Advancing the Timeline

[UVAtom]

If you were to advance the timeline of the setting, how far would you jump ahead? I’ve been thinking of going through the campaign supplements and updating the state of things on each domain, or at least region, based on the adventure hooks that are provided in each realm entry. Obviously this would be my personal opinion on the likelihood of possible futures, but I’m curious how far others would advance it, given the chance.

[masterdaorin]

I've advanced Anuire 26 years into the future. I'm currently working on the other four areas to match.

An entire generation has played through, and their kids began the next "chapter"...

[acamon]

I've advanced Anuire 26 years into the future. I'm currently working on the other four areas to match.

An entire generation has played through, and their kids began the next "chapter"...

Yeah, I think that's a good step forward. Although I love the original setting, I sometimes feel it is too carefully balanced. It's definitely the right choice for the general setting, as whereever you set your campaign there's hooks and tensions. But I am often tempted to let some of those tensions resolve and shake stuff up.

When I've considered it, I've usually imagined ten or so years forward, with Avanil now in open war with Ghoere, Boeruine fallen to the Manslayer's elves and stuff like that.

I'd love to hear some of your ideas for the 26 yest jump if you're willing to share? What's changed? What are the new rivalries and opportunities?

[masterdaorin]

I'd love to hear some of your ideas for the 26 yest jump if you're willing to share? What's changed? What are the new rivalries and opportunities?

Well, that would be a LONG post. :)

It might be better if I offered tips, such as on any ideas you may have.

For example, I find that D&D could be so much more, but the generic setting often falls short. BR comes close, but even it holds to the generic ideas of D&D too much, IMO.

By that, I mean family and dynasty should hold front and center stage in your campaigns. Family should matter a great deal to most, if not all, the PCs. Marriage should be an early ambition. Having children should be a central focus, which generates all kinds of plot hooks and adventure ideas. You don't need any more focus than that, really. I bet you could play a whole campaign on that as your central focus. Death should also always be an ever-present threat, lurking in the background...

I also think that the setting doesn't do enough to showcase the awnsheghlien - again, the generic BR rules hold to the MM way of thinking, but I think that that would do a disservice to your campaign to play it like any other D&D campaign.

By that, I mean you don't really need all those monsters. The awnsheghlien, singly, are enough of an antagonist for your game that you don't really need many other types of villains, really. Besides the "generic" goblins, orogs, and gnolls, I don't introduce too many other "monsters" into my adventures, except as "regional" variances to the norm. For example, lizardfolk are only found around the Bay of Coeranys.

I like to stress the dark side of the setting. Going with the above, monsters are REAL, and thus terrifying to any right-thinking normal person in this world. That is why I like the idea of the awnsheghlien - it points to the need for that type of Brothers Grimm idea of approaching your campaign's or adventure's main adversaries.

All a campaign really needs is one monster. A troll, for example. This troll might be the pawn of some greater evil, perhaps - a mother? A wizard? That's it. You might have an entire campaign with just that.

Magic is also rare - and deservedly so, and thus terrifying to any right-thinking normal person of this world; even in regards to divine spellcasters. I like to evoke that feeling. The PC magic-wielders are the exception to the norm. Thus, if your priest of starts throwing flame strike around, for example, people don't go "oh, this is a divine spell, so it's "okay" magic." No, they think this person has sold their soul to the Nightwalker for this diabolical power, and this person is a witch and should be burned at the stake. Spellcasters IMC must earn their reputation - and must cultivate one that allows them to live beyond their first open use of any overt spells.

And since reputation is so important, so too should politics play a central role within your campaign. That's where the true monsters come into play - your fellow humans (and/or elves, dwarves, etc.). Never forget that the simplest motivations make the best stories. Greed has probably been the most effective agent of change in human history.

Towards that end, I dismiss the political correctness and efforts of sanitation that has so gripped the D&D (and other RPG) games in the recent decades. While I understand the mentality behind it all, I also believe it limits the types of games a group can experience when they don't hold to the source material.

Therefore, racism, sexism, and all the other distressing practices of our ancestry takes its place in this game that professes to recreate historic similarities to certain ideas - in the background, of course (meaning I don't go too overboard, of course). You cannot have feudalism, in other words, without the trappings that go along with it. I therefore like to add a bit of realism in my fantasy games; I feel it adds to the mood and setting that I am trying to create and evoke. Players behave differently, naturally, when they know that their "elf" friend is going to be harassed at every turn. This is also helps to evoke the BR setting.

[Magnus Argent]

Well, that would be a LONG post. :)

It might be better if I offered tips, such as on any ideas you may have.

For example, I find that D&D could be so much more, but the generic setting often falls short. BR comes close, but even it holds to the generic ideas of D&D too much, IMO.

D&D *is* more. We're up to the 5th edition. ;)


I also think that the setting doesn't do enough to showcase the awnsheghlien - again, the generic BR rules hold to the MM way of thinking, but I think that that would do a disservice to your campaign to play it like any other D&D campaign.

By that, I mean you don't really need all those monsters. The awnsheghlien, singly, are enough of an antagonist for your game that you don't really need many other types of villains, really. Besides the "generic" goblins, orogs, and gnolls, I don't introduce too many other "monsters" into my adventures, except as "regional" variances to the norm. For example, lizardfolk are only found around the Bay of Coeranys.

Cerilian Goblins, Orogs, and Gnolls are difficult to classify as "monsters", per se, given each of these species have at least scraped together enough civilization to have created their own realms. And, given D&D's emphasis on combat, I'm not sure it is practical to restrict monsters. Combat isn't the only way to gain experience points in D&D but it is certainly the best way for Barbarians, Fighters, Paladins, and Rangers to shine. There are plenty of humans, elves, goblins, dwarves, and halflings to kill but killing monsters is how adventurers gain their reputations.

Perhaps instead of restricting monsters, one might instead align certain creatures with an Awnshelien? Lizardmen with the Hydra, spiders, driders, goblins, dolgrim with The Spider. Drow with Rhoubhe. Hags with.. well, the Hag. You get the idea. Just a thought.


I like to stress the dark side of the setting. Going with the above, monsters are REAL, and thus terrifying to any right-thinking normal person in this world. That is why I like the idea of the awnsheghlien - it points to the need for that type of Brothers Grimm idea of approaching your campaign's or adventure's main adversaries.

Sounds like fun. Personally, I prefer to be flexible so I can customize a campaign based on players' preferences. Also, I'd be careful around the concept of any "right-thinking normal person" in this (or any) world. Not everyone thinks like you. That doesn't automatically make them wrong or wrong-minded.


Magic is also rare - and deservedly so, and thus terrifying to any right-thinking normal person of this world; even in regards to divine spellcasters. I like to evoke that feeling. The PC magic-wielders are the exception to the norm. Thus, if your priest of starts throwing flame strike around, for example, people don't go "oh, this is a divine spell, so it's "okay" magic." No, they think this person has sold their soul to the Nightwalker for this diabolical power, and this person is a witch and should be burned at the stake. Spellcasters IMC must earn their reputation - and must cultivate one that allows them to live beyond their first open use of any overt spells.

Diamonds are rare. I don't know anyone who is afraid of a diamond.

You're not alone in your interpretation but I've never understood the need to deviate from the source material that pretty explicitly details each culture's unique view of the arcane arts. That's why, in my campaigns, arcane magic makes most Rjuven very uneasy, the Vos outright fear and hate arcane magic, the Khinasi view the practice of arcane magic as the highest of callings and wizards are given much respect, Brecht see magic (and mages) as a tools, and Anuirians slightly fear wizards because of their power but are given respect because wizards are generally noble-born.

I DO like the notion of characters needing to cultivate their reputations but why require this only of spellcasters? If wizards need to worry about what the rabble thinks about their spells, why don't warriors need to worry about what the rabble things about their swords?


Therefore, racism, sexism, and all the other distressing practices of our ancestry takes its place in this game that professes to recreate historic similarities to certain ideas - in the background, of course (meaning I don't go too overboard, of course). You cannot have feudalism, in other words, without the trappings that go along with it. I therefore like to add a bit of realism in my fantasy games; I feel it adds to the mood and setting that I am trying to create and evoke. Players behave differently, naturally, when they know that their "elf" friend is going to be harassed at every turn. This is also helps to evoke the BR setting.

I'm not sure you're doing the Birthright setting any favors by calling it inherently racist and sexist. It certainly doesn't have to be. Racism and sexism do exist in my campaigns but I generally restrict them to realms such as Alamie, Brosengae, Ghoere, Rhoubhe, Osoerde and other domains officially classified as being evil.

I understand the importance of staying true to the setting. The problem is, if you stay 100% true to the setting, as written, you deprive it of all of the design improvements that have come about since its publishing. There's a reason why 5th edition is the most widely-played edition, ever.

Of course, on the flip side.. how many changes can you make to the setting before it loses what makes it unique? It's a fine line to walk, for sure.

I may not personally agree with all of your choices but I respect the time and thought you put into it and I do believe those who share your views of Cerilia will find your tips very helpful.

[Magnus Argent]

If you were to advance the timeline of the setting, how far would you jump ahead? I’ve been thinking of going through the campaign supplements and updating the state of things on each domain, or at least region, based on the adventure hooks that are provided in each realm entry. Obviously this would be my personal opinion on the likelihood of possible futures, but I’m curious how far others would advance it, given the chance.

My advice is, if you are going to advance the timeline, do so with purpose.

For example, say you want to run a campaign centered on the peaceful reunification of Medoere and Diemed. If you decide that Hierl Diem is too intent on regaining his lost provinces through military conquest, you may want to advance the timeline to the point where he dies and his daughter Lasica ascends to take his place. Lasica is a wizard and could be more open-minded about diplomatic options with the priests of Ruornil.

Of course, you'd need decide else has changed during your Fast Forward but, since you know your campaign will have a reunification theme, you can tailor the other changes to cater to your campaigns specific needs.

Alternately, don't be afraid to advance the campaign timeline through the course of game play. I'm in the process of writing a new Birthright adventure that is designed to take place over the course of six years of game-time.

[masterdaorin]

Cerilian Goblins, Orogs, and Gnolls are difficult to classify as "monsters", per se, given each of these species have at least scraped together enough civilization to have created their own realms. And, given D&D's emphasis on combat, I'm not sure it is practical to restrict monsters. Combat isn't the only way to gain experience points in D&D but it is certainly the best way for Barbarians, Fighters, Paladins, and Rangers to shine. There are plenty of humans, elves, goblins, dwarves, and halflings to kill but killing monsters is how adventurers gain their reputations.

Perhaps instead of restricting monsters, one might instead align certain creatures with an Awnshelien? Lizardmen with the Hydra, spiders, driders, goblins, dolgrim with The Spider. Drow with Rhoubhe. Hags with.. well, the Hag. You get the idea. Just a thought.

Well, isn't that the point - seeing a gnoll or a goblin as not a monster illustrates my point that these creatures have become "mundane" in D&D?

They should be seen as monsters - because they are. And scary ones at that. But veteran D&D players don't seem to have the appropriate response when confronting them, from what I've experienced.

The mystique and the magic is gone. And that's a pity. I've tried to figure out why - and my answer has boiled down to atmosphere and story factors.

That is what I have tried to do in regards to the awnsheghlien and monsters - loosely have those monsters that are most similar to the awnsheghlien that they resemble to be found the majority around them. Not all monsters, of course - just when it makes sense.



Sounds like fun. Personally, I prefer to be flexible so I can customize a campaign based on players' preferences. Also, I'd be careful around the concept of any "right-thinking normal person" in this (or any) world. Not everyone thinks like you. That doesn't automatically make them wrong or wrong-minded.

Yes, of course, find the players first, and then tailor the campaign to them.

My above-mentioned dynastic campaign does stray back to a rather more traditional D&D mindset, mostly because of the scale of my ambitions (advance the timeline of the whole continent). But I find that the above noted factors work for a more mature gaming group, who want a slightly different D&D game experience.

I find a balance of adventure stories the best mix, with an emphasis on mystery solving and fact finding adventures to begin the story, then more combat focus at the climax of the campaign.



Diamonds are rare. I don't know anyone who is afraid of a diamond.

Uh-huh. Diamonds usually don't melt your brain or turn you into a toad, however.


You're not alone in your interpretation but I've never understood the need to deviate from the source material that pretty explicitly details each culture's unique view of the arcane arts. That's why, in my campaigns, arcane magic makes most Rjuven very uneasy, the Vos outright fear and hate arcane magic, the Khinasi view the practice of arcane magic as the highest of callings and wizards are given much respect, Brecht see magic (and mages) as a tools, and Anuirians slightly fear wizards because of their power but are given respect because wizards are generally noble-born.

I DO like the notion of characters needing to cultivate their reputations but why require this only of spellcasters? If wizards need to worry about what the rabble thinks about their spells, why don't warriors need to worry about what the rabble things about their swords?

I do follow the source material. I just find that the source material makes it far too basic generic D&D at the expense of what was just said to add flavor to the setting.

So, yes, Khinasi respect mages, and is the sole culture where magic can be practiced (relatively) openly. That doesn't give mages a carte-blanche - even in Khinasi society. The simple fact is that vast majority can't do that (use magic) - and that scares people, even if it is acceptable.

What happens when you add fear to the mix? Some people go off the rails...

People are going to greatly respect them of course, because they are like a firearm - they can go off in the wrong hands, resulting in grave consequences.

There is a reason why the Five Oaths exist in the Khinasi lands...

The other cultures don't have that. Hence, the reaction of the general population to mages is the way it is in each culture.

The Royal College fulfills a similar function, and points to the Anuirean mindset, for example...

As for your second point, duh, of course everyone has to cultivate their reputations; it's vitally important in this type of feudal setting. Magic-users were illustrated merely as an example.



I'm not sure you're doing the Birthright setting any favors by calling it inherently racist and sexist. It certainly doesn't have to be. Racism and sexism do exist in my campaigns but I generally restrict them to realms such as Alamie, Brosengae, Ghoere, Rhoubhe, Osoerde and other domains officially classified as being evil.


I never said that BR was inherently racist or sexist. Quite the opposite, in fact.

I said that it should be, if you might want a darker, grittier, more authentic feudal setting.

Why say elves hate humans (and vice versa), for example, and not illustrate that in your game?

There is a reason why elves have that reputation - all I'm saying is, use that to your advantage in your campaign. Don't follow the Tolkien-esque adherence that the D&D cleaves to throughout every edition - be brave and try something different for a change.

Naturally, it goes without saying that your gaming style must follow the specifics of your gaming group and their sensibilities.

I'm most certainly not promoting this style of gaming for a group of immature tween-agers, for example...

[masterdaorin]

If anyone wants specifics on what I've done, by all means ask away! I'm quite happy to share.

I could babble on for hours and hours about my favorite setting - BR!

I find it more productive for people to ask for feedback, and I can provide my own suggestions toward their specific ideas and thoughts, however.

[Magnus Argent]

Well, isn't that the point - seeing a gnoll or a goblin as not a monster illustrates my point that these creatures have become "mundane" in D&D?

I don't know what you mean by "mundane D&D". I am basing my opinions on the Birthright Campaign Setting which, yes, follows the D&D ruleset. Other settings don't have domain-level gameplay and my point about goblins and gnolls is that both races are civilized enough to have created something at least resembling their own realms.

Birthright is pretty clear with its definitions such as Human, Demi-Human, and Humanoid -- none of which are considered monsters.


They should be seen as monsters - because they are. And scary ones at that. But veteran D&D players don't seem to have the appropriate response when confronting them, from what I've experienced.

The mystique and the magic is gone. And that's a pity. I've tried to figure out why - and my answer has boiled down to atmosphere and story factors.

And by 'appropriate response", I take it you mean they don't respond as you would if you were in their shoes. I did warn you that not everyone thinks like you. People respond how they respond. If they don't respond how you expected them to, maybe you should reevaluate your expectations.


Uh-huh. Diamonds usually don't melt your brain or turn you into a toad, however.

I quite enjoy playing wizard characters. I don't recall casting any Melt Brain spells or polymorphing anyone into a toad. Ever. Why would I? I did polymorph someone into a kangaroo once. But that's a story for another time.

Sure, magic can do some pretty nasty stuff. Blades can do some pretty gruesome things, too.


So, yes, Khinasi respect mages, and is the sole culture where magic can be practiced (relatively) openly. That doesn't give mages a carte-blanche - even in Khinasi society. The simple fact is that vast majority can't do that (use magic) - and that scares people, even if it is acceptable.

It's comments like this that demand criticism.

It would be one thing if you simply said, "This is how I run my version of Cerilia. It deviates from the source material a bit but this is how and what and why I do what I do.." I could respect that.

But when people make assertions based on their own personal assumptions that are clearly biased and then respond to someone asking a question about the setting, presenting their opinions as 'facts', it would be a disservice to the OP to remain silent.

But I've said my piece. I don't want to make this an ongoing 'thing'. I simply wanted people reading this thread to be aware that some of the information here might be considered "alternative facts". I leave it to them to determine what's what.

[masterdaorin]

I'd love to hear some of your ideas for the 26 yest jump if you're willing to share? What's changed? What are the new rivalries and opportunities?

As noted above, someone asked me for my ideas on my BR setting that I was willing to share. I gave some of my background material for them as ideas for them to consider.

What makes you think I was doing anything else?


I therefore like to add a bit of realism in my fantasy games; I feel it adds to the mood and setting that I am trying to create and evoke

Consider that line. You conveniently seem to gloss over references such as that in my posts to fit your attempts at criticism - because you don't like how I play my game?

How is my above statement any different from: "This is how I run my version of Cerilia..."

[Osprey]

I DO like the notion of characters needing to cultivate their reputations but why require this only of spellcasters? If wizards need to worry about what the rabble thinks about their spells, why don't warriors need to worry about what the rabble things about their swords?

While I don't quite hold with masterdaorin's 'fear all magic if you're normal' version of Cerilia, I have run into multiple instances in my own campaigns where fear and uncertainty are pretty rational reactions to magic use - particularly as PC spellcasters get higher level, and higher-level NPC casters also come into focus.

The most blatant form this takes is "Magic as a Weapon of Mass Destruction."
In my (Pathfinder) campaign, the PCs eventually reached 17th level and above. This included 2 Clerics of Cuiraecen as well as an elven Wizard, but it turns out that in 3e clerics at the highest levels are actually more powerful army killers than wizards (defying all the common stereotypes) due to a single 9th level spell: Storm of Vengeance. This spell has a 360' radius (and this can be doubled with a metamagic rod of Greater Widen Spell, which doubles the radius to 720'!).

A 2nd 9th level spell is Gate: which allows the caster to summon an outsider with up to twice the caster's level in HD. The cleric of Cuiraecen could thus summon a Solar (whose hit dice can be anywhere from 20 to 50 or more, depending how advanced they are, each with spellcasting powers of a high level cleric themselves - including storm of vengeance!).

Long story short: The Militant Order's 2 arch-clerics and the 2 Solar archangels they summoned could together conjure 4 Storms of Vengeance at once - allowing them to engulf and kill almost the entire 12,000-strong army of Ghoere invading Mhoried (encamped in a palisaded camp, and thus unable to quickly escape) in less than 30 seconds.

So as a DM I started talking about the rippling waves of consequence as news spread:
Magic like this completely shuts down regular warfare with mundane troops, and its actual use upon the battlefield - much like the use of atomic bombs in WWII - completely changes warfare forever in Cerilia.

It also deeply divided public opinion about the MoC: on the one hand, any who already disliked them now had ammunition to fan the flames of fear and paint the Stormlord (the MoC paladin regent and liege of the 2 clerics who were his Lts) as an arch-villain and mass murderer, honorless and utterly undeserving of Cuiraecen's favor.

On the other hand, a Mhoried zealot claimed to have visions from Cuiraecen. The man, a middle-aged farmer whose lands were pillaged and family abused by the invading Ghoereans - preached that the Stormlord was the ultimate Champion of Cuiraecen, chosen by the Stormlord's own hand to deliver the people of Mhoried - and indeed all the faithful of Anuire - from all the villains and ravagers of the world. At long last, the gods had sent a savior to deliver them from the great evils of the world.
(The PCs later kill the Spider and Rhuobhe, which greatly bolsters these claims and multiplies the faithful believing in this prophecy far beyond the borders of Mhoried).

Beyond these popular opinions and the deep political and religious divides that are formed, this also shifts the basis of military power being defined more by who has the greatest spellcasters on their side than whose armies are biggest or better-trained. It doesn't really matter if your 20,000 troops are typical 1st level warriors, or elite veteran warriors or fighters averaging 2nd-4th level - most battle magic is going to kill or severely wound them in a single hit.

High-level magic undoubtedly dominates average people in almost every way - be it overt battle magic or subtle enchantment magic like charm, suggestion, and domination. If you are a mundane person unlikely to survive or resist magics like this, you are definitely going to fear them!

But- much like WMDs - if you are part of the team that has them - you are going to be really damn glad your team has them, even if you fear your enemies have them too! So fear also mixes with respect and admiration for that power when used for the benefit of you and yours.

If as a DM you have people react tribally, I think you are going to capture the essential human reaction. If they trust the users of great powers to act for their benefit, they will probably be a fan. If they feel they cannot trust said users, they will probably be a hater. Fear of acting against them might still keep the haters in line, but such folks will always be ripe for recruitment by enemies of the magic-users who convince them there is a way to control or be rid of them.

Final Note: Even if you don't have high-level casters in your campaign (though you as a DM would have to erase most of the D&D magic norms as well as the high-level NPC casters in the setting material to not have them at all), a 5th level wizard can throw a fireball at a tight-packed infantry formation and annihilate several dozen hardened soldiers in the blink of an eye. So you can consider it pretty likely that the average soldier will really dislike, fear, and/or hate magic just like a 20th century soldier would hate few things more than land mines, artillery, flak, snipers, or poison gas - some of the things that make it so survival on the battlefield is less about skill and more about luck.

Allow a Wand of Fireballs in your game, and you can multiply this firepower many times, even in the hands of a 1st level character if they can use the wand!

Likewise: Charm Person is a 1st level spell. Suggestion is even more potent in its ramifications, especially in political situations, and domination most of all...particularly when you realize what it could do in combination with a ceremony of Investiture! You can be sure that having a good magician, mage, cleric, bard, and/or magic items protecting a regent becomes an absolutely essential tool to ensure a regent's safety and free will in a world where such magic exists - nevermind the potential of such magics to mess with your enemies!

Different editions of D&D keep revising the magic more than any other part of the game because they know it is the most unbalancing aspect of D&D, a fact that becomes more apparent as characters rise in level.

As a DM you can either roll with it and adapt your game to suit, or you can try to trim most of it out to try and keep your game as mundanely human and low-magic as possible. I think there are pros and cons to both styles of game.

My own preference (highlighted above) was to try and use D&D (and later Pathfinder 1e) mostly as-written and instead adjust the psychology in the setting to fit a world where such powers exist. This made for a lot less changing of the game rules as a DM and for players, which allowed me to concentrate on the already-immense workload of running a game that has detailed adventures and a full domain-level game. Heavily customizing the D&D rules has always felt like too much extra work on top of everything else a full Birthright game entails.

There's certainly a lot of issues keeping PCs and powerful NPCs relatable to us regular humans as they become high-level superheroes - a problem that exists in every version of D&D and many other fantasy RPGs. But at the end of the day, all of my players have enjoyed imagining what that might be like, just as huge numbers of people enjoy good superhero, anime, and other high fantasy stories. It's not the only kind of good fantasy, but it's definitely a viable one, just as gritty low-magic fantasy can make for good stories of a different type.

[Osprey]

For example, I find that D&D could be so much more, but the generic setting often falls short. BR comes close, but even it holds to the generic ideas of D&D too much, IMO.

I've been continuing to ponder your post and the style of game you prefer, and keep wondering: Is D&D really the best game system for what you are trying to achieve?

One of the very best systems I ever played (and ran for 2 years) was the Swedish RPG Drakar och Demoner. It's quite simple but extremely gritty and down-to-earth in the sense that characters are...always going to be pretty squishy as humans or similar species. Veterancy can help a bit, but mostly you increase skills with experience (including magic if that is your skillset), instead of inexplicably multiplying durability and developing superpowers.

It used to be that the game only existed in English, but recently a version of the game was created by Free League Publishing (Frialigan), and now includes an all-English version called Dragonbane. It's very reasonably priced as a starter box set or pdf, and I couldn't help but think it might make a truly awesome game system for adapting to Birthright.

[Fizz]

Well, isn't that the point - seeing a gnoll or a goblin as not a monster illustrates my point that these creatures have become "mundane" in D&D?

They should be seen as monsters - because they are. And scary ones at that. But veteran D&D players don't seem to have the appropriate response when confronting them, from what I've experienced.

In the case of goblins, individually, a goblin is no more frightening than an individual elf or dwarf, or human. So of course a seasoned adventuring party is not fearful of one. It is when they come in numbers that can make them scary. But that's no different than a party that has to face down an army of humans.

Goblins are a known quantity: they can be reasoned with, they trade with other realms, and a large percentage of the general population has either seen or dealt with them, and they can't do anything that is outside what ordinary humans can do. In all those senses, yes they are mundane.


The mystique and the magic is gone. And that's a pity. I've tried to figure out why - and my answer has boiled down to atmosphere and story factors.

That's ok for some monsters like goblins. They can play the "ordinary" villains. As you say, the true monsters, the ones that keep people up at night, are best exemplified by the awnsheglien. I'm with you there. I think having mundane monsters like goblins empahisizes how truly badass the awnsheglien are.

-Fizz

[Fizz]

While I don't quite hold with masterdaorin's 'fear all magic if you're normal' version of Cerilia, I have run into multiple instances in my own campaigns where fear and uncertainty are pretty rational reactions to magic use - particularly as PC spellcasters get higher level, and higher-level NPC casters also come into focus.

I've always liked that Birthright treats magic as not normal more than other settings. I agree that rarity or even lack of understanding does not equate to fear.

As Arthur C Clarke said, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

We can see this in our own world with various aspects of science and technology. Most people don't understand quantum mechanics or special relativity, yet the science of both goes into all our cell phones and computers and global positioning system respectively. To most people these are effectively magic devices.

That said, some science and technology nowadays is feared. 15-20 years back the big scare was that cell phones would cause brain cancer. And more recently the fear of vaccines was on the rise. The next big scare will probably be the rise of driving cars and AI. Will they prove worthy of fear, or will that fear abate like so many other new technologies before?

By and large, people fear what they don't undestand, but that's largely a gut reaction. Once it can be demonstrated as useful to them, that fear abates, even if the level of understanding does not increase.

Bringing this back to Birthright, i can totally understand that different cultures have different attitudes towards magic. No culture will be completely uniform of course- there are certainly some Vos who are curious in magic, and a few Khinasi who think magic will bring down society. But broad cultural generalizations seem logical to me, as the cultures of Cerilia are more isolated than our own world is.


-Fizz

[masterdaorin]

My own preference (highlighted above) was to try and use D&D (and later Pathfinder 1e) mostly as-written and instead adjust the psychology in the setting to fit a world where such powers exist. This made for a lot less changing of the game rules as a DM and for players, which allowed me to concentrate on the already-immense workload of running a game that has detailed adventures and a full domain-level game. Heavily customizing the D&D rules has always felt like too much extra work on top of everything else a full Birthright game entails.

There's certainly a lot of issues keeping PCs and powerful NPCs relatable to us regular humans as they become high-level superheroes - a problem that exists in every version of D&D and many other fantasy RPGs. But at the end of the day, all of my players have enjoyed imagining what that might be like, just as huge numbers of people enjoy good superhero, anime, and other high fantasy stories. It's not the only kind of good fantasy, but it's definitely a viable one, just as gritty low-magic fantasy can make for good stories of a different type.

Amen, brother.

I completely agree with everything you and Fizz have stated, btw.

All I'm trying to say here is that this style I have developed has worked for the people I game with, so that what it is.

Hey - I've been playing this game for 45 years. I still have fond memories of our young hack-n-slash days. But, I think, as Magnus has so eloquently stated, that the game has evolved away from such simpler RPG times. For the better, I might add.

On the other hand, like other such things, the development has gone to the other end of the scale... Not that that is a bad thing, mind you. But there isn't a measuring stick anymore.

[masterdaorin]

I've been continuing to ponder your post and the style of game you prefer, and keep wondering: Is D&D really the best game system for what you are trying to achieve?

LOL, you speak the truth. I do find D&D to have some drawbacks (like every other game, note, so I don't need to be flamed about saying that).

However, I do love BR, and I do like the game, so I thought I would revisit it and see if I can't make a proper treatment of Birthright for my group. And so I have been chugging along, and I am almost done. The first campaign is done; I'm in the process of going back and filling in what I've learned over the course of play.

I just need to write out all the law, temple, and guild domains, make character stats for every regent listed in all five domain books, and then proofread it all, and I will have the whole continent contained in three supplements, ready for anyone to pick up and play.

That all being said, I find no reason why D&D can't be flexible and adapt to the style of individual gaming groups. If I accomplish anything here in this thread, it's that - D&D can be so much more than what is presented; be brave and try something different for a change.

BR is the PERFECT setting to do just that.

Of course, I'm biased, so don't just take my word about it. Try it yourself.

And I'm here, if you want ideas, help with a problem, or what have you. Just ask. I've spent a lot of time just such things, and how to make a better story.

[masterdaorin]

I've always liked that Birthright treats magic as not normal more than other settings. I agree that rarity or even lack of understanding does not equate to fear.

Of course, and I'll just add, as devil's advocate:

A gaming group must remember that our understanding goes far beyond what was known even just a century ago, and certainly several centuries ago.

It wouldn't hurt to keep in mind that magic (for example) was REAL to people back then. And so were monsters. And gods. Wrap your brain around that. And, we have our history to bear witness to various peoples' and cultures' responses to those beliefs.

All I'm saying, is that BR people and cultures really wouldn't react all that differently from our real world references.

Having, for example, 21st century's human reactions to those common problems might not be the only solution to a problem facing your game. Look back at history, and take your cues from that.

I'll give you an example:

IMC, four of the players (in this theatre of action, all playing brothers) killed their own mother - because she was sleeping with one NPC that they didn't like (and he wasn't even that bad a guy, either). Then they covered it up. And, then, they hunted that guy down and killed him as well. Needless to say, there were consequences (too long to list here). They all ended up dead, and got their just deserts... heh.

But the oldest brother's son survived... and inherited the realm...

Now that's good RPG-ing. And a darn-fine BR campaign.

[Fizz]

It wouldn't hurt to keep in mind that magic (for example) was REAL to people back then. And so were monsters. And gods. Wrap your brain around that. And, we have our history to bear witness to various peoples' and cultures' responses to those beliefs.

All I'm saying, is that BR people and cultures really wouldn't react all that differently from our real world references.


I take your point, but i don't think it's a perfect comparison. Fantastical events can have far more tangible effects in an RPG world than were ever experienced in the real world.

For example, in both Birthright and the real world, a king might believe he is cursed (or blessed), and that might determine whether he decides to go to war. But only in Birthright (or other rpg fantasy) would that king actually consider a wizard tossing fireballs or raising an undead army. No real world king ever went to war with those kinds of concerns, but they are legitimate considerations in Birthright.

Similarly, no real world king ever went to war worried about whether the other side had a unit of gryphons or giants. Whereas in an rpg world, a sizable portion of the populous may have actually seen such beasts (less so in Birthright of course).

So i think that would make a difference in how people react. Belief can be powerful for sure, but more powerful than undeniable effects that everyone can see and hear and feel? I'm not sure.


-Fizz

[Delazar]

It used to be that the game only existed in English, but recently a version of the game was created by Free League Publishing (Frialigan), and now includes an all-English version called Dragonbane. It's very reasonably priced as a starter box set or pdf, and I couldn't help but think it might make a truly awesome game system for adapting to Birthright.

I'm so tempted to write a small conversion document to play Birthright with the Dragonbane rules. Somehow Dragonbane really gives me a Birthright vibe! Maybe it's the art style of the starter set, very evocative!

[Delazar]

If you were to advance the timeline of the setting, how far would you jump ahead? I’ve been thinking of going through the campaign supplements and updating the state of things on each domain, or at least region, based on the adventure hooks that are provided in each realm entry. Obviously this would be my personal opinion on the likelihood of possible futures, but I’m curious how far others would advance it, given the chance.

So far I've advanced the timeline 120 years, I believe. Campaign Setting starts at 550 MR, and we're currently at 673 MR... and still going!

https://birthrightfp.blogspot.com/

[Delazar]

If anyone wants specifics on what I've done, by all means ask away! I'm quite happy to share.

I could babble on for hours and hours about my favorite setting - BR!

I find it more productive for people to ask for feedback, and I can provide my own suggestions toward their specific ideas and thoughts, however.

I'm actually very interested! But I don't want to derail this thread. Do you keep notes online, or some sort of journal that you're willing to share?

[Osprey]

I'm so tempted to write a small conversion document to play Birthright with the Dragonbane rules. Somehow Dragonbane really gives me a Birthright vibe! Maybe it's the art style of the starter set, very evocative!

I've been thinking the same! I only just received the box set the other day and haven't had time to read through the rules yet, but nearly 30 years ago I recreated the basics of Drakar och Demoner 4th edition from my memory of reading it in Swedish while I was abroad there, and later a friend sent me a copy of the magic supplement to help flesh out that aspect. I used that to run my own homebrew game world for 3 years, and absolutely loved the down-to-earth, intuitive mechanics. I found that only high-powered magic had the potential of really breaking the story away from characters remaining very human throughout their careers. Experienced characters were just more skilled, and almost always remained quite mortal and vulnerable to threats at all levels. This helped retain dramatic tension in all action scenes, and made sure the characters rarely reached a level of simply dismissing most regular people or monsters as non-threatening. As a result, the characters stayed very relatable, and roleplaying was very intuitive, a huge plus for every game. For my players being introduced to RPGs for the first time it was terrific - less focus on digesting a shiteload of rules, and an easier time focusing on thinking, acting, and speaking through their characters' perspectives. For my veteran players, they were able to very easily dive deep into their character personas, because for most there wasn't a lot of focus wasted on trying to min-max the system. The only exception was one character: a druid who eventually mastered healing and regeneration, shapeshifting into a werebear, and earth-melding...a combination that was so OP it stole the challenge out of almost every encounter. Lesson learned!

I'm curious to learn what has been reformed in Dragonbane/DoD since those days - hopefully it retains the best elements while adding a few improvements!

[masterdaorin]

I'm actually very interested! But I don't want to derail this thread. Do you keep notes online, or some sort of journal that you're willing to share?

I don't do anything online, though I'm keeping word files of everything. Once everything is finished, I could offer them as downloads here, if the site administers wish.

In the meantime, I could provide specifics about general aspects, if you wish. But, as I noted, its particular to my own gaming group, so I'm not sure how helpful it would be.

I can offer tips and advice with your own campaign or game, however.

For example, in the above noted example IMC, I decided that I needed a way to track alignment changes. So now I have a simple mechanic for that.

[masterdaorin]

... I found that only high-powered magic had the potential of really breaking the story away from characters remaining very human throughout their careers. Experienced characters were just more skilled, and almost always remained quite mortal and vulnerable to threats at all levels. This helped retain dramatic tension in all action scenes, and made sure the characters rarely reached a level of simply dismissing most regular people or monsters as non-threatening. As a result, the characters stayed very relatable, and roleplaying was very intuitive, a huge plus for every game...

This is exactly what I'm talking about.

My solution in my D&D games is to basically forget CL/CR and experience rules. and write the story that I want to tell - the rules be damned. I keep things at low- to mid-range level, for the most part, for the PCs, and they rarely advance beyond that, unless they do a lot of training and/or adventuring, or the story demands their growth (i.e. a certain high-level spell or ability). Most NPCs are rarely above 1st or 2nd level, unless they are important to the story. You would be surprised, for example, just how effective a horde of about 20 thugs (or 1 HD "monsters") can be versus a group of higher-level PCs.

My encounters are rarely "balancing", by any edition of the rules. I also roll the dice out in the open, and the results speak for themselves; I rarely use "DM Fiat", unless it's absolutely crucial to the story (and I somehow missed a contingency that I didn't plan for in the encounter - it happens). Sometimes the players just have to learn that there is always a bigger fish...

And, IMO, the BR setting is perfect for that very reason...

[Fizz]

One of the very best systems I ever played (and ran for 2 years) was the Swedish RPG Drakar och Demoner. It's quite simple but extremely gritty and down-to-earth in the sense that characters are...always going to be pretty squishy as humans or similar species. Veterancy can help a bit, but mostly you increase skills with experience (including magic if that is your skillset), instead of inexplicably multiplying durability and developing superpowers.

It used to be that the game only existed in English, but recently a version of the game was created by Free League Publishing (Frialigan), and now includes an all-English version called Dragonbane. It's very reasonably priced as a starter box set or pdf, and I couldn't help but think it might make a truly awesome game system for adapting to Birthright.

This sounds quite interesting. I like gritty systems. Have you tried it yet? Perhaps we should start another thread to discuss. :)

-Fizz

[Outlaw Pope]

I am working on something like as someone who is relatively new to Birthright - mostly for the purposes of making a PW in the game NWN - I needed a kitchen sink and basically was looking for locations that would fit for it and I decided on Thaele because it is known to the Cerilia civilizations, doesn't have much lore, and wasn't a massive continent like Aduria and the little Anuirean colonies there.

My basic idea is basically 100-200 years have passed. Some things I am thinking of currently to create chaos that makes Thaele a "setting" adjacent to all of the famous/important stuff.


*) Bad stuff in general is happening. It seems as though the barrier between the Shadow World and the Daylight Realm is weakening - monsters/beings (for better and for worse) from other worlds and planes are taking root all over.

*) The Cold Rider may or may not be tied to this. I am not entirely sold on making the cold rider an explicit successor of Azrai - considering making them a rising god of Death and the End akin to Nerull where as they are opposed to the goddess Nasirie who is the idea you'll die and your legacy remains and the dead out to be honored. But the rise of this power is also messing things up.

*) The Gorgon has displaced the Ice Witch who has migrated and founded an "evil" civilization on Thaele through some of the areas she was previously prospecting. He has also conquered significant portions of Anuire and the settled Rjurik civilization. A heresy/apostasy in the church of Haelyn has declared a new Cult of Raesene, a successor or savior from all the disorder in the world, a new and rightful god for a new empire yadda yadda. Something like that.

*) The Serpent also has risen - his cult and empire has overtaken some parts of Khinasi, establishing his serpent cult, and basically larping a renewal of Masetia alongside what is effectively the introduction of Yuan-ti born from him/his priesthood and ruling caste.

*) The Raven is basically putting Vosgaard's human civilizations under his boot as many of Belinik's people respect his strength and bend the knee to him - some are going off into the wastes with the monsters - others fleeing to the Ice Witch's city in Thaele.

*) The Magian I do not yet know what to do yet, I am considering he has also advanced some but might be trying to play the Serpent and the Gorgon off one another.

*) The Manslayer I am considering has riled up a new age of elven hate for a few very noteworthy human purges, causing elves and half-elves in Anuirean lands both under the Gorgon and beyond him to just purge or pogrom - some elves flee to Thaele after rumors of old ruins discovered there.

*) Gunpowder has been catching on beyond the naval applications, largely, because Brecht trades have learned or bought a dwarven innovation used in mining. This has lead to the Brecht becoming better able to defend themselves from their neighbors despite their smallness - gunpowder has a similar dislike as arcane magic has, but its proven military powers has caused many to experiment with firearms. Dwarves and Brecht effectively have them fully embraced.

*) Gnomes have been found to have a large indigenous population in the forests of Thaele and are now more common in the north. I have been debating between having them being an entirely typical DnD origin as a separate race similar to the elves having come from the faerie realms long ago - or that they are the result of Dwarven and Elven pairings which are undocumented and supremely rare. Again, not really sure how I want them themed but I want gnomes to be available.

*) Demonic/devilish worship pops up now and then because of the presence of fiends in the Shadow World and the implications of Azrai inviting fiends into this world in its youth - now blossoming into temptations of new magics sourced off compacts with these fiends.

The TL;DR basically "the continent is going through a bad time, monsters, men, and gods are going at it" and this has caused Thaele which is on the edge of the world to become a place of refuge/high adventure.

Stuff that'll be relevant and let players kind of advance things that are basically:

*) A city founded by and ruled over by the Ice Witch who may have even abandoned her continental holdings to seek after something here on Thaele. She has made a coalition of corrupted Rjurik pirates, Vosgaarders from the Raven's domain, and numerous monsters (orogs, kobolds, goblins) to help in her efforts to explore/colonized Thaele.

*) Another city which was initially a Rjurik village, then an Anuirean colony, and now an independent city-principality ruled over by a displaced Khinasi lord. It tends toward a more "kind" playstyle.

*) Brecht populations and traders go between both places and you can find them as mercenaries/settlers on both sides.

*) Elves/Helves might have a secret civilization forming here, but can be found as adventurers and refugees on both sides.

*) A dwarven clan has either found an old dwarven ruin and are reclaiming it or are making something new here. There is an evil clan of dwarves who practice dark sorcery and worship a god of magic/exiles (Laduguer) in the Ice Witch's territory.

*) Halflings will be present in typical fashion - but there might be infiltration of Shadowy, corrupted halflings loyal to their warlords and The Lost, as well as other minions of those ancient evils present in the area.

---

Obviously still working on it and I also really won't be filling in every gap because I want room to expand/add and largely leave it to the playerbase if we get one to make stuff change there.