chapter 3

[ploesch]

Hi, Me again. :)

One point I didn't find to be clear in Chapter 3 was the creation of magic items.


Magical items are relatively uncommon in Cerilia. Although magical items can be created using the standard rules presented in the Player's Handbook, most Cerilian wizards prefer not to spend their vital essence (XP) and fortunes (gp) in the creation of miscellaneous disposable magical items. Cerilian artificers tend not to waste their efforts on the creation of minor devices. The magical devices that do exist in Cerilia are generally quite powerful, and rarely have a market value below 4000gp.

To me, this doesn't limit the creation of magic items at all, thus creating a normal magic world. It basically says that cerilian wizards would generally not bother with lesser magic items, but the rules themselves would be the same. I had read on these forums that cost of creating magic items is doubled. This is a good example of a rule that may need clarification.


The variant, of spending RP instead of Experience would limit the creation of magic items, both because of additional time, and the fact that I wouldn't want to spend my RP on items as a cerilian wizard, I may need them to fend a source from a regent trying to rule up a province level or usurper trying to claim a source.

Do we want to limit magic creation?

I do, that's one of the things I like about the setting, but I don't want to make them too rare for players. As a matter of fact, one of the things I like about 3rd edition is how easy and creative players can make and be with magic items. Those 2 ideas are a little at odds with eachother. So here is another variant for your consideration.

Variant: Unlike other realms where Magic permeates the air, and every living creature, on Cerilia it is locked in the land. At the Battle of Deismar when the gods died and their essense flowed into the land and their followers the magic force o the world became locked in the land, no longer flowing freely through everything. This is why only scion wizards can fully access the mebhaighl of the land. Creating Magic Items on Cerilia requires expenditure of Time, Experience Points, RP, access to a source and Money. Magic items are created in the exact way described in the players with 2 noticable exceptions. The Wizard must spend 1 RP for every 1000 Gold peices to create item and have access to a source level strong enough to support the creation of the magic item. To find out is the Source is strong enough, square the source level and multiply it by 5,000 GP to determine the maximum value of magic item that can be created at that source. So, a source 1 can support creating magic items of up to 5,000 GP value, a source 5 can support up to 125,000 GP value. The lab used to creat the item must be physically near the source, or a ley line can be created from the appropriate source to the lab. For Priests it is a similar process except that they must have a temple holding powerful enough to support the item being created, like casting realm magic, they must also marshall the faithful making the creation of magical items a public affair for priests, this can be dangerous. While the gold must be available up front, the RP can be expended over the entire course of the creation process. In this way if the item takes multiple seasons to create the artificer can stop and pick-up creating the item as they have the opportunity. I suggest making rate of RP expenditure be 1 RP per day of working on the item being created. This is up to the GM, but I feel it is a more realistic way to handle it, ad doesn't allow an artificer that is 1 day away from creating an item, but 30 RP get a boon from a friend and finish it in one day.

This variant allows for players to create magic items, but limits their availability because only Blooded scions with powerful sources can create them.

[dalor]

Good idea.

An idea I had is very simple:

Heroes are above the common man in their world...even
above monarchs who commonly only sit upon their
throne. Casters of magic are described as rare in
Cerilia...they just aren`t that common. Since they
aren`t that common, and many don`t even reach
significant level to create the more powerful magic
items, magic items are rare...at least higher end
items.

This is simply a role-playing thing...and in no way a
rule. But I like the idea that PCs are simply
different from others in their world...they are what
the stories are about and so should be "above" the
average Scion even. Sure, the Gorgon has +5 this and
that and is a powerful wizard...but he is like the
Sauron of Cerilia and should be powerful.

Does even High Mage Aelies run around sporting magic
items bulging out of his portable hole? Nope...and he
is one of the most powerful wizards in all of Anuire!

So I think it is ok for players to make magic items
just as they are in the 3.5e...even though I still
miss the days when characters had to be around level 9
to start making magic items (way back in AD&D).


Anthony Edwards

--- ploesch <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:

> Hi, Me again. :)
>
> One point I didn`t find to be clear in Chapter 3 was
> the creation of magic items.
>
> ------------ QUOTE ----------
> Magical items are relatively uncommon in Cerilia.
> Although magical items can be created using the
> standard rules presented in the Player`s Handbook,
> most Cerilian wizards prefer not to spend their
> vital essence (XP) and fortunes (gp) in the creation
> of miscellaneous disposable magical items. Cerilian
> artificers tend not to waste their efforts on the
> creation of minor devices. The magical devices that
> do exist in Cerilia are generally quite powerful,
> and rarely have a market value below 4000gp.
> -----------------------------
>
> To me, this doesn`t limit the creation of magic
> items at all, thus creating a normal magic world.
> It basically says that cerilian wizards would
> generally not bother with lesser magic items, but
> the rules themselves would be the same. I had read
> on these forums that cost of creating magic items is
> doubled. This is a good example of a rule that may
> need clarification.
>
>
> The variant, of spending RP instead of Experience
> would limit the creation of magic items, both
> because of additional time, and the fact that I
> wouldn`t want to spend my RP on items as a cerilian
> wizard, I may need them to fend a source from a
> regent trying to rule up a province level or usurper
> trying to claim a source.
>
> Do we want to limit magic creation?
>
> I do, that`s one of the things I like about the
> setting, but I don`t want to make them too rare for
> players. As a matter of fact, one of the things I
> like about 3rd edition is how easy and creative
> players can make and be with magic items. Those 2
> ideas are a little at odds with eachother. So here
> is another variant for your consideration.
>
> Variant: Unlike other realms where Magic permeates
> the air, and every living creature, on Cerilia it is
> locked in the land. This is why only scion wizards
> can fully access the mebhaighl of the land.
> Creating Magic Items on Cerilia requires expenditure
> of Time, Experience Points, RP, access to a source
> and Money. Magic items are created in the exact way
> described in the players with 2 noticable
> exceptions. The Wizard must spend 1 RP for every
> 1000 Gold peices to create item and have access to a
> source level strong enough to support the creation
> of the magic item. To find out is the Source is
> strong enough, square the source level and multiply
> it by 5,000 GP to determine the maximum value of
> magic item that can be created at that source. So,
> a source 1 can support creating magic items of up to
> 5,000 GP value, a source 5 can support up to 125,000
> GP value. The lab used to creat the item must be
> physically near the source, or a ley line can be
> created from the appropriate source to the lab. For
> Priests it is a similar process except that they
> must have a temple holding powerful enough to
> support the item being created, like casting realm
> magic, they must also marshall the faithful making
> the creation of magical items a public affair for
> priests, this can be dangerous.
>
> This variant allows for players to create magic
> items, but limits their availability because only
> Blooded scions with powerful sources can create
> them.

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[gazza666]

Hi, Me again. :)
The variant, of spending RP instead of Experience would limit the creation of magic items, both because of additional time, and the fact that I wouldn't want to spend my RP on items as a cerilian wizard, I may need them to fend a source from a regent trying to rule up a province level or usurper trying to claim a source.

Well, source regents are already going to be burning regency at a fast rate anyway. The amount of regency required for realm spells is substantially higher than the meagre amounts required for magic item creation.

Your point about the time is acknowledged, however; I'd add a further query here - is this 32 days a one-time extension? If I'm making a magic item worth 200000gp then that's a 200 day creation time. Standard 3.5 rules say that I can do a bit here, a bit there - it doesn't have to be consecutive. In Birthright, with this rule, it looks like this is only going to take me 232 days to make.

Fair enough. Normally, that would cost me 8000XP. Under this variant, I could use 800 Regency - does that all have to come at once, or can I spend "a bit here, a bit there" the same way I can spend the time? It strikes me as highly unlikely that any wizard is ever going to be allowed to have 800 Regency in the bank; to maintain that for 6 months would require a 401 bloodline score, and if you have a 401 bloodline score then no teeny little magical item worth only 200K is going to be worth your notice.

(snipped variant)
Your variant looks completely workable to me. I might well suggest our DM adopt this as a house rule.

It does suffer from the same question regarding whether or not you can "space out" the regency cost, though; the 200K item would cost 200 regency to make (and under your variant I still have to spend the 8000XP - acceptable); would you suggest that this had to come all at once, or could I spend it over the course of the 200 days (at a minimum, over 2 seasons - and more realistically probably a full year)?

If it has to come all at once, then we're restricting the power of magic items as well as the rarity - which is arguably not what is desired. As I understand it, we want to make magic items rare, but not weak.

[irdeggman]

The information in Chap 3 concerning creating magic items is wrong.

Chapter 8 covers creating magic items. I had tried to get the magic item information inserted into Ch 3 when we put the playtest document together but was overruled and thus Ch 8 is the source for information on magic items.

When Ch 3 is revised that variant will be removed.

I have a pretty strong opinion on allowing the substituion of RP for exp in creating magic items. I equate RP to interest and exp to capital. IN the core rules a character is giving up part of his essence (i.e., exp) to create items. Sacrificing part of his bloodline (i.e., bloodline score) is IMO a better substitution.

Swapping RP for gp for item creation is likewise not wise.

The rules allow sacrificing RP to pay maintenance costs but what this is equating to is that basically the regent is drawing on his emotional bank account (to use Covey terminology) it "pay"" the people performing the labor. RP is a reflection of the loyalty and devotion of the land and people.

Now this exchange doesn't seem to be applicable to "objects" and things that don't have an emotional attachment to the regent so I would be very very hesitant to allow RP for gp exchange for item creation.


From Ch 8
Creating magical items

Variant - Substitutions for experience points in item creation

Blooded characters can opt to sacrifice their bloodline score in lieu of experience points to cast spells that require the expenditure of experience points or to create magic items. The exchange rate is 750 experience points for every point of bloodline score so sacrificed. This sacrifice can only be used once per item or spell.

[gazza666]

I have a pretty strong opinion on allowing the substituion of RP for exp in creating magic items. I equate RP to interest and exp to capital. IN the core rules a character is giving up part of his essence (i.e., exp) to create items. Sacrificing part of his bloodline (i.e., bloodline score) is IMO a better substitution.

If you make that the only way (ie you can't spend XP), that will pretty much guarantee you get the "rare magic". :)

However, to play Devil's Advocate for a moment, there seems to be a sort of precedent here with realm spells. "Normal" spells sometimes have a material component, and sometimes have an experience point cost. Correct me if I'm wrong, but while realm spells all require expensive material components, they do not require XP (and indeed it would seem logical that they shouldn't, as such magic is beyond the ability of a moral caster to "power" with his own lifeforce). If realm spells can be looked at as substituting regency for XP - which seems a not totally unreasonable deduction - then there is some scope for arguing that you might be able to tap into the source to power the creation of magical items as well.



Swapping RP for gp for item creation is likewise not wise.

Technically, couldn't you sort of do that anyway? Use Alchemy, then use the Finance action?

I realise that most regents who spend their domain treasuries for personal reasons will arise the ire of their subjects, but a source regent doesn't really have any subjects, right?

[irdeggman]

If you make that the only way (ie you can't spend XP), that will pretty much guarantee you get the "rare magic". :)

But then elves wouldn't be able to create magic items - unless they are scions. It still seems better to just increase the cost (and thus the exp required) in order to create them. This causes less of a deviation from the core rules and follows guidelines established in the Complete Warrior for low magic item games (pg 137)


However, to play Devil's Advocate for a moment, there seems to be a sort of precedent here with realm spells. "Normal" spells sometimes have a material component, and sometimes have an experience point cost. Correct me if I'm wrong, but while realm spells all require expensive material components, they do not require XP (and indeed it would seem logical that they shouldn't, as such magic is beyond the ability of a moral caster to "power" with his own lifeforce). If realm spells can be looked at as substituting regency for XP - which seems a not totally unreasonable deduction - then there is some scope for arguing that you might be able to tap into the source to power the creation of magical items as well.

Not the same thing at all.

RP for realm spells is a component of the spell. Looking at Realm Spells substituting RP for xp follows the same path that I believe to be faulty by not sacrificing part of the caster's essence. Now there is nothing that correlates expensive components with xp in the core rules - and that is also a path that some people tend to follow, that is equating expensive components with exp.



Technically, couldn't you sort of do that anyway? Use Alchemy, then use the Finance action?

And that is the point of the spell - to swap out RP for GB. But there is no equivalent for exp in the equation. Allowing an option to swap RP for GB without using the Realm Spells would render the spells useless, IMO. Alchemy was a very significant Realm Spell in 2nd ed.

Also realize that GB do not equal gp they are actually measures of value and trade (grain, goods, etc.) so they do not have a direct correlation - and that is also something that gets lost in the analysis.


I realise that most regents who spend their domain treasuries for personal reasons will arise the ire of their subjects, but a source regent doesn't really have any subjects, right?

That is why converting GB to gp is a court action. And since most wizards don't have courts this becomes a standard domain action for them.

[ploesch]

OK, so I just need to read further along. :D

Still, I'm glad to have some clarity on creating Magic Items in Cerilia.

I hope you don't mind me crtiqueing as I read. :)

You've done an excellent job, and I have the utmost respect for the time and love you've put into this project.

[irdeggman]

OK, so I just need to read further along. :D


A lot of people either skip over or don't read Cha 8. There is a lot of useful information there. It was basically the place to put things that didn't quite fit in another section or that crossed mutliple sections.

[nagebenfro]

A lot of people either skip over or don't read Cha 8. There is a lot of useful information there. It was basically the place to put things that didn't quite fit in another section or that crossed mutliple sections.

I just read the chapter, and I have to say i've fallen in love with it. Thank you for highlighting it's existance to me.

There are so many plot hooks possible with people competing for those magic items, for a start, and I can't wait to try out some of them.

[ploesch]

.....It does suffer from the same question regarding whether or not you can "space out" the regency cost, though; the 200K item would cost 200 regency to make (and under your variant I still have to spend the 8000XP - acceptable); would you suggest that this had to come all at once, or could I spend it over the course of the 200 days (at a minimum, over 2 seasons - and more realistically probably a full year)?.....

I would allow it to be spent over the entire course of the creation, perhaps at a set rate, like 1 per day of actually working on it. I have changed my variant rules above.

[ploesch]

A lot of people either skip over or don't read Cha 8. There is a lot of useful information there. It was basically the place to put things that didn't quite fit in another section or that crossed mutliple sections.
I skipped ahead a few chapters and read 8, although i think I need a to read a little more thoroughly before knowing all that is there.

So, the rules for Double money and XP are there also, now I know where that came from.

I still like my variant more, just because the required RP is a real limiting factor, limiting creation to Scions, or appointees of scions. Also, the double cost, it seems to me, would encourage more low cost items rather than powerful ones. While my system would discourage the creation of lesser magic items (1RP for a level 1 scroll?). This is easily explained as something that came about after deismaar, as that is when Magic became locked up in the land, or less magic became available outside the land, however you want to explain it.

Expending Bloodscore instead of XP is a reasonal variant, and would definetely limit magic creation. However, I think it's too limiting, IMO.

[gazza666]

I've been giving this a bit of thought. On the whole, I'm not sure that merely increasing the price of magical items will have the desired effect.

At level 1, you buy whatever your meagre funds can purchase. By level 2, you probably have a decent masterwork weapon and if you're not a warrior, you've got masterwork armour as well. By the time level 3 rolls around, even warriors have all their mundane equipment needs sorted out.

From that point onward, spellcasters might burn money on spell research, and possibly rogues of the more dastardly type might invest in poisons, but for the majority of cases the only thing to spend your acquired cash on is magical items. (I'll come back to the question of whether or not you can buy them at all in a moment).

Of course, you'll only be able to afford half as many as you could in the core rules. Monsters in MM1-3 + FF are balanced assuming that the party facing them has the appropriate level of equipment (probably MM4 is as well; I don't own that at present, but I would be astounded to find out otherwise). Thus, going up against a CR10 creature with (effectively) only half the equipment that you're "supposed" to have may make that encounter much harder than it "should" be. This entails a fairly tricky case of trying to rebalance monsters to deal with the lowered resources of the party.

Unfortunately, that's going to be pretty hard to do. With a lot of money invested in magical items, PCs are likely to have several minor items (Handy Haversacks, potions of cure light wounds, the odd figurine of wondrous power, perhaps a backup weapon). Facing the prospect of having to pay more for magical items, I think a lot of players are going to decide to not get these "fluff" items and spend everything on acquiring good weapons, a high AC, and a good bonus to their spellcasting ability score. Other players will still continue to get the "fluff" items - for any number of reasons, roleplaying related up to mechanical (a party without an item creator, for example, may be restricted to whatever they have found). The upshot is that some players will be not much less powerful (in encounter strength) than they would be in a "normal" situation, while others will be half or less powerful. Balancing things will prove tricky.

On the other hand, it has been said before that most encounters in Birthright won't be with monsters, but rather with PC types (orogs, goblins, other humans, and so on). A steady diet of NPC encounters is a treasure inflation problem in a core rules campaign, and it would be no less so in a campaign where magic items are twice as valuable. If it is indeed true that PCs encounter NPC types more often in Birthright, then even doubling the price of magical items won't have the desired result, as NPCs have a lot more than double the normal loot for their CR.

Alright, what if you can't buy magical items? That seems to be the assumption in Birthright; there are no "magic shops". Does that help? If the party includes no item creators, sure - the party will have only whatever magical items they happen to acquire in the course of their adventuring; since the DM is able to control this absolutely, then magic items can be as common or as rare as desired (and as weak or as powerful as desired). Of course, in such a case, there is no need to give variant rules for the cost of magical items, since they are effectively priceless.

The BRCS does not propose to be so harsh as to remove item creation feats completely, however, and nor does ploesch's idea. That means that magic items can be created, which solves the "buy" side of the magic item shop issue. Can magic items be sold? If not sold, can they be usefully "harvested" by someone for the raw materials to create other magic items? (I've used a houserule not dissimilar to this in a homebrew game in the past).

If there's no way to turn an unwanted magical item into something more desirable of comparable value - in other words, if magic items cannot be sold to anyone - then you're back at the issue of encounters being harder than expected, but with a really nasty twist: now, the last thing your PCs want to find in a treasure horde is a magical item. Cash they can use, gems they can use, but magical items are virtually worthless to them (assuming it isn't one they'd be inclined to use anyway - and given the huge variety of magical items compared to the few types that most PCs and NPCs tend to actually use, this assumption often holds).

To put it another way: a possible consequence of removing magic shops is that players hate finding magic items on the dead bodies of their foes. One would think that this is an extremely unwanted side effect of trying to enforce a "rare magic" setting. Logically, in a rare magic setting, every magic item should be precious. But mechanically, if you're only going to get half the magic items you normally would, you don't have any room for items that are of no immediate use to you.

To summarise: I think that making magical items more costly, if done in a vacuum, will cause more problems than it solves. I think a better solution would be to make magical items different rather than merely more expensive. Perhaps magic items could require powering by regency every so often, or they gradually lose their enchantment. Maybe you could require that magic items be "attuned" using XP equal to the XP cost when the item was created in order to work (you might allow casters to automatically be attuned to any item they create - or you might not).

[irdeggman]

The BRCS does not propose to be so harsh as to remove item creation feats completely, however, and nor does ploesch's idea. That means that magic items can be created, which solves the "buy" side of the magic item shop issue. Can magic items be sold? If not sold, can they be usefully "harvested" by someone for the raw materials to create other magic items? (I've used a houserule not dissimilar to this in a homebrew game in the past).

If there's no way to turn an unwanted magical item into something more desirable of comparable value - in other words, if magic items cannot be sold to anyone - then you're back at the issue of encounters being harder than expected, but with a really nasty twist: now, the last thing your PCs want to find in a treasure horde is a magical item. Cash they can use, gems they can use, but magical items are virtually worthless to them (assuming it isn't one they'd be inclined to use anyway - and given the huge variety of magical items compared to the few types that most PCs and NPCs tend to actually use, this assumption often holds).


At no time did I ever state or intend to infer that magic items can’t be sold. Only that there are no “corner magic ships” like there are in many other settings. There is always someone willing to buy things.

The core rules already cover selling magic items (PHB pg 168) “Magic items, for instance, can be sold, but only for half of what they would cost to buy”


So there is already a mechanic in place to provide incentive to keep magic items found.


To put it another way: a possible consequence of removing magic shops is that players hate finding magic items on the dead bodies of their foes. One would think that this is an extremely unwanted side effect of trying to enforce a "rare magic" setting. Logically, in a rare magic setting, every magic item should be precious. But mechanically, if you're only going to get half the magic items you normally would, you don't have any room for items that are of no immediate use to you.

You’ve lost me on this “no room” thing. What do you mean by it?



To summarise: I think that making magical items more costly, if done in a vacuum, will cause more problems than it solves.

What this comes down to the basic role of the DM in the first place. If a DM is not planning and accounting for how things interrelate in his game he is doing everyone (himself included) a disservice. If a Dm is using adventures and rules right off the shelf without looking them over and making necessary “adjustments” he is just asking for trouble.



I think a better solution would be to make magical items different rather than merely more expensive. Perhaps magic items could require powering by regency every so often, or they gradually lose their enchantment. Maybe you could require that magic items be "attuned" using XP equal to the XP cost when the item was created in order to work (you might allow casters to automatically be attuned to any item they create - or you might not).

This sounds a lot like the Weapons of Legacy mechanic. The more I read that book the more I like it unfortunately it is not OGC.

[gazza666]

At no time did I ever state or intend to infer that magic items can’t be sold. Only that there are no “corner magic shops” like there are in many other settings. There is always someone willing to buy things.

Cool, I wasn't really sure on that. You've said before that Cerilia wasn't like Faerun where you could buy any magic item you like, and in the other thread (where I was suggesting Rods of Metamagic as a wizard alternative to taking some metamagic feats) others seemed to agree that the availability of such items was more limited in Cerilia.



The core rules already cover selling magic items (PHB pg 168)

Sure, but the core rules allow you to buy them as well. I think the intention is that (eg) getting a +1 flaming sword should not be as easy as plonking down 8315gp in a "Magic Weapons R Us" store.

But I may well be mistaken here again. Is the intention not to outright forbid the buying of magic items, but rather to just say that it's a little more difficult? For example, is it intended that you can find a private seller, perhaps with appropriate Gather Information checks?



So there is already a mechanic in place to provide incentive to keep magic items found.
As an aside: the "half price" thing for magic items always bothers me. It makes it impossible for a PC wizard to make any money selling magical items, when he can easily do so selling mundane items - that just seems ridiculous. But that's not the fault of Birthright, and while an interesting side topic, I think I've derailed too many threads recently.

But you're absolutely right - the core rules essentially say that if you sell everything and buy the stuff you "want", you're going to lose out in money.


You’ve lost me on this “no room” thing. What do you mean by it?
Sorry, I did kind of skim over that.

What I'm referring to is the "PC Cash by character level". For example, a 5th level PC is expected to have about 9000gp worth of equipment. If you create a 5th level character from scratch, that's the amount of money you get to "spend". The table is in the DMG, page 135.

For example: if you're playing a 5th level rogue, you might reasonably be expected to have (say) a +1 Mithral Chain Shirt, a +1 weapon, a Cloak of Resistance +1, a Ring of Protection +1, and an Amulet of Protection +1. (This is not by any means a "must have" list; some rogues will go for a more powerful weapon and forgo some of the AC stuff; others may prefer to get some Gloves of Dexterity. However, it's a fairly typical list of items). A 5th level rogue with this sort of equipment will have an AC of about 20, an attack bonus of about +8 (assuming Weapon Finesse), and saves of about +2 to +3 (Reflex save will be +8 or +9).

A typical CR5 creature would be a troll, with AC16 and +9 to hit. Against this "typical" rogue, he'll hit 50% of the time with his claws, and be hit in return 70% of the time. There's a fair amount of flexibility in this build. If the rogue decides he'd rather have a Handy Haversack than an Amulet of Natural Armour +1, he's only going to be hit 55% of the time by the troll instead of 50% - that's really not that big a difference, so while the Haversack does not assist his combat abilities in any way, it's the sort of item a lot of PCs tend to get.

However, if you double the cost of magical items, then the same 9000gp buys a lot less. He might go with a Mithril Chain Shirt +1 and +1 weapon, and his left over money isn't enough to buy any of the other items. With an AC of only 18 he gets hit 60% of the time by the troll. Such a character is going to be much less likely to buy something like a Handy Haversack because it would now represent almost 50% of his available cash for the level (rather than the 22% it normally represents) - and at the same time the troll will have an even easier time with the rogue than it would against a rogue in the normal rules who did go for the "fluff".

The upshot is that the more magic items cost, the less non-combat related magic items are likely to be bought. In general, PCs tend to get themselves a decent weapon, decent armour (and other AC boosting equipment), a means to boost their primary ability, and a saving throw boost; then they'll spend the leftover money on items that round out their characters in noncombat situations. If they are strapped for cash - and they will be, if magic items are twice as expensive - then the noncombat stuff will be the first to fall by the wayside, which is unfortunate as such items tend to be more interesting.

Round about this point I suspect I'm offending some people with blatant powergaming observations. I'm sure many of you would keep something like a Scarab of Golembane rather than try to trade it for a Ring of Protection +1. If the power of magic items means nothing to your character, then the above analysis is equally meaningless. But characters like that wouldn't be creating lots of magic items in the first place, regardless of what the costs were. I would argue that changing the price of magic items is, fundamentally, a mechanical change rather than a roleplaying change, and thus it is appropriate to analyse the ramifications in powergaming terms.

Note that it isn't necessarily a bad thing if the result is that "fluff" items like Handy Haversacks or Figurines of Wondrous Power become very uncommon. It's just perhaps not the intended result of the price increase.



What this comes down to the basic role of the DM in the first place. If a DM is not planning and accounting for how things interrelate in his game he is doing everyone (himself included) a disservice. If a Dm is using adventures and rules right off the shelf without looking them over and making necessary “adjustments” he is just asking for trouble.

Well, I don't outright disagree with you here. However, the point of having hundreds of pages of core rules is to make a DM's job easier.

DMing is the hardest job in roleplaying; it can often be a fairly thankless task, and while it is also (at its best) the most rewarding role, we really want to make the job as easy as we can. Changing the assumptions that underly challenge ratings and encounter levels renders the numbers much less reliable, forcing the DM to do a lot more prepwork and on-the-spot changes than would typically be necessary. This is the main beef I have against "low magic" settings - it's not the low magic in and of itself (after all, my all time favourite fantasy heroes are Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser), but rather that D&D (especially 3rd edition) just isn't really constructed well to simulate it. There are (in my opinion) better games if low magic is your thing.

Of course you can make D&D work; that's not in contention. It's merely a question of whether or not the extra effort involved is worth it - especially given that the resulting changes may not actually result in magic items being any rarer (they may just end up less powerful, which means you've got all the problems of balance and haven't ended up with the benefit of a rare magic setting).

This is why I think changing magic items is a superior solution to just making them cost more. At the end of the day, I don't think it really matters that much if PCs have pretty much the same gear as they would in (say) Eberron. PCs are rare; PCs having lots of magical items does not necessarily imply that magic items are not rare, because there's a lot more NPCs than there are PCs. And by requiring "regency recharging" or "attuning" or something similar, you can tie the magic items into the setting - which is surely a highly desirable outcome. Magic items that need regency are immediately unique to Birthright and immediately are also rare, as only scions can recharge them (so PCs that are not scions will have to play nice with the rulers if they want their gear to work).

Though I realise that may be a somewhat radical change with no real precedent in the source material.

[irdeggman]

Cool, I wasn't really sure on that. You've said before that Cerilia wasn't like Faerun where you could buy any magic item you like, and in the other thread (where I was suggesting Rods of Metamagic as a wizard alternative to taking some metamagic feats) others seemed to agree that the availability of such items was more limited in Cerilia.

Yes the point was that they are harder to get and fewer of them (the two go hand in hand).

In settings like FR or Eberron purchasing magic items is a routine thing (essentially magic shops are like 7-11's, IMO).



But I may well be mistaken here again. Is the intention not to outright forbid the buying of magic items, but rather to just say that it's a little more difficult? For example, is it intended that you can find a private seller, perhaps with appropriate Gather Information checks?

I will not go into details on how a DM can handle acquiring magic items. IMO using a Gather Information check may or may not be appriate, but it definitely leads to power gaming if not handled well.


As an aside: the "half price" thing for magic items always bothers me. It makes it impossible for a PC wizard to make any money selling magical items, when he can easily do so selling mundane items - that just seems ridiculous. But that's not the fault of Birthright, and while an interesting side topic, I think I've derailed too many threads recently.

See I read that information in the DM as pertaining to selling "treasure" not to selling items that a PC creates. Now I do know that other people read it as an absolute alos though.


What I'm referring to is the "PC Cash by character level". For example, a 5th level PC is expected to have about 9000gp worth of equipment. If you create a 5th level character from scratch, that's the amount of money you get to "spend". The table is in the DMG, page 135.

Realizing that those are tables essentially for starting at a higher level and not for what a PC has at any point in time.


For example: if you're playing a 5th level rogue, you might reasonably be expected to have (say) a +1 Mithral Chain Shirt, a +1 weapon, a Cloak of Resistance +1, a Ring of Protection +1, and an Amulet of Protection +1. (This is not by any means a "must have" list; some rogues will go for a more powerful weapon and forgo some of the AC stuff; others may prefer to get some Gloves of Dexterity. However, it's a fairly typical list of items). A 5th level rogue with this sort of equipment will have an AC of about 20, an attack bonus of about +8 (assuming Weapon Finesse), and saves of about +2 to +3 (Reflex save will be +8 or +9).

However, if you double the cost of magical items, then the same 9000gp buys a lot less. He might go with a Mithril Chain Shirt +1 and +1 weapon, and his left over money isn't enough to buy any of the other items. With an AC of only 18 he gets hit 60% of the time by the troll. Such a character is going to be much less likely to buy something like a Handy Haversack because it would now represent almost 50% of his available cash for the level (rather than the 22% it normally represents) - and at the same time the troll will have an even easier time with the rogue than it would against a rogue in the normal rules who did go for the "fluff".

Now since every character will have the same restriction (NPCS too) isn't it balanced within itself?



Round about this point I suspect I'm offending some people with blatant powergaming observations. I'm sure many of you would keep something like a Scarab of Golembane rather than try to trade it for a Ring of Protection +1. If the power of magic items means nothing to your character, then the above analysis is equally meaningless. But characters like that wouldn't be creating lots of magic items in the first place, regardless of what the costs were. I would argue that changing the price of magic items is, fundamentally, a mechanical change rather than a roleplaying change, and thus it is appropriate to analyse the ramifications in powergaming terms.

As pointed out previously it is a recognized varaint in "official" WotC products (see Complete Warrior)


Well, I don't outright disagree with you here. However, the point of having hundreds of pages of core rules is to make a DM's job easier.

DMing is the hardest job in roleplaying; it can often be a fairly thankless task, and while it is also (at its best) the most rewarding role, we really want to make the job as easy as we can. Changing the assumptions that underly challenge ratings and encounter levels renders the numbers much less reliable, forcing the DM to do a lot more prepwork and on-the-spot changes than would typically be necessary. This is the main beef I have against "low magic" settings - it's not the low magic in and of itself (after all, my all time favourite fantasy heroes are Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser), but rather that D&D (especially 3rd edition) just isn't really constructed well to simulate it. There are (in my opinion) better games if low magic is your thing.

Of course you can make D&D work; that's not in contention. It's merely a question of whether or not the extra effort involved is worth it - especially given that the resulting changes may not actually result in magic items being any rarer (they may just end up less powerful, which means you've got all the problems of balance and haven't ended up with the benefit of a rare magic setting).

The point is that the DM needs to tailor his encoutners and world to fit his vision and to match the PCs he has. If he hasn't then, well it will definitly go very bad as far as "fun" is.


This is why I think changing magic items is a superior solution to just making them cost more. At the end of the day, I don't think it really matters that much if PCs have pretty much the same gear as they would in (say) Eberron. PCs are rare; PCs having lots of magical items does not necessarily imply that magic items are not rare, because there's a lot more NPCs than there are PCs. And by requiring "regency recharging" or "attuning" or something similar, you can tie the magic items into the setting - which is surely a highly desirable outcome. Magic items that need regency are immediately unique to Birthright and immediately are also rare, as only scions can recharge them (so PCs that are not scions will have to play nice with the rulers if they want their gear to work).

Though I realise that may be a somewhat radical change with no real precedent in the source material.

Tieing magic items to regency will of course eliminate any non-regents (since scions have a bloodline but no regency), any non blooded elf (since they can be wizards without a bloodline) and any other spellcaster from making or using magic items. I don't think that is what you really had in mind.

[gazza666]

Now since every character will have the same restriction (NPCS too) isn't it balanced within itself?

Well, no. For a start, monsters don't typically come with equipment; they are innately tougher, and PCs need equipment to neutralise the advantage.

Of course if you rarely encounter "monsters" instead of "NPCs", that point disappears. Unfortunately, as I've mentioned before, the lack of magic items does not affect all classes equally. Spellcasters are much less affected than non-spellcasters are.



As pointed out previously it is a recognized varaint in "official" WotC products (see Complete Warrior)

True. However, the Complete Warrior has this recommendation as part of a warrior campaign, which is already a significant variant.

And not everything "official" is balanced; Shapechange and Gate are two obvious examples of this. ;)



Tieing magic items to regency will of course eliminate any non-regents (since scions have a bloodline but no regency), any non blooded elf (since they can be wizards without a bloodline) and any other spellcaster from making or using magic items. I don't think that is what you really had in mind.
It's not what I had in mind, but in order to refute your conclusion (which follows logically from your assumptions) I must point out that a world where only regents can "charge" magic items does not mean that only regents can "use" magic items.

If the rule was (say) that a magic item needed to be "gifted" with a number of regency equal to 1 per 1000gp market value every year, say, then a powerful regent could power more items than he needs, to distribute to those who need them. PCs that had no ties to any particular regent get hurt, but is a campaign where PCs never interact with regents at all the "norm" for Birthright?

I've avoided bringing up this until now, but it seems important to point out that the use of the Finance action essentially allows regents to inflate their own wealth to overcome the "twice as expensive" penalty. Regents have a tremendous advantage over non-regents anyway.

[nagebenfro]

Forgive me for adding my thrippence to the discussion here, but I had always felt magic worked quite well as being even rarer than is currenlty being ventured.

Looking through the book, none of the wondrous items even have prices, all have unique names, and they all have singular unique origins.

Im my mind, extrapoling aout from this, birthright magic items are unique, and they all have names and histories, even the loliest longsword +1 might be known as King Edward's Blade, "that was wielded by the king at the mighty battle of X, where he single handedly... etc.", or something along those lines.

Part of that is that most Birthright PCs (in this little fantasy of an "ideal" BR game that I have) never really make it above 5-7th level, so there is also no real danger of the PCs making their own items, or mages getting the kinds of spells that really ruin the massed-army type combats. (cloud kill, for example)

~~~

As for the issue of PCs only being able to sell items for half the retail cost, generally I bend that based on who's buying. If it's the item the party wizard custom made to order, then he gets full price for the item, perhaps along with a fee for his time (and thus XP). I treat it as though the buyer was another PC (who it often can be, tbh). However, if they make X in bulk for the local shoppe, they only get half price for it, becasue the person you are selling them to wants to resell the items for a profit, and can only sell them at roughly the book price.

[gazza666]

Forgive me for adding my thrippence to the discussion here,

The appeal of message boards is that they're open slather; your input is most welcome.



Part of that is that most Birthright PCs (in this little fantasy of an "ideal" BR game that I have) never really make it above 5-7th level, so there is also no real danger of the PCs making their own items, or mages getting the kinds of spells that really ruin the massed-army type combats. (cloud kill, for example)

I completely agree that if your campaign never gets beyond about 10th level, then there aren't any serious issues. You need to keep an eye on damage reduction creatures, but even those aren't really show stoppers.

My own tastes run to higher levels of play, which is typically where the problems start to show.



As for the issue of PCs only being able to sell items for half the retail cost, generally I bend that based on who's buying.

It's not the idea that you have to sell at less than full price I have an issue with. That's just common sense. But selling it for less than cost is silly, IMHO - magical items never spoil, so used ones ought to be just as valuable as new ones (in some cases you could argue that old magic items should sell for more, if they have antique qualities).

Consider that any PC can create a mundane item for 1/3 of the price and sell it for 1/2, thereby making a profit. Why are mundane items profitable (if only marginally) while magic items are not?

From the perspective of the buyer, how does he know whether the PC wizard made it or found it? Having different prices strikes me as not merely metagaming but illogical metagaming at that.

I think a more reasonable price is 75-80% or so. That still leaves a fairly healthy profit margin. Still, what I think and what the core rules say are quite clearly in opposition here - I'm too small a man to change the world. ;)



However, if they make X in bulk for the local shoppe, they only get half price for it, becasue the person you are selling them to wants to resell the items for a profit, and can only sell them at roughly the book price.
Selling them at half price means that they end up with the same amount of gold that they started with, and less XP. Your mileage may vary, but I don't see anyone making anything in bulk under those profit margins. ;)

[nagebenfro]

From the perspective of the buyer, how does he know whether the PC wizard made it or found it? Having different prices strikes me as not merely metagaming but illogical metagaming at that.

The way I handle it (though I may not have explained it properly) is what the buyer wants to do with it when he buys it, not where the seller got it from. I try ot make it that items the buyer wants for resale will be sold for below list price, but items that the buyer wants for personal use will be sold for list price.



I think a more reasonable price is 75-80% or so. That still leaves a fairly healthy profit margin. Still, what I think and what the core rules say are quite clearly in opposition here - I'm too small a man to change the world. ;)

Personally, I agree with you about the not selling items for less than raw cost of production, but I don't like the idea of letting players turn a profit for making magic items. I perfer to keep them adventuring. If they want their character to be able to make good money making items, then that character ought not be adventuring; but p'raps thats me being predjuced again.

[gazza666]

but I don't like the idea of letting players turn a profit for making magic items. I perfer to keep them adventuring.
I'm with you, but the thing is players can turn a profit by crafting mundane items. That's even more boring (it takes longer, for one*), but that's allowed. There's more of an inbuilt balance for magic items (eventually they'll run out of XP); seems silly not to allow any profit at all.

*Unless they have Fabricate...

[irdeggman]

I'm with you, but the thing is players can turn a profit by crafting mundane items. That's even more boring (it takes longer, for one*), but that's allowed. There's more of an inbuilt balance for magic items (eventually they'll run out of XP); seems silly not to allow any profit at all.

*Unless they have Fabricate...

But then they have taken themselves out of adventuring so if the player wants to play a craftsman that only stays in town and never adventures (or almost never) then he can. His PC will not advance in level and if he is part of a "party" unless all of the players are running craftsmen then they will "leave" the PC and go off adventuring.

You basically can only craft one thing at a time since the progressed measured reflects that.

You also can't take 20 on a craft check, although you can take 10.

[irdeggman]

I completely agree that if your campaign never gets beyond about 10th level, then there aren't any serious issues. You need to keep an eye on damage reduction creatures, but even those aren't really show stoppers.

My own tastes run to higher levels of play, which is typically where the problems start to show.

And at higher levels is where things in the core rules start to break down also. Wizards and other spellcasters start to out perform fighters a lot.

That was the main reason for the up powered fighter feats in PHB II by the way. While many people have commented on the fact that those feats seem to be overpowered they have fogotten that they are geared for higher level fighters.

[irdeggman]

A way I like to handle trade (buying and selling) at the character level is to use the NPCs attitude and Diplomacy.

Since there are no current rules for bartering (something people have brought up on other boards) I use the attitude system and diplomacy to adjust the attitude accordingly (if possible).

PC selling items:

Attitude of buyer/% of listed market price paid

Hostile/ won't buy
Unfriendly/ won't buy
Indifferent/ 25%
Friendly/50%
Helpful/75%


PC buying items:

Attitude of seller/% of listed market price PC must pay

Hostile/ won't sell
Unfriendly/ 150%
Indifferent/ 125%
Friendly/ list price
Helpful/ 75%

What this does is always reflect a profit ratio for the middleman (i.e., the vender) but yet reflects the relative attitude towards the PC. This attitude should be an individual attitude and not a general one. Venders would start out as Indifferent normally. Past history, differences in races/cultures should have an effect on the starting attitude and any subsequent checks made to adjust it.

[gazza666]

But then they have taken themselves out of adventuring so if the player wants to play a craftsman that only stays in town and never adventures (or almost never) then he can. His PC will not advance in level and if he is part of a "party" unless all of the players are running craftsmen then they will "leave" the PC and go off adventuring.

Someone crafting magical items takes themselves out of adventuring as well, so I don't really see why they can't make a profit at it.

If you're playing regent level Birthright, I would have thought that there would be bound to be times when one player has a free character action while the others do not. If he uses this action to practice his craft, profession, or art, he turns a small profit for the month. If he uses it to make a magical item for sale, then he comes out behind.



You basically can only craft one thing at a time since the progressed measured reflects that.

I don't see any reason you couldn't craft more than one thing at a time, but you wouldn't save any time over crafting them in series. Certainly it's simpler to say that they can only craft one thing at a time, though.


You also can't take 20 on a craft check, although you can take 10.
Taking 10 is typically enough. It isn't particularly difficult to get a +10 Craft check for even a fairly low level character, which is enough to make masterwork items - the benefits of anything higher than +10 are subject to diminishing returns.

I'm certainly not suggesting that Craftsman & Carpenters is a particularly exciting idea for a new RPG based on the d20 rules. :) But in some forms of play in Birthright it seems quite likely that you will have "downtime", so crafting becomes something that might be done on occasion. I think that if you can make money crafting mundane items, I see no really compelling reason why you can't make it crafting magical items. And if you can indeed sell magical items for more than what it costs you to make them, I don't see any logical reason why a buyer would necessarily discriminate between something you crafted and something you hauled out of a hole in the ground. If anything, the latter is less unbalancing - you have total control over how many magical items are found, while you cannot control a PC using item creation feats to the same degree.

[irdeggman]

If you're playing regent level Birthright, I would have thought that there would be bound to be times when one player has a free character action while the others do not. If he uses this action to practice his craft, profession, or art, he turns a small profit for the month. If he uses it to make a magical item for sale, then he comes out behind.

IMO this will happen a whole lot less often than you imagine.

If the regent is not using his character action for the domain action then he can't not apply any personal bonuses to the action (i.e., from skill ranks, feats, etc.)



I don't see any reason you couldn't craft more than one thing at a time, but you wouldn't save any time over crafting them in series. Certainly it's simpler to say that they can only craft one thing at a time, though.

For magic items it is specified that only 1 at a time can be worked on, it doesn't state this specifically for normal items but the logic and flow of checks is consistent for both.



Taking 10 is typically enough. It isn't particularly difficult to get a +10 Craft check for even a fairly low level character, which is enough to make masterwork items - the benefits of anything higher than +10 are subject to diminishing returns.

Let's see +3 due to ability score and then a +7 due to skill ranks (minimum level of 4th level to get 7 ranks (level +3 for max ranks).

[irdeggman]

I'm certainly not suggesting that Craftsman & Carpenters is a particularly exciting idea for a new RPG based on the d20 rules. :) But in some forms of play in Birthright it seems quite likely that you will have "downtime", so crafting becomes something that might be done on occasion. I think that if you can make money crafting mundane items, I see no really compelling reason why you can't make it crafting magical items. And if you can indeed sell magical items for more than what it costs you to make them, I don't see any logical reason why a buyer would necessarily discriminate between something you crafted and something you hauled out of a hole in the ground. If anything, the latter is less unbalancing - you have total control over how many magical items are found, while you cannot control a PC using item creation feats to the same degree.

Now it takes a real ong time to craft items. There has been a lot of discussion about how long the time period is to make masterwork items.


Base requirements form the SRD:


All crafts require artisan’s tools to give the best chance of success. If improvised tools are used, the check is made with a –2 circumstance penalty. On the other hand, masterwork artisan’s tools provide a +2 circumstance bonus on the check.
To determine how much time and money it takes to make an item, follow these steps.
1. Find the item’s price. Put the price in silver pieces (1 gp = 10 sp).
2. Find the DC from the table below.
3. Pay one-third of the item’s price for the cost of raw materials.
4. Make an appropriate Craft check representing one week’s work. If the check succeeds, multiply your check result by the DC. If the result × the DC equals the price of the item in sp, then you have completed the item. (If the result × the DC equals double or triple the price of the item in silver pieces, then you’ve completed the task in one-half or one-third of the time. Other multiples of the DC reduce the time in the same manner.) If the result × the DC doesn’t equal the price, then it represents the progress you’ve made this week. Record the result and make a new Craft check for the next week. Each week, you make more progress until your total reaches the price of the item in silver pieces.
If you fail a check by 4 or less, you make no progress this week.
If you fail by 5 or more, you ruin half the raw materials and have to pay half the original raw material cost again.
Progress by the Day: You can make checks by the day instead of by the week. In this case your progress (check result × DC) is in copper pieces instead of silver pieces.
Creating Masterwork Items: You can make a masterwork item—a weapon, suit of armor, shield, or tool that conveys a bonus on its use through its exceptional craftsmanship, not through being magical. To create a masterwork item, you create the masterwork component as if it were a separate item in addition to the standard item. The masterwork component has its own price (300 gp for a weapon or 150 gp for a suit of armor or a shield) and a Craft DC of 20. Once both the standard component and the masterwork component are completed, the masterwork item is finished. Note: The cost you pay for the masterwork component is one-third of the given amount, just as it is for the cost in raw materials.

Time it takes to craft an item.

Example: masterwork longsword.

Assumptions:

+10 to check (includes set of masterwork tools – no tools at all equates to a –2 on check).

Taking 10 on all checks.

Craft skill check result: 20

Craft DCs:

Martial weapon (longsword) – Craft (weaponsmithing): DC 15

Masterwork component: DC 20

Market price for longsword: 15 gp (150 sp)

Masterwork component: 300 gp (3000 sp)

First craft the sword:

Need to make 150 sp progress to complete.

DC check of 20 exceeds the 15 required so it is a success.

Progress made (in a week) = 20 (check result) x 15 (DC of check) = 300 sp worth of progress in a week so item is complete in 1 week’s time.

Masterwork component:

Need to make 3000 sp of progress to complete.

DC check of20 equals the DC of 20 to create so it is a success.

Progress made in (in a week)= 20 x 20 = 400 sp worth in a week.

So it will take 8 week to complete the masterwork component. The only conditions that allow the amount of time to be reduced is if the craft check exceeds the craft DC by double or triple (double takes half the time and triple takes one-third). In this cast it is impossible to get double or triple the DC with a craft check. You would need a +20 to get double for the base DC and +30 to get double for the masterwork portion.

Total time to craft would be 9 weeks and it would cost 105 gp in raw materials and the item could be sold for 315 gp to yield a profit of 210 gp for 9 weeks worth of dedicated work.

[gazza666]

IMO this will happen a whole lot less often than you imagine.

If the regent is not using his character action for the domain action then he can't not apply any personal bonuses to the action (i.e., from skill ranks, feats, etc.)

(shrug) That's not my experience. Of the three regents in the game we're currently playing, only my (source) regent frequently uses his character action. The other two often spend them to train up hit points or practice their Craft for cash. We don't the skill bonuses to domain actions to be much of an incentive, and the really good feats (Master Administrator, for example) now require you to be 5th level before you can take them due to the skill ranks requirement.



Let's see +3 due to ability score and then a +7 due to skill ranks (minimum level of 4th level to get 7 ranks (level +3 for max ranks).
+2 for good tools lowers that to only 2nd level; if you have a lieutenant to help out, you can get Aid Another for another +2. And if you're truly desperate, there's always Skill Focus.

[gazza666]

Now it takes a real ong time to craft items. There has been a lot of discussion about how long the time period is to make masterwork items.

This is interesting.

My understanding is that the 1/3 base price you pay for materials counts towards the completion of the item, so the actual time requirement is 2/3 what you calculated. You may well be more correct here; that's just the way we've generally played it.

It's also worth pointing out that you would only get half price when you sold it, as far as the core rules are concerned. You still make a profit, but only a small one.

In any case, I'm not sure what the argument is. Does it take a long time? Sure. I wasn't disputing that. My experience is that this time is often available, though, since from a practical perspective the regents want to go on adventures together, and in any month where not everyone has a character action free, the ones that do might as well do something constructive. If your experience is that regents tend to always need/use their character action to get a skill or feat boost to their domain actions, then clearly Birthright is played in different ways by different groups.

[gazza666]

Incidentally, the amount that a regent can earn in a month with the "ply trade" action is kind of strange. Firstly, you have the "Average" column, in the case of a Journeyman, being higher than any journeyman would earn (they earn 5gp * bonus, and the max bonus for a journeyman is only +9).

Secondly... let's look at a few examples for Weaponsmiths. An apprentice weaponsmith (with +5 skill) can make a longsword (martial melee weapon, DC15) in 2/3 of a week; to put it another way, he can make 6 of them per month. It will cost him 30gp, and he'll sell them (to some unscrupulous merchant) for half price, getting 45gp and earning a 15gp profit. The table says he'd get 10gp, but that's OK - the 5gp can be written off as his living expenses for the month (or whatever his master skims off the top).

For a journeyman, it's better to put him on the exotic stuff. Keeping to the sword theme, let's say our journeyman (+8 skill) is making bastard swords for the month. He can make about 3.7 of these per month, clearing a profit of a little over 20gp. That's not so good; this is only half what the table says he should be able to earn. If you assume he can sell the swords at full price instead of half price, then he earns over 85gp in the month, which is too far in the opposite direction (it's now double what he "should" earn).

Moving along to masters, they make masterwork bastard swords. With a skill of +10, they can pump out about 0.47 of a sword each month, making a profit of about 25gp per month (selling at half price) or 105gp per month (at full price); well under the 200gp per month the table suggests they get.

Is the table supposed to include the possibility of training apprentices and the like? If the master craftsman is being paid to train apprentices as well as the raw profits from his goods, then I can see the figures working out OK.

Of course D&D has the issue in that realistically some crafts and professions would be more profitable than others. For game balance reasons they chose to equate them all. If you wanted to make some professions or crafts harder, the obvious answer is to raise the DCs required to make (eg) armour or jewellery - but given that most PCs aren't going to be using these skills very often, the level of abstraction works out OK for most games.

[irdeggman]

This is interesting.

My understanding is that the 1/3 base price you pay for materials counts towards the completion of the item, so the actual time requirement is 2/3 what you calculated. You may well be more correct here; that's just the way we've generally played it.

Nope check out the text in the PHB on where to get the price from that is used to determine the progress.

Pg 70 (PHB)


1. Find the item’s price in Chapter 7: Equipment of this book or in the Dungeon Master’s Guide, or have the DM set the price for an item not otherwise described. Put the price in silver pieces (1 gp = 10 sp).



It's also worth pointing out that you would only get half price when you sold it, as far as the core rules are concerned. You still make a profit, but only a small one.

Technically it is only for treasure (PHB pg 167-168 and also pg 70 - if there is some where else that talks about selling things for less than market value other than treasure or loot please point it out to me).


In any case, I'm not sure what the argument is. Does it take a long time? Sure. I wasn't disputing that. My experience is that this time is often available, though, since from a practical perspective the regents want to go on adventures together, and in any month where not everyone has a character action free, the ones that do might as well do something constructive. If your experience is that regents tend to always need/use their character action to get a skill or feat boost to their domain actions, then clearly Birthright is played in different ways by different groups.

Well I have already pointed out that source regents need to personally perform their domain actions involving sources so since they are for themost part those in question with magic items they "don't have a lot of character actins available.

And I did not state "always" need to use thier personal actions I stated that in order to gain the benefits from their skill ranks and feats they need to personally perform said actions. This in and of itself will force regents to pick and choose when to use full domain actions instead of standard domain actions - becasue when it is a really important domain action then they will try to use every benefit they have. Thus they will most likely not have character actions available all of the time.

[irdeggman]

Secondly... let's look at a few examples for Weaponsmiths. An apprentice weaponsmith (with +5 skill) can make a longsword (martial melee weapon, DC15) in 2/3 of a week; to put it another way, he can make 6 of them per month.

There is an error in your calculations. As I pointed out earlier you don't get credit for partial weeks. The craft check is done on a weekly basis with only decreasing the time required if the check is doubled or tripled.

So at most a craftman can make a single item in a week, unless he has high enough skill modifier to get to double or triple the check DC.

[gazza666]

Technically it is only for treasure (PHB pg 167-168 and also pg 70 - if there is some where else that talks about selling things for less than market value other than treasure or loot please point it out to me).

Sure. PH, 113 says: "In general, a character can sell something for half its listed price. Characters who want to upgrade to better armor or weaponry, for example, can sell their old equipment for half price." (it then proceeds to name trade goods as the only exception to this rule).

That's pretty clear, but in any case there's no "treasure" label on goods that PCs sell. To a prospective buyer, what is the difference?



Well I have already pointed out that source regents need to personally perform their domain actions involving sources so since they are for themost part those in question with magic items they "don't have a lot of character actions available.

Well, source regents will typically be wizards. I've never yet met a wizard PC that was happy with the 2 spells per level they got for free; most will want to have more spells in their books than that. Even if they buy (or otherwise acquire) scrolls rather than perform the research themselves, that still takes a few days - so they can't be spending every month using their character action for domain actions. Magic item creation, at least at low levels, is fairly quick - a wizard could quite feasibly bung out a few scrolls every so often.



And I did not state "always" need to use thier personal actions I stated that in order to gain the benefits from their skill ranks and feats they need to personally perform said actions.

You said it in response to my assertion that they would have character actions available from time to time; the implication was that this would happen fairly rarely. If that was not the intended implication then my apologies; I was simply responding that in my experience it wasn't at all rare for regents to have character actions free.

[gazza666]

There is an error in your calculations. As I pointed out earlier you don't get credit for partial weeks. The craft check is done on a weekly basis with only decreasing the time required if the check is doubled or tripled.

I see where you're getting that, but I don't agree. It is my interpretation that the "double or triple" are examples, not intended to be exclusive. I don't think it means to exclude, for example, that if you get quadruple the result you don't save any time at all. It's true that the numbers are easier to work with if you keep it to "nice" fractions, but I see that more as a matter of convenience rather than an actual "inefficiency rule".

For example, my masterwork smith example:

Week 1: 40/300 progress toward masterwork component.
Week 2: 80/300 progress toward masterwork component.
Week 3: 120/300 progress toward masterwork component.
Week 4: 160/300 progress toward masterwork component.
...
Week 7: 280/300 progress toward masterwork component.

In week 8, he earns 400sp progress and he only needs 200sp, so he finishes the masterwork portion in half the week. The rest of the week, he earns 18/35 progress towards the non-masterwork portion. He'll clearly finish it in less than half a week at week 9.

Of course, even if we do assume you're right, that makes the actual profit per month even lower for the master craftsman - the table becomes even more incorrect (unless we're assuming he's training apprentices or something for part of his income).

[ploesch]

A note on selling Magic Items. In my Campaigns I've never used the sell magic Items for 1/2 rule. I have Magic Shops in normal campaigns, and Auction Houses and so forth, but I have Mechanics set up for all of it.

First off, you have to determine if the PC's are going to try an sell the item themselves or go through an intermediary.

If they sell it themselves, then you have a Roleplaying oportunity, and should reward them appropriately. I will eventualy let them meet the guy, then we do roleplaying, and have some fun, as each side tries to build up bonuses to their Diplomacy check (what I use for the eventual bargain roll). In the end we do an opposed check. For each point the PC's win the roll, increase the value by 5% for each point up until +100% value, for each point they lose by decrease the value of the item by 5% up to 50% value. As an asside, my players know that if they don't sell it now they won't have anyone interested in this item until after their next adventure at the earliest, so if they need the money, they will sell it. it's the chance they take. :) Since this is an adventure, it will take some time.

Now, on Auction Houses, they are only avaiable in Major cities (province 5 or better in Birthright), and there Items will always be bid on, as long as their starting price isn't too low (see Below). With the AH, I generally have them chose a minimum bid. I then will give a roll to determine what % someone is willing to pay for it (D20x5+10%). The players can increase the roll (or decrease) by roleplaying and advertising what their selling. I have given bonuses up to +10 (50%) for this activity, I leave it up to the GM's to figure out what they want to do. As I said, in an AH I garantee there is interested parties, more than one, so the PC's only need to set their minimum bid below what I roll for the sell value to sell the item. If it doesn't sell, well AH only happens once a month, and so their only recourse is role-playing with an established baseline value, and a couple leads. The AH takes 5-15% depending on where they are, and what contats they have. I always have the AH available when the PC's are ready, but no more than once a month. This is one of the quikest ways to unload stuff.

The last option is hiring someone to sell it. This person will take 25% of what they sell it for, but are master bargainers. Depending on the size of the city, that will determine the chance of finding an interested party. Use Domain level to make the determination (level x 10%), to determine if there is an interested party, keep rolling until you fail, there can be a number of people interested, up to 10, or the province level. Each person gives him a +1 Roll on his bargaining check. Basically I make this guy maxed out for his bargaining skill, then make a roll with all the modifiers, and use that to determine what he sells it for ((Roll x5%)x110%=Sold value). The PC's can set a minimum, and he will keep trying until he sells it. Each month he starts over from scratch (redetermine all values)

Now, I wasn't wholly truthful when I said I don't use the 1/2 value rule. The PC always have the option of selling it to a shop that will pay up to Half the value of the item (maybe more if it's something that would definetely sell). They just rarely do that since it's less profitable, and far less fun.

[irdeggman]

Sure. PH, 113 says: "In general, a character can sell something for half its listed price. Characters who want to upgrade to better armor or weaponry, for example, can sell their old equipment for half price." (it then proceeds to name trade goods as the only exception to this rule).

That's pretty clear, but in any case there's no "treasure" label on goods that PCs sell. To a prospective buyer, what is the difference?

Well now we would be discussing the difference between reason and requirments or logic and rules.

I won't diagree with the logic but I also don't think it was intended to have characters that create items (magic or mundane) to lose money on the deal or to make less than the market price on a normal situation.


Well, source regents will typically be wizards. I've never yet met a wizard PC that was happy with the 2 spells per level they got for free; most will want to have more spells in their books than that. Even if they buy (or otherwise acquire) scrolls rather than perform the research themselves, that still takes a few days - so they can't be spending every month using their character action for domain actions. Magic item creation, at least at low levels, is fairly quick - a wizard could quite feasibly bung out a few scrolls every so often.

[/quote]

Yup he could - minimum 1 day per item.

But once you use your character action to create itmes then you can't use that character action for any other type of action. No adventuring no spell research, etc.

[gazza666]

There is an error in your calculations. As I pointed out earlier you don't get credit for partial weeks. The craft check is done on a weekly basis with only decreasing the time required if the check is doubled or tripled.

OK, sorry, I see what you're getting at here; you're not critiquing my mastersmith example, you're going after the apprentice. :)

I'm still not really convinced that it breaks anything to allow fractions like "2/3 of a week", but for the sake of the example let's instead assume the apprentice was making Falchions instead. At 75gp:

Week 1: 225/750
Week 2: 450/750
Week 3: 675/750

He needs 75sp to finish it, which means that he can finish it in 1/3 of week 4. It takes him 3 1/3 weeks to make a falchion, so he can make 1.2 of them each month; each one nets him 12.5gp profit, so that's a total of 15gp profit per month (the same as before, unsurprisingly).

OK, I suppose you could argue that if he finds himself finishing a sword with 2/3 of the week left he's not allowed to start another one, but frankly I don't really see the merit of that argument. He could spend 9 weeks getting three falchions to the 675/750 stage and then finish all three in the 10th week.

Basically if you want to insist that only "double" and "triple" matter, then craftsmen have to carefully select whatever item is closest to a multiple of their take 10 check * the DC to make it (for the apprentice, if there was a martial weapon that cost 45gp or 90gp there would be no issues at all, and it seems silly that weapons can be more or less efficient to create based on a rounding error).

[gazza666]

I won't diagree with the logic but I also don't think it was intended to have characters that create items (magic or mundane) to lose money on the deal or to make less than the market price on a normal situation.

I think we at least partially agree here; that's why I don't use the "50% rule".





a wizard could quite feasibly bung out a few scrolls every so often.


Yup he could - minimum 1 day per item.

But once you use your character action to create itmes then you can't use that character action for any other type of action. No adventuring no spell research, etc.
Eh? That seems in stark contradiction to the chapter 5's definition of the "Research" character action:



You learn spells, perform spell research or create a magical item. Spellcasting regents may learn or research conventional spells, research realm spells, make magical items, or perform other such tasks.

(spelling out multiple activities that this encompasses)

and

This time can be spent on multiple magical activities (should time allow).

It's not sanctioned, I know, but if there is a change in the works intending to remove the option for multiple activities in this 32 day period I'm at a loss to understand why that would be desirable. It takes a full month (at least) to research a realm spell, but normal spell research should be able to be combined with item creation. Indeed:



For each full week of time not spent in specific research, you make one-quarter of the monthly amount that you would make Plying Trade.

it seems you can even combine it with mundane item creation.

[gazza666]

A note on selling Magic Items. In my Campaigns I've never used the sell magic Items for 1/2 rule. I have Magic Shops in normal campaigns, and Auction Houses and so forth, but I have Mechanics set up for all of it.
(snip!)
These rules look pretty good! They remind (in a very loose fashion) of the rules for trading in Traveller (the old black book set, although I think The New Era and Marc Miller's Traveller use similar rules).

If I might suggest one possible change (really to enlist your opinion rather than to disagree), you might want to make it a Profession: Merchant based thing rather than Diplomacy. I say this because Diplomacy already has a lot of uses; with the typical amount of item selling that goes on in my campaigns, I'm not sure it's a good idea to add even more features to Diplomacy. Diplomacy could be used to make the buyer's attitude better, which might give a bonus (or penalty, if it ends up worse) to the Profession: Merchant check. What do you think?

[dalor]

I agree...PCs are above and beyond the "common" mold,
even above the Regents that rule the various domains.
They are "heroes" first and last; so they should not
be bound by all the "common" things...

I think that it is perfectly easy for a DM to have a
low/rare magic world with heroes that are larger than
life.

I don`t agree with doubling the price of magic items,
it only makes it easier for the wealthy and powerful
such as the Gorgon to dominate any magical encounter
simply because he has more money and XP to burn than
anyone else...and will thus have more and better magic
at his disposal.


Anthony Edwards

--- gazza666 <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:
This is why I think changing magic items is a superior
solution to just
making them cost more. At the end of the day, I don`t
think it really
matters that much if PCs have pretty much the same
gear as they would in
(say) Eberron. PCs are rare; PCs having lots of
magical items does not
necessarily imply that magic items are not rare,
because there`s a lot
more NPCs than there are PCs. And by requiring
"regency recharging" or
"attuning" or something similar, you can tie the magic
items into the
setting - which is surely a highly desirable outcome.
Magic items that
need regency are immediately unique to Birthright and
immediately are
also rare, as only scions can recharge them (so PCs
that are not scions
will have to play nice with the rulers if they want
their gear to work).

Though I realise that may be a somewhat radical change
with no real
precedent in the source material.
-----------------------------------------------------


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[ploesch]

(snip!)
These rules look pretty good! They remind (in a very loose fashion) of the rules for trading in Traveller (the old black book set, although I think The New Era and Marc Miller's Traveller use similar rules).

If I might suggest one possible change (really to enlist your opinion rather than to disagree), you might want to make it a Profession: Merchant based thing rather than Diplomacy. I say this because Diplomacy already has a lot of uses; with the typical amount of item selling that goes on in my campaigns, I'm not sure it's a good idea to add even more features to Diplomacy. Diplomacy could be used to make the buyer's attitude better, which might give a bonus (or penalty, if it ends up worse) to the Profession: Merchant check. What do you think?

That's a great idea. I use Diplomacy because it's something that can be used untrained, which is kinda the point. but I'm sure there are better or more appropriate skills that can be used, and perhaps have Diplomacy, appraisal, acting, lying, etc give situation bonuses, based on the situation. The truth is I recently got back into a regular game after about a year hiatus, and we're playing 2 ed BirthRight, so I didn't have a book nearby to look at skills, I may have been using another skill besides diplomacy. Profession: Merchant is a great idea, and if untrained, I suppose other skills could be used with a situation modifier of -1 to -5 depending on the situation.

I ran out of time while writing that this morning, so I was hurried, and didn't get all my thoughts down. I added a section I forgot.