Realm Spell Saving Throws

[gazza666]

I'm not sure I understand the saving throws for some Realm spells.

Having been recently "desourced" by an upstart province ruler that increased his population, I've decided I want revenge. The spell Death Plague seems like the ticket, but I'm not sure what the Saving Throw and Spell Resistance lines mean.

The description of the spell says that the province will lose one level, but it also allows spell resistance and saving throws. Is this just for specific individuals within the province, or everyone? If it's everyone - and you figure out the percentage of the population that will make the save - what percentage must die in order for the province level to drop?

[irdeggman]

Unless otherwise stated in the spell, the saving throws and SR apply only to "individuals".

In the case of Death Plague the saving throw/SR would apply if the DM wanted to determine if an individual was affected, someone like say the province ruler. Normally you wouldn't go into that much detail but it could be done. And if this kind of detail was being done then the saving throw would also come into play.

The province, as a whole is affected by the spell so essentially no saving throw to determine if the province polulation (as whole) is affected. Now it is possible to research (i.e, create) Realm Spells that provide SR and the like - in which cast those numbers would need to be used.

Since this spell requires a Source 5 - it should be really powerful - there aren't all that many level 5 source holdings available in Cerilia, except for elven lands and since the spell is necromantic elves aren't going to be casting it in the first place.



Saving throws and Spell resistance

If the spell affects individuals, spell resistance and/or a saving throw may apply. Spell resistance applies normally except that the spell resistance check is not rolled. Over the intensive and lasting period of a realm spell effect, the caster gets an average result. The spell resistance check is made as if the regent spell caster had rolled a "10" on the check. Thus, spell resistance succeeds only for creatures having SR greater than 10 + caster level.
Realm spells that allow saving throws have a DC 10 + realm spell level + the caster's spell-casting attribute. Spells that affect military units may receive unit saving throws (refer to Chapter Six: Warfare).


Death Plague

Necromancy
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Target: up to 1 province/2 levels
Duration: Instantaneous, one province per month (see text) (D)
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
Special Requirements: Source (5)
You create a magical pestilence of epidemic proportions. Residents of affected provinces are exposed to Slimy Doom (see the Dungeon Master's Guide: Diseases). Any province affected by the death plague suffers massive population loss and loses one province level.
The death plague affects one province in the month in which it is cast. In each following month, the plague moves to an adjacent province as directed by the caster. For every two levels of experience past the minimum caster level (5th level for wizards), you affect an additional adjacent province. For the purposes of resolving timing conflicts, the effects of the death plague are instantaneous. Dispelling a death plague after it has taken its toll in a province will not bring the dead back to life, but it will prevent the plague from spreading further.
Death plague dispels and counters bless land.
Regency Cost: The Regency Cost is equal to the sum of the total levels of all provinces affected. Thus, a 7th level wizard casting the spell starting in a province (4) and spreading to a province (3) must pay 7 RP.
Material Components: 2 GB worth of expendable ritual components.

[gazza666]

Since this spell requires a Source 5 - it should be really powerful - there aren't all that many level 5 source holdings available in Cerilia, except for elven lands and since the spell is necromantic elves aren't going to be casting it in the first place.
What have elves got against Necromancy? Did I miss something again? Is it just death magic they're against? Are all elves supposed to be good guys? Heck, I was planning on using Legion of Dead pretty frequently as well - doesn't seem much point to being an elf if you're not allowed to cast the cool spells.

Granted this is not a particularly nice thing to do, but my character (who is an elf) did warn the guy that this sort of thing would happen. Frankly, I think I'm letting him off lightly by restricting myself to the province in question - but then, I'm a merciful sort of person. :)

[RaspK_FOG]

It's not about playing the good guys or not; it just so happens that Necromancy and Conjuration (Summoning) spells, the ones the Sidhelien are against the use of, are "powered" by the Shadow World, and they find this so perverse, what with their connection to Aebrynis, that they believe it to be unacceptable to use those kinds of spells; Sidhelien who use such spells generally become outcasts, but they may as well get hunted if they go overboard in the application of such magic.

[irdeggman]

What have elves got against Necromancy? Did I miss something again? Is it just death magic they're against? Are all elves supposed to be good guys? Heck, I was planning on using Legion of Dead pretty frequently as well - doesn't seem much point to being an elf if you're not allowed to cast the cool spells.

Granted this is not a particularly nice thing to do, but my character (who is an elf) did warn the guy that this sort of thing would happen. Frankly, I think I'm letting him off lightly by restricting myself to the province in question - but then, I'm a merciful sort of person. :)

Read Chapter 3 in more detail.


Elves
The first to have embraced magic, the elves remember a time when they alone understood the secrets of mebhaighl. Magic is as familiar and non-threatening to them as windmills and waterwheels are to humans. While all Sidhelien have within them the potential to wield true magic, only a few experience a calling to become a mage. Thus, while magic is familiar to the Sidhelien, even among them it is not commonplace. Sidhelien mages hold positions of respect and influence in their communities equal to that afforded any well-trained and learned teacher, leader, or artist. Elven spells are sung, not chanted, and the beauty of their spells has been known to bring listeners to tears.
Elves favor the schools of enchantment and illusion as these magics cause the least disruption to the natural flow of mebhaighl. Elves are particularly fond of spells that bring them closer to nature. Sidhelien spellcasters favor spells that allow them to vanquish foes or accomplish a feat without risking any damage to nature.
Elves disfavor the schools of evocation and conjuration, particularly distaining spells that create an overt force of mebhaighl into the environment. This disfavor does not extend to transmutations spells, which are considered to be a bending – not a breaking – of natural laws.
Elves shun the school of necromancy absolutely. An elf who even dabbles in death magics faces the censure of his peers and risks ostracism from the community. Elves practice great caution when casting spells that could harm nature. Elves have been known to hunt down spellcasters, including other elves, who have ruined nature with their carelessness.

Ceilian elves have a strong tie to nature and the natural order of things. This tie can be seen as part of the reason that they can exceed the rules for polulation and source levels of provinces. Necromancy and conjuration are seen as things that "force" nature into unatural ways.

Evocation - is well dangerous to the environement (fireball in the forest anyone?)

[RaspK_FOG]

I stand corrected. :o

[gazza666]

This is an absolutely crippling limitation on elves. It means, amongst other things, that their only source of healing (rangers) face being outcast if they cast Cure Light Wounds. Many of the more powerful spells are necromantic or conjuration spells; denying access to these limits elven wizards to essentially casting variants on Fireball at high levels.

Fortunately it's only in the roleplaying notes rather than the mechanical restrictions - so I can (and will) ignore it. :)

[RaspK_FOG]

Sorry if I sound harsh but did you realise you are contradicting almost everything irdeggman mentioned? Healing spells are, as it seems, not of the necromantic school, and the things that are disdainful to the sidhelien are not set in stone apart from Necromancy; in fact, Evocation and Conjuration is OK unless you go into grossly "perversing" ground, like Summoning spells and the use of destructive magic in areas of natural growth. So, in fact, it's more likely that elves don't cast YAF (Yet Another Fireball).

(And, yes, source material actually says that the elves LACKED healing in general.)

[gazza666]

Sorry if I sound harsh but did you realise you are contradicting almost everything irdeggman mentioned? Healing spells are, as it seems, not of the necromantic school,

Conjuration (Healing). Conjuration and Evocation are also singled out as being something that elves avoid.


in fact, Evocation and Conjuration is OK unless you go into grossly "perversing" ground, like Summoning spells and the use of destructive magic in areas of natural growth. So, in fact, it's more likely that elves don't cast YAF (Yet Another Fireball).

Chapter 3 does not say that one type of conjuration is OK and another is not. And not all necromancy involves death magic either; Blindness/Deafness is a relatively common spells for a low level sorcerer to use, whilst Ray of Enfeeblement hardly associates you with evil forest destroying cultists.

Has anyone considered the effects of such a suggestion (I avoid the word "rule" because it doesn't seem to have that status) upon game balance? You end up with sorcerers that cannot cast Magic Missile, you're denied access to the Wall series of spells, you can't use any form of teleportation or planar travel, you're unable to make sure someone stays dead (via Soul Bind - arguably a case whereby using Necromancy supports the natural order)... whilst such nature-violating spells as Awaken, Giant Vermin, Plant Growth, and so forth are all fine (and available to elven wizards or sorcerers, according to a sanctioned variant). In addition, that same sanctioned variant seems to contradict this idea, as it adds Tree Strike and Shambler as elven spells (both of which are Conjuration - one even summons creatures).

I suppose you could argue that this encourages players to be more creative, but that sort of thing is better achieved with a carrot than a stick. Without a good selection of alternative spells for elven wizards or sorcerers to use instead of traditional staples (does anyone seriously dispute that Magic Missile and Fireball fall into this category?), this is arguably just an arbitrary removal of three of the four most powerful schools of magic from the world's primary arcane masters (Transmutation is the only school that rivals these three). Enchantment spells are largely ineffective at high levels; Transmutation spells suffer from very poor mechanics at mid-high levels (I refer primarily to the Polymorph series of spells which are, in essence, just broken - only Rich Burlew seems to have playable variants); Abjuration, Divination, and Illusion spells lack offensive punch (in the latter case: unless they mimic evocation or conjuration spells, but that is presumably even more horrible).

I can see why nature lovers might be against undead - that's not exactly a new idea - but given that the core nature loving class in the game has a broad selection of evocation and conjuration spells, it seems silly that these fall under any sort of restriction (if druids don't think that summoning things is bad, why do elves?) If it's a Shadow World thing, then why don't they have a problem with illusion spells?

It just seems to me that such a restriction would make sorcerers largely unplayable (at least in their traditional role, and if you abandon that traditional role then you have difficulty justifying a sorcerer over a wizard), and wizards seriously underpowered. The effect of such restrictions would logically be that elves would develop spells that fulfilled the same sort of role but based on largely transmutation instead; in general, anything that encourages the process of creating spells that are the same as other spells with only the school changed should be avoided (as it makes a mockery of specialising, for example).

One could quite reasonably argue that arcane magic is, in general, a violation of the natural order - but elves don't seem to reason that way. Surely it makes more sense to treat magic as "neutral", and how you use that magic to be the important factor. Thus, someone using Burning Hands to burn down a forest is a bad elf; someone using Fireball in a clearing to wipe out some goblins that were intent on despoiling the area would be a good elf. Surely if some animals have to die in the service of protecting the forest, it is better if those animals are extraplanar rather than native to the forest (especially since the former - if summoned rather than called - do not actually die at all)? And since spells like Wail of the Banshee or Circle of Death kill "irrevocably" (preventing raise dead), without harming anyone other than the targets (no collateral damage), you'd think that elven necromancers would not necessarily be shunned either (at least as long as they avoid creating undead or blighting nature - both of which are, admittedly, also possibilities opened up by the necromantic school).

From the perspective of being nature defenders, I think it should be down to how you use the spells rather than what school they're from. From the perspective of shunning the Shadow World, illusions make more sense to restrict than evocations. But I would simply suggest a different approach entirely: just say that elves don't like cast spells that are strongly aligned (so no Law, Chaos, Good, or Evil spells). That cuts out the Summon Monster series (I would recommend replacing them with Summon Nature's Ally), virtually all the offensive necromancy spells, and so forth. If you like, you could add Death spells to the list of shunned spells (that cuts out Circle of Death and Wail of the Banshee; I don't consider those spells to be any more unnatural than Baleful Polymorph, but YMMV). And the obvious mechanic would be to just say that the elven penalty to social interactions applies to elves that break these restrictions.

It seems more logical to me, at any rate.

edit: Fixed Rich Burlew's name; anyone interested in his Polymorph stuff as well as the Order of the Stick is encouraged to check out http://giantitp.com

[irdeggman]

gazza666,

It appears that you have extremely limited knowledge of the setting itself. This can happen for those who are "new" to the game and only started playing when the BRCS popped onto the radar. I am not talking about rules that you may "drop into" another setting but the actual Birthright setting itself.

These restrictions are a core philosophy of the game and were written by the setting creators and "approved" by its creator Rich Baker. They are also "reflected" in the novels and the compuer game, IIRC, also follows these conventions.

Elves have no dieties and can't cast cleric (and druid, which is specifically a subset for the setting as all druidic abilities are granted by Erik and not via nature itself) nor can they be paladins. These were from the 2nd ed material.

Only in 3.0 did the concept of arcane cure spells get introduced by TSR/WotC approved sources (it was not uncommon for people to try to house rule that wizards could research wizard versions of cure spells but they weren't in any approved company source).

Read the Intro section in the BRCS to get the overall (simple and abreviated version) of the history of Cerilia.

Check the "rules" under Clerics and Druids in the sanctioned Chapt 1.


Also read the text more clearly on disfavored and shunned. Disfavored doesn't mean the spell is not allowed or around, only that it is uncommon and difficult to come by. Shunned is the one that you are almost never going to find. Although a case could be made for some necromantic spells being found in elven society, the entire concept places those that would cast them walking a thin line between those that involve death and those that don't.



Magic and society

It is said among some that mages differ by the spells that they study, the methods that they use to invoke their lore, the goals that that set for themselves, and the company that they keep. Surpassing their many differences, however, Cerilia's wizards all share a common bond; they thirst for knowledge of the arcane, and they embrace magecraft with their hearts and minds. But above all, mages define themselves by where they come from – who they are and what land they call home. Specialist wizards of each race usually practice in the schools favored by their culture; generalists select the majority of their spells from these schools. Some schools of magic are in disfavor for a particular region and thus training in spells of disfavored schools is difficult to come by. Mages practicing the magic of shunned schools are often themselves shunned by other mages and ostracized by their people.
Acceptance of magic and those who practice it varies widely from culture to culture. Except for the elves, who view magic as a natural part of daily life, most races believe sorcery to be an essentially unnatural activity. Because most commoners regard spellcasters with suspicion, human sorcerers tend to keep either their abilities or themselves out of the public eye. Even "court wizards" seldom perform any but the most minor magics (illusions and divinations) at court.


Elves favor the schools of enchantment and illusion as these magics cause the least disruption to the natural flow of mebhaighl. Elves are particularly fond of spells that bring them closer to nature. Sidhelien spellcasters favor spells that allow them to vanquish foes or accomplish a feat without risking any damage to nature.
Elves disfavor the schools of evocation and conjuration, particularly distaining spells that create an overt force of mebhaighl into the environment. This disfavor does not extend to transmutations spells, which are considered to be a bending – not a breaking – of natural laws.
Elves shun the school of necromancy absolutely. An elf who even dabbles in death magics faces the censure of his peers and risks ostracism from the community. Elves practice great caution when casting spells that could harm nature. Elves have been known to hunt down spellcasters, including other elves, who have ruined nature with their carelessness.

[RaspK_FOG]

That part about the Shadow World was an error of mine; in fact, I realise I got the whole matter mixed up with the whole idea behind the Shadow World.

In any case, on our topic: the Sidhelien, just like irdeggman said, dislike the use of Conjuration, since it pretty much drops things out of nowhere (whereas Illusion creates an unreal presence and Transmutation only changes what already is there, and commonly for a miniscule amount of time, unless you actually want to harm it, so it is more like bending than breaking nature, and in a minimal way due to its miniscule, I repeat, time frame compared to elven perspective), and Evocation, but it actually forces things out of thin air, on one hand, and, on the other hand, because it can be extremely destructive. I don't believe that any elf on Cerilia would ever object to the use of Magic Missile: it affects only d20-perspective-creatures (i.e. no normal trees), does so in an explicit manner, and is quite subtle (it pretty much flungs one or more bolts of pure force in the way of physics instead of a piercing missile).

Necromancy... The wording "death magics" is a bit arguable, I'll give you that. However, Necromancy, as presented in D&D, IS the ability to tamper with what energizes life and death and nothing more.

[gazza666]

(sigh)

It's not that I object to what I term "setting fluff", as such. I feel quite free to ignore that.

However, this is a genuine case where these setting elements are harmful to game balance. Elves are already being disadvantaged in many ways within the setting of Birthright: they can't have temples, can't be clerics or druids, and suffer a net penalty to social interactions with just about every other civilised race. The only thing that they are good at to balance all of this is arcane magic - and according to this, they pretty much suck at that, as well. (Yes, I'm exaggerating slightly, but only to a point).

I hear all the "but that's the way the setting is!" arguments. That's all well and good, but fundamentally, if something in the setting makes the game less fun, it is definitely worth considering changing it. The only benefit - and I use that term rather liberally - to arbitrarily closing off an entire school of magic and limiting two others in what seem to be ill-defined ways is to give the elven attitude to magic "character". But the overall effect of this change would be to discourage some players from playing elven wizards at all, to start several at-the-table "discussions" about whether Conjuration Spell X or Evocation Spell Y was in line with the (badly defined, it seems) elven "philosophy" towards magic (consuming valuable game time at the very least).

I'm just not convinced that it's at all worth the cost - the benefit is really one to appreciated only aesthetically. And it doesn't make a heck of a lot of logical sense either, as I argued previously: the core nature-defending class in the game has numerous summoning spells (and even a class feature linked to spontaneously casting them), several powerful evocation spells, and even necromantic death magic (aka Finger of Death). Clearly druids don't have a problem with these spells, and I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that druids know nature at least as well as elves do.

OK, so maybe it's just arcane versions of these spells that are a problem? That doesn't entirely work either, since the sanctioned variant essentially adds in many druid spells to the arcane spell lists of elves - including the dreaded conjuration/summoning spell type (Shambler).

I have no problem with the idea that elves revere nature and don't like doing nasty things to it (though of course there's absolutely nothing about that idea that is remotely original; cf Tolkien). I even accept that you could - if you were determined - make a reasonable argument that the vast majority of necromancy spells were (to some extent) against this philosophy. But there's nothing natural about any type of magic - by definition - and it certainly seems that a more reasonable attitude (given that elves clearly accept the use of magic) would be to judge it by the results, not the school it happened to belong to. There are transmutation spells that are certainly usable in ways that violate the idea of nature (and some of them - Stone to Flesh, Polymorph Any Object, Awaken - are permanent or even instantaneous in duration). There are necromancy spells that don't - assuming that druids don't immediately lose all spellcasting ability if they dare cast Finger of Death.

Is game balance such an anti-setting idea that it is OK to arbitrarily break it for purposes of "flavour"?

It's only fair that if you take something away, you give something back. True, there are several druid spells added to the list of elven wizards or sorcerers, but this is an optional variant rather than a core assumption, and in any case it would appear that some of these spells violate the chapter 3 guidelines on "spells that elves don't cast", to say nothing of the fact that they don't really fill the role of the spells that are being removed. Transport via Plants is of only theoretical interest to a class with Teleport on the spell list (I assume that all Conjuration/Teleportation effects have the same Shadow World inaccuracy); this is not to say that all of these spells suck (Entangle is a solid spell, Barkskin allows elven wizards to make Amulets of Natural Armour; there are other goodies there) but that they hardly make up for losing what chapter 3 implies elves should lose.

I have only respect for those who crafted the setting and those responsible for its conversion to 3rd edition; it is clearly a work of love and it shows. But that doesn't mean that I must be blinded to what seem - to me - to be fairly nasty mechanical flaws. Nobody has yet addressed the mechanical implication of this - the responses have been of the "read this chapter" or "that's the way it is in this setting" type. I'm not disputing any of that - it's not relevant to the argument I'm making here.

My argument is purely mechanical, and it is this: following this suggestion imposes a crippling limitation on elven sorcerers and a serious limitation on elven wizards [because sorcerers lose a lot of low level utility evocation spells, and both sorcerers and wizards have their spell list reduced by about 20-40% with no compensation]; in addition, exactly what is supposed to be restricted is poorly defined [chapter 3 implies it is all conjuration and evocation spells; there seems to be some dispute that only flashy evocation and summoning conjuration spells are restricted despite the sanctioned variant whereby Shambler is added to the spell list - which is it?]; finally, the reasons for these restrictions do not seem to serve their intended goal [if the goal is "don't bugger up nature", then I submit this is at best only poorly correlated with the school of magic being used]. The way it was in 2nd edition, or the way that the original designer wrote about it, is not relevant; to the extent that these are important (and they are, I do not dispute that), they should still be flexible enough to avoid penalty.

I realise that arguments about rules divorced from setting offend some people as being "rules-lawyery" and "roll-playing". Certainly one can always change whatever they wish in their own campaign (I strongly suspect that my DM will concur that these restrictions are not in effect). But that doesn't mean that rules are worthless, or that the careful balance that 3rd edition was supposed to create should be violated in what seems an entirely unnecessary manner.

If these sorts of restrictions have to stay, what about making it a little more explicit? At present the elves look sort of stupid for all this avoidance of certain schools of magic because there is no mechanical effect to blasting half your enemies with fireball, casting Wail of the Banshee at the others all the while being served grapes by your Lesser Planar Bound servants. The Dark Sun rules for defiling would seem to be a fit here - have necromancy, evocation, and conjuration spells actually damage nature (not necessarily to Athasian extents, but it's a decent start). That way the argument about game balance fades, as human wizards suffer to an extent as well (even if they don't particularly care about nature, farmers won't like their crops to fail because an archmage decided to throw a Finger of Death nearby). I'm not sure that this sort of thing is entirely appropriate for Cerilia - magic doesn't seem to be as unnatural - but if nothing like this happens (ie there is no visible effect on the natural environment - which appears to currently be the case) then it's at worst purely a philosophical ideal. And elves, with their love of freedom, would surely allow for philosophical differences, would they not?

[Vicente]

Hi,

long time since I last posted here. I don´t know how is the 3rd Edition BRCS worded, but saying that the elves loose schools for nothing is far from right (I´m talking in a second edition viewpoint, maybe I´m mistaken. This is how things were in 2nd edition, if unblooded humans can be wizards and sorcerers in 3e, instead of only Magicians, do not read this post ;))

Elves are the only ones able to cast arcane magic. Other races only can if they are blooded beings. Being elf is much more usual than being a blooded wizard or sorcerer. So even with evocation/conjuration/necromancy elves have a very big advantage over most beings in the world.

Of course they lose some nice spells, but well, not anything a player that know his stuff can´t live without. If your mages are the arcane-artillery types (magic missile, fireball, and all other mass evocation spells), they´ll be a little lost, but that´s the problem of the player, not of the setting.

Compared to not be able to cast any spell, not being able to cast those 3 lists is not a problem at all.

Greetings,

Vicente

[Fizz]

Birthright was designed as a rare-magic world. This isn't Faerun where magic is so common every other person can cast spells.

The rules and setting are designed and balanced with this in mind. Elves don't get priestly magic, but they're the only race that can cast true magic (without being blooded). Even with restrictions on the schools of conjuration and necromancy, a wizard has much more magic potential than a magician.

You've stated before that you just want to take the rules and ignore the setting, at least the parts you dislike. But the two are one in the same. You can't expect that you can just pick and choose your pieces and not have repurcussions.


-Fizz

[irdeggman]

Birthright is the setting.

The rules (BRCS or 2nd ed rules) are means of capturing the setting.

They don't work the other way around.

If you are talking about how the "rules" themselves don't balance then it is most likely because the complete setting is not being used.

If you are asking specific question on the rules expect answers that are geared from the setting aspect.

If you don't understand or like the setting then of course a good hunk of the "rules" will not work in your vision of how to run the game.

I don't see how the two can be put together though - sorry.

The rules of the BRCS were intimately tied to the setting and were designed to reflect it, in fact that was one of the core philosphies of putting together the BRCS. Check the pinned thread above for links to the threads talking about that.

Now if you want to ask how can I incorporate XXX (part of the rules) into my game when I don't want to use (YYY) part of the rules? Then that puts things into a different persepective and belongs in the other thread (Royal Library).

[RaspK_FOG]

Well, anyone can do whatever he wants at his table, but I always find important to point out any and all differentiation from the norm, especially to players; I still feel cheated for having to roll Climb checks after having my character search around for live spiders and bitumen, the material components of Spider Climb, or suddenly being told that mithral in another campaign had the ability to draw on magic when found in large quantities, thus rendering all magical items to inactive magical items... Limitations are fine as long as the player is aware of them to some extent!

Thus, in Birthright, those with a connection to the land (dragons, elves and half-elves) can draw on the mebhaighal without having to have the power of the gods flowing through them; however, the Sidhelien disdain (that is, they prefer not to have anything to do with) heavy-handed Evocation and Conjuration spells, whereas they generally abhor the use of Necromancy. In that regard, it is important to check up on the way most of these spells operate.

Note, for example, that there generally are NO planar-travel spells in Birthright, unless you want to tamper with the Shadow World, which is exactly the nature of this plane's transitional plane (in fact, Aebrynis lacks both an Ethereal and a Shadow plane, both touching on the metaphorical borders of the Shadow World in terms of thematics, but none is an extention to the rest; in fact, the cosmological placement of the Prime Material plane of Aebrynis is set apart from most of the rest of the multiverse, quite an enigma not unlike Ravenloft, while still allowing intratravel with the Inner and Outer planes; finally, even the Astral plane is a bit at odds with Aebrynis).

Likewise, Necromancy generally does not suit, for the most part, the way elves think. Note that this is generally adjudicated, meaning that most elves may consider the outcome quite as important as the use of the magic involved and speak none of it. However, some uses of necromancy are at such great odds with Sidhelien society (like Implosion, had it been available to them, what with no clerics at large) that their use is viewed with the utmost contempt. Vampiric Touch and Wail of the Banshee also probably are good examples, mainly because they grants their user some of the most dreaded powers of some of the most dreaded of all undead on Aebrynis.

[gazza666]

(Has anyone else not been able to access the site for the last couple of days?)

OK, to summarise the responses - let me know if this isn't a fair summary; I'm not trying to portray a caricature here - the issue of game balance is considered secondary to the requirements of the setting; thus, since the setting demands that elves have these restrictions, they have them.

The one response that does not seem to fit here is Vicente's observation that non-elves cannot become wizards or sorcerers unless they are regents. That's a completely fair point, worth further examination. If we're talking about the type of campaign I'm playing in (and have run in the past), the PCs are all regents, so this restriction does not exist. If we're talking about a more traditional adventuring party, assuming that one can have elves in a party that does not contain only elves - which is possibly unusual in and of itself, but probably not substantially more so than a party that has a half orc member in a more traditional D&D setting - then the restriction is a blanket one on effectively all wizards and sorcerers except outcast elves - perhaps, like the type of elf that would join a party of humans...

In other words, if the game is about scions, then there are no race restrictions on wizards or sorcerers. If the game is not about scions, then we're probably looking at an outcast anyway.

But let's abandon this line of thought for a moment.

In a previous thread, I brought up the idea that racial alignments are mechanically unsound in 3rd edition. This was not an idea that faced exactly universal approval; let us assume for the moment that no elf ever performs a lawful act - that as a race they are psychologically incapable of acting in such a fashion (whether by choice or by restriction is immaterial).

This means that approximately 50% of elves are chaotic. Chaotic is defined as revering personal freedom; to quote Star Trek 3, "The needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many".

So who exactly is banding together and persecuting those of their brethren that choose to dabble in necromancy, evocation, and conjuration spells? The sort of oppressive regime that hunts down outcasts is very much a lawful idea - lawful evil, to be specific. Granted individual elves may just decide that they don't like such practices, but the term "outcast" implies that it is society as a whole that punishes them.

The way I see it, if elves value freedom so much, then they shouldn't be so proscriptive of what their wizards are allowed to do. If elves do impose such restrictions, then they clearly have lawful intentions at least some of the time.

In the end, I'm really just trying to point out that I think this restriction on elves is unbalanced and unnecessary. From a setting perspective, if elves don't like hurting nature, then that should be the restriction: don't cast any spells that hurt nature, regardless of the school. If it's because the mere act of casting certain types of spells hurts nature, then exactly how does this happen? Do trees get destroyed? Does the barrier of the Shadow World become thinner, letting possibly hostile beings into the world? Does it damage the source potential?

If Magic Missile is allowed, is Fireball? If Shambler is allowed, is Summon Monster N?

I'm sure that many of you "just know" the answers to these questions - but I really don't. And for all the obvious uninterest in the setting that I have, consider that novices that download the PDF have nothing more than that to base their decisions upon. Whether or not I agree with the restrictions - it's pretty clear where I stand on that, I suspect ;) - they lack sufficient clarity. I still have absolutely no idea what evocation spells or conjuration spells are allowed. Assuming I wanted to run a "setting compatible" game of Birthright, what do I tell the player who wants to play an elven sorcerer or wizard?

I'm not expecting an exhaustive list of all spells that are banned or acceptable - but a general idea and some examples would be nice.

[Fizz]

So who exactly is banding together and persecuting those of their brethren that choose to dabble in necromancy, evocation, and conjuration spells? The sort of oppressive regime that hunts down outcasts is very much a lawful idea - lawful evil, to be specific. Granted individual elves may just decide that they don't like such practices, but the term "outcast" implies that it is society as a whole that punishes them.

I don't think anyone said elves `hunt necromancers down'. They're just ostracized. An elf can go practice necromancy- he just won't be allowed to do it in an elven forest. And not because the `government says so', but because individual elves will oppose it.

Elves are creatures of nature. Heck, in 3E terms they could quite easily have the monster type of Fey. They more than revere nature, they essentially are a part of nature.


The way I see it, if elves value freedom so much, then they shouldn't be so proscriptive of what their wizards are allowed to do. If elves do impose such restrictions, then they clearly have lawful intentions at least some of the time.

By that logic, the elves never would have gone to war with the humans thousands of years ago. Even with the humans destroying the forests, the elves would not have gone to war, because stopping the humans would be `imposing a restriction'.

By this logic, no chaotic being can ever interfere with any other being ever.


From a setting perspective, if elves don't like hurting nature, then that should be the restriction: don't cast any spells that hurt nature, regardless of the school.

Well, that's true. Most elves won't cast any spell that hurts nature. But some schools are more damaging to either nature or their own nature for various reasons.


I'm not expecting an exhaustive list of all spells that are banned or acceptable - but a general idea and some examples would be nice.

There's no one `elven spell list'. But if you keep in mind their chaotic nature (belief in free will) and that they're linked to the natural world, you can get a good idea of what types of spells would be appropriate. Hopefully the summary below will help.

Being creatures of nature, necromancy spells are totally repugnant to elves. It's a complete perversion of their very being. Necromancy to an elf is like a water elemental on the plane of fire.

Conjuration itself isn't bad, but the sub-type of Summoning conflicts with the elven nature of free will. So it's not liked either, but not as seriously so as necromancy, and can be practiced without worry. Consider it a `shady' school.

Evocation is not well liked, because it's too overt and obvious use of maebhaigl for most elves. But it's not a shunned school or anything. This is mostly just a non-preference among elves.


-Fizz

[gazza666]

I don't think anyone said elves `hunt necromancers down'. They're just ostracized. An elf can go practice necromancy- he just won't be allowed to do it in an elven forest. And not because the 'government says so', but because individual elves will oppose it.

Perhaps I'm confusing things a bit. It says in chapter 3 that elves who practice necromancy are ostracised, but then goes on to say that elves hunt down those who damage nature - I may be assuming a connection between these two that does not exist. Fair enough.



Elves are creatures of nature. Heck, in 3E terms they could quite easily have the monster type of Fey. They more than revere nature, they essentially are a part of nature.

Arguably, so are druids. Fair? Druids have a few necromancy spells on their list, including death magic.

Now, obviously it can be argued that elves are even more in tune with nature than druids. I won't dispute that directly, but rather I'd ask a more general question: are elves unique amongst nature lovers in abhorring necromancy? Would a centaur druid, for example, have a similar prohibition? How about a nymph?

If it is the case that necromancy is something that fey-like creatures abhor - which sounds like what you're suggesting here - would it be so terrible if (say) fey creatures got something like a +2 DC to all their enchantment school spells?

Understand that it is not the idea of removing spells I object to per se - it is the lack of compensation. If you take something away, you should give something back. I can't believe that there's no mechanic you could implement to compensate for this that wouldn't violate the setting - there must be some middle ground here.



By that logic, the elves never would have gone to war with the humans thousands of years ago. Even with the humans destroying the forests, the elves would not have gone to war, because stopping the humans would be 'imposing a restriction'.


Hmm.

One of the reasons I don't use alignments in my campaign is because everybody has a different idea about what they are.

But it sounds in this case that you're arguing chaotic good means "do whatever you like as long as it doesn't interfere with others" - a perfectly reasonable definition; I'll get behind that.

Unfortunately, this therefore begs the question: what harm does necromancy (et al) do? The way it is expressed at the moment it looks like purely a personal preference - and coming down on someone's non-harmful different beliefs is definitely not the sort of thing that falls under a chaotic alignment. I'm cool with the idea that elves would oppose necromancy if it is harmful to others (the same way they went to war with humans, and so forth); I'm just not clear on what harm it does. It surely has to be more than "I don't like it" in order for a chaotic being to shun another for using it.

To use a real world example here: let us assume, for the moment, that the use of marijuana is completely non-harmful to others. (Whether or not you believe that is an interesting side argument, but not relevant for the purposes of this discussion). I can see a lawful person crusading to have it banned despite this, but I would say that individuals who personally didn't like the idea of the drug and yet opposed it's ban would be classically chaotic (probably chaotic good).

On the other hand, the most chaotic good hippy in the real world isn't going to protest that murder should be acceptable.

The analogy is this: it looks to me that practicing necromancy is like taking marijuana - distasteful, but not harmful. But for elves to be opposed to it implies that it is harmful, and it is known to be harmful. So what harm does it do?



Well, that's true. Most elves won't cast any spell that hurts nature. But some schools are more damaging to either nature or their own nature for various reasons.

And that's the point: I want to know what damage they do, so that I can understand those reasons.

I fail to see how Blindness/Deafness harms nature. It's tricky to see that Finger of Death does (assuming you aren't using it on a treant or something). Wall of Force doesn't seem to make Tinkerbell die.

Certainly I can see that virtually any use of Animate Dead would be an affront to nature. So might using Burning Hands to burn down a forest, or Control Weather to impose a drought. But I would say that Animate Dead is bad because it creates undead (which are non-natural) rather than because it's necromantic; I would also argue that despite the fact that Burning Hands and Control Weather are transmutation, they are still bad if used in that fashion.



Being creatures of nature, necromancy spells are totally repugnant to elves. It's a complete perversion of their very being. Necromancy to an elf is like a water elemental on the plane of fire.

Even spells like Blindness/Deafness? Not all necromantic spells are death magic; not all necromantic spells are evil. And frankly, I could totally get behind a concept such as "elves don't cast spells with the death descriptor" or even "elves don't cast spells with an alignment descriptor". Both of these seem to fit; alignments are "unnatural" (animals don't have them), and snuffing out someone's life force sounds pretty unnatural as well.



Conjuration itself isn't bad, but the sub-type of Summoning conflicts with the elven nature of free will. So it's not liked either, but not as seriously so as necromancy, and can be practiced without worry. Consider it a `shady' school.

The issue here is one of consistency - the sanctioned variant adds Shambler to the elven arcane spell list. In any case, I assume what applies to Summoning would apply even more to Calling spells.

To be frank, the loss of the Summoning school isn't really much of a problem to most wizards, as the Summon Monster series of spells are not particularly potent. Calling spells mean that you miss out on Gate, but many DMs (myself included) ban that spell completely anyway due to its tremendous potential for abuse.

If other conjuration spells (healing, creation, teleportation) are OK, then great. This is exactly the sort of answer I'm looking for - it would seem that the inclusion of Shambler is incorrect, in this case.



Evocation is not well liked, because it's too overt and obvious use of maebhaigl for most elves. But it's not a shunned school or anything. This is mostly just a non-preference among elves.

OK, so using evocation is more a sort of "Oh look, what a loser" rather than anything more serious. That's cool too.

This is the sort of thing I was after - thank you. I think, under the circumstances, that I am still of the opinion that elves are getting mechanically screwed over here, but I also think this can be rectified. Something like a bonus to enchantment/charm spell DCs (which would be in keeping with their fey-like nature) would probably go some way towards alleviating this. It does mean that virtually all elven wizards would become specialists, of course, but that's not a terrible side effect.

It might also help to have some specific social penalties applied to elves that break these rules. Would it be enough to simply apply the usual -4/+4 that they get with other races to elves as well, or should it go further than that?

[irdeggman]

OK, to summarise the responses - let me know if this isn't a fair summary; I'm not trying to portray a caricature here - the issue of game balance is considered secondary to the requirements of the setting; thus, since the setting demands that elves have these restrictions, they have them.

As pointed out this is incorrect.

Check out the "other" things that Cerilian elves get:

As pointed out they don't need to be scions in order to cast greater magic (i.e., non-magician/bard type).

Timeless: Gifted with near immortality, elves do not suffer the ravages of time and are thus immune to aging attacks and normal (but not supernatural) disease. An adult elf’s age has no effect on her physical or mental ability scores. Because of this, modify the random starting age and aging effects’ tables in the Player’s Handbook to remove mention of starting age or aging (years have no meaning to an ageless race) effects for Cerilian elves.

Nature Stride: Elves may move through natural thorns, overgrown areas, heavy snow, soft sand, a treacherous mountain or similar natural terrain at their normal movement rate and without suffering damage or penalty.

Automatic Language: Sidhelien. Bonus Languages: Any.

Favored Class: Any one arcane spell casting class.


These are all things that the "standard" D&D elf does not get. You are focusing on a single aspect and using that as the basis for "balance" and not viewing the overall picture. Much of this probably comes from how you are inserting the BRCS rules into your own game.


The one response that does not seem to fit here is Vicente's observation that non-elves cannot become wizards or sorcerers unless they are regents. That's a completely fair point, worth further examination. If we're talking about the type of campaign I'm playing in (and have run in the past), the PCs are all regents, so this restriction does not exist.


Focusing on a single aspect of gameplay will remove some "balance" aspects and really nothing can be done in the basic rules to cover all of these things. The most dramatic example of focusing on a single aspect is when a group primarily uses only Domain level of play. Many of the regent feats in Chap 1 become overly powerful since the players will ignore adventure level feats and take them instead.

As far as adventuring regents, well the section in Chap 2 "For the DM: Playing a Great or True Bloodline" is suposed to serve as a warning and guideline for what it entails to be a regent. Basically regents should be spending most of their time ruling and not adventuring, but in reality (that is most actual game play) regents spend a lot of their time adventuring.


I brought up the idea that racial alignments are mechanically unsound in 3rd edition. This was not an idea that faced exactly universal approval; let us assume for the moment that no elf ever performs a lawful act - that as a race they are psychologically incapable of acting in such a fashion (whether by choice or by restriction is immaterial).


From the SRD:


LAW VS. CHAOS

Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties.

Chaotic characters follow their consciences, resent being told what to do, favor new ideas over tradition, and do what they promise if they feel like it.

“Law” implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include close-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability. Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should.

“Chaos” implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility. Those who promote chaotic behavior say that only unfettered personal freedom allows people to express themselves fully and lets society benefit from the potential that its individuals have within them.

Someone who is neutral with respect to law and chaos has a normal respect for authority and feels neither a compulsion to obey nor a compulsion to rebel. She is honest but can be tempted into lying or deceiving others.

Devotion to law or chaos may be a conscious choice, but more often it is a personality trait that is recognized rather than being chosen. Neutrality on the lawful–chaotic axis is usually simply a middle state, a state of not feeling compelled toward one side or the other. Some few such neutrals, however, espouse neutrality as superior to law or chaos, regarding each as an extreme with its own blind spots and drawbacks.
.

Here is a link to a very good article on the WotC site that talks about lawful and chaotic alignment:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20050325a (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20050325a)

I think a lot of your issues with this arise from your house-rules (i.e., own game) and as you pointed out later you don't use alignments.


So who exactly is banding together and persecuting those of their brethren that choose to dabble in necromancy, evocation, and conjuration spells? The sort of oppressive regime that hunts down outcasts is very much a lawful idea - lawful evil, to be specific. Granted individual elves may just decide that they don't like such practices, but the term "outcast" implies that it is society as a whole that punishes them.

The way I see it, if elves value freedom so much, then they shouldn't be so proscriptive of what their wizards are allowed to do.

I think you have misread the information, again. Later discussion points that out too.

Anyway here is the information from the BRCS:



Some schools of magic are in disfavor for a particular region and thus training in spells of disfavored schools is difficult to come by. Mages practicing the magic of shunned schools are often themselves shunned by other mages and ostracized by their people.



Elves favor the schools of enchantment and illusion as these magics cause the least disruption to the natural flow of mebhaighl. Elves are particularly fond of spells that bring them closer to nature. Sidhelien spellcasters favor spells that allow them to vanquish foes or accomplish a feat without risking any damage to nature.


Elves disfavor the schools of evocation and conjuration, particularly distaining spells that create an overt force of mebhaighl into the environment. This disfavor does not extend to transmutations spells, which are considered to be a bending – not a breaking – of natural laws.

Elves shun the school of necromancy absolutely. An elf who even dabbles in death magics faces the censure of his peers and risks ostracism from the community. Elves practice great caution when casting spells that could harm nature. Elves have been known to hunt down spellcasters, including other elves, who have ruined nature with their carelessness.



In the end, I'm really just trying to point out that I think this restriction on elves is unbalanced and unnecessary. From a setting perspective, if elves don't like hurting nature, then that should be the restriction: don't cast any spells that hurt nature, regardless of the school. If it's because the mere act of casting certain types of spells hurts nature, then exactly how does this happen?

If Magic Missile is allowed, is Fireball? If Shambler is allowed, is Summon Monster N?

Whether or not I agree with the restrictions - it's pretty clear where I stand on that, I suspect ;) - they lack sufficient clarity. I still have absolutely no idea what evocation spells or conjuration spells are allowed. Assuming I wanted to run a "setting compatible" game of Birthright, what do I tell the player who wants to play an elven sorcerer or wizard?

I'm not expecting an exhaustive list of all spells that are banned or acceptable - but a general idea and some examples would be nice.

Each spell is different.

The "reason" that elves disfavor the conjuration and evocation schools is because they "force" changes in the world or the "force" something to appear (most notably the summoning subschool, although all except the healing subschool have aspects that put them close to "forcing" changes - hence they need to be watched and not routinely used (i.e., the "disfavored schools")

As far as necromancy goes:

From the SRD:



Necromancy


Necromancy spells manipulate the power of death, unlife, and the life force. Spells involving undead creatures make up a large part of this school.


All spells of that school affect the life force - and that is something that elves have tremendous trouble with.

[RaspK_FOG]

I think that your arguments raise quite an interest in me; in all actuality, I see where you come from, and your major problem is, as far as I can tell, the explanation behind all of this. Perhaps we would have to be more in depth about all of the things that relate to the Sidhelien...

Issue No.1: Sidhelien Alignment
It is not that elves cannot fiddle with lawful acts on a constant basis; that's what the neutral alignment represents (a more-or-less balanced course of action between the two ethical extremes of law and chaos). In fact, Rhuobhe Manslayer is shown as a non-exemplar case of an elf, what with him being Neutral Evil; not in him being evil, but being neutral instead of chaotic. Note that being restricted to non-lawful alignments does not mean that half the elves are neutral; a different distribution than the normal is something quite possible (in other words, take a Gaussian curve and nudge it up a bit from the mean).

Issue No.2: Spellcasting Restriction
The restriction on spellcasting is purely roleplayed, not mechanic: no elf will suddenly realise you have cast a Necromancy spell on the other side of the globe. Likewise, it generally presents us with the themes behind the elven point of view on magic. For one thing, a druid (the major part of the priesthood of Eric in Cerilia) is a servant of the divine and thus is expected to be doing his god's will, and the latter is a balancing power (amongst other things, he is truly Neutral), even an arbiter of life and death to some extent (in the sense of the natural cycle). That's absurd from the elven point of view: to tamper with the lifeforce of another is like tampering with the very essence of life to them, not with the spark of life every being has. Conjuration is another matter, and I think I'll disagree with Fizz here: a summoned creature is not even entirely normal, even for magic. It pretty much summons an ideal form, not so much a specific creature that may or may not die. That's perverse in a way.

Issue No.3: Clarity
I think that all of this can easily be wrapped up and mentioned with greater clarity, even without using the original 2e wording, which, as far as I can tell, sometimes is too heavily themed with little concern for mechanics.

On the matter of compensation, though, I have to object: the Sidhelien are some of the few creatures that need not be blooded to use true magic, can move unhindered on all sorts of terrain, are immune to natural disease, and are not supposed to die of old age. Is that too little in your eyes?

[gazza666]

As pointed out this is incorrect.

Check out the "other" things that Cerilian elves get:

As pointed out they don't need to be scions in order to cast greater magic (i.e., non-magician/bard type).

Yes, but I dealt with that in my post. This is a non-issue in a regent only campaign, and at best balances the fact that they can't be clerics or druids in a non-regent campaign.


Timeless:
The agelessness is not really a variant on a standard elf - virtually no campaign will last the centuries of game play needed to see a difference. The immunity to disease would be nice if it affected supernatural diseases; as it doesn't, this is primarily only flavour since the average PC will never contract a normal disease. If anyone runs a campaign where Blinding Sickness and Filth Fever are common, then they're outside my experience.

Indeed, I personally think that if offered a trade between immunity to normal diseases and a chance to automatically spot concealed doors, I'd take the latter - neither will come up very often, but the latter is something that cannot be simulated with low level magic, so it has more value. But that's an opinion, of course.


Nature Stride:
It's far from worthless, I'll grant you. But it's not worth giving up 40% of a spell list for.


Automatic Language: Sidhelien. Bonus Languages: Any.
I don't think you can really mean that the greater access to bonus languages is a significant power up - especially since they don't speak any of the human tongues (which a standard elf would).


Favored Class: Any one arcane spell casting class.
Spellcasters suffer so much for multiclassing that they're unlikely to do it. This feature is only of use to an elf who wants to take a couple of levels of sorcerer or bard (compared to a standard elf). Indeed, one could argue that given the number of spells Sidhelien elves can't cast, this actually works out weaker.



You are focusing on a single aspect and using that as the basis for "balance" and not viewing the overall picture.

It is true that I didn't go through the list until now, but that's because the loss of schools of magic is so overwhelmingly crippling that it makes these features pale into insignificance.

Reality check: how many normal players with a PC wizard that were given the option of getting the above features, in exchange for losing access to 20-40% of their spell list, would actually consider it a bargain? Yes, this is a "power gamer" argument - reject it as such if you wish - but to my mind the only feature that is even in the ball park is the lack of greater magic access for non-elves. And I would argue that this is completely balanced by the elven lack of access to clerics and druids - arguably, elves still get the short end of the stick here, since humans can be wizards if they are scions, and elves can't be paladins either (which is a shame given that they have a charisma bonus).



Much of this probably comes from how you are inserting the BRCS rules into your own game.

(shrug)

As far as I can see I'm reading the same thing you are, but we're drawing very different conclusions. I'm not even sure that elven wizards are that much stronger than elven magicians, as they apparently lose many of the spells that define "greater magic".



Focusing on a single aspect of gameplay will remove some "balance" aspects and really nothing can be done in the basic rules to cover all of these things.

I agree, but I don't think it's reasonable to identify the issue I'm expressing about game balance with all elven wizards and sorcerers with the phrase "a single aspect of gameplay". All aspects of gameplay that relate to such characters are impacted; they lose a lot of damage potential (from evocation), virtually all "save or die" effects (from necromancy), and some flexibility (from conjuration). There is no point being a non-specialist wizard if you must give up access to three schools of magic anyway; that's the sort of change that is arguably drastic enough to warrant a different class. And sorcerers get hurt even worse - the bread and butter of a sorcerer is evocation (Magic Missile, Fireball) and they make use of quite a few necromantic spells as well (Blindness/Deafness, Enervation, Finger of Death, all the way up to Wail of the Banshee). Yes, a sorcerer could be constructed that didn't use any of these spells (as could a wizard), but we're removing a choice here. There is a big difference between a sorcerer that chooses to be offbeat and one that must be offbeat.

It basically doesn't hurt bards, I'll give you that.



I must be having a bad day, because I don't see anything in what you quoted that fundamentally contradicts my interpretation.

[quote]Each spell is different.
So no help at all then for the novice DM who wants to know the answer to the very simple question: "What spells are elven wizards allowed to cast without becoming outcasts?"?

Grouping them by school is one way to do it, of course. But there are apparently exceptions:



The "reason" that elves disfavor the conjuration and evocation schools is because they "force" changes in the world or the "force" something to appear (most notably the summoning subschool, although all except the healing subschool have aspects that put them close to "forcing" changes - hence they need to be watched and not routinely used (i.e., the "disfavored schools")

But what does "disfavoured" mean? That they can only cast them once a week? That they shouldn't cast them in front of the queen?

And why, if conjuration is not supposed to be routinely used, do elves get 3 conjuration spells added to their list from the druid spell list (one of which is Shambler - a summoning spell)? Was that just a mistake, or are some conjuration spells OK? If so, what makes them different from others?

I really am trying to understand here, but either I'm asking questions that have obvious answers or questions that don't have easy answers. Some of you are saying that only conjuration/summoning spells are bad; others are saying that all conjuration spells are bad.

And I repeat my previous question: why do elves have a problem with "forcing" changes on nature? Nature is resilient; it recovers. Certainly there are no long term effects of casting Summon Monster N or Magic Missile. Are there? If it's just that elves don't particularly like these sorts of spells, well - elves are pretty cool with most funny beliefs. They don't even care if you worship a human god, as long as you keep it to yourself (right?) So why do they get all bent out of shape over a school of magic? Elves aren't stupid, so presumably these schools must actually have a harmful effect - what harmful effect is it? Does it destablise the flow of magic somehow? Does it kill puppies? ;)



All spells of that school affect the life force - and that is something that elves have tremendous trouble with.
OK, but why? Is it a fey thing? It can't be a nature thing, because druids cast Finger of Death all the time, and they're pretty into the whole nature ideal. Presumably even nymph druids can still cast Finger of Death, right?

Let's cast this another way. Suppose, in a variant game, someone decided that elves would be allowed to be druids. Perhaps they reasoned that if rangers could get their power from nature, so could druids. I'm sure that this has been discussed before.

In your opinion, would druids suffer the same restrictions on schools of magic that wizards do? To be blunt: could they cast Finger of Death?

Even in a normal Birthright campaign, an elven ranger gets some divine spells. Is an elven ranger an outcast if he uses Cure Light Wounds? Conjuration/Healing most certainly tampers with the life force - sure, it does so with the best of intentions, but there are necromantic spells that act in the best interests of "life" as well: Disrupt Undead (surely anything that hurts undead is good for nature?), Gentle Repose (I realise that elves probably don't like raising the dead, but this spell can be used just to get your dead buddy home and into an open-casket funeral), Undeath to Death (see Disrupt Undead); as well as some that don't hurt any more than enchantment/charm spells: Blindness/Deafness, Astral Projection (perhaps they're against planar travel - fair enough, but in and of itself this is not a spell that most people would regard as "nasty"). Certainly that's not a lot of spells - most necromancy spells are, indeed, to do with death - but I haven't cherry picked spells that nobody would normally use, either (though most wizards don't prepare Gentle Repose very often, admittedly).

[gazza666]

Here are some spells that are in other schools, that I would suggest violate elven ideals more than the above necro spells do:

Charm Person (and all the later variants, especially the Dominate series): Even the lowly Charm Person violates someone's free will by forcing them to become your friend; Dominate makes them a puppet. Elves favour free will, correct? (To be honest, virtually all of the enchantment/charm spells involve coercion to some degree; I won't bother listing them all, since these are the most obvious).
Rope Trick - if elves don't like conjuration spells because they interface to other planes, well - this one actually creates an extradimensional space that by definition violates nature.
Polymorph invokes an unnatural change on a target. OK, it's not permanent - but Polymorph Any Object often is, as is Baleful Polymorph.
Disintegrate. You don't get much more of a permanent alteration and nature-destroying spell than this; unlike Finger of Death, this works just fine against trees as well as creatures.
Control Weather. It's only transmutation, so presumably it's OK for elves to use this as frequently as they wish, totally disrupting the natural weather patterns.

I'm not even listing the more controversial examples (does stopping time violate nature? Suspending someone's animation? Using a Wish?).

Of course the counter argument could be that just because a spell is transmutation, enchantment/charm, etc doesn't necessarily mean it's a free-for-all. That's fine - but why not invert this logic and apply it back to the other schools, so that not all uses of necromancy, conjuration, and evocation are bad?

If the issue is not the direct effect on nature but rather the indirect effect of casting certain types of spells, that's fine too - I just want to know what that effect is. For example, maybe casting necromancy spells in an area gives a cumulative 1% per spell level chance that some nasty incorporeal undead will come through from the Shadow World, and that this percentage decays very slowly (if at all). And maybe conjuration spells might let some extraplanar being in, while evocation spells let elementals in (but presumably these schools have their chances decay faster than necromancy, since necromancy is shunned while the other two are merely disfavoured). This sort of thing gives elves a good, solid reason to shun the schools of magic - and in addition, it adds a potentially useful DM device to justify a sudden arrival of some nasty creature for plot purposes. It also affects other wizards as well, potentially - maybe the percentage chances decay faster in a low-source area than a high-source area, which is why most human wizards don't care as much (since they have fewer high source areas to concern them).

Or perhaps instead of opening up the Shadow World barrier for incorporeal undead, necromancy might gradually reduce the lifeforce in the area so that animals and plants slowly die and the ground becomes more barren. Instead, perhaps they might impact the source potential.

Whatever is most appropriate for the setting - you guys know that better than me - but they surely must do something bad, because otherwise the elves are just being bigots. ;)

[gazza666]

I think that your arguments raise quite an interest in me; in all actuality, I see where you come from, and your major problem is, as far as I can tell, the explanation behind all of this. Perhaps we would have to be more in depth about all of the things that relate to the Sidhelien...

(and snip!)

I think I understand a little better now. Thank you.



On the matter of compensation, though, I have to object: the Sidhelien are some of the few creatures that need not be blooded to use true magic, can move unhindered on all sorts of terrain, are immune to natural disease, and are not supposed to die of old age. Is that too little in your eyes?
In all seriousness, yes, but I've responded blow-by-blow here to Duane, so I won't repeat it here.

I see, of course, that this is a somewhat subjective stance I'm taking.

[gazza666]

In the interests of my understanding, I wonder: if I made a list of all the conjuration and evocation spells in the PH classified by "OK for elves" and "Not OK for elves", would you guys be interested in telling me whether I'm on the right track or not?

If so, I'll see if I can get to it this weekend, at least for the first few levels. That way, at least I'll understand what spells are bad, which will be a necessary first step to understanding why. ;)

[irdeggman]

Guess what, elves aren’t singled out with respect to restrictions on arcane spells – every race has them. So they are indeed "balanced" within the campaign. Birthright is a low-magic setting. Especially in the area of magic items but also in the fact that there are fewer casters of "true" magic, since a character ahs to be a scion or have elven blood in order to do that.

In Chap 3 you will find similar words for each of the races.

Anuireans:
Anuirean mages favor the schools of evocation and divination and magics capable of determining the course of large-scale military and political conflict. Though their feeling for the land is second only to the elves, it is a distant second – Anuirean wizards love powerful evocations spells (though they try to use them sparingly). Anuireans mages tend to disfavor the school of illusion, as illusions tend to bring attention and suspicion without providing any lasting benefit. Anuirean mages shun spells from the school of [/b]enchantment, viewing them as dishonorable

Brecht:
Brecht mages favor divinations and enchantments (although they have laws against charming potential customers). Brecht mages dislike illusions and alterations, as irresponsible practitioners can use spells of these schools to disrupt trade. Brecht mages shun no school as inherently evil or wrong. A cosmopolitan people, the Brecht prefer to be generalists, because any type of spell might be valuable in the right circumstances.

Dwarves:
Dwarven mages favor alterations, abjurations, and spells that allow them to modify nature to suit their needs and protect their homes. Dwarven mages shun necromancy and illusion spells, and disfavor spells with ephemeral effects.

Half-elves:
Half-elves should use the favored, disfavored, and shunned schools of the race from which their beliefs and philosophies on magic are adopted. However, half-elves are far more likely to seek out knowledge disfavored or shunned by their culture. Quite often, half-elves cross-train in many schools of magic merely to satisfy their curiosity of their own magical heritage and to understand how Cerilia's arcane forces adapt differently to humans and elves

Halflings:
Regardless of the attitudes of the region, halflings favor spells from the school of illusions, especially shadow magics or other magics. All halflings shun necromantic magic, as they avoid all things which bear the taint of the evil that corrupted their homeland.


Khinasi:
In theory, Khinasi mages revere all magics – except necromancy – and believe that all magical lore is equally worthwhile. In practice, however, Khinasi wizards pride themselves on power and tend to distance themselves from spells that can be cast by a lesser magician. Khinasi sorcerers favor conjuration spells and other spells with impressive, highly visible results. Khinasi sorcerers disfavor divination. Khinasi sorcerers shun illusion and necromancy.

And the 5 Oaths restrictions.


Rjurik:
Rjurik mages have a hard life among skeptical people and a harsh land. Their kinsmen consider the magic of druids wholesome and valuable, while arcane magic is automatically suspect. Rjurik mages favor spells from the schools of alteration, conjuration, and abjuration. Rjurik mages are noted for researching spells related to the weather. The wise Rjurik wizard learns, and teaches spells that appear natural. Rjurik mages shun spells from the school of evocation. Overt spell effects, such as those produced by evocations, call too much attention to the caster.

Vos:
Although most Vos leaders openly shun mages, very few will order a wizard's death, as they fear the retribution of Lirovka (Ruornil), the successor to Vorynn, the god of magic worshiped long ago by their ancestors. Privately, however, many Vos leaders seek the power to be gained from the quiet service of an allied mage against rival tribes or other dangers of Vosgaard.
Vos mages favor spells from the schools of evocation, abjuration, and necromancy. Vos wizards are feared and sometimes hunted by their own people. Thus, they must be able to survive on their own terms – using strength to frighten foes away and protect themselves from harm. Vos mages have also learned that necromantic magics inspire the fear necessary to encourage others to leave them alone. Vos mages shun spells from the school of enchantment. Although such spells could help them improve their standing in society, they are taught that magical persuasion and coercion are tools of the weak.

[Fizz]

Birthright is a low-magic setting. Especially in the area of magic items but also in the fact that there are fewer casters of "true" magic, since a character ahs to be a scion or have elven blood in order to do that.

I prefer the expression `rare-magic' myself. I mean, Realm Magic is incredibly powerful stuff, but you won't see it very often at all, and as you said, there are very few practitioners.

IMO, this is one of Birthright's best strengths. Magic is not normal.

-Fizz

[irdeggman]

The agelessness is not really a variant on a standard elf - virtually no campaign will last the centuries of game play needed to see a difference. The immunity to disease would be nice if it affected supernatural diseases; as it doesn't, this is primarily only flavour since the average PC will never contract a normal disease. If anyone runs a campaign where Blinding Sickness and Filth Fever are common, then they're outside my experience.

Actually you will find that a game that revolves around domain actions tends to advance time much quicker than a normal game. It is not uncommon for people to run multi-generational games where a player runs his first PC's offspring and etc.



I don't think you can really mean that the greater access to bonus languages is a significant power up - especially since they don't speak any of the human tongues (which a standard elf would).

Yes it really is.

There is no standard human language in the setting there are in fact very fractional languages. So since an elve can use his Int bonus to gain any additional language that puts him at a huge advantage when compared to other races that get to choose a cultural one (what that was to refer to was the culture closest to the character's starting point).



Spellcasters suffer so much for multiclassing that they're unlikely to do it. This feature is only of use to an elf who wants to take a couple of levels of sorcerer or bard (compared to a standard elf). Indeed, one could argue that given the number of spells Sidhelien elves can't cast, this actually works out weaker.

But there are a number of Prestige Classes that favor elves and multiclassing with spellcasters.

This allowance is substantially more than "wizard" as per the PHB and includes bards and sorcerers.



It is true that I didn't go through the list until now, but that's because the loss of schools of magic is so overwhelmingly crippling that it makes these features pale into insignificance.

Reality check: how many normal players with a PC wizard that were given the option of getting the above features, in exchange for losing access to 20-40% of their spell list, would actually consider it a bargain? Yes, this is a "power gamer" argument - reject it as such if you wish - but to my mind the only feature that is even in the ball park is the lack of greater magic access for non-elves. And I would argue that this is completely balanced by the elven lack of access to clerics and druids - arguably, elves still get the short end of the stick here, since humans can be wizards if they are scions, and elves can't be paladins either (which is a shame given that they have a charisma bonus).

Check my other post about how the school restrictions affect the other races and then revisit your argument


So no help at all then for the novice DM who wants to know the answer to the very simple question: "What spells are elven wizards allowed to cast without becoming outcasts?"?

That is what a DM is supposed to do - handle and interpret things. If every thing was a specific mechanic then all DMS would have to rely on house-rules almost all of the time instead of supply "mechanics" where they are purposfully left for them to develop.


But what does "disfavoured" mean? That they can only cast them once a week? That they shouldn't cast them in front of the queen?

Again the social role-playing is up to the DM and that is what the "rules" support.


And why, if conjuration is not supposed to be routinely used, do elves get 3 conjuration spells added to their list from the druid spell list (one of which is Shambler - a summoning spell)? Was that just a mistake, or are some conjuration spells OK? If so, what makes them different from others?

Actual that is a variant and was done at the request of the boards to accomodate the elven closeness to nature. The spells were voted on and chosen by the masses. Personnally I didn't think it was necessary but bowed to the public pressure.


And I repeat my previous question: why do elves have a problem with "forcing" changes on nature? Nature is resilient; it recovers. Certainly there are no long term effects of casting Summon Monster N or Magic Missile. Are there? If it's just that elves don't particularly like these sorts of spells, well - elves are pretty cool with most funny beliefs. They don't even care if you worship a human god, as long as you keep it to yourself (right?) So why do they get all bent out of shape over a school of magic? Elves aren't stupid, so presumably these schools must actually have a harmful effect - what harmful effect is it? Does it destablise the flow of magic somehow? Does it kill puppies? ;)

That is something that only detailed reading will help you with.

Try reading Bloodspawn (a free download from WoitC) to help grasp some of the "history" of the elves. It is free, so there can't be any reason, except for being lazy, with not trying to get it.



Let's cast this another way. Suppose, in a variant game, someone decided that elves would be allowed to be druids. Perhaps they reasoned that if rangers could get their power from nature, so could druids. I'm sure that this has been discussed before.

In your opinion, would druids suffer the same restrictions on schools of magic that wizards do? To be blunt: could they cast Finger of Death?

Well since you are already in a variant game I can't give you a valid opinion since elves should not be druids in a Birthright setting game.


Even in a normal Birthright campaign, an elven ranger gets some divine spells. Is an elven ranger an outcast if he uses Cure Light Wounds? Conjuration/Healing most certainly tampers with the life force - sure, it does so with the best of intentions, but there are necromantic spells that act in the best interests of "life" as well: Disrupt Undead (surely anything that hurts undead is good for nature?), Gentle Repose (I realise that elves probably don't like raising the dead, but this spell can be used just to get your dead buddy home and into an open-casket funeral), Undeath to Death (see Disrupt Undead); as well as some that don't hurt any more than enchantment/charm spells: Blindness/Deafness, Astral Projection (perhaps they're against planar travel - fair enough, but in and of itself this is not a spell that most people would regard as "nasty"). Certainly that's not a lot of spells - most necromancy spells are, indeed, to do with death - but I haven't cherry picked spells that nobody would normally use, either (though most wizards don't prepare Gentle Repose very often, admittedly).

The restriction for spells is specific to arcane spells and not to divine ones. The notes on favored, disfavored and shunned schools is located under "Arcane Magic" in Ch 3.

[ConjurerDragon]

Birthright.net Message Boards schrieb:
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
> http://www.birthright.net/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=3019
> wrote:
> Here are some spells that are in other schools, that I would suggest violate elven ideals more than the above necro spells do:
> Charm Person (and all the later variants, especially the Dominate series): Even the lowly Charm Person violates someone`s free will by forcing them to become your friend; Dominate makes them a puppet. Elves favour free will, correct? (To be honest, virtually all of the enchantment/charm spells involve coercion to some degree; I won`t bother listing them all, since these are the most obvious).
>
I would disagree. Sidhelien see themselves as a superior race and to
subdue and even enslave goblins was only natural to them and would still
be the norm hadn?t the goblins not successfully revolted. Favouring free
will? Of sidhelien beings perhaps ;-)
bye
Michael

[dalor]

The ruler of Tuarhievel has "Death Plague" as a realm
spell. Fhileraene also has the Realm Spell "Raze,"
which would be a "non-elven" spell I would think;
according to the ongoing logic against certain magic
being used by elves.

Isaelie, the ruler of the Sielwode, has "Summoning" as
a realm spell.

Realm spells may defy the common concept of what magic
elves will use, simply because it is so limited in the
number of spells available; but then Isaelie also has
Fireball...

Even if an Elf had Legion of the Dead...who is to say
that the dead that are summoned aren`t elven hero
soldiers now passed on from war...willing to return
and aid their people.

Showing that an elven monarch actually has Death
Plague as one of his realm spells shows me that they
are allowed such magic. Plagues are a natural thing;
all disease stems from nature, and the simple
classification system of magic in the D&D game is a
bit too rigid at any rate. Spells used to have
several "schools" from which they could derive their
power...so I still go with the logic that a spell can
have similar effects even if they are from different
schools.

You don`t have to be an elven necromancer to use
necromantic magic...many elven casters used horrible
magic of deadly effect against the human invaders
during the Great War.

Note: all my spells mentionings are from official
sources...2nd Edition AD&D.


Anthony Edwards

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[irdeggman]

The ruler of Tuarhievel has "Death Plague" as a realm
spell. Fhileraene also has the Realm Spell "Raze,"
which would be a "non-elven" spell I would think;
according to the ongoing logic against certain magic
being used by elves.

Isaelie, the ruler of the Sielwode, has "Summoning" as
a realm spell.

Could you help me out here and point me to where the realm spells that these PCs have are listed

IIRC in general Realm Spells weren't listed for the NPCs.


Even if an Elf had Legion of the Dead...who is to say
that the dead that are summoned aren`t elven hero
soldiers now passed on from war...willing to return
and aid their people.

This is pretty much wrong, IMO. Using Great Heart as a descriptive source for elves and death it seems really, really wrong for elves to come back from the dead. In 2nd ed elves couldn't even be raised in normal D&D and resurrection was still more difficult for them.


You don`t have to be an elven necromancer to use
necromantic magic...many elven casters used horrible
magic of deadly effect against the human invaders
during the Great War.

Using magic of deadly effect is not the same as using Death Magic.


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[RaspK_FOG]

The Ruler of Tuarhievel? Who in particular? If you mean the lovely niece of the Mhor, whom I consider one of the setting's greatest stories along with her love and their daughter in her womb, well, the Player's Secrets book lists her as both a Ranger and without any Realm Spells, as far as I can see. Are you sure you don't refer to material that is non-canon? As for her love, I also don't remember him having such a listing of spells...

[dalor]

Replies in line below

--- "Birthright.net Message Boards"
<brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:
>
> Could you help me out here and point me to where the
> realm spells that these PCs have are listed

***The material I quoted was from the game
"Birthright: the Gorgon`s Alliance"***

>
> IIRC in general Realm Spells weren`t listed for the
> NPCs.
>
> Even if an Elf had Legion of the Dead...who is to
> say
> that the dead that are summoned aren`t elven hero
> soldiers now passed on from war...willing to return
> and aid their people.
>
> This is pretty much wrong, IMO. Using Great Heart
> as a descriptive source for elves and death it seems
> really, really wrong for elves to come back from the
> dead. In 2nd ed elves couldn`t even be raised in
> normal D&D and resurrection was still more difficult
> for them.

***Could you please explain to me what happens to the
Sidhe elves when they die? I may have missed it. If
they simply die and cease to be; what happens to their
animating force...their spirit? And I didn`t say come
back from the dead...they are still dead of they are
in an undead unit; but just maybe they are spirits
without bodies...not shambling mounds of wrecked
flesh.***

>
> You don`t have to be an elven necromancer to use
> necromantic magic...many elven casters used horrible
> magic of deadly effect against the human invaders
> during the Great War.
>
> Using magic of deadly effect is not the same as
> using Death Magic.

So exactly what magic could they use to "deadly
effect" if they had no death magic, no fireballs, no
summoning spells? What...did they charm whole armies
and make them fight each other? Or was it perhaps
that they brought death by plague to whole armies, or
summoned the creatures of the forest to battle against
humanity that would despoil the creatures native
habitat...or maybe even bring frigid ice to the camps
of the humans and freeze them to death by conjuring
horrible winter weather.

I`m rather fed up with the notion that Cerilian Elves
are so restricted in their magic. An overzealous
notion of them being extreme tree huggers is about to
wear me out. Elves DO love nature...but they aren`t
so bound in their restrictions that they aren`t able
to defend it. If you like, they don`t summon dead
elves, they have a spell instead that summons nature
spirits that have the same effect.

Break out of the box and imagine things that you
haven`t already read. By seeing the fact that the
folks that made Birthright approved the use of Death
Plague by an Elven monarch...its good enough for me.

Heck...if you really wanna know...ask Rich Baker.
Nevermind that...I`ll ask him.


Anthony Edwards

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[irdeggman]

The Ruler of Tuarhievel? Who in particular? If you mean the lovely niece of the Mhor, whom I consider one of the setting's greatest stories along with her love and their daughter in her womb, well, the Player's Secrets book lists her as both a Ranger and without any Realm Spells, as far as I can see. Are you sure you don't refer to material that is non-canon? As for her love, I also don't remember him having such a listing of spells...

I wonder if its from the computer game - a lot of people confuse that as an "official" 2nd ed BR source for rules.

[gazza666]

Actually you will find that a game that revolves around domain actions tends to advance time much quicker than a normal game. It is not uncommon for people to run multi-generational games where a player runs his first PC's offspring and etc.

... for elves ...

You're asking me to believe that centuries of game time pass, so that standard elves would start to see aging restrictions.

Generational games for humans? Sure. But in the worst possible case, a standard elven wizard is 170 years old at 1st level. They don't hit venerable until 350 - 180 years, minimum, have to pass before a standard elf is in any danger of old age. (Note that aging gives wizards more bonuses than penalties).

Actually I doubt any PC of any race is ever likely to die of old age. Epic levels provide numerous means to extend your lifespan indefinitely. The rules encourage regents to adventure often; if we assume that this means once per six months, then a standard rate of advancement would be 1 level per 2 years - which means you hit level 21 after 40 years. Only half-orcs would be in any possible danger of not surviving that long. And I think only 2 adventures per year is, if anything, underestimating the advancement rate of many campaigns.



There is no standard human language in the setting there are in fact very fractional languages. So since an elve can use his Int bonus to gain any additional language that puts him at a huge advantage when compared to other races that get to choose a cultural one (what that was to refer to was the culture closest to the character's starting point).

Originally you were comparing this to standard elves - in which case Sidhelein don't get to speak Common for free, so it is arguable whether or not they are better off. Now you are comparing it to other Birthright races - in which case all humans get whatever bonus languages they like, so this is not particularly unique.



But there are a number of Prestige Classes that favor elves and multiclassing with spellcasters.

Prestige classes never apply multiclassing penalties. Did you mean that there were prestige classes that favoured multiclassing to get into them? There's eldritch knight, I suppose, or arcane trickster. Neither require a favoured class to avoid multiclassing penalties; you just need to choose your order more carefully.

In any case, the PDF advises against using standard prestige classes - are you referring to some Birthright specific classes that haven't been published yet?



Check my other post about how the school restrictions affect the other races and then revisit your argument

OK. So the Brecht are the big arcane dudes, then - they seem to be the only ones that don't shun any school.

I find this whole section to be a bit difficult to take. "Anuireans view enchantments as dishonourable" - yes, I can see that, since your average Anuirean sees enchantment spells cast all the time in this "rare magic" world. Are there really even enough Anuirean wizards to have established this sort of consensus?

Statements such as "race X doesn't like A and B schools and shuns C" implies that there is a long tradition of magic so that the race as a whole is well educated on what magic does, so that they have formed an opinion (or perhaps even passed laws). Yet with the exception of elves, only scions can even wield most of the magic that is disfavoured or shunned - it is hard to understand how a racial consensus could be reached for something so rare, or are scions really quite common?

Now, I can see that you could say instead, "Anuireans are honourable as a racial trait", and that would include their wizards, who might indeed shun certain spells as dishonourable. However - and this is the crucial point - this would be on a spell-by-spell basis rather than a school-by-school basis. Is it honourable, for example, to re-animate your fallen opponent's corpse? Probably not - but since Anuireans don't have a problem with necromancy, it looks like it's OK.

That is what a DM is supposed to do - handle and interpret things. If every thing was a specific mechanic then all DMS would have to rely on house-rules almost all of the time instead of supply "mechanics" where they are purposfully left for them to develop.



Again the social role-playing is up to the DM and that is what the "rules" support.

That seems a fairly inconsistent position to take. Why was the social role-playing of elves interacting with humans not left up to the DM? Why is it felt necessary to give elves a -4 penalty to social skills with other humans, and not give a similar rule for interacting with outcasts? (Indeed, perhaps that shouldn't just be an elven thing, as you correctly point out that all wizards have a similar issue).



Actual that is a variant and was done at the request of the boards to accomodate the elven closeness to nature. The spells were voted on and chosen by the masses. Personnally I didn't think it was necessary but bowed to the public pressure.

OK, but you can see my point I presume: it certainly clouds things if you have one section saying that elves disfavour conjuration spells and another where they are having such spells specifically added to their list.



That is something that only detailed reading will help you with.

Try reading Bloodspawn (a free download from WoitC) to help grasp some of the "history" of the elves. It is free, so there can't be any reason, except for being lazy, with not trying to get it.

:) OK, I'll check that out.

I will say that I am not at all clear why it should be necessary to read multiple books from different sites merely to play a fairly common character class of one of the standard races.



The restriction for spells is specific to arcane spells and not to divine ones. The notes on favored, disfavored and shunned schools is located under "Arcane Magic" in Ch 3.
Yes, but why don't divine spells suffer the same restriction? Your average non-spellcaster can't tell whether a spell came from one source or another (unless he wants to take a guess from whether or not the caster is wearing armour), and I don't really understand why an Anuirean cleric wouldn't think it was dishonourable to cast an enchantment/charm when an Anuirean wizard would.

Is it because arcane magic is more powerful? But bards are arcane casters too - it's hard to argue that any bard spell measures up against Miracle.

[epicsoul]

Hmmm... this is the same debate we have had before. Or at least, very similar.

One of the problems here is the fact that some people need to have that game balance, and some don't, instead buying into the setting more. The BRCS tries to walk a line somewhere in the middle, perhaps favouring the setting material more - an attempt to carry over the 2e spirit.

I for one, applaud that. I could care less about game balance, personally. I worry when someone states that due to game balance, there are certain classes that won't be played... such as an elf wizard, according to the originator of this topic.

Yet my very last campaign, somebody played an elf wizard... and was, by far, the most powerful character in the campaign (even though she rolled horrible stats!!!). She played the full elven wizard too, with the restrictions inherent to the rules... as a specialist. What was her school? Enchantment. She then chose Necromancy and Evocation as her opposed schools.

Interestingly, you can basically make any of the racial preferences for magic in Ch. 3 as a specialist. Even the Brecht, where you choose their 2 disfavoured schools as their opposed schools.

Now... the extra spell a day per level seems like a substantial game balance bonus, I suppose. Yet the player was just as ready to play as a "generalist" and obey the restrictions on elves, as long as a few spells would be okay. Which I went over, spell by spell.

All I could come up with for necromancy was Cause Fear, Fear, Eyebite and Symbol of Fear, mainly because you could make an argument that these are almost enchantments. All the rest have to do with undead, or the life force somehow. And the player wouldn't have any of that for her character.

So, she would have shunned a school, because of a role-playing effect. Note that there are no rules that state that elves can't learn these spells. Rules don't govern role-playing effects. Heck, if you play a Sidhe deep in Anuire, and use necromancy, nobody will chase you most likely. But, show your face in Tuarhievel or Sielwode, and you may just be put to death... or at the very least, not allowed in.

sidenote: Note one thing about the BR setting, though. Role-playing effects seem to seep in - find yourself in an elven nation and you are human, you may just be put to death for your race - by a supposed good race. More interesting, the way the politics are set up, "good" temples may end up going into holy wars with each other. And have historically.

I may be digressing here, but game balance seems to be a moot point, isn't it? There is nothing RESTRICTING an elf from learning necromancy in the rules, just a role-playing effect that the player chooses to face if they break that taboo. That's the player's choice - just like a player-character in a normal AD&D setting faces racism and death if they play a drow. Heck, in BR, a Sidhe faces the same concern in several nations... why compound their sorrows by pissing off their own people.


And, if game balance is an issue, insist on specialists. That is built into the rules too.

[Fizz]

Why has Dalor posted the exact same thing 3 times now?

No, 3 more after my post. All exactly the same. What's with the spam?

-Fizz

[gazza666]

One of the problems here is the fact that some people need to have that game balance, and some don't, instead buying into the setting more.

I kind of don't see why one has to be sacrificed for the other. Most setting based restrictions can have adjustments to preserve game balance in a fashion that enhances the game; I've offered a few ideas as to tangible effects that using these schools of magic could have, which gives a concrete reason for the elves to shun them. While by no means am I suggesting those are appropriate for the setting - I quite clearly don't understand the setting well enough to voice such an opinion - something similar to those ideas would possibly be appropriate, and IMHO would enhance the game (even as a variant).



I for one, applaud that. I could care less about game balance, personally. I worry when someone states that due to game balance, there are certain classes that won't be played... such as an elf wizard, according to the originator of this topic.

Game balance isn't a holy grail, certainly. My group are power gamers; I know some people consider us to be all that is bad about roleplaying, but we're really not; the desire to have a powerful character doesn't translate to a lack of interest in the roleplaying aspect. If all we wanted was a kick-butt character, we'd play Diablo instead.

To a power gamer, it's not so much about the absolute power as it is about the relative power. Clerics, druids, fighters, paladins, etc: these are pretty much exactly as they are in the PH. But sorcerers, bards, and wizards are depowered, which makes them less attractive.

(snip!)


Interestingly, you can basically make any of the racial preferences for magic in Ch. 3 as a specialist. Even the Brecht, where you choose their 2 disfavoured schools as their opposed schools.

A variant rule that I would have no real issue with:
In Birthright, all wizards must specialise. An elven wizard must select necromancy as one of his banned schools, and must select one of the other two from evocation and conjuration; no elven wizard may specialise in evocation, conjuration, or necromancy without becoming an outcast.

And obviously there would be similar rules for all the other races. That's a rule I could get behind 100% - it's mechanically sound, it avoids any fuzziness about what is or is not allowed, and it seems to achieve much the same goal as the current rules. Unfortunately, it doesn't translate to sorcerers or bards, neither of whom can be specialists. I would be inclined to just say that bards have no restrictions, but sorcerers present an issue; if you say that sorcerers do not have to obey these restrictions, then there's going to be a lot of sorcerers (especially elves, who get a Cha bonus) instead of wizards.



All I could come up with for necromancy was Cause Fear, Fear, Eyebite and Symbol of Fear, mainly because you could make an argument that these are almost enchantments.

Blindess/Deafness, I would argue, fits there as well. Indeed, I'm not sure I would say Fear based effects were almost enchantments; I do follow the logic (the in game effect is similar) but one could use the same logic to say that Finger of Death was much the same sort of effect as Disintegrate - or, to really stretch the point, that Animate Dead was similar to Summon Monster.



All the rest have to do with undead, or the life force somehow. And the player wouldn't have any of that for her character.

Sounds like you had a cool player who had a concept in mind. That's great; all the best to her.



There is nothing RESTRICTING an elf from learning necromancy in the rules, just a role-playing effect that the player chooses to face if they break that taboo.

The initial reply to my opening post was that "... elves won't be casting that anyway ...", strongly implying that if my wizard learned Death Plague he wasn't a "proper" elf. Which, actually, having read the various replies in this thread, I now pretty much agree with. It looks more in tune with the setting for me to use Subversion to start wars between my neighbours, which actually sounds like more fun anyway.



why compound their sorrows by pissing off their own people.

Here's a side question: can a regent be an outcast? It seems almost a contradiction in terms; if they're a regent, then they're some sort of ruler, right? In the case of a regent that is purely a source regent, I can see it as possible (since there isn't really any political power attached), but for a regent that also owned (say) a guild holding or a province, what effect does becoming an outcast have? A penalty to loyalty checks?

[Arjan]

Why has Dalor posted the exact same thing 3 times now?

No, 3 more after my post. All exactly the same. What's with the spam?

-Fizz

Dalor is on the mailinglist, and the scrtipt that imports the messages still seem to have some flaws. so not his fault

Arjan

[irdeggman]

Yes, but why don't divine spells suffer the same restriction? Your average non-spellcaster can't tell whether a spell came from one source or another (unless he wants to take a guess from whether or not the caster is wearing armour), and I don't really understand why an Anuirean cleric wouldn't think it was dishonourable to cast an enchantment/charm when an Anuirean wizard would.

Is it because arcane magic is more powerful? But bards are arcane casters too - it's hard to argue that any bard spell measures up against Miracle.

It is because all arcane magic comes from manipulating the magical force of the planet itself. Divine magic comes from focusing the power of a divinity (i.e., outside the planet's earth energy). For elven rangers this is their "faith in the land" - the logic is at best fuzzy for rangers, but it can be applied. The only thing that elves see as older than themselves is the planet itself. Druidic magic progresses things a step too far by actually placing the planet as a proper deity instead of a minor drawing of power (i.e., ranger spells) - which is why elven druids are generally not present in the setting.

From the SRD


Arcane Magic
All arcane magic in Cerilia magic originates in the land itself. When arcane spell casters perform magecraft – whether simple cantrips or mighty realm spells – they marshal the wild power of the untamed wilderness and unspoiled plains to empower their mystical effects. The elves name this the magical energy that inhabits every rock, tree, and stream of Cerilia; mebhaighl (meh-VALE), but commoners often refer to this force as earthpower.

Sages speculate that mebhaighl ran mighty in the years before humans came to the continent, as the young land had little civilization imposing demands upon it. Elves say the arcane potency of nature crackled with vibrancy and force that could be felt by those walking the ground. Although human occupation has since caused mebhaighl to weaken, it is too essential a force to ever fade completely.

It is the manipulation of mebhaighl that empowers magecraft. Whether it is a subtle charm to determine the sex of an unborn child or a raw channeling of the mebhaighl to create balls of fire and storms of ice, all arcane lore is empowered through the shaping of the earth's vital energy. Lesser mages train extensively to master the subtlest manipulations of this energy. The lore of true mages, on the other hand, focuses on channeling vast amounts of mebhaighl to awesome and often violent effect. Thus, while both the lore of the lesser mage and the greater mage bend the same forces to achieve their ends, they are each capable of feats that the other is not. The lore of lesser mages is based in the subtle manipulation of mebhaighl. Lesser mages are masters of the arts of knowing (divination), seeming (illusion), commanding (enchantment), and healing (conjuration [healing]).


Divine Magic
Proficiency in all fields of arcane magic is based upon the caster’s understanding of the flow of mebhaighl and the development of practical or intuitive techniques to tap into this power and bend it towards the caster’s end. Divine magic is rooted in faith. Proficiency in divine magic is based upon the caster’s ability to focus and channel the energies of divine beings. Faith is the lens that allows mortal souls to access and direct this power.

When preparing spells each day, a Cerilian priest enters an enlightened state where the power of their faith allows them to tap into the spiritual force of their patron deity. Through simple rituals, the priest internalizes this divine force in the form of prepared spells of their choosing. The priest who transgresses against the beliefs and obligations of their faith may have a crisis of faith. Such a crisis is self-fulfilling, for self-doubt can interfere with the cleric's ability to channel the divine energy of their patron deity. Atonements, spiritual quests, and similar trials do not placate the gods so much as serve as a trial that allows the penitent party to restore their faith.

With a few notable exceptions, Cerilian gods do not directly interfere with the mortal world. Cerilian gods neither grant nor deny specific spells to their followers on the basis of the god's opinion of their behavior. Likewise, the gods do not communicate their wishes directly to their followers – it is the role of man to strive towards spiritual perfection without the direct intervention of the gods. At best, the gods communicate to their servants indirectly, through dreams and omens.

[irdeggman]

Replies in line below


***The material I quoted was from the game
"Birthright: the Gorgon`s Alliance"***

Never, ever use the compuer game as a basis for the RPG desk top one. This is one of the most common errors that people have. They have never read any of the 2nd ed material and rely on the computer game as their basis for judgement.

The game is a simplification of the entire system with limitations due to the fact that it is a computer game (a Win 95/DOS one at that). The game itself violates many, many rules of the "official" 2nd ed rules because of its very nature.

>
> You don`t have to be an elven necromancer to use
> necromantic magic...many elven casters used horrible
> magic of deadly effect against the human invaders
> during the Great War.
>
> Using magic of deadly effect is not the same as
> using Death Magic.


So exactly what magic could they use to "deadly
effect" if they had no death magic, no fireballs, no
summoning spells? What...did they charm whole armies
and make them fight each other? Or was it perhaps
that they brought death by plague to whole armies, or
summoned the creatures of the forest to battle against
humanity that would despoil the creatures native
habitat...or maybe even bring frigid ice to the camps
of the humans and freeze them to death by conjuring
horrible winter weather.

Again, you are insisting that they can't use evocations. The rules don't say that and never did. Don't ever expect an elf to throw a fireball though - far too much propensity to cause damage to the forest.


Spells with deadly effect that aren't necromancy, ecovation or conjuring:

Shapechange, Weird, Phantasma Killer, and yes the charm spells (what is more deadly than turning your own allies into deadly enemies), primsatic sphere, Disjunction, and any number of illusion spells.



I`m rather fed up with the notion that Cerilian Elves
are so restricted in their magic. An overzealous
notion of them being extreme tree huggers is about to
wear me out. Elves DO love nature...but they aren`t
so bound in their restrictions that they aren`t able
to defend it. If you like, they don`t summon dead
elves, they have a spell instead that summons nature
spirits that have the same effect.

Check out the free download - Bloodspawn and the elves tie to Aebrynnis and the Shadow World (it is under the Sie). That will explain a lot of things.

In BR elves are the ultimate tree huggers if you will, willing to defend the land to the death. That was the major reason they went to war with the human tirbes (including the Rjuirk - who share a love for the land, but struggle with expansionism.

BR elves are as much different the the standard D&D elves as are those from Dark Sun. Only in opposite extremes. IN Dark Sun the elves have no fondness for nature and would pretty much sell out a forest if it could make then a ceramic piece or two.


Break out of the box and imagine things that you
haven`t already read. By seeing the fact that the
folks that made Birthright approved the use of Death
Plague by an Elven monarch...its good enough for me.

Heck...if you really wanna know...ask Rich Baker.
Nevermind that...I`ll ask him.


Anthony Edwards


See comment above about relying on a computer game to define the rules of the setting and game.

Check out the Player's Secrets fo Tuarievel and the entry on sideath.

Check the pinned file Rich's files - which we got directly from the man himself.

[ConjurerDragon]

Gary schrieb:
> At 09:27 PM 7/31/2006, Anthony Edwards wrote:
> ...
> Death Plague seems apt for elves to use to me as well, particularly
> since they are immune to disease, so it would be the kind of weapon
> that fits into their racial superiority, if you will. Charm magics
> can be just as devastating as other destructive magics, however, and
> I`ve always been of the opinion that the sidhe would be perfectly
> happy employing them to the detriment of their foes. I don`t know
> exactly what they`ve done with realm level charm magics in the 3e
> update, but IIRC the only kinds of charm magics that we had in the
> original materials were battlespells, and I didn`t care for the
> concept of battlespells very much, personally, so I always ignored them.
Realm spells as Subversion, Defection were already in 2E

[Arjan]

Mail got accidentally deleted while not being imported, thus forwarding them
to list again.

Arjan

-----Original Message-----
From: Birthright RPG Discussion [mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On
Behalf Of Gary
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 5:31 AM
To: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] Realm Spell Saving Throws [19#3019]

At 09:30 AM 7/31/2006, you wrote:

>Where is the cardinal rule that says you can`t use a
>particular sanctioned material (such as the computer
>game) for basis of argument? Did TSR or WotC say
>this, or is this your own personal opinion?

I don`t think there is such a rule. Some folks are against idea of
computer games influencing RPGs, but IMO there is just as much reason
to borrow from computer games as any other source, probably a bit
more, really, since the interaction between them is more
direct. Lots of BR related material at the domain level is influence
by games like Civilization, for example. Similarly, we can take a
lot of stuff from other games (like computer wargames) and use them
in BR. When it comes to the computer game, for example, I believe it
was the only source of the original roads in Anuire. It named a
previously unnamed province on the maps (both of which were clearly
oversights in the original materials) and also includes very useable
maps for various sites in Anuire. Those are all very useful things
to have around in a pen & paper version of the game. Heck, I`d take
stuff from GTA if I thought it made sense, but I`ve never needed to
kill a hooker in BR.

>Seriously. Even elves have an adverse affect on
>nature in some degree; often a HUGE one. The
>resources it takes to simply equip an elven noble in
>full battle gear would have a great effect on the
>local ecology: mines, smithies, coal or some other
>fuel source, chemical treatment for his bow, grain for
>his horse, fabric for his clothes, looms made of wood
>to make his clothes, his estate (or modest tree home,
>what have you), his lance shaft, spears, sword,
>dagger, armor, shield of wood or steel, and on and on
>and on... This one man has effect on miles upon
>square miles of nature.

BR elves are different from the more "realistic" or "human-like" ones
in standard D&D or other campaign settings. One should assume the
industries of the sidhe are going to be very different from human
ones. In fact, "industry" probably isn`t even the right
term.... When it comes to elven metallurgy much of the material
could be generated from less intrusive mining processes (it doesn`t
hurt anything to pan for gold, for example) and metals might be more
easily gathered due to the elven understanding of nature. How might
mining change if you could ask the trees that have their roots in the
earth where the good place to dig for metals might be and they could
answer you directly?

It`s also very important to remember that elves are, by definition,
magical beings. The fires needed to smelt metal, shape it, etc. need
not be based on burning wood or coal at all. In fact, smelting might
not be necessary in the first place if the metals themselves are
magically derived. Is elven armor made from metal at all or is it
shaped and sculpted woods hardened and worked to the point that human
eyes can`t tell the difference between it and steel? Elven armor
might have very little actual metal in it, or the metal used could be
gathered in various ways that are very different from the methods
used by humans, dwarves, etc.

The wood used to create arrows can be derived from similarly magical
sources. The mount of an elven knight might itself be a natural
creature--an elk or other ungulate--that the knight simply charms for
the purpose of a battle and returns to its natural state (if it
survives) after the battle. If horses are the only thing one can
justify then elven husbandry is still as likely to employ magical or
nature-spirit methods as anything else they do. Their horses might
be so bred/magicked as to live on things that human horses do not,
their training would be such that it fits into their natural
tendances (as opposed to the human "breaking" a horse) and their
equipment suitable not just to warfare but to the abilities of both
horse and rider.

It should also be kept in mind that when the elves take from their
forests they are more able to rejuvenate those forests
afterward. When taking wood from a tree to make a bow and arrows,
for instance, the elf bowyer/fletcher might do so in a way that a
human woodsman might not even notice after a few weeks or even
days--maybe never at all.

Is elven clothe really clothe as humans understand it? Is it woven
from spidersilk by the spiders themselves directly into its shape as
a garment? Maybe it`s intermixed with the stuff of nature
itself--hence the abilities of elven cloaks, boots, etc.

Anything having to do with the sidhe should first be assumed to have
some sort of otherworldly, magical property, beginning with its
manufacture. It might not be the outright magic than D&D assumes in
the spell system, but it is an alternate technology that represents a
slight tweak in the fundamental physics employed.

Gary

[Arjan]

Mail got accidentally deleted while not being imported, thus forwarding them
to list again.

Arjan

-----Original Message-----
From: Birthright RPG Discussion [mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On
Behalf Of Anthony Edwards
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 6:27 AM
To: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] Realm Spell Saving Throws [19#3019]

I LIKE THIS!

Very well thought out. I was locked in the headstrong
opinion that Cerilia is a "low/rare" magic world; but
your thoughts on Sidhe "technology" has helped me
think more on the topic and brought me to a different
way of thinking.

I like your ideas a great deal in fact...so much so
that it has actually changed my stance on some things
concerning the Sidhe to the point I might speak
differently than I have...but only slightly so! LOL

As for using the Computer Game (Birthright: the
Gorgon`s Alliance), I had no choice but to use it for
the very reasons you mention. While some of the
domain source books had roads on their maps...the vast
majority of Anuire lacked this information.

I still stand by my opinion that Elves DO use
particularly nasty magic at times. Death Plague would
be a spell well within the thinking of a race bent on
protecting nature at all costs: by slaying vast
numbers of an enemy culture, it allows nature to
recover the land over time. It also has no adverse
effect upon the land itself...only the sentient
civilized people upon it.

In fact, as a Regent Player of the Sielwode, I used
Death Plague VERY often. With judicious use of
Warding and this spell...I was able to reclaim nearly
all of Markazor, hedge in the Gorgon, and re-colonize
the land with elven settlers after reducing the goblin
population to ZERO! I had help from the Dwarves and
Mhoried of course...but everyone needs help if they
are honestly going to go against ol` horny head. No
need to go on about what shared borders between two
elven nations meant for neighbors...but it was only
with the use of "forbidden" magic. I even used Mass
Destruction. Didn`t see a problem with freezing
goblins to death, or having a sudden swollen river
swallow them and drown them while they were crossing.

The only spells I refrained from in fact were Legion
of the Dead and Summoning...and I can`t say the DM was
so controlled in his use of the Manslayer...but of
course that fella breaks the rules anyway.

Thanks for a good post Gary!


Anthony Edwards

--- Gary <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET> wrote:
>
> I don`t think there is such a rule. Some folks are
> against idea of
> computer games influencing RPGs, but IMO there is
> just as much reason
> to borrow from computer games as any other source,
> probably a bit
> more, really, since the interaction between them is
> more
> direct. Lots of BR related material at the domain
> level is influence
> by games like Civilization, for example. Similarly,
> we can take a
> lot of stuff from other games (like computer
> wargames) and use them
> in BR. When it comes to the computer game, for
> example, I believe it
> was the only source of the original roads in Anuire.
> It named a
> previously unnamed province on the maps (both of
> which were clearly
> oversights in the original materials) and also
> includes very useable
> maps for various sites in Anuire.

***snip of good post***

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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[Arjan]

Mail got accidentally deleted while not being imported, thus forwarding them
to list again.

Arjan

-----Original Message-----
From: Birthright RPG Discussion [mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On
Behalf Of Gary
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 3:54 PM
To: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] Realm Spell Saving Throws [19#3019]

At 09:27 PM 7/31/2006, Anthony Edwards wrote:

>Very well thought out. I was locked in the headstrong
>opinion that Cerilia is a "low/rare" magic world; but
>your thoughts on Sidhe "technology" has helped me
>think more on the topic and brought me to a different
>way of thinking.

Glad to hear you found it useful. The low/rare opinion works very
well for every OTHER race of Cerilia, though, so it`s perfectly apt
most of the time. It`s easy to forget that BR elves are meant to be
different from standard, D&D elves and want to apply more human-like
ideas to them. In fact, there`s really no reason why they shouldn`t
have magic items more in line with those of standard D&D
characters--maybe even more since immortal elves might be more
willing the sacrifice XP in their manufacture knowing they will
always have time to get that power back.

On a semi-related note: I have always suspected that BR dwarves (and
all underground races of all campaigns, really) would really have to
employ metallurgical methods other than those used traditionally by
humans. A modest smelting project would go through the oxygen of an
enclosed space quickly enough to kill off the whole population unless
there were air intakes large enough that they`d probably suck in
small animals on a pretty regular basis. One good magical heat
source, however, could eliminate that problem (assuming that a
magical heat doesn`t require air) or some other method of refining
metals would be necessary.

>I still stand by my opinion that Elves DO use
>particularly nasty magic at times. Death Plague would
>be a spell well within the thinking of a race bent on
>protecting nature at all costs: by slaying vast
>numbers of an enemy culture, it allows nature to
>recover the land over time. It also has no adverse
>effect upon the land itself...only the sentient
>civilized people upon it.

Death Plague seems apt for elves to use to me as well, particularly
since they are immune to disease, so it would be the kind of weapon
that fits into their racial superiority, if you will. Charm magics
can be just as devastating as other destructive magics, however, and
I`ve always been of the opinion that the sidhe would be perfectly
happy employing them to the detriment of their foes. I don`t know
exactly what they`ve done with realm level charm magics in the 3e
update, but IIRC the only kinds of charm magics that we had in the
original materials were battlespells, and I didn`t care for the
concept of battlespells very much, personally, so I always ignored them.

I recall writing up a little account of how an elf (or any wizard,
really, though elves account for the vast majority of those able to
wield wizard magic) could employ various spells like Magic Jar to
wipe out a unit of soldiers in a matter of minutes. There`s no
reason why an elven wizard couldn`t use that spell even though it is
in the school of necromancy. (It`s one of those spells that could
qualify as being in enchantment/charm without too much
rationalization.) Any number of other spells might be as
devastating. What if an elven wizard encountered a troop of soldiers
after having enchanted a Wand of Mass Reduce Person? While that
might not actually _harm_ the soldiers, would a unit still be able to
drill effectively, fight as a cohesive unit, etc. if many of them
were suddenly shrunk to half their normal height? How about just the
mounts of a cavalry unit? If performed during a charge it could be
pretty damaging. (I don`t think the Ride skill description lists the
DC for that kind of check....) Destructive to morale AND
funny. Gotta love that.

Gary

[Fizz]

Very well thought out. I was locked in the headstrong
opinion that Cerilia is a "low/rare" magic world; but
your thoughts on Sidhe "technology" has helped me
think more on the topic and brought me to a different
way of thinking.

I myself have often described Birthright as a rare magic setting. Which is true in the context of rules. Classes, magic items etc are all fewer or less common than other settings.

But within the setting, the world is full of magic, flowing with maebhaigl.
But only a few can tap it. Only by race or bloodline does one have the ability to tap true magic.

So really, it's a `rare magic-user' setting. :)


-Fizz

[geeman]

Another thing to consider when it comes to the BR attitude/themes
towards magic is that unlike many D&D worlds, and many fantasy worlds
in general, magic is actually growing in strength rather than dying
out. That magic is getting "used up" or "replaced" by technology is
a mainstay of fantasy fiction. It gets used in all kinds of campaign
settings too. However, in BR magic is getting more powerful, albeit
very slowly. Consider:

1. The power of bloodlines allows thousands of characters to gain
access to wizard spells that they did not have previously.

2. Elves are in decline, but that decline appears to have been pretty
substantially slowed since BoD. That is, their realms seem fairly
stable. Though their eventual demise seems likely it would appear
they never took advantage of the full range of source holdings that
were available in Cerilia, focusing on their forested
provinces. While forests have been reduced it seems humans have
taken more advantage of source holdings in other terrains, making the
overall number of controlled sources much larger.

3A. Two new gods have appeared on the scene since the BoD, creating
whole new spheres, priests, etc.

3B. The religious structures of BR are themselves magical, and though
they are not able to create magic items with the same ability that
wizards do they are definitely an expansion of magic in the continent overall.

4. Nobody really knows for sure what the deal is with the Land`s
Choice, but it would appear that there is some sort of mind behind
the magical power of Cerilia, at least in regards to how bloodlines
are transferred. With bloodlines affecting all the races of Cerilia
that means the power behind the bloodline has influence over all of
them since the BoD.

None of those things represent a massive resurgence of magic, really,
but they do make one wonder what the magical "face" of Cerilia might
look like in a the coming millenia.

Gary

[gazza666]

How might
mining change if you could ask the trees that have their roots in the
earth where the good place to dig for metals might be and they could
answer you directly?

Maybe I'm having a dense day here, but short of using Wish to duplicate an appropriate druid spell, I don't see how elves can actually do this.



It's also very important to remember that elves are, by definition,
magical beings. The fires needed to smelt metal, shape it, etc. need
not be based on burning wood or coal at all. In fact, smelting might
not be necessary in the first place if the metals themselves are
magically derived.

Such as using Wall of Iron + Fabricate?

That way great, great danger lies. Letting PCs get away with this to break the personal economics of gear-by-level is bad enough in a standard game; building this assumption into the setting such that elves are assumed to routinely do this to avoid mining would mean that the elven economy is fundamentally different from everyone elses (assuming not all races use this trick). We do not see this reflected anywhere - elves still pay the same amount for their units, PCs still use the same price list.

To say nothing of the fact that magically creating metals sounds suspiciously like the disfavoured conjuration school, of course.

If one really wanted to say that elves avoided mining, I suspect it might be better to push them along the road of having substitutes for metals. There are some special materials in Eberron that could suit, and if you wanted to you could say that Mithral was some sort of plant product...



Is elven armor made from metal at all or is it shaped and sculpted woods hardened and worked to the point that human eyes can't tell the difference between it and steel?

... which I see you've already considered. These are not terrible ideas, but they would need to be covered somewhere, as the difference is not necessarily negligible. For example, are these elven wood-shaped materials vulnerable to rust, or spells such as Heat Metal? Do they have the same hardness? Are they particularly susceptible to fire?

Fleshing out elves so that they had this sort of uniqueness is definitely an interesting path to take - but I don't believe the core rules support it at present.



The wood used to create arrows can be derived from similarly magical
sources.

Well, it could, but I would have thought that elves had plenty of "non-magical" wood lying around.


Their horses might
be so bred/magicked as to live on things that human horses do not
There are "elven horses" listed in the core rules monster section which may have the properties you mention.

If one were so inclined, one could borrow bits from Gloranthan elves, who use such unique items as living "elf bows" specially grown for the purpose. The "biological technology" from Harry Harrison's "West of Eden" trilogy might also be a good source.

[The Jew]

For those who think that denying the elves death plague is some drastic reduction of power, just check out the realm spell Subversion. Take into account that Goblins and gnolls are always considered mercenaries. I'm attempting to defeat an army of the Gorgon which is easily crushing a large section of Anuires military might. The Gorgons army holds the gates of doom. Death plague does have its uses, but their are a lot of more subtle spells which can also wreak havok.

[dalor]

I understand that Subversion is an awesome spell...but
it is also a temporary one.

In a Genocidal War (which the elves sometimes wage
against their enemies on a limited basis) Death Plague
is simply the best option.

You both take away a population base with which your
enemy musters troops and also his tax base. Both of
which destroys his ability to wage war on your own
nation while simultaneously destroying your enemy
without need of your own forces acting on the
battlefield.

I can understand the thinking that Death Plague is
taboo...I just can`t see it being ignored in favor of
simply subverting an enemy`s military forces and
PERHAPS them obtaining the same objective you are sure
to gain by use of such a precise and deadly spell.

As Caelcormac (son of Isaelie), King of the Sielwode,
I used Subversion also...but only on units that would
at times penetrate my defenses and attack my homeland.
It is very hard to fight the Gorgon`s power and gain
sources in his domain. I only accomplished
depopulation of Markazor by obtaining sources in
Mhoried and using them to cast my Death Plague. Sure,
humans died, but my Chaotic Neutral Monarch was also
secretly all in favor of the Gheallie Sidhe...taking
part in it on numerous occasions for raids into the
Gorgon`s vassal state in Brechtur (and later helping
rid Tuarhieval in "cleansing" its provinces as well).
He even had dealings with a dragon...paying it vast
sums of treasure (essentially tribute if you will; but
more of an alliance) to act in his behalf...is that
something an Elf wouldn`t do in Cerilia?

I will stand firm on my opinion that Realm Spells are
a special form of magic beyond the ken of standard
spells...and should be exempt from the traditional
biase of the Cerlilian Elves. Before humans were
blooded, do you think the elves hadn`t already used
these magics? Who created them? Surely Azrai may
have sought to subvert the elves with such a deadly
weapon as Death Plague...and surely they accepted it
during the wars before the Gods were destroyed.

I see Realm Magic differently than "common" magic.
And I guess that will just have to be my personal
thoughts on the matter.

Anthony Edwards

--- The Jew <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:
> For those who think that denying the elves death
> plague is some drastic reduction of power, just
> check out the realm spell Subversion. Take into
> account that Goblins and gnolls are always
> considered mercenaries. I`m attempting to defeat an
> army of the Gorgon which is easily crushing a large
> section of Anuires military might. The Gorgons army
> holds the gates of doom. Death plague does have its
> uses, but their are a lot of more subtle spells
> which can also wreak havok.

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[irdeggman]

I will stand firm on my opinion that Realm Spells are
a special form of magic beyond the ken of standard
spells...and should be exempt from the traditional
biase of the Cerlilian Elves. Before humans were
blooded, do you think the elves hadn`t already used
these magics? Who created them? Surely Azrai may
have sought to subvert the elves with such a deadly
weapon as Death Plague...and surely they accepted it
during the wars before the Gods were destroyed.

No Realm Magic as it is known did not exist before Deismaar. The power of Realm Magic is so directly tied into the power of the gods that no living being (including elves) could tap into it without being consumed.

An elf still needs to be a scion in order to cast Realm Magic, just having elven blood is insufficient.


I see Realm Magic differently than "common" magic.
And I guess that will just have to be my personal
thoughts on the matter.

Anthony Edwards

This is not out of whack, but again the "rules" need to dry lines somewhere and leave other "details" to the GMs. This is not a "house-rule" that is not something that can't be "defended" in that context.

Now to find pieces of information that might explain or show what could happen to the elves if they use powerfurl necromantic magic there are a couple of elvens lands depicted that may give some insight. Well at least potentially.

One is Sideath in the Player's Secrets of Tuarhievel. "As detailed in the history section, Sibharrinn unleashed magics of nightmarish proportions to halt the Gorgon's army when it threatened this land. Now, Sideath apparently exists more in the Shadow World than Cerilia."

Another is Tuar Annwn in the Tribes of the Heartless Wastes. "Tuar Annwn, alone of Cerilian realms, exists in two worlds - both on Aebrynis and on the Shadow World. Somehow, in their desperation to survive, the wizards of Tuar Annwn called upon and harnessed the power of the Shadow World. During the battle wit the Vos, however, thy lost cntrol of their spells and the heart of the Grovnekevic Forest now lies soemwhere between two planes."

IMO these two locations could serve as reminders to the elves of how powerful magic is and what effect in can have on Aebrynis.

[irdeggman]

Here is some 2nd ed source material information.

From Bloodspawn

When two worlds were one. . . . (sidebar pg 5)

“The sages say that long ago, perhaps before humanity existed on Aebrynis, the world of Daylight and the world of Shadow were as one. The landscape of Aebrynis had not completely formed then, and the world could change according to its own rules, without rhyme or reason. A lake might form where a mountain had been, white glaciers moved over deserts, and rivers flowed through the sky. This was a time before the gods, but it ultimately resulted in their creation.

The gods, it is believed, were formed out of the land, and their natures bound them to it. Not wishing their natures to change without warning, as did the land, they began to enforce their will upon the world. Mountains, rivers, shores, and seas all took shape and stayed constant, bent to the will of the young gods. But one god delighted in the ever-changing world and refused to bind his will and his being to the land. That god became Lord of Shadow, the god of Chaos and Change. He became Azrai.

Little is known of the gods’ earliest years in this time before humans and, perhaps, before elves. Giants walked the earth along with near-immortal beasts and other beings lost to the passage of time. It is said, however, that in the beginning Azrai alone the gods willed change and evolution into being. If this is true, the race of humanity— as well as many of the other races now inhabiting Aebrynis—owe their existence to him.

The elements of permanence and transience—light and shadow—warred in those early days, and their battles grew so great that a rift formed between the land of Shadow and the land of Daylight. Passage between the two was still possible, even common, in those days, but soon (as gods measure time) the Shadow World and the world of Aebrynis solidified their borders. Aebrynis remained constant, only transforming in response to the actions of its inhabitants over long periods, while the Shadow World remained mutable and ever-changing.

Then came Deismaar, the destruction of the gods, and the cleaving of the world. The Shadow World became a place of fear and strange tales for those remaining on Aebrynis and now, more than fifteen hundred years later, only a scant number of people know more than a few tales of the Shadow World and its inhabitants.

The Shadow World remains in flux. Halflings alone of Cerilia’s races may still pass freely between the two worlds and, since halflings fled the Shadow World in response to a terror they will not reveal, most are loathe to do so. And even a halfling would find it difficult to navigate the ever-changing land of Shadow.”


Faeire, Seelie – ecology (pg 27)

“The seelie faeries were the first children of the Shadow World. Long ago, when the waking world and the Shadow World were one, a race known as the Sie (“see”) populated the land. These creatures were beings of great magic, innate wielders of both sorcery that worked with nature (priestly spells) and sorcery that broke the rules of nature (wizardly spells). They cast their spells not by the prayer of priests or the rote memorization of human wizards, but rather the gathering of magical energies (the process yet employed by today’s elves).

The force that spilt the world into two halves was so strong that it also split the land’s inhabitants, ripping the Sie in twain. Each creature became two separate entities—a faerie (seelie) in the Shadow World and an elf (Sidhe) in Cerilia. The seelie retained control of natural magic and gained power over a new force in the Shadow World: the Seeming. The Sidhe retained control of wizardly magic and became bound to the land itself.

Though the ancient link between the two peoples has long since been forgotten by all but the Faerie Queen (the only surviving Sie), to this day, when an elf is born in Cerilia, a new faerie appears in the Seelie Court. While it is possible that a traveling elf or faerie could meet its counterpart, no one knows what would happen in such an extraordinary event.

Unless slain, seelie faeries are immortal in the Shadow World but mortal in Cerilia. Conversely, elves are immortal in Cerilia but mortal in the Shadow World. The faeries are as attuned to the nature of the Shadow World as elves are to Cerilia. This link enables them to exist in such a hostile environment with virtually no natural predators. The evil of the Shadow World, however, holds plenty of unnatural ones.

Seelie faeries are generally vegetarians, subsisting primarily on fruits, nuts, roots, and seeds. They do, however, eat meat when it is offered to them. The fair folk have an aversion to milk—a means by which savvy individuals have been known to expose a faerie so masked in the Seeming that its identity was otherwise indeterminable.”


Player’ Secrets of Tuarhievel (pg 20)

“The philosophy taught by the taelinre consists of three basic beliefs. First, the elves believe they were formed as the result of the union of the four elements: earth, water, air, and fire. These elements naturally contest one another in an unending struggle for dominance. Within the elven spirit, they bring about the mood swings that characterize the elves. Individual elves are often influenced more heavily by one of the four elements, and it is the task of the taelinri to help them achieve a more harmonious balance.

The second aspect of elven philosophy is one that most annoys other races, especially humans. The elves believe that, as a result of their unique creation, they have a greater capacity to perceive the world around them and feel its inherent beauty. The intensity and range of their emotions are the results of both their origins and their immortality. As taught by the tarlinri, these emotions allow them to perceive and create beauty unlike any other race. Their music, craftsmanship, and way of life demonstrate this capacity. Other races see this as cultural arrogance, but the elves accept it as a natural extension of their origin.

Third, the tarlinri help their people achieve a sense of themselves as individuals. Perhaps no aspect of elven culture confuses other races more than the focus on the individual. The elves recognize that they can no more be ruled than can the four elements from which they sprang. They have never understood the human belief that to govern, one must rule.”

[irdeggman]

And some more about the elves' connection to the Shadow World.

Bloodspawn – Cwn Annwn (pg 19)

“Elves harbor an innate, ancestral fear of the Shadow World, and cwn annwn are
part of the reason why. These hounds roam the Shadow World in packs, hunting
elves. Once they catch an elven scent, they pursue their quarry mercilessly.

Even if an elf is not among the party, PCs who have had close dealings with an elf in the past week may find themselves pursued by cwn annwn.

The ominous baying of cwn Annwn can be heard up to two miles away. Thus an encounter with the hounds is rarely a surprise—though always harrowing.”


Bloodspawn- Wild Hunt (pg 59-60)


“The Wild Hunt is a fearsome party of unseelie faeries, undead, shadow steeds, and cwn annwn that stampedes through forests in a never-ending hunt for elves. Most often encountered in the Shadow World, the hunters have been known to enter Cerilia in their quest for prey.

The Wild Hunt is truly a spectacle to behold. Hunters of all shapes and sizes, sporting gruesome visages, charge forth on shadow steeds in fierce pursuit of fleeing elves. Baying cwn annwn add their howls to the clamor of shouting riders and thundering hooves as the din echoes for miles. The Hunt cuts a merciless swath through the forest, sparing not trees, nor plants, nor stray creatures in its path.

And after this violent fury has passed through the Shadow World terrain—not a trace of the Hunt remains. An appearance of the Wild Hunt is always an event, even in its home terrain of the Shadow World.

Appearances in Cerilia occur rarely— perhaps once every five centuries—and are considered bad omens. In its aftermath, humans and dwarves probably won’t know what happened (their memories don’t extend far enough). But the elves will become very uneasy, particularly if the frequency of occurrences increases. Not only does the Wild Hunt present a danger to the safety of the Sidhe, but it signifies an intrusion of the Shadow World’s power into Cerilia.

The deep-rooted fear elves harbor toward the Shadow World derives in no small part from ancestral memories of the Wild Hunt. The how and why of its origin have been lost to time. Some believe it stems from the war between the Seelie and Unseelie Courts (refer to the “Faerie, Unseelie” entry), while others think it goes back further, to the time when the seelie and Sidhe people were one (see the “Faerie, Seelie” entry). Regardless, it has been pursuing and persecuting elves as long as anyone can remember.

Comprising supernatural creatures who can go on living—or unliving—forever if not defeated in combat, the Wild Hunt is a tireless, ongoing pursuit. As members fall, others join the quest. The Hunt never stops. Sometimes it doesn’t even pause to slay its quarry, but simply tramples the elf to death in its endless drive.

The entourage is led by the Master of the Hunt, an evil faerie from the Unseelie Court. The Huntmaster is a tall, gaunt figure with large black eyes and a sinister, toothy grin. His harsh voice, often shouting out in pursuit, echoes loudly enough to be heard above the thundering hooves of the Hunt’s shadow steeds. The Master of the Hunt is considered a favored noble of the Unseelie Court, though he never breaks from the Hunt to visit it. Should he ever fall in battle, the Dark Queen would appoint another of her courtiers to take his place.

Like a speeding train, the Wild Hunt charges ahead regardless of what lies in its path—including portals. Occasionally, the Wild Hunt, in hot pursuit of its pre y, lunges right through an open portal and storms into Cerilia. When this occurs, the Hunt leaves behind evidence of its passing (unlike in the Shadow World) .

Huge swaths of trees are felled, crops and fields are trampled. The region is left looking like a tornado has blown through it.

The Wild Hunt is believed to have inspired the ghaellie Sidhe.Searching for a way to drive humans from their land, the elves created their own Hunt. The Wild Hunt appears (optionally) in “Courting Danger.”

This section discusses the Wild Hunt as a single entity. For information about the creatures that compose it, see their individual entries in this book and in the MONSTROUSMANUAL tome.

The Wild Hunt creates such a cacophony as it charges through the forest that it cannot gain surprise against potential prey. Even the deaf can sense it coming through reverberations in the ground.

The hunters use bows to attack from a distance. Though about 200 individual creatures make up the Hunt, only about 20 (10%) of them can get off a clear shot in a single round. Each arrow inflicts 1d6 points of damage.

Once the hunt closes in on its prey, either the cwn annwn rush in to attack (see separate entry) of the riders use their momentum to trample their quarry beneath the shadow steeds’ hooves. Trample victims suffer 4d10 points of damage and must pass a system shock roll or die.

The Wild Hunt is immune to illusions and phantasms, slow and other movement-affecting
spells, and walls. Only a globe of invulnerability, limited wish ,or wish can divert the Hunt off its path .

Though the sum of 200 hunters’ Hit Dice would exceed 50, that number has been listed as a guideline for “defeating” the Wild Hunt. Should characters manage to bring the Hunt down to 0 hit points, the Hunt disbands and regroups in 6d8 hours.

Though the Hunt ignores any creatures but elves, it does not divert its path to avoid them. Therefore, even non-elf player characters had better dive out of its way to avoid being trampled.

The Master of the Hunt, as an unseelie faerie, has the ability to cloak the Wild Hunt in the Seeming. He generally does not bother to do so, however, for it makes a fearsome enough spectacle all by itself. The Hunt itself has no perception score, though individual members might.”

[dalor]

I always had trouble with this line of thought.
While, by the rules, wizards needed to be blooded to
cast Realm Spells...was there not an equivalent to
"High Magic" or "Epic" spells for the elves? The
sheer magical nature of their cities and
fortifications makes me think that they had some sort
of magic beyond levels 0-9 at their disposal.

For this reason, I again say that particularly
powerful magic was had by them that could have been
nearly equal, if not outright equal, to Realm Spells
prior to the destruction of the Gods.


Anthony Edwards


--- irdeggman <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:
>
> No Realm Magic as it is known did not exist before
> Deismaar. The power of Realm Magic is so directly
> tied into the power of the gods that no living being
> (including elves) could tap into it without being
> consumed.
>
> An elf still needs to be a scion in order to cast
> Realm Magic, just having elven blood is
> insufficient.


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[irdeggman]

I always had trouble with this line of thought.
While, by the rules, wizards needed to be blooded to
cast Realm Spells...was there not an equivalent to
"High Magic" or "Epic" spells for the elves? The
sheer magical nature of their cities and
fortifications makes me think that they had some sort
of magic beyond levels 0-9 at their disposal.

For this reason, I again say that particularly
powerful magic was had by them that could have been
nearly equal, if not outright equal, to Realm Spells
prior to the destruction of the Gods.


Anthony Edwards



Noting of course that Realm spells are available to non-epic level (i.e., less than 21st level) spell casters.

So while epic magic could have existing prior to Deismaar - it took the blood of the gods to allow non-epic level characters to be able to handle the true power.

Also noting that prior to Deismaar no race other than those with elven blood could cast true magic. In 2nd ed terminology this translated into any spell above 2nd level in any school but Illusion and Divination. So being capable of casting 5th level wizard spells alone would seem deity like when compared to humans who couldn't cast anything above 2nd level spells.

If elves could have been casting realm spells while humans were limited to 2nd level wizard spells and the normal progression of clerical magic - well IMO the humans would have "lost" the war without much doubt.

[geeman]

At 06:53 PM 8/1/2006, gazza666 wrote:

>>How might mining change if you could ask the trees that have their
>>roots in the earth where the good place to dig for metals might be
>>and they could answer you directly?
>
>Maybe I`m having a dense day here, but short of using Wish to
>duplicate an appropriate druid spell, I don`t see how elves can
>actually do this.

Well, not to spill the worms too far from the can and engage in the
whole "nature spells for BR elves" debate again, but I think BR elves
should have access to many "druid" spells. Even if they haven`t
acquired them naturally, well before humans gained access to wizard
magic, then they would have created those spells on their own.

That aside, however, elves can still be bards and rangers in the 3e
update, can`t they? Speak with Plants is still "Level: Brd 4, Drd 3,
Rgr 2" right?

>>It`s also very important to remember that elves are, by definition,
>>magical beings. The fires needed to smelt metal, shape it, etc.
>>need not be based on burning wood or coal at all. In fact,
>>smelting might not be necessary in the first place if the metals
>>themselves are magically derived.
>
>Such as using Wall of Iron + Fabricate?
>
>That way great, great danger lies. Letting PCs get away with this to
>break the personal economics of gear-by-level is bad enough in a
>standard game; building this assumption into the setting such that
>elves are assumed to routinely do this to avoid mining would mean
>that the elven economy is fundamentally different from everyone
>elses (assuming not all races use this trick). We do not see this
>reflected anywhere - elves still pay the same amount for their
>units, PCs still use the same price list.

I`d argue that the BR elven economy *is* fundamentally different from
that of any other BR race. We see it reflected in two major racial
characteristics in the BR materials--though the value of the GB or
the use of them isn`t particularly one of them. However, the way
their population expansion does not destroy source holding potential
as does the expansion every other race is. Other races do things like
dig mines that destroy the environment/damage sources. Elves simply
create their material or otherwise obtain it magically. We also see
in it in the fact that elves have very little interest in guild
holdings--their economy is simply different, so guilds don`t interest
them. Why have guilds to control mines when metal is derived through
magic? Magical characters take charge of such things, and elves
appear to exist in more of a strangely violent, racially uptight
"collective" than the other more materialistic races of Cerilia so
internal trade/commerce just operates in a different way.

>To say nothing of the fact that magically creating metals sounds
>suspiciously like the disfavoured conjuration school, of course.

I think one of the issues here is that folks are reading more
significance into the disfavored school issue than is it really
merits. All it really means is that they don`t "favor" those
spells. There would be few elven specialists in them. There are a
lot of spells within that/those schools that are inappropriate for BR
elves, but we should neither take that to mean that every spell in a
school has the same stigma nor that the school itself is absolutely
taboo or beyond their ken. Wall of Iron, for instance, is not
something elves might find much joy in compared to, say, Wall of
Thorns but where the first is just unusual and not directly related
to elven character the latter definitely is and eliminating it from
the sidhe repertoire (even though its not even a wiz/sor spell
normally) seems like missing the point in order to keep parity with
the core rules. Disfavored is a kind of general thing and should
mean something more on the order of them avoiding the school rather
than never using it at all. That is, they`d conjure things they
actually need, but not enough to trade outside elven realms, or a
standard that was similar to that.

>If one really wanted to say that elves avoided mining, I suspect it
>might be better to push them along the road of having substitutes
>for metals. There are some special materials in Eberron that could
>suit, and if you wanted to you could say that Mithral was some sort
>of plant product...

Retconning mithral into a vegetable for BR elves doesn`t strike me as
being any less drastic a solution than magically created metal, but
whatever works, I guess.

Gary

[irdeggman]

I`d argue that the BR elven economy *is* fundamentally different from
that of any other BR race. We see it reflected in two major racial
characteristics in the BR materials--though the value of the GB or
the use of them isn`t particularly one of them. However, the way
their population expansion does not destroy source holding potential
as does the expansion every other race is. Other races do things like
dig mines that destroy the environment/damage sources. Elves simply
create their material or otherwise obtain it magically. We also see
in it in the fact that elves have very little interest in guild
holdings--their economy is simply different, so guilds don`t interest
them. Why have guilds to control mines when metal is derived through
magic? Magical characters take charge of such things, and elves
appear to exist in more of a strangely violent, racially uptight
"collective" than the other more materialistic races of Cerilia so
internal trade/commerce just operates in a different way.

This is very good.

It is another example of why the GB is an abstraction of many things and not "hard currency".



I think one of the issues here is that folks are reading more
significance into the disfavored school issue than is it really
merits. All it really means is that they don`t "favor" those
spells. There would be few elven specialists in them. There are a
lot of spells within that/those schools that are inappropriate for BR
elves, but we should neither take that to mean that every spell in a
school has the same stigma nor that the school itself is absolutely
taboo or beyond their ken. Wall of Iron, for instance, is not
something elves might find much joy in compared to, say, Wall of
Thorns but where the first is just unusual and not directly related
to elven character the latter definitely is and eliminating it from
the sidhe repertoire (even though its not even a wiz/sor spell
normally) seems like missing the point in order to keep parity with
the core rules. Disfavored is a kind of general thing and should
mean something more on the order of them avoiding the school rather
than never using it at all. That is, they`d conjure things they
actually need, but not enough to trade outside elven realms, or a
standard that was similar to that.
Gary

I agree with most of this and have pretty much said the same. I don't think that there would be specialists in disfavored schools, well at least essentially none since they would be extremely rare to the point of almost singular. So I wouldn't say "none" but pretty close to being none.

Disfavor means "avoid" and "rare" because of it. Now remembering that arcane magic is not "rare" in elven society compared to other cultures this would logically have that even the "rare" spells are more commmon in elven cultures than in others.

Shunned on the other hand is much more restrictive.

[dalor]

I completely disagree. Even in 2nd Edition, Clerics
were easily equal to countering a wizards magic...and
then smashing a wizard in the head with his mace.
This of course if he was solely prepared to do battle
against a wizard.

The fact that humans had vastly greater numbers than
the Sidhe tells me they also had more clerics than the
Sidhe had wizards. Especially as the Anuirean`s
ancestors had a personal divine patron in the form of
the "King" of the gods. Elsewhere it can be seen that
humans had much less impact on Elvendom than the
Anuireans did. The Anuireans most likely had large
numbers of religious folks chomping at the bit to
enter religious services (just as in the Middle-Ages
when the monastic and priestly orders had massive
influx of "refugees" from among the poor and displaced
during war and famine because the monks and priests
were well taken care of by the common folk as well as
patronage by the nobility).

The reason the elves lost was because of Divine
Magic...as stated in the release of the boxed set.
Elves couldn`t heal their soldiers as the humans
could. Elves also couldn`t compete with the prolific
breeding rate of the humans.

A solid example of superior technology (in this case
magic) still being trumped by an inferior enemy exists
all through our own history: Huns, Franks, Goths,
Vandals and etc. all had inferior technology to the
Eastern and Western Empires of the Romans...but they
still kicked their tails numerous times because of
pure savagery and numbers...Historically it is easily
seen that when an ENTIRE people is on the move, the
only recourse for peoples opposing them is to move,
absorb them, or perish. Earlier tribal invasions of
Roman territory had NOT been entire peoples on the
move; but only raiding and attempts at land grabs by
fewer numbers. Settlement by large swathes of
territory in the Western Roman Empire by barbarians
are the philosophy of absorbtion...but it doesn`t
always pan out. Lazy and debauched...the western
romans forgot to continually train their soldiers into
their fabled Legions and instead started relying on
barbarians for their soldiers.

Soooo...in short:

The Sidhe lost because entire peoples moved into their
territory and outnumbered them. It had little to do
with magic in my thoughts; although the clerics among
the humans no doubt caused a further imbalance and
allowed their less technologically evolved brethren to
overpower the Sidhe on more than one occasion
obviously. The Sidhe were weak...compared to their
new enemy and despite their "greater technology" used
against the enemy. They lost out completely against
the human "technology" of gods!


Anthony Edwards

--- irdeggman <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:
>
> Noting of course that Realm spells are available to
> non-epic level (i.e., less than 21st level) spell
> casters.
>
> So while epic magic could have existing prior to
> Deismaar - it took the blood of the gods to allow
> non-epic level characters to be able to handle the
> true power.
>
> Also noting that prior to Deismaar no race other
> than those with elven blood could cast true magic.
> In 2nd ed terminology this translated into any spell
> above 2nd level in any school but Illusion and
> Divination. So being capable of casting 5th level
> wizard spells alone would seem deity like when
> compared to humans who couldn`t cast anything above
> 2nd level spells.
>
> If elves could have been casting realm spells while
> humans were limited to 2nd level wizard spells and
> the normal progression of clerical magic - well IMO
> the humans would have "lost" the war without much
> doubt.


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[Fizz]

I completely disagree. Even in 2nd Edition, Clerics
were easily equal to countering a wizards magic...and
then smashing a wizard in the head with his mace.
This of course if he was solely prepared to do battle
against a wizard.

I disagree. Clerical spells are largely supportive spells. Very few (compared to a wizard's selection) are designed to dish out massive amounts of damage. Compare just about any wizard spell to a cleric spell with similar effects- the cleric spell will be a higher level or else have other conditions upon it that makes it less potent (allows a save, etc).

2nd Ed may not have been the bastion of balance that 3E is, but if clerics were as powerful magically as wizards AND they could fight in melee, it'd be horribly unbalanced. (And clerics had a much better XP progression, meaning they were less potent than wizards in the long run.)


The reason the elves lost was because of Divine
Magic...as stated in the release of the boxed set.
Elves couldn`t heal their soldiers as the humans
could. Elves also couldn`t compete with the prolific
breeding rate of the humans.

I agree with you here. In fact, the Atlas of Cerilia says the old gods favored the humans so much as to virtually cripple the elves.


A solid example of superior technology (in this case
magic) still being trumped by an inferior enemy exists
all through our own history:

In this case, i wouldn't call either form of magic inferior to the other, just different. The big difference is that humans still had SOME forms of arcane magic (lesser magic). But the elves had NO divine magic. The net result of available magics favors the humans.

But had the elves had Realm magic, i think they would have won. They could have inflicted casualties (in many ways, from direct damage to destroying crops, etc) on the humans across whole provinces, not just in battle, without any rebuttal from the humans.


-Fizz

[dalor]

To save space and time I`m going to reply to two
topics here:

First, is the Computer game "official" material or
not? From irdeggman:

Quote: "It appears that you have extremely limited
knowledge of the setting itself. This can happen for
those who are "new" to the game and only started
playing when the BRCS popped onto the radar. I am not
talking about rules that you may "drop into" another
setting but the actual Birthright setting itself.

These restrictions are a core philosophy of the game
and were written by the setting creators and
"approved" by its creator Rich Baker. They are also
"reflected" in the novels and the compuer game, IIRC,
also follows these conventions."

BUT...he later says:

Quote: "I wonder if its from the computer game - a lot
of people confuse that as an "official" 2nd ed BR
source for rules."

He contradicts himself here...with implication in his
earlier post that the computer game reflects the
setting; while later saying it does not. So which is
it...seriously...no sarcasm intended. My comment was
simply about spells used by regents...had nothing to
do with rules to start with.

Now, to this post.

I said Clerics were an equal to wizards in combat. I
said nothing concerning their ability to deal damage.
I`m talking about (and even said) they had the ability
to COUNTER wizardly magic and then bash them in the
head.

I don`t go with the philosophy of "Nuke `em `til they
die!" that so many gamers think is at the core of
playing a spell caster. I`ll firmly stand by my
comment that clerics balance wizards...properly played
without the idea that they can just stand back and try
to deal damage like a wizard.

I also didn`t say that Wizardly magic was superior to
clerical magic...that would have been contradicting
myself. What I said was that elven mastery of true
magic, very much superior to the magic humans had at
their disposal, still didn`t avail them in war because
of the other over-powering factors humans had to their
advantage.


Anthony Edwards


--- Fizz <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:
> ------------ QUOTE ----------
> I completely disagree. Even in 2nd Edition, Clerics
> were easily equal to countering a wizards
> magic...and
> then smashing a wizard in the head with his mace.
> This of course if he was solely prepared to do
> battle
> against a wizard.
> -----------------------------
>
> I disagree. Clerical spells are largely supportive
> spells. Very few (compared to a wizard`s selection)
> are designed to dish out massive amounts of damage.
> Compare just about any wizard spell to a cleric
> spell with similar effects- the cleric spell will be
> a higher level or else have other conditions upon it
> that makes it less potent (allows a save, etc).
>
> 2nd Ed may not have been the bastion of balance that
> 3E is, but if clerics were as powerful magically as
> wizards AND they could fight in melee, it`d be
> horribly unbalanced. (And clerics had a much better
> XP progression, meaning they were less potent than
> wizards in the long run.)
>
> ------------ QUOTE ----------
> The reason the elves lost was because of Divine
> Magic...as stated in the release of the boxed set.
> Elves couldn`t heal their soldiers as the humans
> could. Elves also couldn`t compete with the
> prolific
> breeding rate of the humans.
> -----------------------------
>
> I agree with you here. In fact, the Atlas of
> Cerilia says the old gods favored the humans so much
> as to virtually cripple the elves.
>
> ------------ QUOTE ----------
> A solid example of superior technology (in this case
> magic) still being trumped by an inferior enemy
> exists
> all through our own history:
> -----------------------------
>
> In this case, i wouldn`t call either form of magic
> inferior to the other, just different. The big
> difference is that humans still had SOME forms of
> arcane magic (lesser magic). But the elves had NO
> divine magic. The net result of available magics
> favors the humans.
>
> But had the elves had Realm magic, i think they
> would have won. They could have inflicted
> casualties (in many ways, from direct damage to
> destroying crops, etc) on the humans across whole
> provinces, not just in battle, without any rebuttal
> from the humans.
>
>
> -Fizz

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[Fizz]

I said Clerics were an equal to wizards in combat. I
said nothing concerning their ability to deal damage.
I`m talking about (and even said) they had the ability
to COUNTER wizardly magic and then bash them in the
head.

Well, in the context of why the elves lost the war to the humans, damage-dealing spells would be the primary thing to cast. It's the most effective thing to do on a battlefield.


I don`t go with the philosophy of "Nuke `em `til they
die!" that so many gamers think is at the core of
playing a spell caster. I`ll firmly stand by my
comment that clerics balance wizards...properly played
without the idea that they can just stand back and try
to deal damage like a wizard.

Oh, i agree. But again, i was coming from the context of the war between the two races. Fireballs and lightning bolts are more effective for winning a battle than transmutations, illusions, and enchantments, etc. Thus, those would be the primary kinds of spells in this context. That's all i meant.


-Fizz

[irdeggman]

To save space and time I`m going to reply to two
topics here:

First, is the Computer game "official" material or
not? From irdeggman:

Quote: "It appears that you have extremely limited
knowledge of the setting itself. This can happen for
those who are "new" to the game and only started
playing when the BRCS popped onto the radar. I am not
talking about rules that you may "drop into" another
setting but the actual Birthright setting itself.

These restrictions are a core philosophy of the game
and were written by the setting creators and
"approved" by its creator Rich Baker. They are also
"reflected" in the novels and the compuer game, IIRC,
also follows these conventions."

BUT...he later says:

Quote: "I wonder if its from the computer game - a lot
of people confuse that as an "official" 2nd ed BR
source for rules."

He contradicts himself here...with implication in his
earlier post that the computer game reflects the
setting; while later saying it does not. So which is
it...seriously...no sarcasm intended. My comment was
simply about spells used by regents...had nothing to
do with rules to start with.

How is this a contradiction?

I was merely responding to this post:


The ruler of Tuarhievel has "Death Plague" as a realm
spell. Fhileraene also has the Realm Spell "Raze,"
which would be a "non-elven" spell I would think;
according to the ongoing logic against certain magic
being used by elves.

Isaelie, the ruler of the Sielwode, has "Summoning" as
a realm spell.

Realm spells may defy the common concept of what magic
elves will use, simply because it is so limited in the
number of spells available; but then Isaelie also has
Fireball...

Even if an Elf had Legion of the Dead...who is to say
that the dead that are summoned aren`t elven hero
soldiers now passed on from war...willing to return
and aid their people.

Showing that an elven monarch actually has Death
Plague as one of his realm spells shows me that they
are allowed such magic. Plagues are a natural thing;
all disease stems from nature, and the simple
classification system of magic in the D&D game is a
bit too rigid at any rate. Spells used to have
several "schools" from which they could derive their
power...so I still go with the logic that a spell can
have similar effects even if they are from different
schools.

You don`t have to be an elven necromancer to use
necromantic magic...many elven casters used horrible
magic of deadly effect against the human invaders
during the Great War.

Note: all my spells mentionings are from official
sources...2nd Edition AD&D.


Anthony Edwards

Which was using the computer game as a rules source. The same would apply to using thenovels as a rules source. Both the PC game and the novels reflect the feel of the setting, but not necessarily the rules. They (PC games and novels) have to approach things from different perspectives than the actual game (as in teh setting and rule books) do. The novels have to be very

The fact that you were using the fact the PC game gave a necromantic realm spell to an elf regent as a basis to ignore the 2nd ed rules from the Book of Magecraft which specifically states that elves shun necromantic magic is the reason for my posts.

Many people have come into BR from only playing the PC game and that tends to "color" their impression of what the setting is like.



I said Clerics were an equal to wizards in combat. I
said nothing concerning their ability to deal damage.
I`m talking about (and even said) they had the ability
to COUNTER wizardly magic and then bash them in the
head.

I don`t go with the philosophy of "Nuke `em `til they
die!" that so many gamers think is at the core of
playing a spell caster. I`ll firmly stand by my
comment that clerics balance wizards...properly played
without the idea that they can just stand back and try
to deal damage like a wizard.

I also didn`t say that Wizardly magic was superior to
clerical magic...that would have been contradicting
myself. What I said was that elven mastery of true
magic, very much superior to the magic humans had at
their disposal, still didn`t avail them in war because
of the other over-powering factors humans had to their
advantage.


Anthony Edwards

Actually this is what you said:


I always had trouble with this line of thought.
While, by the rules, wizards needed to be blooded to
cast Realm Spells...was there not an equivalent to
"High Magic" or "Epic" spells for the elves? The
sheer magical nature of their cities and
fortifications makes me think that they had some sort
of magic beyond levels 0-9 at their disposal.

For this reason, I again say that particularly
powerful magic was had by them that could have been
nearly equal, if not outright equal, to Realm Spells
prior to the destruction of the Gods.


Anthony Edwards


You had also stated that elves had the equivalent of epic and realm magic before Deismaar.

In 2nd ed there was no such thing as epic magic, but using 3.5 rules elves could have epic arcane magic (and have had it before Deismaar) but they would have followed the rules for epic casting - thus 21st level before they could access the spells.


In 2nd ed from a pure spellcasting standpoint wizards were more powerful the clerics. Wizards ahd access to 9th level spells while in the core rules clerics only had 7th level.

But the reason that the elves lost the war was because of the clerical magic. My read on this is since it was unknown to the elves and they couldn't compete with it. They had no "healing" magics available (in 2nd ed - in 3.5 they have limited healing magics).

Now in 3.5 they do through bard spells and ranger spells. In 2nd ed bards had no healing magic and neither did rangers (they were limited to plant and animal spheres).

[dalor]

But...elves don`t favor fireballs and lightning bolts.

I know...I`m dense...but now I`m really confused.


Anthony Edwards

--- Fizz <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:
> ------------ QUOTE ----------
> I said Clerics were an equal to wizards in combat.
> I
> said nothing concerning their ability to deal
> damage.
> I`m talking about (and even said) they had the
> ability
> to COUNTER wizardly magic and then bash them in the
> head.
> -----------------------------
>
> Well, in the context of why the elves lost the war
> to the humans, damage-dealing spells would be the
> primary thing to cast. It`s the most effective
> thing to do on a battlefield.
>
> ------------ QUOTE ----------
> I don`t go with the philosophy of "Nuke `em `til
> they
> die!" that so many gamers think is at the core of
> playing a spell caster. I`ll firmly stand by my
> comment that clerics balance wizards...properly
> played
> without the idea that they can just stand back and
> try to deal damage like a wizard.
> -----------------------------
>
> Oh, i agree. But again, i was coming from the
> context of the war between the two races. Fireballs
> and lightning bolts are more effective for winning a
> battle than transmutations, illusions, and
> enchantments, etc. Thus, those would be the primary
> kinds of spells in this context. That`s all i
> meant.
>
>
> -Fizz
>
>

>
> Birthright-l Archives:
> http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
> To unsubscribe, send email to
> LISTSERV@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
>
>


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[Fizz]

But...elves don`t favor fireballs and lightning bolts.
I know...I`m dense...but now I`m really confused.



Favoring does not mean they can't use them. It means they prefer not to use them. But if your realms are being destroyed, you'll use what you have to to fight back.

Besides, i mentioned those spells colloquially, not specifically. The point was that as far dealing out damage and hurting the enemy, wizard spells are better than cleric spells.

The Humans had: Lesser magic + Divine magic

The Elves had: True magic

True magic may be more powerful than lesser magic, but there are still a lot of 1st and 2nd level spells that can deal plenty of damage. Meanwhile but the elves didn't remotely have anything to match Divine magic.


-Fizz

[irdeggman]

Favoring does not mean they can't use them. It means they prefer not to use them. But if your realms are being destroyed, you'll use what you have to to fight back.

-Fizz

Check the quotes above on Sideath and Tuar Annwn.

IMO they reflect what can happen to an elven realm when they use such spells. The effect that the shunned and disfavored spells when used without a great deal of control.

IMO they serve as reminders to the elves of how careful they need to be when manipulating mebhaighl.

[dalor]

Oh my...I was asking a sincere question...but it has
come to this.

Very well.

Elves had "High Magic" in 1st and 2nd Edition. High
Magic...capable of great things...only hinted at; but
none-the-less it was mentioned.

You say it is for "setting"...very well; so is my
theory of elves having spells greater than 0-9; which
by the way is what we are dealing with NOW...we are
not playing 2nd edition on this topic are we? The two
games are entirely different...entirely.

As for the computer game: I only referenced it for
material not already covered in another source...there
is NOTHING to contradict the spells assigned to the
Elven Monarchs in that game...nothing. I did not
reference rules of any sort...only spells. Find me
another source that assigns them their Realm Spells,
and I`ll humbly admit that I was wrong on this.

After having read through many posts on Birthright.Net
I`ve come to the uncomfortable conclusion that you sir
are using your position to be rather condescending to
others. While I respect your knowledge of the
material, it in no manner imparts upon you the right
to be so very rough in your handling of others
thoughts and ideas.

I agree the computer game can easily send newcomers
down a different path of reasoning concerning
Birthright; but I disagree that it should be dismissed
by you. What about the game breaks any "rule" you
have a problem with at any rate?

Particularly bothersome is your use of a previous post
of mine having anything to do with the debate of
wizards versus clerics in combat. I was talking about
wizards versus clerics...nothing about realm spells or
higher magic in that post...period. Your inability to
remain detached from one topic to another that simply
co-exist upon the same topic thread is, I believe,
what brought your mistaken line of reasoning to the
fore.

As a last note of mention: we are dealing with 3.5
rules here...not 2nd Edition. The earlier
incarnations of this game can in no way be used to
dictate mechanics in 3.5; doing so is confusing at
best. The best that can be done is use the SETTING of
Birthright from 2nd Edition as the backdrop for
creating a 3.5 setting for the Birthright campaign.

This is why my reasoning is this: Sidhe had access to
higher powered spells than simply using 0-9 levels.
The very nature of their cities demand use of spells
that are being labeled here as "outlaw" in nearly all
respects as well.

An earlier thought I had considering the Sidhe is that
once they had many powerful wizards before the coming
of humans. In the bitter wars, many of these great
ones were lost, leaving lesser (younger?) Sidhelien
behind to carry on magical traditions that are now
beyond them (Isaelie is perhaps one of the most
powerful spellcasters in Anuire...and she is only just
above 10th level I believe!).

Crystalline Towers, that existed well before Realm
Spells, are only one thing that made me think of this.
How were such things created without magic that
defies conventional ideas on magic currently put forth
here on this discussion list? Such magic to me would
be simply "lost" to the current age of the world. It
doesn`t mean it never existed...just that it doesn`t
now.

So again, can any aspect of the Computer Game
"Birthright: the Gorgon`s Alliance" be accepted as
canon? If no...why not?


Anthony Edwards

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[Fizz]

Check the quotes above on Sideath and Tuar Annwn.

IMO they reflect what can happen to an elven realm when they use such spells. The effect that the shunned and disfavored spells when used without a great deal of control.

IMO they serve as reminders to the elves of how careful they need to be when manipulating mebhaighl.


I can't tell if you're agreeing with me or not. :)

What happened to Sideath and Tuar Annwn were both post-Deismaar, yes? Well, Sideath must have been because they were fighting the Gorgon. And both were a result of using Realm magic, yes?

Also, are the schools mentioned? I can see necromancy having a connection to the shadow world, but it's harder to draw that connection for evocation.

So, pre-Deismaar, would there have been a danger of elves' usage of shunned and disfavored schools ending up in the Shadow World? Or is it a result of Realm magic only?

I ask because that's the context of my replies- the use of magic to try to push back the humans before Deismaar.


-Fizz

[irdeggman]

I can't tell if you're agreeing with me or not. :)

Yes, especially insaying (as I have consistently by the way) that disfavored schools do not mean never used. I have not stated that elves would never use a disfavored school - only that they would rarely be used and I am trying to point to examples of things that could reflect their concern with using them.


What happened to Sideath and Tuar Annwn were both post-Deismaar, yes? Well, Sideath must have been because they were fighting the Gorgon. And both were a result of using Realm magic, yes?

Yes they were post Desimaar. But it is not stated as to whether or not they were the result of Realm Magic or not. Although IMO it can be deduced that they were indeed Realm Spells.


Also, are the schools mentioned? I can see necromancy having a connection to the shadow world, but it's harder to draw that connection for evocation.


On the surface, but if the approach that all arcane spells manipulate the mebhaighl of the land directly spells that have powerful manipulations of that force could have an adverse effect on the land itself.

As has been pointed out before Aebrynnis is a magic rich world with that magic (or life force, IMO) beign directly tapped by arcane magics.

For Sideath it states that Siebharrinn unleashed the horrors of the Shadow World on the armies of the Gorgon. This can be many many different kinds of things - Realm Magic, Battle Spells or regular magic used on the battle field (all were listed in 2nd ed as having battlefield effects) and since it was in reference to armies it is most likely that the spells were more battle level oriented ones.


So, pre-Deismaar, would there have been a danger of elves' usage of shunned and disfavored schools ending up in the Shadow World? Or is it a result of Realm magic only?

I ask because that's the context of my replies- the use of magic to try to push back the humans before Deismaar.


-Fizz

Now this is indeed a good question. IMO there is no clear cut answer.

IMO the tie of the elves and the Sie from which they came should hold part of the secret. The Sie could freely cast any spell (well non Realm ones at least) this to me reflects a strong tie to all aspects of the world - since pretty much the nature of mebhaighl is the world itself.

Now since the split both the seelie and elves are missing something but don't know what that is. The elves have a strong, supernatural tie to the land so everything they do has a greater consequence than do other beings. For example if a human scion cast a fireball he of course draws from the mebhaighl to shape and power his spell. When an elf casts the same spell they are drawing deeper magic since they are more closely one with the world so the effects are greater - and the elves can "feel it". Now this "feeling it" is just absolute basis in the rules only piecing things together and drawing color from some of the novels (Great Heart and the Shadow Stone).

Even pre-Deismaar it is not hard to see why elves would absolutely shun spells like fireball since they manifest fire and fire is anathma to the forest. Even if they did cast a fireball they would be shamed within themselves by doing so.

I think a comparison to using the force (mebhaighl) and light and dark side could be made (not that I am trying to make a BirthWars:D ) but going to the dark side seems a decent comparison for a start.

Another one could be from Dark Sun and the way that arcane magic draws fromthe life force of all things around it to get its power. Now Dark Sun would be the extreme but another reasonable comparison.

[irdeggman]

After having read through many posts on Birthright.Net
I`ve come to the uncomfortable conclusion that you sir
are using your position to be rather condescending to
others. While I respect your knowledge of the
material, it in no manner imparts upon you the right
to be so very rough in your handling of others
thoughts and ideas.

Anthony Edwards


For this I sincerely apologize.

[dalor]

And I apologize to you if I was rough in the manner to
which I brought this up.

Anthony Edwards

--- irdeggman <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:
> ------------ QUOTE ----------
> After having read through many posts on
> Birthright.Net
> I`ve come to the uncomfortable conclusion that you
> sir
> are using your position to be rather condescending
> to
> others. While I respect your knowledge of the
> material, it in no manner imparts upon you the right
> to be so very rough in your handling of others
> thoughts and ideas.
>
> -----------------------------
>
> For this I sincerely apologize.


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[gazza666]

At 06:53 PM 8/1/2006, gazza666 wrote:
Well, not to spill the worms too far from the can and engage in the
whole "nature spells for BR elves" debate again, but I think BR elves
should have access to many "druid" spells. Even if they haven`t
acquired them naturally, well before humans gained access to wizard
magic, then they would have created those spells on their own.

That aside, however, elves can still be bards and rangers in the 3e
update, can`t they? Speak with Plants is still "Level: Brd 4, Drd 3,
Rgr 2" right?

Which makes metallurgy a profession requiring relatively high level PC types. Logically, how many adventurers retire to become miners?

Now, you might argue that elves have a lot more PC-types/higher levels than humans. It would seem logical, considering their virtual immortality, and the fact that most elven units are veterans also supports such a position. If many of the elves in Birthright are supposed to be mid-high level, this is less hard to swallow.



I`d argue that the BR elven economy *is* fundamentally different from
that of any other BR race. We see it reflected in two major racial
characteristics in the BR materials--though the value of the GB or
the use of them isn`t particularly one of them.

Access to mithral and darkwood, you mean? I'm not sure how that makes the economy fundamentally different. Darkwood is obviously explained by being a rare type of tree; mithral might simply be some sort of elven alloy that they alone know how to make, or possibly it is a mineral that tends to be found in forested areas.

If I've missed your point here, my apologies.



However, the way their population expansion does not destroy source holding potential as does the expansion every other race is. Other races do things like dig mines that destroy the environment/damage sources. Elves simply
create their material or otherwise obtain it magically.

Or, alternatively, they plant more trees than they destroy by their mining, and they take good care of the metal they do mine, recycling it as needed, to minimise their future requirements. There are "green" methods of mining (at least relatively speaking) now; no reason to suppose that the Sidhelein haven't got some sort of equivalents of these.

Not, I hasten to add, that I'm not intrigued by the idea that they use magically created materials. I'm simply playing Devil's Advocate here in the sense that I don't see the evidence for this in the rules.



We also see in it in the fact that elves have very little interest in guild
holdings

That might be the case for NPC elven holdings; give any of those realms to a PC elf and see if it holds true.

Frankly, if elves didn't need money as much as others, then there would be support for your position. But an elven ruler that decided to ignore guild holdings would quickly find himself outclassed by a similar human regent without that restriction - armies of elves require no less upkeep than armies of humans, and elves are already giving up temple income. Source income for elves will obviously be higher than for non-elves, but consider: a forest has a maximum source potential of 7, or a level 3 virtual guild. Hook up a trade route and that will give you 3.5 GB per season. Compare to a level 7 temple that will generate 4 2/3 GB per season, and you can see that income wise, elves are not getting the best of this deal. True, Alchemy can generate GB, but that's not really a viable strategy long term, as the regency it consumes would make elves vulnerable to Contest Holding actions and the like.



I think one of the issues here is that folks are reading more
significance into the disfavored school issue than is it really
merits. All it really means is that they don`t "favor" those
spells.

Which is an attitude unlikely to be prevalent in an economy that was utterly dependent on them, do you not agree?

In our campaign, all of the magic restrictions in chapter 3 do not exist. But in the core rules, it is difficult to see how elves would continue to disfavour a school that they were using very frequently in their daily lives.



Retconning mithral into a vegetable for BR elves doesn`t strike me as
being any less drastic a solution than magically created metal, but
whatever works, I guess.

Retconning mithral involves a very minimal change; for the majority of purposes, it is merely a "fluff" detail (the only mechanical effects are that mithral weapons are presumably now immune to rust attacks, heat metal, and similar spells). It needn't change the cost, the availability, or the special properties.

Saying that elves magically create the metal they use means that you have just implied that there are a number of 9th level or higher wizards (or 10th level or higher sorcerers) who perform this service on at least a semi-regular basis. Therefore, any PC elven wizard who reaches 9th level and takes Wall of Iron and Fabricate as spells has essentially carte-blanche to abuse this till the cows come home, making themselves arbitrarily rich, unless you start trying to introduce supply and demand (another process fraught with peril, when one thinks through the implications of such things as item creation costs).

Alchemy is a substantially less efficient means of creating wealth than this would be. A 9th level caster creates a Wall of Iron that is 37.5 cubic feet in size, which works out to over 15000 lbs of iron. At the standard PH price, that's 1500gp; the caster could spend the first 14 days of a month creating walls, and the next 14 days Fabricating them into iron bars, for a net profit of 21000gp, or 10.5GB once "Financed". You'd need a source 11 to even hope to match that with an Alchemy spell, and even then you're down 44 Regency.

Sure, Alchemy is potentially available at 1st level, while this trick must wait till 9th level. But once it is allowed, no wizard anywhere (elven or otherwise) will ever cast Alchemy again. OK, you could say that flooding the market with iron will lower the price - that certainly would happen in the real world - but then all metal goods would become cheaper (probably a lot cheaper, because the mining and smelting processes are probably the most important cost of creating metal goods).

It would certainly be an interesting idea to explore, but I think you'd have to tread very lightly here. The above possibilities would occur instantly to any power gamer worth his or her salt. By comparison, saying that mithral is actually not metallic but rather a kind of "advanced darkwood" has an impact that is nowhere near as drastic.

[gazza666]

About "wizards vs clerics"...

It is true that Fireball is better than Flame Strike, and that Wail of the Banshee trumps Destruction. In terms of pure offensive might, wizards have better area effect spells and tend to do more damage than clerical equivalents.

However, at really high levels clerics have quite a few tricks up their sleeves. Miracle can duplicate spells without any XP cost (Wish cannot). Spells such as Dictum are just plain sick, especially used in mass combat (I suspect a lot of elven troops are 3rd level or less, meaning that a 40ft radius of them just die, no saving throw). And the most abusive spell in the game (aka Gate) is just as available to Clerics as it is to Wizards.

In any case, though, forget clerics. Let's look at druids. Powerful druids are a match for any wizard in pure offensive potential, even ignoring their ability to wildshape.

There are things that wizards can do that the divine casters cannot, and by no means are they underpowered, but the wizard edge in offensive power is not as great as is generally supposed. Of course, wizards get some great defensive and support spells as well - especially in the case of Realm Spells for Birthright.

[dalor]

In support of what is quoted below:

Lets not even get into the depth of a Cleric having
twice as many Hit Points as a Wizard...and the ability
to heal himself if he is hurt.

OH! Saving throws are much better too...with the
exception of Reflex saves which many wizards spells
work off of.

OH YEAH! Higher attack bonuses...so they smack
wizards around in melee.

AND!!! Have equal level spells now...0th to 9th; so
they can counterspell wizards.

SOMETHING WIZARDS DON`T HAVE: Power over Undead.

What are the wizards abilities now in 3.5: spells.
They have some few more feats; but nothing outstanding
at the levels we are talking about in Birthright.

SO...clerics trump wizards as far as war goes. Yeah,
Wizards can blow the high heavens out of massed
troops; but it does him little good if he is countered
by his more numerous clerical advesaries.

Clerical Realm spells are much more financialy
superior to anything Wizards have...blessed provinces
and blessed armies will allow even a smaller realm to
contend with the mightiest or most wealthy of enemy
nations. Not to mention the special temple units I
remember all to well: Knights of Haelyn and so forth.

Which brings me to a point I meant to make before:

Since Clerics Temple Holdings represent having actual
temples in different provinces staffed by other low
level clerics beholden to them...shouldn`t wizards
have wizard apprentices that study under them based
upon the level of their source holdings...or some
other factor? I understand they can make money off of
their sources...fine; but is there a set of rules
about apprentices?


Anthony Edwards

--- gazza666 <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:
> About "wizards vs clerics"...
>
> It is true that Fireball is better than Flame
> Strike, and that Wail of the Banshee trumps
> Destruction. In terms of pure offensive might,
> wizards have better area effect spells and tend to
> do more damage than clerical equivalents.
>
> However, at really high levels clerics have quite a
> few tricks up their sleeves. Miracle can duplicate
> spells without any XP cost (Wish cannot). Spells
> such as Dictum are just plain sick, especially used
> in mass combat (I suspect a lot of elven troops are
> 3rd level or less, meaning that a 40ft radius of
> them just die, no saving throw). And the most
> abusive spell in the game (aka Gate) is just as
> available to Clerics as it is to Wizards.
>
> In any case, though, forget clerics. Let`s look at
> druids. Powerful druids are a match for any wizard
> in pure offensive potential, even ignoring their
> ability to wildshape.
>
> There are things that wizards can do that the divine
> casters cannot, and by no means are they
> underpowered, but the wizard edge in offensive power
> is not as great as is generally supposed. Of course,
> wizards get some great defensive and support spells
> as well - especially in the case of Realm Spells for
> Birthright.

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[irdeggman]

In any case, though, forget clerics. Let's look at druids. Powerful druids are a match for any wizard in pure offensive potential, even ignoring their ability to wildshape.


Don't forget that all druids in Birthright are essentially priests of Erik and derive their powers from him.

That puts almost all druids as being from the Rjurik Highlands. There are some wondering individuals but very, very few organized to the point of having them be a "force".

And according to the timeline (from Rich Baker’s files):

The human – elf wars happened 2-4 centuries before Deismaar. Not inclusive of the Rjurik.

350 years before Deismaar the elves and humans (Rjurik) united in wars against the humanoids in the Rjuirk Highlands.

220 years before Deismaar the Rjurik/elf wars actually happened.

So pretty much, except for the Vos, the Rjurik were the last humans to engage in war with the elves. Not too surprising considering that both have similar philosophies about preserving the forests.

[irdeggman]

Which brings me to a point I meant to make before:

Since Clerics Temple Holdings represent having actual
temples in different provinces staffed by other low
level clerics beholden to them...shouldn`t wizards
have wizard apprentices that study under them based
upon the level of their source holdings...or some
other factor? I understand they can make money off of
their sources...fine; but is there a set of rules
about apprentices?


Anthony Edwards


The Book of Magecraft had an entire section on the study of magic which included the College of Sorcery (in the Imperial City) and apprenticeships.

This information is not included in the BRCS though. One reason was that the College of Sorcery belonged in the Atlas under Anuire and the other was purely for space considerations. The BRCS was already at roughly 200 pages (well 187 but you get the point). Adding apprenticeships would have opened the door to include much more detail on magic which would have led to something akin to another Book of Magecraft in length.

Now comparing souce holding to temple holdings and the temples having staffs and that sourcs should have apprentices is sort of a conflicting concept.

Temples get their RP from the amount of worshippers they have and sources get more power from undeveloped lands (i.e., fewer people). Really the two shouldn't be connected in terms of people.

Souce Holdings also don't require courts. If a source regent was maintaining a court it is very reasonable to have members of that court actually be apprentices. Now that would not assume they are scions only people studying and aiding the regent in his studies. Not everyone who studies magic is capable of being a wizard.

[irdeggman]

gazza666,

I know this information is "color" and "fluff" and are from sources that are not the BRCS but they give an insight as to why people are posting in regards to elven economies.

The Player’s Secrets of Tuarhievel describes

Cwmbheir (pg 8)
“The single road in Tuarhievel terminates here, in Tuaranreigh, a large sprawling town consisting of typical elven dwellings. Houses are nestled high in the ancient trees, with catwalks connecting them.”

And on pg 9 it describes the Thorn Throne. The living artifact that is the only recognized claim to the rulership of Tuarhievel.

Pg 28 describes the guilds.

“If a blind spot exists in elven control of Tuarhievel, it is economics. Perhaps it is a characteristic of the elves that they do not consider the acquisition of profit a valuable goal. The Sidhelien are not motivated to accumulate wealth or to get the best out of a transaction. Deals come and deals go; they are in no hurry to act upon them. This may explain Fhileraene’s seeming indifference to foreign guilds having control of part of Tuarhievel’s economy.”

[irdeggman]

SOMETHING WIZARDS DON`T HAVE: Power over Undead.


Anthony Edwards


Something clerics don't have - bonus metamagic feats. These allow wizard spells to actually be more powerful. Empowered, maximized, widened, etc. all contribute to making a spell really, really powerful.

[gazza666]

“If a blind spot exists in elven control of Tuarhievel, it is economics. Perhaps it is a characteristic of the elves that they do not consider the acquisition of profit a valuable goal. The Sidhelien are not motivated to accumulate wealth or to get the best out of a transaction. Deals come and deals go; they are in no hurry to act upon them. This may explain Fhileraene’s seeming indifference to foreign guilds having control of part of Tuarhievel’s economy.”
Sure, I'm not arguing that NPC elves might have this, but I've already made my powergaming tendencies known; if it isn't outright banned, PC elven regents will not ignore the income potential from guilds.

Frankly, my character has been considering starting up his own temples as well - he won't get any regency from them, but he'll get the income. But I do accept that this is a pretty un-elvish thing to do, so I haven't actually done that.

Yet, anyway. ;)

[gazza666]

Something clerics don't have - bonus metamagic feats. These allow wizard spells to actually be more powerful. Empowered, maximized, widened, etc. all contribute to making a spell really, really powerful.
Not really.

Metamagic feats are far more useful to sorcerers than wizards. A wizard can just research a spell instead. For example, rather than learn Empower Spell, he can just create a spell that does 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (max of 15d6) to everyone in a 20ft radius of a Long range (not exactly the same as an Empowered Fireball, but it's pretty close - and Cone of Cold does this amount of damage, serving as a proof of concept). Metamagic feats allow a sorcerer to greatly expand the variety of spells he can cast; a wizard doesn't have a restriction on the variety of spells he can cast.

They're not useless, of course. But item creation feats are a better use of those bonus feats than metamagic feats - and IMHO a more interesting avenue to take, as I personally find the creativity of creating unique, interesting magical items (or new spells, for that matter) to be a fairly rewarding experience. I dunno, I just love having characters that can cast spells with their own name in them, or having the party wield unique items that I've crafted. I suppose that's personal preference.

Which is not to diss sorcerers, by any means. I love sorcerers too; indeed, in my campaign I instituted a house rule whereby sorcerers can apply any number of metamagic feats to a spell as a move equivalent action. In practice, this means that most spells take a full round action to cast with metamagic (as they do in the standard rules), but it does mean that Quicken Spell is of some use to sorcerers. The other DMs in our group adopted this as well, and in our current campaign the DM is allowing a variant sorcerer rule from PH2 that allows them to ditch their familiars in exchange for being able to apply metamagic as a free action - which is a choice that the sorcerer/rogue (we're playing gestalts too) took without hesitation.

On a somewhat related note - what's the official stance on psionics in Cerilia? Do they exist at all, and if so are there equivalents to temples or sources that power them - or, to put it more succinctly, are there "Realm Powers" for such characters? If they don't exist, does that mean that things like mind flayers are verboten as well? (That would be a shame - mind flayers are my all time favourite monster).

For anyone who has had a chance to take a look at Magic of Incarnum, do you think that sort of magic might work in Cerilia? What about such Complete series classes as warlocks and hexblades?

[irdeggman]

Not really.

Metamagic feats are far more useful to sorcerers than wizards. A wizard can just research a spell instead. For example, rather than learn Empower Spell, he can just create a spell that does 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (max of 15d6) to everyone in a 20ft radius of a Long range (not exactly the same as an Empowered Fireball, but it's pretty close - and Cone of Cold does this amount of damage, serving as a proof of concept). Metamagic feats allow a sorcerer to greatly expand the variety of spells he can cast; a wizard doesn't have a restriction on the variety of spells he can cast.

They're not useless, of course. But item creation feats are a better use of those bonus feats than metamagic feats - and IMHO a more interesting avenue to take, as I personally find the creativity of creating unique, interesting magical items (or new spells, for that matter) to be a fairly rewarding experience. I dunno, I just love having characters that can cast spells with their own name in them, or having the party wield unique items that I've crafted. I suppose that's personal preference.

I specifically avoided item creation feats to keep with the low magic item nature of the setting in which case making magic items isn't as handy.




On a somewhat related note - what's the official stance on psionics in Cerilia? Do they exist at all, and if so are there equivalents to temples or sources that power them - or, to put it more succinctly, are there "Realm Powers" for such characters? If they don't exist, does that mean that things like mind flayers are verboten as well? (That would be a shame - mind flayers are my all time favourite monster).

The "offical" stance is that psionics are not part of the setting. The 2nd rule book had pretty much the same ruleing - although they "allowed" the DM add psionics in they strongly cautioned against it.

Adding psionics to the blood ability system just makes for a power gamers dream world - IMO.


For anyone who has had a chance to take a look at Magic of Incarnum, do you think that sort of magic might work in Cerilia? What about such Complete series classes as warlocks and hexblades?

Incarnum is an interesting way of handling magic that could work in a BR setting - although I would swap it for the standard magic system instead and just use its mechanics. Again, adding it in is a power gamers dream since it would add on to blood abilities.

Most non-standard "classes" could easily be fitted into a BR setting, including warlocks and hex blades.

[Michael Romes]

...
Access to mithral and darkwood, you mean? I'm not sure how that makes the economy fundamentally different. Darkwood is obviously explained by being a rare type of tree; mithral might simply be some sort of elven alloy that they alone know how to make, or possibly it is a mineral that tends to be found in forested areas.

Or, alternatively, they plant more trees than they destroy by their mining, and they take good care of the metal they do mine, recycling it as needed, to minimise their future requirements. There are "green" methods of mining (at least relatively speaking) now; no reason to suppose that the Sidhelein haven't got some sort of equivalents of these.

Not, I hasten to add, that I'm not intrigued by the idea that they use magically created materials. I'm simply playing Devil's Advocate here in the sense that I don't see the evidence for this in the rules.
...
Retconning mithral involves a very minimal change; for the majority of purposes, it is merely a "fluff" detail (the only mechanical effects are that mithral weapons are presumably now immune to rust attacks, heat metal, and similar spells). It needn't change the cost, the availability, or the special properties.

Saying that elves magically create the metal they use means that you have just implied that there are a number of 9th level or higher wizards (or 10th level or higher sorcerers) who perform this service on at least a semi-regular basis. Therefore, any PC elven wizard who reaches 9th level and takes Wall of Iron and Fabricate as spells has essentially carte-blanche to abuse this till the cows come home, making themselves arbitrarily rich, unless you start trying to introduce supply and demand (another process fraught with peril, when one thinks through the implications of such things as item creation costs).


Darkwood and Mithral are not the only materials that come to mind - if we look beyond the core material in the Arms&Equipment guide there are several "fitting" materials for sidhelien using a similar text to explain our problem with sidhelien mining and smelting enterprises: "...Many use unusual raw materials, because armorsmiths tend to work with whatever they have at hand. Elves and druids locked deep in primeval forests, for example, find refined metal a rare commodity. Surrounded by plants and magic, however some elven smiths craft wonders out of their everyday environment." Mentioned there are: Bark armour, Bondleaf Wrap, Moon-Ivy, Cord, Leather Scale, Bronzewood, Elven Darkleaf or Elven Leafweave.

[gazza666]

Darkwood and Mithral are not the only materials that come to mind - if we look beyond the core material in the Arms&Equipment guide there are several "fitting" materials for sidhelien using a similar text to explain our problem with sidhelien mining and smelting enterprises: "...Many use unusual raw materials, because armorsmiths tend to work with whatever they have at hand. Elves and druids locked deep in primeval forests, for example, find refined metal a rare commodity. Surrounded by plants and magic, however some elven smiths craft wonders out of their everyday environment." Mentioned there are: Bark armour, Bondleaf Wrap, Moon-Ivy, Cord, Leather Scale, Bronzewood, Elven Darkleaf or Elven Leafweave.
Oh, absolutely - if we want to say that elves don't actually use metal much, because they have vegetable or animal products that are the equivalent, I'm totally fine with that.

I'm not really even against the idea that they magically create the metals they use - I'm merely questioning whether such an assumption fits with what the core rules describe.

Actually, now that I come to think of it, you could even say that one of the reasons elves are "only" at Renaissance level technology is because of their lack of metal. There are numerous examples of this in the real world, where lack of access to appropriate materials held back the technological advances of otherwise highly intelligent cultures (at least according to Guns, Germs, and Steel - I'm not enough of a historian/anthropologist to know whether Jared Diamond's theories are considered plausible/mainstream/fruity).

After all, elves have been around for a lot longer than humans, yet the Anuireans are more advanced in some ways (according to the equipment list); this can be explained if you assume that elves don't have a lot of metal available (and perhaps don't farm as much - if they have to hunt and gather their food, that will hold them back as well) either because it's not in the areas they live, or they are philosophically opposed to doing what is necessary to make use of it.

[gazza666]

I specifically avoided item creation feats to keep with the low magic item nature of the setting in which case making magic items isn't as handy.

Yes, I wondered about that.

The BRCS is kind of wishy washy on this. It says that magic items are rare, that most magical items will be of at least 4000gp value, and similar... but on the other hand, it doesn't say whether or not this applies to consumable magic items (if it does, do wizards get something in exchange for the Scribe Scroll feat they'd normally have?) and there are variants where you can use Regency to count as the XP cost for creation, which (to the mad power gamers like me) would actually tend to encourage item creation.

I do appreciate the problem. In 2nd edition, magic items were a "nice to have"; you tended to get some as you advanced in level, but there were never really any hard rules for making them and there were no firm assumptions on how many/how powerful the magic items a character of level X would have. In 3rd edition, though, item creation has been "released to the masses", and gear value is now an assumed part of the power level of a character (to the extent that making magical items rarer significantly powers up spellcasters, who suffer much less from such restrictions than their non-spellcasting fighter and rogue allies).

I'm sure many of you play with few or no magical items just fine, but I wonder how difficult it is to balance encounters; the core rules aren't going to be a lot of help to you, as the MM challenge ratings all pretty much assume that a fighter of level X will have an AC of about Y and probably a to hit bonus of Z, and so forth.



The "offical" stance is that psionics are not part of the setting. The 2nd rule book had pretty much the same ruleing - although they "allowed" the DM add psionics in they strongly cautioned against it.

Yeah, fair enough - I figured that was probably the case. Besides, there's always Dark Sun if you want a setting that really embraces psionics.



Adding psionics to the blood ability system just makes for a power gamers dream world - IMO.

I find psionics to be a little on the underpowered side, actually. I do know some people that have basically ditched the sorcerer and use the psion as the equivalent - essentially using a psion as a sorcerer in all but name - because they prefer the point system to the spells-per-day system. But it's a lot harder to twink out psionics in 3rd edition than 2nd.



Incarnum is an interesting way of handling magic

Yeah, I thought so as well - just recently got the book, and I'm still mulling about how to introduce it into a new home brew game I'm building.



that could work in a BR setting - although I would swap it for the standard magic system instead and just use its mechanics.

Would it be high magic, or low magic? In other words - would you suggest it replaces magicians, or sorcerers/wizards? I'm inclined to think the former; I've not played with it at all, but my general gut feeling while reading it was that incarnists and totemists were probably less powerful than wizards and sorcerers, at least at high levels. (Note that I think in many ways that's a good thing - a decent magic system that doesn't leave the spellcasters so utterly on top at high levels is something D&D could really use).



Again, adding it in is a power gamers dream since it would add on to blood abilities.

I'm not disputing this (or your previous mention of it in regard to psionics), but I'm curious as to why you think psions/incarnists would get so much from blood abilities that presumably sorcerers and wizards don't already get. I'm not seeing any particular synergies here that the core classes can't use, but then again I may well be missing it.



Most non-standard "classes" could easily be fitted into a BR setting, including warlocks and hex blades.
As "low magicians", do you think? Our DM has asked us to create some organisations and NPCs for the campaign, and the idea of an order of hexblades or warlocks intrigues me - but I'm not sure I have the "authority" to create an organisation of scions.

[The Jew]

Max source level is 7 in HUMAN untouched forests. In elven lands it is 9, though the source levels seem to be randomly chosen in 2ed material. This allows for level 5 guilds which are very hard to contest (as the owner has a +9 from his source) and untouchable by occupation of the land. If a Highway runs through, as exists for 2 of Tuarhievels provinces then you can get 2 trade routes each generating 2.5 GB's from each source.

Sielwode has tremendous resources due to this arrangement.


Also an idea on how to replace Mithral and/or steel is to have elves make armour out of spider webs. Magic could be used to put it together and remove the stickiness, but the magic itself need not create it. Then the amount of items created could be limited by amount that can be harvested without disrupting the eco-system.

to gazza:
D&D is meant to be enjoyed and played however you wish, but most of your ideas are based solely upon powergaming without the slightest attempt at actually playing a Cerilian Elf. The rules should not be tailored to to prevent powergamers, that is up to the DM to decide. If he doesn't want elves to have temples, he can just add +10 to the DC to account for Elves inability to accept this new concept. If he doesn't mind it, then go ahead and do it if that is your cup of tea.

As for the idea that mining could be accomplished by mining an area and then growing more trees then were ignored, that completely ignores the eco-system, which is understood by humans today. To a Cerilian elf that would be equal to a Mass Murderer in America saying, well sure I killed 9 people, but I had 15 kids to make up for it. So what's the problem.

You remove trees and dig up the soil, and then no more trees grow back, the soil erodes, sliding into the nearby river and killing the aquatic life due to all the dirt. And given the level 9 sources, their forests should be truly pristine on all levels.

[The Jew]

Scionists are overpowered, not because they themselves are stronger than a sorcerer, but because 3ed isn't tailored to handle the class. It's outside of the box, and so the checks and balances which exist with magic, don't occur with scionics. For instance the spells are balanced to allow for those that can be used to attack, can also be countered by defensive magic, but very little of scionics can be countered by normal magic, and so the scionists have an unfair edge.

I personally like the 3ed scionics rules, I just don't think they fit well in a campaign that is not carefully tailored to absorb them. Definitely not something that could be haphazardly thrown in.

[irdeggman]

The BRCS is kind of wishy washy on this. It says that magic items are rare, that most magical items will be of at least 4000gp value, and similar... but on the other hand, it doesn't say whether or not this applies to consumable magic items (if it does, do wizards get something in exchange for the Scribe Scroll feat they'd normally have?) and there are variants where you can use Regency to count as the XP cost for creation, which (to the mad power gamers like me) would actually tend to encourage item creation.

Hmmm not really.

From Ch 8:

Variant – Low Magic Campaign

Most areas of Cerilia are low magic, that is the availability and occurrence of magical items is rarer than the norm. Thus, spellcasters and magic treasure are about twice as rare as normal and the sale of magical items is a rarity. Most common people see magic very rarely and spellcasters are revered or feared (particularly arcane spell casters). In the elven nations, the heart of the Khinasi city-states, few areas of Brechtür, the Imperial city of Anuire, and perhaps a few other locations in Cerilia, the availably of magical items approaches that of the typical campaign.
To reflect the relative rarity of magical items and magical paraphernalia in Cerilia, increase the market value by 100% (i.e., double the listed value). For example, a +1 sword in Cerilia, would have a market value of 4,000 gp, while one out of Dungeon Master's Guide would have a market value of 2,000 gp for the enhancement bonus. This increase in market value should affect all facets of creation, including an increased expenditure of experience points. This increase in market value is only applicable to the magical portion of the item. For example a +1 longsword would have a market value of 2,315 gp out of Dungeon Master's Guide while in Cerilia it would have a market value of 4,315 gp. Another example is the dagger of venom (8,302 gp out of the Dungeon Master's Guide) would have a market value of 16,604 gp in Cerilia.
As an additional variant, the market value of potions and scrolls could be allowed to remain the same as they are in the core books, to reflect their limited use.


Noting that recent polls have determined that this variant should actually be the standard and that the variant would be to have a "normal" magic item world. Increasing the market value increase the xp cost to create magic items and thus decreases the desire for wizards to create magic items since it costs them more xp to do.



I find psionics to be a little on the underpowered side, actually. I do know some people that have basically ditched the sorcerer and use the psion as the equivalent - essentially using a psion as a sorcerer in all but name - because they prefer the point system to the spells-per-day system. But it's a lot harder to twink out psionics in 3rd edition than 2nd.


I'm not disputing this (or your previous mention of it in regard to psionics), but I'm curious as to why you think psions/incarnists would get so much from blood abilities that presumably sorcerers and wizards don't already get. I'm not seeing any particular synergies here that the core classes can't use, but then again I may well be missing it.

Are you using the expanded psionics handbook or the 3.0 version?

Most people tend to have the view that psions are more powerful than wizards or sorcerers.

This has to do with the fact that psions have no ASF chance and can augment their powers as well as add energy types to them.

Then there are the psionic feats. Some are pretty overpowering in and of themselves.

Overchannel (talented) - makes you take no damage to increase manifestor level)

Some powers are pretty flat out way powerful:

Scism (able to split your mind to do more than one thing at a time)
Psychic Reformation - for an xp cost you can pretty much redo anything about your character.

[gazza666]

Max source level is 7 in HUMAN untouched forests.

Chapter 7 of the BRCS says that forests have 7, and only "untouched ancient forests" have level 9. Are elven forests supposed to all be the latter? The map that comes with the boxed set shows (eg) Erebannien populations as mostly 1/7, implying that elves generally only have a maximum of 7 in forests.

I'm not denying that there are better sources than that available, but the rules imply that those are pretty rare. Swamps offer a level 4 virtual guild for elves, which can of course get 2 trade routes (a total of 6 2/3 GB income per turn), which is better than a level 8 temple (though not by a lot); it is difficult to have a domain made up entirely of forest and swamp sources, however.

It is certainly true that sources are difficult to contest. In order to successfully make use of trade routes, though, it is often necessary to create sources of level 4 or better in non-elven lands (because a lot of elven territory will tend to be forests, and the terrain or race has to be different at each end of a trade route). And source regents in non-elven territory don't even have to be contested; the simple act of Rule Province can annhilate source holdings.



Sielwode has tremendous resources due to this arrangement.

Not tremendous. Maxxing out guilds and trade routes between guilds yields more cash than anything else (by design, it looks like; guild regents are supposed to be the rich ones). NPC elves can do whatever they like regarding not building guilds - but in the interim, we have bad guys invading the realm that we need an army to dispose of, and they seem unusually unwilling to muster without GB. ;)



D&D is meant to be enjoyed and played however you wish, but most of your ideas are based solely upon powergaming without the slightest attempt at actually playing a Cerilian Elf.

I would say that there is an element of truth in this, but only up to a point. There are elements of the setting that do not interest us (such as alignment restrictions - we don't use alignment anyway) and others that we ignore due to what we perceive as faulty mechanics (such as spell school restrictions). Those are house rules we have adopted because it suits our style of play better - and certainly our style of play caters to powergaming (for example, scions in this campaign are all gestalt characters ala Unearthed Arcana).

On the other hand we do not ignore everything. Our DM has chosen to set the game about a century in the future, largely because he prefers to use his own NPC regents rather than those that come with the boxed set and supplements (though the Gorgon and the Spider are still around). But we're sticking largely to monsters that are listed as being around in Cerilia; we're more or less using the War Card system as described (although we're a little bit concerned with the Scout training that elves have to have, and we're going to be altering that a bit); we're interacting with humans and other races in more or less setting-appropriate fashion (we're perhaps a little more accepting than we should be, but then again one of the PCs is a half elf).

In essence, we've taken what we like about the setting (and are using it), and have discarded what we don't particularly care for. I doubt we're alone in that; certainly some people might choose to keep things we've discarded and others would discard things we're keeping, but that's OK - nobody's going to be breaking down anyone's doors and forcing them to play the "right" way.



The rules should not be tailored to to prevent powergamers, that is up to the DM to decide. If he doesn't want elves to have temples, he can just add +10 to the DC to account for Elves inability to accept this new concept. If he doesn't mind it, then go ahead and do it if that is your cup of tea.

I was joking. I have no intention of having my elf create a temple; in fact, my character has been the one urging the guild and realm regent to knock down the human temple that has cropped up in one of our recently conquered provinces (to no avail so far; they seem to be more concerned with stopping the goblins to the north from their constant invasions - human loving wusses! ;)



As for the idea that mining could be accomplished by mining an area and then growing more trees then were ignored, that completely ignores the eco-system, which is understood by humans today.

Err, no, that's absolutely what it isn't doing. Not planting more trees is ignoring the ecosystem. You can argue that it's not completely compensating for the damage, if you like, but you can't argue that it's worse than planting no trees at all.



To a Cerilian elf that would be equal to a Mass Murderer in America saying, well sure I killed 9 people, but I had 15 kids to make up for it. So what's the problem.

Even if I accept your assertion that every single tree's life is that important to an elf - and I'm not sure that I do; I think they're more concerned with the forest as a whole than it's individual constituents (it would be difficult for them to exist at all without ever killing trees - surely they step on blades of grass now and then, if nothing else) - that is still not an appropriate analogy.

A better one would be, "Sure I killed 9 people, but if I hadn't done they would have died anyway, and so would these 13 others." Many people who seem very familiar with the setting have suggested that during the wars with humanity the elves were using things like Fireballs and Lightning Bolts, regretting the damage that they caused to the forest but terming it "acceptable losses" because they perceived the consequences of not taking such steps to be worse.

Since to some extent the elves are still at war with everyone - they seek a return to the time before humanity came and despoiled their continent, do they not? - I would say that they are still going to keep their eye on the big picture, and if killing a few trees will let them get at valuable minerals that will help them kill humans that are killing even more trees, they'll shed a tear but still swing the axe.

Of course that would not be the first resort; if there are friendly treants that can get the trees to just move out of the way, they'll obviously use that means instead.



You remove trees and dig up the soil, and then no more trees grow back, the soil erodes, sliding into the nearby river and killing the aquatic life due to all the dirt. And given the level 9 sources, their forests should be truly pristine on all levels.
Different methods of mining have different ecological impacts. It is possible to preserve and then restore the soil.

Of course, if elves had access to druidic magic they'd be a lot more adept at this sort of thing; rangers don't really get anything powerful enough to help. I suppose the odd 17th-20th level wizard or sorcerer might be prepared to blow 5000XP and use a Wish to duplicate appropriate druid spells.

Anyway, I'm not saying that elves definitely do mine. I'm just saying that the core rules don't really reflect the fairly radical economic differences that would result if they magically create everything - in effect, the default assumption, based on what we're seeing in the core rules, is that elves get their metal pretty much the same way everyone else does - by digging it out of the ground. Either they mine, they magical create metals, or they don't use very much metal (because the other option - they trade for it - is hard to justify, given elven diplomatic relations). I find the first option to be what the rules seem to imply, the second option an intriguing but fairly radical change, and the third option to be a happy medium that gives elves a unique flavour without any economy-shattering consequences.

Your mileage may vary.

[gazza666]

Scionists are overpowered, not because they themselves are stronger than a sorcerer, but because 3ed isn't tailored to handle the class. It's outside of the box, and so the checks and balances which exist with magic, don't occur with scionics. For instance the spells are balanced to allow for those that can be used to attack, can also be countered by defensive magic, but very little of scionics can be countered by normal magic, and so the scionists have an unfair edge.

The default rule is that magic and psionics are transparent; ie any defense against one is a defense against the other (spell resistance, dispel magic, antimagic, etc).

This is actually one of the most common complaints about psionics - that it isn't really "different" enough to be interesting.

[gazza666]

Noting that recent polls have determined that this variant should actually be the standard and that the variant would be to have a "normal" magic item world. Increasing the market value increase the xp cost to create magic items and thus decreases the desire for wizards to create magic items since it costs them more xp to do.

Ah, well, I wasn't aware that the variant was being considered for the standard rule. I still feel this disadvantages fighters and rogues more than wizards and clerics; spellcasters have relatively few items that boost their spellcasting abilities (the most common are Headband of Intellect/Periapt of Wisdom/Cloak of Charisma, although you can throw in Pearls of Power and Rings of Wizardry) and such items tend to be relatively cheap (+6 stat enhancer for 36000gp). Wizards and sorcerers, especially, can be constructed such that their AC is not overly important (by using Flying, Invisibility, and similar). Fighters and rogues are usually melee focussed, and melee focussed characters generally have a lot of magical gear to keep up (rings of protection, amulets of natural armour, magic armour and shields, magic weapons). Also, the CRs of mid-high level monsters pretty much that you have some decent saving throw bonuses.

Which is not by any means to suggest that low magic is not a good idea; merely to point out that D&D 3rd edition isn't really designed for it. DMs would have to be extra careful to make sure they didn't accidentally throw something too powerful at the PCs; the core rulebooks are of no help at all for such variants.



Are you using the expanded psionics handbook or the 3.0 version?

To be honest haven't played with psionics since 3.0, although we did use some of Bruce Cordell's changes while we doing so. It is entirely possible that my view is somewhat outdated.



This has to do with the fact that psions have no ASF chance and can augment their powers as well as add energy types to them.

Then there are the psionic feats. Some are pretty overpowering in and of themselves.

Fair enough, sounds like I need to take a closer look (I do actually own ExpPsi, but I confess I haven't actually read it - I'm a bit of a pack rat).



Scism (able to split your mind to do more than one thing at a time)
Psychic Reformation - for an xp cost you can pretty much redo anything about your character.
If you use all of Monte Cooke's spells and magic items from the Books of Eldritch Might, you'll find similar (and just as overpowering) things for wizards. Duplicate is the arcane equivalent of Schism (in some ways superior, actually). And then there's Arcanaform - don't lose spells as you cast them, you just take damage; at the time, we had houseruled Wish to be similar to Miracle, in that if you used it to duplicate a spell you don't incur the 5000XP cost, so the Arcanaform wizard would just occasionally use Wish to duplicate Heal and keep going... It could be argued that our Wish houserule was inadvisable, but it took a spell like Arcanaform to really abuse it. There are also magic armour enhancements that make it possible to eliminate ASF and the max Dex bonus. I often wonder whether or not Bruce and Monte are engaged in some sort of one-upmanship. ;)

Seriously, I love a lot of Monte and Bruce's stuff - just not all of it. (What? A power gamer saying that he doesn't like something powerful? Sure - power gamers don't like cheating - we're not munchkins; we want powerful characters, but we want it to be fair).

[dalor]

I mentioned in my post that wizards get bonus feats.
Yep, sure did.


Anthony Edwards

--- irdeggman <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:

> ------------ QUOTE ----------
> SOMETHING WIZARDS DON`T HAVE: Power over Undead.
>
>
> Anthony Edwards
>
> -----------------------------
>
>
>
> Something clerics don`t have - bonus metamagic
> feats. These allow wizard spells to actually be
> more powerful. Empowered, maximized, widened, etc.
> all contribute to making a spell really, really
> powerful.

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[dalor]

I disagree...I`m all for wizards using Meta-Magic!

Nothing like a quickened/maximized spell to ruin
someones day...especially when it is followed
immediately after by another spell.

Nothing like being all tied up and gagged, and still
blowing the bits out of the people who took you
prisoner by use of still spell or silent spell. Or
even better...walking down the streets, seeing an
enemy, giving them a cross look and they are enveloped
in a fireball or some other nasty spell without you
needed to do more than look at them (if you have
eschew material components as well!).

No...I`ll keep Meta-magic feats for my lower level
casters and worry about crafting of magic items later
(although making scrolls for backup is essential!).

Speaking of scribing scrolls...anyone ever found a
Realm Spell on a scroll? LOL...just kidding, trying to
stay on topic.


Anthony Edwards

--- gazza666 <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:

> ------------ QUOTE ----------
> Something clerics don`t have - bonus metamagic
> feats. These allow wizard spells to actually be
> more powerful. Empowered, maximized, widened, etc.
> all contribute to making a spell really, really
> powerful.
> -----------------------------
>
>
> Not really.
>
> Metamagic feats are far more useful to sorcerers
> than wizards. A wizard can just research a spell
> instead. For example, rather than learn Empower
> Spell, he can just create a spell that does 1d6
> points of fire damage per caster level (max of 15d6)
> to everyone in a 20ft radius of a Long range (not
> exactly the same as an Empowered Fireball, but it`s
> pretty close - and Cone of Cold does this amount of
> damage, serving as a proof of concept). Metamagic
> feats allow a sorcerer to greatly expand the variety
> of spells he can cast; a wizard doesn`t have a
> restriction on the variety of spells he can cast.
>
> They`re not useless, of course. But item creation
> feats are a better use of those bonus feats than
> metamagic feats - and IMHO a more interesting avenue
> to take, as I personally find the creativity of
> creating unique, interesting magical items (or new
> spells, for that matter) to be a fairly rewarding
> experience. I dunno, I just love having characters
> that can cast spells with their own name in them, or
> having the party wield unique items that I`ve
> crafted. I suppose that`s personal preference.
>
> Which is not to diss sorcerers, by any means. I love
> sorcerers too; indeed, in my campaign I instituted a
> house rule whereby sorcerers can apply any number of
> metamagic feats to a spell as a move equivalent
> action. In practice, this means that most spells
> take a full round action to cast with metamagic (as
> they do in the standard rules), but it does mean
> that Quicken Spell is of some use to sorcerers. The
> other DMs in our group adopted this as well, and in
> our current campaign the DM is allowing a variant
> sorcerer rule from PH2 that allows them to ditch
> their familiars in exchange for being able to apply
> metamagic as a free action - which is a choice that
> the sorcerer/rogue (we`re playing gestalts too) took
> without hesitation.
>
> On a somewhat related note - what`s the official
> stance on psionics in Cerilia? Do they exist at all,
> and if so are there equivalents to temples or
> sources that power them - or, to put it more
> succinctly, are there "Realm Powers" for such
> characters? If they don`t exist, does that mean that
> things like mind flayers are verboten as well? (That
> would be a shame - mind flayers are my all time
> favourite monster).
>
> For anyone who has had a chance to take a look at
> Magic of Incarnum, do you think that sort of magic
> might work in Cerilia? What about such Complete
> series classes as warlocks and hexblades?

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[dalor]

I would go with bound earth elementals just pulling
what they need out of the ground...but I don`t think
anyone would go for that idea from the elves eh? :-)

They obviously wouldn`t go with strip mining.

They could use the refuse of mining in other projects;
such as using the dirt and stone to build
with...unlike today when we just let it sit around
useless or use it for land fill or whatever. Since
the elves do have stone construction, it isn`t
unreasonable to assume they use their mines as sources
of worked stone as well (very touchy and tricky that
would be...and require a lot of patience for mining
that I don`t see coming from Chaotic individuals). I
suppose a low level spell could cut stone blocks as
the sole purpose of the spell...but again, this is
"destroying" nature according to some. But the
entrance would only have to be some twenty feet wide
and being extremely careful (maybe even using
Portals!) it wouldn`t even have effect on the
surrounding environment.

All this to ensure the surrounding environment isn`t
damaged at all...and only touching the top of the list
of things needed to protect nature.

I always wondered about this actually:

In the description given for Baruk-Azhik it says that
the dwarves there leave the above ground areas of
their kingdom to nature. Now, while I understand that
magic flows in even the deepest places and thus deep
mining and levels of civilization by the dwarves would
affect the magic level of their provinces; shouldn`t
there be some rule that allows their lands to have
higher sources than they have based on their
populations since the majority of life giving things
(trees, animals, etc.) are undisturbed?

This would make Dwarven Kingdoms and Elven Kingdoms
natural allies perhaps since dwarves care so little
for the use of trees for anything (the description of
Baruk-Azhik doesn`t even hint that they use timber in
their mining!). Perhaps the elves simply get their
metal from deep tunnels that have dwarven merchants
emerge from them.

I don`t know...but there really does need to be some
explanation for elven metal craft. Birthright is a
rare-magic (if not low magic) campaign world; so I
can`t myself go into the philosophy that they use
magic for mining in all honesty. Nor can I stand by
the idea that they use alternate materials instead of
metal since every elven crafted "metal" item I`ve ever
remembered from the game is made of actual metal.

Maybe elven Sources stay so strong simply because
elves don`t build right next to where the magic pools?
What thoughts can we have on why elven lands maintain
their sources...and can still have provinces with a
level 5 or 6 rating that implies a rather heavily
settled land?

As an aside, I am loath to change the name of this
post; but it is now nearly too far away from Realm
Spell Saving Throws to even relate. It is trending
more toward Sources instead of saves.


Anthony Edwards

--- gazza666 <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:
> ------------ QUOTE ----------
>
> As for the idea that mining could be accomplished by
> mining an area and then growing more trees then were
> ignored, that completely ignores the eco-system,
> which is understood by humans today.
>
> -----------------------------
>
>
> Err, no, that`s absolutely what it isn`t doing. Not
> planting more trees is ignoring the ecosystem. You
> can argue that it`s not completely compensating for
> the damage, if you like, but you can`t argue that
> it`s worse than planting no trees at all.
>
> ------------ QUOTE ----------
>
> You remove trees and dig up the soil, and then no
> more trees grow back, the soil erodes, sliding into
> the
<snipped>

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[dalor]

I am talking simply about apprentices...not colleges
of magic really. I understand sources rely on less
settled lands to be more powerful. All I`m implying
is that shouldn`t wizards have some sort of help in
managing their source holdings?

An apprentice that goes to check on things if
something is going on...

Or an apprentice to go to some Noble`s Court and say:
"My master is greatly displeased by the fact of your
continued logging of the lands forests. If you don`t
stop..."

These could be covered by Leadership or what have you
I suppose; but what I`m saying is: ALL other holdings
have other help in running them. Maybe Wizards could
have a few common men or women (not true wizards)
helping them. There has to be SOMEONE in a Wizards
tower that he just made with a Realm Spell not so long
ago...


Anthony Edwards

P.S.- there isn`t a product made for Birthright I
don`t have...and read often; although I must admit I
don`t reference them every single time I post or
commit them to memory like I do Scripture.

--- irdeggman <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:
>
> Now comparing souce holding to temple holdings and
> the temples having staffs and that sourcs should
> have apprentices is sort of a conflicting concept.
>
> Temples get their RP from the amount of worshippers
> they have and sources get more power from
> undeveloped lands (i.e., fewer people). Really the
> two shouldn`t be connected in terms of people.
>
> Souce Holdings also don`t require courts. If a
> source regent was maintaining a court it is very
> reasonable to have members of that court actually be
> apprentices. Now that would not assume they are
> scions only people studying and aiding the regent in
> his studies. Not everyone who studies magic is
> capable of being a wizard.

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[geeman]

At 02:00 PM 8/3/2006, you wrote:

>True magic may be more powerful than lesser magic, but there are
>still a lot of 1st and 2nd level spells that can deal plenty of
>damage. Meanwhile but the elves didn`t remotely have anything to
>match Divine magic.

Well, when it comes to outright destructive power wizard magic
overwhelms divine magic. That is, if you have two armies that are
more or less equally matched and you give one a wizard and the other
a cleric of equal XP level the wizard`s spells are more likely to be
an influence on the battle than will the cleric`s just be merit of
damage dealt, area of effect, etc.

When it comes to the statements regarding the power of human divine
magic over that of elven wizards I think we should bear in mind that
those statements mostly come from the Atlas which is one (human)
man`s opinion and fairly biased one at that. The comments made about
other human races of Cerilia must be taken with a grain of salt in
that text, let alone the comments regarding elves.

A more objective assessment of the conflict between humans and elves
will reveal that the more significant factor than type of magic in
the pre-Deismaar conflict is more than likely sheer population
numbers. The problem from the elven POV is not that the conflict was
two armies of roughly equal power each with a single representative
of their racial magic type. The problem is that the armies are
already mismatched in terms of size in favor of the humans and where
there is a single elven wizard there might be three, five or ten human clerics.

The setting has a tendency to ignore or only pay lip service to the
elven advantages. Due to their immortality and disease free biology
they would probably have significantly higher XP levels than would
their human equivalents, and their greater access to wizard magic
would combine with both those things to make for a high potential of
magic items in their population relative to human "invaders." Where
human companies of soldiers would be comprised of soldiers ranging
from 1st through maybe 5th or 7th level, elven armies would likely
start at 3rd or 4th level for the common soldiery because even the
common elven soldier is probably a couple centuries old and has
gained more experience by incident and accident over that time than
most humans gain in a lifetime. In addition the magic item
distribution among those NPCs would be more in-line with that of
other D&D campaign worlds, so the common soldier might have several
thousands of gp worth of equipment.

I`m of the opinion that those things would more than likely be enough
to turn the tide in favor of the elves if one were to play out the
history of Cerilia rather than just have it all written up as
backstory, but since the backstory itself is so strong (and
entertaining) I think BR fans (myself included) tend to let it slide
or adopt the existing rationales as more real that rhetoric.

Gary

[geeman]

At 06:07 AM 8/4/2006, you wrote:

>The "offical" stance is that psionics are not part of the
>setting. The 2nd rule book had pretty much the same ruleing -
>although they "allowed" the DM add psionics in they strongly
>cautioned against it.
>
>Adding psionics to the blood ability system just makes for a power
>gamers dream world - IMO.

Can`t argue with that. Plus, doesn`t it just _feel_ wrong for the
setting? It`s similar to the issue of gnomes, or other suggestions
that have come up of adding ninja, hoverboats or drow to the
setting. It`s just not right thematically. The setting is richer
for their exclusion than inclusion.

Gary

[irdeggman]

I am talking simply about apprentices...not colleges
of magic really. I understand sources rely on less
settled lands to be more powerful. All I`m implying
is that shouldn`t wizards have some sort of help in
managing their source holdings?

An apprentice that goes to check on things if
something is going on...

Or an apprentice to go to some Noble`s Court and say:
"My master is greatly displeased by the fact of your
continued logging of the lands forests. If you don`t
stop..."

These could be covered by Leadership or what have you
I suppose; but what I`m saying is: ALL other holdings
have other help in running them. Maybe Wizards could
have a few common men or women (not true wizards)
helping them. There has to be SOMEONE in a Wizards
tower that he just made with a Realm Spell not so long
ago...


Anthony Edwards

P.S.- there isn`t a product made for Birthright I
don`t have...and read often; although I must admit I
don`t reference them every single time I post or
commit them to memory like I do Scripture.


All other holding types have a maintenance cost built in for them and that includes the "staff" to maintain the holdings.

Using a source holding requires the regent's direct attention - he can't delegate this to anyone else.

Now if you want to have someone around to watch the manifestation (which no one other than the regent can actually find, unless they are a scion themselves) - that would be hirelings or the followers/cohorts associated with Leadership or it could be a Lt.

If a wizard builds a fortification I could easily see personel associated with it being wrapped up in the maintenance costs.

[geeman]

At 11:14 AM 8/4/2006, Anthony Edwards wrote:

>I am talking simply about apprentices...not colleges of magic
>really. I understand sources rely on less settled lands to be more
>powerful. All I`m implying is that shouldn`t wizards have some sort
>of help in managing their source holdings?

>An apprentice that goes to check on things if something is going on...
>
>Or an apprentice to go to some Noble`s Court and say: "My master is
>greatly displeased by the fact of your continued logging of the
>lands forests. If you don`t stop..."
>
> These could be covered by Leadership or what have you I suppose;
> but what I`m saying is: ALL other holdings have other help in
> running them. Maybe Wizards could have a few common men or women
> (not true wizards) helping them. There has to be SOMEONE in a
> Wizards tower that he just made with a Realm Spell not so long ago...

My opinion is that source holdings represent a control/influence over
the natural creatures of a province just as other holdings represent
control over some aspect of human population. That is, where
population level 5 equates to roughly 25,000 people and a holding(5)
represents influence over that aspect of the population`s legal,
economic or religious life, a source(5) in a province with a source
potential of 5 represents influence over a comparable number of
living creatures in that province of roughly equal HD or CR
distribution as human character levels. However, these creatures are
not humans. They are animals and/or "monsters" that reside in those
provinces whether a regent controls sources or not, just as a
population level can exist whether regents step in to create and rule
up holdings in that province.

Now, I bring this up because I think it follows that just as a law,
guild or temple holding have a physical manifestation (a facility
with a staff in it) so too do source holdings, but the manifestation
takes on the characteristics appropriate to a source. Where a temple
holding has shrines and such that are attended by priests a source
has natural settings in which reside creatures with a similar level
of power. When a temple might be staffed by a single 4th, two 3rd
and four 1st-2nd level clerics a source holding has a meadow in which
live a unicorn, a black bear and four 1-2HD creatures. In and around
that source holding live thousands of HD worth of animals and
monsters who recognize the regent who controls the source holding as
a figure of prominence in the area--and will probably not try to eat
him as a result. At least, not any more than a civilian will attempt
to defy a law holder, blaspheme in front of a temple holder or pull a
scam on a guild holder.

Furthermore, regents with source holdings should have a similar
relationship with those creatures as the temple regent does with his
"underlings." That is they are loyal, helpful and friendly, but not
particularly ready to die for the regent, nor even that hot on the
idea of sacrificing their well-being for him/er. They will not
adventure with the regent, though they will defend their respective
shrines, meadows, etc. as matter of occupation. They won`t be any
more or less likely than a real world person in a similar situation
would be to fight, kill or die for the place they reside in.

The problem being for the wizard, of course, that he may not be able
to communicate with his "staff" as another regent might, and their
responses might be difficult to predict as they are "wild"
animals/monsters, so if anything they are less directly useful than
would be human occupants of a law, guild or temple holding. They
might be creatures with intelligence and the ability to communicate,
but they are not any more likely to act as agents of the source
regent than their counterparts in other holdings, and his ability to
understand what a dryad has to say about recent events is colored by
the fact that she is, after all, a scantily dressed tree
spirit. Imagine trying to have a serious conversation with the
ditziest chick in the mall about serious matters by way of
comparison. Sometimes you`re better off talking to the tree than the
spirit....

Anyway, when it comes to actual apprentices for wizards I would
suggest they be handled more along the lines of vassals, LTs and/or
cohorts. They shouldn`t necessarily automatically accompany a source
holding any more directly than would the fighters that occupy the
manifestations of a law holding, the rogues in a guild holding or the
clerics of a temple holding.

Gary

[dalor]

While I agree with you on most of what you said, I
stick by my idea that the elves lost simply because
they were overwhelmed.

Even Elven magic would not be able to stand against a
tide of human clerics who can just as easily create
magic items as the elves can. If there are even 3
clerics to each wizard, the firepower of the humans is
at least equal to the elves as the elven magic could
be countered (i.e. Dispel Magic as a Counterspell) and
the clerics could easily match pace with elven magic
item creation.

Once war started between the elves and humans, the
elves had been in contact with their enemies for some
time. Humans are a devious lot in that they quickly
learn whatever is put before them; taking the best and
leaving the rest.

Human Clerics, knowing that their race was
over-matched in magical might (and I don`t believe
they were) would have began to improve their lot.
Clerics can make magical weapons and armor just as
easily as a wizard...and if there are lots more
clerics I see it as likely there were just as many
magical items among the humans as the elves...but
perhaps not so many powerful items.

Humans are driven and the Anuireans in particular were
a military lot given that their divine patron was the
King of the Gods as it were. Their armies would have
drilled quite often and training would have been
nearly constant for their standing military...however
small the core was before levies and militia are
considered.

Elves on the other hand rarely if ever work together
so well as humans militarily. I don`t see them
drilling every day...or even once a week. Yes, they
are much longer lived, but they waste away their days
in revelry and splendor...little concerned about the
daily need to drill together and make a truly
organized military with plans for supply trains, siege
equipment, tactical and strategic briefings and etc.
So I don`t think their soldiers were any more skilled
than the individual human professional soldier. More
than human militia or some such yes...more than a
hardened war veteran used to at least yearly bloody
conflict having been left behind in Aduria no. Since
this man would have been dead by the time conflict
arose between Anuireans and Sidhelien then his great
grandson was most likely the inheritor of a military
tradition...readying for war against the very forces
his people once fled and even battle against his
kinfolk for the finest living space in their new home
of Cerilia.

Elves lost because they couldn`t stand against
humanity`s tide of aggression. To the Elves, humans
were worse than a goblin horde because the humans had
the numbers of goblins with organization, adaptable
culture and daring to boot.


Anthony Edwards

--- Gary <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET> wrote:
>
> Well, when it comes to outright destructive power
> wizard magic
> overwhelms divine magic. That is, if you have two
> armies that are
> more or less equally matched and you give one a
> wizard and the other
> a cleric of equal XP level the wizard`s spells are
> more likely to be
> an influence on the battle than will the cleric`s
> just be merit of
> damage dealt, area of effect, etc.
>
> When it comes to the statements regarding the power
> of human divine
> magic over that of elven wizards I think we should
> bear in mind that
> those statements mostly come from the Atlas which is
> one (human)
> man`s opinion and fairly biased one at that. The
> comments made about
> other human races of Cerilia must be taken with a
> grain of salt in
> that text, let alone the comments regarding elves.
>
> A more objective assessment of the conflict between
> humans and elves
> will reveal that the more significant factor than
> type of magic in
> the pre-Deismaar conflict is more than likely sheer
> population
> numbers. The problem from the elven POV is not that
> the conflict was
> two armies of roughly equal power each with a single
> representative
> of their racial magic type. The problem is that the
> armies are
> already mismatched in terms of size in favor of the
> humans and where
> there is a single elven wizard there might be three,
> five or ten human clerics.
>
> The setting has a tendency to ignore or only pay lip
> service to the
> elven advantages. Due to their immortality and
> disease free biology
> they would probably have significantly higher XP
> levels than would
> their human equivalents, and their greater access to
> wizard magic
> would combine with both those things to make for a
> high potential of
> magic items in their population relative to human
> "invaders." Where
> human companies of soldiers would be comprised of
> soldiers ranging
> from 1st through maybe 5th or 7th level, elven
> armies would likely
> start at 3rd or 4th level for the common soldiery
> because even the
> common elven soldier is probably a couple centuries
> old and has
> gained more experience by incident and accident over
> that time than
> most humans gain in a lifetime. In addition the
> magic item
> distribution among those NPCs would be more in-line
> with that of
> other D&D campaign worlds, so the common soldier
> might have several
> thousands of gp worth of equipment.
>
> I`m of the opinion that those things would more than
> likely be enough
> to turn the tide in favor of the elves if one were
> to play out the
> history of Cerilia rather than just have it all
> written up as
> backstory, but since the backstory itself is so
> strong (and
> entertaining) I think BR fans (myself included) tend
> to let it slide
> or adopt the existing rationales as more real that
> rhetoric.
>
> Gary

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[dalor]

Solid line of reasoning...

I just feel awkward thinking of a wizard as dealing so
much with animals. Elven wizards yes and maybe Rjurik
or even Khinasi.

I just can`t see my specialist Evoker Anuirean War
Wizard honestly caring a great deal about animals,
other than making sure someone doesn`t destroy his
ability to deal damage to the enemy with Mass
Destruction during war...and the Gods help any army
that decides to enter his "personal" province and lay
siege to his tower! I don`t think the animals would
be any safer from his destructive magics than the
enemy army!

It is nearly a paradox that Realm Magic allows such
destruction...but relies solely on undespoiled lands
for the greatest magics.


Anthony Edwards


--- Gary <geeman@SOFTHOME.NET> wrote:
>
> My opinion is that source holdings represent a
> control/influence over
> the natural creatures of a province just as other
> holdings represent
> control over some aspect of human population. That
> is, where
> population level 5 equates to roughly 25,000 people
> and a holding(5)
> represents influence over that aspect of the
> population`s legal,
> economic or religious life, a source(5) in a
> province with a source
> potential of 5 represents influence over a
> comparable number of
> living creatures in that province of roughly equal
> HD or CR
> distribution as human character levels. However,
> these creatures are
> not humans. They are animals and/or "monsters" that
> reside in those
> provinces whether a regent controls sources or not,
> just as a
> population level can exist whether regents step in
> to create and rule
> up holdings in that province.
>
> Now, I bring this up because I think it follows that
> just as a law,
> guild or temple holding have a physical
> manifestation (a facility
> with a staff in it) so too do source holdings, but
> the manifestation
> takes on the characteristics appropriate to a
> source. Where a temple
> holding has shrines and such that are attended by
> priests a source
> has natural settings in which reside creatures with
> a similar level
> of power. When a temple might be staffed by a
> single 4th, two 3rd
> and four 1st-2nd level clerics a source holding has
> a meadow in which
> live a unicorn, a black bear and four 1-2HD
> creatures. In and around
> that source holding live thousands of HD worth of
> animals and
> monsters who recognize the regent who controls the
> source holding as
> a figure of prominence in the area--and will
> probably not try to eat
> him as a result. At least, not any more than a
> civilian will attempt
> to defy a law holder, blaspheme in front of a temple
> holder or pull a
> scam on a guild holder.
>
> Furthermore, regents with source holdings should
> have a similar
> relationship with those creatures as the temple
> regent does with his
> "underlings." That is they are loyal, helpful and
> friendly, but not
> particularly ready to die for the regent, nor even
> that hot on the
> idea of sacrificing their well-being for him/er.
> They will not
> adventure with the regent, though they will defend
> their respective
> shrines, meadows, etc. as matter of occupation.
> They won`t be any
> more or less likely than a real world person in a
> similar situation
> would be to fight, kill or die for the place they
> reside in.
>
> The problem being for the wizard, of course, that he
> may not be able
> to communicate with his "staff" as another regent
> might, and their
> responses might be difficult to predict as they are
> "wild"
> animals/monsters, so if anything they are less
> directly useful than
> would be human occupants of a law, guild or temple
> holding. They
> might be creatures with intelligence and the ability
> to communicate,
> but they are not any more likely to act as agents of
> the source
> regent than their counterparts in other holdings,
> and his ability to
> understand what a dryad has to say about recent
> events is colored by
> the fact that she is, after all, a scantily dressed
> tree
> spirit. Imagine trying to have a serious
> conversation with the
> ditziest chick in the mall about serious matters by
> way of
> comparison. Sometimes you`re better off talking to
> the tree than the
> spirit....
>
> Anyway, when it comes to actual apprentices for
> wizards I would
> suggest they be handled more along the lines of
> vassals, LTs and/or
> cohorts. They shouldn`t necessarily automatically
> accompany a source
> holding any more directly than would the fighters
> that occupy the
> manifestations of a law holding, the rogues in a
> guild holding or the
> clerics of a temple holding.
>
> Gary

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[irdeggman]

Solid line of reasoning...

I just feel awkward thinking of a wizard as dealing so
much with animals. Elven wizards yes and maybe Rjurik
or even Khinasi.

I just can`t see my specialist Evoker Anuirean War
Wizard honestly caring a great deal about animals,
other than making sure someone doesn`t destroy his
ability to deal damage to the enemy with Mass
Destruction during war...and the Gods help any army
that decides to enter his "personal" province and lay
siege to his tower! I don`t think the animals would
be any safer from his destructive magics than the
enemy army!

It is nearly a paradox that Realm Magic allows such
destruction...but relies solely on undespoiled lands
for the greatest magics.


Anthony Edwards




Ahh but the "historical" strength of a wizard's tower (which is not a manifestation by the way since it is not natural at all) was in its isolation adn then in its "magical protections" (e.g., wards and the like). Their strength was not in the number of people they had to stand gaurd over the tower.

[irdeggman]

While I agree with you on most of what you said, I
stick by my idea that the elves lost simply because
they were overwhelmed.

Even Elven magic would not be able to stand against a
tide of human clerics who can just as easily create
magic items as the elves can. If there are even 3
clerics to each wizard, the firepower of the humans is
at least equal to the elves as the elven magic could
be countered (i.e. Dispel Magic as a Counterspell) and
the clerics could easily match pace with elven magic
item creation.

Actually clerics can't make magic items as easily as wizards can. Wizards get bonus feats that they can use to accomplish this while clerics do not.

But what I see you saying is that humans won by determination and numbers and also the fact that they had clerics to counter the elven wizards.

This still works with canon by the way - the difference being clerical magic. Since if one side had wizards (even if they were outnumbered) and the other had none then the side with the wizards is more powerful.

If the the other side gets clerics then that makes the difference since the clerics can counter the wizardly magic as well as provide for healing.



Elves on the other hand rarely if ever work together
so well as humans militarily. I don`t see them
drilling every day...or even once a week. Yes, they
are much longer lived, but they waste away their days
in revelry and splendor...little concerned about the
daily need to drill together and make a truly
organized military with plans for supply trains, siege
equipment, tactical and strategic briefings and etc.
So I don`t think their soldiers were any more skilled
than the individual human professional soldier. More
than human militia or some such yes...more than a
hardened war veteran used to at least yearly bloody
conflict having been left behind in Aduria no. Since
this man would have been dead by the time conflict
arose between Anuireans and Sidhelien then his great
grandson was most likely the inheritor of a military
tradition...readying for war against the very forces
his people once fled and even battle against his
kinfolk for the finest living space in their new home
of Cerilia.

Check out the Player's Secrets of Tuarhievel to see what it says about elves drilling together. Then there was of course the gheallie Sidhe. Basically the elven units are better trained and use hit and run tactics to best use the terrain to their advantage. Remember also that prior to the human wars the elves had been at war with every race in Cerilia - the goblin wars, the dwarf wars, etc.

[gazza666]

I disagree...I`m all for wizards using Meta-Magic!

Nothing like a quickened/maximized spell to ruin someones day...especially when it is followed immediately after by another spell.

Quicken is +4, Maximise is +3, so that's a quickened, maximised 2nd level spell you're talking about casting as one of your 9th level spells for the day. Not exactly terrifying. ;)



Nothing like being all tied up and gagged, and still plowing the bits out of the people who took you prisoner by use of still spell or silent spell. Or even better...walking down the streets, seeing an enemy, giving them a cross look and they are enveloped in a fireball or some other nasty spell without you needed to do more than look at them (if you have eschew material components as well!).

In the interim, you've blown spell slots on these preparations that may never need them. If you go all day without managing to get tied up and gagged, then your Silent Teleport (eg) is just consuming a 6th level spell slot that could be better used (Chain Lightning or Disintegrate come to mind).

Metamagic feats fall into two basic categories. There are those that create more powerful versions of spells (Extend Spell, Empower Spell, Maximise Spell, Twin Spell, Repeat Spell, Energy Substitution, Quicken Spell, and so forth) and those that create more flexible versions of spells (Still Spell, Silent Spell, etc). In the case of the latter, they are situational - you'd really prefer not to have to guess that you'll need these ahead of time. Say, if you could use them spontaneously. If only there were an arcane class that could do that... ;) I recommend Metamagic Rods for these sorts of situations - they are very cost efficient.

That leaves the "power up" feats. The thing with these is that there is absolutely nothing stopping a wizard from researching variant spells that have these "built in". Want a fireball that you can cast as a swift action? Research a 7th level spell "Sudden Fireball" that has the desired traits. It's very difficult to argue that such a spell is overpowered, since the fact that you can duplicate it with metamagic feats serves as a strong counterargument. As an added bonus, such a spell comes with a higher save DC (which you can cheerfully waive if the DM thinks you're being abusive - just say that Sudden Fireball grants a +4 to the Reflex saves of the targets). The point is not to show you some powergaming loophole; this is not abusive, and wizards that want to have a variety of utility spells are encouraged to create them.

Sorcerers have a limited number of spells that they can know; if they know Fireball and also Empower and Maximise Spell, that's like knowing an extra 3 versions of Fireball (Empowered Fireball, Maximised Fireball, and Empowered Maximised Fireball) which possibly frees up a 5th, 6th, and 8th level spell slot for something other than a damaging spell. But wizards have no limits on spells known; a clever wizard with time to engage in spell research should never need to bother with most metamagic feats.

If you're intending to go into Epic levels, this argument loses force, since with Improved Metamagic you can get spells more cheaply with metamagic. You can always go back and get metamagic feats if you find your DM is intending to go to level 21 and up.

Of course, much depends on the campaign. If you're in a game with little downtime, then it is likely you don't have enough time for either item creation or spell research - in which case you might as well grab all the metamagic feats you can get.

[gazza666]

Actually clerics can't make magic items as easily as wizards can. Wizards get bonus feats that they can use to accomplish this while clerics do not.

In addition, more magical items require arcane magic to create than divine magic, though I suppose for a 17th level cleric Miracle can work ... well, miracles. ;)

[gazza666]

The setting has a tendency to ignore or only pay lip service to the
elven advantages. Due to their immortality and disease free biology
they would probably have significantly higher XP levels than would
their human equivalents,

Yeah, well...

Historically, D&D has always had to hand wave about this. Let's consider the Forgotten Realms, with everyone's favourite archmage Elminster. This guy is about 500 years old, and he's managed to get to - what, about level 29 or 30? I'll be generous and call it 60, including all his cheaty templates and so forth.

Boy, is this guy a slacker.

3rd edition rules for XP assume that it requires the same number of adventures to go from level 1 to 2 as it does to go from level 19 to 20. A fairly glacial rate of advancement in most campaigns would be 1 level per year of game time, and ... well, you can do the math.

Agelessness just isn't that exciting a power for a PC, just as the druid Timeless Body ability is more "cute" than useful. It's extremely difficult to extend your lifespan from levels 1 through 20 (becoming some sort of undead is probably your best bet - I recommend a vampire rather than a lich, if you can figure a way to avoid servitude to the leech that sired you - arranging for them to be killed works). As soon as the level odometer rolls around to 21, it's extremely easy to extend your lifespan to any desired level (through epic spells or epic feats - and frankly, if you were to create an epic prestige class that granted you an extra decade of life per level, few would call it overpowered).

Not that this really matters. The majority of the population - human or elven - are assumed to be "slackers". They don't encounter challenges on a daily or perhaps even yearly basis, so they are unlikely to get to more than about level 2 or 3. For an NPC craftsman, for example, I usually assume that they're a level 1 expert as an apprentice, level 2 as a journeyman, and level 3-5 as a master craftsman; humans can manage that in about 10 years or so. That's about as far as they ever go; you can reasonably assume that elves and dwarves (or other long lived races) don't get much, if any, higher than that.

"But surely they can still learn something!" Well, maybe. If you were going to live forever, would you use your immortality to learn everything you could as fast as you could, or would you decide to study for that exam next year instead? D&D doesn't model this, but it is important to remember that in the real world skills that are not used frequently atrophy. Perhaps an elven swordsmith is not any more skilled than his human equivalent, but he knows how to make hundreds of times the number of swords (swords with the pointy bit curved, swords with two pointy bits, swords with handles half way up the blade, swords that can catch other pointy things and twist, and so forth). His clients expect him to know how to forge anything that they come to him with - some of those designs are centuries old, and somewhat of a family tradition. He has so much to remember that he doesn't really have a lot of time for improvement.

We should be grateful that the elves aren't lawful. A lawful race with centuries to play with could implement an idea I had a while back as a thought experiment I will dub "Gazza's Self Improvment Program".

Here's how that works:

Set up a breeding program for bats and toads. You'll need thousands of them, but they don't eat very much. Toads are probably easiest to keep control of.
As soon as your new adults hit level 1 (in whatever class they've chosen), bring them to the Toad Pond. Set up an open area (but reasonably confined) and let loose 1080 toads to viciously attack the new level 1 character.
Level 1 character must squish all 1080 (1078.1, actually, but close enough) toads. He can take as long as needs to do this - if he kills only 1 every minute (plenty of rest time), he'll be done after 18 hours and can have a nice rest.

The new graduate is now level 9. Risk factor zero; toads have no effective attacks, but they count as CR 1/10. Unfortunately he gains no more XP from killing such weak creatures, but if desired you can extend the program by having someone animate lots of Medium sized objects for him to fight, and then move on to Large objects, and so forth; these later stages do entail some risk, but it isn't particularly dangerous.

Before you all crucify me, this is merely a silly demonstration of how D&D's mechanics are catered to PCs rather than NPCs. I've never attempted to have any of my characters ever actually do something like this, honestly.

Well, there was that one time... ;)

[irdeggman]

I just set up a new thread to cover elves since that is where this thread has been going for some time now.

[dalor]

True.

But what I was addressing really was the fact that
such a wizard as I described would have little do do
with, and even little caring for, the animals and
other beings within the area of his source holding.


Anthony Edwards

--- irdeggman <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:
>
> Ahh but the "historical" strength of a wizard`s
> tower (which is not a manifestation by the way since
> it is not natural at all) was in its isolation adn
> then in its "magical protections" (e.g., wards and
> the like). Their strength was not in the number of
> people they had to stand gaurd over the tower.

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[dalor]

Got me there...should have said Quickened OR
Maximized.

My favorite tactic is using a Quickened Magic Missle
followed immediately by a Maximized Magic Missle or
Fireball...depending on the situation.

Other comments in line***

--- gazza666 <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:
>
>
> Quicken is +4, Maximise is +3, so that`s a
> quickened, maximised 2nd level spell you`re talking
> about casting as one of your 9th level spells for
> the day. Not exactly terrifying. ;)
>
<SNIP>
>
> In the interim, you`ve blown spell slots on these
> preparations that may never need them. If you go all
> day without managing to get tied up and gagged, then
> your Silent Teleport (eg) is just consuming a 6th
> level spell slot that could be better used (Chain
> Lightning or Disintegrate come to mind).

***All day and it being wasted is better than all day
tied up a prisoner. I`m not a power gamer, and much
prefer the survival of my wizard over his ability to
outright destroy everything in his path.***

>
> Metamagic feats fall into two basic categories.
> There are those that create more powerful versions
> of spells (Extend Spell, Empower Spell, Maximise
> Spell, Twin Spell, Repeat Spell, Energy
> Substitution, Quicken Spell, and so forth) and those
> that create more flexible versions of spells (Still
> Spell, Silent Spell, etc). In the case of the
> latter, they are situational - you`d really prefer
> not to have to guess that you`ll need these ahead of
> time. Say, if you could use them spontaneously. If
> only there were an arcane class that could do
> that... ;) I recommend Metamagic Rods for these
> sorts of situations - they are very cost efficient.

***In a low magic or rare magic campaign, every wizard
won`t have access to these items; although personally
I think they are great and use them whenever I can get
them.***

***The rest of what you say I have no qualms with. I
only assert that wizards SHOULD make use of the
various feats. I know my wizard with his wand of
Maximized Magic Missles from a 9th level caster will
knock the snot out of most Sorcerers...or even a
higher level character with a Maximized Fireball Wand.
But just my opinion.***

>
> That leaves the "power up" feats. The thing with
> these is that there is absolutely nothing stopping a
> wizard from researching variant spells that have
> these "built in". Want a fireball that you can cast
> as a swift action? Research a 7th level spell
> "Sudden Fireball" that has the desired traits. It`s

<SNIP>

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[dalor]

Clerics make magic items just as easily as wizards do.
The rules are no different. If you mean it costs
them a special slot; well, that is very true. But we
are talking about a more numerous number of clerics
and so they will invariably have more numbers who are
non-combatant (perhaps elderly retired monks...) that
can devote their attention to making of magic items;
while those Elven Wizards will be needed on the
battle-field because they are still considered "young"
so to speak being from an ageless society.

Very hard for an Elven wizard to make magic items when
he is at war...much easier for the Cleric to continue
manufacture of such things when that is his only job.

Good point about the elves being at war for most of
their history...but I was under the impression from my
reading that most of these "great wars" were some time
in the past and that by the time humans had arrived,
the elves and dwarves, at least, were on good terms.

BUT...it does bring to light that the elves had fought
a very organized race prior to humans. So why they
continued to favor skirmishing and hit and run I can`t
say. Just as the Celts found when they fought the
Romans...such tactics rarely work.

I refuse to believe that the elven units were better
trained. Again, the Elven armies were obviously more
skilled than conscripts and levies; but the core human
armies could not have been at a disadvantage to their
enemy...numbers alone have NEVER won a war...never.

As an example: Caesar beseiged Vercingetorix at
Alesia. Caesar had about 50,000 men (somewhat less it
is thought) and his enemy had roughly 70,000 men who
were without many cavalry and so became trapped. A
truly MASSIVE relief force of Gauls soon after
arrived; numbering nearly a quarter of a million in
manpower. The 350,000 Gauls could still not defeat
Caesar`s forces after numerous attempts to break the
earthworks surrounding Alesia. The Gauls suffered
horrible losses and dispersed, leaving Vercingetorix
no choice but surrender.

I say again, the Anuireans HAD to have had an edge.
Numbers alone would not have won them the day. I say
it was more numerous wielders of magic in the from of
clerics in ADDITION to the core military being the
equal in skill...if not equipment...to the elves.


Anthony Edwards

--- irdeggman <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:
>
> Actually clerics can`t amke magic items as easily as
> wizards can. Wizards get bonus feats that they can
> use to accomplish this while clerics do not.
>
> But what I see you saying is that humans won by
> determination and numbers and also the fact that
> they had clerics to counter the elven wizards.
>
> This still works with canon by the way - the
> difference being clerical magic. Since if one side
> had wizards (even if they were outnumbered) and the
> other had none then the side with the wizards is
> more powerful.
>
> If the the other side gets clerics then that makes
> the difference since the clerics can counter the
> wizardly magic as well as provide for healing.
>
> Check out the Player`s Secrets of Tuarhievel to see
> what it says about elves drilling together. Then
> there was of course the gheallie Sidhe. Basically
> the elven units are better trained and use hit and
> run tactics to best use the terrain to their
> advantage. Remember also that prior to the human
> wars the elves had been at war with every race in
> Cerilia - the goblin wars, the dwarf wars, etc.

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[irdeggman]

Clerics make magic items just as easily as wizards do.
The rules are no different. If you mean it costs
them a special slot; well, that is very true. But we
are talking about a more numerous number of clerics
and so they will invariably have more numbers who are
non-combatant (perhaps elderly retired monks...) that
can devote their attention to making of magic items;
while those Elven Wizards will be needed on the
battle-field because they are still considered "young"
so to speak being from an ageless society.

When I said "easy" I had meant that wizards have access to more feats that allow them gain creat items feats.

Clerics on the other hand have to use their level based feats and then if they choose item creation feats they are giving up a lot of other choices. All those tasty divine feats, the extra turning one, any combat feats (more significant for a cleric since they are secondary combatants while wizards are pretty much the last ones to wade on in and fight).


Very hard for an Elven wizard to make magic items when
he is at war...much easier for the Cleric to continue
manufacture of such things when that is his only job.

This is a tricky road to follow since it implies that there were large numbers of magic weapons and items present during the wars. Something that contrary to the very core of the setting.

I mean an entire company (or unit) of troops equipped with +1 longswords is just sort of non-Birthright-ish isn't it?


Good point about the elves being at war for most of
their history...but I was under the impression from my
reading that most of these "great wars" were some time
in the past and that by the time humans had arrived,
the elves and dwarves, at least, were on good terms.

BUT...it does bring to light that the elves had fought
a very organized race prior to humans. So why they
continued to favor skirmishing and hit and run I can`t
say. Just as the Celts found when they fought the
Romans...such tactics rarely work.

Yes they are currently on "good" terms with the dwarves (well they leave each other alone - the dwarves take the underground and leave the surface to the elves).

Why the elves fight skirmishes can pretty much be tied to their ability to move unhindered through all types of terrain and this type of combat (i.e., hit and run) plays to that strength. Well that is my opinion anyway.


I refuse to believe that the elven units were better
trained. Again, the Elven armies were obviously more
skilled than conscripts and levies; but the core human
armies could not have been at a disadvantage to their
enemy...numbers alone have NEVER won a war...never.

How about the american revolutionary war? The English were much better trained, equipped and outnumbered the colonists in miltary might, but the colonists had terrain (gosh there is that hit and run tactics again) and won a war of attrition because of supplies. Now the equivalent to the elves/humans would be that the humans had removed much of the land (remember that almost all of Anuire was covered in great forest when the humans arrived) which left the elves without room to maneuver - thus they had to make up for it via tactics, training and magic. When the humans inserted clerical magic this tipped the scales.


I say again, the Anuireans HAD to have had an edge.
Numbers alone would not have won them the day. I say
it was more numerous wielders of magic in the from of
clerics in ADDITION to the core military being the
equal in skill...if not equipment...to the elves.

Anthony Edwards


I don't really we are at conflicting issues here.

The turning point, that which made the difference, was the addition of clerical magic.

[dalor]

Comments in line below***

--- irdeggman <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:

> When I said "easy" I had meant that wizards have
> access to more feats that allow them gain creat
> items feats.

***That they do; but...***

>
> Clerics on the other hand have to use their level
> based feats and then if they choose item creation
> feats they are giving up a lot of other choices.
> All those tasty divine feats, the extra turning one,
> any combat feats (more significant for a cleric
> since they are secondary combatants while wizards
> are pretty much the last ones to wade on in and
> fight).

***...you are assuming all clerics are adventurer type
clerics perhaps? Some clerics never see much past
their temples. What for them then? I say creation of
scrolls and potions for the use of their more militant
brethren...or even some great weapons and armor for
their champions.***


> This is a tricky road to follow since it implies
> that there were large numbers of magic weapons and
> items present during the wars. Something that
> contrary to the very core of the setting.
>
> I mean an entire company (or unit) of troops
> equipped with +1 longswords is just sort of
> non-Birthright-ish isn`t it?
>

***No...my intent was only to say simply that human
clerics could match, if not outright overpower, elven
magical strengths. It was not my intent to hint at
mass production of magical weapons or such...my
apologies if that is the way in which it was
understood.***

> Yes they are currently on "good" terms with the
> dwarves (well they leave each other alone - the
> dwarves take the underground and leave the surface
> to the elves).
>
> Why the elves fight skirmishes can pretty much be
> tied to their ability to move unhindered through all
> types of terrain and this type of combat (i.e., hit
> and run) plays to that strength. Well that is my
> opinion anyway.

***And a good opinion, except at some point even
skirmish warfare is wasted if you can`t prohibit the
advance of an enemy and his occupation of your
territory. ALWAYS there must be a set piece battle
where limited technology exists (i.e. bows and
swords). In this situation the humans would most
often prevail perhaps.***

> How about the american revolutionary war? The
> English were much better trained, equipped and
> outnumbered the colonists in miltary might, but the
> colonists had terrain (gosh there is that hit and
> run tactics again) and won a war of attrition
> because of supplies.

***Negative. We barely won that war...and I do mean
barely. I am all for Washington being a superb
general...as were most of his officers superb; but
that is because they were ALSO English. The
adaptation of using cover is not the same as hit and
run tactics (and at any rate, something we learned
from the aboriginal tribes here). The British were
used to continental European warfare...and the
Colonists refused to oblige; for the most part. There
were numerous set piece conflicts that the British
were simply over matched and straight out lost to the
Colonial Armies (though they did win most of the
battles as irony would have it...the colonists only
recovering because they had large manpower to pull on
compared to the stretched thin Royal British Army that
was scattered all over the world). As for being
out-numbered...also a Negative. While during the
early conflicts the British had more soldiers, this
was only because their enemy had not yet organized and
rallied aid from near and far. The Colonial militias
outnumbered the British...that is why the British were
using German Mercenaries.***


> Now the equivalent to the
> elves/humans would be that the humans had removed
> much of the land (remember that almost all of Anuire
> was covered in great forest when the humans arrived)
> which left the elves without room to maneuver - thus
> they had to make up for it via tactics, training and
> magic. When the humans inserted clerical magic this
> tipped the scales.

***I fully agree that even terrain was in the favor of
those dastardly tree-cutting humans! As the monarch
of Cariele in one game, I actually was a heavy
advocate of flaming pitch being launched from my seige
engines when I invaded Tuarhievel...I burned large
swathes of elven territory just to force them into the
open and into set piece battle. Yes, I was evil; but
ash covered ground is actually good for farming (at
least that is what my monarch convinced himself).***

> ------------ QUOTE ----------
> I say again, the Anuireans HAD to have had an edge.
> Numbers alone would not have won them the day. I say
> it was more numerous wielders of magic in the from
> of clerics in ADDITION to the core military being
the
> equal in skill...if not equipment...to the elves.
>
> -----------------------------
>
> I don`t really we are at conflicting issues here.
>
> The turning point, that which made the difference,
> was the addition of clerical magic.

I suppose that is exactly what I`m saying...human
magic trumped the edge that elves had: magic.


Anthony Edwards

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[geeman]

At 05:39 AM 8/5/2006, irdeggman wrote:

>Ahh but the "historical" strength of a wizard`s tower (which is not
>a manifestation by the way since it is not natural at all) was in
>its isolation adn then in its "magical protections" (e.g., wards and
>the like). Their strength was not in the number of people they had
>to stand gaurd over the tower.

Most of the time awizard`s tower is probably not a manifestation in
most sources, though in certain cases it might be used as one. For
instance, in the case of the destroyed tower of the College of
Sorcery, the smoldering grounds of the former college might be where
the wizards of the new college have/share a source(0) holding from
which to anchor ley lines. At least, as a DM I`d be perfectly happy
with that rationale.

Among the elves we have a special situation also. In a couple places
ancient elven structures are described as being source manifestations
or as being powerful enough to increase the source potential of a
province. That makes me suspect that elven structures are, at least,
somewhat magical in nature and might be more than simple
dwellings. As elves are magical by nature their dwellings might
focus the magic of the area and become manifestations.

That might also be a rationale for the way their population does not
decrease source holdings. Their construction actually increases the
magical properties of the land rather than the opposite.

Gary

[irdeggman]

At 05:39 AM 8/5/2006, irdeggman wrote:

>Ahh but the "historical" strength of a wizard`s tower (which is not
>a manifestation by the way since it is not natural at all) was in
>its isolation adn then in its "magical protections" (e.g., wards and
>the like). Their strength was not in the number of people they had
>to stand gaurd over the tower.

Most of the time awizard`s tower is probably not a manifestation in
most sources, though in certain cases it might be used as one. For
instance, in the case of the destroyed tower of the College of
Sorcery, the smoldering grounds of the former college might be where
the wizards of the new college have/share a source(0) holding from
which to anchor ley lines. At least, as a DM I`d be perfectly happy
with that rationale.

Or it was something else entirely - an artifact of some type? The fact that city kept increasing in size over the years could have also contributed. Either way that is one source specifically stated to be a "mystery" in the 2nd ed material.


Among the elves we have a special situation also. In a couple places
ancient elven structures are described as being source manifestations
or as being powerful enough to increase the source potential of a
province. That makes me suspect that elven structures are, at least,
somewhat magical in nature and might be more than simple
dwellings. As elves are magical by nature their dwellings might
focus the magic of the area and become manifestations.

That might also be a rationale for the way their population does not
decrease source holdings. Their construction actually increases the
magical properties of the land rather than the opposite.

Gary

Or it could be that they actually create things out of existing and living materials. Like the Thron Throne or how the "typcial" elven houses are described in the PS of Tuar. I would akin this more to the life-shaping ability of halflings in Dark Sun rather than just building things.

Another possibility is that the elves themselves being so inherently magical and tied to the meib. of the land actually "contribute" to its source potential while at the same time reducing it by manufacturing. So there is a net loss of 0 in the source potential for elven lands. This one makes the most sense to me since it also ties into the the "history" of the elves from the PS of Tuar and Boodspawn.

[geeman]

At 06:06 AM 8/6/2006, you wrote:

>>Most of the time awizard`s tower is probably not a manifestation in
>>most sources, though in certain cases it might be used as one. For
>>instance, in the case of the destroyed tower of the College of
>>Sorcery, the smoldering grounds of the former college might be where
>>the wizards of the new college have/share a source(0) holding from
>>which to anchor ley lines. At least, as a DM I`d be perfectly happy
>>with that rationale.
>
>Or it was something else entirely - an artifact of some type? The
>fact that city kept increasing in size over the years could have
>also contributed. Either way that is one source specifically stated
>to be a "mystery" in the 2nd ed material.

I`m kind of liking the possibilities here. If its the building
itself and/or an artifact in the ruins (which may itself have been
responsible for the destruction of the tower) there is a pretty good
denouement for one of the more obvious adventure possibilities in the
published materials. That is, the idea of exploring those ruins is
pretty near a prototypical D&D adventure, but if the point in the
adventure is to gain control of a manifestation that amounts to a
source(0) then it has some BR flair to it. Something to think
about.... I`m a big proponent of role-playing out the domain level
actions at the adventure level rather than just resolving them with
some GB, RP and a die roll. Making the typical dungeon crawl into a
BR specific process is pretty much the definitive way to do that.

Upon reflection we should bear in mind that there are magic items
that have a pretty profound effect on source holdings. Rings of ley,
jewels/stones that act as holding levels, etc. Those are powerful
items and should be recognized as part of the whole manifestation
issue. The physical appearance of a source holding might be very
much like those items (though less mobile) in size, appearance,
etc. One must consider that in order to determine how such an
adventure might be portrayed.

>Or it could be that they actually create things out of existing and
>living materials. Like the Thron Throne or how the "typcial" elven
>houses are described in the PS of Tuar. I would akin this more to
>the life-shaping ability of halflings in Dark Sun rather than just
>building things.
>
>Another possibility is that the elves themselves being so inherently
>magical and tied to the meib. of the land actually "contribute" to
>its source potential while at the same time reducing it by
>manufacturing. So there is a net loss of 0 in the source potential
>for elven lands. This one makes the most sense to me since it also
>ties into the the "history" of the elves from the PS of Tuar and Boodspawn.

Like most rationales of BR issues, I think a combination of both (and
a few other) explanations is the best way to go. It can sometimes
make for a bit of confusion if there are several routes to the same
end result, but it`s actually less confusing than trying to come up
with explanations on the fly or trying to fit rules on top of a
role-playing effect (which is what all those rationales really are.)

Gary

[gazza666]

On a (somewhat) related note - are there any plans to extend the list of Realm spells? It seems like they are fairly scarce at present - while certainly the major categories of things you'd like to do with them are covered, there's surely scope here for extension.

I'm afraid I don't own the Book of Magecraft or similar - did they have a more extensive list that haven't been converted yet, or was it deemed that many of them were in some way inappropriate?

[irdeggman]

On a (somewhat) related note - are there any plans to extend the list of Realm spells? It seems like they are fairly scarce at present - while certainly the major categories of things you'd like to do with them are covered, there's surely scope here for extension.

I'm afraid I don't own the Book of Magecraft or similar - did they have a more extensive list that haven't been converted yet, or was it deemed that many of them were in some way inappropriate?

There were several printed Realm spells that didn't make the playtest document. Most of the ommisions were by oversight and rushing to get the product out. So yes there will be some more added that were left out.

But having said that - don't limit your self to only those published. Use them as a basis to research and invent your own. Remember that every Realm Spell is individually keyed to the person that researches it. Wizard X's version of Demagogue is different than wizard Y's even if they accomplish the same effect. They function much like epic spells in that manner.

[gazza666]

But having said that - don't limit your self to only those published. Use them as a basis to research and invent your own. Remember that every Realm Spell is individually keyed to the person that researches it. Wizard X's version of Demagogue is different than wizard Y's even if they accomplish the same effect. They function much like epic spells in that manner.

Excellent point, of course. It's just that I don't really have a good "feel" for what level and source requirements a new spell might have; a few more examples would solidify that for me.