The whole blooded regents thing doesnt really make sense if you think about it

[Question]

I mean, it kind of makes sense for some stuff like casting realm spells or managing source holdings but for ruling a domain...not really.

Just look at IRL. Obviously, none of the rulers IRL have mystical bloodlines and they rule a country just fine.

You shouldn't need a bloodline to setup some kind of police force which translates to a law holding. But per game rules, you do. Something as simple as a law 0 holding, which signifies the foundation for a police/guard system, requires RP (per the original AD&D rules at least). When that can be easily done by just assigning someone to work on it (by recruiting guards, paying them, etc). Nothing about that requires a mystical connection to the land at all, and i dont see how having a mystical connection to the land would somehow improve your guards's ability to police crime, unless your guards automatically gain super powers.

And before people had blood lines, societies had all this stuff...guards, guilds, etc, they didnt need bloodlines to make them work.

So lets say Bob who is an unblooded province ruler hires like 100 guards or something. Does this count as a law holding? Apparently not, because he cant create or rule holdings without spending RP. But they do keep law and order in the town. So what do they count as?

Then lets say Joe, a blooded regent from next door comes in and says he wants to make a level 0 law holding in Bob's province. OK. But how does that even work? Bob could just tell his guards to arrest Joe's people who are trying to setup their own guards. How does Joe spending RP to improve his success chance prevent Bob's guards from just walking into their office and arresting everyone before deporting them? Unless spending RP is using some kind of mind control power to make Bob's guards switch sides, i just don't see how this would work without Joe sending troops in and conquering the province normally.

Actually, from the way things are described, it feels like blooded regents do have some kind of mind control power. Think about it, rule a level 0 temple holding to level 1, and X% of the province now worships your god in your temples within a 3 month period (1 turn). The people in the province dont get to say no.

And with the way blood theft works, it seems like rearing blooded children like cattle for blood theft purposes would be common (especially by the Gorgon). Slave traders would kidnap blooded individuals (not all blooded ones would be powerful nobles with guards) and force them to produce blooded off spring, which would be sold off to people wanting to blood theft them.

[Fizz]

I seem to remember a discussion about this, perhaps not overly long ago. But i can't find it at a quick glance.

If i recall correctly, the consensus (or at least a possibility) is that you don't need to have a divine bloodline to rule a realm. But, having one greatly assists in doing so. Having a bloodline means you can expend regency points to improve the odds of accomplishing tasks. But a character without a bloodline does not gain regency points. Thus, blooded rulers will eventually (quickly) become dominant and non-blooded regents will be very rare.

I'm sure someone else can find the full thread of that discussion.

-Fizz

[Question]

Yea, the problem with the whole regency thing is that it only really works if spending RP = mind controling the populace.

So to setup a law holding, you obviously need people to put the systems in place for it...guards need to be recruited, they need to be paid/equipped/housed, there needs to be a barracks and all that stuff...which means to setup a law holding you need to send people into the province to do all that.

But success rate is not guaranteed to make a holding and you are expected to spend RP to make it succeed. For non-blooded rulers, they cant spend RP, so they just randomly fail when they try to setup a guard system or do anything simple?

And then someone else comes in and wants to make a law holding, how can it even work if their agents are turned away at the border or deported? How does regency somehow make it succeed?

To use a simple example, i might be a blooded character, but there is no way i can setup my own police department in New York because they would just arrest either me or my agents who are trying to recruit my private police force. Unless the RP im spending somehow mind controls the cops to switch sides while also mind controlling everyone who tries to get in my way.

Im also confused at how contesting is supposed to work. If its severing the mystical connection to a holding for a blooded regent, OK...but if its a non-blooded regent, theres no mystical connection to sever, so what are you doing exactly?

[Sorontar]

Any non-blooded person may (by the grace of the DM) become blooded by the Land's Choice. Normally this would be because of the death of someone who is blooded, as an alternate to the heir to bloodline, but I am sure a DM could work out what happens if the land decides that a regent no longer has a strong enough connection to a holding for it to be level N. The DM may decide that the challenge from a non-blooded rival reduced the holding to N-1, but that just might mean that now there is space for a holding 1 (or promotion of another holding), not that the space is filled. You could then play all sorts of methods, like shadow holdings becoming less shadowy, or the non-blooded rival becoming a psuedo-regent that only has financial assets not any political or social regency. Of course, they may have allies who are blooded and prefer a weaker non-blooded leader being in place who can be manipulated easier.

Alternatively, the DM may decide that the land decides that the blooded regent actually loses one or two of their blood points to the rival, making the rival blooded. This would have to be very rare and under exceptional circumstances, but Birthright in the land
of myths and miracles.

Not all of this is necessarily in the Book of Regency or the rulebook (I haven't looked at these aspects for a while), but to me they sound reasonable within the power of the DM.

Sorontar

[Fizz]

Yea, the problem with the whole regency thing is that it only really works if spending RP = mind controling the populace.

I object to calling it "mind controlling". It's all about persuasian through reasoned arguments. Isn't that how modern politics works? Lol.


So to setup a law holding, you obviously need people to put the systems in place for it...guards need to be recruited, they need to be paid/equipped/housed, there needs to be a barracks and all that stuff...which means to setup a law holding you need to send people into the province to do all that.

I don't think a holding has to be anything so formal. Heck a basement lair could be your holding. Or you don't even need a physical locale- i think a holding can be as simple as the underlying structure of the organization.


But success rate is not guaranteed to make a holding and you are expected to spend RP to make it succeed. For non-blooded rulers, they cant spend RP, so they just randomly fail when they try to setup a guard system or do anything simple?

Things are difficult when you don't have the Land's Favor.


And then someone else comes in and wants to make a law holding, how can it even work if their agents are turned away at the border or deported? How does regency somehow make it succeed?

It's like any startup, but usually a large holding only worries about threats to it. There may be dozens of 0-level law holdings in a province, but the dominant one doesn't have enough actions in a domain round to quash them all. And why bother- they can't do much yet. They only worry if they start to grow.


To use a simple example, i might be a blooded character, but there is no way i can setup my own police department in New York because they would just arrest either me or my agents who are trying to recruit my private police force. Unless the RP im spending somehow mind controls the cops to switch sides while also mind controlling everyone who tries to get in my way.

Not a police department, but you could set up a local neighborhood watch, Then maybe that grows into more neighborhoods. That would count as a small law holding, and the police may not care- may even welcome it as it frees up their resources (actions, regency points) for other things.

I'm just spitballing here to illustrate that there are conceivable ways things can happen. Holdings are very broad categories that at their core only represent influence.


Im also confused at how contesting is supposed to work. If its severing the mystical connection to a holding for a blooded regent, OK...but if its a non-blooded regent, theres no mystical connection to sever, so what are you doing exactly?

Contesting doesn't necessarily mean direct conflict in the conventional sense. To "contest" means you are vying for more influence. So if the police decided to quash the neighborhood watch, then they could do so. But they probably have better things to spend their regency and actions. If both holdings are working towards the same goal (say reducing crime), then why would they quash it?

Or maybe the police say you can keep your neighborhood watch, just check with them on things. So they give up the holding in your favor in a classic feudal fashion. If your goal is to ulimately replace the police, that would be a long difficult slog (as it should be).

Again, i think there are lots of ways to justify it, because to "contest" a holding is a broad term that might invovle dozens of events and hundreds of people over a timespan of months, all in the background of the domain turn. I think there is a lot of room for fudging these things. In the end, if you as DM think that this small holding has a fraction of the influence, the owner should have that fraction of the total holdings. If it makes sense for the story, then bypass the rules if need be. :)


-Fizz

[Question]

I object to calling it "mind controlling". It's all about persuasian through reasoned arguments. Isn't that how modern politics works? Lol.



I don't think a holding has to be anything so formal. Heck a basement lair could be your holding. Or you don't even need a physical locale- i think a holding can be as simple as the underlying structure of the organization.



Things are difficult when you don't have the Land's Favor.



-Fizz

The thing is, a guard system needs a lot of systems in place. You need people to recruit, train, pay and equip guards. My understanding is that a level 1 holding in a level 4 province basically means your law covers about 25% of the province. And nobody is going to tolerate somone else coming in and setting up their own law. We are not talking about a neighbourhood watch here but actual guards, armed and armored, going on patrol, arresting criminals, etc. No ruler would be crazy enough to let someone else waltz in to do that, unless they had sworn loyalty to the ruler and am effectively some kind of mercenary force or vassal working for said ruler.

So as i said, thats a lot of work, whats stopping the existing guards from just stopping your agents from setting all that up? Doesnt matter how much RP you spend if your agents are deported before they can do anything.

Why does land's favor even matter here? I am not doing anything with the land, this is all human - human interaction. If i want to hire a carpenter to build me a house, regency is irrelevant. If i want to hire guards, regency should be irrelevant. I am not interacting with the land in any way. Its not like im praying for good harvests or weather or whatever.

As for contests, i see it as cutting off the mystical link to the land, thats why only blooded regents can do it, and why it requires RP. If a non blooded regent wants to shut down a holding, they would have to occupy it with troops i guess, which isnt a contest action.

[Fizz]

The thing is, a guard system needs a lot of systems in place. You need people to recruit, train, pay and equip guards. My understanding is that a level 1 holding in a level 4 province basically means your law covers about 25% of the province.

A level 1 holding in a level 4 province means that you control about 25% of the law. That is- the people responsible for enforcement, etc, ultimately answer to you. But that doesn't mean it's a police force. There are many ways that influence can be exerted.


And nobody is going to tolerate somone else coming in and setting up their own law. We are not talking about a neighbourhood watch here but actual guards, armed and armored, going on patrol, arresting criminals, etc.

I think you are being too literal in what 'law' means. If the watch is stopping crime, through whatever method, then it does count as a law holding- it is affecting the town/city/country, whatever. My neighbourhood watch is one such example. Another example could be a thieves' guild- scaring the populace into submission and preventing the police from ratting on them, etc, so they effectively hold law because the people (willing or not) answer to them.

If you read the definition of law holding: When a law holding is controlled by a regent hostile to the province ruler, that holding represents banditry and direct undermining of the law of the land.


No ruler would be crazy enough to let someone else waltz in to do that, unless they had sworn loyalty to the ruler and am effectively some kind of mercenary force or vassal working for said ruler.

Vassalage is a possibility, but so is just having an ally. A regent gets 3 domain actions, right? So two regents sharing the law have a total of 6 domain actions, so they potentially can get more done in a power-sharing arrangement if their interests are aligned.


So as i said, thats a lot of work, whats stopping the existing guards from just stopping your agents from setting all that up? Doesnt matter how much RP you spend if your agents are deported before they can do anything.

The way you've phrased this doesn't appreciate that all this happens "in the background". In your example, the guards would have to know who the agents are, know that they want to start a holding, then stop them at the border. You can't expect every guard to know who the bad guys are or know their intents. That's not realistic, even in our modern world.

No guard is going to say "hey- those guys are setting up a law holding, i'd best stop that and save my king a domain action". Heh.


Why does land's favor even matter here? I am not doing anything with the land, this is all human - human interaction. If i want to hire a carpenter to build me a house, regency is irrelevant. If i want to hire guards, regency should be irrelevant. I am not interacting with the land in any way. Its not like im praying for good harvests or weather or whatever.

Because a blooded regent has the Land's Favor, regardless of what type of holding it is. The "Land's Favor" is a way of referencing that mystical connection between a regent and their domain, that lets them get things done more effectively.

This is not a human-human interaction. This is a regent-domain interaction. It's not asking someone to build a simple house one day. This is a coordinated task requiring interaction of hundreds of people, over multiple levels of hierarchy, all over the realm, across a long duration of time (months). All this requires coordinated effort from the top, which is represented by domain action plus regency points.


As for contests, i see it as cutting off the mystical link to the land, thats why only blooded regents can do it, and why it requires RP. If a non blooded regent wants to shut down a holding, they would have to occupy it with troops i guess, which isnt a contest action.

I don't see ownership of a holding as mystical in and of itself. The mystical connection assists, but is not a requirement for ownership. So personally, i would allow a non-blooded character to contest against a blooded. It'd just be difficult (depending on the blooded's score, of course).

BTW, note that there are examples of non-blooded regents. The Hand of Azrai is specifically noted as being non-blooded, but does have holdings.

-Fizz

[Sorontar]

As Fizz has been suggesting, there are many things that can contribute towards a holding, especially a low level law holding. Maybe the holding is about a set of mercenary guards that are the favourite within the industries. Maybe there is an insurance company that has been set up and penalises those who increase the risk of its clients. Maybe it is a construction firm who will maintain your roads and walls but gets to charge a toll and maintain customs checkpoints. What about a banking system that the province relies on to tax its population. These may seem to be trade related but if they start to become integral in how a province works, they can end up being vital to the security and operation of the legal bureaucracy of the province. Hence they are part of law holdings. It isn't really about how much of the land they control. It is about how much of the society they relate to.

The second consideration is how they would relate to the regent being blooded or not. They could all be controlled without a blooded regent, but one who has regency is more likely to be able to convince the population that the regent is acting in their best interest, or should be feared enough that cooperation is the best way to go. This can still occur for a non-blooded regent, but a blooded regent can achieve those aims easier because the regency gives them the "right vibe" amongst the population.

Sorontar

[Question]

The way you've phrased this doesn't appreciate that all this happens "in the background". In your example, the guards would have to know who the agents are, know that they want to start a holding, then stop them at the border. You can't expect every guard to know who the bad guys are or know their intents. That's not realistic, even in our modern world.

No guard is going to say "hey- those guys are setting up a law holding, i'd best stop that and save my king a domain action". Heh.

I guess it depends on how they actually do it. So lets say Bob has a level 2 or 3 law holding in a level 4 province. Joe sends some agents, lets assume they set up a level 0 holding and nobody notices. Maybe its a handful of guys hiding in a cave or something.

Then Joe decides to rule his law holding to level 1. Bob is unblooded, so he doesn't get to spend RP to contest it, and is not automatically informed. So Joe wants to recruit enough people to affect 1/4th of the province's law...whether they be private guards, mercs or bandits, you obviously need more people and money involved.

So Joe's agents go out there and starts recruiting guards/mercs/bandits/whatever, bringing in weapons and other supplies, bringing in gold to pay these people, etc. At this point, couldn't Bob's guards notice this, and stop it? Sure, Joe is spending RP to make it succeed, but how does that prevent Bob's guards from doing anything about it?


This is not a human-human interaction. This is a regent-domain interaction. It's not asking someone to build a simple house one day. This is a coordinated task requiring interaction of hundreds of people, over multiple levels of hierarchy, all over the realm, across a long duration of time (months). All this requires coordinated effort from the top, which is represented by domain action plus regency points.


The problem is, for non-magical holdings, this IS a human-human interaction. If i want to recruit 100 guards, i need to assign people to go out there, recruit these people, pay them, equip them, etc. The land is not doing it on my behalf, its all human grunt work. And im having a hard time understanding how the land is helping my agents to do this. I can understand spending RP to forge a stronger magical connection to the land, that much is easy to visualize.

But spending RP to succeed at recruiting guards doesnt make sense, unless its some kind of "luck" thing. Maybe spending RP causes my recruiters to get lucky, and they just happen to find a group of retired mercenaries or adventurers who have contacts and are interested in the job offer. If i dont spend the RP, then maybe my recruiters cant find anyone who qualifies.


I don't see ownership of a holding as mystical in and of itself. The mystical connection assists, but is not a requirement for ownership. So personally, i would allow a non-blooded character to contest against a blooded. It'd just be difficult (depending on the blooded's score, of course).


The original rules dont allow that though, you need to spend RP to contest a holding, and unblooded characters dont have RP. So unblooded characters in the original rules can't do anything except use military force, which requires at least 1 company of soldiers, to go out there and shut down a holding.


BTW, note that there are examples of non-blooded regents. The Hand of Azrai is specifically noted as being non-blooded, but does have holdings.


The way its described, the Hand of Azrai is not really a regent, but merely a "manager". She has blooded priests under her that actually collect the RP from the temple holdings, since she can't collect RP. She's just the overseer put in charge by the Gorgon. And im guessing that most of the time they send all their RP to the Gorgon.

[Fizz]

I guess it depends on how they actually do it. So lets say Bob has a level 2 or 3 law holding in a level 4 province. Joe sends some agents, lets assume they set up a level 0 holding and nobody notices. Maybe its a handful of guys hiding in a cave or something.

Then Joe decides to rule his law holding to level 1. Bob is unblooded, so he doesn't get to spend RP to contest it, and is not automatically informed. So Joe wants to recruit enough people to affect 1/4th of the province's law...whether they be private guards, mercs or bandits, you obviously need more people and money involved.

So Joe's agents go out there and starts recruiting guards/mercs/bandits/whatever, bringing in weapons and other supplies, bringing in gold to pay these people, etc. At this point, couldn't Bob's guards notice this, and stop it? Sure, Joe is spending RP to make it succeed, but how does that prevent Bob's guards from doing anything about it?


Domain levels are only approximate measures. So the process could be occuring over many domain turns. The character might fail, or not even attempt, in raising the holding to level 1, but just because it's still 0 doesn't mean it's not growing influence- just hasn't made it to that ~25% margin yet.

Bob's guards don't know what's going on, just like every police officer on the street doesn't know every criminal they walk past. (If they could, there would never be any crime.) If Joe's agents are working against the law, then they are probably doing it surreptitiously, not out with flyers or bullhorns announcing their intent to every loyal guard of Bob.


The problem is, for non-magical holdings, this IS a human-human interaction. If i want to recruit 100 guards, i need to assign people to go out there, recruit these people, pay them, equip them, etc. The land is not doing it on my behalf, its all human grunt work. And im having a hard time understanding how the land is helping my agents to do this. I can understand spending RP to forge a stronger magical connection to the land, that much is easy to visualize.

By that definition, then you are saying that most domain actions are bunk, because the vast majority of them involve human-human interaction, whether it's espionage or setting up a trade route.

No, each of these is still a regent-domain interaction. It may involve people, but the fact that it involves many people at many different levels of hierarchy is was makes it a domain action. The regent isn't going out on his own and recruiting individuals directly (if he did, that'd be an adventure action, and is resolved separately).

But generally the regent makes his wishes known, he tells his lieutenants, who tells the regional leaders (mayors, perhaps), who inform the sherrifs who actually gets the information to the guards and officers. Most domain actions are like this- they involve people. It's a governmental effort.

Another way of thinking about it: consider domain actions as separate adventures that are being carried out by the underlings of the regent, but in the background. The regent supplies "support" in the form of RP, which can represent many things, whatever you want.


But spending RP to succeed at recruiting guards doesnt make sense, unless its some kind of "luck" thing. Maybe spending RP causes my recruiters to get lucky, and they just happen to find a group of retired mercenaries or adventurers who have contacts and are interested in the job offer. If i dont spend the RP, then maybe my recruiters cant find anyone who qualifies.

No luck is needed. If a regent makes something a top priority, then he spends a lot of RP, representing not only his but his underling's efforts. A few RP spent means the regent is saying "no biggie, let's do if it we can, but not a top priority", versus spending all available RP which says "this is vital to the realm, and if it's not done, heads are going to roll".

And no it's not just about how the regent phrases things, but the allocation of resources, rallying the underlings, following up on events, etc etc. It all happens in the background. Like i said, think of them as background adventures for the npc's.


The original rules dont allow that though, you need to spend RP to contest a holding, and unblooded characters dont have RP. So unblooded characters in the original rules can't do anything except use military force, which requires at least 1 company of soldiers, to go out there and shut down a holding.

Well, i would say they can contest, but they don't have RP to spend. Non-blooded characters don't have the "gravitas", that link to the domain, that makes their efforts so much more effective. So they can make the effort but "spend" 0 RP (just as a regent can choose to spend 0 RP, if they want). So their success depends on whether the regent has any remaining RP to resist their efforts.

Also remember- it's never going to be a simple case of regent vs upstart commoner. The regent is also defending the border from goblin hoards, dealing with trade disputes, trying to forge a peace between others, fighting the corrupt thieves' guild, and trying to prevent a hostile priest from swaying his people to an evil god. In many cases, that's how 0-level holdings succeed- because the regent has to put his energy (RP) towards more serious threats. There is a lot going on when running a domain!


The way its described, the Hand of Azrai is not really a regent, but merely a "manager". She has blooded priests under her that actually collect the RP from the temple holdings, since she can't collect RP. She's just the overseer put in charge by the Gorgon. And im guessing that most of the time they send all their RP to the Gorgon.

But she's the one that makes the decisions- that's why she has the holdings. Note that the description of being a manager is only something that was added to the online wiki- it is not described anywhere in the core material.


-Fizz

[Magian]

Creating a 0 level holding in 2e and the 3e conversion only cost 1GB, no RP is involved with the cost of create holding actions. RP comes into play when supporting or opposing the action and if further down the line a rule action is used. But, the problem of how a non-blooded rules in this domain system is a good question.

My first instinct is to come up with a cost system for domain actions with a sort of RP converted to GB cost to actions. Therefore, I look at the payroll section of the 2e rulebook and find the conversion of 5RP to 1GB value in paying for your military units for maintenance. Then it is simply apply the allowed domain system supports and oppositions to the roll for success. I don't think a non-blooded regent would have RP, obviously. RP is simply put an ability that blooded regents have to help the success of their rule. Beyond that, perhaps there are some other fixes that I haven't considered in this post to make non-blooded realms work. But their ability to support their success is limited to say for example, holding level bonus for rule holding. So, I think a little bit of tweaking can make it work out with not too much effort.

RP does not necessitate mind control. This is stuff of divine power and influence, honor and glory. This stuff is a mover and shaker, motivator and persuader of the masses to follow people that demonstrate having these qualities that are the stuff of great virtue and terrible vice. In this game world it is a stuff that is part of reality and I would dare to say important enough for people to be inspired for many millennia. Take a modern musician who performs a song that stays with someone all their life and takes them back to that day they were young and in a special time. It inspires them to recall fondly of a thing, is that mind control? I doubt it. With the RP it is simply more of that sort of thing more intense and powerful. Like in the Bible there are many instances of things that demonstrate divine things before mortals. There are a great many mortals that oppose those things and are enemies of the divine. Nope no mind control there. One of my favorite movies Excalibur from 1981 is about a version of King Arthur. I believe many of the principles of this movie inspired the rules of this game, that is why I find it relevant. When young Arthur first pulls out the sword from the stone many of the warlords contest and deny his claim to being King. But through his wisdom, honor, and courage he wins his enemies over through an act that stands out to me in battle that even baffles Merlin. The sword of power Excalibur and the bloodline of Pendragon all play into this king's connection to the land, which is one of the mysteries mentioned at the resolution of a key point in the story. Again I don't see mind control.

Much of what you get into further in the post breaks down the domain system itself. It is a set of rules that are an abstraction so that we can have a management system that I believe scales well for the AD&D medieval setting, albeit at some point it becomes cumbersome to handle if you branch out in scope of how much you run in your campaign all at once. It is understandable to want to have an explanation for some things over the course of play for roleplay purposes. However, I don't think it serves us well to get caught up in a mire of over examination of what the abstract is glossing over. The domain system serves its function to provide us with the illusion of being movers and shakers in a fantasy setting. I think it does that well and with our imaginations we can step in and out of that abstraction and detail what we want when we want. So, all the examples you use to describe the domain system are abstracted in the rules already as numbers and how we use those numbers for support or opposition to actions. Clearly the blooded regents have a huge advantage. I think the only real value we'd get from stepping away from the abstract domain system is to flesh out adventures. The domain system in my opinion simplifies the governing structures and interactions of individuals so we don't have to worry about them, unless that is what you want to do.

Divestiture strips a ruler's connection to his/her land, (pg 52 2e Rulebook) not a holding and not a contest action. The rules use terms that are political, legal and relevant to how things operate. Much of the contest action is a legal sort of action. Black's Law dictionary: "To make defense to an adverse claim in a court of law; to oppose, resist, or dispute the case made by a plaintiff." Much of investiture is as well with a little political legitimacy going on there. There is also religious ideas as well with the cleric being involved too. It is there for a light version of medieval flavor I believe. I think it suffices.

[AndrewTall]

I guess it depends on how they actually do it. So lets say Bob has a level 2 or 3 law holding in a level 4 province. Joe sends some agents, lets assume they set up a level 0 holding and nobody notices. Maybe its a handful of guys hiding in a cave or something.

Then Joe decides to rule his law holding to level 1. Bob is unblooded, so he doesn't get to spend RP to contest it, and is not automatically informed. So Joe wants to recruit enough people to affect 1/4th of the province's law...whether they be private guards, mercs or bandits, you obviously need more people and money involved.

So Joe's agents go out there and starts recruiting guards/mercs/bandits/whatever, bringing in weapons and other supplies, bringing in gold to pay these people, etc. At this point, couldn't Bob's guards notice this, and stop it? Sure, Joe is spending RP to make it succeed, but how does that prevent Bob's guards from doing anything about it?

How about this, Joe gives lectures on law to the police explaining that political interference they are getting is unlawful, or gives strong moral speeches and holds rallies that convince judges and police officers that some laws matter more than others - at some point "Bob's guards" are listening more to Joe than to Bob.

Or in BR terms Joe talks to intermediate nobles (baronet's and such like) and persuades them to support him / take advice from him - then their goons are his goons, not Bob's - a change in who controls the law holding with zero recruitment or strife, just a little persuasion.

BR is a feudal system, not a democracy, but people remain people, and every organisation has its factions, internal sub-leaders, etc - I see contesting domains, ruling up/down, etc to be about the switching of allegiances and influence much more than people being killed, migrating in, etc - this is easiest to see in guild domains, but law and temple domains aren't that hard to see either.


The problem is, for non-magical holdings, this IS a human-human interaction. If i want to recruit 100 guards, i need to assign people to go out there, recruit these people, pay them, equip them, etc. The land is not doing it on my behalf, its all human grunt work. And im having a hard time understanding how the land is helping my agents to do this. I can understand spending RP to forge a stronger magical connection to the land, that much is easy to visualize.

Bloodline is basically how divine the character is, spending RP is like spending divine influence, a mixture of luck, how persuasive people sound, how the general populace feels represented by the regent and how much they unconsciously are biased towards them, etc, etc.


But spending RP to succeed at recruiting guards doesnt make sense, unless its some kind of "luck" thing. Maybe spending RP causes my recruiters to get lucky, and they just happen to find a group of retired mercenaries or adventurers who have contacts and are interested in the job offer. If i dont spend the RP, then maybe my recruiters cant find anyone who qualifies.

Maybe spending RP gives a bonus to persuasion/etc rolls and so Joe is able to persuade "Bob's" junior baronet that Joe is the man to listen to and thereby allow Joe to assume control (by influence if not technically by lawful right).



The original rules dont allow that though, you need to spend RP to contest a holding, and unblooded characters dont have RP. So unblooded characters in the original rules can't do anything except use military force, which requires at least 1 company of soldiers, to go out there and shut down a holding.

If the soldiers obey orders - the classic one here is the soldiers listening to the local priest, or an intermediate lord, rather than the ultimate legal authority. But you are right, the unblooded should have some RP mechanically - I take the view that all characters should be able to collect a total based on level, charisma, and then bloodline, and could store a multiple of it - which still gave blooded characters a massive advantage but allowed the mechanics to cover both blooded and unblodded.



The way its described, the Hand of Azrai is not really a regent, but merely a "manager". She has blooded priests under her that actually collect the RP from the temple holdings, since she can't collect RP. She's just the overseer put in charge by the Gorgon. And im guessing that most of the time they send all their RP to the Gorgon.

She should be blooded, and the Gorgon's domain should be entirely run by vassals - the Gorgon is not a micro-manager, he is a "take care of it and pay me my dues - or die" kind of ruler.

[Fizz]

Hand of Azrai ... should be blooded, and the Gorgon's domain should be entirely run by vassals - the Gorgon is not a micro-manager, he is a "take care of it and pay me my dues - or die" kind of ruler.

Mechanical issues aside, personally i like the notion that the Hand of Azrai is not blooded yet has her domain. Sometimes it's the stuff that goes outside the regular rules that makes things intriguing. It makes "how is that possible?" into an adventure hook, rather than just chalking it up to an editing error. But everyone's mileage varies on that sort of thing. :)


-Fizz

[Sorontar]

Just remember that if a non-blooded regent can "buy" RP, then so can a blooded regent.

Sorontar

[Delazar]

The question is also, how did they rule Domains before Deismaar? There were no Bloodlines, so no Regency Points.

I would agree that there must be a way for the un-blooded to rule a domain. The idea mentioned above (X GB = Y RP) is an easy way to solve this, I like it.

It's just easier for scions, because they have two pools of resources (RP and GB) to draw from. Which makes sense to me.

[Fizz]

To account for non-blooded rulers, what if the RP collection rule just be amended so that there is a minimum value? For example, what if all regents, blooded or not, collect a minimum of 1 RP. Or maybe the minimum should be equal to their Charisma modifier (or some other combination from their stats)?

To me, this feels like the most simple solution. Non-blooded rulers can then exert some influence, but will never have the gravitas that an established blooded ruler has.


-Fizz

[Magian]

To account for non-blooded rulers, what if the RP collection rule just be amended so that there is a minimum value? For example, what if all regents, blooded or not, collect a minimum of 1 RP. Or maybe the minimum should be equal to their Charisma modifier (or some other combination from their stats)?

To me, this feels like the most simple solution. Non-blooded rulers can then exert some influence, but will never have the gravitas that an established blooded ruler has.


-Fizz

A more complicated idea though never made anything up, I've mulled over a renown system that works for unblooded characters. Something to the effect of a lesser form of currency like the coin exchanges of the game e.g. 10 renown = 1 regency. Renown system would be linked to adventure rewards maybe tied to how much exp or some other thing like DC for 3e +. Perhaps 100 or 1000 exp = 1 renown, however a person wanted to work it. Regardless of how it is implemented, it would take care of the question by the OP about unblooded regents.

[AndrewTall]

Mechanical issues aside, personally i like the notion that the Hand of Azrai is not blooded yet has her domain. Sometimes it's the stuff that goes outside the regular rules that makes things intriguing. It makes "how is that possible?" into an adventure hook, rather than just chalking it up to an editing error. But everyone's mileage varies on that sort of thing. :)


-Fizz

True, but its a terribly inefficient temple domain if it gains no RP and can't cast realm spells. Maybe she has a scion who is the official ruler, but the Gorgon has placed the Hand in authority over the scion? Then the Hand can spend RP, etc via her lieutenant/vassal and likewise cast realm spells while being unblooded.

But in that case why doesn't she just harvest the bloodline from a goblin scion? The blood of Azrai hs corrupted the hydra, wolf and boar from previously unblooded animals, so she should be able to get a bloodline easily enough.

[Fizz]

True, but its a terribly inefficient temple domain if it gains no RP and can't cast realm spells. Maybe she has a scion who is the official ruler, but the Gorgon has placed the Hand in authority over the scion? Then the Hand can spend RP, etc via her lieutenant/vassal and likewise cast realm spells while being unblooded.

But in that case why doesn't she just harvest the bloodline from a goblin scion? The blood of Azrai hs corrupted the hydra, wolf and boar from previously unblooded animals, so she should be able to get a bloodline easily enough.

That is the hypothesis that is on the wiki, as i recall- several under-priests that with low blood scores that do the work. Ruins of Empire say that the Hand of Azrai must not be blooded, because if she were the Gorgon would have slain her for her bloodline a long time ago. So would not the Hand's vassals / lieutenants suffer the same fate?

So is there another mechanism by which she could gain RP? Has perhaps the Gorgon found a way to pass RP to a non-blooded priest for them to cast realm-spells? That way, the Gorgon gains the benefit of priestly realm spells, but without the risk of a potential rival. Since the Gorgon controls the RP the Hand receives, she can be quickly neutralized. That's a good deal for the Gorgon.


-Fizz

[Fizz]

Another hypothesis to explain the Hand of Azrai...

Some post-Deismaar artifacts grant bloodline strength points. In particular, the sielshegh gems described in The Book of Magecraft grants bloodline points. Strictly speaking, they only work for scions. So perhaps the Hand actually has a tainted bloodline with a minimal score, but is in possession of one or more sielshegh gems or an artifact comprised of such, giving her a sufficient score to cast some serious priestly realm magic.

Or perhaps there is another artifact that effectively grants a bloodline to a non-scion, and in conjuction with some sielshegh gems, makes her a potent realm spellcaster. In other words, maybe the Hand of Azrai isn't anything special herself, but she owns some potent items, which she is allowed to keep (with her life) so long as she serves The Gorgon.

Personally, I like these options more than the under-priests concept. That'd make a great adventure- hurting the Gorgon by relieving the Hand of her artifacts... epic stuff.

-Fizz

[AndrewTall]

... Ruins of Empire say that the Hand of Azrai must not be blooded, because if she were the Gorgon would have slain her for her bloodline a long time ago. So would not the Hand's vassals / lieutenants suffer the same fate?

...
-Fizz

To me that should be taken as Anuirean progaganda - the great evil cannot posibly be like a normal noble who has vassals, etc, he must instead be a demon who devours all :)

I note that the write ups of Markazor, Mur-kilad, Kiergard, and even the Crown have blooded underlings of the Gorgon, as does Blood Enemies from recollection (the living hoard?) so he clearly doesn't kill every scion in reach.

Depending on which write-up of the Gorgon you use (card in the boxset or Blood enemies) he would also need a wizard for his sources.

I would have the Gorgon have a similar mindset now as when he was young, a feudal one, that way he has lots of vassals, meaning that when PC's/whoever are competing with "the gorgon" they are actually dealing with flunkies of some sort - otherwise everyone is terrified of doing anything to oppose "the Gorgon", whereas with layers of vassals they can act relatively normally, and meanwhile the vassals can undermine each other, etc to win favour/etc with the Gorgon in the best traditions of evil empires creating play opportunities for PC's.

I admit though that I have the Gorgon see himself as Emperor of Anuire, complete with a lavish court, etc, to which on occasion it might be possible for players to interact safely (so long as they pass their ancient andu etiquette checks), so I had one of his vassal lieutenants be a knight descended from his ancient Andu followers and so on, which will not be to everyone's taste.

[Fizz]

To me that should be taken as Anuirean progaganda - the great evil cannot posibly be like a normal noble who has vassals, etc, he must instead be a demon who devours all :)


I've never thought of it that way before. It's stated in the domain info block in Ruins of Empire, so i have always read it as a "rule" rather than propoganda (ie, it doesn't read like Blood Enemies or Atlas. Your take does put a different spin on things.


I note that the write ups of Markazor, Mur-kilad, Kiergard, and even the Crown have blooded underlings of the Gorgon, as does Blood Enemies from recollection (the living hoard?) so he clearly doesn't kill every scion in reach.

True, but those underlings are in other realms: they hold no domains in the Gorgon's Crown itself, unlike the Hand. That may make a difference.


Depending on which write-up of the Gorgon you use (card in the boxset or Blood enemies) he would also need a wizard for his sources.

Hrmmm... to what difference are you referring? The box set card specifically lists the Gorgon as Fighter 25 / Wizard 16, while Blood Enemies makes no mention of class at all. But both refer to his sources, so he must be a capable wizard in either version to control the sources, no? So i don't see a contradiction, unless i'm missing something.


I admit though that I have the Gorgon see himself as Emperor of Anuire, complete with a lavish court, etc, to which on occasion it might be possible for players to interact safely (so long as they pass their ancient andu etiquette checks), so I had one of his vassal lieutenants be a knight descended from his ancient Andu followers and so on, which will not be to everyone's taste.

I see him the same way. He sees himself as the rightful ruler of Anuire if not all Cerilia, and would want the trappings of such. He does not live in a dim castle dungeon but a highly ornate (though well-fortifired) palace, possibly the most magnificent in all Cerilia. He would also have a feudal bureaucracy and accept blooded underlings to do their jobs. In many ways, he would act as other regents do.

I recall the Atlas of Cerilia, written by Calidhe Dosiere, which refers to an encounter he had with the Gorgon as part of a diplomatic mission. One member of their party was slain by the Gogron for a poor choice of words, but the rest were allowed to leave. So no, he doesn't slay every bloodline on sight.

But the Hand of Azrai is unique in that she is the only one with holdings inside the Gorgon's Crown. That may be (or could be) a key factor here. The Gorgon has no priestlly levels himself, so he needs someone for priest realm spells. So would having a blooded being in such close proximity all the time be acceptable to him? If not, is she aided by a relic or sielshegh stones, or something else? Or is her non-blooded nature just a typo? Ymmv. Heh.

I can see if from multiple angles, so i don't think any interpretation / solution is "wrong". The mystery is part of the fun. :)

-Fizz

[Magian]

Hrmmm... to what difference are you referring? The box set card specifically lists the Gorgon as Fighter 25 / Wizard 16, while Blood Enemies makes no mention of class at all. But both refer to his sources, so he must be a capable wizard in either version to control the sources, no? So i don't see a contradiction, unless i'm missing something.

In past discussions there were at least two takes on the Gorgon as him being a single class 25 fighter or multi-class/dual classed 25 fighter / 16 wizard. (from memory so I may have something wrong)

I was always on the side of the fighter/wizard for the same reasons you mentioned. However, some are adamant about him being a fighter only. So, I approach the topic like Andrew, giving leeway for both.


Regarding Prince Raesene's rule, I agree it should be archaic, as evidenced with this realm's economic demonstration of no guild holdings. But that is just a personal take. Could be an interesting campaign to modernize his economy by bringing him into the mercantilist market system. Could establish a Cerilian Trade Organization CTO for short.

Bringing Raesene into the CTO and normalizing trade will strengthen those who fight for the environment, for labor standards, for human rights, for the rule of law.

For Raesene, this agreement will clearly increase the benefits of cooperation and the costs of confrontation.

Anuire, of course, will continue to defend our interests, but at this stage in Raesene's development we will have more positive influence with an outstretched hand than with a clenched fist.

[AndrewTall]

Hrmmm... to what difference are you referring? The box set card specifically lists the Gorgon as Fighter 25 / Wizard 16, while Blood Enemies makes no mention of class at all. But both refer to his sources, so he must be a capable wizard in either version to control the sources, no? So i don't see a contradiction, unless i'm missing something.
-Fizz

Blood enemies mentions him saving as a F25, and has him as specialised in every weapon and wearing full plate, but otherwise doesn't mention class/class abilities, what it also doesn't mention is any magical ability - no special attack "spells" or reference to caster level. In fairness the Chimera has special attack "spells" and is described as a wizardess but no reference to level or actual spells, but the Hag gets a proper spell list, as do the Harpy, Magian, Raven, Rhoubhe, Serpent, Sphinx, and White Witch making the lack of reference in the Gorgon write-up stand out.

Which is inconsistent with the card in the box set that clearly states that the Gorgon has wizard levels of course, not necessarily with him holding sources, but certainly with hm having much interest in doing so.

In my mind it is counter-productive to have the Gorgon as a wizard, making him have sources held through various vassal wizards makes it a lot easier to get conflict in gameplay (who wants to contest the Gorgon's holding?) and similarly having the Gorgon hold almost all holdings through (potentially competing) vassals means that the Crown can be used in game play as various vassals make a play for this or that, possibly while being set-up to fail by a competitor, and the PC's are left able to fight the vassals without directly challenging the Gorgon - as long as the PC's don't get too cocky of course.

[Fizz]

Blood enemies mentions him saving as a F25, and has him as specialised in every weapon and wearing full plate,

True, though the rules are a bit different for a 1500 year-old extraordinary creature.


but otherwise doesn't mention class/class abilities, what it also doesn't mention is any magical ability - no special attack "spells" or reference to caster level. but the Hag gets a proper spell list, as do the Harpy, Magian, Raven, Rhoubhe, Serpent, Sphinx, and White Witch making the lack of reference in the Gorgon write-up stand out.

So the question is, was it deliberately done that way, or are they just missed edits from Blood Enemies?

One could reconcile this by saying Gorgon doesn't use spells for personal combat- he always fights as a warrior against individuals, thus wouldn't belong in the stat block. And that his wizardly abilities are reserved only for Realm magic. I think that'd be consistent with his personality, especially as he is a fan of bloodtheft- can't steal blood by killing your enemies with spells.


Which is inconsistent with the card in the box set that clearly states that the Gorgon has wizard levels of course, not necessarily with him holding sources, but certainly with hm having much interest in doing so.

Can one hold a source without wizardly levels? So if the Gorgon is not a wizard, then he holds the sources for what purpose; just to prevent others from using them?


In my mind it is counter-productive to have the Gorgon as a wizard, making him have sources held through various vassal wizards makes it a lot easier to get conflict in gameplay (who wants to contest the Gorgon's holding?) and similarly having the Gorgon hold almost all holdings through (potentially competing) vassals means that the Crown can be used in game play as various vassals make a play for this or that, possibly while being set-up to fail by a competitor, and the PC's are left able to fight the vassals without directly challenging the Gorgon - as long as the PC's don't get too cocky of course.

I can see how a dedicated wizard (or wizards) beholden to the Gorgon has appeal for gameplay possibilities. He does see himself as the rightful ruler of Cerilia, but does he still believe in feudalism, accepting lesser ruler beholden to him, or does he want absolute control at every level? It's difficult to tell from Markazor and Mur-Kilad, as the distribution of holdings is not specified, only that the Gorgon has absolute control over the military.


-Fizz