Bloodlines for sale...

[epicsoul]

Okay, an odd idea came up the other day from one of my players. Currently, it is not something we are running with, but wanted to hear thoughts of some of you folks on this.

Keeping the concept of medieval era in mind, the idea was that often, successful middle class merchants would try and "buy" nobility. So, the player suggested that, on occasion, struggling noble families would sell off their bloodline to a commoner who gave them financial aid (and would also incidentally marry into the family usually) by making an elderly uncle invest them with their bloodline, rather than pass it on to their children. Note that this would be for members of the family that are "off" the core branch of inheritance.

Obviously, the merchant would have to be darn wealthy - as they would also have to pay for the ceremony of investiture, as well as paying the fee for the bloodline.

The social drawbacks would also be considerable - the nouveau riche syndrome would be applied to the new noble, and would face numerous reaction penalties amongst the nobility. Meanwhile, the older, destitute family now with renewed funds would also be castigated.

Note also that this more applies to commoners rather than guilders with assets/holdings/bloodlines already - but on the other hand, how much WOULD El-hadid pay for a stronger bloodline? After all, doing so would enable him (meta-gaming wise) to earn way more RP, and thus, become far more competitive.

Thoughts, folks? I know that it is not totally in keeping with the concepts of keeping bloodlines "divine", but thematically, an argument could be made for it.

Again, right now, I am avoiding this one very carefully - seems like it could disruptive by far in a campaign, especially in an established one. I am tempted to run an experimental campaign with this as a possibility someday though.

The interesting thing is that this would then, in some ways, replace the magic item shops that you see in other worlds - adventurers with lots of cash, and no magic items to buy, could cash in for magic abilities instead, via bloodlines. Oddly this would bring back some of the game balance that is argued about in other threads - that due to low magic, CR at certain levels can be skewed.

[ploesch]

Interesting, I hadn't considered the possibility before.

Noble titles, patents, and daughters have long been sold off to bolster a noble families treasury. Nouveau Riche have always sought noble families to marry into, and when in need, and lesser branches have always sought ways to bolster their family coffers in troubled times.

IMO, Humans would definetely seek to take advantage of such activity. Even the BRCS creators considered this, in a way, when creating the great heritage template. It's the opposite situation, with a family guarding their bloodline, but I'm sure some families have Bought suitors of strong enough heritage.

[ploesch]

I wanted to add...

The Divine Source of Bloodlines brings up some issues with the concept. It's the same issue I have with the great heritage template, and the way Bloodlines are passed to children in the 3Ed. BRCS.

If the source of a bloodline is Divine, then I would think they would not be so easily diluted, or sold off. We have a house rule that if a lower bloodline conceives a child with a greater one then the child will have be one rank higher than the lower bloodline. Therefore the only time the children will be of a lower strength is if there is more than one rank difference between the greater parent and the lower parent (Minor to Great).

[epicsoul]

Not the way it works, I am afraid. House ruling it is fine, but it's pretty clear that your heritage goes with the lesser order of magnitude.

This means that those few folks with great bloodlines have LOTS of in-breeding. And major lines often have some contenders towards heroic acts/infamy to try and increase their heritage to great for future generations. With lots of those getting killed off rather heroically, I might add.

One of my campaigns had this exact thing - the PC had a major line, and was absolutely determined to improve it to great before he had any children. So, EVERY chance he had, he went to adventure... neglecting his realm in the process, I might add, so that he could improve his glory.

In the end, unfortunately, taking such risks got his character killed - although, it was a glorious death, I suppose.

[ploesch]

hehe, I got so involved explaining the house rule, I didn't make my point...

IMO, the power is divine. So, selling off Blood lines would fail, if the receiver wasn't worthy, the power would return to the earth.

This is how I'd run my game because of my feelings on it.

Someone else could go the other way, and Bloodlines could be for sale at the corner bloodline store.

In the end, it's all in how you want it to work, and that is what I love about paper RPGs.

The Rules don't prohibit the selling of a bloodline, frankly I don't see any reason why it couldn't be done, according to the rules. To me, it changes a divine power into a commodity, like a GB woth of nameless goods. So if someone tried it in my game, I would have it fail.

[gazza666]

IMO, the power is divine. So, selling off Blood lines would fail, if the receiver wasn't worthy, the power would return to the earth.
See, I'm not convinced that the divine powers in Birthright are that strong, and even if they are, they have a pact not to intervene directly anymore. Certainly a cleric regent that sold off his bloodline in this fashion would probably have to face a serious atonement issue, but I'm not at all convinced that the deities of Cerilia could/would do much about it. It's not even their power, after all - they are simply (in effect) the mortals that got the best bloodlines (True Heritage++).

Indeed, I can actually see some deities supporting this. Seems thematically fine for a rich merchant to buy a bloodline and become a blooded guilder regent; if they were able to amass huge riches without even being a regent, imagine what they could achieve if they were?


The Rules don't prohibit the selling of a bloodline, frankly I don't see any reason why it couldn't be done, according to the rules. To me, it changes a divine power into a commodity, like a GB woth of nameless goods.
Isn't a "GB worth of nameless goods" pretty much what guilder regents deal with on a constant basis anyway?

In practice, aside from adventurers, I don't really see anyone making enough cash to buy a regency without already being a regent. That leaves non-regent scions as a possibility; once again excluding adventurers, there are probably not that many non-regent scions with bloodlines of major or greater status. That leaves minor bloodlines, which don't grant abilities that would be significantly expensive to duplicate with magic items (and my feelings on magic item availability are already documented).

Now, adventurers certainly have the ability and desire to make the sort of cash that would bring bloodline purchase into reach; however, adventurers can get the same thing for nothing just by the standard "kill things and take their stuff" routine (they're bound to off the occasional monstrous scion, after all).

So while unlike ploesch I really don't have a problem with the idea in concept, I'm not really convinced that there's any demand for it.

[epicsoul]

See, I'm not convinced that the divine powers in Birthright are that strong, and even if they are, they have a pact not to intervene directly anymore. Certainly a cleric regent that sold off his bloodline in this fashion would probably have to face a serious atonement issue, but I'm not at all convinced that the deities of Cerilia could/would do much about it. It's not even their power, after all - they are simply (in effect) the mortals that got the best bloodlines (True Heritage++).

Indeed, I can actually see some deities supporting this. Seems thematically fine for a rich merchant to buy a bloodline and become a blooded guilder regent; if they were able to amass huge riches without even being a regent, imagine what they could achieve if they were?


Isn't a "GB worth of nameless goods" pretty much what guilder regents deal with on a constant basis anyway?

In practice, aside from adventurers, I don't really see anyone making enough cash to buy a regency without already being a regent. That leaves non-regent scions as a possibility; once again excluding adventurers, there are probably not that many non-regent scions with bloodlines of major or greater status. That leaves minor bloodlines, which don't grant abilities that would be significantly expensive to duplicate with magic items (and my feelings on magic item availability are already documented).

Now, adventurers certainly have the ability and desire to make the sort of cash that would bring bloodline purchase into reach; however, adventurers can get the same thing for nothing just by the standard "kill things and take their stuff" routine (they're bound to off the occasional monstrous scion, after all).

So while unlike ploesch I really don't have a problem with the idea in concept, I'm not really convinced that there's any demand for it.

Interesting that you say that. I guess it really depends on how much a non-blooded merchant could theoretically make, right? Using ply trade as an example, it is curious how much they could earn, especially if they are a higher level "expert" class (NPC). Not only that, but what would the selling price be for a line of nobles that are just at the Count or lower range (so, say, the Maccelns in the PS Endier book). Here are blooded scions that have no holdings - so, how much would their selling price be for one of their bloodlines? Would it be less than a GB (2000 gp) value? More? Heck, why not let the elderly scion of the household sell it off, just before he dies, for the rest of the estate. It's either that, or ONE person gains 1 lousy point to the bloodscore anyways. Which is more valuable to the household/estate anyways?

Maccelns aren't the best example, admittedly, as they are fairly cutthroat underworld figures, but you get the idea - what about the minor noble families of Roesone, as a different example?

I very much agree with you on the divine thing - the new gods have nothing to do with the bloodlines, so why should that matter?

[Cuchulainshound]

Keeping the concept of medieval era in mind, the idea was that often, successful middle class merchants would try and "buy" nobility...
Well, the two are not exactly parallel.

In medieval times, some upper nobility could indeed grant a lesser title, but all they had to do was defend their decision IF challenged. Here, the noble has to completely relinquish the "title"- far more serious.

(I don't know- does the 3.5 ed address non-blooded Regents?)

Regardless, there is then the question- do the lieges of the noble relinquishing noble approve of/recognize the new-comer? Selling a bloodline may be an individual decision, but not trading off a title, unless you're at the top of your particular foodchain. And then what of any below you? And peers, and neighbors, and enemies... sounds like a recipe for disaster.

The Seller would have to be pretty desperate, or completely out of the picture politically (already on the outs, or never in contention to begin with.)

Possible, certainly, but the conditions would have to be extreme to say the least!

[gazza666]

OK, let's check it out. We'll use a 20th level Expert, and assume that he has 23 ranks in an appropriate Craft, an Int of 18 (start at 13, +5 from levels), a +10 magic item that boosts his craft ("Tools of the Master Weaponsmith" or similar), and 5 apprentices that can give him Aid Another. That's a total of +47 to his Craft check, or an income of 1880gp a month. Let's round it up to 1GB a month or 3GB a season - not awful, but nothing that's going to terrify any regent (well, maybe a source regent). And that's a near optimal case - I'm assuming that the Expert has no expenses whatsoever (including paying his apprentices, eating, and so on). It's not clear to me that we should assume non-adventuring NPCs have the sort of gear that their adventuring compatriots have; if they do, then the distinction between adventurers and non-adventurers that I was making before disappears, obviously.

The argument is kind of self defeating, though. If someone who isn't blooded can nonetheless earn the sort of cash that a scion would consider selling his bloodline for, what benefit does the individual who isn't blooded get that would inspire him to buy it? It's not without risk, after all - the Gorgon And His Amazing Friends might come a-knockin', and in BRCS you also run the danger that some adventuring regent might gut you to get a much needed regency boost. I'm not sure I would consider getting (say) the ability to see through illusions would really be worth this added risk.

With all that said, though, I guess there would be some individuals that might go for it. Another aspect to this is that the word "noble" isn't necessarily appropriate. Someone that runs a very successful business empire doesn't necessarily have a noble title even if he has a great bloodline and more regency than the Gorgon - and not all wizards or clerics would necessarily rub shoulders with their landed peers either.

[Cuchulainshound]

I have to wonder how many 20th level unblooded craftsfolk are wandering about Cerelia.

Otoh, real money isn't made by one individual, but by that individual skimming from a force of others working for them.

IF you wanted to include a comment in the rules, I wouldn't put a hard price on it, but imply it would be "astronomically expensive and extremely rare", and leave the rest to the GM.

[gazza666]

I have to wonder how many 20th level unblooded craftsfolk are wandering about Cerelia.
Or indeed how many 20th level characters with NPC classes are wandering around the multiverse. I wanted to show that even the optimal case for a high level expert wasn't really all that impressive.


Otoh, real money isn't made by one individual, but by that individual skimming from a force of others working for them.
True, but that sort of person is pretty much a guild regent in Birthright.

[geeman]

At 04:56 PM 9/3/2006, epicsoul wrote:

>Keeping the concept of medieval era in mind, the idea was that
>often, successful middle class merchants would try and "buy"
>nobility. So, the player suggested that, on occasion, struggling
>noble families would sell off their bloodline to a commoner who gave
>them financial aid (and would also incidentally marry into the
>family usually) by making an elderly uncle invest them with their
>bloodline, rather than pass it on to their children. Note that this
>would be for members of the family that are "off" the core branch of
>inheritance.

Well, first and foremost, I think there`s a fundamental difference
between the example used and the setting`s nearest
equivalent. Bloodline does not equate to nobility. Yes, bloodline
allows characters to participate at higher level than other
characters, but one can have a noble title and not a bloodline. The
example of those who gain riches using those riches to buy their way
into the various trappings of power/nobility is one thing. Buying a
bloodline is another. Bloodline represents more than just a
lineage. It represents an actual ability. Trying to purchase a
bloodline directly would equate more directly to actually purchasing
the vigor, personality, education or some other intrinsic quality of
a person, not just his noble title.

It`s also probably important to note that due to the direct
theological origins of bloodline and the culture of (most) Cerilians
it would probably be seen as less socially acceptable to purchase a
bloodline. Bloodlines are, after all, the living remnant of the gods
that was transferred to humanity in the setting`s most holy
moment. Purchasing that power would for many Cerilians be like
trying to bribe one of the holy figures of a major religion--not just
the priests, mind you, but the prophets themselves. "Hey, Abraham,
how much do you want for your status as beloved of God? C`mon, I got
sixty shekels. No? OK, sixty-two, but not a drachma more...." Such
a thing doesn`t get you invited to sit at the nice table with the
fancy guests. It gives an entirely new definition to the concept of
parvenu if one actually buys one`s way into the ranks of the divinely
touched. (Though, historically, it wouldn`t be the first time
either... but I digress.)

But all that said... of course it`d happen. The differences between
noble title and bloodline actually wind up working both ways in
certain cases. That is, bloodline can be transferred, and it is a
scare commodity, so nobles (who seem to run into financial troubles
fairly often) would in certain cases wind up bargaining with
it. Your example of a great-uncle (or aunt, cousin, third son,
retired grandparent) is the most likely scenario, especially if they
are childless or if their bloodline might not be all that
strong. He`s out of line for the succession and quite getting on in
years. On his deathbed he has no one to leave his legacy to, and a
ceremony can transfer it to another member of the family... or
someone who might pay top gp for it. You know, the realm has been
rather strapped for cash lately, and the kingdom could use new
banners for the palace. Maybe uncle should take one for the team as
his last act.... After all, the bloodline will be lost if not
transferred, and wouldn`t it be nice to have a little piece of the
old boy around after he`s gone, and that nice young son of the rich
noble may not be handsome or one of us in a strict sense, but we
might be able to welcome him into the family for a short time before
subjecting him to the normal amount of private disdain we express for
all those beneath our station.

Also, consider that among the Vos bloodline can be transferred to the
warrior who proves he deserves it rather than remain with an unworthy
fighter of fortunate birth. So we know that the idea isn`t totally
alien to the concept of bloodline inheritance/transfer and even
though many people might consider it a blasphemy, one person`s
blasphemy is another person`s pragmatism. At some level all nobles
wander around with the concept of committing bloodtheft on one
another in the backs of their minds. It started happening right
after Deismaar. Of course, commoners consider the idea too. Why not
do it with a gold bar rather than a gilt dagger?

I think it`s also worthwhile to consider that in the cases of
hostages or POWs taken during war one threat to gain ransom would be
death... but another would be divestiture. "We want 5GB for the
prince, and 3GB more for his bloodline." If one could transfer the
bloodline of a defeated enemy to a trusted aide de camp wouldn`t that
be a great reward? (Assuming all parties didn`t find it utterly
despicable, that is.) Evil characters would have no such
compunction--which makes it an interesting thing for the DM to keep
in his bag o` tricks.

Gary

[Cuchulainshound]

Good points, all.


It`s also probably important to note that due to the direct
theological origins of bloodline and the culture of (most) Cerilians
it would probably be seen as less socially acceptable to purchase a
bloodline... Purchasing that power would for many Cerilians be like
trying to bribe one of the holy figures of a major religion...

But all that said... of course it`d happen.

...one person`s blasphemy is another person`s pragmatism. At some level all nobles wander around with the concept of committing bloodtheft on one
another in the backs of their minds... Of course, commoners consider the idea too.

Gary
Of course, how commonly known is it how Bloodlines, Transferance and Usurpation works? How far down the chain of command, how far out of the dusty bookshelves of scholars, are the details, or even general mechanics, known? "Most" commoners wouldn't even have the vocabulary to discuss it, much less the time or opportunity to study it in any adequate detail to comprehend the potential.

I have an image of a comicbook/movie supervillain (ala any of the Batman, Crow or Blade movies), an aging, ever-powerhungry (and unblooded) gangster kingpin, sitting in his sleazy palacial headquarters, surrounded by everything and everyone money can buy- and having just been told the Truth about Bloodlines...

"I've had enough of this nickel and dime stuff... I want... POWER!"

Not everyone who lusts after a Bloodline aspires to be "nobility". The would-be prophet, as well, could fall into the same category, or the over-achieving magus.

So... how do we address this in the rules?

[ThatSeanGuy]

I have an image of a comicbook/movie supervillain (ala any of the Batman, Crow or Blade movies), an aging, ever-powerhungry (and unblooded) gangster kingpin, sitting in his sleazy palacial headquarters, surrounded by everything and everyone money can buy- and having just been told the Truth about Bloodlines...

"I've had enough of this nickel and dime stuff... I want... POWER!"

Not everyone who lusts after a Bloodline aspires to be "nobility". The would-be prophet, as well, could fall into the same category, or the over-achieving magus.

So... how do we address this in the rules?

Well, first, that's a really awesome visual, and sounds like an /awesome/ villain for a campaign. Even a group of antagonists-what if those three figures you described found themselves working together to rescearch how, exactly, to take the power of the blood for themselves? Very neat possibilities.

Getting to the actual question, though; I would think the rules for upsurption cover some of it. You just have to make sure the first scion you kill is the last of their line, and then you've got a little bit of the blood and getting more is that much easier. (Easy being an extrordinary term here.) Alternativly, I would say its rare enough that you'd just role play it out-being "adopted" or appointed heir ala Rogr Alegonder, for example, could easily be streched, from a mechanical standpoint, to cover any mostly willing exchange of bloodline power; such as our example of a scion being bought or coerced in to sharing the wealth, so to speak.

The actual reasons-marraige, making sure the family estates stay in the family for another year, saving the count's daughter from the evil wizard, kidnapping the count's daughter and demanding his heritage in exchange-are, I think, best kept as the stuff of adventures, rather than tacking on a new mechanic when the inheritance or upsurption mechanics applied to a broader perspective work just fine.

[geeman]

At 11:14 AM 9/4/2006, Cuchulainshound wrote:

>Of course, how commonly known is it how Bloodlines, Transferance and
>Usurpation works? How far down the chain of command, how far out of
>the dusty bookshelves of scholars, are the details, or even general
>mechanics, known? "Most" commoners wouldn`t even have the
>vocabulary to discuss it, much less the time or opportunity to study
>it in any adequate detail to comprehend the potential.

To a certain extent, I suppose this really depends on how gritty a
game one is going for. That is, if one wanted to portray the common
people as uneducated (academically) and living in highly insular
little villages then it would be likely they would have no idea what
the nuances of bloodline were. Generally, I go for a more fantastic
play environment in BR where the common people aren`t really the
churls they might have been in the real world period that BR
thematically references. That is, peasants can read, their children
get a basic education, they are more like the early 20th century
working class than the serfs of the middle ages. I`d support that
idea with various other social dynamics present in the setting (a
temple that has actually effective healing magics, for instance) to
justify the idea as well as the way peasants are generally portrayed
in fantasy literature. It`s more pleasant IMO if one doesn`t have to
struggle with such things in a gaming situation.

So, I think most commoners would have a basic idea about how
bloodline works. They`d have been told that their leaders have a
power "granted" (read: accidentally acquired) by the gods that they
employ to rule, and the general background of the setting is
understood by all. Of course, within that group would be people who
don`t get it--who assume that, for instance, anyone can acquire a
bloodline by stabbing a scion through the heart whether he is a scion
himself or not (which is how the BRCS does it, I believe) but most
people will understand that`s not how it works (in the 2e version of things.)

However, there are nuances and a science behind bloodline that I
don`t think the general population or even scions themselves
understand or are even aware of. The Land`s Choice is mysterious but
I think it is, essentially, logical and with an intelligence purpose
that only a very few scholars of Cerilia have any inkling
of. Furthermore, I like the idea that there is a "genetics" of
bloodline transfer that leads to certain blood abilities manifesting
in scions, and that BR has its equivalent of Frank Herbert`s Bene
Gesserit who operate behind the scenes in order to understand the
methods of that mystic force so they can manipulate it for their own ends.

>I have an image of a comicbook/movie supervillain (ala any of the
>Batman, Crow or Blade movies), an aging, ever-powerhungry (and
>unblooded) gangster kingpin, sitting in his sleazy palacial
>headquarters, surrounded by everything and everyone money can buy-
>and having just been told the Truth about Bloodlines...
>
>"I`ve had enough of this nickel and dime stuff... I want... POWER!"
>
>Not everyone who lusts after a Bloodline aspires to be
>"nobility". The would-be prophet, as well, could fall into the same
>category, or the over-achieving magus.
>
>So... how do we address this in the rules?

First of all, let me comment that I absolutely love the above
vignette. That`s exactly the kind of vibe I enjoy in gaming in
general, and something that I think BR is uniquely suited to address.

As for how to do so, I would suggest the career paths of a couple of
BR`s more infamous awnsheghlien, namely the Gorgon and the
Serpent. At first, a scion of Cerilia might be content to gain
temporal authority, because the construction of a kingdom is the
quickest way to power that they are able to aspire to. However, as
time goes on, as they gain a certain level of political influence
they realize that the limitations of kingdom and rulership are just
as profound as might be the limitations of... mortality
itself. Godhood is what those two are after. After all, it is the
power of the gods that fuels their rulership, leads to their
transformation and is the most obvious path of power they can
see. It has happened in the past--the Cerilian gods were themselves
once mortals. The route to godhood is the path of power they are after.

The first thing such characters would be interested in doing is
increasing their bloodline. There have been several suggestions as
to how that might happen. The Gorgon`s "rampages" might really be a
very systematic and purposeful "sowing" of the crops of Cerilian
scions every generation or so in order to feed his power. Hence, his
bloodline score was originally described as being 100+ because we
have no idea what he`s been up to for the past several
centuries. The Serpent is similarly described as being interested in
bloodtheft.

Another thing these characters might do is being a temple dedicated
to them. The Serpent has clearly gone this direction more than the
Gorgon, but he has his own little equivalent. They would each want
to maintain their power, certainly, but they want to rival that of
the gods and that means worshippers.

At that point we start getting into the area where the BR domain
rules and the D20 class system start to require additional
materials. We have to go to various mythos books and game mechanics
to see how those settings have handled divine ascension. On the
whole, however, that`s where I see the idea ultimately leading.

Gary

[Green Knight]

Having a bloodline means you actually have a spark of divinity inside you. A real, genuine spark of divinity. It sets you apart from lesser creatures and gives meaning to your life and a promise of great destiny.

I can not see that this is something a lot of scions are willing to give up - even if they are dirt poor or starved to death. Maybe it happens from time to time, but it is so rare as the be almost unheard of.

Even if a bloodline WAS sold, what would other nobles think of a House that actually sold away its divinity to a filthy commoner? I think the social reprecussions would be fatal.

What about the churches? If done at all, this selling would probably be something that they'd like to control. Anyway, I can't figure out priests of Haelyn to King of Gods to help Nobility hand out their divinity to Commoners.

I could go on. Point is - a bloodline is not a commodity. It is divinity. And it is not sold - the very notion is likely far more abhorrent than bloodtheft.

[Green Knight]

Idea: Make an awnshegh that is the result of someone buying a bloodline; his blood was corrupted by his greedy and ungodly ways, and twisted into the derivation of Azrai...

[geeman]

At 01:39 AM 9/6/2006, Green Knight wrote:

>Having a bloodline means you actually have a spark of divinity
>inside you. A real, genuine spark of divinity. It sets you apart
>from lesser creatures and gives meaning to your life and a promise
>of great destiny.
>
>I can not see that this is something a lot of scions are willing to
>give up - even if they are dirt poor or starved to death. Maybe it
>happens from time to time, but it is so rare as the be almost unheard of.

Well, not to come off as completely cynical (I`m only about 94%
cynical) it isn`t the divine aspect of the character that necessarily
guides his decision making process; it`s the human aspect. Bloodline
would be a commodity to certain people. Imagine the attitude of a
third or fourth son who has been effectively pushed out of the
succession. All he wants is to live a good life, and now his family
has cut him off. Why not sell off that nasty reminder of his
estranged relatives? "Curse them an their `gift` of the gods... lot
of good it ever did me...." There has to be a certain number of
disaffected people amongst the ranks of Cerilian scions. The more
likely scenario, however, is the one described already: an aged,
dying member of the family whose bloodline can be passed on, with the
help of a willing (read: well-paid) priest, to someone who will in
exchange support the rest of the family financially.

Those with a particularly low bloodline might not have blood
abilities at all--the may not ever have really sensed the power of
their bloodline or used it to much advantage. Such characters might
be convinced to pass along their bloodline in exchange for a comfortable life.

As for the divine nature of bloodline, consider how many people "buy"
their way into absolution. For centuries the church literally sold
forgiveness and performed rituals to help a person`s soul get into
heaven. Many people who profess to be religious seem to equate their
holiness with how much money they wield--even if they don`t actually
donate that money to charity. Consider the outrageous greed shown by
many religious figures (I`ll not name any) in recent years, and
recognize that that is not a new trait. It`s been around since the
very beginning.

It`s also important to remember that divinity comes in many forms...
and some of them are not all that pleasant. In BR a few of them are
even based on greed, persuasion, manipulation, etc.

>Even if a bloodline WAS sold, what would other nobles think of a
>House that actually sold away its divinity to a filthy commoner? I
>think the social reprecussions would be fatal.
>
>What about the churches? If done at all, this selling would probably
>be something that they`d like to control. Anyway, I can`t figure out
>priests of Haelyn to King of Gods to help Nobility hand out their
>divinity to Commoners.

Anuireans would most likely view the idea as highly repugnant, and
react as you suggest. That is, nobles would find an excuse to
challenge the offender, while various temples would probably shut him
out. That assumes, of course, that the act is publicized, but any
Anuirean worth his breeches is going to be smart enough to realize
the act is going to be a social nightmare, so they`d keep the exchange secret.

Among the other Cerilan cultures, however, it would be less
offensive, ranging all the way down to the Vos who would not be
offended by the concept much at all--except maybe in that they think
a warrior should just take what he wants rather than _pay_ for
it.... Several other Cerilian races (goblins, orogs, gnolls) would
probably not find the idea terribly upsetting either. Amongst the
Brecht... I don`t know. That`s a tough call. The commercial nature
of the culture makes me suspect they would not be all that adverse to the idea.

>I could go on. Point is - a bloodline is not a commodity. It is
>divinity. And it is not sold - the very notion is likely far more
>abhorrent than bloodtheft.

I think that`s a pretty good articulation of how some people (the
"lawful" and righteous Anuireans mostly, but not limited to them)
might feel about the subject. Most nobles would be insulted by the
offer to purchase a bloodline--if it were made outright. Of course,
people don`t make that kind of offer directly. It`s done through the
system of hint and innuendo so popular amongst those of power, but
the point is that the majority of people might have attitudes similar
to that described above, but not everyone would. In fact, in certain
Cerilian cultures (as already mentioned) the process is described as
overt and maybe not even requiring compensation. Do the Vos scions
whose bloodline is given to a more worthy warrior actually get paid
or are they simply shoved off into the varsk pit to fend for themselves?

Gary

[Cuchulainshound]

Hmmm... <thinks a moment>...

Varsk pit!

(Crowd) "Varsk Pit! Varsk Pit! Varsk Pit! Varsk Pit! Varsk Pit! Varsk Pit! Varsk Pit! Varsk Pit!..."

<ahem>


Point is - a bloodline is not a commodity. It is divinity. And it is not sold - the very notion is likely far more abhorrent than bloodtheft.
It is not sold... willingly. The measure of someone's "will" is highly subjective, and regretable mistakes are sometimes made when the situation dictates.

"We have your children, and we want your bloodline. It's just that simple, really- it's time to retire... or, you can join them in the nearest ditch..."

And temptation can be just as strong a motivator as blackmail, inimidation, or any other pressure.

"I am willing to give you a hereditary title, and lordship over a small town on the coast, with a Trade Route worth 1 GB/season... all you have to do is give up that bloodline that the church has never honoured you for anyway..."

Just as some Scions think nothing of bloodtheft, some could see a bloodline as merely a way to power and riches, and not the goal in and of itself. How many notable medieval clerical figures were more concerned with the luxury and power that a position would give them than with their own souls?

Of course, I think that any such "nouveau-sang" Scion would have a huuuuuuge bullseye painted on them, because if there were ever a target of opportunity for bloodtheft with impunity, that would be them.

Once you start to think about it, the challenges of surviving such a "purchase" start to dwarf the obstacles to achieving it in the first place.

[ploesch]

Let's not forget, investing a Bloodline is no small matter. It takes a standard Domain Action, A willing priest and a bit of money.

In the end, I think the rules handle the Mechanics of doing such a thing, it should be left up to the GM if they want to allow it to happen in their campaign, and the consequences of such action.

I think at this point we are going around in circles, those who like it are fighting for it, and those that don't like it are fighting against it.

[epicsoul]

Let's not forget, investing a Bloodline is no small matter. It takes a standard Domain Action, A willing priest and a bit of money.

In the end, I think the rules handle the Mechanics of doing such a thing, it should be left up to the GM if they want to allow it to happen in their campaign, and the consequences of such action.

I think at this point we are going around in circles, those who like it are fighting for it, and those that don't like it are fighting against it.

True. I never said it wouldn't be an expensive proposition. However, non-blooded folks could do it, albeit extremely rarely. Sure, there aren't 20th level experts running around. However, 3rd level experts may be somewhat common - and, if they continue to have amassed wealth through the family business for a few generations, the clan patriarch may just be able to set it up for one of their grandchildren, or great grandchildren, to buy a bloodline, perhaps even a title. It may almost bankrupt the family, but could buy the "respect" that they never had before.

Well, thanks for the feedback, folks. Don't think it will happen, or be visible in the campaign I am running now, but perhaps one in the future.

[ploesch]

....I never said it wouldn't be an expensive proposition. .....
I was just pointing out that it's not as easy as your Bloodline for your children, or any other threat that might happen. If it was that easy, well, you got the kids right? They'd likely be easier to coerce.

[Green Knight]

If a line of wealthy merchants wants to be blooded, I tend to presume that the normal way of doing this would be for their heir to marry one of the later offspring of a minor noble family. No matter how greedy and corrupt the merchant, I propose that he would rather do this - "purchase" a bloodline for his descendants than do something so unnatural as to but a bloodline outright and have it invested.

Moreover, I fundamentally disagree about the attitude of scions with regards to their bloodline. I think even a poor 4th son of a minor noble would hardly even contemplate such a transaction, let alon think of it himself. Giving up your bloodline would be like selling you soul - which is not something most people would. After all, the gods gave men souls, and scions bloodlines. Who are mortals to meddle in the divinely ordanied way of things...

This is a bit Anuireocentric (as a most of my scriblings), but I see similar if not identical mechanisms for other cultures. A mighty Vos warrior would never BUY a bloodline. He would SEIZE it by force. Might makes right in Vosgaard, and no warrior worth his axe would even contemplate buying a bloodline (and the priests of Beilinik would likely censure such actions severly IMO).

[Lee]

In a message dated 9/7/06 10:21:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET writes:

<< Green Knight wrote:
If a line of wealthy merchants wants to be blooded, I tend to presume that
the normal way of doing this would be for their heir to marry one of the later
offspring of a minor noble family. No matter how greedy and corrupt the
merchant, I propose that he would rather do this - "purchase" a bloodline for his
descendants than do something so unnatural as to but a bloodline outright and
have it invested. >>

I think this is more likely to happen, as it is certainly less messy than
trying to buy a bloodline outright. It is also more in line with the
dynasty-building element that lurks below the surface of BR.
Which raises another question, definitely social: how common are arranged
marriages? Anyone do much with that in their games?

Lee.

[Lee]

In a message dated 9/7/06 10:21:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET writes:

<< Green Knight wrote:
If a line of wealthy merchants wants to be blooded, I tend to presume that
the normal way of doing this would be for their heir to marry one of the later
offspring of a minor noble family. No matter how greedy and corrupt the
merchant, I propose that he would rather do this - "purchase" a bloodline for his
descendants than do something so unnatural as to but a bloodline outright and
have it invested. >>

I think this is more likely to happen, as it is certainly less messy than
trying to buy a bloodline outright. It is also more in line with the
dynasty-building element that lurks below the surface of BR.
Which raises another question, definitely social: how common are arranged
marriages? Anyone do much with that in their games?

Lee.

[nagebenfro]

every marriage that has occured in our games in Aberdeen has been arranged, if that is any help.

[Cuchulainshound]

I think at this point we are going around in circles, those who like it are fighting for it, and those that don't like it are fighting against it.
With the possible exception of GK, I didn't feel anyone is "fighting" for or against it. I think it's generally agreed that it's certainly possible, not "inconceivable", but there are a lot of obstacles, both practical and social. We're just exploring the possibilities/ramifications.


If a line of wealthy merchants wants to be blooded, I tend to presume that the normal way of doing this would be for their heir to marry one of the later offspring of a minor noble family. No matter how greedy and corrupt the merchant, I propose that he would rather do this - "purchase" a bloodline for his descendants than do something so unnatural as to but a bloodline outright and have it invested.
A point not without merit. Altho' we've already pointed out that historical parallels are not exact, merchants often "married up", and that would be a way for a "line" to gain blood ties, (or for a truly wicked conniver to place themselves in a position to "inherit" the bloodline?)

But for the selfish, impulsive, unscrupulous person who wants it "now", for themselves, regardless the consequences... (and there certainly are folk like that out there; and more in fantasy stories than RL.)


Moreover, I fundamentally disagree about the attitude of scions with regards to their bloodline. I think even a poor 4th son of a minor noble would hardly even contemplate such a transaction, let alon think of it himself. Giving up your bloodline would be like selling you soul...
But we aren't always talking about just nobles, and nobody said it was a general attitude, but up to the individuals- and those vary across the board. Fantasy stories (which is the realm we inhabit in this discussion!) are in fact full of folk "selling their souls"- they usually regret it, and everyone else sees it as a huge mistake, but they just keep doin' it! :rolleyes:

Furthermore, those same fantasy stories are equally full of stunningly ingenius evil forces, who apply incredibly precise pressure at the right time to the right person... and how many of those same scions, blooded or not, would lose their children, their entire lineage, rather than give up their bloodline? What father, mother, wouldn't be tempted to "sell their soul" to save their children?

Offensive? Absolutely. Painful? No doubt. But "out of the question"?... not in this world, not in most. Ymmv.

[Green Knight]

Now we are getting somewhere. Now the sale of a bloodline is less of a trade of commodities, and instead a dark and angst-ridden story device.

The general rule that sales do not occur, or are generally even considered, gives rise to MANY excellent plot items, with one example:

The Vos warlord who didn't actually seize his lineage for himself, but had a few Khinasi "merchants" bring him a young girl, kidnapped from her family, and not stabbe through the heart directly, but having a cast-out priest of Beilinik transfer the bloodline in return for favours. Later that priest suddenly becomes a very important figure, even a regent priest, in the realm of the Vos warlord, and they share a dark secret. If this ever comes out, the warlord will be disgracd, and his growing "empire" will fall appart, and the priests of Belinik will fall upon them both with a vengenance. Oh, and maybe the girl isn't killed outright, but left in the snow to die of exposure or to be eaten by wolves, only to be found and nurtured by a priestess of Kriesha. And so on.

The actual mechanics I think work well enough, and I'm sure such things do happen, I just wanted to point out the difference between thinking it a commodity rather than something truly special and unique.

[Cuchulainshound]

Ah- no, I agree with you on that point, that for any regent to seek to sell their bloodline would require an exceptionally debased and desperate individual, rare to the point of dubiousness.

But that raises another question...


...Minor bloodlines are usually descended from less or non-famous figures that were present at Deismaar. Thousands of common foot soldiers and camp followers survived the battle to perpetuate minor bloodlines. Most scions (65%) have a minor bloodline. Scions of minor bloodlines generally have low bloodline scores...
Are there blooded families who have never lived up to their potential, who remain anonymous, or ingorantly content to be the traditional local head-family of some small backwater burg where their ancestor camp-follower* retired after the battle of Deismar? It states that it wasn't until "after" the battle that the effects became known. Does every blooded line have a history of aspiring to be Regents, in the BR sense? Could there be some "lost" lines out there?
(* With the term "camp-follower", some would be neither educated, socially significant, nor particularly motivated. The blooded prostitute, hill-billy muleskinner or scullery maid... accidents of fate.)

Scions with up to 19 bloodscore have no blood abilities, and with the current "scion level" rules, if they don't know, how would they ever? Dreams, destiny, fate aside... practically speaking, could small, minor bloodlines be scattered about the back-country?

(If so, they may not even know exactly what it is that they have. Altho' destiny "should" have a way of promoting them to their "proper" station, maybe they've been passed by somehow.)

And would they know the value, much less potential, of what lies hidden within them?

[Green Knight]

The way I see it, bloodlines are there from birth, but need not manifest much until the child is older. How old can vary. I tend to go for a gradual strengthening, so that the full power of a bloodline need not manifest until well into adult age, but it will be at least "visible" by young adult stage.

I imagine the great noble families nuturing the divine spark in their children, telling them of the legendary powers of their lineage and havign the practice/whatever their powes. They also have the stronger lines, so they manifest more readily.

But yeah, on the flip side of that coin, I can readily see such things as you describe having a place in the tapestry of Cerilia.

[ploesch]

Ah- no, I agree with you on that point, that for any regent to seek to sell their bloodline would require an exceptionally debased and desperate individual, rare to the point of dubiousness.

But that raises another question...


Are there blooded families who have never lived up to their potential, who remain anonymous, or ingorantly content to be the traditional local head-family of some small backwater burg where their ancestor camp-follower* retired after the battle of Deismar? It states that it wasn't until "after" the battle that the effects became known. Does every blooded line have a history of aspiring to be Regents, in the BR sense? Could there be some "lost" lines out there?
(* With the term "camp-follower", some would be neither educated, socially significant, nor particularly motivated. The blooded prostitute, hill-billy muleskinner or scullery maid... accidents of fate.)

Scions with up to 19 bloodscore have no blood abilities, and with the current "scion level" rules, if they don't know, how would they ever? Dreams, destiny, fate aside... practically speaking, could small, minor bloodlines be scattered about the back-country?

(If so, they may not even know exactly what it is that they have. Altho' destiny "should" have a way of promoting them to their "proper" station, maybe they've been passed by somehow.)

And would they know the value, much less potential, of what lies hidden within them?

I would say that any obscure bloodlines would have gone away by now. Mainly from people considered tainted marrying unblooded commoners. Remember, the strength coes from the lowest parent, so any blooded person marrying an unblooded one would result in unblooded children. With a "tainted" bloodline and the costs of investiture it isn't likely that a peasant family, expecially one that doesn't care enough about their Bloodline to marry into other blooded families, would bother (or could afford) investing their bloodline into their children.

Actually, although there may have been thousands of Blooded people after Deismaar I would say that precious few are blooded to this day.

This is the primary issue I have with the mechanic of the strength being based on the lowest of the two parents. The second ed rules had the Derivation being of the strongest and strength being the average. Although it mentioned points, not actual strength, I can do the math in my head LOL.

With the new mechanic of the strength being based on the lowest, careful marriages have to be arranged or noone will ever rule the land again.

[Cuchulainshound]

Lowest?!

Ugh, missed that... that makes my stomach hurt. :(

[irdeggman]

I would say that any obscure bloodlines would have gone away by now. Mainly from people considered tainted marrying unblooded commoners. Remember, the strength coes from the lowest parent, so any blooded person marrying an unblooded one would result in unblooded children. With a "tainted" bloodline and the costs of investiture it isn't likely that a peasant family, expecially one that doesn't care enough about their Bloodline to marry into other blooded families, would bother (or could afford) investing their bloodline into their children.

Actually, although there may have been thousands of Blooded people after Deismaar I would say that precious few are blooded to this day. You are confusing strength and score.

This is the primary issue I have with the mechanic of the strength being based on the lowest of the two parents. The second ed rules had the Derivation being of the strongest and strength being the average. Although it mentioned points, not actual strength, I can do the math in my head LOL.

With the new mechanic of the strength being based on the lowest, careful marriages have to be arranged or noone will ever rule the land again.

Actually the Chap 2 rules are pretty much in alignment with those of the Book of Regency. The only difference being that the strenght (minor, major, great) is determined by the parent with the lowest strength {This actually helps follow what the BoR said about the watering down of bloodlines through history}.

From Chap 2


Children always share the bloodline derivation of one of their parents. This derivation is generally inherited from the parent with the strongest bloodline, although this is not always the case. The bloodline strength of the child is generally that of the parent having the weakest bloodline strength (or minor, if one of the parents is non-blooded). Powerful scions must often arrange marriages with other powerful houses to maintain the purity of their bloodlines.

Children tend to have a bloodline score that is the average of their parent's bloodline scores, but this is subject to the same variation as other inherited physical properties. Siblings may differ greatly in bloodline scores. A child's bloodline manifestations cannot usually be determined until puberty, at which time the child's latent bloodline stirs. A Bloodmark (should one run in the line of one of the parents) is the only manifestation of bloodline that is present from birth.

From Book of Regency


When a scion has a child, that child gains a bloodline with a strength, score, and derivation that reflects those of his parents.

If two scions have a child, his bloodline score is determined by averaging the scores of his parents. The child receives the bloodline strength and derivation of the parent with the highest bloodline score. So if a scion of Brenna with a g reat bloodline and a strength score of 30 has a child with a scion of Reynir who has a major bloodline of 40, the child has a bloodline of Reynir, major, 35.

Should a scion have a child with an unblooded person, the child gains the bloodline strength and derivation of his blooded parent, but only half the parent’s bloodline strength score (round up). This number results from averaging the two bloodline strength scores—one a number greater than zero, the other zero.

[ploesch]

Holy Cow, talk about reading what you want to. I read that paragraph 10 times and always glossed over the part in parenthesis. Arguably one of the more important parts.

/Hits self on forehead
/egg on my face!

[Cuchulainshound]

{This actually helps follow what the BoR said about the watering down of bloodlines through history}.

"Watering down"? How about "washing away entirely".

An averageing function would be "watering down", and over generations would still approach zero unless manipulated and inbred. Using only the lower of the two, especially where one of those two might be "zero", is extinction on the horizon.

[irdeggman]

"Watering down"? How about "washing away entirely".

An averageing function would be "watering down", and over generations would still approach zero unless manipulated and inbred. Using only the lower of the two, especially where one of those two might be "zero", is extinction on the horizon.

Read them "both" again.

The score is averaged (in both systems).

The strength (minor, major, great) is what is based on the lowest (in the BRCS) and the highest (in 2nd ed).

It seems to be a common mistake to read strength = score. In the BRCS we tried to make this distinction very clear and use the terms consistently. In 2nd ed they were at times used interchangeably - but not in this case the text was explicit on what was intended.

[RaspK_FOG]

I would actually suggest that you get rid of all parentheses in the passage: a parenthesis commonly indicates a sidenote, and thus detracts attention from what you want to mention. On the other hand, clever use of commas, dashes, semicolons and colons helps better define the meaning of the text.

For example, read the following:

Children always share the bloodline derivation of one of their parents; even though this derivation is generally inherited from the parent with the strongest bloodline, this is not always the case. The bloodline strength of the child is generally that of the parent with the weakest bloodline strength; if one of the parents is non-blooded, it is minor instead. Thus, powerful scions must often arrange marriages with other powerful houses to maintain the purity of their bloodlines.

The bloodline score of scions tends to be the average of their parents' bloodline scores, but this is subject to variation, much like other inherited physical properties: siblings may differ greatly in bloodline scores. A child's bloodline manifestations cannot usually be determined until puberty, at which time the child's latent bloodline stirs. A Bloodmark, should one run in the line of one of the parents, is the only manifestation of bloodline that is present from birth.

[irdeggman]

I would actually suggest that you get rid of all parentheses in the passage: a parenthesis commonly indicates a sidenote, and thus detracts attention from what you want to mention. On the other hand, clever use of commas, dashes, semicolons and colons helps better define the meaning of the text.

Or a list when not using colons and commas.

In this case spelling out what strength means is another means of reinforcing that it not the numeric value. As I've pointed out this is a very common error.

[RaspK_FOG]

Or a list when not using colons and commas.

In this case spelling out what strength means is another means of reinforcing that it not the numeric value. As I've pointed out this is a very common error.
Well, that too; in particular, something like this might be appropriate:


Scions are defined by the legacy of their bloodline; from history to regency and their right to rule, one's bloodline is as much a part of his nature as is his body.
Bloodlines have 3 definitive properties:
Derivation: this shows from whom of the old gods the bloodline originates; the old gods are Anduiras, Vorynn, [etc.]. Strength: this shows how powerful the blood abilities a scion may have can be, among other things; one can have a minor, major, great, or true bloodline. Score:This shows how potent his abilities may actually be, as many issues regarding regency and being a scion revolve about this numerical value.

[geeman]

At 07:22 AM 9/7/2006, Green Knight wrote:

>Moreover, I fundamentally disagree about the attitude of scions with
>regards to their bloodline. I think even a poor 4th son of a minor
>noble would hardly even contemplate such a transaction, let alon
>think of it himself. Giving up your bloodline would be like selling
>you soul - which is not something most people would. After all, the
>gods gave men souls, and scions bloodlines. Who are mortals to
>meddle in the divinely ordanied way of things...

Well, the better example (that has been noted several times) is not
the 4th son, but the aging scion on his deathbed who has nobody to
leave his legacy to and/or for whom that legacy would not be as
significant a boon as, say, a big stack of gold. There are several
scenarios for how/when a bloodline would be sold.

Anyway, people sell their souls all the time... particularly in a RPG.

Gary

[gazza666]

As far as "watering down" goes, remember that it is possible to increase one's bloodline with good rulership. Presumably it is the bloodline strength at the time of conception that is important, not whatever the historical bloodline strength was.

Granted, the rules suggest that most regents will never increase their bloodline strength, but that can be read as meaning that Cerilia has entered a stage of decline and/or decadence. PC regents (at least in my experience) tend to focus on increasing bloodline strength (when they're not too busy preparing to conquer).

[Cuchulainshound]

Read them "both" again.

The score is averaged (in both systems).

The strength (minor, major, great) is what is based on the lowest (in the BRCS) and the highest (in 2nd ed).

It seems to be a common mistake to read strength = score....
And I'm guilty of that mistake. Not that I'm confused between the two concepts (as someone new to the game might be), but something more akin to a type of dislexia, scanning and mistaking one word for a similar one.

Once one is ~clear~ on that point, and careful of the distinction, the passage is equally clear. But I wonder if the selection of those two words themselves isn't an underlying problem. I'm sure much thought went into the choice, but it's easy to forget that the average reader won't be as familiar with the terms, and two similar terms, both lingusistically similar in sound*, size and meaning, can be problematic for some learners/readers.

(* Phonemically (re "sounds"), both start with an "s" and have an "r", and only one syllable long. Altho' we don't count that as significant today, Old English would have recognized those two words as "rhyming". Alto' far from identical, they are, in fact, very similar to the ear, and the mind.

Would it be out of the question to suggest one of those terms be changed? An ability has a Score, that seems a strong connection, but the other... instead of Strength, maybe Quality? Tier? Rank?

Minor Tier Bloodlines are limitted to...
A Major Quality Bloodline...
Bloodlines of Great Rank are rare...

A score of 30 is stronger than a score of 28, and if you lose points the strength of that score drops (in one sense of the word), but altho' that has nothing to do with Strength, it has everything to do with the confusion we've seen.

[irdeggman]

And I'm guilty of that mistake. Not that I'm confused between the two concepts (as someone new to the game might be), but something more akin to a type of dislexia, scanning and mistaking one word for a similar one.

Once one is ~clear~ on that point, and careful of the distinction, the passage is equally clear. But I wonder if the selection of those two words themselves isn't an underlying problem. I'm sure much thought went into the choice, but it's easy to forget that the average reader won't be as familiar with the terms, and two similar terms, both lingusistically similar in sound*, size and meaning, can be problematic for some learners/readers.

(* Phonemically (re "sounds"), both start with an "s" and have an "r", and only one syllable long. Altho' we don't count that as significant today, Old English would have recognized those two words as "rhyming". Alto' far from identical, they are, in fact, very similar to the ear, and the mind.

Would it be out of the question to suggest one of those terms be changed? An ability has a Score, that seems a strong connection, but the other... instead of Strength, maybe Quality? Tier? Rank?


Ahh but then us old fogeys who played the "original" game would be frustrated since the terms originated there.;)

[Cuchulainshound]

(Same arguement could be made for 2nd ed to 3rd, but that didn't seem to slow you down.)
:p :D

If you want to patch the BRCS to market it to a new generation of players, if you want to make it "better", then you gotta assume that some radical changes need to be made . Scion Templates to Levels was one. Maybe specifics in language is another.

[RaspK_FOG]

IF we HAD to change the wording, I believe that bloodline potency is best.

[geeman]

At 06:23 PM 9/8/2006, you wrote:

>IF we HAD to change the wording, I believe that bloodline potency is best.

Maybe we should go MORE confusing rather than less....

Bloodline Strength could be change to "Bloodline"
Bloodline Score could be "Bloodiness"
Bloodline Derivation could be "Blood of"

...or more clinical:

Bloodline Strength could be "Blood Pressure"
Bloodline Score could be "Blood Count"
Bloodline Derivation could be "Blood Type"

...or more vulgar:

Bloodline Strength could be "Bloody Bastard"
Bloodline Score could be "Bloody Hell"
Bloodline Derivation could be "What are You Bloody Talking About?"

I`d suggest color coding, but should any of the really be given a
color other than red?

Bloody Gary

[irdeggman]

I`d suggest color coding, but should any of the really be given a
color other than red?

Bloody Gary

We could also use blue.

[Cuchulainshound]

>IF we HAD to change the wording, I believe that bloodline potency is best.

Maybe we should go MORE confusing rather than less....
This from a moderator? Is that supposed to help?

I've studied Linguistics, and within that language acquisition, phonemic distinction, and studies of aliterative confusion (how key words with the same sounds can be difficult to follow). I'm sorry if my suggestions are over your head, or beneath your consideration.

(Not that it's my fault, but it is a shame, either way.)

[geeman]

At 08:53 PM 9/8/2006, irdeggman wrote:

>>I`d suggest color coding, but should any of the really be given a
>>color other than red?
>
>We could also use blue.

Why didn`t I think of that?

I suppose we could also go with things like Veins, Valves and Ventricles.

At 09:48 PM 9/8/2006, Cuchulainshound wrote:

>>Maybe we should go MORE confusing rather than less....
>
>This from a moderator? Is that supposed to help?

There, their, they`re. It was just a joke (and not even directed at
anyone in particular....) Take `er easy.

>I`ve studied Linguistics, and within that language acquisition,
>phonemic distinction, and studies of aliterative confusion (how key
>words with the same sounds can be difficult to follow). I`m sorry
>if my suggestions are over your head, or beneath your consideration.

Ah, you just can`t lick a cunning linguist. It`ll be nice to have
someone who knows what the fricative he`s talking about `round
here. Be careful waving your diction around, though. I wouldn`t
expect anyone to kiss your aspirate. (See, that was more in your direction.)

Just for everyone`s consideration, the use of "Bloodline Strength" to
denote tainted, minor, etc., "Bloodline Score" for the numerical
value and "Bloodline Derivation" for which god the powers come from
is, itself, a standardization from the original BR materials. In the
2e texts they would sometimes just say "bloodline" and you had to get
from the context what they were driving at, and the word "strength"
would from time to time appear to have been used for either bloodline
strength or bloodline score. Some years ago BR fans started being
careful about using "Strength, Score and Derivation" to denote the
particular characteristics of the bloodline system.

But if bloodline score and bloodline strength are just too
onomatopoeically parallel in text form (or phonetically, if that`s a
concern) I would suggest "bloodline strength" and "bloodline power"
or "bloodline level" as being the most easily read.

Gary, Garry, Garee

P.S. I debated sending this along, but it was too fun to write not to.

[irdeggman]

There is also a glossary in the back of the BRCS-playtest.



Bloodline derivation: The deity who was the original source of the divine power that is a blooded scion's birthright.

Bloodline ability score: Also referred to as the bloodline score. This is a new ability score specific to the BIRTHRIGHT campaign setting. Unlike the standard six ability scores, only blooded scion's have a bloodline ability score. A character's bloodline score determines the number of bloodline abilities that a scion manifests and the amount of regency points that they may collect and store.

Bloodline strength: The relative power of a scion’s bloodline: minor, major, great, or true. A scion’s bloodline strength (in conjunction with their bloodline score) determines the power of their bloodline abilities. A character's bloodline strength is represented by the applicable scion template.


Now it hasn't been updated to the new uses in Chap 2. But if you drop "ability" out of bloodline ability score and the 2nd and 3rd sentences which refer to treating it like an actual ability score it works.

I almost always look for a glossary when I come a cross a word that I don't know.

Regardless of what "words" are chosen the "definition" of them will appear in the glossary - where it belongs.

[Cuchulainshound]

Not the point. Glossaries and clear definitions are useless if the words themselves keep getting confused in people's minds. And by your own admission and endless support comments, they do.

I thought we were here to improve the material in all aspects, and not be slaves to previous concepts that didn't work optimally. Choice of game terms should be one of those considerations, I'd think.


Gary, Garry, Garee

P.S. I debated sending this along, but it was too fun to write not to.
Poking fun is always a good test of objectivity, no prob by me.

I have no problem with folk disagreeing with me- hell, I hope someone does, or there isn't enough thought going into it.

No one likes being dismissed. If I unloaded... well, tough.

("cunning linguist"- that one never gets old. And when a cunning linguist becomes enclitic... someone usually gets slapped. Or lucky.)

[RaspK_FOG]

("cunning linguist"- that one never gets old. And when a cunning linguist becomes enclitic... someone usually gets slapped. Or lucky.)
Now who's pulling the legs around here? :p

And, no, geeman and irdeggman are both wrong, as all people with a bloodline have blue blood by default. :D

Seriously, now, that's why I mentioned: "IF we HAD;" in other words, should people come around and say: "You know, strength and score can actually be quite confusing, so we want something different than these two," an idea would be to use potency instead of strength.

[Birthright-L]

>
>
> ...or more clinical:
>
> Bloodline Strength could be "Blood Pressure"
> Bloodline Score could be "Blood Count"
> Bloodline Derivation could be "Blood Type"
>
>
Is it bad that I really like these? Should I have myself checked out? Or
checked in?

[geeman]

At 09:06 PM 9/9/2006, RaspK_FOG wrote:

>And, no, geeman and irdeggman are both wrong, as all people with a
>bloodline have blue blood by default. :D

Well, then I think we`ve got it covered. Bloodline Score can be red
(as in strong, red-blooded...) Bloodline Strength blue (as in the
strength of their bloodline coming from ancestors) while bloodline
derivation remains the standard black. Ipso-factor, pass the color
toner cartridge.

>Seriously, now, that`s why I mentioned: "IF we HAD;" in other words,
>should people come around and say: "You know, strength and score can
>actually be quite confusing, so we want something different than
>these two," an idea would be to use potency instead of strength.

At 11:28 PM 9/9/2006, Lord Rahvin wrote:

>>Bloodline Strength could be "Blood Pressure"
>>Bloodline Score could be "Blood Count"
>>Bloodline Derivation could be "Blood Type"
>
>Is it bad that I really like these? Should I have myself checked
>out? Or checked in?

Just don`t try to explain the concept to the nurse with the
hypodermic needle next time you donate blood. They`ll flag your file.

Gary

[RaspK_FOG]

Just don`t try to explain the concept to the nurse with the
hypodermic needle next time you donate blood. They`ll flag your file.

Gary
:D Good thing you mentioned that, for I am about to donate blood in a couple of days. *rofl*

[geeman]

At 09:45 AM 9/10/2006, RaspK_FOG wrote:

>>Just don`t try to explain the concept to the nurse with the
>>hypodermic needle next time you donate blood. They`ll flag your file.
>
>:D Good thing you mentioned that, for I am about to donate blood in
>a couple of days. *rofl*

The last time I gave blood I actually looked around the room at all
the supine people with tubes running out of them and those who were
eating their complementary cookies and I thought, "Wow, look at all
the potential awnsheghlien in this room...." Some people carry their
totem right their on their faces, so you could see how this one would
turn into a macabre, ghostly white skeletor creature with huge claws,
that one would be some monstrous blob who enveloped his victims,
while another was clearly some sort of freakish crabman. The nurses,
of course, were slave/disciples of some epic villain draining the
lifeblood of the populace for the components to call forth the
reincarnation of Azrai from the Lake of Blood. I kept the idea mum, though.

Got to get to work on the Birthright D20 Modern sourcebook....

Gary

[huehar]

I know this is an old post but maybe useful for somebody who is searching answer:
In our campaign (running already for 3 years) it is allowed to buy bloodline: price is 1GB/score. It is very useful when we want to make a vassal/regent from an unblooded NPC follower.
Of course as we play this campaign since soooo long we already work with 3-8 NPC/PC. :-) The original PCs are going adventuring only rarely because they are busy in domain-buildings and longterm plans. Usually one of our NPCs adventuring and gaining XP instead of us. So we can enjoy "epic" political game and also simple adventures with the thrill of the beginners. :-)
Have a nice game for everyone!

[nickgreyden]

I, for one, welcome the necro because this has been very interesting to read!

[AndrewTall]

In my mind the time when thread necro is wrong, is when you are commenting (particularly negatively) about an older post and the other person isn't around to defend themselves - or when the topic is obsolete, which isn't very likely on br.net.

selling bloodlines is an interesting one.

I can well see wealthy merchants, adventurers, etc marrying into a bloodline, which is effectively buying a bloodline for their children).

The blatant 'filthy lucre' approach is in my mind one that would be seen as socially repugnant however, the clergy doing the investiture ceremony are, after all, being asked to transfer the essence of a god (possibly their own god's precurser) which has major theological implications, while bloodlines = right to rule is probably a social more that came to dominate very early on as the blooded families displaced non-blooded nobles.

But of course there are always corrupt clergy and desperate nobles down on their luck and perhaps ignorant of just how intrinsic to their being the spark of godhood running in their veins is.

I played with the idea of a noble who sold their bloodline when I wrote PS Dhoesone, the idea being that Marcus Hollowman sold his bloodline while down on his luck and was then driven mad by the gnawing absence in his soul.