if one rules that the scion is killed permanently
we get a sort of end run round the blood ability of the sort that
could prove problematic in the long run. Second, it`s kind of a
standard of fantasy/sci-fi that a creature is "killed" temporarily,
but his powers eventually restore him to life. At least, it seems
like the more common way of dealing with this sort of thing in
general in a fantasy type setting.

Gary

[irdeggman]

In 2nd ed death did not remove a scion’s bloodline. In the Book of Priestcraft pg 83 it talks about regent death and resurrection. The regent’s tie to the land is severed with his death but he retains his bloodline. This is bypassed via bloodtheft. Although the rules on bloodtheft in the Birthright Rulebook (pg 31) don’t specifically state it drains the bloodline it can be read into the description that is what is meant. Also in the Book of Priestcraft under Bloodline Investiture (pg 81) it says that bloodtheft generally serves the same purpose.

The Suppress Blood Ability and Suppress Bloodline spells and from the Book of Magecraft (pgs 91 and 95) did not specify that the spells would not work on physical transformations from bloodform (like in the BRCS) – so technically in 2nd ed the spells could be used to remove the protection from the blood ability Invulnerability and thus allow killing the scion in question.

[Doyle]

At 03:31 PM 9/25/2006, Sigmund wrote:
...<snip>... Second, it`s kind of a standard of fantasy/sci-fi that a creature is "killed" temporarily, but his powers eventually restore him to life. At least, it seems like the more common way of dealing with this sort of thing in general in a fantasy type setting.
Gary

I like this second option mostly because of the plotlines that can be associated with it. 'A foe that seems destroyed, but generations later when the heroes are too old to adventure and the secret of how the foe was defeated initialy is lost, some fool (preferrably a PC) sets in motion a chain of events that lead to the foe returning'. Examples that come to mind are Eldrad (Dr Who), Voldemort (Harry Potter) and Imotep (The Mummy).