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LaeAndril Rayn
04-16-2006, 08:58 PM
This thread has been started as an extension to a discussion that began in another thread. The discussion started in the thread titled Brosengaen (and some Taeghan history) under the forum BRCS- Atlas comments/discussion. Forum member Angelbialaska is the one who started the thread.

The discussion turned from the nicely written history of Brosengae/Taeghas to who and what were the Twelve original Duchies. To include some details:


Originally posted by Raesene Andu
I think the best way to resolve the 5 tribes vs. 12 tribes contradiction is to say that there were either five major tribes and 7 minor ones, or that the twelve tribes were loosely organized into five major alliance-groups (each probably named for the leading/largest/most powerful tribe). With such an arraingement it is easy to explain why the earliest documents refer to only 5 tribes when there were actually more than that.

I would nominate the following as candidates for the "major" tribes:
1. "Anwe/Aeloran"
2. Boru
3. Mhora
4. Elaime
5. Deretha

If we want to go with alliange-groups, these might make natural groupings:

1. Anwe, Gehaiste, Bheallach
2. Boru, Duireina, Brosen
3. Mhora, Elin
4. Elaime, Carel
5. Deretha, Aeren

And for those who were wondering.

Anwe = Avanil
Gehaiste = Ghieste
Bheallach = Dhalaene
Boru = Boeruine
Duireina = Osoerde
Brosen = Taeghas
Mhora = Mhoried
Elin = Elinie
Elamie = Alamie
Carel = Cariele
Deretha = Diemed
Aeren = Aerenwe




Originally posted by Angelbialaska
Where is it mentioned that Ghieste was one of the original duchies? We just know that there was a duchy within the area of Ghoere, but that could as easily be Bhalaene as Ghieste.

And why do everybody want 2 duchies in Ghoere? Ruins of Empire states that it was one and it even names the remaining 11 duchies. Does this mean that there was 13 duchies?



Originally posted by Raesene Andu
There were two duchies within the borders of Ghoere, Ghieste and Bhalaene. Ghoere was formed from both, which is what makes it such a powerful realm.



Originally posted by The incredible, edible Phil
There were 12 duchies. Offhand they are:

Aerenwe
Alamie
Avanil
Bhalaene/now part of Ghoere
Boeruine
Cariele/ruling family moved to Coeranys
Diemed
Elinie
Ghieste/now part of Ghoere
Mhoried
Osoerde
Taeghas/Brosengae



Originally posted by Angelbialaska
The Atlas in the boxed sets mentions 12 duchies too. These are:

Aerenwe
Alamie
Avanil
Boeruine
Cariele (Ruling family relocated to Coeranys)
Diemed
Elinie
Mhoried
Osoerde
Taeghas (Ruling family in Brosengae?)
Talinie
And one more Duchy which was located in what is now Ghoere.



Originally posted by Thorogood Roele
There is a map in the Novel "Iron Throne" that indicates the 12 duchies, in that Ghieste and Dhalaene are included.

Here they are according to that novel
Avanil, Taeghas, Boeruine, Alamie, Mhoried, Cariele, Elinie, Osoerde, Aerenwe, Dhalaene (part of ghoere), Ghieste and Diemed. It lists border nations as the following: Mieres, brosengae talinie the five peaks thurazor dhosone tuarhieval the gorgons crown murkilad markazor the sielewode coeranys.


I hope these are enough details to place the discussion in context. There seems to be conflicts as to who were the original Twelve Duchies. I'm not the only one who's trying to build a campaign, yet continuously being tripped up by what the "official" answers are.

To further bolster what Angelbialaska is leading on to, I have found the exact page in the original 2nd Edition Birthright Campaign Setting material that mentions who the Twelve Duchies were.

From the Birthright Campaign Setting boxed set, Book I, Atlas of Cerilia, I quote from p. 17, paragraph 5:


The former Empire was once made up of the Twelve Duchies of Anuire plus the lands conquered by the Roeles then. Today, eleven of the twelve realms still exist (in addition to younger Anuirean kingdoms): Boeruine, Mhoried, Diemed, Avanil, Alamie, Aerenwe, Elinie, Talinie, Taeghas, Osoerde, and Cariele. The lands that are currently controlled by Ghoere were also among the Twelve, but that name is of recent vintage.


Thus, are the Birthright Developers going to change this? Are they altering this original list so that two countries within Ghoere could have been part of the Twelve? As I said in the other thread, I greatly admire the work Bloodsilver.com did with Ghoere's history, but does that mean the Birthright Developers have decided to go with what Bloodsilver.com wrote? What's wrong with the idea that either Ghieste or Bhalaene was one of the Twelve, and the other was one of the lesser houses? That idea would seem to fit in with the original 2nd Edition Birthright Campaign Setting, and would not effect what Bloodsilver.com wrote too much. I am just suggesting some ideas, that's all. I am not sure how I am going to resolve this for my own campaign, yet.

So, I ask the Birthright Developers plainly, what is the "official" answer to this conflict? If you've already answered it somewhere on Birthright.net, please point me in the right direction. Or, am I yelling into the wind? ;)

I greatly appreciate your knowledge on this. :)

Thanks,
LaeAndril Rayn

Benjamin
04-17-2006, 04:37 PM
Aye yay yay! Talk about beating a dead horse. ;) :P

I don't know about the tribes of Andu. I don't believe that they are all listed anywhere. Yes, a few are named, but it's quite likely that a lot of tribes considered themselves Andu and eventually died out or were absorbed. There is very little in canon about it, so I won't worry and let whomever do whatever, for flavor.

The canon materials seem to contradict themselves a few times (surprise surprise!!). However, I believe that the Creators annointed the following as the 12 Duchies (a map at the front of War or Iron Throne confirms this):

Boeruine
Avanil
Taeghas
Alamie
Diemed
Aerenwe
Osoerde
Ghieste
Bhalaene
Mhoried
Cariele
Elinie

Talinie and Coeranys were both marches. PS of Talinie talks about its formation a couple hundred years into the Empire. The Atlas of Cerelia is clearly wrong when it says Talinie was part of the original 12.

Brosengae wasn't a Duchy, but the recent leaders have claimed the title. Taeghas was one of the 12, but it's current leaders have not claimed Ducal title. Ghoere was forged together in recent times, and the upstart lords want to be recognized with a bigger title, but have no blood claim to one. The current line of Elinie are descendants of Khinasi paladins come to Anuire who then slew the former tyrannical line. Cariele family was tossed out of their namesake duchy and took over Coeranys.

Green Knight
04-20-2006, 12:36 PM
Beating dead horses? Sounds like fun to me :)

Looking in the Iron Throne doesn't really tell you all there is to the story; since it takes place almost 1000 years after the formation of the Anuirean Empire. Maybe nothing changed for all those years, but I find that very hard to accept.

But other than that, you have your list right IMO (exept that Bhalaene is the province, but the Duchy was named Dhalaene if memory serves me).

LaeAndril Rayn
04-21-2006, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by Benjamin
The canon materials seem to contradict themselves a few times (surprise surprise!!). However, I believe that the Creators annointed the following as the 12 Duchies (a map at the front of War or Iron Throne confirms this):

Boeruine
Avanil
Taeghas
Alamie
Diemed
Aerenwe
Osoerde
Ghieste
Bhalaene
Mhoried
Cariele
Elinie


So, this list has been the final decision on the original Twelve Duchies? Please forgive me, I am relatively new to Birthright.net, so I most likely missed this discussion whenever it took place. And, "Bhalaene" was actually a province in the Duchy of Dhalaene? Yes? No? I'm just trying to get everything in order.....:)

Also, does that mean the "official" decision is that the History of Ghoere written by Bloodsilver.com is what we're going with as far as that whole thing is concerned?

Thanks for everyone's help!

Lae'Andril Rayn