BRCS question

[Fizz]

Hi all-

I have a question not about the BRCS rules, but rather the origin of the rules.

The original Birthright rules did not have any rules for the case of scions dying and releasing their RP in a burst of energy, causing multiple characters to increase (or gain) their bloodline. Where did this type of mechanic first appear? Or was it devised specifically for the BRCS?

Thanks for the info!


-Fizz

[irdeggman]

It started on the boards with some discussions and IIRC first appeared within a complete ruleset in the Book of Doom (i.e., Doom's rules). These were generally received very well and became the closest to a "standard" that there was at the time.

So that mechanic spread into the BRCS.

It has caused "splits" in opinions with some thinking it is very cinematic and others thinking it is too much like Highlander.

[ploesch]

My first encounter with this rule was reading the playtest, what 2 weeks ago. I love it, it allows for gainig regency for a whole party, which is good, and you don't have to make the killing blow yourself, although you'd still want to be the one that was closest. I also like that is really sets the stage for an unblooded character gaining bloodline.

[Fizz]

My first encounter with this rule was reading the playtest, what 2 weeks ago. I love it, it allows for gainig regency for a whole party, which is good, and you don't have to make the killing blow yourself, although you'd still want to be the one that was closest. I also like that is really sets the stage for an unblooded character gaining bloodline.

It does, however, make bloodtheft less of a personal affair. Imagine a band of unblooded brigands who decide to attack a scion en masse, kill him, so they can all become blooded.

Because of that sort of thing, i would think there would be many more scions than there actually are. Only 1% of the population are scions. That seems awfully small considering just anyone standing nearby can absorb the bloodline.

I mean, just think of how many soldiers could suddenly become blooded because their king was slain on the battlefield.


-Fizz

[geeman]

At 07:19 PM 8/14/2006, ploesch wrote:

>My first encounter with this rule was reading the playtest, what 2
>weeks ago. I love it, it allows for gainig regency for a whole
>party, which is good, and you don`t have to make the killing blow
>yourself, although you`d still want to be the one that was
>closest. I also like that is really sets the stage for an unblooded
>character gaining bloodline.

Personally, I don`t much care for this rule not because it`s more
cinematic, but because it just contradicts the original concept. The
original is just as cinematic as this interpretation. That is, an
act of bloodtheft would still be just as dramatic, have the same
amount of special effects and the accompanying music if it is a
transfer from victim to killer as the release of bloodline in a
radius around the "explosion." If the idea had been for scions to
explode as the gods had then that would have been how it was done.

There are merits to the idea that there`s an explosion rather than a
direct transfer. It does, for instance, explain the origins of a few
awnsheghlien and some sundry BR characters, and make the transfer of
bloodline to a commoner make sense. However, to make it the standard
method of bloodtheft strikes me as going too far. Those occasions
when bloodline is transferred in the way described by the BRCS or to
a commoner are so few that they can be rationalized as DM fiat rather
than made the standard method of bloodtheft, and contradicts the
setting more than it agrees.

Gary

[irdeggman]

Now you also have to realize that in order to make the 2nd ed rules work then a system for how to perform a killing blow through the heart needed to be developed.

IIRC until the Player's Option series (Combat and Tactics) there really wasn't an "official" critical hits table produced.

So the "original rules" didn't quite work as written either.

[irdeggman]

It does, however, make bloodtheft less of a personal affair. Imagine a band of unblooded brigands who decide to attack a scion en masse, kill him, so they can all become blooded.

Because of that sort of thing, i would think there would be many more scions than there actually are. Only 1% of the population are scions. That seems awfully small considering just anyone standing nearby can absorb the bloodline.

I mean, just think of how many soldiers could suddenly become blooded because their king was slain on the battlefield.


-Fizz

Except that only one non-blooded person will become blooded through the death of scion. And it is still difficult to do.


The non-blooded character must make a character level check (d20 + character level) against a DC of 20 (15 if the derivation is Azrai). If successful, the character becomes blooded and gains a bloodline ability score of 5 or one half of the bloodline strength of the victim whichever is lower, with the bloodline strength and derivation of the victim. Newly created scions are not subject to a maximum regency collection – they absorb all available regency in their share of the burst. None of this regency is stored; it is immediately used to raise the new scion's bloodline score at the standard cost (one plus the current bloodline score) up to a maximum of one less than the victim. This process is repeated until all RP are spent (the remainder are discarded).


When it says "his share" it means what is left when the burst reaches him.

[Fizz]

Except that only one non-blooded person will become blooded through the death of scion. And it is still difficult to do.

When it says "his share" it means what is left when the burst reaches him.

Hmmm... ok. Must've misread or misunderstood that part.

Now you also have to realize that in order to make the 2nd ed rules work then a system for how to perform a killing blow through the heart needed to be developed.

IIRC until the Player's Option series (Combat and Tactics) there really wasn't an "official" critical hits table produced.

I don't think you'd need a critical hit to do it, nor C&T. Back in 2nd Ed, i just used the called-shot rule. That made it more difficult to do than a standard attack, but didn't unnecessarily complicate things.


-Fizz

[Mikal]

except the called shot rule is stupid, both thematically in 2nd and 3rd edition, with the added bonus of it being stupid mechanically in 3rd edition as well.

[Fizz]

except the called shot rule is stupid, both thematically in 2nd and 3rd edition, with the added bonus of it being stupid mechanically in 3rd edition as well.

Um, why?

Thematically there is nothing wrong with it- "I'm aiming for his heart!" That was the whole idea.

The simple -4 to called shots in 2nd Ed does have some issues if it's not adjudicated with some common sense. But that's nothing a good DM can't deal with.


-Fizz

[irdeggman]

Hmmm... ok. Must've misread or misunderstood that part.


-Fizz

The text for becoming blooded via usurpation states there is no limit (except for the 1 less than the blood score of the victim) for the amount of RP absorbed by a non-blooded.

To check out the math let's run a test (let me know if I miscalculated something - I've been known to do that before):


Assumption: scion with a bloodline score of 20 is slain.

Burst is equal to 100 RP with a radius of 100 ft.

Assume that 3 non-blooded individuals are in the area and no scions are present.

So the closest to the slain scion is the one that starts the process.

Assume a character level of 5. The character has to make a character level check (d20 + character level) against a DC of 20 (or 15 for Azrai derivation). IF successful and the non-blooded character’s basic nature agrees with the derivation then he becomes blooded. If either test fails then he doesn’t and the RP passes into the ground without effect.

Assuming the character passes the tests and becomes blooded.

He absorbs the entire 100 RP generated.

He immediately gains a bloodline score of 5 leaving 95 RP left in the pool.

This applies to raising his bloodline score. {to raise the bloodline score it costs the target value in RP}

To 6 (leaving 89)

To 7 (leaving 92)

To 8 (leaving 84)

To 9 (leaving 75)

To 10 (leaving 65)

To 11 (leaving 54)

To 12 (leaving (42)

To 13 (leaving 29)

To 14 (leaving 15)

To 15 (leaving 0)


No one else gets anything since only the closest makes the check.

Now it is easily a house-rule/Dm fiat that in order to even make the character level check the potential scion must have a basic nature that is compatable with the derivation and none of the other non-blooded characters count. But the BRCS doesn't go into that kind of detail.

If there are any scions present within the blast radius they absorb RP first.


Each scion within the area of effect absorbs the released RP as follows. Start with the closest scion; in the case of ties, select the scion with the highest bloodline strength and then the highest score. This scion is exposed to the released RP. She absorbs the RP, up to a limit of twice her current bloodline strength. Any unabsorbed RP continues out in a burst that affects the next closest scion.

[Fizz]

If there are any scions present within the blast radius they absorb RP first.

So does this mean that a commoner can only gain a bloodline only if there are no other scions in the radius of effect?

In your example, say the commoner slays the scion, so the commoner is right next to him. Then there are 3 other commoners nearby. But way out right at the 100 foot mark is a lone scion. Are you saying the lone scion would absorb all the RP and none of the commoners would gain anything?

If so, then it suggests this divine blood energy is `attracted' to itself.

So would sielseigh gems would attract each other like magnets? This could lead to many interesting events. :)

-Fizz

[irdeggman]

So does this mean that a commoner can only gain a bloodline only if there are no other scions in the radius of effect?

In your example, say the commoner slays the scion, so the commoner is right next to him. Then there are 3 other commoners nearby. But way out right at the 100 foot mark is a lone scion. Are you saying the lone scion would absorb all the RP and none of the commoners would gain anything?

If so, then it suggests this divine blood energy is `attracted' to itself.

So would sielseigh gems would attract each other like magnets? This could lead to many interesting events. :)

-Fizz

No a commoner could still become blooded. Remember that a scion is limited to the amount of RP he can absorb (not using bloodtheft or a tighm. weapon) of 2 x his bloodline score.

So in the example above if a scion was present with a bloodscore of 20 he would absorb the first 40 RP (2 x 20) generated by the blast, leaving 60 for the commoner to potentially absorb.

And yes I would say that bloodlines are attracted to each other. This fits the mechanic that scion doesn't have to make a check to absorb any of the RP from the blast but only to resist changing derivation (also a complicated process but laid out in Chap 2). This would also explain why bloodtheft was common in the years following Deismaar and having commoners receive bloodlines was relatively rare.

[ploesch]

So, true story...

In my first Birthright games, I was the regent of medoere, and the GM (his first time also, the boxed set had just came out) ran the "wedding"adventure from the back of the book. The Bandit King and I met,a nd he said he was going to capture me, I was 2nd level at this point I think.

At any rate, I used the only non-healing spell I had. "DIE!" I commanded him, and he did, so before everyone recovered from the shock, I stabbed him through the heart, and told everyone they'd better back off before I kill them also. the rest of the PC's were already taking defensive positions.

The point is, Blows to the heart don't have to be based on Mechanics solely, it's a cinematic thing, and there are ways around it. remember, people don't actually die till -10 or -CON, and realistically noone actually dies until a few minutes after they fall.

[geeman]

At 09:35 PM 8/15/2006, ploesch wrote:

>The point is, Blows to the heart don`t have to be based on Mechanics
>solely, it`s a cinematic thing, and there are ways around
>it. remember, people don`t actually die till -10 or -CON, and
>realistically noone actually dies until a few minutes after they fall.

While I would agree that bloodtheft can be handled "cinematically" I
think there are good ways of handling it with game mechanics. Here`s
what I use for bloodtheft. I try avoid the "called shot" rule which
I think is a bit hokey, and any issues with making the process
circumvent any of the existing mechanics.

Also, it`s important to me that the rules abide by the original
concept of bloodtheft, so scions don`t explode using these rules
(other than in a descriptive way.) Only the person wielding the
weapon that dealt the death blow can gain points from an act of
bloodtheft. Commoners have no standardized way of gaining a
bloodline through bloodtheft. Furthermore, this system also appears
to be less generous than the one in the BRCS update. That`s to deal
with some of the issues that have arisen with the transfer of
bloodline using bloodtheft. A scion with a very high bloodline score
shouldn`t necessarily benefit from usurping the bloodline of one with
a very low bloodline score.

A careful reading will show that using these rules a scion could,
technically, be stabbed in the heart, lose his bloodline, and then be
rescued by medical or magical means (if the blow that reduced him to
below 0 hp was a critical hit) but it would be fairly hard to do--and
should be possible anyway, IMO. Besides, victims of bloodtheft can
still be raised from the dead, which has the same basic effect.

--ooOoo---

Bloodtheft

When one scion kills another scion by stabbing him in the heart the
power of dying scion`s bloodline is released. Some of this power is
transferred into the body of the person holding the weapon that
delivers the killing blow, possibly increasing the bloodline score of
the slayer. This act is called bloodtheft. However, stabbing a
person through the heart is not simple. An act of bloodtheft only
occurs under special circumstances. First, bloodtheft can only be
performed using a piercing or slashing melee weapon. The weapon must
be held when the killing blow is delivered; one cannot commit an act
of bloodtheft with a thrown weapon. If those basic conditions are
met, an act of bloodtheft can occur under the following circumstances:

1. When a scion performs a coup de grace upon another scion.
2. Whenever a deathblow is dealt to a scion. That is, a killing
blow that reduces the victim`s hit points below 0 or -10 (depending
on whether one is using the -10 rule.)
3. When the blow that reduces a scion`s hit points below 0 is a
critical hit.

If a scion is killed in any of the above circumstances you must check
to see if an act of bloodtheft occurs. Successfully performing
bloodtheft requires that the slayer make a check using his dexterity
modifier. The DC of the check depends upon the circumstances of the
potential act of bloodtheft as described on the table below:

TABLE 4: BLOODTHEFT DIFFICULTY
DC Condition
5 The killing blow is a coup de grace.
15 The slayer is using a piercing weapon.
20 The slayer is using a slashing weapon.

When bloodtheft occurs it may increase the bloodline score of the
scion who committed the act depending upon the bloodline score of the
slayer and his victim. If the bloodline score of the victim is less
than or equal to the bloodline score of the slayer use the respective
bloodline scores as modifiers on an opposed roll. If the result of
the victim`s roll is higher than the slayer`s roll then the slayer`s
bloodline score increases by at least 1 point.

If the bloodline score of the victim is greater than that of the
slayer then the slayer`s bloodline score automatically increases by
+1. Subtract the slayer`s new bloodline score from that of the
victim. If the remainder is still greater than that of the slayer
then increase the slayer`s new bloodline score by another +1 and
subtract this number from the remainder of the victim`s bloodline
score. If this second remainder is still greater than that of the
slayer`s new bloodline score continue the process until the remainder
is less than or equal to the slayer`s bloodline score. Any remainder
then becomes a modifier in an opposed roll just as if the bloodline
score of the victim were lower than that of the slayer above.

For example, a scion with a bloodline score of 14 kills another
blooded character with a bloodline score of 10. Roll d20 + 14 for
the slayer and d20 +10 for the victim. If the result of the victim`s
check exceeds that of the slayer then the slayer`s bloodline score
will increase by one point to 15. If a scion with a bloodline score
of 12 kills a scion with a bloodline score of 33 the slayer
automatically adds +1 to bloodline score (12 +1 = 13) since his
victim`s bloodline score is higher than his own. The new bloodline
score of the slayer is then subtracted from the bloodline score of
his victim (33 - 13 = 20.) Since the remainder (20) is still higher
than the new bloodline score of the slayer (13) add +1 to the
slayer`s bloodline score (13 +1 = 14) and subtract this new number
from the remaining bloodline score of the victim (20 - 14 =
6.) Since that remainder (6) is now lower than the slayer`s
bloodline score both values are used as modifiers on an opposed
roll. If the result of the victim`s roll (d20 + 6) is greater than
that of the slayer (d20 +15) then the slayer`s bloodline score will
increase a third time to 16. If the slayer`s roll is higher than
that of his victim his bloodline score will remain 15.

On rare occasions a bloodline can be transferred from a scion to a
commoner through an act of bloodtheft or similar event. These
transfers are rare enough, however, that they qualify as events
similar to the Land`s Choice and should be handled by the DM on a
case-by-case basis.