Starting Campaigns

[Aren Yashar]

It has been a long time since I've tried to DM anything, and I was wondering if there was any advice that you could offer. I'm thinking of starting a BR campaign, using the standard setting, with a very small group of players (My area is just not a good one for attracting gamers, or I am just not connected enough with my fellow gamers to get a healthy group going).

Any ideas on how to start the group off would be nice. I'm sure at least one will want to become ruler of a province (to start with). How does she gain control of it from her predecessor? I'm scratching my head on this one...there is only so much DM manipulation that one can employ before realism is stretched out of shape. Honestly, how many riots and overthrows can a place take over a short time? And if more than one player wants to control land how messed up can a realm in general get during a "Time of Troubles" such as this...but then that might be a way to go about it. Three provinces fall to new rulers, and the evil forces (for want of a better term) take advantage of this fact and start an invasion...

Ok, maybe I'm just looking for a sounding board here, but I would still like to hear any ideas that would help me get things rolling and keep them going. I'm not looking to railroad my players here, but an idea of a line they could go down in the course of gameplay would be helpful...even if said timeline is probably going to be ripped apart as soon as the players run their own way through the campaign.

Thank you for reading, and thank you in advance for your suggestions.

[gazza666]

You could just start off the campaign with the PC already in charge. Perhaps they are the heir of the former ruler, for example.

Short of that... well, really, the only way to take control of a province other than to inherit it is to conquer it somehow. That makes it more of a mid-high level goal, usually.

[ConjurerDragon]

Aren Yashar schrieb:
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
> http://www.birthright.net/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=3097
> Aren Yashar wrote:
> ...
> Any ideas on how to start the group off would be nice. I`m sure at least one will want to become ruler of a province (to start with). How does she gain control of it from her predecessor? I`m scratching my head on this one...there is only so much DM manipulation that one can employ before realism is stretched out of shape. Honestly, how many riots and overthrows can a place take over a short time? And if more than one player wants to control land how messed up can a realm in general get during a "Time of Troubles" such as this...but then that might be a way to go about it. Three provinces fall to new rulers, and the evil forces (for want of a better term) take advantage of this fact and start an invasion...
>
> Ok, maybe I`m just looking for a sounding board here, but I would still like to hear any ideas that would help me get things rolling and keep them going. I`m not looking to railroad my players here, but an idea of a line they could go down in the course of gameplay would be helpful...even if said timeline is probably going to be ripped apart as soon as the players run their own way through the campaign.
Without riots and overthrows? Many.

The best way to become ruler of a province would depend on the character
of your player who wants to become a landed regent. A sneaky character
might enjoy assasinating the regent and his heirs - accidents naturally
if he is sneaky AND skilled - while playing his faithful lieutenant
who eventually when the land runs out of heirs has to take up the burden
to rule himself (e.g. Guilder Kalien).

A lawful good Paladin might get a province as reward or as part of a
duty from a higher ranking noble, e.g. Diemeds ruler dies and the lawful
heir is a weakblooded aristocrat only able to weave around all day with
a perfumed handkerchief - but he is the legal heir and so will rule. He
needs of course someone who takes care of the provinces at his border
where some less civilized and more warriorlike rulers are needed to
maintain control and defend the land and to deal with those unbathed
peasants that need to pay taxes to allow the ruler of Diemed to enjoy
another banket.

[ThatSeanGuy]

A good book for building your own kingdom is "King of the Giantdowns"-while its location specific, obviously, the techniques and the level of effort required could easily be applied to "wasteland" regions of the rest of the setting, like the Five Peaks, the Tarvan Wastes, or about half of Vosgaard.

It also provided a good solution for getting some RP to go from Scion to Regent-there was a magic item you could find that gave you a one time boost of 10 RP, regent-hood or no regent-hood. That's at least enough to get a holding up to 1, in which case you can start properly accumulating RP and start working on TAKING OVER THE WORLD-or, ah, province.

The various setting-books have a lot of conflicts in them; personaly, I'd suguest picking with region of Cerilia you want to play in, first, and taking a look at what conflicts and story hooks the setting's already provided for you. Make a quick list to keep track of them, and decide how you want to work your PCs into the area politics. Even if the regency-type stuff is largely in the background, any political game runs smoother if you decide who the area's players are, how they interact with eachother, and otherwise keep track of the NPCs. You never know when a PC is going to crash through your current plot and slam right into something else, so keeping careful track of the region's sociopolitical goings on helps you, as the DM, react more fluidly. Naturaly even.

If you do this right, your PCs will think it was all part of your sinister master plan, which is one of the little cosmic rewards of DMing. All good sinister master plans are fifty percent improvisational acting, twenty percent bullshitting, fifteen percent clever use of your setting notes, ten percent filthy lies, and five percent actual planning.

[maskmaker]

I'm about to run my first D&D campaign, and my first Birthright campaign all run into one. The idea I have to get my players (in the first session), into a position of power is quite simple.

Suris Enlien is stepping down from the Archpriest's throne.

The Church of the Celestial Spell is divided between many candidates.

So she makes a decree that the person to locate and retrieve the Tome of Brun Szareh (my own invention), giving it into her hands, will have shown that they are blessed by Ruornil and are deserving of the throne.

Making a decree like this fuel the roleplay is good, because already I know that the PCs will have a lot of enemies. Mercenaries, most paid for by Guilder Kalien are trying to find the Tome as well. So are various cronies hired by Heirl Diem. Other factions in Medoere are seeking it, as are various other nations' cronies.

Of course, it remains to be seen how well this whole idea will go down with the group, but if it goes badly, I'll let you know. :) Plus, if you're DMing, its your world, and if you have nice, understanding players they'll go along with it. I know my friends will during the game. Then, after, they'll say (because at least two have DMed before), "You know, you COULD have just done this, instead of leading us around by our noses the WHOLE time."

But yeah. Use decrees, use "nasty plague kills the ruling regent and his house", use "half the realm rebels", use "you are the heir of blahblah the lord of all blahblahs"... most of the Player's Secrets books assume you are the heir of the regent, and it all runs smoothly from that.

Plus, if any of the players in game act up, drop an ACME anvil on their head.

~Ol

[Cuchulainshound]

BR can be a daunting task- don't underestimate it. And, as such, don't try to add too much detail- feel free to "fake" the neighbors, at least until they become central to the storyline. "There are some Guild battles to the south, trade routes destroyed, and an out-of-work mercenary group went rogue to the north and was crushed"... if it's not of importance to the PC's (except for flavour), there's no reason the details of Gold and Regency and etc of far-off holdings should be of importance to you as GM. Save your time/energy for the central plotlines.

OK, that said, it all depends on your group, and what sort of story you want to tell/they like to tell!

Do they tend towards predatory behavior, grab what's not nailed down and stomp on anything smaller than themselves for practice? Then an assassination/coup may be just the ticket. Maybe they don't know about "bloodlines", but as assassins they become blooded by accident? There's an open door for a fertile evil genius!

Do they enjoy being the hero, against the odds, noble and seeking the next wrong to right? Then maybe an NPC committed that same coup I mentioned, and it's up to them to restore order.

Do they enjoy surprises and mystery? Maybe they aren't blooded at all, or just don't realize they are, and either a chance meeting with a dying Scion ("...Poison, I'm dying- you must stab me through the heart, and take my bloodline... Swear to me..."), or a search for the "last surviving heir" brings them into a world they never expected.

Depending how independant they are, might be an idea to give them a liege lord, either leniant, tight-reined or dottering/distracted, so that they 1) have a mentor, B) have a powerful ally, and iii) you have a hammer to hit them with if you need it. Or, set them loose as a fish in a pond of like-sized fish, with a few bigger around - Guilds and Temples can be good for this, as they tend to be "below the radar" of landed politics.

You also have to decide if they ALL are going to be Scions, or just one (or two, a land/law pair?), or what? Maybe the goal is to get everyone blooded via Bloodtheft, so a junta of Land/Temple/Guild/Source regents, who know and trust each other (!), can sweep all before them, marching shoulder to shoulder once they're all in place.

Or, they each start out separately, perhaps young successors after a plague, and location throws them together.

Maybe the story is one of inevitable self-sacrifice, as the Regents must destroy an Anshweigh (sp?), and risk the Taint of Azrai to save their lands.

The variables of plot and players are too many to predict- no need to feel you have to write the ending yet. The best you can do is set up a rich environment given the known tendencies/playstyle/preference of yourself and your group, and let the imaginations run with it.

[hirumatogeru]

Personally I like having the PC's around 6th level before they take up the mantle of regent. I have found its a bit easier to justify, especially if the new regent is of a new bloodline or ancestry.

Plus that gives the DM 6 full levels of non-regent adventures to get them prepared. Then, instead of just telling the player at 1st level, "these people don't like you, and these people do" they will have already met these groups, and developed their own relationships themselves.

Plus its more fun to throw a couple good old dungeon crawls in at the beginning, or a rampaging monster, to get your group's energy up and get them a reputation.

[ThatSeanGuy]

That's a good idea. They are supposed to be hero-kings, after all, and while its kind of hard to do, I think you get the best experience from Birthright by not neglecting the "hero" for the "king" or the "king" for the "hero". Its a tricky balance, and DMing's already a big job, but the payoff, I think, is worth it.

[Aren Yashar]

Great, now my players whom have gotten a date set up for me to run the first session of BR have reversed themselves and have chosen to opt for 2nd edition rules after all...grr.

I don't suppose anyone has a TSR 2nd edition AD&D Character Record Sheet in PDF form? Or even a scan of one as an image file? I'm not looking for one someone has whipped up, but rather the original TSR one, if it still exists out there.

Any ideas where I can find it?

- The Eternally Frustrated DM

[Cuchulainshound]

If you want 3rd, lay down the law! YOU are the GM- start acting like it! Who's in charge here, anyway? (sheesh!)
:cool:

[gazza666]

A DM who insists on running games that his players dislike will find himself short of players.

[Cuchulainshound]

True. But no less true iis that a GM who runs something he isn't excited about is more likely to lose interest. AND a GM who lets his players coerce him into something he'd rather not do is not starting off on a good foot.

But the smiley implied I was half-kidding. \

If only half. :rolleyes:

[gazza666]

You're right of course, but I didn't get the impression that the DM was that bothered about running with 2nd edition rules - more than his annoyance was from changing their minds.

[ploesch]

.....
I don't suppose anyone has a TSR 2nd edition AD&D Character Record Sheet in PDF form? Or even a scan of one as an image file? I'm not looking for one someone has whipped up, but rather the original TSR one, if it still exists out there.
.....
I don't think there was one. I have the original boxed set, and all the source books, and I don't remember ever seeing one. My BCS boxed set is in near mint condition, I'm pretty anal about my gaming stuff, so I am confident all the materials are there, and no character sheet.

I will attach the sheets I made. Feel free to use them, I won't say they are perfect, and definetely not as pretty as the 3.5 one from this site. They are functional though. I don'tseem to have a BR specific Character Sheet, sorry.

I have a new regent kit I made also, if interested, PM me. My players have found it very useful.

[Mantyluoto]

Cheat play 3rd edition D&D with 2nd edition BR. it does work!

[Aren Yashar]

If you want 3rd, lay down the law! YOU are the GM- start acting like it! Who's in charge here, anyway? (sheesh!)
:cool:

I wanted 2nd in the first place, so I wouldn't have to read up on the conversion to 3.5. They wanted to keep to 3.5 because they are most familiar with that system. But when they saw me poring through pdfs to learn the conversion, they changed their minds on me. :(

[Aren Yashar]

I don't think there was one. I have the original boxed set, and all the source books, and I don't remember ever seeing one. My BCS boxed set is in near mint condition, I'm pretty anal about my gaming stuff, so I am confident all the materials are there, and no character sheet.

pg 11 AD&D 2nd edition PHB - "You will need some sort of character record. TSR publishes character record sheets that are quite handy and easy to use..."

I was wondering if anyone had any of these laying around...I know I could just mkae up a sheet of my own, but I would like to see what TSR had printed up for 2nd. The WotC website (who took over TSR) doesn't keep much on hand for 2nd, so no joy there.

[Mantyluoto]

http://www.unc.edu/~murphy/mad_irishman/ i think is a good resource for sheets (i think its the right addy!!)

Edited...... wrong addy. try it again now

[Aren Yashar]

As I said, I am looking for the original TSR AD&D second edition sheet. While that website is interesting, it doesn't exactly fill what I'm looking for. Thanks for the URL anyway, there are some things in there that I want to take a closer look at later anyway. :)

[ploesch]

Even if anyone had original sheets, they are copyright protected, and we don't wanna get on the bad side of WOTC. They may say OK to photocopy for personal use, but posting a PDF or Scan of one on a public forum would not be personal use. ;)

Seriously, the official sheets were junk, which is why nearly everyone made their own. They were particularly useless for Birthright.

[Cuchulainshound]

I wanted 2nd in the first place, so I wouldn't have to read up on the conversion to 3.5. They wanted to keep to 3.5 because they are most familiar with that system. But when they saw me poring through pdfs to learn the conversion, they changed their minds on me. :(
Well, at least they're considerate, even if their timing is lousy.

Honestly, ploesch is right- of all the games I've been in, on-line and off, the only
workable sheets I've seen are custom built. The TSR ones suffer from the worst era of TSR graphic designers who clearly were NOT gamers.

[Aren Yashar]

Even if anyone had original sheets, they are copyright protected, and we don't wanna get on the bad side of WOTC. They may say OK to photocopy for personal use, but posting a PDF or Scan of one on a public forum would not be personal use. ;)

Seriously, the official sheets were junk, which is why nearly everyone made their own. They were particularly useless for Birthright.

After a certain amount of time, doesn't copyrighted material fall into the public domain? Birthright is out of print, for heaven's sake, and has been for a long time. Would TSR *ahem* WotC really care if something like an admittedly crappy character record sheet fell into a post or pm? I'm willing to bet it was publicly posted on the internet at one time, like the current 3.5 character sheet out of the PHB is.

Besides, I'm just curious what they looked like. I do have quite a bit of hard and soft cover 2nd edition AD&D material, but none of the original character sheets are included in what I have. Oh well...

[Sorontar]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads for AD&D downloads fully approved by WotC. An NPC charsheet is listed along with some Birthright stuff.

[Aren Yashar]

Already been there...

[irdeggman]

After a certain amount of time, doesn't copyrighted material fall into the public domain? Birthright is out of print, for heaven's sake, and has been for a long time. Would TSR *ahem* WotC really care if something like an admittedly crappy character record sheet fell into a post or pm? I'm willing to bet it was publicly posted on the internet at one time, like the current 3.5 character sheet out of the PHB is.


IP doesn't though.

[DanMcSorley]

On 9/5/06, Aren Yashar <brnetboard@birthright.net> wrote:
> After a certain amount of time, doesn`t copyrighted material fall into the public domain?
> Birthright is out of print, for heaven`s sake, and has been for a long time.

Yes. Copyrighted works enter the public domain 95 years after publication.

You`re not asking for Birthright material anyway, you`re asking for
general AD&D material. You might have better luck asking at a forum
dedicated to older versions of D&D, like dragonsfoot.

Actually, they have character sheets posted there that might work for you:
http://www.dragonsfoot.org/cs/index.shtml#CS2E32

--
Daniel McSorley

[Cuchulainshound]

Copyright law is as convoluted as any badly written rules any of us have every run across. Anyone who has had personal experience with it (voluntarily or no), will tell you that there are many "if's" and "but's" and exceptions, and that once lawyers get hold of it, the grey area is far greater than the black and white.

Unless it's completely trivial, don't make assumptions- and don't believe anyone but a paid lawyer. (Anyone who's not "paid" to be your lawyer, is just playing one.) ;)


You`re not asking for Birthright material anyway, you`re asking for general AD&D material.
Actually, he is. There were TSR BR character sheets sold at one time- as ugly and useless as anyone can imagine, but dedicated to BR characters.

Now, considering the fact that TSR is long out of bussiness, BR is long out of print and WotC long ago chose to drop the BR line, I think that even the most rabid lawyer could find something better to do than pursue that particular breach of copyright- altho' some do it as a matter of principle and policy, the "slippery slope" philosophy.

Look around on other boards- and good luck. (You might need it!)