Those pesky dragons...

[masterdaorin]

Speaking of alternate takes on wizard domains...

Anyone here have given any thoughts about how dragons do what they do re: source holdings?

Do dragons have de facto bloodlines? Do they just get RP from any source holding they seize?

I'm thinking of the Dragon in the HotGB, and Vore Lenkinisky in TotHW...

[side note] I wish dragons were changed into not being spellcasters in this setting... sigh...

[Doyle]

A couple of ways to deal with this:

1. If you don't want dragons to be spell casters in your campaign, then they are not spell casters. There is only supposed to be about six remaining in Cerilia, and they are being quiet. So who is that flinging magic around their realm? Well, it wouldn't be the first time a wizard has referred to themselves as a dragon to seem more powerful / scary. Alternately, an ancient dragon could have a humanoid thrall / student that casts spells for it.

2. Ancient dragons are supposed to be horribly powerful. Part of that might be an in-born essence that is similar enough to bloodline to be able to manipulate magic of one form or another. Haven't they (and elves) been doing that since before Deismaar?

[masterdaorin]

2. Ancient dragons are supposed to be horribly powerful. Part of that might be an in-born essence that is similar enough to bloodline to be able to manipulate magic of one form or another. Haven't they (and elves) been doing that since before Deismaar?

Right, I assume that dragons are like elves, and they don't need bloodlines.

However, how to deal with dragon source regents... give them a bloodline, or some other option...?

[Fizz]

Woot- post #500!

This is one of the quirks of the setting: if a bloodline is required to have a holding, then how did anyone have a holding pre-Deismaar when there were no bloodlines? There will still armies, guilds, and churches, and someone had to lead them. And presumably elves could cast realm magic from sources just as they do today.

That issue may be tangential to your question, but it's why I would say dragons do not have or need a bloodline. They can hold and use source holdings as anyone else. Without a bloodline, then they don't collect regency and thus attempt any domain actions with no bonus (worst case scenario i think).


-Fizz

[masterdaorin]

Woot- post #500!

This is one of the quirks of the setting: if a bloodline is required to have a holding, then how did anyone have a holding pre-Deismaar when there were no bloodlines? There will still armies, guilds, and churches, and someone had to lead them. And presumably elves could cast realm magic from sources just as they do today.

That issue may be tangential to your question, but it's why I would say dragons do not have or need a bloodline. They can hold and use source holdings as anyone else. Without a bloodline, then they don't collect regency and thus attempt any domain actions with no bonus (worst case scenario i think).


-Fizz

Yup, I agree.

But, how can they cast realm spells then... there's no point in having a holding... unless, I guess, if the holder is just denying them to other potential source regents...

I suspect, however, that dragons are meant to cast realm spells...

[Fizz]

Yup, I agree.
But, how can they cast realm spells then... there's no point in having a holding... unless, I guess, if the holder is just denying them to other potential source regents...
I suspect, however, that dragons are meant to cast realm spells...

If one holds a source, and is capable of True Magic, then one can cast Realm Spells, is how i would handle it.

-Fizz

[masterdaorin]

If one holds a source, and is capable of True Magic, then one can cast Realm Spells, is how i would handle it.

But I believe realm spells require regency points to cast...

[Fizz]

But I believe realm spells require regency points to cast...

Hmmm... good point. Perhaps we need a modified rule for such a case. The usual rule is the character collects RP equal to the lower of their blood score or sum of holdings, right? What would be a good alternative (assuming we want non-blooded but powerful critters like dragons to be capable of it)? Have to think about that...

(This goes back to my earlier point about pre-Deismaar... with no bloodlines there were no RP to collect, so how did anyone, be them elves or dragons cast realm magic? Was there realm magic at all?)

-Fizz

[masterdaorin]

Hmmm... good point. Perhaps we need a modified rule for such a case. The usual rule is the character collects RP equal to the lower of their blood score or sum of holdings, right? What would be a good alternative (assuming we want non-blooded but powerful critters like dragons to be capable of it)? Have to think about that...

Yes, but that would mean that dragons have, effectively, an unlimited blood score (since they will always be collecting the sum total of their holdings).

That is what I was thinking originally, but...

That would make scions much less better at ruling than non-blooded beings... It is dragons we're talking about here, but still...


(This goes back to my earlier point about pre-Deismaar... with no bloodlines there were no RP to collect, so how did anyone, be them elves or dragons cast realm magic? Was there realm magic at all?)

I'm pretty sure (arcane/realm) magic was the purview of the gods only before Deismaar.

Azrai taught a few of his favorite followers true magic - perhaps he also instilled a little divine essence into them?

Heck, I suppose the other gods could have too...

[masterdaorin]

I suppose we could say that, if the non-blooded regent did something to earn a minor/major/great regency gain, then that is a perfect way for them to earn a few regency points without collecting them on a regular basis...

Hmm... I think I like that. Anyone see problems with that?

The only problem I can see is, they have no blood power to "hold" onto those RPs, so I guess the non-blooded regent would have to use them right away, or loose these bonus RP...

[Sorontar]

Maybe a dragon have a connection to the land without bloodline, such that this existed pre-Deismaar and does allow them to have a degree of control over a particular source holding (probably localised where they have a hoard). They may not have had realm magic initially because the land wasn't empowered for the blooded like that (maybe because it was a power only granted to the gods), but maybe after Deismaar realm magic was possible to any who had regency over a suitable holding, even dragons.

Sorontar

[masterdaorin]

So, they get RP, or no? And, how much?

[Fizz]

I've been searching through some sources to see if i can find precedent.

Dragon Magazine #248 says the following about the dragon Vore Lekiniskiy (written by Ed Stark):
"Vore Lekiniskiy can cast wizard spells at the 20th level of ability and has access to nearly any spell available on Cerilia. Recently, there is evidence that Vore has access to realm magic as well, though this has yet to be confirmed."

And it makes no mention of Vore having a bloodline, not even in the full stat block. So are they deliberately being vague to leave it up to the DM? But either way, it suggests that dragons have the potential to cast realm magic.

-Fizz

[Fizz]

Yes, but that would mean that dragons have, effectively, an unlimited blood score (since they will always be collecting the sum total of their holdings).
That would make scions much less better at ruling than non-blooded beings... It is dragons we're talking about here, but still...

I'm not understanding your meaning here. The standard rule is that a character collects RP equal to their bloodscore, or sum of holdings, whichever is lower. So using that rule, a dragon (who is not blooded), would collect 0 RP. So i don't see how that makes a non-scion a better ruler. Am i missing something in your meaning?


I'm pretty sure (arcane/realm) magic was the purview of the gods only before Deismaar.

I don't recall that. In my head i've assumed it was possible, as the magic from the land is separate from that of the gods.


-Fizz

[masterdaorin]

I'm not understanding your meaning here. The standard rule is that a character collects RP equal to their bloodscore, or sum of holdings, whichever is lower. So using that rule, a dragon (who is not blooded), would collect 0 RP. So i don't see how that makes a non-scion a better ruler. Am i missing something in your meaning?

I mean, if we allow dragons to hold source holdings without a bloodline, and use them to full effect (as noted in your previous post), then do they just get virtual RP = to the number of source holdings per domain turn? OR some other mechanic?

Or, should we go with my other suggestion, and allow non-scions access to RP via special dispensation, such as with regency gains for effective regent actions? < I rather like that option, as it solves the whole pre-Deismaar conundrum.


I don't recall that. In my head i've assumed it was possible, as the magic from the land is separate from that of the gods.

True (greater) magic was not useable except via elves (and dragons, and any others of that ilk) until Azrai taught humans about true magic. The first ones were the Lost.

Divine magic was all that there was until that happened. Unless, of course, I'm also mistaken.

I think it was in the Atlas of Cerilia? I'll have to go look it up again, if anyone wants to challenge me on that last point...

[Doyle]

IIRC (possibly this changed with 3.5), but characters could have holdings without a bloodline, they just couldn't collect RP - making them less effective as a regent, but not incapable.

[Fizz]

True (greater) magic was not useable except via elves (and dragons, and any others of that ilk) until Azrai taught humans about true magic. The first ones were the Lost.

Sorry, I was referring to realm magic- was there arcane realm magic before Deismaar, cast by elves and dragons and similar creatures (but not humans)?


Divine magic was all that there was until that happened. Unless, of course, I'm also mistaken.

Yes, humans had divine magic, but did they have divine realm magic before Deismaar? If there was arcane relam magic, then there was probably also divine realm magic (else i think the elves would have pushed back the humans).


I mean, if we allow dragons to hold source holdings without a bloodline, and use them to full effect (as noted in your previous post), then do they just get virtual RP = to the number of source holdings per domain turn? OR some other mechanic?

OK, i see what you mean now. And yes, this would make non-scions potentially better rulers (than low blood-score scions anyways), since only holdings would matter.


Or, should we go with my other suggestion, and allow non-scions access to RP via special dispensation, such as with regency gains for effective regent actions? < I rather like that option, as it solves the whole pre-Deismaar conundrum.

So you are saying that the non-scion regent would not automatically collect RP, yes? The regent would make a domain action, but not be able to bid any RP. If successful, they earn some RP, to do something else? That's a possibility. Before committing, I'd want to think about the math, to make sure there is no way such a character could become better than a blooded scion.


-Fizz

[masterdaorin]

So you are saying that the non-scion regent would not automatically collect RP, yes? The regent would make a domain action, but not be able to bid any RP. If successful, they earn some RP, to do something else? That's a possibility. Before committing, I'd want to think about the math, to make sure there is no way such a character could become better than a blooded scion.

Yea, that's exactly what I'm thinking.

Non-scions would have to have to earn their RP via methods other than holdings. So, adventures, good domain management, etc.

For dragons specifically, not sure what they would do to get RPs, however. They probably just sleep most of the time... :)

Wait a minute... lightbulb!

Maybe dragons are like natural sources? They collect mebhaighl naturally, and thus "earn" RP that way? Perhaps a certain number of RP/turn based on age category?

[masterdaorin]

IIRC (possibly this changed with 3.5), but characters could have holdings without a bloodline, they just couldn't collect RP - making them less effective as a regent, but not incapable.

Yea, that's seems the most likely.

However, if we have actions (and related domain things) requiring RP, then we need to have a way for non-blooded to access those (normal) actions.

I think anyone should be able to be regents.

It would make GB more useful too - at least find a use for all that excess GB to be used...

[masterdaorin]

Sorry, I was referring to realm magic- was there arcane realm magic before Deismaar, cast by elves and dragons and similar creatures (but not humans)?
...
Yes, humans had divine magic, but did they have divine realm magic before Deismaar? If there was arcane relam magic, then there was probably also divine realm magic (else i think the elves would have pushed back the humans).


I would assume realm magic (either variety) has existed since magic was capable of being cast.

Humans only had access to arcane realm magic when Azrai let them in on the secrets...

Now that 3e has given bards and magicians healing magic, however, humanity's power over the elves in this pre-history seems less like a reality now...

[Fizz]

Now that 3e has given bards and magicians healing magic, however, humanity's power over the elves in this pre-history seems less like a reality now...

Something with which i vehemently disagree (giving healing to those classes, i mean). :)

-Fizz

[masterdaorin]

Yup, and giving dragons access to healing spells (or magic, for that matter; I think that they should simply be simple-minded, terrifying lizards... :) )

However, that's what we have for rules, so...

What do you think of my proposed fixes?

[Fizz]

However, that's what we have for rules, so...
Only if you're playing 3e, which i am not. ;)


What do you think of my proposed fixes?
I like the notion of that a non-blooded regent has to earn his RP. I think the idea is good in principle, the devil is in the details as they say.

Though sometimes i think it might just be easier to change to rule for everyone; instead of using the lowest of the bloodline score and holdings, use the average of the two values.


Maybe dragons are like natural sources? They collect mebhaighl naturally, and thus "earn" RP that way? Perhaps a certain number of RP/turn based on age category?

If a dragon collects mebhaigl, are you suggesting that a caster could draw power from the dragon itself? I don't like that idea. Though the dragon Vore Lekiniskiy has "merged" with the mountain, so he might be a special case where the dragon might be treated as a source.

But the notion that a dragon can collect mebhaigl and convert it to RP has potential. How much mebhaigl corresponds to an "earned" RP were you thinking?


-Fizz

[Osprey]

Why would dragons control Sources or cast realm spells? Because they are epic, and this makes them moreso?

I think of dragons like elves - they can cast true magic because it's inherent to their nature, not because they have divine bloodlines. Unblooded elves can be wizards or sorcerers, but those elves can't control sources or cast realm spells. As far as I know, that ability is the sole province of blooded mages - hence why elven source regents all have divine bloodlines.

If one *does* wish for dragons to have divine bloodlines, control sources, and cast realm spells, in my mind the easiest thing to do is treat them as themselves divine beings, and make their base bloodline scores equal to their Hit Dice (or based on that), then allow them to grow their bloodlines from source domains if so desired.

(But personally, I think it's easier to say that dragons predate source magic and realm spells).

[masterdaorin]

(But personally, I think it's easier to say that dragons predate source magic and realm spells).

Well, what does that mean?

I'm just trying to find a mechanic to explain stuff in the core material...

Dragons seem to be able to cast realm spells...

The HD option sounds plausible... non-regents get RP based on level?

[masterdaorin]

If a dragon collects mebhaigl, are you suggesting that a caster could draw power from the dragon itself? I don't like that idea. Though the dragon Vore Lekiniskiy has "merged" with the mountain, so he might be a special case where the dragon might be treated as a source.

Well, no, unless they can mystically bond with the dragon, which I would assume the dragon would resist...

I'm not sure treating Vore as a one-off is a good idea, either. I get that he's epic among dragons, but I think his spell abilities are typical of dragons (just developed to a higher degree?).

I don't want to create a whole new set of rules, here... just a creative fix, if possible.


But the notion that a dragon can collect mebhaigl and convert it to RP has potential. How much mebhaigl corresponds to an "earned" RP were you thinking.

Well, either they are like other non-blooded regents and earn RP based on regency gains like these other class of non-divine beings...

Or they get an amount of RP another way... Osprey's HD limitation sounds ok... or maybe based on their wizard-casting level? In the original 2e rules, dragons cast as 9-16th level wizards, I believe...

Something which the Dragon magazine articles overlooked, IIRC (the featured dragons all cast at higher level...) sigh.

[Osprey]

Dragons seem to be able to cast realm spells...


Can you give a reference where this is the case, or is hinted at? I don't recall reading anything like that, but certainly haven't read all the 2e material either.

[masterdaorin]

Can you give a reference where this is the case, or is hinted at? I don't recall reading anything like that, but certainly haven't read all the 2e material either.

The Dragon of Vstaive Peak article claims that he may have access to realm magic. He holds sources.

There is another rumored dragon in the north, who also holds sources. I believe it's Tarazin, but it's left intentionally vague.

Regardless, dragons are some of the most powerful magic-users in existence. They hold sources. Having realm magic probably isn't a stretch...

[Osprey]

The Dragon of Vstaive Peak article claims that he may have access to realm magic. He holds sources.

There is another rumored dragon in the north, who also holds sources. I believe it's Tarazin, but it's left intentionally vague.

Regardless, dragons are some of the most powerful magic-users in existence. They hold sources. Having realm magic probably isn't a stretch...

Thanks, that's really the 1st I had ever heard of dragons being source regents in Cerilia other than by fans.

If they hold sources, they might have realm magic...or maybe they use the mebhaighal to strengthen their magic over the centuries? Like gaining sorcerer levels beyond the default for their age? Or learning some extra tricks (like metamagic or item creation feats in 3e)? Or for fueling the creation of magic items?

Once we stop thinking of what humans do with sources, thinking what dragons might do with a steady supply of arcane energy has a lot of creative possibilities! Month-long ritual magic seems like one of the less likely things I imagine them wanting to do...not because they lack patience of course, but more the ritual factor.

I guess realm magic has always seemed a very wizardly or priestly thing and not an intuitive sorcerer thing to me. (I know in 2e there are no sorcerers, but later, when there are, it makes perfect sense that dragons are not wizards and don't generally use books and such).

[masterdaorin]

I guess realm magic has always seemed a very wizardly or priestly thing and not an intuitive sorcerer thing to me. (I know in 2e there are no sorcerers, but later, when there are, it makes perfect sense that dragons are not wizards and don't generally use books and such).

Perhaps they "feed" off the mebhaighl to extend their lifespan?

Anyway, there doesn't seem a point for them being source holders without the ability to use realm magic.

The dragon (Vore for now, but others I would assume) grab sources so that they can be involved in human affairs (i.e. domain actions)... at least, that is what the article implies.

So, using HD as a virtual bloodline is the best way of handling it? Or should we just give these special dragons bloodlines?

[Malphas]

I'm now also tackling the same problem.

I did create a system of inferior rp collection for a different reason already (pcs thought of exploring some distant shores. distant enough to not have much blooded individuals. back then i didn't expect there to still be a community for birthright)

now they started paying attention to draconic matters instead (the expedition is suspended until either roundship becomes available or seaworthiness of vessels improves)
from discussions we had there came 2 thought patterns:
1 dragons are embodiment of power and thus collect from source holdings only but without restriction (someone had to mage the dragonlines)
2 dragons collect from source and province holdings but with an age category based cap

after discussing with pcs i'm leaning towards nr 1 honestly and think that a bit more limited action list is perhaps worth a consideration.

p.s. there was a rule that dragon bones increase source potential by 1. so dragons definitely are quite magical

[masterdaorin]

p.s. there was a rule that dragon bones increase source potential by 1. so dragons definitely are quite magical

I don't believe there was any rule about that, just a throwaway line in a sourcebook hinting at such.

I'm actually leaning towards just giving these special dragons a bloodline and calling it a day.

The problem with RP collection for non-scions as it is currently being bandied about is it makes scions somewhat less special.

Perhaps if a bloodline merely gave a bonus to regent actions (basically, an ability modifier), then we could create the rule that RP collection is based solely on level, or whatever, and it would make it fair for everyone (but scions would just be better at regent actions).

[masterdaorin]

Could dragons have an "inherent" bloodline (and, for that matter, elves)? Their inherently magical nature gives them the ability to create a bloodline?

I'm thinking, they start off at a score of 1 when they gain a source holding and, using the increasing bloodline strength rules via RP, can increase that score over time just like any other regent?

[Osprey]

Could dragons have an "inherent" bloodline (and, for that matter, elves)? Their inherently magical nature gives them the ability to create a bloodline?

I'm thinking, they start off at a score of 1 when they gain a source holding and, using the increasing bloodline strength rules via RP, can increase that score over time just like any other regent?

I still think a dragon's inherent bloodline strength should be related to its hit dice, because those are related to its age, and age = power for dragons. Their inherent magical power is tied to their age, it would make sense their ability to manipulate sources and other holdings would also be tied to this.

An easy number would be Bloodline Score = 2 x HD.

Now whether or not a dragon could raise its score beyond the base score through controlling holdings (especially sources) and spending RP is a different question. But it makes sense that some mebhaighl-hoarding dragons might develop very powerful bloodlines far beyond their inherent strength!

[Sorontar]

The hit dice measure might make sense but it needs a backstory reason. Perhaps at the core of the heart of every dragon is permanent elemental essence which is tied to the earth of Aebyrnis/Shadow World. Maybe even when the worlds split, the dragons were born from that essence, hence their rarity, and hence the connection they still have to the land - and the regency power they can have even before the Battle of Deismaar. They are not gods, but they are part of the land. The strength of that connection can change, but they can be treated like they are blooded.

Just a thought.

Sorontar

[Osprey]

The hit dice measure might make sense but it needs a backstory reason. Perhaps at the core of the heart of every dragon is permanent elemental essence which is tied to the earth of Aebyrnis/Shadow World. Maybe even when the worlds split, the dragons were born from that essence, hence their rarity, and hence the connection they still have to the land - and the regency power they can have even before the Battle of Deismaar. They are not gods, but they are part of the land. The strength of that connection can change, but they can be treated like they are blooded.

Just a thought.

Sorontar

All we really know about dragon magic from the 2e box set reference card is this:

Dragon Magic: All Cerilian dragons are powerful spellcasters, equivalent to wizards of 9th -16th (1d8+8) level. However, dragons are able to use spells only from the schools of abjuration, alteration, conjuration/summoning, and divination. Victims of dragon magic suffer a saving throw penalty equal to the dragon's Armor Class modifier due to its age; thus, a victim of a wyrm's spells suffers a -3 penalty to saving throws.

The idea that dragons are Earth-aligned creatures does mesh well with their allowed schools being "earth schools." Their save penalties suggest the old ones are potent specialists in their chosen schools, but they are quite limited in choice of spells, which makes them rather inferior to other true mages.

As I see them so strongly tied to the earth and mebhaighl, I am not sure I see there being any Shadow World connection at all - especially given their lack of enchantment, illusion, and necromancy magic, the 3 schools most tied to the nature of the Shadow World).

It's always been my impression that dragons may be even older than elves, and possibly the first true mages of Cerilia (though the greatest elven and human mages will eventually surpass them in breadth of lore and total ability). Elves might be just as old, and there is no reference I can find to elves learning magic from any other source than themselves and the mebhaighal itself.

The inherent mage spells of a dragon could also easily replace bloodline powers, so that there is no need to develop a Draconic Bloodline and give dragons extra (divine) powers.

[masterdaorin]

I still think a dragon's inherent bloodline strength should be related to its hit dice, because those are related to its age, and age = power for dragons. Their inherent magical power is tied to their age, it would make sense their ability to manipulate sources and other holdings would also be tied to this.

An easy number would be Bloodline Score = 2 x HD.

Now whether or not a dragon could raise its score beyond the base score through controlling holdings (especially sources) and spending RP is a different question. But it makes sense that some mebhaighl-hoarding dragons might develop very powerful bloodlines far beyond their inherent strength!

That does make sense, and seems the easiest method, but I'm reluctant to go with this as it is a "static" stat. This sort of thing (i.e. regency) seems to be more dynamic in nature, if you catch my meaning.

[masterdaorin]

As I see them so strongly tied to the earth and mebhaighl, I am not sure I see there being any Shadow World connection at all - especially given their lack of enchantment, illusion, and necromancy magic, the 3 schools most tied to the nature of the Shadow World).

I agree.


It's always been my impression that dragons may be even older than elves, and possibly the first true mages of Cerilia (though the greatest elven and human mages will eventually surpass them in breadth of lore and total ability). Elves might be just as old, and there is no reference I can find to elves learning magic from any other source than themselves and the mebhaighal itself.

The inherent mage spells of a dragon could also easily replace bloodline powers, so that there is no need to develop a Draconic Bloodline and give dragons extra (divine) powers.

Indeed, dragons are older than elves - the cardstock sheet in which you referenced states as much.

My impression is that dragons and elves are pretty much the same - their inherent magical nature allows them to learn about magic use in much the same way (i.e. it comes naturally to them).

The problem, at least as it relates to this thread's topic, is that two canon sources provide contradictory information: the article on Tarazin says that dragons are immune to the absorption of divine energy, while the Lifesbane article says that Zakhur's momma absorbed so much divine energy at Deismaar that it literally killed her.

So, what to do?

And, whatever we decide, if dragons can access sources naturally (say, via HD), then elves ought to have the same ability to do so, wouldn't you agree?

[masterdaorin]

As an aside, who wrote the conversion statistics of Cerilian dragons for the 3/3.5e version of the rules found here on this site?

I have questions... such as:

How did the author arrive at the CR and Advancement numbers? The same applies for the various age category-dependent numbers, like size... And, should dragons have a subtype (Fire, Earth)?

And the cardstock sheet clearly implies that a Cerilian dragon's breath weapon is a line, but the stat block states that it is a cone. (Of course, the canon articles I have mentioned also imply that dragons breath a cone effect... so, I can live with that difference).