Poll: Would Medoere attack a nation attacking Diemed JUST to grab some land?

[Mikal]

Hi there, have a theoretical question. Say that Diemed was split in half by rebellion. The rebellious forces eventually force a peace and make a nation in Biliene, Ciliene, and Aerele. Say that this new nation eventually goes to war and is able to attack Diemed again, sending most of its forces into the three remaining Diemedian provinces. Would the LG nation of Medoere, with its LG ruler, take this opportunity to cheer on the people attacking the nation which was always close at war with them, attack this nation to steal a crappy province, stay out of it, or provide aid to the rebellious nation? Poll options and opinions wanted :)

[dalor]

Only my opinion:

Historically in even the real world, nations that
denounce aggression will still take part in it. Just
because Medeore is ruled by a Lawful Good
person...well, that makes it even MORE likely to me
that they would attack.

Being a Theocracy, perhaps the ruler would think it
their divine obligation to attack so that more people
could be "enlightened" or what have you (i.e. Islamic
empire that sprang from the deserts).

Removing a potential threat would give even more
reason to attack...if just to set up a new regime more
friendly to your own nation (i.e. U.S. invasions of
Afghanistan and Iraq).

An attack to simply gain territory is very likely also
(i.e. Mexican-American War).

Nations, no matter their "true belief" are prone to
prey upon neighbors that have one of three things (or
all three): resources (such as arable land, metals,
etc.), opposing belief (different form of government,
religion and etc.) or a weaker military. Nations like
to flex their pride...don`t care what nation it is.
Find me a country with the ability to make war on its
neighbors that hasn`t done so in some fashion and I`ll
gladly write a book on that country...and promptly eat
it.


Anthony Edwards

--- Mikal <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:

> Hi there, have a theoretical question. Say that
> Diemed was split in half by rebellion. The
> rebellious forces eventually force a peace and make
> a nation in Biliene, Ciliene, and Aerele. Say that
> this new nation eventually goes to war and is able
> to attack Diemed again, sending most of its forces
> into the three remaining Diemedian provinces. Would
> the LG nation of Medoere, with its LG ruler, take
> this opportunity to cheer on the people attacking
> the nation which was always close at war with them,
> attack this nation to steal a crappy province, stay
> out of it, or provide aid to the rebellious nation?
> Poll options and opinions wanted :)

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[cvgawde]

I'm not sure if Medoere would launch an attack against Diemed. Their nation is still relatively new and while they've consolidated their defenses the High Priestess Enlien would need to secure her own territories. I think we'd have to look at some factors:

- What is Guilder Kalien's stance on this? Is he allied with Diemed? He does, after all, almost completely control Caerwil. Even if he's neutral he may take the opportunity of Enlien's commitment to war to seize control of Caerwil.

- Is the IOT involved in this conflict? Chances are both Dieman factions would be loyal to the church and it would remain neutral, however this temple would NEVER allow the Ruornilites control over Haelyn's core lands.

- Is Avanil supporting Diemed? Avanil and Diemed are staunch allies, in fact some of Moere is held by Prince Avan and his forces occupy some border cities. If Diemed can garner even economic support from Avanil it could muster and maintain the armies to win on two fronts.

- Who is supporting the rebel provinces? If they stand alone their resources will rapidly dwindle in the face of Dieman military might. If Baron Diem has law holdings or if the IOT is aiding him it wouldn't take much to turn the people on the rebellion.

Enlien seems to me to be a thoughtful and catious ruler, still new to the throne and her fledgling nation. I would think that it is doubtful she'd act brashly and certainly wouldn't attack Diemed unless guaranteed a victory (or at least a stalemate). Sharing a border with the Spiderfell, a ruler cannot carelessly commit soldiers to a prolonged conflict.

[Mikal]

I'm not sure if Medoere would launch an attack against Diemed. Their nation is still relatively new and while they've consolidated their defenses the High Priestess Enlien would need to secure her own territories. I think we'd have to look at some factors:

Technically Medoere isn't attacking Diemed. The situation is another nation, formerely from Diemed, is attacking and winning, and Medoere is attacking the nation beating Diemed for a land grab.


- What is Guilder Kalien's stance on this? Is he allied with Diemed? He does, after all, almost completely control Caerwil. Even if he's neutral he may take the opportunity of Enlien's commitment to war to seize control of Caerwil.

Kalien is supposedly neutral.


- Is the IOT involved in this conflict? Chances are both Dieman factions would be loyal to the church and it would remain neutral, however this temple would NEVER allow the Ruornilites control over Haelyn's core lands.

The temple is not allowed. this is straight nation verses nation.


- Is Avanil supporting Diemed? Avanil and Diemed are staunch allies, in fact some of Moere is held by Prince Avan and his forces occupy some border cities. If Diemed can garner even economic support from Avanil it could muster and maintain the armies to win on two fronts.

Actually its the opposite, as Avanil is trying to take Diemed through political, not military means. He might support Diemed due to the fact that the other nation will plan a more direct control then that Diem had.


- Who is supporting the rebel provinces? If they stand alone their resources will rapidly dwindle in the face of Dieman military might. If Baron Diem has law holdings or if the IOT is aiding him it wouldn't take much to turn the people on the rebellion.

Actually the rebel provinces have 3 of the best former Diemedian provinces, and the ruler of them also controls the temple and guild holdings, making him a powerhouse.

Enlien seems to me to be a thoughtful and catious ruler, still new to the throne and her fledgling nation. I would think that it is doubtful she'd act brashly and certainly wouldn't attack Diemed unless guaranteed a victory (or at least a stalemate). Sharing a border with the Spiderfell, a ruler cannot carelessly commit soldiers to a prolonged conflict.

[cutenfluffy]

I think Enlien is LG and indecisive enough that she would not pre-emptively invade. If Endier, Avanil or neo-diemed invite her into the conflict I think she would join in as the potential benefits are large.

However, she would need to consider how Ilien and Roesone percieve such an endeavour. The three nations have functioned closely in recent years and they might become sucpicious of an agressive Medoere.

[irdeggman]

Kalien is supposedly neutral.

Kalien is never "neutral". He may (and will most likely) play both sides against each other - but he is always involved in one way or another.



The temple is not allowed. this is straight nation verses nation.

No such thing in Birthright. The ties between temples and and the people are too great. They have influence in one way or another and everything is interrelated - which is the huge appeal of the setting itself. No man (ruler) is an island.




Actually the rebel provinces have 3 of the best former Diemedian provinces, and the ruler of them also controls the temple and guild holdings, making him a powerhouse.

Then he has the support of the OIT since there is no way he could have gained temple holdings that aren't OIT. They are too powerful to have allowed it to happen.

Are we factoring in "history" here?

Per the PS of Medoere it was founded as a place for the church's followers to have a place of their own. As a theocracy dedicated to an isolationist deity (pretty much Rournil's temples are on their own and in not really heavily populated regions - except for Medoere and some locations in Khinasi lands, but even there they are secondary to Avani) - they would likely stand pat.

Also the "ties" between Modoere, Roesone, Ilien and Aerenwe need to be considered also. They tend to have a sort of mutual protection pact - but that might just be from how I pieced together the PS for those lands.

[The Jew]

I would think Medeore would support which ever side is weaker. that is what would serve Medeore the most in geo-political terms. A united Diemed would always be seeking to retake Medeore and is the single greatest long term threat. With Diemed divided in two, neither side would likely be strong enough to retake the lost lands, especially with each side looking over their shoulders at the other half.

Medeore might try to hide the actions, so as not to create emnity with the likely winner. Also open support of one side of the war, may very lead the OIT to back the other side, for fear of Medeore spreading its faith into Diemed.

This opinion though is based more on looking at what is in Medeores long term interests rather than looking at the personality of the current leader, which I know nothing of.

[Mikal]

Kalien is never "neutral". He may (and will most likely) play both sides against each other - but he is always involved in one way or another.

Hence why I said supposedly. Odds are he'll be involved somehow.





No such thing in Birthright. The ties between temples and and the people are too great. They have influence in one way or another and everything is interrelated - which is the huge appeal of the setting itself. No man (ruler) is an island.

My mistake, I meant to say that, AT THE MOMENT, it's straight nation vs. nation, though the temple might side with Diemed since the OIT would actually lose prestiege if the other side one.


Are we factoring in "history" here?

Per the PS of Medoere it was founded as a place for the church's followers to have a place of their own. As a theocracy dedicated to an isolationist deity (pretty much Rournil's temples are on their own and in not really heavily populated regions - except for Medoere and some locations in Khinasi lands, but even there they are secondary to Avani) - they would likely stand pat.

Exactly what I was trying to hint at for the DM. Outside of the fact that the PC's "displaced" (rather then deposed) the rulers of the realms they're in for their provinces, history is intact.


Also the "ties" between Modoere, Roesone, Ilien and Aerenwe need to be considered also. They tend to have a sort of mutual protection pact - but that might just be from how I pieced together the PS for those lands.

I agree with that as well, which is why the theoretical is between Diemed and "Neo-Diemed", without involving them unless they involve themselves.

[ThatSeanGuy]

Really, if there's going to be chaos in the region, the smart thing to do if you're the Meds is to make some noises like you're going to help one side or the other, move troops up and down your borders, maybe even try and establish a temple or law holding in the place.

And then when the crazy actualy starts happening, shove Kailen out of your northern provence while everyone else is looking at your neighbors. But I've always believed in securing your own turf before trying to get more-or, at least, making sure someone else doesn't practicly own it.

Attacking Diemend is just a bad idea-it gives the Baron over there a weaker enemy he's wanted to hit anyway, which'll help him rally political and popular support against the political actions that were causing the unrest in the first place. When someone's playing politics against a warrior-king, the worst thing to do is to give the guy a clear, military threat that he can rally his people around, y'know?

[ploesch]

As the Former Regent of Medoere, I would have cheered any Friendly Force attacking Diemed. However, being Wise, I would ascertain the motives of Both Parties. If I felt that the upstart nation would eventualy be a threat to my people, then i would certainly go for the easy land grab, even if it meant the upstart nation would be destroyed. Better the enemy you know....

The rulers of Diemed are Notoriously weak, so I'd rather have Diemed on my Borders than a strong expansionist Ruler.

[Cmalik]

medoere dosen't care about ruling their kingdom, they care about their religous freedom. They would stay out of the war-unless it somehow involved their faith.

[maskmaker]

I was pondering this today, actually. And I think that Medoere would make sure that they were invited in by the people of Diemed, or provoked, before invading. If I was regent of Medoere, for instance, I might begin by sending in to Tier, representatives of Ruornil who pledge neutrality in the civil war, and instead serve the local people (Create Temple Holding). The Orthodox Temple might take action against my regent, but I would be gambling, hoping they would be far too busy dealing with either the rebels, or the original Diemen state to actually take much interest in one shrine of Ruornites.

Anyway, so then the people of the province see the priests of Ruornil conducting selfless acts. This will encourage acceptance of Medoere, at the very least, making it slightly more difficult for a Diemen (or rebel) regent to try to use Tier as a staging point for an invasion. If the Othodox Church, Diemed, or the rebel state, begins to harm the priests (contest/other hostile actions), I would issue a decree saying that all regents must seek the best for their people, rather than selfishly attacking those who sought to aid the poor and downtrodden. Then I would move in, for that opportune land-grab at Tier. And maybe whilst protecting my poor Ruornite shrine, a Medoeran lord might accidentally destroy the Diemen presence in Tier. Because (obviously) the regents are unfit to rule the poor, sorrow-ridden people of Tier. Then there would be a moot to raise some commoners into positions as mayors, and such like. Those Diemen lords who do not take back their "evil", "freedom-butchering" ways are exiled. Hey presto, Medoere has a little gain, from a whole lot of scheming.

But then, thats how I think Medoere works. They act only when it will definitely protect people. But that doesn't stop them from setting up the situation that requires protection, surely?

At the end of the whole scheme, Medoere gains the province of Tier, with a shrine to Ruornil and (maybe) the Diemen influence drastically cut, with peasants loyal to Medoere (a law holding) raised into positions of authority.

Viva la theocracie de la Medoere! (Not that I know French - it's probably wrong)

[Sigmund]

As I see it, what Medoere does might depend on what Avanil, Endier, and/or even the Spider do. I couldn't possibly see Medoere doing nothing, but I don't think would immediately invade either... but the Spider might see it as a perfect opportunity to grab land (among other things), as might Endier and Avanil. The Prince would probably love to directly control all the land surrounding the Imperial City for one. Kalien would be much more covert, I'd think. Then again the Guilder might simply strengthen his hold on what he has and simply try to ride out the storm with his holdings intact. Accordingly, Medeore would be best served by seeing which way the wind blows, then just try to take advantage of what opportunities might present themselves. If, for example, the Spider were to make a move, Medoere could move in to "help" repel the invaders, then leave behind some law holders to "protect" the common folk and "maintain the peace".

[Cuchulainshound]

As far as the LG alignment goes, of significant concern would be the "why" behind the civil war- if merely a power grab, then it's open season; if the war was started for "LG" reasons, then attacking them would be a bit hypocritical, and supporting the rebels might be more appropriate. OTOH, if they wished to be LG toward Diemed, and/or had any sort of positive relationship or treaty with them, then they might feel obliged to help restore the unity of their neighbor- and see below.

A simple land-grab might be a bit short-sighted- it would label them as greedy and opportunistic to all neighbors, and open Diemed to further attacks (the "blood in the water" feeding frenzy effect). OTOH, they might get far more political mileage out of hammering out a deal with the "rightful" rulers, and going to their aid. The grateful neighbor is weakened and so neither as powerful nor as inclined to be a threat, yet still strong enough to act as a buffer against forces beyond, and as an ally in general.

So often in BR, as in Diplomacy, the first one to break the peace in an area oten loses. The winner is the one with the most intact alliances.

[cvgawde]

As far as the LG alignment goes, of significant concern would be the "why" behind the civil war- if merely a power grab, then it's open season; if the war was started for "LG" reasons, then attacking them would be a bit hypocritical, and supporting the rebels might be more appropriate. OTOH, if they wished to be LG toward Diemed, and/or had any sort of positive relationship or treaty with them, then they might feel obliged to help restore the unity of their neighbor- and see below.

A simple land-grab might be a bit short-sighted- it would label them as greedy and opportunistic to all neighbors, and open Diemed to further attacks (the "blood in the water" feeding frenzy effect). OTOH, they might get far more political mileage out of hammering out a deal with the "rightful" rulers, and going to their aid. The grateful neighbor is weakened and so neither as powerful nor as inclined to be a threat, yet still strong enough to act as a buffer against forces beyond, and as an ally in general.

So often in BR, as in Diplomacy, the first one to break the peace in an area oten loses. The winner is the one with the most intact alliances.


I agree, since the premise of Medoere's formation was not a grab for power but a refuge for religious beliefs I would be under the impression that Enlien would be more interested in securing the borders of her kingdom with diplomacy than greedily grabbing land and risking further confrontation.

There are times when foregoing an opportunity may yield a greater reward than a plot of contested land. If Enlien could forge an alliance with the faction that takes Diemed she can secure all but one of Medoere's border, enabling her to focus troops against the Spider's forces and provide for a more secure kingdom. If she commits to war with either side she would risk squandering valuable military forces and could see trouble in Caerwil, either from the Spider's marauders or Kalien's thugs.

[cyrano24100]

I'd Sawy they would stay out of it -- from the Lawful Good standpoint.

That being said, they might still be within alignment to actually help Diemed regain control over lost provinces: That might make Diemed more of a long-term happy neighbor. I concur with previous posts: Meodore is still too new of a kingdom to have the luxury of making more enemies: and attacking Diemed would alarm other border states (Endier, Illien especially) as to future intentions. A Kingdom and dynasty are long-term affairs.

[AKjeldsen]

If I were an advisor to Medoere, I'd certainly suggest offering assistance to Diemed in return for a lasting peace treaty. At least one can be reasonably certain that Diemed would honour such an agreement, whereas with a new player on the scene... who knows?