The Prince and the Archduke

[Satchkep45]

At first it seems a gross mis-match. While Boeruine is certainly not a weak power, he still cannot compete with the might of Avanil in open combat. Why hasn’t the Prince struck out and destroyed his greatest enemy? Certainly it would not be easy to destroy Boeruine, but it could be done. What defenses and strategies does Boeruine have? When the war comes, what options does he possess? Here are a few of my ideas.

Firstly, Boeruine’s empire consists of:

The Duchy of Boeruine (6 provinces, 36 province levels, 36 law levels)
External Law Holdings (3 in Talinie, 4 in Tuornen, 2 in the Imperial City)
Vassals:
Talinie (7 provinces, 18 province levels, 10 law levels, 33 temple levels, vassal
mage with 28+ source levels)
The Hidden Temple of Cuiraécen (16+ temple levels)
The Boeruine Trading Guild (26 guild levels)
Mage Arlen Innis (17 source levels)

In comparison, Avan’s empire consists of:

The Principality of Avanil (9 provinces, 37 levels, 37 law levels)
External Law Holdings (6 in Brosengae, 14 in Taeghas, 6 in Mieres, 3 in Diemed, 4 in
Tuornen, 3 in the Imperial City)
Vassals:
The Western Imperial Temple of Haelyn (58 temple levels)
The Prince’s Pride (35 guild levels)
The Duchy of Brosengae (3 provinces, 12 levels, 6 law levels, 29 guild levels)
The County of Taeghas (8 provinces, 3 law levels, 52 source levels)
The Imperial Colony of Mieres (8 provinces, 8 law levels, 24 guild levels)

Strategies and possible allies for Boeruine:
1. The Archduke’s “ace in his sleeve” is the duchess of Brosengae, whose well-timed betrayal of the Prince could devastate Avan’s offensive. In fact, all of the Prince’s vassal states (Brosengae, Taeghas and Mieres) are rather unwilling and would enjoy a return to their freedom if it could be arranged.
2. Already the Arch-Duke has given troops to aid in the defense of Dhoesone. Haelyn’s Bastion of Truth in that realm is a daughter-church of the Northern Imperial Temple; this realm is probably the best candidate for a future Boeruinese client state, provided Mhoried and Taurhievel can be distracted (though with Savane Mhoried on the throne in the elf realm, this would be more easily arranged).
3. Boeruine has always had close ties with the Rjurik states to the north, a wise Arch-Duke would work to solidify these contacts. Halskapa is about to fall into a state of civil war and if Boeruine is careful, it can play the role of king-maker. A Halskapan vassal or ally would cut trade ties to Avanil, aid Boeruine in wars and provide other assistance. Halskapans might also sign over Dantier Island (which they officially claim) to Boeruine, which would make an excellent freeport for Anuire-Rjurik tradeThe Boeruinese might also be able make Stjordvik into a vassal and find an ally in the raiders of Rjuvik.
4. Even if the Halskapans don’t come over to the Boeruinese side, Dantier Island could be annexed and become a port and naval station. It was settled by Anuireans (Bannier, Andien and Sons) who might be sympathetic to Boeruine.
5. A potent secret ally might be found in the pirate clans of Aerele and Baerghos Island. Deals might be worked out with letters of marque, access to ports, and fiscal or military assistance in return for either free passage of Boeruinese shipping or even closer ties. Part of the Boeruinese navy could “defect” and become pirates along the western coast. The pirates could begin this work long before a formal declaration of war was declared.
6. In Tuornen, the House Ghonallison is a strong Boeruinese ally and the Archduke has the support of the northern peasants. If Avan and Alam could be brought together, Tuornen would have to turn to Boeruine for support. A proxy war between Alamie/Avanil and Tuornen/Boeruine could be fought.
7. Thurazor has allied with Boeruine in the past and might be a possible future ally as well. The goblin tribes could even cross the Five Peaks and attack Alamie, throwing the balance of any proxy conflict there in return for gold up front and the right to plunder.
8. Farther afield, Boeruine would find supporters wherever Avanil expands or threatens. If Diemed becomes an Avan proxy, Medoere, Ilien, Endier and Roesone might join an alliance with Avan. If Avan throws his support behind William Moergan, Jaison Raenech will be looking for allies (though Ghoere is a more probable ally). Endier will be drawn into any conflict in the old duchy of Alamie, at the very least as a trading point and neutral ground for all participants at the most as a full ally and participant. Kalien might be willing to side with Boeruine if promised the province of Tuor’s Hold and support against Avan.

How have other folks handled the coming Boeruine-Avanil war? Did the Archduke simply lose or was there a true fight? Who won? How did this conflict relate to the other conflagrations boiling in Cerilia (the civil war in Osoerde, the coming rampage of the Spider, Diemed's attack on Medoere, Ghoere trying to conquer the world, the possible rampage of the Gorgon, the looming civil war in Halskapa and Jankaping, etc)?

[graham anderson]

Well there are a number of problems with a war between avanil and boeruine the passes threw the mountains being one.

Neither wants to weaken themselves to the point when they are vulnerable to others.

I see boeruine as a more capable general than Avan who is a better politician.

Avan's allies are not as loyal as boeruines.

People wont want Avan to win so you might have strange forces aiding Boeruine should things turn against him.

Boeruines mage is a darned site better than Avan.

I have dealt with the Boeruine-Avanil war a few times. It descended into a terrible bloodbath that swept up all of Anuire. Each time it also ended about the same with Boeruine holding the west coast having taken taeghus while much of the rest of anuire was a devestated wasteland at the mercy of outside forces like the gorgon and manslayer who are more than happy to take advantage of the situation. Nobody won anuire lost but the greater boeruine west coast protected by the mountains and forests suffered least.

[ausrick]

This is all good information! It would be nice to have different DM's experiences with how a war with Boeruine and Avanil went down, or for that matter other realms as well, and what sort of influences and stategies occurred. In my campaign, the players are removed by some distance from the Iron Throne, but if things heat up in that direction it would be nice to have some back ground ideas for how the rumors of distant war eventually heat up and fan into the flames that will even draw in remote isolationist regents. Especially if I can put the PC's in a position where they dont' know which one to support, because either way they could be putting their realm's neck on the line and they would need to watch out for opportunistic Awnsheghlien.

[Benjamin]

As was stated, there are very few ways through the Seamist Mountains. It looks to me that the only ways through are:

Daulton to Coere
Nentril to Seamist
Rhuobhe's Realm
Monsedge to Dhalaese

If Brosengae were to rebel and bring her fleet into the Arnienbae along with Boeruines, then Avan would be bottled up. The only way through would then be Nentril to Seamist. If Brosengae rebelled while the majority of Avan's armies were in Taeghas, they could quickly starve.

While Taeghas is a loyal follower of Avan, he isn't much for mundane things. The Count appears to simply want to study magic and be left alone. Anything that starts to hurt his magical learning, ie wars that cause source damage, would make him rather unhappy and liable to try to stop fighting.

In the couple of simulations that I ran, Avan would lose. Mostly because he could not rely upon his vassals. Mieres would keep promising things, but his ships would always be in the wrong place at the right time. Brosengae would flounder around and sometimes openly rebel. Taeghas would just try to not be the main battle ground.

In the case that Brosengae rebels, Boeruine would land his forces in Bindier and march on Avan. Otherwise the battles would be skirmishes in Taeghas, and sometimes Tuornen. But the result was always the same - Avan would not be able to carry on the war to a victory and would be forced to yield, granting independence to Mieres, Taeghas and Brosengae.

In each simulation, I also had Rhuobhe run rampant, wiping out people in every bordering province.

[vota dc]

But Talinie is ally of Boeruine,not vassal!

[Green Knight]

I think it an odd assumption that all of Avan's vassals and allies should suddenly abandon him on the eve of battle, and stand by Avan's old enemies - even more so beacause Avan is said to be quite good at politics and intigue.

So that makes the whole castle a bit shaky, since its built upon a heap of "ifs" :)

[Green Knight]

I would daresay that Avan's central position in Anuire and high profile also makes him vulnerable. He aspires to the Iron Thone, which should pretty much mean that no other major power wants to oblige him.

So if Avan starts to look like he's going to take down Boeruine, then a host of other realms would probably make problems for him. If only to keep the status quo.

[Vallariel]

Is there a pass from Nentril to Seamist?

[Benjamin]

I think it an odd assumption that all of Avan's vassals and allies should suddenly abandon him on the eve of battle, and stand by Avan's old enemies - even more so beacause Avan is said to be quite good at politics and intigue.

Yup, correct. We know, though, that Vaumel really just wants to be left alone and run his own corrupt enterprises. He only cleans up a little when the auditors arrive, then goes back to his evil ways. Unless Avan arrives in Seaward with an army, Vaumel isn't likely to risk his neck much.

Brosengae is canon unreliable entirely, so we know she will backstab at the best convenience (maybe literally).

And Khorien in canon was said to not want to rule, thus he gave up all his law in Taeghas in exchange for sources in Avanil. While I have him support Avan for the most part in my simulations, his lack of worldliness haunts his abilities.

But then, it's all 'ifs'. :) A couple die rolls difference here and there and things may go the other way.

[Doyle]

IMC, rather than having those two nations rattling sabres over the border like they usually do, Avan has effectively won and now controls both realms and (for the most part) both sets of allies - not that either Prince/ Duke is around to enjoy the victory - Avan's daughter (with Bourine's younger son) is now the regent of the largest realm in Anuire.
This was achieved mainly due to three events - the killing of Rhoubhe, misdirected orders to the Bourine units and a timely assassination of Bourine.

Now my players have just got to hope that Avan's duaghter is as sweet and harmless as she appears ;-)

[kgauck]

Generally Boeruine has a much better strategic position. She has an enemy on one side, an ally (indeed the Archduke claims Talinie as a vassal) on the other, the sea on her flank. Sure there Tournen, but Tournen as an enemy means Alamie as a friend. Boeruine can wage war with 100% of her resources deployed (or very near to all of her resources) while Avanil must hold substantial resources back to watch Ghoere, Diemed, Alamie/Tournen, and so on.

Its not just a question of being warry of a sudden attack from a neighbor while you are preoccupied, as bad as that would be. Its also a question of wanting to have influence by virtue of being able to intervene. For example, if Avanil pulled troops off of Ghoere, and the Iron Baron invaded anyone, Avanil would just have to accept the expansion and aggrandizement of Ghoere. Likewise Diemed and her break-away provinces, and the mess in Alamie and Tournen.

Avanil is getting real value from the size of her army because she can threaten to intervene all over. Everyone gives the Prince respect and seeks to be on at least cordial terms with him because of this. If the Prince were to go to war with Boeruine and attempt to actually defeat him, the required force to assure victory (roughly three times Boeruine's force) woud leave Avanil unable to influence events in the South Coast or the Heartlands.

This leaves Avanil as a staus quo power seeking to conservativly maintain her position. War represents far more risk than any possible reward. Her advantage, then is to seek to build a system of allies, trade partners, and to influence the events in other realms to her favor. In this way, her central position becomes an advantage, while militarily its a disadvantage.

Finally, one must consider the balance of power. Generally, the thing that motivates every state is the fear that their enemies will profit from any change in the status quo more than they will, and so princes gang up on any power more liable to change the status quo. As a result, the most common war is a limited war, in which each side brings a limited fraction of its resources of approximate equal size, unless it possesses a surplus beyond that amount. Even then the larger power is always wary that too much ambition will bring other powers in against them. So wars are fought for limited ends, since this will be less liable to create opposition. For example, the law holdings that Avanil has in its neighbors territories might well represent sherrifs and officials who are on the payroll of Avanil, but they might also represent the result of prior wars where Avanil claimed no provinces, but demanded a single law holding as its prize.

My guess would be that any war that took up sufficient resources by Avanil would become a liscence for Ghoere and Diemed to pursue their own agendas by force. AFAIC, Medoere and Roesone only continue to exist because Avanil wants them to. The division between Alamie and Tournen exists only because its in the interests of Ghoere, Boeruine, and Avanil to keep it divided. And so on.

[Sigmund]

I haven't yet started my campaign, but I have thought about this situation in my prep (I've considered starting my players in Talinie), and it seems to me that it just boils down to an open war being too costly. Avan's allies are reluctant at best, Talinie is hardly likely to want to aid Boeruine either, and Rhoubhe is just itching for just that kind of opportunity to weaken his nearest enemies. None of the other Anuirean states want either Avan or Boeruine to become any more powerful than they already are. Even Rjurik (and Khinasi and Brecht) regents would be reluctant to see a reunited Anuire, or even a dominant Anuirean state I would think. Too many factions rely on the status quo, or would gain by a weakening of the two enemies, for them to risk open war yet (or perhaps ever). In my research, it seems to me the realm best suited to running a war (at least to start with) is Osoerde, with neighboring states jumping in to "help", albeit perhaps covertly or indirectly.

The campaign I played in years ago, the DM had Boeruine defeat Avan, but only because a new emperor had arisen by defeating (although not killing) the Gorgon and reclaiming the Sword of Roele, and being blessed with the favor of Haelyn (he was a paladin). Boeruine kept his archdukedom, and was given rulership of western Anuire in exchange the emperor's help in defeating Avan and then supporting the emperor against Ghoere, Diem, and other rebellious regents. The emperor had the support of Osoerde (returned to it's rightful ruler), Rhoesone, Ilien, Mhoried, Medeore, Talinie, Sielwode (in return for his previous aid in repelling an attack by the Gorgon's forces), and Danigau (in return for marrying Danig's daughter. It was great fun participating in all that, let me tell ya. Two of the four PCs were blooded, but none of us were regents, however we worked for the Emperor, as we had adventured with him some previously (he was a former player's PC).

[Cargaroth]

Sounds good. Just the sort of adventure based campaign BR was supposed to create. Great stuff!

[Eyeless_One]

Question is also, say one conquers the other and manages to claim title as Emperor. How would that actually work in a game?

[Cargaroth]

Having had a PC or major NPC claim the title of Emporer, this perhaps would be a good time to retire the character or even the campaign on a high note. However even with a strong power base there are likely to be ongoing factions still within Anuire. Balencing these factions and maintaining peace would be ongoing challenges. What about Anuire's relationship with the Khinasi states? The challenge of the Gorgon and other Awnsheiglin? Vosgaard is still untamed. Aduria and the other continents await. An Imperial Anuire with a steady emporer probably works best for PCs who are his agents and abassadors, rather than regents, but Cerilia is a great world for them too!

[Eyeless_One]

I was thinking more in Anurie politics terms. How do you actually go about beeing an emperor? Especially in Anurie where you have several very independent nations.

[Cargaroth]

It would all depend upon the nature of the claim of Emperor. Is it on basis of bloodline? If so would the empire be a system of alliances. In such case one would hope that the Emporer has significant lands of his own, otherwise he become a puppet of the major lords. Is it through power and conquest? If so would the remaining regents become favoured vassals? The emporer in a campaign I have run made sweeping changes, re-instituting 5 main duchies according to the major geographic regions of Anuire. The dukes donated regency to the Emperor. Earls (regents of existing nations) donated regency to the dukes, barons (rulers of about three provinces) donated some regency to to earls. As you might have guessed the Emperor was of lawful alignment and already directly controlled more than half of Aniure. This is just one example. It also left other regents the opportunity to improve their own lands, built catles, roads etc.