Playing a Guilder PC. [Archive]

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Sorontar

06-08-2025, 03:17 AM

I have just added a new Manager subclass to the 5e Guilder (http://www.birthright.net/forums/showwiki.php?title=Guilder_5e) class that Fizz started. My concern for the Guilder has always been about what exactly do they do if they are a PC? Fighters do combat. Spellcasters do spells. Rogues do sneaky, crafty things. Guilders do what?

The premise for Guild realms is that it is commerce and running businesses. That is fine for the domain level, but does that provide any advantage at the adventure level that isn't already covered by a PC's background knowledge and their NWPs or feats?

The problem is that there is no base focus capability for the guilder to continually improve as it goes up levels. The 5e Guilder subclasses are the Trader, the Delver, the Explorer, and the Manager. The Trader is about making deals. The Delver is about collecting things. The Explorer is about navigation. The Manager is about optimisation. So what should the base guilder be about? How will that impact combat encounters (unfortunately the basis of much a D&D game)?

In 2e, there is no Guilder class. In 3.5e there is no Guilder PC class. Thelandrin suggested a PC class (http://www.birthright.net/forums/showwiki.php?title=User:Thelandrin_Guilder) based around Intelligence and Charisma and earning wealth, but it has no abilities that help combat (simple weapons, light armour). ShadowMoon suggested a Prestige class (http://www.birthright.net/forums/showwiki.php?title=User:ShadowMoon_Prestige_Class_ Guilder) based on Intelligence, Charisma and Wisdom but that was mainly about negotiations, with nothing for combat. The 5e Guilder is based on Intelligence and Wisdom with simple and martial weapons but all armour.

If you were running a Guilder PC, what would you do in combat? Would you fight melee or ranged weapons? Would you want to buff/improve the team? Could you impact the environment, weapons, armour, chances of either side? Would you just give it the same as a rogue (e.g., evasion, backstabbing)? How would this relate to what you consider to be a Guilder?

Sorontar

Fizz

06-08-2025, 10:05 PM

I am very interested in this topic, and will reply more thoroughly soon. But i have two quick comments to start:

Guilders do what?...
In 2e, there is no Guilder class.

The 2nd ed Guilder was presented in Havens of the Great Bay. It is a member of the Rogue group (alongside thieves and bards), and specifically listed as being intended a full class alongside fighters, thieves, etc.

As to what they do, in 2nd ed they were the skill-mongers (non-weapon proficiencies in 2nd ed speak). They got an extra slot every level (whereas most other classes got 1 every 3 or 4). So they can be very useful in unconventional ways. I have always thought of adventuring guilders akin to DaVinci, or MacGyver, or even a bit like the gnomish tinkers from Dragonlance.

So my 5e conversion (and my C&C version) tried to keep that focus on skills- making the Guilder the best in such endeavours.

-Fizz

PS: i like your new Manager path.

Sorontar

06-08-2025, 11:05 PM

I *knew* there was a 2e version somewhere. I'll have a look later (not sure when... busy week).

Glad you liked the Manager subclass. I have been thinking about what skills would be available in businesses (especially beyond sales and profit) and then trying to think of how they could be helpful in an adventure setting. As such, I am not trying to make an adventurer role and then fit the guilder in it. I am trying to do it the other way round.

I am also trying to work out the following two, working on public relations/advertising, and gambling/shareholding:

Promoter/Marketer
Marketer get the attention of the audience, distracting them from other activities, influencing their options and choices. The target must be aware of Marketer to be affected.

Distract: Advantage to the Stealth, Sleight-of-Hand and Deception skill rolls of allies. You can do this as many times as your proficiency bonus per long rest.
Delay: Distract any enemy within 30 foot such that their next actions are delayed until the end of the round in which they occur. The target has no reaction until after they have performed their action.
Decoy: The target is confused by who has just impacted it in this round by an action, including combat, spells, speech and other interactions.
Disrupt: The target’s interaction with the Marketer is interfered with, be it combat attack or spell targetting.

Investor/Gambler
Investors take calculated risks with other endeavours. They try to influence the chances and direction of success.

hedge their bets - place a limit on the success, but make it a success
long and shorts - immediate positive effect but also possible negative long term (or the other way around)

Ultimately this then makes me wonder which of these 5e subclass abilities should in fact be available for all 5e Guilders, such that they are the core of what the Guilder is. I am increasingly thinking that during combat/encounters they should be a support class that influences the chances of success or failure. As such, they set up an environment for others to use. This is what got me to designing the Manager subclass (would like a better name, but it fits).

Sorontar

Sorontar

06-09-2025, 12:31 PM

For my (and your) reference, here are some previous discussions of the Guilder class:

What is the Guilder (2007, started by kgauck) (http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?3319-What-is-the-Guilder)
For the creation of an official Guilder Class (2008, started by Mojczak) (http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?4462-For-the-creation-of-an-official-Guilder-Class)
The 5E Guilder (2017, started by Fizz) (http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?28708-the-5E-Guilder)

The poll kgauck ran had the following result:

Question: What is the role of the guilder?
Voters: 116

Explorer/Adventurer? 12 votes (10.34%)
Domain Guild Expert? 82 votes (70.69%)
Rogue/Noble Hybrid? 38 votes (32.76%)

Quoting kgauck:
"The explorer adventurer would put its greatest emphasis as a traditional adventuring class, and using the least domain level or leadership abilities. The example of Indiana Jones might be offered.

The domain guild expert would be most directed to running a domain with skills and abilities suited to being a regent.

The noble/rogue hybrid would be a mixture of rogue and noble classes, probably a bit of a swashbuckler. Something of an adventurer, but with the leadership of a noble, and probabaly more of a diplomat and charmer than a rogue.

I think every option is probabaly a skills based PC, as much as the rogue is anyway. No one has suggested that the guilder isn't a skillsed heavy guy. "

Fizz

06-09-2025, 04:31 PM

I *knew* there was a 2e version somewhere. I'll have a look later (not sure when... busy week).

Yup, and i use it as the basis for all my conversions. The 2nd ed version is still the best imnsho... :)

Regarding the Manager and your other Path ideas....

I like the idea that Manager is the one who "runs the business", and it might work well as the Path of choice for those wanting to run a domain. Promoter / Marketer and Investor / Gambler feel too specific to me, but some of the ideas could be subsumed into the Manager.

But your "gambler" notion has promise- how about the "Gamer / Gambler" Path? This would include the hustler or mountebank archetype, making money for himself rather than through conventional businesses. And some of the Promoter ideas might work for the Gambler too.

-Fizz

Fizz

06-09-2025, 05:16 PM

The descriptive text of the Guilder class in Havens of the Great Bay says the following:

-------
Guilders specialize in trade, profit, marketability, arbitrage, and monetary concerns. They capitalize on nonweapon proficiencies that help them practice in a commercial venue.
Guilders should be considered adventurers just like thieves and wizards.
-------

They are members of the rogue group, which means they fight like thieves. But they actually fight better that thieves by the virture of being allowed any weapon or armor. The only thief abilities they get is Read Languages, with a rating better than the thief (hence why i included Decipher Script as a standard ability). For their own abilities, guilders get a bonus nonweapon proficiency slot every level.

So, under 2nd Ed, Guilders were the undeniable "skills" class.

3E messed this up, because the thief's special abilities (hide in shadows, climb sheer surfaces, etc) became mundane skills (hide, climb) that anyone could do. The rogue became the default skills-class with very few special abilities. So the only place for the Guilder to go was more skill points.

Under 5e, skills were largely consolidated into a select few generic skills. So my conversion focuses on that: anything that gives more skills or bonuses to skills.

I think in defining the Guilder, it's also useful to mention what it's not.

What the Guilder is: skilled, literate, flexible
What the Guilder is not: sneaky, acrobatic, infliltrating, magical

The two sentences above are why i've always maintained the guilder is its own class, not a prestige or subclass of rogue. How to best implement that vision into 5e is the question. :)

As for "core" abilities, the original (2e) had essentially the following: (1) bonus skills (2) Read Languages (3) any weapon or armor. I think these are well represented in my conversion. What else could it have, either as new or a replacement, i'm not sure. Though not entirely out of place, i've never been super-keen on "Stroke of Luck", but it doesn't occur until 20th, and couldn't think of an alternative when i wrote it. Heh.

-Fizz

Sorontar

06-10-2025, 12:41 PM

Sorontar

06-11-2025, 01:40 PM

So let's take it that the strengths of a 5e 2014 Guilder are its knowledge skillset, its communication and its access to resources. In previous designs this has been reflected in what it is proficient in, its language and writing features, and its access to weapons and armour. For the current 5e Guilder class, this breaks down as follows (ignoring possible subclass or race or background benefits):

Proficiency:
- starts with proficiency at 5 skills
- starts with proficiency at 2 tools
- can choose to be proficient at any skills (18 to chose from)
- gains proficiency in 5 more skills, tools or languages over time (so potentially 10 skills in total)
- gains Expertise in 3 skills over time
- gains Reliable Talent at Lvl 11 on any ability check using a proficiency bonus
- gains Stroke of Luck at Lvl 20 on one ability check per long rest
Communication:
- knows the standard number of languages (2 languages for humans)
- can gain proficiency in 5 more languages (instead of skills or tools)
- gains Decipher Script at Lvl5
Resources:
- can use any simple or martial weapons, and any armour

Let's talk about each of these.

Proficiency
I think this is overkill. The basic Rogue is proficient at 4 skills at most in a restricted set of skills, plus Expertise at 2. The basic Bard is proficient at 3 skills, plus Expertise at 2 plus Jack of All Trades. 10 possible skills for a Guilder is too much. I suggest that the number be lowered. How about:

Start with 4 skills and 2 tools, unrestricted choice
Allow 4 new skills/tools/languages, still unrestricted choice
Allow 2-3 Expertises
Add Jack of all Trades at a low level
Omit Reliable Talent if there are 3 Expertises
Change Stroke of Luck to something more Guilder-skill based

I like the idea of a Guilder being like Samildanach - skilled at lots of things - but it doesn't have to be everything. This is especially true if you add further proficiencies due to race and background and then add proficiencies thanks to a chosen subclass. I am fine with the Guilder still having as many Expertise as a Rogue or Bard and having more proficiencies at tools than them, but having more than twice as many skills as well is too much IMHO. This is not Sneak Attack, such that it has to keep increasing every couple of levels. I much prefer to have a slower increase (like abilities do) and be transformed in its capabilities by other features, like Expertise. Having something like the Bardic Versatility feature may also help.

Communication
The fluff mainly portrays the Guilder as good negotiator. Unfortunately this is rarely how the class is designed. While I like the fact that they may have good language skills (maybe with a bonus extra language proficiency), there is nothing in the base 5e Guilder that reflects their ability to speak the gab and drive a hard bargain/get a good deal. Maybe they need to start with a given proficiency in Persuasion. Another option is to include class features from the Rogue Inquisitive or Mastermind subclasses, but adapt them for Guilder dealmaking.

I am not sure how the ability to interpret anything written in any language (Decipher Script) relates to a Guilder. I think we could think up a better class feature than that which is more Guilder-specific.

Resources
Part of the big problems with a Guilder is that they have nothing special for combat, and a large part of D&D is always the fighting. They don't have to be good at fighting, but they need to have something special to help the team. So far the only benefit they have been given is that they can have access to use any basic Simple or Martial Weapon. I like the concept of a Guilder being able to get what they want and learn how to use it. This is in the 2e Guilder. I think it should be extended to allow a Guilder to have access and use of one exotic weapon (of the DM's approval of course). Sure, no-one else may be using shurikens or an ikakalaka, but of all the classes I can understand a Guilder getting access to one.

The question is whether any other base class features should make more of the Guilders' access to the trading market.

As for other combat benefits, I'll leave that for another post.

Sorontar

Fizz

06-11-2025, 11:07 PM

Proficiency
I think this is overkill. The basic Rogue is proficient at 4 skills at most in a restricted set of skills, plus Expertise at 2. The basic Bard is proficient at 3 skills, plus Expertise at 2 plus Jack of All Trades. 10 possible skills for a Guilder is too much. I suggest that the number be lowered. How about:

Perhaps. I recall doing a quick back-of-hand comparison of nonweapon proficiencies to skill slots and wanted to be sure the Guilder was the best at it. But nonweapon proficiencies and skills work very differently, so my estimate as it pertains to playability could be off.

Start with 4 skills and 2 tools, unrestricted choice
Allow 4 new skills/tools/languages, still unrestricted choice
Allow 2-3 Expertises
Add Jack of all Trades at a low level
Omit Reliable Talent if there are 3 Expertises
Change Stroke of Luck to something more Guilder-skill based

You're suggesting going from a total of 10 skills to 8, yes? Yeah, that's reasonable, especially if we counter with other more unique ideas.

And as i said before, i've not been a fan of Stroke of Luck, so i'm happy if we found something more "guilder-y".

One idea that i've used for my guilder conversion for Castles & Cruades is a Guild Specialty. It grants a +1 bonus on any skill related to the specialty. So for example, if the specialty is arms & armor, the guilder would get a +1 bonus when appraising, evaluating or even crafting such items. For the C&C version, the bonus increases at higher levels. Different specialties might include arts, foodstuffs, gems, etc.

Communication
The fluff mainly portrays the Guilder as good negotiator. Unfortunately this is rarely how the class is designed. While I like the fact that they may have good language skills (maybe with a bonus extra language proficiency), there is nothing in the base 5e Guilder that reflects their ability to speak the gab and drive a hard bargain/get a good deal. Maybe they need to start with a given proficiency in Persuasion. Another option is to include class features from the Rogue Inquisitive or Mastermind subclasses, but adapt them for Guilder dealmaking.

One could read the fluff text not as skilled in negotiation, but as an illustration that they care about maintaining profits long-term. If slaying the orogs every day kept the profits flowing, the guilder would be fine with that too. Negotiation is clearly an option, but it doesn't have to be their go-to manuever. Are they inherently any better at it than anyone else? (Would be a good ability for a sublcass though.)

The fluff example actually reminds me a bit of an example from the 2nd ed Bard class; the Influence Reactions ability, where by telling a joke the bard convinces his captor goblins to not cook him and keep him for entertainment (or somesuch).

Another example is from the Trader class from 2nd Ed Dark Sun, the Dune Trader expansion. They had a Fast Talk ability, which essentially let them convince the target of something, the bigger the con the more difficult the check.

I am not sure how the ability to interpret anything written in any language (Decipher Script) relates to a Guilder. I think we could think up a better class feature than that which is more Guilder-specific.

Yeah, i really wanted to get in the connection to the original Read Languages skill, but 5e doesn't seem to have an equivalent. Hence the ability as i wrote it. Maybe they should just get a new language every few levels? Not sure.

Resources
Part of the big problems with a Guilder is that they have nothing special for combat, and a large part of D&D is always the fighting. They don't have to be good at fighting, but they need to have something special to help the team.

That was one of the issues with 3e onwards i have always had- that all classes had be "equal" in combat. That said, this is a philosophical design issue, and if we're designing for 5e i see your point.

So far the only benefit they have been given is that they can have access to use any basic Simple or Martial Weapon. I like the concept of a Guilder being able to get what they want and learn how to use it. This is in the 2e Guilder. I think it should be extended to allow a Guilder to have access and use of one exotic weapon (of the DM's approval of course). Sure, no-one else may be using shurikens or an ikakalaka, but of all the classes I can understand a Guilder getting access to one.

An exotic weapon might be a good idea. Or what about combat style options? Some 5e conversions include Black Strike as a style (i think), which would be a natural option for a guilder (as most are from Brechtur). (I can't recall all the standard combat styles currently...)

The question is whether any other base class features should make more of the Guilders' access to the trading market.

Some of them are covered by the various subclasses. So yes, the question is whether there is something that should be core to all guilders. Not sure yet.

-Fizz

Sorontar

06-14-2025, 07:44 AM

You're suggesting going from a total of 10 skills to 8, yes? Yeah, that's reasonable, especially if we counter with other more unique ideas.

Yes, that is my idea. Start with your existing structure, and change how often the skills get added. Most base classes are lucky to get 2 skills. My thought is that the Expertise and other skill-based features will be intermittent between them, based on other classes and subclass, like the Rogue and its Mastermind and Inquisitive subclasses, and Bard. This would include looking at when Magical Secrets get added to Bards and adding something like Jack of All Trades for non-proficient skills.

One idea that i've used for my guilder conversion for Castles & Cruades is a Guild Specialty. It grants a +1 bonus on any skill related to the specialty. So for example, if the specialty is arms & armor, the guilder would get a +1 bonus when appraising, evaluating or even crafting such items. For the C&C version, the bonus increases at higher levels. Different specialities might include arts, foodstuffs, gems, etc.

Sound good. It could probably be based on the artisan's tools they are proficient in or the PC's background (which probably gives the proficiency in the tools anyway). An optional expansion could be to include services, like construction, messaging/postal or medical services. Not sure how you would restrict those but it might have to be DM's choice.

One could read the fluff text not as skilled in negotiation, but as an illustration that they care about maintaining profits long-term. If slaying the orogs every day kept the profits flowing, the guilder would be fine with that too. Negotiation is clearly an option, but it doesn't have to be their go-to manuever. Are they inherently any better at it than anyone else? (Would be a good ability for a sublcass though.)

I agree that providing more options might need to be a subclass thing, but perhaps a 5e Guilder should be forced to have at least one of the core Charisma skills (Deception, Intimidation, Performance, Persuasion) at Level 1. How they use it will be up to the player.

Another example is from the Trader class from 2nd Ed Dark Sun, the Dune Trader expansion. They had a Fast Talk ability, which essentially let them convince the target of something, the bigger the con the more difficult the check.

Like making the base Guilder have extra skills, the language capabilities need to be reflected in some of the features for the base Guilder. Some can be achieved through the skills (or languages being chosen instead of skills). Some might be features like one to allow interpreting complex documents like instructions, legal or bureaucratic docs, manuals and blueprints. Others might need to be left for subclasses. We just need to make sure there is something that is 1) special for Guilders 2) not too much that the class is overwhelmed with capabilities.

That was one of the issues with 3e onwards i have always had- that all classes had be "equal" in combat. That said, this is a philosophical design issue, and if we're designing for 5e i see your point.

An exotic weapon might be a good idea. Or what about combat style options? Some 5e conversions include Black Strike as a style (i think), which would be a natural option for a guilder (as most are from Brechtur). (I can't recall all the standard combat styles currently...)

This is the big unknown. I have been thinking about a number of possibilities that might be helpful in combat. I might expand on these in other posts.

Recognising the strategic "value" of things, like whether they are not magical, how much they cost, recognising frauds, which opponent is the most capable in some something (like a Mastermind's Insightful Manipulator or an Inquisitive's eye for Weakness). This could be expanded to recognising traps and flaws and lies.
using everyday/household items in combat, often for *defensive* effects, e.g, canes, hats, cloaks, tankards, belts. This could include a fighting style like Black Strike and other non-item-specific defensive features that allow a Guilder to do things like disarm, entangle, or disable a target.
using products in combat, e.g. food for buffs and other affects but this is basically like being an alchemist (Artificer), tools like cooking pans and rolling pins, mining tools,
the power of names - see http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?29294-Gaming-the-power-of-names&p=94405#post94405

I like the idea of the base Guilder being good at defense and tactics in battle. That is something that each subclass can then expand in different directions, using skills and new features, etc. I would want to have something in the base class though that can be built up every few levels, like the sneak attack, spellcasting levels, combat attacks, etc for other classes. It wouldn't make them good at attacking others, but it might help them survive and make the combat easier for others.

Sorontar

Sorontar

06-20-2025, 12:22 PM

So I have been looking around for how else traders/merchants have been characterised as classes and what unique features they have been given. Here are some of my discoveries.

NPC Expert Sidekick class
(DnD 5e 2014 - TCE)

This is an existing skill-based class. It starts with proficiency of 5 skills, 2 tools, Simple weapons and Light armour at L1. It might be a good alternative starting point for the Guilder other than the Rogue. It has various features at different levels related to helping others or its own proficiencies, like Expertise and Reliable Talent, as well Rogue features that allow it to get out of trouble, like Evasion. Some of the helping features include being able to add to the damage of those they are assisting. None relate to their own combat.

The Merchant Class
(DnD 5e 2014 - DMs Guild, https://www.dmsguild.com/product/251199/The-Merchant-Class (https://www.dmsguild.com/product/251199/The-Merchant-Class) )

This is a Spellcaster-lite class. The core to it is a Merchant's Portable Storefront, which I understand to be a magical storage device like a bag of holding that allows daily access to a fixed inventory of items. The amount of items is defined by a maximum GP value, with some exceptional (read magical) items available on a separate shelf. The items could be flasks like oil, acid or holy water; weapons; general items like rope or ink. It is a really interesting idea, but the reliance on it being a magical item and the Merchant being a caster is not really appropriate to the Guilder. It might be adaptable to the Guilder having to have a link to something in the Shadow World where items are stored but I am not really sure how they could be restocked in a way suitable to Birthright. I don't think the class has anything special for combat as it is described more as a support class, though it does have a few spells.

Dark Sun Dune Trader class
(AD&D 2e - Dark Sun https://adnd2e.fandom.com/wiki/Trader)
(DnD 5e 2014 - DM Dave https://dmdave.com/dark-sun-trader-class-5e/

This was originally released for AD&D 2e but attempts have been made to convert it to 5e. It was designed as a specialist Rogue class, like Thieves, Bards, Ninjas and Assassins. Every level, a 2e Trader gets 20 percentage points to allocate to its rogue abilities (max per skill 10% a level; 80% total). They also get new languages every 3 levels and a Fast-Talk Charisma check (with Int or Wis bonus). At level 10, they can get Agent followers (cf. TABLE_XXII:_TRADER'S_FOLLOWERS (https://adnd2e.fandom.com/wiki/Trader_(DSC)#TABLE_XXII:_TRADER'S_FOLLOWERS)). The 5e Trader is not a conversion or adaption of the 2e Trader - it is a class designed in a similar style, with a focus on being a "skill-based monkey" without being a bard or rogue. It is more similar to the Expert sidekick, with a focus on verbal abilities. It has three subclasses (Diplomat, Menance, Silver-Tongue), each with different ways of getting your way, including using an Agent follower. It also has its own set of Trader Knacks which are a set of special features that a player can choose from every couple of levels depending on what skills they are proficient in. For instance, Combat Medic and Medicine proficiency gives "advantage on Wisdom (Medicine) checks to stabilize a dying creature", but Circumspect and proficiency in Survival and Perception means that "While traveling at a normal pace in the wilderness, you can actively notice threats and perform one of the following activities at the same time: navigate, track, or forage". This class certainly is quite relevant to the Guilder. Some Knacks and features would also help in combat (or help prevent/minimise combat).

CnC Guilder class
(Castles & Crusades - Fizz, http://www.birthright.net/forums/downloads.php?do=file&id=226)

As Fizz has pointed out already, this Guilder class has a feature that allows specialisation bonus when a scenario relates to certain industries. It says "When making attribute checks involving their specialty, the guilder gains a +1 bonus. This bonus increases a further +1 every 4 levels after (5th, 9th, etc)." I am putting this here since it is a good idea. Another feature is the ability to take on some non-magical and non-supernatural features from other classes. This might be hard to convert to 5e, but it is an interesting idea. I am not sure whether it can be made to include Fighting Styles and Extra Attacks and how it can be made to be made level-specific. It might be able to be provided as part of the Ability Score Improvement, instead of a feat.

Any thoughts on adapting any of these for an alternate 5e Guilder? Can you see any of them helping in combat?

Sorontar

Sorontar

06-23-2025, 09:36 AM

So to summarise some of what the previous post suggested:

NPC expert sidekick class and related skill-monkey features
# magical supply box
# have NPC Agents as bodyguards/enforcers, etc.
have Guilder features about collaborating or assisting allies, including in combat
# choose Knacks based on the Guilder's proficiencies
# specialisation bonus for attribute checks
# be able to chose class features from other classes

# = the capability/quantity builds over multiple levels

Time for me to elaborate on some of my additional ideas about what a non-magical, combat-light Guilder class might also have as class features that might help it 1) contribute to combat and encounters 2) relate more to characteristics of the Guilder, like prowess related to wealth, value and resource management.

Evaluating worth
Premise: A Guilder should be good at recognising the worth or value of items, people and circumstances. This is not always the financial value. They also should be able to work out what items, people or circumstances stand out from the others. This knowledge can provide a tactical advantage in an encounter, even in combat.
Example features/capabilities:
• detecting non-magical/ordinary items
• detecting treasure
◦ e.g., most expensive, best quality, best worth
◦ e.g., least of any of the above, detecting a fraud/con, finding traps
◦ e.g., locating an object
• evaluating people
◦ e.g., reading emotions/insight
◦ e.g., detecting lies and truths, including in mannerisms, actions and clothing
◦ e.g., detecting strengths/weaknesses
Possible progression between levels:
• number of uses
• number of targets of interest
• selecting new range of ways to be evaluated
• DC of evaluation decreases/ability increases

Stunt box
Premise: The public image of a Guilder relates to wealth, regardless of whether this true or not. The greed of others can make the Guilder a target. A Guilder should take advantage of this greed by providing others access to a "treasure box" that can be set with a variety of triggers and traps that the Guilder can use to injure, confuse, distract or dissuade their enemy.
Example features/capabilities:
• trapped to explode (fire/electricity/thunder/force damage, deafness/blindness)
• trapped with gas (poison/blindness/hallucination/sleep)
• trapped with weapon (spiked/poison/slice/budgeoning)
• contains what looks like wealth (distract for one round/AoO/emburden)
alternate: toss coins into a 5 foot area
Possible progression between levels:
• success depends on a Wisdom roll by the enemy, affects any enemy within 5 feet of the stunt box
• GP level of the stunt box presented can increase per proficiency bonus, so how attractive it is to higher level creatures increases. For this reason, there is a need to compare GP to the CR level of the opponent to help determine whether DC would increase or decrease.
• At higher levels, the Guilder may be allowed to "stunt" any item by hacking it, but we don't want to make the Guilder into an artificer-light.

Defensive management
Premise: The Guilder is not a fighter, preferring to control the environment, rather than fight it. They are also known for using any resources that may be available in novel ways. Their contacts and travels provide access to markets that provide strange weapons. This has all resulted in a different behaviour in combat to many other classes.
Example features/capabilities:
• defensive fighting actions
◦ e.g., defensive manoeuvres against attacks like parrying, feint, voiding
◦ e.g., defensive movements like pass-by, get behind, side-step
• passive offensive actions
◦ e.g., disarm/disable
◦ e.g., counterattack
◦ e.g., blind/grapple/prone opponent with cloak
◦ e.g., trap/grapple an opponent's weapon with weapon/main-gauche/cloak
• have access and proficiency in the use of one exotic weapon
• use irregular items as weapons to good effect (proficiency to one item or category or all)
◦ clothing, e.g., cane, hat, cloak, belt?
◦ household items, e.g., mug/tankard, rolling pin, frying pan, cooking mallet
Possible progression between levels:
• Offer new defensive actions, like a fighter gets access to fighting styles
• Increase the capability as per normal combat

Again, these are just ideas that might work in isolation or with other ideas. I am very interested in what you all think would work from the perspective of D&D 5e and what you think is appropriate for a Guilder in an adventuring party. You are welcome to suggest any changes/additions.

Sorontar

Fizz

11-06-2025, 07:18 PM

Sorry for my late reply. I got busy with things... and then whenever i tried to connect the server was down... then i was away... and suddenly months had passed. Blah.

Regarding Sorontar's list... my thoughts:

Evaluating Worth:
For objects, it seems like Appraisal does this already, so how would this be different from that skill?
For people, i think that could work In C&C the assassin has the ability of Case Target, which enables the assassin to estimate the level / hit dice (or other important details) of the subject by observing them for a time. I hadn't thought of this for the guilder before since it's often focused on finding tactical information before a kill attempt. But this could potentially be their combat advantage- understanding the enemy.

Stunt Box:
I don't like this one. It seems borderline magical to me. Plus i think the premise is also incorrect. HotGB describes guilders as being representative of the middle class, not the wealthy (that's the nobility). Besides, all adventurers are after treasure, so i don't think the guilder would be any more succeptable to this public persona than any other class.

Defensive Management:
I don't object to the guilder having some combat options, but i don't think it should be anything that a fighter doesn't have. I mean, why could a guilder control the environment more than a fighter or other warrior-type class? They should have just a few more combat options than rogues. I think combat styles would be a good way to do this.
As an aside, how would Black Strike fit into 5e? As most guilders are from Brechtur, this would be a natural style for them, but i am unsure offhand if 5e has something similar already.

After reading the other various related versions and classes, i think there are some good ideas there.

Polyglot (from 5e dune trader link above):
I included Decipher in my version to reflect the Read Languages skill of the original 2nd ed guilder. But the Polyglot could work too, if that's more in the spirit of 5e mechanics. And if one can do this vocally, i see no reason why it couldn't apply to written word as well, so it's connected in spirit to the original.

Diplomat archetype from (5e dune trader):
I like this idea as an archetype, but i don't get the AC bonus or extra attack- what do those have to do with being a diplomat?

Guild Specialty (from my C&C version):
I am actually suprised i didn't include this in my 5e version. I like it because it makes the guilder better at skills (as they should be) but doesn't apply to any specific skill. It puts the "guild" in "guilder". Heh. That said, Expertise does something similar, though it applies to specific skills. So perhaps Expertise should be replaced with Guild Specialty.

I am going to start thinking about how to tweak my own version with some of these ideas... nothing radical, just some tweaks to fix some aspects with which i was never fully satisfied.

-Fizz

Fizz

11-10-2025, 10:42 PM

Sorontar

11-11-2025, 02:35 AM

Going back to defining what a Guilder is, i re-discovered this bit at the end of Part I of HotGB:

The guilder is a rogue sub-sclass that combines talents of a warrior, scout, rogue, and merchant. He uses his skills for adventuring, but turns a profit by exploring new markets for goods, discovering new resources for exploitation, and gathering information and raw materials on his way.

That is the vagueness that is the problem:

What skills do they use for adventuring?
What part of warrior and rogue do they have?
What is a scout in this sense (Birthright has military units as scouts, but they are more like rangers)?
What is a merchant?

The comments about resources, materials, markets/environments and gathering information is what I have been trying to transform into something that is strategically helpful in combat. I see the guilder as someone who understands their opponent better than most classes and can adapt the circumstances to their advantage better than most classes. This isn't just about talking and persuasion - it could be about the terrain, weapon efficiency or suitability, enemy weaknesses, etc. This is the guilder as an efficient resource manager - getting the most out of the least. They don't have to be good at combat themself but they can help make sure everyone else is at their optimal level.

Sorontar

Fizz

11-11-2025, 05:25 AM

That is the vagueness that is the problem:

What skills do they use for adventuring?
What part of warrior and rogue do they have?
What is a scout in this sense (Birthright has military units as scouts, but they are more like rangers)?
What is a merchant?

Yeah, i had missed that line when we started our thread and had been too focused on the class description itself.

Indeed, that is the crux. In 2nd ed terms, their skills are primarily nonweapon proficiencies. So there is a plethora of options that are useful for adventuring. Some might take tracking and survival, others might take navigation and sailing, others might have appraising and gambling. All are useful for adventuring in different ways.

They are part warrior in that they can use any weapon or armor (unlike thieves and bards). They are like a thief / bard in that they can read languages, and in hit points and combat progression.

I think 'scout' is meant in the exploratory sense... off to find if these new lands are rich in resources or trade opportunities. I don't think 'scout' is meant in a military tactical sense.

A 'merchant' is anyone who uses any / all of the above skills to make some money... maybe?

The comments about resources, materials, markets/environments and gathering information is what I have been trying to transform into something that is strategically helpful in combat.

I know it's 5e, but does everything have to be about combat? Do such benefits have be implemented in a combat-centric way?

I see the guilder as someone who understands their opponent better than most classes and can adapt the circumstances to their advantage better than most classes. This isn't just about talking and persuasion - it could be about the terrain, weapon efficiency or suitability, enemy weaknesses, etc. This is the guilder as an efficient resource manager - getting the most out of the least. They don't have to be good at combat themself but they can help make sure everyone else is at their optimal level.

Hrmmm... i agree and disagree in parts. I do like the idea of the guilder being able to read the enemy. They could provide info on the enemy's morale and motivations, etc. But i don't see them making tactical evaluations, such as the battlefield, weapons, logistics, etc. I mean, how does a guilder know more about weapon or battlefield choice than a fighter who's very trade is that? That part doesn't feel right to me. Now maybe a guilder chooses the right skills to learn some of that, but it's not a requirement.

For personal combat, I do like the idea of a combat style, giving them an edge over regular thieves (or rogues in 5e) and bards.

For my part, i have envisioned the guilder in a couple ways. One is the inventor-type, such as DaVinci, MacGyver, or maybe the gnome tinkers from Dragonlance. How they contribute is not always immediately obvious, but they always have a way of coming up with something useful. But another way of thinking of the guilder is the explorer type, such as Marco Polo or any of the great navigators from the age of sail, or a privateer such as Francis Drake.

-Fizz

Sorontar

11-23-2025, 02:54 AM

Sorry, I have been busy with RL as well. It seems that we disagree on whether the Guilder needs a core combat-related feature, so I am thinking that perhaps I should try and work out a combat-focussed subclass/guilder path instead. So far we have

Trader - Good at negotiation and finding value
Delver - Good at finding and recognising secrets and treasures
Explorer - Good at travelling and mapping
Manager - Good at understanding and managing people and resources

My idea is to add a fifth one, based around a guilder being good at stand-over tactics, etc - the Enforcer (I am sure there might be a better term, but I can't think of it). They want to be able to look and sound threatening/intimidating/a challenge to any opposition when adventuring, as well as be able to do something about it. This requires business knowledge (knowing which weakness of the opposition to target), skills at persuasion and deception (coercion/calling their bluff), and good weapon proficiencies/feats/features (doing what "needs to be done"). They are not a fighter, but they should be better at fighting than the Trader subclass.

As a subclass, we have four subclass features to add at the 3rd, 9th, 13th, and 17th levels. I am thinking that we can try to adapt some from the rogue subclasses or make some new ones. However, you have previously said (when you announced this 5E class in http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?28777-Presenting-the-5E-Guilder&p=92275&viewfull=1#post92275 ) "I don't think the Rogue class captures the essence of the Guilder. Rogues are too focused on subterfuge and backstabs, and a guilder does not need to be like that."

At this stage, I am thinking something defensive (maybe about Disengage, ie., a tactical withdrawl/getting out of trouble, rather than being sneaky), something about advantage/disadvantage, something about attack or damage, something that helps/works with team members (it could be allowing someone-else to disengage or get advantage by distracting the opposition).

Fizz, do you have any suggestions? Or is that not a good theme for a Guilder subclass? If so, what would a guilder who is good at fighting mean to you? Anyone else is welcome to join the conversation.

Sorontar