help with a Baruk Azik campain

[marcum uth mather]

So I will hopefully be starting a campaign were the central story will revolve around a orog siege of Baruk Azik. But I was thinking, how they would even do it. In other games, the dwarves have underground farms, which I assume will carry over into this game ( woo delicious cave mold, how I love thee) so the dwarves could simply close up shop. Any incite that could help me in a mass combat scenario would be great. Thanks in advantage. the cry Havok ruled dont seem to aply when there are no walls to bash in, because the walls are half mile thick moutain.

[DanMcSorley]

On 8/29/06, marcum uth mather <brnetboard@birthright.net> wrote:
> marcum uth mather wrote:
> So I will hopefully be starting a campaign were the central story will revolve around a orog
> siege of Baruk Azik. But I was thinking, how they would even do it. In other games, the
> dwarves have underground farms, which I assume will carry over into this game ( woo
> delicious cave mold, how I love thee) so the dwarves could simply close up shop.
> Any incite that could help me in a mass combat scenario would be great. Thanks
> in advantage. the cry Havok ruled dont seem to aply when there are no walls to
> bash in, because the walls are half mile thick moutain.

Are you asking for advice on how to bring about a pitched battle? Or
just general campaign advice?

In general, no, the dwarves probably cannot just close up shop. There
are several dwarven stronghold/cities spread throughout the kingdom.
They need to stay in communication somehow, or any advantage they have
in numbers is lost.

Any given dwarven stronghold probably is not entirely self-sufficient.
The mines they use for raw materials, the fields in which they grow
surface crops, the villages they have built on the surface to tend
goats or sheep or fishing outposts, and many other things are not
contained within a stronghold.

Additionally, each dwarven stronghold probably specializes in some
product- one produces luxury goods for trade to the outside, one makes
pottery and other ceramics, one houses many smiths. This will tend to
happen because specialization makes sense economically- accumulate
talent of a certain type in a small area, and they`ll do better than a
similar number of people spread throughout the kingdom. These cities
need each other, that`s why they are a kingdom.

It`s possible that the dwarves have subterranean roads that securely
link all their cities. It`s not likely, though. A subterranean road
is much more effort than a surface road. They will tend to flood,
since they`re probably below the water table of the region. They
might cave in, and then you`re stuck going on the surface anyway. The
whole road would be succeptible to infiltration, because it`s a long,
unguarded tunnel.

All these factors will tend to force the dwarves to not abandon their
surface. So, if the orogs are on the surface, battle is inevitable.

Additionally, orogs should be masters of mining and sapping. Even if
the dwarves are able to seal themselves into their strongholds, the
orogs will besiege those strongholds one at a time and mine their way
in to get at the dwarves. There may not be a massive, flat-field,
maneuver battle, but there will definitely be desperate sorties from
hidden gates, mining and counter-mining by the orogs and dwarves,
tunnel to tunnel battles once the orogs break in, stealthy missions to
notify nearby strongholds that your city is under siege, and hard
marches by doughty warriors to break that siege with axe and pike.

Have fun!

--
Daniel McSorley

[ploesch]

Great advice Dan, I can't add anymore, that was everything I would have suggested.

[kgauck]

I too suppose that the dwarves cannot cut themselves off indefinatly. They must rely on surface sources of food and communication. This serves two purposes. First, it allows me to employ normal understandings of how the world works. Alternate explanations have to be well thought out to be coherent and sensible so that I don't accidentaly build absurd or game busting situations into the game. All this effort might be worth while, but for reason #2. This second reason is that a dwarven realm is only fun to play if the other realms can inflict harm on you. If you are invulnerable, because you have these cool resources like unlimited underground food, and impenetrable defenses, then there is no risk, and little fun. I'll grant the dwarves some food from fungus and other underground sources, but this is a mere augmentation of the stocks taken in every year from the surface. I'll grant the dwarven character well suited to managing large granary systems, so a supply of food is stored that is well beyond what a human might stock in a castle. I'll grant the defences of the dwarves mountainous, briliantly erected, and dug deep into the mountains. However, if its never necessary for the dwarves to fight to break a siege, defend a fortification, or harrass an enemy, then the realm holds little challenge.

The way I structured the realm, when I had players in Baruk-Azhik, was that it was so pressed upon by enemies, especially the orogs, that all parts of society, temples, guilds, law, and land, had to cooperate to keep the walls seccure and the threat at bay. Far from being invulnerable, the realm was threatened to the breaking point. This is hardly an original interpretation, the PS paints the same kind of picture.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

[akalars]

If they have underground roads, and are self sufficent, then what about letting the attacker get in to the caves? They could breach a gate, dig down to where they know a road is. This could be alot of fun as this would me major undertakings by the attacker that the defender would se comming but not be able to stop unless they are willing to leave their caves.

A bligth land might ruin enough of this seasons crops that they are forced to the surface to gather emergancy food supplies.

The illojal dwarf that opens the front gate for a chest of gold and a few beers. Or maybe the enemy has his family...

[Green Knight]

Why not do away with the all-underground dwarves? Let them have sheep and goats in the mountain valleys. Let them relay on trade with the outside world much many of the things they need.

Then I always disliked the throught that dwarves live in the dark, eating fungi and drinking fermented fungi-juice :D

[cutenfluffy]

Another thought, based off the existing mechanics. Mountain terrain normally is capped to a province level of 3, but dwarves can get it to 7. That implies that underground farming can support a province level of 4 or less. Over that, the dwarves need to grow food upon the surface.

However, given one would suspect that surface grown food would be easier to manage (not having to carve out underground tiered caverns), you might say dwarvern realms relying only upon underground farming for province level 4 or lower only generate half cash. IE, underground farming supplements surface grown foods, and it usually is only used when populations reach province level 4 and over.

[gazza666]

That logic isn't necessarily correct. Elves can get forests higher than humans; I doubt that means that they live partly underground. ;)

I think dwarves are just supposed to be better at exploiting mountain terrain, rather than necessarily implying that they live partly underground.

[Lee]

In a message dated 8/30/06 5:33:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET writes:

<< cutenfluffy wrote:
Another thought, based off the existing mechanics. Mountain terrain
normally is capped to a province level of 3, but dwarves can get it to 7. That
implies that underground farming can support a province level of 4 or less. Over
that, the dwarves need to grow food upon the surface.

However, given one would suspect that surface grown food would be easier to
manage (not having to carve out underground tiered caverns), you might say
dwarvern realms relying only upon underground farming for province level 4 or
lower only generate half cash. IE, underground farming supplements surface grown
foods, and it usually is only used when populations reach province level 4
and over. >>

We need to ask at the same time, what about orogs? It is my
understanding that they, also, are full-time (or at least part-time) underground dwellers
in BR. I`m in favor of granting them similar bennies, too.

Lee.

[cutenfluffy]

That logic isn't necessarily correct. Elves can get forests higher than humans; I doubt that means that they live partly underground. ;)

I think dwarves are just supposed to be better at exploiting mountain terrain, rather than necessarily implying that they live partly underground.
Whether they live underground isn't at issue (the assumption is yes they do to some extent). To what degree is where the dispute arises, and this because we want to know how well an invader can effectively beseige dwarvern provinces.

[cutenfluffy]

We need to ask at the same time, what about orogs? It is my understanding that they, also, are full-time (or at least part-time) underground dwellers in BR. I`m in favor of granting them similar bennies, too.

Lee.
No issue here to that idea. If it ever comes up in my game I likely would do the same.

[kgauck]

In both the Baruk-Azhik PS and the Legends of the Hero-Kings, its pretty clear that the orogs live even further underground than the dwarves do, attacking them from below. The dwarves can interact on the surface during daylight without penalties, the orogs cannot.

If Orogs were to besiege something in Baruk-Azhik, whether a fortress or an entire province (no realm is easily besiged in entirety), most likely, they would surround the place in three dimensions to cut the dwarves off, and after they could expect effects from privation (which can be pretty severe), they would launch an attack.

It sounds to me from the original description that this combat will be resolved (at least one place at a time) with PC's as adventure situations, rather than by just falling back on large scale abstract rules (which are great for producing results somewhere else, but are substantially inferior to gaming a situation out with PC's in the front lines).

[marcum uth mather]

edited, wow i cant spell at 3 in the morning.

The other part of my campaign is the orogs own the mountains in the chimaeras down to the province of salviene. No im not giving them law, just using it as the source of the under vaults the orogs use. ( o and by the way why are the orogs so damn tall? for a race that dwells under the ground they are WHAY to tall IMO)
so any way the counsel that runs the Chimerion for the Chimera will use mercenaries to stop the dwarves from entering, and may even strike back at Baruk. But what do you guys think they should find. For those of you who play WOW I do like the lay out of the dwarves lands, with their bunkers every were and tunnels leading from area too area. But are cerilia dwarves as above ground as their warcraft cousins? And leaving mass combat rules aside could a none tunneling armies of humans even have a hope of trying to strike at the dwarves?