Of Divinity and Bloodlines... [Archive]

masterdaorin

06-05-2023, 10:47 PM

I think, regardless of whether it is possible or not, that the belief it is possible is a driving factor, particularly for very powerful awnsheghlien.

Totally agree on that point.

I think it must be possible, since it was the divine essence of the former gods that created the new. It's the same divine essence that exists in bloodlines- the same stuff- so if you can acquire enough of it, ascendency ought to be possible.

That's what I'm thinking, and I'm sure scions believe that too. So, it ought to be true.

This is the tricky bit. While it might be possible, i'm not sure that anyone on Cerilia is anywhere near the required value yet. There is a huge difference in power between the Gorgon to even a minor deity. For example, the Gorgon can't hear prayers or grant spells to anyone. It just feels to me like there is so much more power required to reach deity-hood.

Now this is the million point question. While it's tempting to go for large numbers, I'm not so sure now that I've been pondering this question.

At Deismaar, we have, shall we say, concentric circles of power absorption. The new gods were closest, so they got the most, but their champions, such as the Gorgon, were nearby to them.

If those guys only got, say 75, to start with, then I'm thinking maybe it's not too much of a stretch to double that figure as a rough ballpark estimate for the "lesser" new deities, or perhaps slightly higher.

I've been thinking of what score would it take to get all the blood abilities listed in the rulebook for each derivation, and give it a little boost for "deityhood", average it all out, and call that the threshold level.

Thoughts?

That said, we do have the case of the Serpent, who can apparently grant spells, though it's never been confirmed how that works, or even if it genuinely is the Serpent doing the granting.

Precisely.

IMC, I just have his priests get their powers from the Cold Rider - with the Serpent just saying it comes from him... kinda seems like a "serpent" thing to do... and considering Azrai's totem is serpent... kinda fits...

But that does beg the question... the Serpent only has a score of 77, IIRC, so...

Sorontar

06-07-2023, 01:15 PM

There is the Faceless God, but that was not created exclusively for use in Birthright and never was given a blood abilities or scores when originally introduced.

I would expect any new demigod to have had a True Bloodline. This would prevent most Anuireans ever achieving deity status.

Sorontar

masterdaorin

06-07-2023, 10:11 PM

Where was this Faceless God introduced? I don't remember that...

I suspect that if a scion amassed enough bloodline to qualify for becoming a deity, their strength would become True. There is precedence for strength change...

There has got to be a magic number for this... but what?

Fizz

06-07-2023, 10:24 PM

There is the Faceless God, but that was not created exclusively for use in Birthright and never was given a blood abilities or scores when originally introduced.

You must mean the Forgotten God, that seems to be the more common name in the source material, rather than "Faceless".

Where was this Faceless God introduced? I don't remember that...

It was from Dragon #241. It was an article about how to incorporate the Yak-Men from Al-Qadim (good setting btw) into other D&D settings, including Birthright.

-Fizz

Swashbuckler

06-14-2023, 08:35 PM

I have a somewhat-different take.

For all intents and purposes, the actions of the scions on Aebrynis do not happen in a vacuum. If any scion was increasing in bloodline strength enough to get close to true divinity, it would trigger some events (and likely well-before they were even close). Such as:

1) the current/'new' god of that derivation might have issues with it, and would take action(s);
2) other opposing current/'new' gods wouldn't want the playing field tilted in their opponents' direction, and would take action(s);
3) even non-scion entities like large churches or guilds may react poorly if they believe that some 'upstart' is known to be pursuing/taking action towards divinity.
4) the Gorgon would certainly become directly involved

The closest thing (as has been discussed above) approaching demigod status in the game, regardless of edition, is the Gorgon. As powerful as it is, even it is far from the goal of demigodhood - but still closer than almost every other blooded creature on the planet.

Thus, while the mechanics can probably be developed to where such a thing as increased-bloodline-strength-equals-demigod-status could be a reality, speaking personally, I'd never allow it in one of my games. Something (or multiple things) from the list above would put an end (and likely a very creative one) to any PC's aspirations of godhood. Plus, I liken the idea of PCs-attaining-godhood more to a Forgotten Realms game than a Birthright game. Not my cup of tea. YMMV.

masterdaorin

06-14-2023, 10:17 PM

Witness3

06-15-2023, 09:08 AM

Here is my take, It's a personal take built upon various stuff since AFAIK there is no "official" answer to if and how a blooded scion may become a god.

2 Things I was inspired:
1. The roman deification process;
2. The fact that, despite what the Book of Priestcraft says, gods and their followers souls reside in the shadow world, not the planes, it could not make sense after all that was said about BR not having planar access.

I was inspired by the concept of roman deification or greek apotheosis, the process of a mortal becoming a god. the TL;DR is that you need to die to become a god.

In life, you may become a demigod or a saint by amounting enough blood points (I'd say at least 100 in 2E points); This will grant godlike powers in form of blood abilites, it seems. But you would also need enough people "linked" to your being, something I'd measure with regency points. I'd say 300 RP at least. Those numbers are totally arbitrary and inspired from The gorgon's alliance game.

Although the blood will left the scion at the time of his death, with enough regency and influence upon his entering into the Shadow World he may have enough power to shape the Seeming and so the physical world just as any god would do.

Another aspect that could be considered in greek apotheosis is that this process may require the intervention of a major god. This could be used in generating lesser gods, with smaller portfolios.

This would give a linear explanation on some of the BR mythos: A lot of people were near the gods during Deiismaar, but only their leaders, the one most revered and spoken of, become gods upon their death. Maybe Raesene wasn't just liked enough or his betrayal has distanced the Andus from him. Also, ironically, the immortal Gorgon would need to die to become a god. I can see humanoids worship him as a god upon his death, maybe starting a religion war with Belinik and Demihuman worshippers.

That is of course only my personal POV. I always thought that Anuireans would have worshipped Roele at a certain point in the Empire, since they already worship their ancient leaders as gods, maybe even the OG Dukes could have some lesser worship, Diem mostly.

masterdaorin

06-16-2023, 05:16 PM

Interesting points, especially:

This would give a linear explanation on some of the BR mythos: A lot of people were near the gods during Deiismaar, but only their leaders, the one most revered and spoken of, become gods upon their death. Maybe Raesene wasn't just liked enough or his betrayal has distanced the Andus from him. Also, ironically, the immortal Gorgon would need to die to become a god. I can see humanoids worship him as a god upon his death, maybe starting a religion war with Belinik and Demihuman worshippers.

That a scion has to die in order to become a god... I like it!

So, with a certain amount of blood, the willing act of death would transform the scion into a god.

Which is precisely why no one has achieved it since Deismaar...

I can work with those numbers, Witness... let me ponder...

The score should be higher than 100, though, me thinks...

Fizz

06-16-2023, 11:37 PM

So, sounds like you are thinking three requirements:

Bloodline Score of ____, to be determined. Certainly over 100. 150? 200?
Bloodline Strength must be True, as this determines the purity of the line.
Character has to shed their mortal frame (ie, die).

That doesn't sound unreasonable. Very difficult, as it should be, but not so much to be out of reach by sufficiently ambitious and powerful characters.

The question i would have with the last one is how they die. At Deismaar, the explosion infused the mortals all at once- the mortal frame "died" due to the intense infusion of divine energy causing the transformation. It doesn't seem right that a character could just reach the other prerequisites, then just kill themselves in some mundane fashion. I think there needs to be a significant infusion at the moment of death.

Thoughts?

-Fizz

masterdaorin

06-17-2023, 12:39 AM

I agree, on all counts.

I was just thinking that the death had to involve a noble sacrifice of some kind. Or, for evil scions, perhaps the hard pursuit of some destined vengeance. Not just anyone can become a god - it has to be epic... It's not just your death that matters, but how a scion dies. Certainly not for purely selfish reasons...

That is why, for example, though he probably does not realize it, after Michael Roele died, the Gorgon has lost his chance at becoming a god...

Kinda like a fate thing... hmm, that gives me an idea.

Sorontar

06-18-2023, 09:15 AM

Witness3

06-19-2023, 04:26 PM

That makes sense.

I would expect that they not only must have enough blood points and their regency must be significant, but their death must not be bloodtheft and their death must be public. From that, their death must affect the mental wellbeing of a large portion of the population - after all, you can't be a god/demigod unless people wish that you were with them, in the same way that potential Catholic saints have to be seem as the cause of miracles, not just good Catholics.

Sorontar

While a miracle should not be a difficult feat for a true 100+ bloodline, I love the idea that a scion should somehow be still alive inside people's hearts, bet it regency, songs, myths or spooky tales, to further the deification process. After all, what's the point of becoming a god if nobody worships you?

As for the death itself, I would think of 2 or 3 kinds of death, inspired by ancient Rome and greek myths:

The scion was so popular and famous in life that the myth and cult of his person had already surpassed the real person;
The scion's death was so epic that the gods are moved and make his spirit a god or a constellation (for non blooded or lesser bloodlines?);
The scion doesn't really die, but transcends the material plane. However, this may happen on solitary journey only, so everyone just assumes the scion died.

masterdaorin

06-19-2023, 10:30 PM

Right! But we need some game mechanics around that.

So, I'm making up a Fate mechanic and rules for it...

First, let me come up with a Bloodline score threshold... unless anyone already knows how much of a score it would take to have all the blood abilities of the most varied derivation (Azrai, I think)?

Magnus Argent

07-02-2023, 08:39 AM

Oh, I agree, but the point still stands that it seems to be possible. And, so, what is the threshold? I'm not so sure that it's so far out of reach that it isn't attainable... at least, no one (including the Gorgon) has realized where the goal posts really are...

My take is, that this is precisely the reason why everyone else fears the Gorgon (and the other 'great' awnsheghlien). Could the threshold really be not that far off?

On the contrary, perhaps this notion hasn't been stressed enough in Birthright...

Having a lower threshold might just crank up the tension - more-so than it being un-attainable...
Sorry if I'm a tad late to this conversation..

If one thinks in terms of 3.5th edition rules, where gods have Divine Ranks that range from 1-20, it isn't unreasonable to imagine scions as possessing small fractions of a single Divine Rank -- simply divide their bloodline strength by 100.

If one were to run with this notion, a scion with a bloodline strength of 35 would have 35% of a single Divine Rank and anyone attaining a bloodline strength of 100 would theoretically have divine power equivalent to that of a DR 1 demigod.

But raw divine energy isn't enough. The other component of becoming a god is the need to have worshipers who believe in your divinity.

The Gorgon may have acquired enough raw power to fuel an ascent to divinity but, despite his widespread infamy, he is feared as a mortal and as a monster, not as a god.

In contrast, the Serpent is actually worshiped as a god and, if rumors are true, he is actually able to grant his priests minor spells. The strength of his bloodline, combined with the faith of those who worship him, could very well be enough to grant him semi-divine status. Unfortunately (for him), the power of his divine bloodline just isn't strong enough to allow him to join the godly ranks as a true demigod.

It is also very possible, even if they managed to meet both conditions required for divine ascension, the curse inherent in all of Azrai's divine bloodlines might not permit an awnsheghlien from attaining godhood. I mean, it's called a curse for a reason, right? It could prevent such an occurrence simply by completing their transformation into a mindless beast (a fate suffered, I believe, by The Basilisk).

masterdaorin

07-04-2023, 05:51 PM

Osprey

07-06-2023, 06:51 AM

That's a good starting point. What 3.5 ed. supplement is that from?

Deities and Demigods

It's a pretty comprehensive "deity design" system, more thorough than anything else I've ever seen published for D&D. Years ago I read up on that system specifically to research this question (how might a scion ascend to godhood in Birthright?).

For folks' benefit, here's a breakdown of Divine Ranks from that system, with a webpage link for more info:

Divine Ranks

Each deity has a divine rank. A deity’s divine rank determines how much power the entity has.
Rank 0

Creatures of this rank are sometimes called quasi-deities or hero deities. Creatures that have a mortal and a deity as parents also fall into this category. These entities cannot grant spells, but are immortal and usually have one or more ability scores that are far above the norm for their species. They may have some worshipers. Ordinary mortals do not have a divine rank of 0. They lack a divine rank altogether.

Rank 1-5
These entities, called demigods, are the weakest of the deities. A demigod can grant spells and perform a few deeds that are beyond mortal limits. A demigod has anywhere from a few hundred to a few thousand devoted mortal worshipers and may receive veneration or respect from many more. A demigod controls a small godly realm (usually on an Outer Plane) and has minor control over a portfolio that includes one or more aspects of mortal existence. A demigod might be very accomplished in a single skill or a group of related skills, gain combat advantages in special circumstances, or be able to bring about minor changes in reality itself related to the portfolio.

Rank 6-10
Called lesser deities, these entities grant spells and can perform more powerful deeds than demigods can. Lesser deities have anywhere from a few thousand to tens of thousands of worshipers and control larger godly realms than demigods. They also have keener senses where their portfolios are concerned.

Rank 11-15
These entities are called intermediate deities. They have hundreds of thousands of mortal worshipers and control larger godly realms than demigods or lesser deities.

Rank 16-20
Called greater deities, these entities may have millions of mortal worshipers, and they command respect even among other deities. The most powerful of greater deities rule over other deities just as mortal sovereigns rule over commoners.

Rank 21+
These entities are beyond the ken of mortals and care nothing for worshipers. They do not grant spells, do not answer prayers, and do not respond to queries. If they are known at all, it is to a handful of scholars on the Material Plane. They are called overdeities. In some pantheistic systems, the consent of an overdeity is required to become a god.

Source: https://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm

Osprey

07-06-2023, 07:27 AM

I've thought about this question for a long time, but have only now noticed the forum thread - sorry for coming late to the discussion!

After reading up on everyone's thoughts, I had a few replies and thoughts to consider from my own point of view as a long-time student of history, folklore, and mythology:

Scions are living miracle workers, many with demonstrable divine powers that may separate them from their fellows. Those with bloodmarks and public displays of such power would be the most elevated and divine to the public view, and thus the most prone to worship while still alive. The closest equivalent from Earth would be to treat scions like Living Saints, but even this is problematic because of how common divine magic ("miracles") is on Aebrynis.

On Aebrynis, faith is wildly different than on Earth, because there are blooded scions and clerics, druids, paladins, rangers, and possibly other divine magic sources (such as Oracles), depending on the version of D&D one is using and integrating into the BR setting. So it's far easier to prove one's divine power in this setting than it is on Earth - and this makes Earth a pretty poor source of inspiration, where divine miracles really stand out as proof of divine favoritism or elevated status, whereas in Aebrynis well...you would stand out, but more I think as a member of an elite section of the populace, not as living saints. Clerics and other divine spellcasters cannot actually prove their powers come from deities, they just claim they do (something discussed in the BoP, and apparently debated in theological circles in Cerilia). This would make most magic-users look more similar than different to the common view, with the differences being noticeable more by presentation (clerical vestments, wizard robes, etc) than by provable means. Only other magic users, using spellcraft, detect magic, or more advanced divination, could really distinguish and educate people on the differences in magical types and sources.

So this begs the question: How good of an inspiration is Earth mythology for Birthright reality? Earth mythology/religion seems to be a lot of divinity ascribed after the fact, because stories grow with the telling and become larger than their real-life origins. I think this is the real-life reason saints, prophets, and others become (supposed) miracle workers and cult foci after they die more than while they live. After they are gone, it's a whole lot easier to convince people of the many miracles they performed than it is while folks are alive who can meet the person and test them for proof of miracles on the spot. This is just far, far different from the reality of people in the BR setting. To become a god in Birthright well...proof of miracles just wouldn't be nearly enough.

So from my point of view, sticking to the internal script of the Birthright setting seems to be the best model for examining the question of ascension to godhood, and using other D&D systems (like Deities and Demigods) or lore (like Forgotten Realms) might be other appropriate sources a DM could use (but I suspect many will not like as much for Birthright).

Osprey

07-06-2023, 07:34 AM

Sorry if I'm a tad late to this conversation..

If one thinks in terms of 3.5th edition rules, where gods have Divine Ranks that range from 1-20, it isn't unreasonable to imagine scions as possessing small fractions of a single Divine Rank -- simply divide their bloodline strength by 100.

If one were to run with this notion, a scion with a bloodline strength of 35 would have 35% of a single Divine Rank and anyone attaining a bloodline strength of 100 would theoretically have divine power equivalent to that of a DR 1 demigod.

But raw divine energy isn't enough. The other component of becoming a god is the need to have worshipers who believe in your divinity.

The Gorgon may have acquired enough raw power to fuel an ascent to divinity but, despite his widespread infamy, he is feared as a mortal and as a monster, not as a god.

In contrast, the Serpent is actually worshiped as a god and, if rumors are true, he is actually able to grant his priests minor spells. The strength of his bloodline, combined with the faith of those who worship him, could very well be enough to grant him semi-divine status. Unfortunately (for him), the power of his divine bloodline just isn't strong enough to allow him to join the godly ranks as a true demigod.

It is also very possible, even if they managed to meet both conditions required for divine ascension, the curse inherent in all of Azrai's divine bloodlines might not permit an awnsheghlien from attaining godhood. I mean, it's called a curse for a reason, right? It could prevent such an occurrence simply by completing their transformation into a mindless beast (a fate suffered, I believe, by The Basilisk).

I agree with all of this as a good model to work from, and as a fan of the 3e system, like the divine ranks as a way to give some kind of measurement of divine power when comparing one deity to another.

Most Scions in this system could probably qualify as Rank 0 quasi-deities in this system, although their powers are already spelled out in the bloodline system, which would replace anything ascribed in the Deities and Demigods system.

I tend to believe that a True scion could grant spells to worshipers even while alive. It's just a question of getting folks to worship them as gods, which could happen in different ways: Cult leaders and god-kings serve as good real-life examples we might use, where proof of divine power wasn't even needed - though who's to say what miracles were manufactured by Pharoahs, Emperors, and other rulers who demanded worship - and how much did people really believe in their godhood? It's hard to know, but the medieval era in Europe - the Age of Faith - at least gives us better evidence of just how literal and deep people's faith in the miraculous could be, mostly inspired by stories and sermons, and reinforced by the clergy as authorities saying "yes this is all true, believe us as we are the ones who really know things, ye ignorant masses.").

Based on this history, the average quality of education of the masses seems to be a deciding factor in just how quick they are to believe the claims of authority figures (of any type). I use this idea to guide my thinking on how likely a given population would be to deify someone.

In Khinasi, for example, where scholarship and truth in knowledge is highly prized, it would be pretty freakin' hard to convince people to worship you as a god. In Vosgard or Rjurik, it might be easier. Anuire and Brechtur would be more mixed, depending on which realm and social class we are talking about.

I think the most likely candidates for worship while alive would be the Ershegh, if any of them actually had a True bloodline. The mystery surrounding them would be a powerful factor in leading people to believe they might actually be gods who could grant them powers and bestow miracles upon them if properly appeased and worshiped.

People like the Anuirean Emperors might also have been worshiped as living demigods if they had so chosen; I believe they chose not to because Roele set a precedent in not wanting to compete with Haelyn and so divide the faith of the Empire. Plus, you know, he was actually there at Deismaar when his brother ascended and he did not...so there is that.

Osprey

07-06-2023, 09:02 AM

One other thing to note on this subject:
Recently I went back and studied the original 2e bloodline system in the core rulebook in careful detail, and made a pretty important realization:

Bloodline strength (tainted, minor, major, great, true) doesn't actually matter in that system, except as a general descriptor for a certain range of bloodline scores, and possibly by extension a descriptor used by Cerilian priests and scholars to compare and rank hereditary bloodlines and famous scions.

It was only in the BRCS 3e revision that these categories actually became hard power limits for bloodline abilities. In 2e, a minor scion could have major blood abilities with a lucky roll, and major scions could (and did) sometimes have great bloodline powers the same way (particularly awnshegh).

So what does it really take to gain a True bloodline in the original system? I would argue: a high-enough bloodline score. The only examples I know of from the original box set are Rhuobhe Manslayer and The Spider, both with a 95 Bloodline Score, and The Gorgon with a score of 100+ (no exact score was given in the original box set).

We really don't know how strong Roele and his descendants' bloodline scores were, as the one other set of True scions we know of existing in Cerilia.

Other high bloodline scores from the original material, for comparison:
The Seadrake (Great, 80)

If we take Blood Enemies as canon (in which awnshegh bloodline strengths range from Tainted to True bloodline strength, and the bloodline scores do not exactly line up with the corebook strength/score ranges), we get:
Leviathan (True, 85)
The Raven (True, 77)
The Serpent (True, 77)

So True Bloodlines seem to be around 75+ bloodline score, but as the Seadrake shows, an 80 bloodline score can still not be a True bloodline.

What then grants a True bloodline other than gaining one from the Battle of Deismaar, or somehow preserving one from then? And would this be enough, or even matter, if achieving godhood, as it seems a True bloodline might really be "the closest a scion can come to godhood without actually achieving it?"

As far as we know, the only gods in Cerilia are the ones who became gods at Deismaar, and the 3 children born to those gods in the centuries following, all of whom are considered lesser deities (and I wonder, is this because the 2nd generation of gods are automatically born weaker than their parents, or because they do not yet have enough worshipers?).

The only weird exception that seems to defy hard rules is The Cold Rider. He might actually be the best original example of a being becoming a god, though the origins and reasons for this seem to be intentionally obscure so that DMs can make up their own interpretations.

Fizz

07-08-2023, 02:36 AM

As far as we know, the only gods in Cerilia are the ones who became gods at Deismaar, and the 3 children born to those gods in the centuries following, all of whom are considered lesser deities

I don't think that is true. The dwarves have a pantheon led by Moradin, the goblins have Kartathok, the orogs follow Torazan. The giants and other races may have their own as well. None of them were born at Deismaar.

The only weird exception that seems to defy hard rules is The Cold Rider. He might actually be the best original example of a being becoming a god, though the origins and reasons for this seem to be intentionally obscure so that DMs can make up their own interpretations.

Well, The Cold Rider is essentially Azrai (or at least his essence), slowing regenerating in the Shadow World. So yeah he defies the usual rules... always such the rebel... heh. He never wasn't a god, he's just been "disintigrated" for the moment. But yes, i'm sure such details were deliberately meant to be obscure.

-Fizz

masterdaorin

07-08-2023, 10:15 PM

Deities and Demigods

It's a pretty comprehensive "deity design" system, more thorough than anything else I've ever seen published for D&D. Years ago I read up on that system specifically to research this question (how might a scion ascend to godhood in Birthright?).[/URL]

Very helpful, thank you!

I'll start with the premise that a Divine Rank of 1 starts at a Bloodline Score of 200, or something like that.

Let me ponder...

masterdaorin

07-08-2023, 10:29 PM

masterdaorin

07-08-2023, 10:42 PM

Scions are living miracle workers, many with demonstrable divine powers that may separate them from their fellows. Those with bloodmarks and public displays of such power would be the most elevated and divine to the public view, and thus the most prone to worship while still alive. The closest equivalent from Earth would be to treat scions like Living Saints, but even this is problematic because of how common divine magic ("miracles") is on Aebrynis.

On Aebrynis, faith is wildly different than on Earth, because there are blooded scions and clerics, druids, paladins, rangers, and possibly other divine magic sources (such as Oracles), depending on the version of D&D one is using and integrating into the BR setting. So it's far easier to prove one's divine power in this setting than it is on Earth - and this makes Earth a pretty poor source of inspiration, where divine miracles really stand out as proof of divine favoritism or elevated status, whereas in Aebrynis well...you would stand out, but more I think as a member of an elite section of the populace, not as living saints. Clerics and other divine spellcasters cannot actually prove their powers come from deities, they just claim they do (something discussed in the BoP, and apparently debated in theological circles in Cerilia). This would make most magic-users look more similar than different to the common view, with the differences being noticeable more by presentation (clerical vestments, wizard robes, etc) than by provable means. Only other magic users, using spellcraft, detect magic, or more advanced divination, could really distinguish and educate people on the differences in magical types and sources.

I'm also of the opinion that, much like on Earth, bigotry and hate would win out over any sort of idealism about how much better life would be in this setting compared to the real world. So, I'm more of the opinion that Earth *could* be a good comparison for such.

I would bet my travelling boots that the religions of this setting would definitely have something to say about this aspect of their world.

They would also be careful to... how shall we say... be the guardians of just what constitutes authentic miracles and such.

I guarantee that the churches and priests would also be a lot more fire and brimstone about what bloodlines mean, and how society is to conduct itself when a scion is discovered to be someone of that stature, and all that entails.

And, because of that, I'm willing to bet that families of scions are much more careful about how their members display such obvious aspects of divinity... especially when they have enemies willing to brand them as "outsiders", "demons", "sorcerers and witches", etc.

masterdaorin

07-08-2023, 10:48 PM

I think the most likely candidates for worship while alive would be the Ershegh, if any of them actually had a True bloodline. The mystery surrounding them would be a powerful factor in leading people to believe they might actually be gods who could grant them powers and bestow miracles upon them if properly appeased and worshiped.

Yup. However, other than the Serpent, none of these class of scion is implied as being able to grant divine spells.

I have to conclude, based on the fact that some people at Deismaar ascended to godhood, and most did not, that the amount of divine bloodpower is a factor in whether a scion can become a god, regardless of actual worship or not.

masterdaorin

07-08-2023, 10:57 PM

Fizz

07-08-2023, 11:12 PM

Yup. However, other than the Serpent, none of these class of scion is implied as being able to grant divine spells.
That assumes that the Serpent is the one actually doing the granting, and not serving as a figurehead for some other deity. That is my personal preferred take on it, but it's deliberately left vague.

I would think that strength implies "purity" of divinity. Whatever that means...
I like to think of it via this analogy. Beer is typically ~8% alcohol by volume. Whiskey is typically ~50%. So ~6 beers is the same as 1 whiskey in terms of total alcohol content (blood score), but whiskey will behave differently than beer from a chemical standpoint because it has a higher abv (blood strength).

Very good point. It would seem to be the former. My take: The gods don't have mortal bodies anymore... so they need to "give of themselves" to create another god. Rather than the biological way, which seems to self-generate this divinity.
But remember there are gods other than those from Deismaar; Moradin, Kartathok, Torazan, etc. So how would they fit in? Or perhaps they follow different rules because they are not of Deismaar. ?

-Fizz

masterdaorin

07-10-2023, 09:38 PM

That assumes that the Serpent is the one actually doing the granting, and not serving as a figurehead for some other deity. That is my personal preferred take on it, but it's deliberately left vague.

I, too, have written it that the Serpent is simply using his skill at deception to fool those who worship him. The priesthoods' actual power comes from the true god of serpents...

I also have written it that the Serpent actually believes his own hype...

But remember there are gods other than those from Deismaar; Moradin, Kartathok, Torazan, etc. So how would they fit in? Or perhaps they follow different rules because they are not of Deismaar. ?

The old gods got their divinity from creation.

Deismaar gave the world a new vision of what is possible... because six of the old gods (the most powerful?) decided to sacrifice themselves for the good of the world.

masterdaorin

07-10-2023, 09:42 PM

A very interesting question is: can the worship of a god's believers actually increase their Divine Rank, by choice?

Much like RP and Bloodline Scores...

That's why I'm thinking only regents can ascend to godhood, not just any scion... and probably why no one has figured it out yet...

Magnus Argent

07-11-2023, 04:48 AM

AndrewTall

07-12-2023, 11:02 AM

I can never remember if spell-casting clerics and druids being rare was my house rule, or was canon, wizards were certainly noted as only a few hundred continent wide but even then magicians were more common. Magic-rare but powerful is a fairly common theme though, so I suspect that it might not be as hard to prove godhood rather than mere spellcasting via bloodlines as was suggested.

It is worth noting that even the Khinasi are deeply ignorant compared to the people of today, and that it is commonplace for minor (and even not so minor) religious cults to identify miracles for their followers in today's world despite the advance of science - or for that matter the number of people who manage to sell miracle cures and whatnot 'ignored by science' - in an era where gods are real the populace will be far less skeptical of claims of divinity, not more - the tolerance of the local religions to such claims is however in my view likely to be even less than their historical real world counter-parts.

The lack of substance behind the bloodline strength in the original 2e was always a bit odd to me, like it was there but got cut out while editing, but perhaps it was meant to be some sort of limitation on PC's in a way that the score was not if the actual strength (tainted, weak, etc) could not be altered?

Alternatively perhaps the strength refers to how in tune the scion is with the ideals of the old god, so a high score and low strength would indicate someone who does not behave in accordance with the blood-line's originator (the scion fights their nature) and a high strength would indicate that they personify it (or at least an aspect of it).

I agree that the various religions are going to be very keen on controlling bloodtheft (generally being against with various exceptions which suit their code of ethics and power interests), I don't see bloodline being accepted as a commodity to be traded or stolen even in Brechtur.

Osprey

07-13-2023, 11:36 AM

It's interesting to me so many folks think bloodtheft would be taboo. My 1st Birthright campaign run for other players was using the BRCS, so I think my reasoning on this was guided by that system, where some form of bloodtheft was guaranteed if you killed a scion in melee combat. So it made sense to me that if scions knew they would release blood power killing another scion in combat - and knowing how war has become commonplace in much or most of Cerilia - it stood to reason that warrior scions would naturally want to get the most out of such victories. So I came to assume that if a scion is killed or executed by another scion, death by piercing through the heart was actually the preferred method when fighting one-on-one. I have also had it used and justified when victorious rebels have executed tyrannical regents (Jaison Raenech, Carilon Alam, and Mheallie Bireon have all died this way in several of my games).

Rather opposite a lot of folks' reasoning on this as it turns out. :rolleyes::D
But oh well, it's how I've run 3 campaigns now, so it's pretty ingrained in my versions of Cerilia. I have always believed it's all about the public presentation and trial for justifying bloodtheft in executions, and at least in Anuire, the land of righteous warfare, I have always thought there would be a certain acceptance of bloodtheft as a natural consequence of violence on the battlefield, and even as a deserved prize for victory over one's blooded foes.

That being said, I do understand the counter points of view, being similar to Earth medieval chivalric ideas that nobles should be captured not killed on the battlefield whenever there is a choice in the matter. Although history says there were a hell of a lot of executions of nobles even when they were captured, because that's the only sure way to end rival claims to the titles often being fought over.

Like everything, at the end of the day it's the DM's choice, but the one thing I have always felt strongly about is that I never wanted Birthright's religion to be too much like medieval Europe. I just feel that polytheism is so different from monotheism in thought and practice that we can't use medieval churches as a good basis for Cerilian ones - I think we need to imagine something more different. Perhaps even the original BR authors were limited in this, given they made every church have one patron deity instead of a pantheon at its focus. It's almost an assumption that humans are always going to want to be monotheistic, which I find a little silly for a setting where people are certain there is a pantheon of many gods.

Osprey

07-13-2023, 12:12 PM

Have you ever checked the numbers presented in the Book of Priestcraft? More specifically , have you ever checked to see if the total number of temple holdings devoted to a god has any correlation to the power of said god?

Here are some observations I've made:

There seems to be a certain threshold required to be considered an Intermediate God (in terms of number of temple holding levels). Lesser Gods don't meet that threshold.

The difference between Greater and Intermediate Gods seems to be a the requirement of cultural patronage. Greater Deities have 50% or more of their temples in one specific culture who regards them as their patron deity.

The Gorgon has 0 temple holdings dedicated to him. He is not considered semi-divine.

The Serpent and the Kracken both have followers who worship them as gods. They are both considered semi-divine and their priests cast low level divine spells.

Again, these are observations, not interpretations.

I have also noticed the correlation between scale of worship and power of the deities. I always assumed Haelyn was a greater deity because the Anuirean Empire promoted his worship among more people for a longer time than any other deity (by far!).

Avani might be the second most-worshipped deity in terms of numbers of followers, although I'm not sure how good of figures we have on actual population numbers in Cerilia. I suspect Anuirean populations are much larger than other region, with Khinasi being second and Brechtur third. But that's a rough guess.

At some point I just decided as a DM that the human Cerilian deities' power is directly related to their scale of worship.
I like the idea that private practice matters: every prayer uttered with real devotion would have some meaning, as would actions performed with reverence and faith, and lives lived in service to a deity and their ideals.

But of course on Aebrynis, regent-led temples would matter a great deal as well, and are the easiest way to measure how much the general population worships a deity.

So in my world a deity's power might wax and wane over the years as their popularity rises or falls. Their realms are based in the Shadow World, and like all things there, this ebb and flow may not always be happening in real-time. There could be long delays in the decay of a god's power (partly because the realms they built insulate them from the physical world and its effects, but also probably dull their awareness of that world as well if they are not intentionally focused on some part of it. This was another way I explained their seeming callousness about the misdeeds of their priests and followers. It's all a bit distant and disconnected most of the time, and most mortal lifespans seem short to an immortal deity. All of the new gods are now 1200-1500+ years old, yet most are humans-turned-into-gods, with all the pros and cons of that heritage. Thus I tend to make them like I imagine humans given immortality and great powers would be...more and more indifferent, self-absorbed, and detached over time. The three children - Cuiraecen, Laerme, and Eloele - might be the most dynamic and interesting of the gods, because they were never human. So I play them as the most directly interested in humans, constantly wanting to know what it's like to be one.).

All of this is playing out in my current campaign, now gone epic in scale, as the Stormlord - a powerful scion of Anduiras - has elevated the Militant Order of Cuiraecen to become the largest and most powerful temple in Anuire (and Cerilia). It has absorbed Laerme as a co-patron, and then expanded to include the entire non-evil pantheon as it has swallowed up the WIT and CJS in the Heartlands of Anuire. It's also the patron temple of the new kingdom of Cunuire emerging that is uniting much of Anuire beneath the Duchess of Tuornen.

The Stormlord has achieved a true bloodline of Anduiras - gained though the bloodtheft of Rhuobhe Manslayer without succumbing to Azrai's corruption. He is very much like a living saint in the world (having long life so he does not seem to age doesn't hurt), revered by hundreds of thousands of people - but as a paladin of Cuiraecen, the peoples' ultimate reverence has been focused upon his deity, as well as Laerme, the patron of his wife, the Queen of Cunuire.

Now I have Cuiraecen and Laerme finally getting married as well...playing out the theme that the gigantic pressure of the faithful - and their two greatest worshippers - from the mortal world translates into the gods' realms. These 2 deities are not only uniting in marriage and purpose, they are growing in strength. I have them ready to ascend to become intermediate deities upon their wedding day, an event they plan to mark by creating their own new realm in the heavens. This will further shake up the celestial order since Cuiraecen will be leaving Haelynir(!), and no longer serve as Haelyn's herald and champion. He's not usurping Haelyn's seat directly - but he'll have his own realm now, and become an independent power in the pantheon.

The consequence of this is of course that Haelyn's power will weaken. I don't know if this would be enough to reduce him to intermediate status - I still think he would remain at least as strong as Avani in terms of worshipers across the continent. But it might easily cost him a few divine ranks at least.

Fizz

07-18-2023, 03:10 AM

Magnus Argent

07-18-2023, 06:35 AM

I think the notion that number of followers increases a deity's power is nonsensical (or at a minimum, not the whole story). There may be a correlation but the causation is actually reversed.

Consider, why would one worship a deity? The answer is that there is tangible evidence of the deity's power. There's no point in worshipping a deity if they don't grant any powers. So if no one is worshipping the deity, how would the deity ever gain the powers to justify their worship?

For example, Cuiraecen was "born" after Deismaar. When he first came into existence, no one worshipped him (how could anyone, he didn't exist). And with no worshippers, he'd have no powers. And with no powers, why would anyone worship him? Thus he'd be stuck as a powerless deity.

Thus i think the deities' power levels must be predominantly intrinsic. People tend to follow the more powerful leaders. As a result, the causation of the correlation is the deity's power. That is, follower count increases because the deity is more powerful. It is not because the deity becomes more powerful with more followers. Haelyn has the most followers because he is the most powerful deity.

Obviously there is more to deity choice than just power (alignment, culture etc play roles). And like any pantheon, the deities are not worshipped in isolation; they are worshipped for different things by the same people. Soldiers pray to Haelyn to conduct themselves honorably, but pray to Cuiraecen for victory, and then those same soldiers pray to Nesirie when mourning their fallen comrades, etc etc. So any attempt at counting followers is complicated by significant overlap.

-Fizz
I'm sorry but your opinions just aren't in agreement with published AD&D material (Legends & Lore and the Birthright core rule book, specifically). Both state unequivocally that a god is empowered by his mortal worshipers. If you believe the notion that a god gains power from his followers is nonsensical, the Birthright setting may require you to employ a certain degree of suspension of disbelief.

As to the Cuiraecen example, I'm not sure it holds water. The notion of a "powerless god" is a bit of an oxymoron, isn't it? I can think of any number of reasons why he might have had worshipers prior to his "birth". Perhaps Neserie's priests read certain omens that foretold his coming. Or maybe Haelyn sent one of his avatars to herald the news of his birth. Does that make the notion a little more sensical?

Regarding how one determines the relative size of a god's body of followers.. regardless of cause and effect, temple holdings would appear to do just that, do they not?

Fizz

07-18-2023, 12:16 PM

I'm sorry but your opinions just aren't in agreement with published AD&D material (Legends & Lore and the Birthright core rule book, specifically). Both state unequivocally that a god is empowered by his mortal worshipers.

I'm less concerned about what Legends & Lore (2nd ed) says (though it only says "gods need worshippers", and does not make any mention of empowerment or correlation of power to followers). But where is it stated in the Birthright material? It does not seem to be stated in the Core Rulebook or Book of Priestcraft.

If you believe the notion that a god gains power from his followers is nonsensical, the Birthright setting may require you to employ a certain degree of suspension of disbelief.

It may indeed, if it states such. :)

As to the Cuiraecen example, I'm not sure it holds water. The notion of a "powerless god" is a bit of an oxymoron, isn't it?

Yes it is oxymoronic, and that's exactly my point. But it's the logical conclusion that arises if one accepts that gods are powered by followers.

This thread was largely about whether a blooded being could eventually ascend to godhood through their bloodline. The vast majority of blooded beings (both monsters people) even witih strong bloodlines and powers are not worshipped as gods. If a bloodline is the essence of the gods, both scions and gods are powered by the same "stuff". So why then would gods need followers but blooded characters do not?

Note i'm not saying that followers can't play a role, just that there must be something more intrinsic to godly power.

Regarding how one determines the relative size of a god's body of followers.. regardless of cause and effect, temple holdings would appear to do just that, do they not?

Yes, temple holdings are a way we quantify it at the domain level. But my point was that an actual count greatly depends on how one defines "follower". In my soldier example, is the soldier a follower of Haelyn, of Cuiraecen, of Nesirie, or all three? Or does it count as a follower at all; must one be completely dedicated to just one god and eschew others to be counted?

-Fizz

Magnus Argent

07-18-2023, 10:01 PM

I'm less concerned about what Legends & Lore (2nd ed) says (though it only says "gods need worshippers", and does not make any mention of empowerment or correlation of power to followers). But where is it stated in the Birthright material? It does not seem to be stated in the Core Rulebook or Book of Priestcraft.

It may indeed, if it states such. :)

Yes it is oxymoronic, and that's exactly my point. But it's the logical conclusion that arises if one accepts that gods are powered by followers.

This thread was largely about whether a blooded being could eventually ascend to godhood through their bloodline. The vast majority of blooded beings (both monsters people) even witih strong bloodlines and powers are not worshipped as gods. If a bloodline is the essence of the gods, both scions and gods are powered by the same "stuff". So why then would gods need followers but blooded characters do not?

Note i'm not saying that followers can't play a role, just that there must be something more intrinsic to godly power.

Yes, temple holdings are a way we quantify it at the domain level. But my point was that an actual count greatly depends on how one defines "follower". In my soldier example, is the soldier a follower of Haelyn, of Cuiraecen, of Nesirie, or all three? Or does it count as a follower at all; must one be completely dedicated to just one god and eschew others to be counted?

-Fizz
Actually, Legends & Lore directly addresses the conditions that must be met in order for a hero to ascend to Demigod status. One of those conditions requires you to have a body of [no fewer than] 200 followers who already regard you virtually as a demigod already.

Like provinces and other types of holdings, temple holdings are an abstract way of determining followers. That's just how the setting was written.

As for the Birthright Core rulebook, I'm looking at the section that defines Regency. "Something in the semi-divine blood of a noble scion responds to the allegiance of his followers in the same way that a true deity gains strength from worshippers."

I've already addressed the flaw in your logical conclusion but since you omitted it when quoting me, I suspect you knew that already.

You may very well be correct when you say there could be something intrinsic about the power of someone who is born a god. You are certainly correct when you say that the topic of *this* conversation is about ascension.

I should like to remind you that no one ever said that having a body of followers is the only requirement to ascend to godhood. I previously suggested there is likely a twofold requirement having to do with Bloodline Score and worshippers.

But Legend & Lore doesn't state the need for a divine spark or a divine bloodline whatsoever in order to ascend and Book of Priestcraft only discusses gods who have already ascended.

Here's a thought -- could it be that that divine ascension and bloodline strength are two completely unrelated topics?

Fizz

07-18-2023, 11:32 PM

Actually, Legends & Lore directly addresses the conditions that must be met in order for a hero to ascend to Demigod status. One of those conditions requires you to have a body of [no fewer than] 200 followers who already regard you virtually as a demigod already.

Yes, but that is for ascension. It says nothing about whether a deity's power increases with number of followers. I don't think it is stated anywhere that greater deities require more followers. Haelyn can be the most powerful deity even if he doesn't have the most followers. (And for the record, i don't have a problem with that notion that ascension requires some followers. )

In fact, Legends & Lore discusses that deities do lots of things outside of their followers; that to a deity, humanoids are like ants are to us. A deity has a life outside of their followers, as we do outside of our ant farm. A deity may be able to increase their power separately from humanoid influence.

As for the Birthright Core rulebook, I'm looking at the section that defines Regency. "Something in the semi-divine blood of a noble scion responds to the allegiance of his followers in the same way that a true deity gains strength from worshippers."

OK, but that's again different from saying more followers leads to a more powerful deity. "Gains strength" is vague. It doesn't say that more followers makes a deity more powerful. It could simply mean that worshippers are a form of nourishment for the deity. (Just as humans need to eat protein, but one doesn't grow more powerful by eating an excessive amount of meat.)

Moradin is considered a greater deity, and yet the dwarves are far less numerous than humans. So how does one reconcile that? The number of followers must be a comparitively minor factor to the power of a deity.

So i'm just not seeing the "both state unequivocally that a god is empowered by his mortal worshipers". Worshippers are not meaningless, but a god doesn't require them.

I've already addressed the flaw in your logical conclusion but since you omitted it when quoting me, I suspect you knew that already.

You gave a plausible way that Cuiraecen could have some interest if not full followers when he was "born". But that suggests that no new god could come into existence unless previous gods announced it. That then raises the question, how did the first gods (before Deismaar) have powers? The gods existed and had power before there was anyone to worship them. So i don't see how it addresses a "flaw" in my earlier conclusion.

You may very well be correct when you say there could be something intrinsic about the power of someone who is born a god. You are certainly correct when you say that the topic of *this* conversation is about ascension.

Not just about the particular being ascending to godhood, but an intrinsic nature of godhood itself. Sure deities can gain from followers, but they don't need followers to exist. That's the bit i was worried was being suggested.

I should like to remind you that no one ever said that having a body of followers is the only requirement to ascend to godhood. I previously suggested there is likely a twofold requirement having to do with Bloodline Score and worshippers.

When i brought up the follower-power aspect it wasn't related to ascension. In the thread it was suggested that follower count is a major factor in the power of the deity. For example, that Haelyn might be reduced to an intermediate god if he lost followers. That's the part with which i disagreed, as it could lead to a snowball effect (less followers means less power, which leads to fewer followers, and even less power, etc etc) where the deity could evaporate from existence. And i just don't buy that.

I think we're actually largely in agreement: Being a god isn't just about followers, but followers can play a role. We probably only differ in terms of relative importance. :)

Here's a thought -- could it be that that divine ascension and bloodline strength are two completely unrelated topics?

Well that would throw a wrench into this topic. LOL.

-Fizz

Magnus Argent

07-19-2023, 01:52 AM

Yes, but that is for ascension. It says nothing about whether a deity's power increases with number of followers. I don't think it is stated anywhere that greater deities require more followers. Haelyn can be the most powerful deity even if he doesn't have the most followers. (And for the record, i don't have a problem with that notion that ascension requires some followers. )

In fact, Legends & Lore discusses that deities do lots of things outside of their followers; that to a deity, humanoids are like ants are to us. A deity has a life outside of their followers, as we do outside of our ant farm. A deity may be able to increase their power separately from humanoid influence.

OK, but that's again different from saying more followers leads to a more powerful deity. "Gains strength" is vague. It doesn't say that more followers makes a deity more powerful. It could simply mean that worshippers are a form of nourishment for the deity. (Just as humans need to eat protein, but one doesn't grow more powerful by eating an excessive amount of meat.)

Moradin is considered a greater deity, and yet the dwarves are far less numerous than humans. So how does one reconcile that? The number of followers must be a comparitively minor factor to the power of a deity.

So i'm just not seeing the "both state unequivocally that a god is empowered by his mortal worshipers". Worshippers are not meaningless, but a god doesn't require them.

You gave a plausible way that Cuiraecen could have some interest if not full followers when he was "born". But that suggests that no new god could come into existence unless previous gods announced it. That then raises the question, how did the first gods (before Deismaar) have powers? The gods existed and had power before there was anyone to worship them. So i don't see how it addresses a "flaw" in my earlier conclusion.

Not just about the particular being ascending to godhood, but an intrinsic nature of godhood itself. Sure deities can gain from followers, but they don't need followers to exist. That's the bit i was worried was being suggested.

When i brought up the follower-power aspect it wasn't related to ascension. In the thread it was suggested that follower count is a major factor in the power of the deity. For example, that Haelyn might be reduced to an intermediate god if he lost followers. That's the part with which i disagreed, as it could lead to a snowball effect (less followers means less power, which leads to fewer followers, and even less power, etc etc) where the deity could evaporate from existence. And i just don't buy that.

I think we're actually largely in agreement: Being a god isn't just about followers, but followers can play a role. We probably only differ in terms of relative importance. :)

Well that would throw a wrench into this topic. LOL.

-Fizz

Are you saying that regents gain nourishment from their followers?

Can you cite any source material that outright states that a deity's power level is static? Or is this simply your opinion?

Fizz

07-19-2023, 02:01 AM

Are you saying that regents gain nourishment from their followers?

Not necessarily. It was purely a hypothetical alternative interpretation of the phrase "a true deity gains strength from worshippers" (which has a vague meaning).

Can you cite any source material that outright states that a deity's power level is static? Or is this simply your opinion?

I'm not saying that a deity's power level is static. I'm saying that (based on available evidence) the number of followers has a minor impact upon the deity's power; a deity can still exist and be powerful without followers.

-Fizz

Magnus Argent

07-19-2023, 08:58 AM

Not necessarily. It was purely a hypothetical alternative interpretation of the phrase "a true deity gains strength from worshippers" (which has a vague meaning).

I'm not saying that a deity's power level is static. I'm saying that (based on available evidence) the number of followers has a minor impact upon the deity's power; a deity can still exist and be powerful without followers.

-Fizz

It's only vague because half of the sentence being quoted was omitted ;)

In regards to the topic of this thread -- divine ascension in the Birthright setting -- according to the rules (AD&D 2nd edition Legends & Lore, pg 10), you need followers. As always, DMs have every right to tweak a rules or ignore it altogether if it doesn't fit in their campaign.

Fizz

07-19-2023, 12:49 PM

It's only vague because half of the sentence being quoted was omitted ;)
Nah, even with the full sentence it is not clear what is meant. It says nothing about a follower count / power correlation. It reads more like color text, not a defined rule. It's certainly not an unequivocal statement. :)

In regards to the topic of this thread -- divine ascension in the Birthright setting -- according to the rules (AD&D 2nd edition Legends & Lore, pg 10), you need followers. As always, DMs have every right to tweak a rules or ignore it altogether if it doesn't fit in their campaign.

It does, but as i said previously what you cite is for ascension only. It has nothing to do with count / power correlation.

Since you are keen on referring to L&L, check out page 162.

Death does not wish to have followers or priests. Because of this, when persons decide to declare themselves as his agents on Nehwon, Death sends his avatar to claim them for his own and they are never seen again.

Behold, proof that gods do not need any followers / worshippers to exist or exert power. :)

-Fizz

Magnus Argent

07-19-2023, 05:00 PM

Nah, even with the full sentence it is not clear what is meant. It says nothing about a follower count / power correlation. It reads more like color text, not a defined rule. It's certainly not an unequivocal statement. :)

It does, but as i said previously what you cite is for ascension only. It has nothing to do with count / power correlation.

Since you are keen on referring to L&L, check out page 162.

Death does not wish to have followers or priests. Because of this, when persons decide to declare themselves as his agents on Nehwon, Death sends his avatar to claim them for his own and they are never seen again.

Behold, proof that gods do not need any followers / worshippers to exist or exert power. :)

-Fizz
Just because death doesn't want worshippers doesn't mean that people don't honor him anyway. Regardless, page 155: "the number of worshippers a god has dictates the amount of power they have." I'd call that pretty unequivocal.

I want to make clear that I'm not saying your views and opinions aren't unreasonable in terms of cosmological viability (a courtesy that I certainly wasn't given). They just don't apply to the Birthright campaign setting in this particular instance.

If you want to discuss further, perhaps create a new thread or feel free to PM me. :)

Fizz

07-19-2023, 06:11 PM

Just because death doesn't want worshippers doesn't mean that people don't honor him anyway. Regardless, page 155: "the number of worshippers a god has dictates the amount of power they have." I'd call that pretty unequivocal.

Interesting, well spotted. However that sentence begins with "This is a world where", specifically referring to Nehwon. So it is certainly unequivocal for Nehwon, but not all settings. If that concept were meant to apply to all deities and settings in general, it would be mentioned elsewhere in the book (probably the intro chapter), and not just under the Nehwon chapter. So i think that sentence actually strengthens my position.

I want to make clear that I'm not saying your views and opinions aren't unreasonable in terms of cosmological viability (a courtesy that I certainly wasn't given). They just don't apply to the Birthright campaign setting in this particular instance.

Well, i'm still not convinced that they don't apply to Birthright. You've made some decent points, and i've tried to play devil's advocate on those. But i have not seen an unequivocal statement in the Birthright material about the importance of followers to deity power. But there is also direct evidence to the contrary. I think the strongest of those is still Moradin: he's a greater god but has among the fewest number of followers on the continent. If follower count is so vital, how can Moradin be a greater god?

Don't misunderstand me- i don't ever mean to imply that people can't do what they want in their own game. It is a game after all, and what matters most is making a good story and having fun. This is a fantasy world, and much of what happens doesn't make sense. So while i find the causation of the follower/power correlation dubious, i agree with something you said earlier- that suspension of disbelief is not a bad thing. :)

-Fizz

Fizz

07-19-2023, 06:22 PM

To get back to the core question of whether mortals can ascend to godhood... i had a few thoughts...

Let's suppose a high-powered character (say the Gorgon), meets all the requirements to ascend to godhood. We've established they would need a True Bloodline, a very high Bloodline score (300?), and possibly a small army of followers.

So the Gorgon ascends to demigod status... then what?

How does he continue to ascend to a lesser / intermediate / greater god from there?

If followers is a requirement, what happens if his followers were wiped out (say in a battle), or dropped below the minimum required for ascension (say to 199 from the proposed 200 minimum)? Would he become mortal again?

If using L&L, as a demigod he could now grant spells up to 5th level. Are his followers all immediately his priests? Or only special agents he chooses?

Does bloodtheft still do anything for him?

Even if bloodtheft no longer helps him, what's stopping him from just immediately teleporting to all the strongest blooded characters in the world, taking their bloodline (a mortal has no chance against a demigod) and ultimately taking all the bloodlines, thereby ending bloodlines across Cerilia as we know it?

It would seem that the Gorgon achieving demigod status would be a very very bad thing for Cerilia... heh.

-Fizz

masterdaorin

07-22-2023, 10:19 PM

masterdaorin

07-22-2023, 10:24 PM

I can never remember if spell-casting clerics and druids being rare was my house rule, or was canon, wizards were certainly noted as only a few hundred continent wide but even then magicians were more common. Magic-rare but powerful is a fairly common theme though, so I suspect that it might not be as hard to prove godhood rather than mere spellcasting via bloodlines as was suggested.

It is worth noting that even the Khinasi are deeply ignorant compared to the people of today, and that it is commonplace for minor (and even not so minor) religious cults to identify miracles for their followers in today's world despite the advance of science - or for that matter the number of people who manage to sell miracle cures and whatnot 'ignored by science' - in an era where gods are real the populace will be far less skeptical of claims of divinity, not more - the tolerance of the local religions to such claims is however in my view likely to be even less than their historical real world counter-parts.

I would dispute that claim. Remember, in the real world, people actually believed magic was real and that gods existed. They actually believed it all, no matter what we think of today.

We must be careful to separate our own biases when we look at these things, even when we are only discussing a fantasy world.

I am willing to argue that the people of Cerilia would behave very similarly to what occurred in actual historical context, if we are willing to suspend our disbelief in the obvious fantastical elements of such discussion.

masterdaorin

07-22-2023, 10:31 PM

Like everything, at the end of the day it's the DM's choice, but the one thing I have always felt strongly about is that I never wanted Birthright's religion to be too much like medieval Europe. I just feel that polytheism is so different from monotheism in thought and practice that we can't use medieval churches as a good basis for Cerilian ones - I think we need to imagine something more different. Perhaps even the original BR authors were limited in this, given they made every church have one patron deity instead of a pantheon at its focus. It's almost an assumption that humans are always going to want to be monotheistic, which I find a little silly for a setting where people are certain there is a pantheon of many gods.

Well that's the thing - I think that it is a fault of the gamers of this system that makes that assumption, not the source material itself.

The setting does state that a pantheon of gods is worshipped - I see no indication of a monotheistic bent.

And this actually makes sense when you look at the data. Consider, for example, Laerme. She is much more widely worshipped than what the source material would indicate, at face value. She is worshipped in her mother's temples... and her father's temples. It's just that these paternalistic (or maternalistic) churches stress the importance of their chief god over the others, for obvious reasons: control and propaganda.

The same applies to Nesirie, for example. I don't think her temples are ONLY about her. I'm willing to argue that her temples are actually temples devoted to Haelyn, or Avani, but that she is merely the central focus of said temples... makes sense in the context of the cultures that support these temples.

masterdaorin

07-22-2023, 10:33 PM

Thus i think the deities' power levels must be predominantly intrinsic. People tend to follow the more powerful leaders. As a result, the causation of the correlation is the deity's power. That is, follower count increases because the deity is more powerful. It is not because the deity becomes more powerful with more followers. Haelyn has the most followers because he is the most powerful deity.

Obviously there is more to deity choice than just power (alignment, culture etc play roles). And like any pantheon, the deities are not worshipped in isolation; they are worshipped for different things by the same people. Soldiers pray to Haelyn to conduct themselves honorably, but pray to Cuiraecen for victory, and then those same soldiers pray to Nesirie when mourning their fallen comrades, etc etc. So any attempt at counting followers is complicated by significant overlap.

-Fizz

That is the conclusion I have drawn so far...

masterdaorin

07-22-2023, 10:34 PM

Here's a thought -- could it be that that divine ascension and bloodline strength are two completely unrelated topics?

I do not think so. In fact, this thread has proven to me that they are directly related.

Deismaar proved that. It's been staring at me in the face all this time... :)

masterdaorin

07-22-2023, 10:40 PM

To get back to the core question of whether mortals can ascend to godhood... i had a few thoughts...

Let's suppose a high-powered character (say the Gorgon), meets all the requirements to ascend to godhood. We've established they would need a True Bloodline, a very high Bloodline score (300?), and possibly a small army of followers.

So the Gorgon ascends to demigod status... then what?

How does he continue to ascend to a lesser / intermediate / greater god from there?

That is the question. And I believe that the answer has been staring at us in the face all this time...

If using L&L, as a demigod he could now grant spells up to 5th level. Are his followers all immediately his priests? Or only special agents he chooses?

One would think that he would have to bestow cleric status on his chosen priests, like all the other gods.

Does bloodtheft still do anything for him?

I would say so.

Even if bloodtheft no longer helps him, what's stopping him from just immediately teleporting to all the strongest blooded characters in the world, taking their bloodline (a mortal has no chance against a demigod) and ultimately taking all the bloodlines, thereby ending bloodlines across Cerilia as we know it?

It would seem that the Gorgon achieving demigod status would be a very very bad thing for Cerilia... heh.

-Fizz

Yup. Hence, why the old gods tried to prevent people (and gods) from doing just that.

It's been the greatest secret of Cerilia since Deismaar... :)

I guarantee the gods (and those few intelligent priests in the hierarchy of each religion, who have reached the same conclusion) would not want scions, nor anyone else, from reaching that same conclusion... These religions would be controlling what their cultures think about all this...

Hence, the control over bloodtheft, and all the related ideas around that which it entails...

Sorontar

07-23-2023, 01:50 PM

I see no correlation between the number of followers and the power of a god. For example, despite what it says in the BoP, Ruornil has more temples than Sera. Erik has only two (I've added a third, because it only makes sense re: the Itave). And yet, when you look at Erik, his faith is the most widespread of all the gods...

I believe Erik has three core temples (if you are meaning communities of faith or common interpretation of belief) - Emerald Spiral, Oaken Grove of Erik, Old Father of the Forests.

I am not sure whether you would count Erik or Sera as the god of agriculture, though I suspect it is Sera. However, I think the Oaken Grove does support responsible agriculture and the wiki claims it is one of the most powerful Cerilian temples.

Sorontar

Magnus Argent

07-24-2023, 03:03 AM

I have, as I am collecting all of this information into one document. And you'll be surprised at the conclusions when you actually look at the data. That is one reason I started this thread...

I see no correlation between the number of followers and the power of a god. For example, despite what it says in the BoP, Ruornil has more temples than Sera. Erik has only two (I've added a third, because it only makes sense re: the Itave). And yet, when you look at Erik, his faith is the most widespread of all the gods...

Oh, I've looked at the data :)

I agree that Ruornil has way more temples than are presented in the Book of Priestcraft. Even so, the number of temple holding levels devoted to him aren't enough to meet the threshold required to become an Intermediate deity.

Sera has more temple holding levels devoted to her than Ruornil has devoted to him. In fact, her count is higher than Erik's.

Fact: lesser gods all have fewer than 100 temple holding levels devoted to them (or their portfolio), while Intermediate and Greater gods all have more than 100.

That's the correlation.

The only statistical difference (that I could find) between Intermediate and Greater gods is that 50% or more of a Greater god's temple holdings are located in a region that embraces the deity as their cultural patron deity: Erik is the patron of the Rjuven, Haelyn patron of Anuirians, Avani patron of the Khinasi. They the only greater gods in Cerilia's human pantheon.

In contrast, Sera replaced Brenna as Matron of the Brecht people, has more than 100 temple holding levels devoted to her but more than half of those temples are located outside of Brechtur. She is classified as an Intermediate deity

I should also point out that just because Haelyn is a Greater God today doesn't necessarily mean he started out that way.

Bloodtheft seems like it would be a viable option for gaining enough divine power to ascend to godhood. But, once you reach Demigod status, that would not longer be an option. The other gods established a rule prohibiting physical manifestation in the mortal realm.

So how do gods increase in power? It seems to me the answer is to obtain more followers. I'm sure there are other possibilities that would work (although I can't think of any at the moment) but Bloodtheft is only an option for mortals.

Although, now that I think about it, defeating another god could work, I suppose.

masterdaorin

07-24-2023, 04:12 PM

I believe Erik has three core temples (if you are meaning communities of faith or common interpretation of belief) - Emerald Spiral, Oaken Grove of Erik, Old Father of the Forests.

I am not sure whether you would count Erik or Sera as the god of agriculture, though I suspect it is Sera. However, I think the Oaken Grove does support responsible agriculture and the wiki claims it is one of the most powerful Cerilian temples.

Sorontar

You are correct.

I was actually conflating the first two, since they are very similar... it's only recently, apparently, the two have diverged doctrinally, IIRC. The Oaken Grove seems more like it has Anuirean influences now, with the coming of Gunther Brandt, which is why it is "split"...

I wouldn't count Sera as the goddess of agriculture. It would be Erik, I should think, for the people of Cerilia to turn to for their agricultural needs.

Are you asking this because re: the Land's Protectorate?

masterdaorin

07-24-2023, 04:16 PM

Oh, I've looked at the data :)

I agree that Ruornil has way more temples than are presented in the Book of Priestcraft. Even so, the number of temple holding levels devoted to him aren't enough to meet the threshold required to become an Intermediate deity.

Ok, well now I'm going to have to go physically count everything. Sigh, this document is never going to get finished... :)

And I'm going to have to co-relate holding level with province level, since that will make a huge difference in the final calculation.

This is going to take some time... thank Haelyn for spreadsheets! :D

So how do gods increase in power? It seems to me the answer is to obtain more followers. I'm sure there are other possibilities that would work (although I can't think of any at the moment) but Bloodtheft is only an option for mortals.

Although, now that I think about it, defeating another god could work, I suppose.

Why?

If becoming a god is how it is accomplished, one would think that getting more of the stuff would make one a more powerful god...

Anyway, the followers theory is certainly the most common way, in exactly the same way that regents get stronger (or weaker) through their own followers.

Fizz

07-24-2023, 04:56 PM

Fact: lesser gods all have fewer than 100 temple holding levels devoted to them (or their portfolio), while Intermediate and Greater gods all have more than 100.

That is not completely true.

Here are are the counts of temple holdings for each deity from the Book of Priestcraft:

Avani: 121
Erik: 112
Haelyn: 225
Belinik: 65
Nesirie: 116
Sera: 115
Cuiraecen: 137
Eloele: 30
Kriesha: 19
Laerme: 31
Ruornil: 33
Moradin: 33
Kartathok: 45
Torazan: 18

So, Cuiraecen has 137 total holdings, the second highest of any deity, and yet Cuiraecen is only a lesser deity. Conversely, Belinik is an intermediate deith but has only 65 total holdings. So it is not absolute connection between 100 holdings and being an intermediate or greater god.

And with Haelyn having nearly twice the total holdings than the next closest deity, Haelyn would be be significantly stronger than any of the others. If he's a greater god, then perhaps Avani and Erik would need to be reclassed as intermediates, as their numbers are more in line with other intermediates like Sera and and Nesirie.

And if you go beyond the human deities (and why not? the human deities are not special), Moradin and Kartathok are greater gods but have only 33 and 45 total holdings respectively. (Note, as they are not in Book of Priestcraft, i tried to add their holdings from all the various region books, so i might have missed a couple.)

Torazan is listed as a demigod, but has only one less holding (assuming i caught them all) than Kriesha who is a lesser deity.

So godly power to follower count (using holdings as a proxy) is not an absolute connection. That means that follower count can not the primary driver of a god's power. If it were, then Cuiraecen would have to be a greater deity, and Belinik, Moradin, Kartathok lesser. That doesn't mean follower count means nothing, but there must be other more important factors at work.

Thus I maintain that the number of followers depends on the god's power, alignment, culture etc. More powerful gods tend to have more followers because of those reasons, not the other way around. For example, Cuiraecen is well-liked across Cerilia because his message resonates across the populace (who doesn't want to win at war?) regardless of how powerful he is.

-Fizz

Magnus Argent

07-24-2023, 07:46 PM

That is not completely true.

Here are are the counts of temple holdings for each deity from the Book of Priestcraft:

Avani: 121
Erik: 112
Haelyn: 225
Belinik: 65
Nesirie: 116
Sera: 115
Cuiraecen: 137
Eloele: 30
Kriesha: 19
Laerme: 31
Ruornil: 33
Moradin: 33
Kartathok: 45
Torazan: 18

So, Cuiraecen has 137 total holdings, the second highest of any deity, and yet Cuiraecen is only a lesser deity. Conversely, Belinik is an intermediate deith but has only 65 total holdings. So it is not absolute connection between 100 holdings and being an intermediate or greater god.

Thus I maintain that the number of followers depends on the god's power, alignment, culture etc. More powerful gods tend to have more followers because of those reasons, not the other way around. For example, Cuiraecen is well-liked across Cerilia because his message resonates across the populace (who doesn't want to win at war?) regardless of how powerful he is.

-Fizz

I'm aware of Cuiraecen and Belinik as being outliers.. which can be interpreted in one of two different ways: 1. temple holding levels are not a key factor in determining a god's level of power or 2. some temples ostensibly devoted to Cuiraecen are, in actuality, devoted to Belinik.

#2 seems very unlikely .. until you look at Cuiraecen's temple dogma.

Cerilia has 3 war gods. Haelyn is the LG god of noble war, Cuiraecen is a CG god of battle, and Belinik is a CE god who abhors peace.

Half of Cuiraecen's temples encourage strong warriors to defend those who cannot defend themselves. That's cool, very CG. But the other half encourages war for war's sake. Gods of good value life. People die in battle, sure, but some battles are worth dying for. But war for no good reason? Sounds pretty Beliniky to me.

One of the AD&D supplements briefly introduced the notion of priestly agent provocateurs.. clerics who masquerade as being a follower of one god but preaching the dogma of another [usually outlawed] deity. So, is it possible that these War for War's sake temples are in reality temples devoted to Belinik?

Fizz

07-24-2023, 09:13 PM

I'm aware of Cuiraecen and Belinik as being outliers..

Don't forget the outliers of Moradin and Kartathok as well. If one is to do a true statistical analysis of things, one can't remove inconvenient data. And when outliers become frequent... well... :)

which can be interpreted in one of two different ways: 1. temple holding levels are not a key factor in determining a god's level of power

As you might guess, this would be my explanation. Heh.

or 2. some temples ostensibly devoted to Cuiraecen are, in actuality, devoted to Belinik.
...
One of the AD&D supplements briefly introduced the notion of priestly agent provocateurs.. clerics who masquerade as being a follower of one god but preaching the dogma of another [usually outlawed] deity. So, is it possible that these War for War's sake temples are in reality temples devoted to Belinik?

I do like the idea of priestly agent provocateurs. But i also see potential inconsistencies with such a situation. In this case. Belinik is not just a god of battle, he is the god of fear, tyranny and slaughter (which is not covered by any aspect of Cuiraecen). To Belinik, might is right, and hiding behind another's name i find hard to reconcile with his porfolio.

The other general issue i have with provocateurs is what powers the god grants. If Belinik is indeed masquerading as Cuiraecen, is he granting those priests Cuiraecen powers, like power over weather and similar spells? If he is truly fooling the priests, he must be granting Cuiraecen-like powers. However, a deity grants powers to their priests in order to further the deity's Cerilian goals. So if Belinik is granting powers to people who think they are following Cuiraecen, are they not furthering Cuiraecen's goals rather than Belinik's? Thus on a large scale i think such a deception would be self-defeating.

But it does make for some potentially good storylines. Where I can better see it working is with small cults, and moreso with devious deities like Eloele, that have some very specific goals in mind.

-Fizz

Fizz

07-25-2023, 02:02 AM

One of the AD&D supplements briefly introduced the notion of priestly agent provocateurs.. clerics who masquerade as being a follower of one god but preaching the dogma of another [usually outlawed] deity. So, is it possible that these War for War's sake temples are in reality temples devoted to Belinik?

Another thought on this...

In your premise deities gain strength from followers. Say a temple of Belinik is masquerading as one of Cuiraecen. The patrons don't know this- they are honestly praying to Cuiraecen. So the strength provided by those followers should go to Cuiraecen, not Belinik, should they not? What's the mechanism for Belinik to "intercept" those prayers from the flock of Cuiraecen? Regardless of outward appearance, i think those holdings would still be effectively Cuiraecen's (for purposes of counting followers anyways).

-Fizz

Magnus Argent

07-25-2023, 05:02 AM

If becoming a god is how it is accomplished, one would think that getting more of the stuff would make one a more powerful god...

Because committing Bloodtheft would require them to manifest physically on the material plane in order to do the deed but the gods have a rule that prohibits them from taking physical a form on Aebrynis. It simply wouldn't be allowed.

Also, gods have more efficient means of increasing their power. Its like fishing... give a man a fish, he'll have food for a day. Show him how to fish, he'll have food for a lifetime. Bloodtheft is like having a fish handed to you but growing your divine portfolio is like fishing.

Doesn't it say somewhere in the Book of Priestcraft that when mortals ascend to godhood, Erik gives them a new fishing pole? I coulda sworn I read that somewhere? No? ;)

I dunno.. does that analogy hold water? ;)

Magnus Argent

07-25-2023, 06:58 AM

Don't forget the outliers of Moradin and Kartathok as well. If one is to do a true statistical analysis of things, one can't remove inconvenient data. And when outliers become frequent... well... :)

As you might guess, this would be my explanation. Heh.

I do like the idea of priestly agent provocateurs. But i also see potential inconsistencies with such a situation. In this case. Belinik is not just a god of battle, he is the god of fear, tyranny and slaughter (which is not covered by any aspect of Cuiraecen). To Belinik, might is right, and hiding behind another's name i find hard to reconcile with his porfolio.

The other general issue i have with provocateurs is what powers the god grants. If Belinik is indeed masquerading as Cuiraecen, is he granting those priests Cuiraecen powers, like power over weather and similar spells? If he is truly fooling the priests, he must be granting Cuiraecen-like powers. However, a deity grants powers to their priests in order to further the deity's Cerilian goals. So if Belinik is granting powers to people who think they are following Cuiraecen, are they not furthering Cuiraecen's goals rather than Belinik's? Thus on a large scale i think such a deception would be self-defeating.

But it does make for some potentially good storylines. Where I can better see it working is with small cults, and moreso with devious deities like Eloele, that have some very specific goals in mind.

-Fizz
I'm not sure. Do gods gain strength from followers because of prayers said in their name or because more followers means more people living in accordance with church doctrine that is designed to strengthen a god's portfolio/area of concern?

Does Haelyn gain strength when someone prays to him by name or does he gain strength because his followers perform acts of chivalry, conduct war in a noble, honorable fashion, and adhere to society's laws and traditions? If he only gains strength from his name said in prayers, what about prayers to Halaia or Holn?

For that matter, who gets credit for the Treucht Cauchen? They are taught to respect the land and they get on well with Erik's druids. And what about the Land's Protectorate, a religion that focuses on the veil separating Aebrynis from the shadow world?

I think a case could be made for Haelyn getting credit for having followers who pray to Halaia and Ruornil gets credit for followers praying to the Treucht Cauchen and Land's Protectorate. The same argument would apply to Belinik's followers who pray to Cuiraecen. As to granting spells to followers.. his clerics would have access to the War domain, would they not?

Sorontar

07-25-2023, 12:57 PM

A few holdings that aren't actually one clear god (according to the wiki).

Some fake temple fronts:
- http://www.birthright.net/forums/showwiki.php?title=Independent_Churches_of_Sera - Actually Kreisha
- http://www.birthright.net/forums/showwiki.php?title=Hidden_Temple_of_Cuiraecen - IIRC a number of Cuiraécen temples disguised as otherwise

Multiple gods per temple
- http://www.birthright.net/forums/showwiki.php?title=Vos_of_Mieres - Belinik and Kreisha???
- http://www.birthright.net/forums/showwiki.php?title=Temple_of_Might - Belinik and Kreisha
- http://www.birthright.net/forums/showwiki.php?title=Hall_of_Might - Belinik and Kreisha (I think the wiki has confused things by having the Hall and Temple of Might as separate entries)
- http://www.birthright.net/forums/showwiki.php?title=Lands_Protectorate - Ruornil, Erik, Sera?
- http://www.birthright.net/forums/showwiki.php?title=Treucht_Chauchen - Ruornil, Erik ?

As pointed out, if you score things per god, the issue is whether you count
- number of provinces that have any holdings
- the sum of holding level
- the sum of population size per holding
- averaging any of this (to work out their strength in a region)
- the proportion of the total population in a province (ie., how dominant are they)
- any other measure
- any combination of measures

Sorontar

Fizz

07-25-2023, 01:19 PM

I'm not sure. Do gods gain strength from followers because of prayers said in their name or because more followers means more people living in accordance with church doctrine that is designed to strengthen a god's portfolio/area of concern?

I don't know. It's your hypothesis. :) Personally i would say neither (as i argue that deities' power is not dependent on follower count), but i'm following your premise to see where it leads.

Does Haelyn gain strength when someone prays to him by name or does he gain strength because his followers perform acts of chivalry, conduct war in a noble, honorable fashion, and adhere to society's laws and traditions? If he only gains strength from his name said in prayers, what about prayers to Halaia or Holn?

Halaia or Holn are just alternative names, but everyone knows it's the same deity. So i don't think that would make a difference. The intended recipient is still the same, and i don't think the gods care for minutia like their mortal names.

If forced to choose of those two options, i think the deities would care more about follower behavior. The gods in turn help those who exemplify their values.

I think a case could be made for Haelyn getting credit for having followers who pray to Halaia and Ruornil gets credit for followers praying to the Treucht Cauchen and Land's Protectorate. The same argument would apply to Belinik's followers who pray to Cuiraecen. As to granting spells to followers.. his clerics would have access to the War domain, would they not?

Halaia for sure, as that is Haelyn. I don't know much about Treuct Cauchen offhand, so i'll have to look into that. Land's Protectorate going to Ruornil, i could see that. It definitely brings up more complicated questions about churches vs deities.

As for Belinik and Cuiraecen, they may have a common thread of war but are quite different otherwise. Belinik wants to dominate by force and fear, while Cuiraecen simply likes a good fight (i see Cuiraecen also as a god of competition). Sticking with 2nd ed rules (as earlier), the two deities grant very different spell spheres and powers. Cuiraecen has power over weather and resistance to lightning, Belinik has more protection spells and some influence over animals, etc etc. In 2nd edition, it'd be difficult to confuse the two priest types by their powers.

Of course their general attitudes to the world are very different, so perhaps follower intent matters. Whether the deity responds to actual prayers or general behavior, i think it's the same question- how could one deity "intercept", or "fool" that connection between a follower and their intended deity?

An important factor here is that we are dealing with a pantheon. All the gods are known by everyone, and not followed in isolation. So how does one define "follower" when everyone prays to a different deity for different things from day to day?

-Fizz

Osprey

07-25-2023, 07:49 PM

@Fizz: Why would Moradin and Kartathok be major deities with smaller pools of Cerilian worshippers?

I would say it's because they are both imported to Cerilia from the wider D&D multiverse, and worshipped on many other prime material worlds where dwarves and goblins exist.

it's easy to prove this is the case with Moradin, since they kept his name and portfolio the same as Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, and most every other D&D world I know of. Dwarves and their primary deity seem to be a multiversal constant in D&D.

A little trickier proving Kartathok is just the Cerilian name for Maglubiyet, except that they seem to be identical deities for the same race, only with different names. Given how freely the BR authors changed god names based on culture, it's not much of a stretch to think they are the same deity. There seems to be other website authors claiming the same thing, if they know about the BR setting.

"The deity of the goblins of Cerilia, Kartathok, bore many similarities to Maglubiyet, so that it was unclear if they were different entities, or just two names used for the same one.[8][22]"
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Aebrynis#Religio (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Aebrynis#Religion)

Also: https://blog.aulddragon.com/2011/03/maglubiyet-the-mighty-one/

Also: There are a LOT of goblins on Aebrynis. Lots in Cerilia (they spawn like bunnies), and not really stated if or how many on other continents. Could be shedloads in Aduria...

Osprey

07-25-2023, 08:05 PM

Re. the general question of how much worshippers matter to god-power:
I have always thought this was vague in the canon material. Trying to prove it definitively one way or the other seems tedious and mostly pointless.

I've always thought it is largely a question of DM preference. I just happen to like the idea that Cerilia's gods and their relative power are tied to their Aebrynian followers in part because the gods themselves are so unique to this world. I mean, a whole pantheon shares the worship of the humans of just one Europe-sized continent!

Compared to gods who have worshippers on many worlds (like the humanoids and demi-humans seem to, or even the Norse and Greek pantheons seem to have in the D&D multiverse), I can't help but think the Cerilia gods are really just overblown petty tribal gods, and are "minor" and "major" deities only on a local, relative scale (compared to each other).

So as a DM, I rolled with this and decided they did not have homes on the Outer Planes like other D&D multi-Prime pantheons, but instead had their own local realms in the deep Shadow World. The non-human deities like Moradin, Kartathok, and Torazan would be the exceptions to this rule, and their worship and divine energies punching through the Shadow World barrier - along with the summoning of true outsiders by demonologists and infernalists - might actually be contributing to the degradation of the Shadow World.

This would make the Cerilian deities mostly-unheard-of in the outer planes...but occasional word might trickle through, and even the deities themselves might travel to the outer planes to have adventures of their own, seeking allies or shutting down potential allies of their divine rivals (especially the 2nd gen younger deities, whom I imagine growing supremely bored in their heavenly prisons). Bringing back some outsider allies would allow priests of Cerilian deities to still summon appropriate outsiders from their deities' Shadow World realms if those deities had brought some angels, demons, devils, or other beings back home with them to serve in their own realms. Or they might have made pacts with some beings that still live on the outer planes, whom their clerics or mage followers could then learn the names of and contact.

This is all just my pet theory, which I thought I'd share in case it sparks some creative inspiration for other DMs out there.

Enjoy your games all, whichever flavors you prefer! :)

Fizz

07-25-2023, 08:33 PM

@Fizz: Why would Moradin and Kartathok be major deities with smaller pools of Cerilian worshippers?

Starting with the premise that a god's power grows with the number of followers, they shouldn't be greater deities as noted in the BR core rulebook. That's my point.

I would say it's because they are both imported to Cerilia from the wider D&D multiverse, and worshipped on many other prime material worlds where dwarves and goblins exist.

I'm not a fan of the multiverse notion. I know it's all the rage with Marvel movies right now, but i prefer to think of Aebrynis and Cerilia as its own setting without outside influence.

That said, if we follow your line of logic, and if we continue the premise that number of followers determines the power of the gods, then Moradin and Kartathok (Maglubiyet) ought to be far far more powerful than any of the Cerilian deities. After all, they'd be drawing on followers from dozens of planets. They'd be multiple times more powerful than even Haelyn, who seems to only have access to Aebyrnis.

However, there does not seem to be any indication that Moradin or Kartathok is more powerful than Haelyn.

(Also interesting is how it's always the humans deities that are unique to every world, whereas the demihumans always have the same deities on every world. Heh.)

it's easy to prove this is the case with Moradin, since they kept his name and portfolio the same as Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, and most every other D&D world I know of. Dwarves and their primary deity seem to be a multiversal constant in D&D.

In reality of course, it's the result of the BR writers. They were focused on the new gods of Cerilia, which is fine, and probably realized that the dwarves and goblins needed something separate. It was much easier to borrow from existing and familiar material.

Also: There are a LOT of goblins on Aebrynis. Lots in Cerilia (they spawn like bunnies), and not really stated if or how many on other continents. Could be shedloads in Aduria...

This is a good point, and there could be other dwarves on other continents as well.

To that point, perhaps the old gods held influence in other parts of Aebyrnis as well. Humans are also found in other parts of Aebrynis. For example, the Khinasi ancestors are on the other side of the Sea of Dragons. Presumably Basaia did not abandon the Basarji who did not cross the sea to Cerilia, so perhaps Avani has taken up that mantle. And perhaps the other new gods have taken up responsibilities for other regions of the world. We just don't hear about them because our story takes place on Cerilia.

-Fizz

Magnus Argent

07-25-2023, 09:21 PM

I don't know. It's your hypothesis. :) Personally i would say neither (as i argue that deities' power is not dependent on follower count), but i'm following your premise to see where it leads.
-Fizz
You're right. You don't know. So why present your opinions as facts? Why argue that yours is the only valid interpretation of the nature of divinity in the Birthright setting?

Considering you have yet to cite any published material that contradicts my point of view, you seem intent on proving that you're right and I'm wrong.

The only source you cited to support of your point of view was material designed for a completely different campaign setting -- and it was conclusively proven that the conclusion you arrived wasn't valid even for that world.

Even so, I acknowledged the validity of the option you presented, if for no other reason, because every DM has the right to arrive at their own conclusions in any manner they see fit. If you're OK arriving at a conclusion unsupported by published material, that's up to you.

I have every right to draw my own conclusions. I presented a perfectly valid opinions regarding the question of divine ascension and the nature of divinity in Birthright. I've cited source material that led me to my conclusions and, if you can only find a reason to disagree with me at the bottom of a rabbit hole of trying to define the abstract, I'd say that, despite your intentions, your baseless opposition only supports the viability of my point of view.

Fizz

07-26-2023, 12:52 AM

You're right. You don't know. So why present your opinions as facts? Why argue that yours is the only valid interpretation of the nature of divinity in the Birthright setting?

You misunderstand me. I'm not saying mine is the only valid interpretation, but the numbers i have provided (holdings per deity) are fact- they're in the books.

But this is a game about a fantasy world, and we're debating what are ultimately silly topics. It should not ever be taken too seriously.

Considering you have yet to cite any published material that contradicts my point of view, you seem intent on proving that you're right and I'm wrong.

Well i have cited such. See next block.

The only source you cited to support of your point of view was material designed for a completely different campaign setting -- and it was conclusively proven that the conclusion you arrived wasn't valid even for that world.

Are you referring to the god Death from Nehwon? You brought up L&L, but i went along and looked it up to see where it went. You countered my comment about Death well. But then you used the sentence on page 155 to support your position, but left off the "This is a world where", which changed the meaning. So you're criticizing me for doing the same thing you did- using a non-BR source as conclusive when it wasn't.

Also, i have cited other sources, Birthright itself.
1: Cuiraecen is a lesser god and has the second most temple holdings.
2: Belinik is an intermediate god and has half the temple holdings of Cuiraecen.
3: Moradin and Kartathok have even fewer holdings than Belinik despite being greater gods.

I made a perfectly valid conclusion based on the evidence (actual numbers) from Birthright material. If you think i'm wrong, explain why. Seriously- bring it! That is what a good debate is for. But don't be disingenuous by saying i've not cited relevant material.

Even so, I acknowledged the validity of the option you presented, if for no other reason, because every DM has the right to arrive at their own conclusions in any manner they see fit. If you're OK arriving at a conclusion unsupported by published material, that's up to you.

I said in previous posts that you've made some good points. And i even just said i liked the provocateur idea.

Per the previous block, i think my conclusion is supported by the published material. How else to explain those significant numerical anomalies without some convoluted set of exceptions? (I'm applying Occam's Razor.)

I have every right to draw my own conclusions. I presented a perfectly valid opinions regarding the question of divine ascension and the nature of divinity in Birthright. I've cited source material that led me to my conclusions and, if you can only find a reason to disagree with me at the bottom of a rabbit hole of trying to define the abstract, I'd say that, despite your intentions, your baseless opposition only supports the viability of my point of view.

Of course you do have the right to your opinion, i've never said otherwise. It's a game, you are free to set it up however you want. The only "right way" is the one that makes the game fun.

But on a public board, if someone makes a claim, I have a right to explore it and discuss contradictions in the hypothesis. I've made my points with supporting data (not baseless). Is not the point of the boards to discuss and debate these things?

-Fizz

Witness3

07-26-2023, 10:28 AM

So, trying to keep pace with this conversation, I would like to do a recap of the issues, and say that this has made me retrace my steps on the matter. Of course correct me if I'm forgetting some of the issues or I'm getting these wrong.

Seems natural to think that bloodline should matter in becoming a god. It is unclear how, as this could led to the idea that gods have a bloodline score and so they should be subject to blood and bloodtheft rules;
Also, it seems natural to think that belief should strengthen or lead the way to deification: however, it is still not clear if belief can simply be tied to holding levels;
There is then the matter of ascension itself, as in the evolution from man to god, which naturally should require moving from the physical world to the shadow world (since there is no other plane in this setting).
And then there is The Serpent, that grants spells like a god, and so mocks the previously three points :P

So, keeping in mind the mother of all rpg answers (it does not really matter since anyone should be able to play however they like), I was wondering if some canon lore can help us. A quick glance to the Core Rolebook brought me this:

If a blooded character dies a natural death or perishes at the hand of a commoner, his bloodline is unaffected, and all his bloodline characteristics die with him. (p.31)
Reading this, I just figured that it does not explicitly says that bloodline is lost, die with him may as well mean goes with him to the shadow world. bloodline is not oil, as it is regenerated with every birth, so it may as well be a quality of someone's soul and move with him.

About the belief, two bits from the book. P. 30 about Regency:

No one knows how this bond between ruler and domain occurs, but some scholars believe it is connected to the powers of confidence and belief - in effect, the power of the ruler is derived from the fealty of his subjects. Something in the semi-divine blood of a noble scion responds to the allegiance of his followers in the same way that a true deity gains strength from worshipers.

So, assuming cerilian scholars are correct ( why Baker and Stark would provide us fake information, it sounds to me something more like "that's our version but you are free to have it your way"), this says two things: a) yes, at least in BR a deity grants strength from worshipers b) this process is similar so not exactly the same as what happens between a god and its devotees.

Now here is a bit from p. 73:

The old gods [...] their essence imbued hundreds of champions and common soldiers with the beginning of Cerilia's bloodlines. [...] More importantly, those mortal champions closest to the old gods inherited the portfolios and powers of their patrons, rising to the heavens in a glorious divine ascension.

So, ascension confirmation aside, The lore is telling us that the new gods inherited something more than a huge amount of divine essence: they inherited the powers and portfolios of their patrons.

This made me think: what if blood powers are but a small fraction of what true divine power is, so bloodline will never be really enough to gain godhood? But also, what if you need a portfolio to be a god? maybe that's the key to ascension: the moment when your name is more synonymous with an idea than a person.

As for the Serpent, maybe it has been answered in the previous posts, sorry for the repetition then, but I've just read again its entry in blood enemies (p.77) , and it is stated clearly that the spell granting power is an anomaly, even for 1st generation awnsheghlien, so either it is a god or it's a awnshegh with some secret agreement with "other mysterious powers". But it is the spell granting that created the cult, not the way around. So either the Serpent is a god, or it is a awnshegh with 5e-warlock like pacts on domain level - or simply a blood power unique to the creature.

So I'm stepping back from my previous assumptions, and I would say that since the game idea seems to have heroes in the mythological sense (as in Heracles, King Arthur, Achilles, etc), divine ascension is strictly bound to contextual factors such as becoming an embodiment of an idea and get famous and worshiped for that, but there should not be a mathematical way of achieving godhood by sheer numbers as they seem to refer to something much smaller than divine power.

That's just my interpretation of course. This setting just loves to leave blank spots for the DM to fill and customize, and that's why it's the setting I love the most.

Fizz

07-26-2023, 03:15 PM

About the belief, two bits from the book. P. 30 about Regency:

No one knows how this bond between ruler and domain occurs, but some scholars believe it is connected to the powers of confidence and belief - in effect, the power of the ruler is derived from the fealty of his subjects. Something in the semi-divine blood of a noble scion responds to the allegiance of his followers in the same way that a true deity gains strength from worshipers.
So, assuming cerilian scholars are correct ( why Baker and Stark would provide us fake information, it sounds to me something more like "that's our version but you are free to have it your way"), this says two things: a) yes, at least in BR a deity grants strength from worshipers b) this process is similar so not exactly the same as what happens between a god and its devotees.

"from the fealty of his subjects" seems to be the key phrase for regents. It doesn't necessarily mean love, or even happiness of the subjects. It suggests that the only thing that matters is the acceptance of the regent's position. (Which explains the Gorgon and other harsh rulers, i guess.) Is the notion of fealty something we can apply to deities and followers?

The last bit of the sentence says "gains strength from worshippers". What is "strength"? To continue the analogy, the land / regent doesn't cease to exist if one fails the other, they're just not prosperous (unhealthy). Maybe they form a symbiotic relationship; either can exist on their own, but together they can accomplish much more. So could the deity-follower relationship likewise be symbiotic: both can exist on their own, but together they make something more? (Just spitballing here, making use of the analogy.)

Now, how to define "worshipper"? As this is a pantheon, the gods don't exist in isolation, so people may give homage to different deities on different days. So to be a worshipper, are active prayers required, or just acknowledgement of existence? Or something in between? While the regent-land connection is measured in regency points, there is not an equivalent quantifier for a god and worshippers. (Of course, this assumes we need to count followers... maybe we don't... hrmmm.)

Reading this, I just figured that it does not explicitly says that bloodline is lost, die with him may as well mean goes with him to the shadow world. bloodline is not oil, as it is regenerated with every birth, so it may as well be a quality of someone's soul and move with him.

I like the notion that it's connected to the soul in some way. It's certainly not biological in nature. Here's a question- if a blooded character is slain, and then raised from the dead (say from a Resurrection spell), do they still have their blood abilities? Or are they lost? I can't recall what the consensus is offhand, but i'm sure it's been discussed. If blood abilities are recovered, then your idea is well supported.

This made me think: what if blood powers are but a small fraction of what true divine power is, so bloodline will never be really enough to gain godhood? But also, what if you need a portfolio to be a god? maybe that's the key to ascension: the moment when your name is more synonymous with an idea than a person.

I've had a similar thought, because even the most powerful blooded characters on Cerilia are far far far below the capabilities of even a demigod. Not even the Gorgon is a match for any demigod. Reaching that kind of power through blood score alone seems too minimal.

As for the Serpent, maybe it has been answered in the previous posts, sorry for the repetition then, but I've just read again its entry in blood enemies (p.77) , and it is stated clearly that the spell granting power is an anomaly, even for 1st generation awnsheghlien, so either it is a god or it's a awnshegh with some secret agreement with "other mysterious powers". But it is the spell granting that created the cult, not the way around. So either the Serpent is a god, or it is a awnshegh with 5e-warlock like pacts on domain level - or simply a blood power unique to the creature.

I don't think there is a definitive answer- i think it's deliberately left to the DM to decide. I had forgotten that the followers (cult) came about as a result of the displayed powers ("See my power- worship me!). If it is a blood ability, it's arguably the most powerful single ability ever displayed by an awnshegh. A demigod is a big step up from a powerful awnshegh. The Serpent definitely walks that (wide) line between the two.

So I'm stepping back from my previous assumptions, and I would say that since the game idea seems to have heroes in the mythological sense (as in Heracles, King Arthur, Achilles, etc), divine ascension is strictly bound to contextual factors such as becoming an embodiment of an idea and get famous and worshiped for that, but there should not be a mathematical way of achieving godhood by sheer numbers as they seem to refer to something much smaller than divine power.

I agree, even if there are some numbers involved, divine ascension needs to be something special- not just an event that mortals can set out to achieve through predefined steps.

-Fizz

Witness3

07-26-2023, 07:21 PM

"from the fealty of his subjects" seems to be the key phrase for regents. It doesn't necessarily mean love, or even happiness of the subjects. It suggests that the only thing that matters is the acceptance of the regent's position. (Which explains the Gorgon and other harsh rulers, i guess.) Is the notion of fealty something we can apply to deities and followers?

[...]

The definition of "worshippers" is just as bad, maybe worse. Does a worshipper count for anyone who acknowledges the god's existence, or does it require someone who actually prays to them, or do they need to live by the deity's ideals, or something in between? And what about people who pray to different deities on different days? It's a pantheon- the gods don't exist in isolation. While the regent-land connection is measured in regency points, there is not an equivalent quantifier for a god and worshippers.

I think this is a superfluous aspect once it has been determined that the regency bind is similar but not equal to worshiping - whatever that means. Also, it cannot be separated by its portfolio - even the elder gods had their tribes as a portfolio. If no god exists without portfolio (but that's just an assumption - feel free to prove me wrong) , maybe the portfolio is connected to a Power's influence over the material world.

The last bit of the sentence says "gains strength from worshippers". What is "strength"? To continue the analogy, the land / regent doesn't cease to exist if one fails the other, they're just not prosperous (unhealthy). It's a symbiotic relationship; either can exist on their own, but together they can accomplish much more. (Just spitballing here, making use of the analogy.)

We have an hint from the Book of Priestcraft ( which I still consider semi-canon in lore btw): when speaking of Nesirie, p.31

Some theologians and religious scholars suggest that Nesirie is gradually assuming responsibility for guarding the dead. They argue that her preservation of the works of the past and her concern for the spirits of the dead will gradually give her the role of guardian of those spirits. [...] Scholars believe that as she grows more powerful, she will be able to prevent the powers of the Shadow World from luring spirits to their dark domain

This nods at a direct bind between a Power's strength (a Power's power :P) and its portfolio. Let's also note that preservation of the past is something that Nesirie requires and favors in people and her churches, not something she does actively. And here is another bit to make the rabbit hole deeper:

Nesirie's priests are often sought out by the families of those who have died. They look to Nesirie to help them manage their loss. This is true, even among those who do not whorship the sea goddess.

So, worship is not believing, or trusting. But it is tied , apparently, to doing stuff favored by Nesire. That's as far as lore as lead me.

I like the notion that it's connected to the soul in some way. It's certainly not biological in nature. Here's a question- if a blooded character is slain, and then raised from the dead (say from a Resurrection spell), do they still have their blood abilities? Or are they lost? I can't recall what the consensus is offhand, but i'm sure it's been discussed. If blood abilities are recovered, then your idea is well supported.

Unfortunately you have just remembered me that my reasoning is faulty because a resurrected scion has no blood ability. This is why resurrecting a regent is frown upon - He may have claims on the crown no longer supported by a divine right. So, no, blood does not follow your soul because if your soul returns the bloodline is not there. It is not biological, also, because of the same reason - your body do not contain bloodline power when you return to it. This also hints to the idea that it was not best exposure to the divine essence that changed the tribal chieftains into the new gods.

I've had a similar thought, because even the most powerful blooded characters on Cerilia are far far far below the capabilities of even a demigod. A demigod could kill the Gorgon with little more than a thought. Reaching that kind of power through blood score alone seems too minimal.

I don't think there is a definitive answer- i think it's deliberately left to the DM to decide. I had forgotten that the followers (cult) came about as a result of the displayed powers ("See my power- worship me!). If it is a blood ability, it's arguably the most powerful single ability ever displayed by an awnshegh. A demigod is a big step up from a powerful awnshegh. The Serpent definitely walks that (wide) line between the two.

I agree, even if there are some numbers involved, divine ascension needs to be something special- not just an event that mortals can set out to achieve through predefined steps.

-Fizz

Agree on that, as I said one of the best part of this setting is how much freedom leaves you to write your own stories, even on a epic level.

Magnus Argent

07-27-2023, 11:46 AM

The Battle of Mt. Deismaar is something all fans of Birthright are familiar with. Old Gods died, New Gods absorbed their power and ascended to take their place.

Does anyone recall if the lore specifies how immediate the new god's ascendency was? Is it possible that they lived out their mortal lives, during which time they gained certain reputations? And, when they died, those with True Bloodlines who had enough people who paid them fealty ascended to godhood and took up portfolios based on what they became known for? For example, Neserie was known for grieving the loss of the Mesatian people .. so she became the Lady of Mourning upon ascension? And since all scions with True Bloodlines were Champions, they were already seen as leaders by their people so of course Sera became Matron of the Brecht and Erik became the patron of the Rjuven, etc.

Is it possible that those with True Bloodlines never ascended not because they lacked the power but because they lacked the reputation? If Roele was Haelyn's lieutenant, Haelyn would have gotten all the accolades. Maybe Raesene never ascended because his cursed Bloodline won't let him die?

I mean, clearly these suppositions have nothing to do with canon. But if a DM were to run a campaign using these as part of his core assumptions.. would they be considered an extrapolation from or in opposition to canon?

Fizz

07-27-2023, 01:49 PM

Does anyone recall if the lore specifies how immediate the new god's ascendency was? Is it possible that they lived out their mortal lives, during which time they gained certain reputations?

The closest reference i have found is from Atlas of Cerilia, Caliedhe Dosiere's primer. It says the following:

The survivors of the Battle of Mount Deismaar were, with few exceptions, those commen men and women who best exemplified the qualities the gods strove to uphold. Yet the champions for the gods were conspicuosly absent. In their close proximity to the gods, they had taken the brunt of the divine essence released by the gods' deaths that washed across the land. The champions, also closest to the gods in their ideals, were elevated to replace the vanished deities.

To me, this suggests the transformation was effectively instantaneous. The champions were there, the explosion occurred, the champions had disappeared ("conspicuosly absent").

The text also suggests that upholding the gods ideals was a factor in how much divine energy was absorbed. Not just physical proximity, but philosophical proximity may have played a role.

-Fizz

Magnus Argent

07-27-2023, 07:23 PM

The closest reference i have found is from Atlas of Cerilia, Caliedhe Dosiere's primer. It says the following:

The survivors of the Battle of Mount Deismaar were, with few exceptions, those commen men and women who best exemplified the qualities the gods strove to uphold. Yet the champions for the gods were conspicuosly absent. In their close proximity to the gods, they had taken the brunt of the divine essence released by the gods' deaths that washed across the land. The champions, also closest to the gods in their ideals, were elevated to replace the vanished deities.

To me, this suggests the transformation was effectively instantaneous. The champions were there, the explosion occurred, the champions had disappeared ("conspicuosly absent").

The text also suggests that upholding the gods ideals was a factor in how much divine energy was absorbed. Not just physical proximity, but philosophical proximity may have played a role.

-Fizz

Yeah, I think your interpretation of the lore is pretty spot on.

Regarding what happens to a scion's sliver of divine power when they die.. if they are a regent, that power is usually transferred to their heir. If there is no heir and they are the last of their line, that power is "lost".

According to the most ancient of texts,

"The world of day and the world of shadow were once one and the same. It was a time when rivers could fly through the air and mountains changed their shape on a whim. It was a time of war between Transience and Permanence.

Desiring order, the gods imposed their will upon the world and bound themselves to it, causing it to be torn into two pieces: the world of day is a place that follows rules and change occurs very slowly. The shadow world is the world where such rules do not apply..

Azrai delighted in the transient nature of chaos. He, alone of the gods, refused to be bound to it.. "

When most scions die, unless their are regents with heirs, their bloodline goes is "lost" [to them]. As was previously pointed out, it doesn't follow the soul to its final destination and can't be recovered when the soul returns. If the creation story above is accurate, it would seem to indicate that these "lost" bloodlines are absorbed into the land itself -- because the gods had previously bound themselves to it. That could, at least partially, explain the Land's Choice phenomenon.

As for the bloodlines derived by Azrai.. he wasn't bound to the world. When his scions die, their bloodlines go to the shadow world -- and have coalesced to become the Cold Rider? Wasn't there something that mentioned Shadow Awnshelien -- undead versions of Awnshelien who have died that are completely controlled by the Cold Rider?

So, regardless of how powerful a bloodline one has in life, it ultimately gets passed on to their heir or returns to the land (or the shadow world) when they die?

Assuming casting off the mortal coil is required for divine ascension, then having a bloodline can't be a factor in divine ascension, can it?

Fizz

07-27-2023, 08:30 PM

So, no, blood does not follow your soul because if your soul returns the bloodline is not there.

So, regardless of how powerful a bloodline one has in life, it ultimately gets passed on to their heir or returns to the land (or the shadow world) when they die?
Assuming casting off the mortal coil is required for divine ascension, then having a bloodline can't be a factor in divine ascension, can it?

Hmmm... very interesting. This does throw a wrench into things doesn't it? So as i see it there are three things to reconcile.

1: a bloodline is the essence of the gods within a mortal
2: sufficient godly essence was able to elevate mortals to godhood (Deismaar)
3: when a character dies their bloodline is lost (in one way or another)

Points 1 and 2 suggest that a character could become a god by increasing their bloodline sufficiently, but point 3 says a bloodline is lost in death.

The only way i can conceive of reconciling these three is that at Deismaar the influx of godly essence was so rapid and overpowering that their mortal frame could not contain the divine essence. That is, the mortal body was destroyed because of the influx of divine power. Alternatively stated, the character as a whole does not die, he transforms to a non-corporeal being.

So, perhaps the only way a current blooded person could ascend to godhood would be to continue to increase their bloodline, and eventually have so much that their body can't contain it. The body is destroyed / transformed because it has absorbed too much divine essence. But "dying" any other (mortal) way would break that connection and release the bloodline back to the world.

Thoughts?

-Fizz

Magnus Argent

07-27-2023, 10:54 PM

So, the new gods weren't killed at Deismaar per se? Their newfound power caused them to ascend and it was the act of ascension that cast off their mortal coil? That makes sense.

In light of this, do we think Cuiraecen, Laerme, and Eloele are literally the divine offspring of the gods or is it possible that they are examples of one-time mortals who managed to ascend? Or could they be re-constituted old gods who were birthed from the "lost" energy of their respective bloodlines, the same way the Cold Rider was reconstituted from Azrai's "lost" bloodline power? Are they simply new iterations of Anduiras, Basaia and Brenna?

Fizz

07-28-2023, 12:02 AM

In light of this, do we think Cuiraecen, Laerme, and Eloele are literally the divine offspring of the gods or is it possible that they are examples of one-time mortals who managed to ascend? Or could they be re-constituted old gods who were birthed from the "lost" energy of their respective bloodlines, the same way the Cold Rider was reconstituted from Azrai's "lost" bloodline power? Are they simply new iterations of Anduiras, Basaia and Brenna?

I guess it depends on how one perceives the nature of the gods. If they're higher life forms (gods are to humans as humans are to bacteria), they may have a life cycle as we do, just on a much much longer time scale. This scene illustrates what it might be like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxaSTlg-djg

But if they are re-constituted iterations of the old gods, would that mean that the new gods are weaker than the old gods? That is, is there a finite amount of divine essence that instead of being split among 6 old gods (not counting Azrai), but is now split among 9?

I think i prefer the first nature myself. But they're gods so it's all fair game. Heh.

Regarding Azrai, some of him did not go to the Shadow World, because we have the new gods Belinik and Kriesha and Azrai bloodlines. Did Azrai actually die at Deismaar, or is the Cold Rider just a piece of him that is growing due to the Shadow World? (Though the Shadow World was only discovered shortly after Deismaar... coincidence, or not...?)

-Fizz

Magnus Argent

07-28-2023, 12:20 AM

I guess it depends on how one perceives the nature of the gods. If they're higher life forms (gods are to humans as humans are to bacteria), then may have a life cycle as we do, just on a much much longer time scale. This scene illustrates what it might be like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxaSTlg-djg

But if they are re-constituted iterations of the old gods, would that mean that the new gods are weaker than the old gods? That is, is there a finite amount of divine essence that instead of being split among 6 old gods (not counting Azrai), but is now split among 9?

I think i prefer the first nature myself. But they're gods so it's all fair game. Heh.

Regarding Azrai, some of him did not go to the Shadow World, because we have the new gods Belinik and Kriesha and Azrai bloodlines. Did Azrai actually die at Deismaar, or is the Cold Rider just a piece of him that is growing due to the Shadow World? (Though the Shadow World was only discovered shortly after Deismaar... coincidence, or not...?)

-Fizz

A veritable feast of food for thought!

Witness3

07-28-2023, 01:23 PM

The only way i can conceive of reconciling these three is that at Deismaar the influx of godly essence was so rapid and overpowering that their mortal frame could not contain the divine essence. That is, the mortal body was destroyed because of the influx of divine power. Alternatively stated, the character as a whole does not die, he transforms to a non-corporeal being.

So, perhaps the only way a current blooded person could ascend to godhood would be to continue to increase their bloodline, and eventually have so much that their body can't contain it. The body is destroyed / transformed because it has absorbed too much divine essence. But "dying" any other (mortal) way would break that connection and release the bloodline back to the world.

In other words, ascension is not simply death, but a transmutation of the soul, which may or may not be merged with the bloodline at this point.

In their close proximity to the gods, they had taken the brunt of the divine essence released by the gods' deaths that washed across the land. The champions, also closest to the gods in their ideals, were elevated to replace the vanished deities.

I Might argue that the chamberlain's words depict two events: huge bloodline investiture and elevation due to the ideals. The two thing may not be separated, maybe.

Now, to further complicate matters, or to finally solve them with the usual mother of all answers, let's have a look to a interview to the loremaster itself (http://www.birthright.net/forums/showwiki.php?title=Interview_Rich_Baker_One), Richard Baker.

Question 11, about the motive of the Gorgon:

The Gorgon wants what his brothers have: the love, honor, respect, and glory that he feels should have been his. And he missed his chance more than fifteen hundred years ago. Roele's dead, the founder of an empire that still remains powerful even in its decay, and Haelyn is a god, forever beyond Raesene's reach. [...]
So where does he go from here? I'm not sure. I can see three tactics: [...] Two, become a god so that he might finally settle his age-old quarrel with Haelyn and take his rightful place as the King of All. Not very practical, but that might not stop a megalomaniac like Raesene. Harvesting bloodlines might be the means to that end, and who knows how close he might be now?[...]
Three, realize that it's all beyond his reach now and explode in a rage of godlike proportions. [...] When Raesene determines that option two is not going to work (it may or may not, that's the DM's call) this might be the result.

It seems that even Rich Baker hints the idea that you should have a really good reason to allow ascension through bloodline.

( Also check out question #8, where it is hinted that the bloodline of Azrai may have a natural tendency on regrouping itself into reforming Azrai :O )

masterdaorin

07-29-2023, 09:33 PM

Because committing Bloodtheft would require them to manifest physically on the material plane in order to do the deed but the gods have a rule that prohibits them from taking physical a form on Aebrynis. It simply wouldn't be allowed.

I don't think that is logical. If two scions meet in the Shadow World, bloodtheft should still be able to happen...

masterdaorin

07-29-2023, 09:35 PM

masterdaorin

07-29-2023, 09:40 PM

An important factor here is that we are dealing with a pantheon. All the gods are known by everyone, and not followed in isolation. So how does one define "follower" when everyone prays to a different deity for different things from day to day.

Belief. It has to be sincere, of course, otherwise it's just lip-service.

People pray to all the gods all the time. However, intent, support, and sincerity matter. That's why temple holdings exist - those people are "claimed" by that church, and (presumably) are sincere in their belief in that church (and its god).

Think of these regents as shepherds of their flock, for their god. One could think of true clerics as "lieutenants" to their deity.

masterdaorin

07-29-2023, 09:48 PM

Re. the general question of how much worshippers matter to god-power:
I have always thought this was vague in the canon material. Trying to prove it definitively one way or the other seems tedious and mostly pointless.

I don't think worshippers matter to the power of the gods as directly as people here seem to proposing.

Rather, worshippers matter because they can affect the "bloodline score" (i.e. divine rank) of the gods in exactly the same way that followers do for regents in the physical world.

The god does things that his followers like, who in turn give him more worship, thereby increasing the god's divineness (i.e. Regency), which can eventually lead to an increase in divine power - or, in like manner, a decrease, when the god ignores and fails his followers.

However, the god's divine strength is relatively static. In other words, it would take a lot to reduce Haelyn's greater status to something lesser, because he has much more divine power than a deity of lesser power.

This also explains the old gods. They've been around for much longer, and so deities like Moradin have built up their power over a much greater span of time compared to these newer gods. Some deities, like Torazan, don't give a poo about what their mortal underlings want or need. That is why the orog god is still of "lesser" divine rank. He doesn't do anything for his followers - it's up to them to do what he wants, and then he might decide to reward such a loyal minion - not the other way around!

masterdaorin

07-29-2023, 10:04 PM

Seems natural to think that bloodline should matter in becoming a god. It is unclear how, as this could led to the idea that gods have a bloodline score and so they should be subject to blood and bloodtheft rules;

Why not? That is how they achieved it in the first place...

Also, it seems natural to think that belief should strengthen or lead the way to deification: however, it is still not clear if belief can simply be tied to holding levels;

Why is it not clear? It seems pretty clear what holdings represent...

There is then the matter of ascension itself, as in the evolution from man to god, which naturally should require moving from the physical world to the shadow world (since there is no other plane in this setting).

Hmmm... not necessarily. It's just that the absorption of such power sheds the mortal coil, and so naturally the scion becomes a being without a physical body.

Note, I didn't say the scion died... he just transformed into a deity.

And then there is The Serpent, that grants spells like a god, and so mocks the previously three points :P

I've addressed this in a previous post. I think the Serpent is living up to his moniker...

This made me think: what if blood powers are but a small fraction of what true divine power is, so bloodline will never be really enough to gain godhood? But also, what if you need a portfolio to be a god? maybe that's the key to ascension: the moment when your name is more synonymous with an idea than a person.

Hmmm, I think you're overthinking things now. That's getting away from the topic at hand.

Fact: six mortals became gods at Deismaar. It can happen. That's what we need to focus on.

An even more delicious fact: these new gods got together and created entirely new gods from their union...

How?

So I'm stepping back from my previous assumptions, and I would say that since the game idea seems to have heroes in the mythological sense (as in Heracles, King Arthur, Achilles, etc), divine ascension is strictly bound to contextual factors such as becoming an embodiment of an idea and get famous and worshiped for that, but there should not be a mathematical way of achieving godhood by sheer numbers as they seem to refer to something much smaller than divine power.

Correct, that should most definitely be a factor.

I guess I haven't made my revelation re: topic clear?

A scion must:

1) Gain enough blood power; and,
2) Be invested as a Deity.

In order to become a god.

I think point #2 is still tripping people up here.

masterdaorin

07-29-2023, 10:09 PM

Unfortunately you have just remembered me that my reasoning is faulty because a resurrected scion has no blood ability. This is why resurrecting a regent is frown upon - He may have claims on the crown no longer supported by a divine right. So, no, blood does not follow your soul because if your soul returns the bloodline is not there. It is not biological, also, because of the same reason - your body do not contain bloodline power when you return to it. This also hints to the idea that it was not best exposure to the divine essence that changed the tribal chieftains into the new gods.

A scion's soul is entirely separate from their divine essence. The two are completely separate things.

However, I'm sure the churches and powers that be in Cerilia have conflated the two to be tied together - if only to support their own prejudices and beliefs (re: the ideas a culture holds about nobility and bloodlines)...

masterdaorin

07-29-2023, 10:10 PM

To me, this suggests the transformation was effectively instantaneous. The champions were there, the explosion occurred, the champions had disappeared ("conspicuosly absent").

The text also suggests that upholding the gods ideals was a factor in how much divine energy was absorbed. Not just physical proximity, but philosophical proximity may have played a role.

Hence why those scions gained those particular portfolios and domains...

Fizz

07-30-2023, 03:35 PM

Fact: six mortals became gods at Deismaar. It can happen. That's what we need to focus on.
An even more delicious fact: these new gods got together and created entirely new gods from their union...
How?

In the same way that two people get together to create new people, perhaps. Note that the creation of the new deities is the result of a union of male and female deities, just like with us humans. So perhaps they can be thought as a higher form of life, like we are to bacteria. The details of it may be beyond human comprehension, but it may be fundamentally the same kind of life cycle.

A scion must:
1) Gain enough blood power; and,
2) Be invested as a Deity.
In order to become a god.
I think point #2 is still tripping people up here.

When you mean "invested", do you mean in a similar way as the investiture domain action?

Focusing on Deismaar as you suggest, were the mortals at Deismaar who became gods invested? I would argue no, as they may not have even known ascension was possible. And if so, then if the original uninvested mortals could ascend, should it be any different for the current mortals?

-Fizz

Fizz

07-30-2023, 04:00 PM

Belief. It has to be sincere, of course, otherwise it's just lip-service.

But "belief" in what? Belief in their existence? Belief in their values? Belief in their ability to impact change on Cerilia? Belief that the deity is the only "true" god?

People pray to all the gods all the time. However, intent, support, and sincerity matter. That's why temple holdings exist - those people are "claimed" by that church, and (presumably) are sincere in their belief in that church (and its god).

One can be sincere to more than one deity. If a person prays to Cuiraecen one day to be brave in battle, then to Nesirie the next to mourn his lost comrades, that person may be sincere in their intent and support to both deities. So is that person "claimed" by the church of Cuiraecen or of Nesirie? Or both? Neither?

-Fizz

Osprey

07-31-2023, 01:13 PM

I don't think worshippers matter to the power of the gods as directly as people here seem to proposing.

Rather, worshippers matter because they can affect the "bloodline score" (i.e. divine rank) of the gods in exactly the same way that followers do for regents in the physical world.

The god does things that his followers like, who in turn give him more worship, thereby increasing the god's divineness (i.e. Regency), which can eventually lead to an increase in divine power - or, in like manner, a decrease, when the god ignores and fails his followers.

However, the god's divine strength is relatively static. In other words, it would take a lot to reduce Haelyn's greater status to something lesser, because he has much more divine power than a deity of lesser power.

But what if...ignoring the the D&D preoccupation with the different powers of Lesser/Intermediate/Greater Deities...we just assumed those were mortal descriptors used to categorize deities of a certain rank - and only the divine rank itself mattered when determining a god's power?

What if we looked at deity ranks the same as the original bloodline scores (but on a divine scale)? That is, only the bloodline SCORE actually mattered for determining powers, regency collection, and contested checks in bloodtheft - while the category groups were simply used to group scions into a hierarchy easier for people to understand (we humans do so love our hierarchies and categorization)?

If you combined this with the idea that divine rank could go up or down based on the god's influence on Aebynis waxing or waning - which could be through increasing or decreasing worship, but might also be through changes in nature and the Shadow World (where most portfolios -even magic - are based) - then we could have a potentially dynamic pantheon whose individual states might change over time depending upon what happens in the world they are gods of as well as what happens between the gods themselves.

Sure the new gods made a pact after Deismaar not to manifest and do battle in the physical world again...but which gods agreed to this? Was it anything more than a pact, or was it really some kind of cosmic law imposed on Aebrynis or on all the gods of Aebrynis? What if Belenik and Kreisha made no such agreement? What about Torazan? Kartathok? Moradin? The Cold Rider?

I personally love the idea that the actions of mortals affect the gods. Having gods be simply unaffected by their actions is boring and very...I dunno...seems to stroke power-hungry ego of human hubris (and maybe DM egos who want things and powers players cannot touch).

I always think that having players and mortal characters *matter* is what makes for the best stories. If a Temple regent believes or even knows that their work in spreading the faith of their patron deity really does affect the strength and health of that deity, well - that is serious motivation for a true servant!

I also love the idea that gods are flawed, like people but with super-powers, whose actions, deeds, and thoughts could have far broader consequences for the world than ordinary people (which makes things like rivalries, angry tirades, and inter-deity wars really world-shaking! Similar to Greek mythos, which is a fun style for a fantasy polytheistic world). This means the gods are characters who can have their own stories, who can do great things but also foolish things - and the 3 chaotic younger gods seem primed for such stories (which really ought to be present, as they are themselves over a thousand years old!).

A final note on that: It might be in the starting pages of the BoP (?), but I distinctly remember reading that after Deismaar, the new gods spent quite some time - perhaps even several centuries - living out more mortal-like lives on Aebrynis, and did not simply disappear at Deismaar never to be seen again. I also seem to recall this was the time some of them married each other and had kids. All of which seems to reinforce the concept of "gods are like (super) humans, especially when they were new to the roles."

Fizz

07-31-2023, 08:14 PM

masterdaorin

07-31-2023, 08:45 PM

In the same way that two people get together to create new people, perhaps. Note that the creation of the new deities is the result of a union of male and female deities, just like with us humans. So perhaps they can be thought as a higher form of life, like we are to bacteria. The details of it may be beyond human comprehension, but it may be fundamentally the same kind of life cycle.

I would agree with that. Gods are just super-human mortals, as it were... At least, maybe these new ones. But, probably the old gods too, I would reckon.

Hence, the whole pact idea... they know they are mortal-ish, and don't want anyone to figure out the true consequences of that...

When you mean "invested", do you mean in a similar way as the investiture domain action?

Focusing on Deismaar as you suggest, were the mortals at Deismaar who became gods invested? I would argue no, as they may not have even known ascension was possible. And if so, then if the original uninvested mortals could ascend, should it be any different for the current mortals?

Yes, exactly the same way as the investiture domain action - but for the divine plane, not the physical world.

Hence, at the time of creation, the old gods simultaneously gave up their divine essence, and invested it into their chosen champions.

The "excess" was what washed over everyone else present...

I think that would solve the notion that not just anyone can become a god. Only another god can create a god.

And it would explain the three newest gods too... and why they aren't as powerful as the older new gods... :)

masterdaorin

07-31-2023, 08:54 PM

But "belief" in what? Belief in their existence? Belief in their values? Belief in their ability to impact change on Cerilia? Belief that the deity is the only "true" god?

All of that. Whatever regency represents. It encompasses a whole can of various things.

One can be sincere to more than one deity. If a person prays to Cuiraecen one day to be brave in battle, then to Nesirie the next to mourn his lost comrades, that person may be sincere in their intent and support to both deities. So is that person "claimed" by the church of Cuiraecen or of Nesirie? Or both? Neither

Hence, why there is a pantheon in this setting. And I think it strongly supports the idea that just because there is a temple devoted to Haelyn, doesn't mean that a corner of that church doesn't have a statue to Nesirie and/or an altar to Cuiraecen tucked away in there somewhere, too.

However, the parent church claims the majority of the regency they devote to that institution.

And, note, that this can change. A priest who's patron is Nesirie can become Prelate of that temple, and poof!, the people start supporting Haelyn's wife more than her husband (naturally, the priest had to go through all the normal ways of converting the flock to think more about Nesirie's wants over her husband's or son's practices).

I suspect that is exactly what happened in Aerenwe, for example. I bet you all of those temples were IHH temples until Ursula Diem came along. And I bet those same temples in the make of Haelyn's are still there, as always. They are now just serving Nesirie's faith moreso than the other two religions associated with her.

masterdaorin

07-31-2023, 08:56 PM

But what if...ignoring the the D&D preoccupation with the different powers of Lesser/Intermediate/Greater Deities...we just assumed those were mortal descriptors used to categorize deities of a certain rank - and only the divine rank itself mattered when determining a god's power?

What if we looked at deity ranks the same as the original bloodline scores (but on a divine scale)? That is, only the bloodline SCORE actually mattered for determining powers, regency collection, and contested checks in bloodtheft - while the category groups were simply used to group scions into a hierarchy easier for people to understand (we humans do so love our hierarchies and categorization)?

That's how I would prefer it, as its simple.

But those categories do have a score attached to them, which would help inform that score according to the ranks.

I'm more interested in the first rank: Divine 0 (or 1). What score is that? At a bloodline score of 150? 200? What?

Heck, it could even be far lower, like 75... and would thus explain the Serpent...

masterdaorin

07-31-2023, 09:05 PM

A final note on that: It might be in the starting pages of the BoP (?), but I distinctly remember reading that after Deismaar, the new gods spent quite some time - perhaps even several centuries - living out more mortal-like lives on Aebrynis, and did not simply disappear at Deismaar never to be seen again. I also seem to recall this was the time some of them married each other and had kids. All of which seems to reinforce the concept of "gods are like (super) humans, especially when they were new to the roles."

The chronology pegs Avani's revelation as a goddess at AD 9 (that is, After Deismaar - heh :D ) - so it can't have been very long before they removed themselves from the mortal world.

Naturally, it's a vague statement; they could have hung around for centuries. But that's what we have to go with.

One would assume the other five new gods revealed themselves around the same time.

One would also assume that they quickly removed themselves from the affairs of men, in order to contemplate other things (read: to make it fair to Roele's story, the DM had them go away so that they didn't outshine him, if this were a "game campaign" story).

The bigger question is: why did they want to create three new babies?

Fizz

07-31-2023, 10:56 PM

All of that. Whatever regency represents. It encompasses a whole can of various things.

Hence, why there is a pantheon in this setting. And I think it strongly supports the idea that just because there is a temple devoted to Haelyn, doesn't mean that a corner of that church doesn't have a statue to Nesirie and/or an altar to Cuiraecen tucked away in there somewhere, too.

However, the parent church claims the majority of the regency they devote to that institution.

An important thing to remember, i think. Holdings, temples included, are details of the mortal world. A god does not have holdings.

For example, suppose a temple (3) exists in a province (6), and the owner of that temple is a priest of Haelyn. 3/6 means that about half of the population worships at that temple. However, that need not mean that all the worshippers at that church are dedicated solely to Haelyn. Maybe a significant fraction prefer Nesirie, and the physical churches include shrines to her as well.

A more obvious example of this is the Temple of Might, that includes worshippers of both Kriesha and Belinik, despite being listed under Belinik (page 29 of BoP) and not Kriesha.

-FIzz

Fizz

07-31-2023, 10:59 PM

The bigger question is: why did they want to create three new babies?

If we accept that the gods are a higher form of life, and that they were previously human and presumably remember that experience, then the reason could be very simple: they have kids for the same reason that we humans choose to have kids.

And it would explain the three newest gods too... and why they aren't as powerful as the older new gods...

Indeed... maybe the kids aren't fully "grown" yet. But perhaps they may grow into more powerful deities in a few hundred (or thousand) of years.

-Fizz

masterdaorin

08-01-2023, 06:00 PM

If we accept that the gods are a higher form of life, and that they were previously human and presumably remember that experience, then the reason could be very simple: they have kids for the same reason that we humans choose to have kids.

Indeed... maybe the kids aren't fully "grown" yet. But perhaps they may grow into more powerful deities in a few hundred (or thousand) of years.

-Fizz

I would assume so, re: the first part. And I would still think that they are still human - just super-human.

I'm not convinced that the kids have any more growing to do. Those first few centuries were probably their growth period. Now they are full-fledged deities.

In any case, they would grow more powerful (or less) just like any other deity, I should think.

masterdaorin

08-01-2023, 06:04 PM

An important thing to remember, i think. Holdings, temples included, are details of the mortal world. A god does not have holdings.

That we know of... we haven't any details of the divine world.

I would assume all those celestials and demons, etc., are what mortals are to regents in the physical world...

For example, suppose a temple (3) exists in a province (6), and the owner of that temple is a priest of Haelyn. 3/6 means that about half of the population worships at that temple. However, that need not mean that all the worshippers at that church are dedicated solely to Haelyn. Maybe a significant fraction prefer Nesirie, and the physical churches include shrines to her as well.

Correct. However, whomever they pray to, and might prefer overall, the majority of that worship still goes to Haelyn. That's why the temple is Haelyn's, and the RP from that temple goes to a priest of Haelyn.

If it was Nesirie, for example, it would belong to a priest of Nesirie...

Fizz

08-01-2023, 06:22 PM

Correct. However, whomever they pray to, and might prefer overall, the majority of that worship still goes to Haelyn. That's why the temple is Haelyn's, and the RP from that temple goes to a priest of Haelyn.
If it was Nesirie, for example, it would belong to a priest of Nesirie...

I think this is where we differ. I would say the temple is not Haelyn's, the temple belongs to the mortal who owns that holding. If he is a priest of Haelyn, then naturally he would attract followers of Haelyn and related deities. So there is a natural correlation, but i think the causal flow is different.

To illustrate, suppose our priest suffers a great personal loss, and as a result becomes a priest of Nesirie instead. In that case the flock doesn't just all convert to Nesirie too. The majority probably still pray to Haelyn. But the regency still goes to the priest, even if the majority of his followers do not pray to the same god.

Or, as another exmple, maybe the holder of the temple isn't a priest at all, but prays to all of the deities equally. The holder still gets the regency from it, regardless of how differing the beliefs of the flock attending, would he not?

-Fizz

masterdaorin

08-02-2023, 07:40 PM

I think this is where we differ. I would say the temple is not Haelyn's, the temple belongs to the mortal who owns that holding. If he is a priest of Haelyn, then naturally he would attract followers of Haelyn and related deities. So there is a natural correlation, but i think the causal flow is different.

Actually, I think we're in agreement. The regent who owns the holding gets the regency. But, in the case of temples, that regency is also tied to whomever they pray to. However, for the sake of simplicity (and game mechanics), only one god gets (the majority of) that regency.

It would be too cumbersome to say: God 1 gets 43.5%, God 2 gets 15.3%, etc.

To illustrate, suppose our priest suffers a great personal loss, and as a result becomes a priest of Nesirie instead. In that case the flock doesn't just all convert to Nesirie too. The majority probably still pray to Haelyn. But the regency still goes to the priest, even if the majority of his followers do not pray to the same god.

One would think that a crisis of faith would cause the priest to either convert their flock with them, or leave the temple and go someplace more suitable to their new beliefs...

Otherwise, the priest is going to be at odds, and in conflict, with their worshippers... (i.e. the holding generates no regency for the regent).

Or, as another exmple, maybe the holder of the temple isn't a priest at all, but prays to all of the deities equally. The holder still gets the regency from it, regardless of how differing the beliefs of the flock attending, would he not?

If the holder isn't a priest, they get no regency from a temple holding...

Fizz

08-02-2023, 09:04 PM

It would be too cumbersome to say: God 1 gets 43.5%, God 2 gets 15.3%, etc.

I agree, but that's why i don't think to whom the followers pray matters. Regardless of deity, the temple holder gets the RP for it.

Otherwise, the priest is going to be at odds, and in conflict, with their worshippers... (i.e. the holding generates no regency for the regent).

I think that'd depend on whether there is actual conflict. Followers of Haelyn and Nesirie generally get along; they're both fundamentally good deities with related morals. So in my example i think there would be little conflict. If the priest changes to Nesirie as "primary", it doesn't mean that he's forsaken Haelyn in all respects. Now, if our priest had converted to Belinik, then yes that'd be a big problem.

I'm trying to allow for the fact that people may pray to multiple deities. I see temple holdings as not being to specific deities, but to a faith. And the faith may involve more than one deity. We have a pantheon of deities who do not exist in a vacuum. Regardless of deity, it's all part of one faith. The Temple of Might is an example of this.

If the holder isn't a priest, they get no regency from a temple holding...

You're right. For some reason i was thinking there were some classese got half-regency. Under holdings, the Core Rulebook says other classes can own temple holdings, but can't cast realm spells, so maybe i was thinking of that.

I have not found a rule that requires the priest's temple be dedicated to his own deity.
The Core Rulebook refers to holding level as fraction of people "attending the priest's churches". It does not say they are praying to the priest's god. I think that relates to the notion of faith rather than a specific god.

For another example consider this: Our priest in Anuire starts a new church, the "Church of Justice and Mercy" or somesuch, which is primarily dedicated to both Haelyn and Nesirie (and maybe a shrine to Cuiraecen too). Suppose our priest is of Haelyn. In a given month the attendees favor Nesirie 51% to 49%, are we to say the priest doesn't collect regency that month? That just doesn't seem right to me.

-Fizz

masterdaorin

08-03-2023, 06:03 AM

For another example consider this: Our priest in Anuire starts a new church, the "Church of Justice and Mercy" or somesuch, which is primarily dedicated to both Haelyn and Nesirie (and maybe a shrine to Cuiraecen too). Suppose our priest is of Haelyn. In a given month the attendees favor Nesirie 51% to 49%, are we to say the priest doesn't collect regency that month? That just doesn't seem right to me.

No, I think you're overthinking it.

Think of the temple regent as a lieutenant of their deity. If it's a lieutenant of Haelyn, he can do things for the regent Nesirie, but his primary loyalty is to Haelyn, and his support (i.e. regency) mostly goes to Haelyn.

He's going to be telling his attendees that, yes, Nesirie is important, but Haelyn is the Lord, and so you're primary loyalty is to him. Yes, do things for Nesirie, and don't forget your Hail Nesirie's, etc., but always follow Haelyn's precepts too. That's key. He's the Patriarch, the Head of All, so you owe him your first (primary) loyalty to him.

Magnus Argent

08-03-2023, 07:49 AM

I agree, but that's why i don't think to whom the followers pray matters. Regardless of deity, the temple holder gets the RP for it.

I'm trying to allow for the fact that people may pray to multiple deities. I see temple holdings as not being to specific deities, but to a faith. And the faith may involve more than one deity. We have a pantheon of deities who do not exist in a vacuum. Regardless of deity, it's all part of one faith. The Temple of Might is an example of this.

I don't think anyone is denying there is a pantheon of gods. A person can honor all of the gods in the pantheon, no sweat. But they can only be *devoted* to one god at at time -- this is a premise that was baked into the setting. Even when the Old Gods walked among mortals, humanity as a whole honored all of the gods but each tribe venerated one god above all others.

Does it have to be this way? Of course not. Other settings allow for the worship of entire pantheons. Eberron, for example. But Birthright wasn't designed that way.

The Core Rulebook doesn't say that temple holdings represent shrines, monasteries, and temples of *a* faith... it says, they represent shrines, monasteries, and temples of the priest/regent's faith. Big difference.

I don't know of any priest presented as being devoted to more than one deity. Hence, I don't believe temple holdings represent worship of more than one deity.

Even in Vosgaard, where the Temple of Might as a whole is a faith devoted to both Belinik and Kriesha, individual temple holdings are controlled by specific regents who actively worship one or the other (based on gender). In Kozlovnyy, the Temple of Might is devoted to Belinik. In Velenoye, it is devoted to Kriesha. It is literally a shared faith in name only.

Many topics are ambiguous or vague but I don't think this is one of them.

Magnus Argent

08-03-2023, 08:03 AM

I do want to take a moment to say that it was absolutely wrong of me try to Legends & Lore as an authoritative source. Birthright follows the rules for AD&D, yes. Unless specific Birthright material contradicts rules in the PHB and DMG, those rules are presumed to hold true in Cerilia, yes. But those books are authoritative.

Legends & Lore states that it is nothing more than a collection of POSSIBILITES.

In a prior post, I relied on rules regarding divine ascension in L&L but I did not at the time take the above statement into consideration.

I figure if I'm going to point out when I think other people are wrong, it would be hypocritical not to do the same for my own posts if I later come to see them to be erroneous.

My bad! ;)

Fizz

08-03-2023, 01:28 PM

Hmmm... i seem to be outnumbered here... lol.

Think of the temple regent as a lieutenant of their deity. If it's a lieutenant of Haelyn, he can do things for the regent Nesirie, but his primary loyalty is to Haelyn, and his support (i.e. regency) mostly goes to Haelyn.

I'm not sure this analogy works, because it would mean the god is making the ultimate decisions. Haelyn doesn't determine what actions the priest takes, either on a personal or domain level. The priest is the one with the regency points, and the one who decides how to spend those points each domain turn. This is why there can be fierce rivalries between different faiths even though they may venerate the same deity; the teachings are coming not from a single source (the deity), but from the individual priests with individual ideas and motives.

He's going to be telling his attendees that, yes, Nesirie is important, but Haelyn is the Lord, and so you're primary loyalty is to him. Yes, do things for Nesirie, and don't forget your Hail Nesirie's, etc., but always follow Haelyn's precepts too. That's key. He's the Patriarch, the Head of All, so you owe him your first (primary) loyalty to him.

I'm fine with this take on it, but i'm just not convinced that if church membership slipped into being majority Nesirie that it would immediately result in a loss of RP.

-Fizz

Fizz

08-03-2023, 02:35 PM

I don't think anyone is denying there is a pantheon of gods. A person can honor all of the gods in the pantheon, no sweat. But they can only be *devoted* to one god at at time --

For a priest yes, but an individual person doesn't have to be devoted to a single god at all.

So when we talk about a priest's temple holdings and the churchgoers, i'm not convinced they have be 100% aligned. Is there anything that says a priest loses regency if the followers worship differently from the priest?

Don't get me wrong- i think we agree at a minimum that most of the time they will be the same or very similar. We're talking edge cases here (and such a case i think would serve well for the case of a masquerading temple, as discussed in earlier posts). :)

Even when the Old Gods walked among mortals, humanity as a whole honored all of the gods but each tribe venerated one god above all others.

I think that is because the old gods were strongly associated with each tribe, who were all separated before the migration to Cerilia. So my impression is that each tribe was effectively monotheistic. That paradigm has changed since the migration to Cerilia and the new gods.

The Core Rulebook doesn't say that temple holdings represent shrines, monasteries, and temples of *a* faith... it says, they represent shrines, monasteries, and temples of the priest/regent's faith. Big difference.

"character's faith". Hmmm... ok fair point, getting me on a subtely of wording... lol. That said, the "character's faith" need not be one of a singular deity. As you say, a priest may be dedicated to Haelyn, but can still honor Nesirie and Cuiraecen; that combination of dedication / honor constitutes the "faith" of the character.

Even in Vosgaard, where the Temple of Might as a whole is a faith devoted to both Belinik and Kriesha, individual temple holdings are controlled by specific regents who actively worship one or the other (based on gender). In Kozlovnyy, the Temple of Might is devoted to Belinik. In Velenoye, it is devoted to Kriesha. It is literally a shared faith in name only.

Hrmmm... details from TotHW and CotS are interesting. You are correct that it does appear that these individuals are pushing their own preferred deities within the the Temple of Might. Name only indeed.

But in so doing it suggests that the priest does gain regency even when the followers are of a different deity. In TotHW, it says that under the rule of the priestess Lida, Kriesha has risen at the expense of Belinik. So when she first came to power of the temple, the majority of the followers were of Belinik. For her to exert influence, she must have been earning RP. Therefore, a priest can gain RP even when the majority of followers worship a different deity. (And remember, this is the same church, the Temple of Might, not a new rival faith that overtook the original.)

Thoughts?

-Fizz

masterdaorin

08-03-2023, 03:58 PM

I'm fine with this take on it, but i'm just not convinced that if church membership slipped into being majority Nesirie that it would immediately result in a loss of RP.

Yes, but this is a two-way street. The regent has ultimate control over where the regency goes. It's just like any regent.

The commoners might not agree with their ruler, and they have their own free will, but the regent ultimately directs where they want their domain to go. The same applies to temples. If the priest says Haelyn is the best, then their worshippers are going to be giving a (slight) majority of their faith to Haelyn, because their leader does, despite their personal preferences.

A huge discrepancy means that there is conflict (i.e. a random event, a loss of regency for that holding, etc.). That's how the game rules handle this sort of situation.

masterdaorin

08-03-2023, 04:09 PM

But in so doing it suggests that the priest does gain regency even when the followers are of a different deity. In TotHW, it says that under the rule of the priestess Lida, Kriesha has risen at the expense of Belinik. So when she first came to power of the temple, the majority of the followers were of Belinik. For her to exert influence, she must have been earning RP. Therefore, a priest can gain RP even when the majority of followers worship a different deity. (And remember, this is the same church, the Temple of Might, not a new rival faith that overtook the original.)

The churches of Vosgaard illustrate my points above, wonderfully.

There are still followers of both gods in the Temple of Might (heck, a few could even believe in Laerme or Avani), as well in the other temples in Vosgaard devoted to Belinik.

The point is, in one realm (Velenoye), the head witch (Lida) has clawed her way to the top in the time-honored tradition of the Vos peoples - and has been rewarded by becoming regent of that local church. Now, the people of Velenoye stress Kriesha's dogma and precepts over Belinik's. But, make no mistake, there are still plenty of worshippers of Belinik. In fact, Vos society demands that all males do so. So, all males of Velenoye still follow Belinik - its just that they are careful to respect the priestesses of Kriesha much more than in other places - else they'll suffer the consequences for not doing so...

In other Vos lands, Belinik rules supreme (as it should be, according to the Vos). Vos culture is definitely patriarchal, and women are treated as chattel. Kriesha is meant to serve Belinik, not the other way around. However, in Velenoye, this message has been rebranded to serve Lida's selfish interests...

It's interesting to note that all the unique temples devoted to Kriesha are outside of Vosgaard. I would argue that those three temples are more "pure" Kriesha dogma than in Vosgaard. There probably is very little worship of Belinik in those temples - although, I wouldn't be surprised if a few male worshippers in those temples secretly follow Belinik - because it serves their own interests to do so.

Fizz

08-03-2023, 05:46 PM

The churches of Vosgaard illustrate my points above, wonderfully.

I agree, but i think it also illustrates my point, that followers don't have to match the temple owner's deity. Lida took control of the temple holdings when it was still predominatly Belinik-focused. So she must have gained RP despite the difference in her and the flock's preference of deity, (else she'd not have had any RP to have any influence to flip the majority to Kriesha-worshippers).

-Fizz

Magnus Argent

08-03-2023, 09:37 PM

I agree, but i think it also illustrates my point, that followers don't have to match the temple owner's deity. Lida took control of the temple holdings when it was still predominatly Belinik-focused. So she must have gained RP despite the difference in her and the flock's preference of deity, (else she'd not have had any RP to have any influence to flip the majority to Kriesha-worshippers).

-Fizz

Lida doesn't get RP based who the temple-goers worship, true. She gains RP because temple-goers hold her in high esteem. She draws strength from them in a manner similar to how deities draw strength from their followers.

But, because they hold her in such high esteem, where she goes they will follow. If that means a shift in their faith away from Belinik and towards Kriesha, so be it.

Whether or not temple-goers MUST devote themselves to the temple regent's deity is a moot question. If the two don't match upon the ascendency of a new temple regent, they soon will.

How else can one explain Zoloskaya's conversion from the worship of the Vos gods to worshipping Lirovka?

Fizz

08-04-2023, 03:45 AM

Lida doesn't get RP based who the temple-goers worship, true. She gains RP because temple-goers hold her in high esteem.

Exactly! And that's what i meant before when i referred to the causal flow. In many cases, yes, the priest's leadership will convert the followers. But i could see a priest leading a church without being an aggressive proselyte, so long as the different philosophies don't contradict.

How else can one explain Zoloskaya's conversion from the worship of the Vos gods to worshipping Lirovka?

Interesting case. In reading TotHW, it says that it was Farzeb (who is a wizard) was the primary driver of converting the people, but there was little opposition as most of the Vos warriors and priests had been killed in battle. Much easier to convert when your gods have failed you i guess... heh.

-Fizz

masterdaorin

08-04-2023, 05:45 AM

I agree, but i think it also illustrates my point, that followers don't have to match the temple owner's deity. Lida took control of the temple holdings when it was still predominatly Belinik-focused. So she must have gained RP despite the difference in her and the flock's preference of deity, (else she'd not have had any RP to have any influence to flip the majority to Kriesha-worshippers).

-Fizz

Basically, what Magnus said.

Followers don't have to, that is correct. However, they give their regency (whatever that entails) to the regent, who does support (possibly a different deity). That makes all the difference.

And, Lida could have gotten RP via other methods (gifted from other regents, gains for being super-awesome, etc.).

However it was done, she challenged the previous regent and won. Now the worshippers do what she says (or else).

That doesn't mean they don't also support some other deity - secretly, most likely, but in the case of Belinik, this doesn't have to be the case, since that god is socially acceptable in Vos society (and expected to do so for Vos men). Those same worshippers, however, must also worship Kriesha, in some form, because the regent (Lida) says so. That's HER god. And she's the boss. If you want to challenge her on that... well, good luck to you.

Fizz

08-05-2023, 02:31 AM

Followers don't have to, that is correct. However, they give their regency (whatever that entails) to the regent, who does support (possibly a different deity). That makes all the difference.
That doesn't mean they don't also support some other deity - secretly, most likely, but in the case of Belinik, this doesn't have to be the case,

OK, I think we're mostly in agreement. I don't think they need to be as generally secretive though, i think it can be justified for other related deities (ie Haelyn-Nesirie).

-Fizz

Magnus Argent

08-08-2023, 02:14 PM

Exactly! And that's what i meant before when i referred to the causal flow. In many cases, yes, the priest's leadership will convert the followers. But i could see a priest leading a church without being an aggressive proselyte, so long as the different philosophies don't contradict.

How can a priest regent lead a church without aggressively proselytizing? By definition, that's what he's doing when he creates a Temple(0) or rules a Temple(1) to a Temple(2) holding.

Magnus Argent

08-08-2023, 06:49 PM

We know from the Core Rulebook that priests must select one god to worship. We also know that temple holdings represent shrines, monasteries, and temples of the priest's faith and that holding levels represent a percentage of the population who have embraced the regent's faith as their own. And we know from the Book of Priestcraft that, for game purposes, a "faith" is defined as the sum total of all temple holdings the priest regent controls. Our default expectation for any faith is that they follow these rules.

Normally, if a priestess of Kriesha had a Temple(1) in a Province(2), 50% of the population would exclusively worship Kriesha. And, yes, a sizable number of those worshippers will be men. That's not to say men love and adore Kriesha. Probably the opposite. They likely fear her perform their devotions in an effort to appease her and stave off her wintery wrath. It gets pretty cold in Velenoeye.

As for the other 50% of the province's population, if the previous temple regent was a priest of Belinik, it is likely that the bulk of those people still worship him. But without a temple regent to guide them, Belinik's followers would be disorganized at best. Some would have lost faith, others would no longer feel the religious fervor that the former priest regent once kindled in them. And, if the priestess of Kriesha subsequently tried to rule her holding to a Temple(2), doing so would have represented an active attempt convert those non-believers to her faith -- which, as I said, as a rule is one specific god or goddess.

But, if it is impossible for a priest regent to create faith that embraces two or more gods, how is it possible that the Temple of Might exists? And what about the Imperial Temple of Haelyn, the primary faith worshipped by Anuireans throughout the Imperial era?

Perhaps one priest regent can't create a faith that embraces more than one god but, if two different priests created two different faiths and proclaimed a formal relationship between their two domains -- the same way two rulers can be made into allies or vassals -- that would provide the right environment where honoring more than one god would be socially, legally, and spiritually acceptable.

Even with such an arrangement, however, regardless of whether or not you say a quick prayer to the god that your temple is allied with, the priest regent of the faith you belong to will still exclusively preach the dogma of their god. And their god is your god -- that's just how it works.

Are there any temple domains that are considered vassals of another temple domain? I can't really think of any, off hand.. maybe the LPA in Coeranys/Elenie and the Aryian Temple of Avani kinda sorta? I can see an arrangement like that working as long as the "liege" temple is the recognized big cheeze of a particular culture (meaning one of Erik, Avani, Haelyn, or Sera's faiths).

Fizz

08-09-2023, 01:42 AM

How can a priest regent lead a church without aggressively proselytizing? By definition, that's what he's doing when he creates a Temple(0) or rules a Temple(1) to a Temple(2) holding.

The key word there is "aggressively". He rules the temple, which means bringing in worshippers, but there are many ways to do that. He persuades sure, even if subtlely. But this is a pantheistic setting. The gods don't exist in isolation, and no single god is the master of all subjects. The priest may recognize that some people have slightly different priorities.

As such, would it make sense for a priest of Haelyn to aggressively proselytize against the worship of other deities, say Nesirie, and potentially drive potential allies away? Why make an enemy out of an ally when you agree the majority of the time?

But, if it is impossible for a priest regent to create faith that embraces two or more gods, how is it possible that the Temple of Might exists? And what about the Imperial Temple of Haelyn, the primary faith worshipped by Anuireans throughout the Imperial era?

That's why i think it's ok for a priest to serve one god, but still accept other gods, all as one faith. Maybe it's a bit like the role that patron saints play in various forms of Christianity.

-Fizz

Magnus Argent

08-09-2023, 11:01 AM

That's why i think it's ok for a priest to serve one god, but still accept other gods, all as one faith. Maybe it's a bit like the role that patron saints play in various forms of Christianity.

Well, my answer to the same question didn't contradict fundamental rules baked into the setting. I guess you're just more comfortable setting such things aside than I am.

Fizz

08-09-2023, 12:33 PM

Well, my answer to the same question didn't contradict fundamental rules baked into the setting. I guess you're just more comfortable setting such things aside than I am.

I don't think i'm contradicting either. The rules refer to the priest's "faith", not specific deity, does it not?

-Fizz

Magnus Argent

08-09-2023, 02:01 PM

I don't think i'm contradicting either. The rules refer to the priest's "faith", not specific deity, does it not?

-Fizz

But you are, Blanche. You are!

I've already shared my findings. Rather than repeat myself, I shall simply say: scroll up ;)

Fizz

08-09-2023, 10:06 PM

But you are, Blanche. You are!
I've already shared my findings. Rather than repeat myself, I shall simply say: scroll up ;)

Let's see. Scrolling up, you said:

We know from the Core Rulebook that priests must select one god to worship. We also know that temple holdings represent shrines, monasteries, and temples of the priest's faith and that holding levels represent a percentage of the population who have embraced the regent's faith as their own. And we know from the Book of Priestcraft that, for game purposes, a "faith" is defined as the sum total of all temple holdings the priest regent controls. Our default expectation for any faith is that they follow these rules.

So let's go through each one.

1: priests must select one god to worship: I agree.

2: holdings represent shrines, monasteries, and temples of the priest's faith: I agree.

3: holding levels represent a percentage of the population who have embraced the regent's faith as their own:
Here I disagree. The Core Rulebook says it represents the fraction of population attending the priest's temples. Attending is not the same as embracing. Thus it does not require those attendees be dedicated to the priest's deity.

Faiths vary greatly even when they are effectively monotheistic, sometimes so significantly that it can lead to war. That means the "faith" is a mortal construct, not an absolute determined by the deity. And if it is a mortal construct, a "faith" could be defined in many ways, multiple deities included. It is not incongruous to primarily serve one deity while accepting the roles of other deities (like patron saints, perhaps).

You yourself asked:

But, if it is impossible for a priest regent to create faith that embraces two or more gods, how is it possible that the Temple of Might exists?

We know the Temple of Might exists and is described as serving two gods, so it's not impossible. :) So what i've proposed is a plausible mechanism that reconciles such a case within the framework above. I have found nothing in the rules that prevents or contradicts such an interpretation.

-FIzz

Magnus Argent

08-10-2023, 02:17 AM

Let's see. Scrolling up, you said:

So let's go through each one.

1: priests must select one god to worship: I agree.

2: holdings represent shrines, monasteries, and temples of the priest's faith: I agree.

3: holding levels represent a percentage of the population who have embraced the regent's faith as their own:

Here I disagree. The Core Rulebook says it represents the fraction of population attending the priest's temples. Attending is not the same as embracing. Thus it does not require those attendees be dedicated to the priest's deity.

Point 3 is how you can have multi-deity faiths. Even if the priest is dedicated to one deity in particular, his "faith" may encompass several (as i said earlier, perhaps it's kind of like patron saints). In general, the flock will lean towards the priest's deity, sure, but it is not a requirement, as it depends on what the "faith" is.

Faiths vary greatly even when they are effectively monotheistic, sometimes so significantly that it can lead to war. That means the "faith" is a mortal construct, not an absolute determined by the deity. And if it is a mortal construct, a "faith" could be defined in many ways, multiple deities included.

You yourself asked:

And i've given you a way to reconcile this. It is not impossible (if it were, the Temple of Might wouldn't be described as such), and a possible mechanism for such is what i described above. I have found nothing in the rules that prevents or contradicts such an interpretation.

-FIzz

Now who's being disingenuous?

Fizz

08-10-2023, 02:52 PM

Now who's being disingenuous?

How so?

The fundamental point of our difference i think is what a "faith" is. It is not an explicitely defined term aside from "sum of the priest's temple holdings" which says nothing about the nature of those holdings. Is there anything in the Birthright material that says a "faith" must consist of only one deity? I don't think there is.

But we do have examples in the material (such as the Temple of Might) that indicate it is possible (though rare).

Another example from Book of Priestcraft: Several temples of Avani and Cuiraecen include temples/shrines to Laerme. This suggests those churches, primarily dedicated to Avani and Cuiraecen, will have a portion of their attendees there to worship Laerme. So those "faiths" include followers to multiple deities. (And clearly the temple-holder is ok with it, else why would they allow the shrines on their temple grounds and allow priests of Laerme to tend them?)

-Fizz

Magnus Argent

08-10-2023, 09:10 PM

But we do have examples in the material (such as the Temple of Might) that indicate it is possible (though rare).

You keep saying the Temple of Might supports your theory but we've already discussed the fact that the Temple of Might is a "multi-faith" in name only. This was a point you acknowledged at the time without demur.

Another example from Book of Priestcraft: Several temples of Avani and Cuiraecen include temples/shrines to Laerme. This suggests those churches, primarily dedicated to Avani and Cuiraecen, will have a portion of their attendees there to worship Laerme. So those "faiths" include followers to multiple deities. (And clearly the temple-holder is ok with it, else why would they allow the shrines on their temple grounds and allow priests of Laerme to tend them?)

Great examples, wrong conclusion.

Yes, absolutely.. priests of Laerme can tend to shrines devoted to their goddess within Avani or Cuiraecen's larger temples. These shrines would be a part of the priest of Laerme's domain (apparently not even large enough to warrant being considered a Temple (0) holding). Like the Temple of Might, these are examples of two allied faiths. We know that a faith is composed of all temple holdings under the control of a single priest regent. Two regents in these examples = two different, albeit allied (or possibly vassal), faiths. If there were priests listed as having two gods, I'd gladly agree with you that a singe faith can encompass worship of multiple gods.

You've been arguing in favor of a topic (people who worship more than one deity) that in theory makes sense but the mechanics you propose for that theory are untenable because they contradict the rules. No offense intended but I think it's incredibly funny that I looked at your theory and suggested out a way to make it work that doesn't conflict with the rules -- and you are STILL arguing against me.

Fizz

08-11-2023, 01:27 AM

You keep saying the Temple of Might supports your theory but we've already discussed the fact that the Temple of Might is a "multi-faith" in name only. This was a point you acknowledged at the time without demur.

I agree that the Temple of Might has that aspect. I don't doubt that there are internal forces at work to change the status, and it may not be stable in the long run. But per BoP there are currently no split holdings there- it's not that Chernivik has half and a priest of Kriesha the other half. Chernivik owns all of them. Per BoP "a faith is composed of all the temple holdings under the leadership of a single priest regent". And it specifically says that Kriesha is also worshipped at those temples. Thus by definition it is a faith with two deities.

You keep claiming i'm ignoring the rules, but using the rules as stated in BoP leads to this conclusion. I could thus argue you are the one who is ignoring the rules. :) LOL. (Just having fun.)

Great examples, wrong conclusion.
Thank you... for the first half at least... lol.

Yes, absolutely.. priests of Laerme can tend to shrines devoted to their goddess within Avani or Cuiraecen's larger temples. These shrines would be a part of the priest of Laerme's domain (apparently not even large enough to warrant being considered a Temple (0) holding). Like the Temple of Might, these are examples of two allied faiths. We know that a faith is composed of all temple holdings under the control of a single priest regent. Two regents in these examples = two different, albeit allied (or possibly vassal), faiths. If there were priests listed as having two gods, I'd gladly agree with you that a singe faith can encompass worship of multiple gods.

Hmmmm... interesting. If there were (0) level holdings listed in those domains, i would see your point, If it's not at least a (0) level holding, then Laerme's priest doesn't own it, it is not part of her domain. So if the shrine/temple is on the property of another priest, it must be part of that priest's domain, does it not? If it were a seperate domain, however small, it would be listed separately as level (0). No?

You've been arguing in favor of a topic (people who worship more than one deity) that in theory makes sense but the mechanics you propose for that theory are untenable because they contradict the rules.

But i don't see the contradiction that you're claiming. Where in the rules does it say a faith can't be comprised of multiple deities? A priest may be dedicated to one god, but that doesn't mean he can't call on a different deity for specific or related issues. For example, a priest of Haelyn might incorporate Nesirie for helping his flock deal with the loss of family members in battle. That doesn't mean he is rejecting Haelyn, it's just a recognition that different deities have different strengths. So combined, as a simple case, that could make up the priest's faith. How does that contradict any rule?

And yes, i think the Temple of Might still counts as an example too (per above). Maybe it is unstable due to internal ambitions, but i see no reason a stable one could not exist.

No offense intended but I think it's incredibly funny that I looked at your theory and suggested out a way to make it work that doesn't conflict with the rules -- and you are STILL arguing against me.

I'm not saying your idea is without merit. My not commenting on it was not meant as a dismissal. Apologies if it was taken that way. I was just focused on the multiple-deity faith point. :) So let me comment on your idea by first re-quoting you:

Perhaps one priest regent can't create a faith that embraces more than one god but, if two different priests created two different faiths and proclaimed a formal relationship between their two domains -- the same way two rulers can be made into allies or vassals -- that would provide the right environment where honoring more than one god would be socially, legally, and spiritually acceptable.

I see your point. We could not call it a single faith as that requires there be a single leader (per BoP). So this arrangement would essentially be two allied domains, rather than a single unified faith, yes? I can't recall offhand, is there a mechanism for unifying / sharing holdings (law or otherwise) or other assets? Or is it always considered two domains linked by treaty?

-Fizz

Magnus Argent

08-11-2023, 07:56 AM

I can't recall offhand, is there a mechanism for unifying / sharing holdings (law or otherwise) or other assets? Or is it always considered two domains linked by treaty?

-Fizz

I can't think of any mechanism that allows the sharing of holdings.

The closest example I can think of is in Rheulgard where you have one realm with three different law regents. Rheulgard is divided into 3 different cantons (4 if you include Zedforst, 5 if you also include Pascht/Da Banshee), with a different law regent invested with rulership of each canton. They *do* have one shared asset, though: I believe they share a single treasury (excluding the Banshee, of course).

Osprey

08-11-2023, 02:45 PM

Regency rules in Birthright tend to be obsessed with a winner takes all approach. That is, whoever is regent of a holding gets all the RP from the holding, and directs the holdings at a domain level. however, I think this must be understood as a simplification of the reality of a domain.

It's well-established that every non-Source domain has a whole host of lieutenants, advisors, courtiers, workers, citizens, etc. Usually this is a pyramidal hierarchy (with some exceptions like halflings and some guilds), and the loyalty of these followers must ultimately be to the regent, although this can and often is really loyalty to one's direct master, lord, or boss within the hierarchy. Only the top tier the pyramid swears direct fealty to the regent as far as I understand it.

All that is being said to point out that there's a diversity of loyalties and perspectives within any domain's sphere of control that all channel upward to the regent at the top. This does not make every follower the same in mindset or belief or even in to whom their greatest loyalty lies. If a local lord rebels against the regent Duke, it is almost certain the majority of their own followers will follow them into rebellion in most cases. Because their primary loyalty is to their local lord - not the Duke.

To me, this makes it a lot easier to envision a polytheistic temple organization, whose primary deity is defined by the regent at its head, but whose worship can easily include worshippers of all accepted deities within the primary deity's family. Indeed, I think this is how the original Imperial Temple of Anuire must have been - likely honoring all of the Cerilian deities except Kreisha and Belenik (and I'm not sure about Eloele).

Moreover, don't just think of who the lay people are worshipping when they go to church services - what about all of the other members of the clergy and temple hierarchy? Temple guards? Clerks and scribes? Acolytes?

Where is it written that every member of a temple must share the regent's primary devotion to the head deity?

Couldn't an Archprelate of Haelyn - regent of the Imperial Temple - have had priests of Neserie, Cuiraecen, and every other accepted deity serving within the temple ranks, tending shrines of their patrons and even running services to those deities? So long as those priests all swear fealty to the Archprelate as regent, I don't see a conflict except with monotheistic-type zealot members who refuse to acknowledge a place in worship for any deity besides their own.

I can't think that the Imperial Temple would have been any other way. It's just that Cerilia after the fall of the Empire led to a shattering and division of the united pantheon just as it did of the realms, guilds, and loyalties of its former members. Temples became more competitive and less tolerant of competing deities and divided loyalties among their followers.

Indeed, I think it is as worthy a goal for any temple regent to aspire to create an inclusive temple that honors all members of the pantheon as it is for a landed regent to seek to unite warring realms into a new kingdom or empire.

masterdaorin

08-11-2023, 05:08 PM

OK, I think we're mostly in agreement. I don't think they need to be as generally secretive though, i think it can be justified for other related deities (ie Haelyn-Nesirie).

They don't - unless it makes sense to the situation at hand.

For example, I bet Eloele gets a lot more worship than the core material lets on... but no one is going to openly admit to that. It's not socially acceptable in any society we have in Cerilia.

The point being, the core rules have simplified that to say that the majority of the RP from that temple goes to only one deity - it's not split among lots of them (even though that is the true reality within the game world).

masterdaorin

08-11-2023, 05:27 PM

But we do have examples in the material (such as the Temple of Might) that indicate it is possible (though rare).

It's not rare, though - though the core material gives the impression as such.

It's exactly as Osprey has written above.

You two keep quoting the Temple of Might, which is a great example of this idea in practice in Cerilia.

The Temple of Might worships two deities - that's Vos society's religious practices in a nutshell. It was the original temple of Vosgaard. The Vos people worship Belinik and Kriesha. The preference, being that Vos society is highly stratified and patriarchal, is that Belinik is the prime god, and that everyone acknowledges his supremacy.

However, after the Free League blew up Vos society, and challenged their traditional norms, the Vos people began to question their values. This is the whole Torva vs. Nona schism currently happening within Vos society today.

This has created, like elsewhere in Cerilia, divisions in their religious institutions. We also have the One True Church - which, I would argue, is more Belinik-centric than its predecessor.

But, interestingly enough, we also now have some of the older temples now lead by priestesses of Kriesha. However, it's still the Temple of Might, and its worshippers still pray to and devote themselves to Belinik - it's only proper. That's the Vos way.

And, even more interestingly, the only temples that are strictly devoted to Kriesha are OUTSIDE Vosgaard... which makes sense... because those peoples aren't Vos, and don't hold to Vos values.

That's not to say that Belinik isn't worshipped in those temples too... if anything, that's probably where the worship of Belinik is exclusively done, in those regions... unless it makes sense for it to be done another way (q.v. the Vampire's Hold).

masterdaorin

08-11-2023, 05:33 PM

I can't think of any mechanism that allows the sharing of holdings.

How about lieutenancy? A regent's lieutenant(s) use the regent's holdings to do tasks in the regents name...

There is a realm spell, I think, that allows the sharing of source holdings, as well...

Those are just two examples.

The closest example I can think of is in Rheulgard where you have one realm with three different law regents. Rheulgard is divided into 3 different cantons (4 if you include Zedforst, 5 if you also include Pascht/Da Banshee), with a different law regent invested with rulership of each canton. They *do* have one shared asset, though: I believe they share a single treasury (excluding the Banshee, of course).

In this case, these are three separate regents. They share more than one asset though - it only makes sense. It also only makes sense for one regent to pay the cost of certain things, and that the other two regents have an agreement to donate RP/GB to each other to help out.

masterdaorin

08-11-2023, 06:00 PM

Couldn't an Archprelate of Haelyn - regent of the Imperial Temple - have had priests of Neserie, Cuiraecen, and every other accepted deity serving within the temple ranks, tending shrines of their patrons and even running services to those deities? So long as those priests all swear fealty to the Archprelate as regent, I don't see a conflict except with monotheistic-type zealot members who refuse to acknowledge a place in worship for any deity besides their own.

Correct.

Think of a culture's religion this way: take the Khinasi.

Avani is the Mother. She is the Head. The Divine Giver of Life. The Sun. All else revolves around her, to the Khinasi way of thinking - including the other gods. All other gods are subservient to her, according to the Khinasi - even though this is not the actual reality. But the Khinasi's devotion of their patroness makes her so. Her husband, the Caretaker of Nature, still acknowledges his need of Her for his domain. Without the Sun, there can be no Life, no nature. In the same way, without the nurturing power of the light, there can be no Love. Her daughter, and all that she represents, would be lost to the Shadow.

The same applies to Moradin. The dwarves acknowledge his supremacy above all others. He is a greater god.

The same applies to Haelyn. Pay particular attention to the iconography of this religion - it also includes the sun. That is by no accident - and it is very significant, I can assure you. Haelyn is the Sky God, the Father of All, the Guardian of the (Life-giving) Light. The Anuireans acknowledge him as the Heir of Anduiras, the greatest and leader of the Old Gods, the One who led all the others against the Face of Evil.

The Anuireans have recently been taken with the worship of Avanalae. But she, as is proper for a woman (according to the Anuirean way of thinking), is still subservient to Haelyn. She is important - she is the divine representation of the Sun, after all - but, Haelyn still protects Her. That is his job, his divine providence. He is the Guardian of the Heavens, and all that it encompasses (i.e. the Sun and stars). The Noble Lord of all the Gods.

It is only proper you give him due worship, above all other gods, even if your personal preference is for a different god, which is also fine. Because Haelyn is also a benevolent god. He recognizes the others who served him at Deismaar, and opposed Evil. He recognizes that each person has their own needs, and their unique path that they must follow in order to finally reach their ultimate destination - in Haelyn's Glory, serving the Noble Father and his Wife and Son, and his Allies against Evil.

The Khinasi would disagree with the above sentiment... but that's the religious ideology of Cerilia. It applies to all the different religions of this continent.

Fizz

08-12-2023, 03:03 AM

Wow, out for one day and i miss so much interesting discussion.

Where is it written that every member of a temple must share the regent's primary devotion to the head deity?
Couldn't an Archprelate of Haelyn - regent of the Imperial Temple - have had priests of Neserie, Cuiraecen, and every other accepted deity serving within the temple ranks, tending shrines of their patrons and even running services to those deities? So long as those priests all swear fealty to the Archprelate as regent, I don't see a conflict except with monotheistic-type zealot members who refuse to acknowledge a place in worship for any deity besides their own.

I really like this; thinking about not just the flock but the underlying temple hierarchy as well. Things can get quite interesting when one looks closer than the high-level view.

-Fizz

Magnus Argent

08-12-2023, 09:11 AM

Correct.

Think of a culture's religion this way: take the Khinasi.

Avani is the Mother. She is the Head. The Divine Giver of Life. The Sun. All else revolves around her, to the Khinasi way of thinking - including the other gods. All other gods are subservient to her, according to the Khinasi - even though this is not the actual reality. But the Khinasi's devotion of their patroness makes her so. Her husband, the Caretaker of Nature, still acknowledges his need of Her for his domain. Without the Sun, there can be no Life, no nature. In the same way, without the nurturing power of the light, there can be no Love. Her daughter, and all that she represents, would be lost to the Shadow.

The same applies to Moradin. The dwarves acknowledge his supremacy above all others. He is a greater god.

The same applies to Haelyn. Pay particular attention to the iconography of this religion - it also includes the sun. That is by no accident - and it is very significant, I can assure you. Haelyn is the Sky God, the Father of All, the Guardian of the (Life-giving) Light. The Anuireans acknowledge him as the Heir of Anduiras, the greatest and leader of the Old Gods, the One who led all the others against the Face of Evil.

The Anuireans have recently been taken with the worship of Avanalae. But she, as is proper for a woman (according to the Anuirean way of thinking), is still subservient to Haelyn. She is important - she is the divine representation of the Sun, after all - but, Haelyn still protects Her. That is his job, his divine providence. He is the Guardian of the Heavens, and all that it encompasses (i.e. the Sun and stars). The Noble Lord of all the Gods.

It is only proper you give him due worship, above all other gods, even if your personal preference is for a different god, which is also fine. Because Haelyn is also a benevolent god. He recognizes the others who served him at Deismaar, and opposed Evil. He recognizes that each person has their own needs, and their unique path that they must follow in order to finally reach their ultimate destination - in Haelyn's Glory, serving the Noble Father and his Wife and Son, and his Allies against Evil.

The Khinasi would disagree with the above sentiment... but that's the religious ideology of Cerilia. It applies to all the different religions of this continent.

I like the narrative but I'm not sure it really works. First of all, there is no sign that Erik is a part of the Khinasi pantheon. He's worshipped as Irakihan in Vosgaard, Aeric in Anuire and Brechtur, and Erik in Rjuvik. I don't think he's even mentioned once in the cities of the Sun supplement. He has no temples in Khinasi, and Avani's entry in the BoP doesn't even bother to list him as an ally.

And, as for the temple of Avanalae in Anuire, it is described as being a splinter group from the Ariyan Temple of Avani. Yes, the Anuireanized her name but they still follow the Ariyan Temples lead in matters of dogma.. and I'm sure the Ariyan Temple doesn't embrace any such notion of Avani/Avanalae being under Haelyn's protection.

Given the fact that there are eight different sects who worship Haelyn, all with differing doctrines, I'm not sure any one blanket statement regarding how Anuireans view Haelyn is going to be wholly accurate. People in Diemed see Haelyn as being a stickler for the law and society's rules and maintaining social order. Of all the different sects, only the Western Imperial Temple seems to be tolerant of other religions. The Northern Imperial Temple don't even allow the worship of other gods within their borders.

Magnus Argent

08-12-2023, 10:11 AM

Where is it written that every member of a temple must share the regent's primary devotion to the head deity?

Um, the Core Rulebook. Holdings represent temples, shrines, and monasteries of the regent's faith. For game purposes, a faith is composed of temple holdings controlled by a single priest regent. Holding levels represent the portion of a province's population who views the priest regent as their spiritual leader. To say that a priest of one god has the spiritual authority of priests who worship a different deity seems a bit of a stretch.

Am I missing something? I mean, I just don't see how a priest of god X is going to acknowledge a priest of god Y as their spiritual leader? Isn't that a bit like a jewish rabbi attending a catholic church and acknowledging the Pope as his religious superior?

Couldn't an Archprelate of Haelyn - regent of the Imperial Temple - have had priests of Neserie, Cuiraecen, and every other accepted deity serving within the temple ranks, tending shrines of their patrons and even running services to those deities? So long as those priests all swear fealty to the Archprelate as regent, I don't see a conflict except with monotheistic-type zealot members who refuse to acknowledge a place in worship for any deity besides their own.

Well, ancient Greece was polythestic. The people of Athens had to choose between Athena and Poseidon -- it was a one or the other proposition. Cities of Ancient Egypt were often dedicated to a single deity. Just because a society is polytheistic doesn't mean rivalry between temples can't exist. In fact, it seems like it would only be MORE competitive.

In Cerilia, the BoP is clear that a faith is composed of holdings controlled by a single regent priest. Since Priests worship one god, his temples therefore are devoted to one god. Why would worshippers of another god come to his temple to pray? They wouldn't.
But if two faiths were allied and the shrine of one god was inside the temple of the allied god, it absolutely makes sense.

The default state of affairs in Cerilia seem to be 1 god per faith/regent/temple. That's not to say that thing's CAN'T be different. But it seems like such cases are specifically pointed out because they are exceptions to the rule.

I do want to point out that there IS a deity who is presented as being called upon by the followers of other gods -- Laerme.

I would say that definitively proves that it IS possible for the follower of one god to call for favor from another god. But, since Laerme is the only god described this way, I believe she is the exception to the rule. That said, since the rules don't elaborate, my interpretation is no more valid than anyone else's so I leave it to you arrive at your own conclusions. ;)

Fizz

08-12-2023, 12:30 PM

Um, the Core Rulebook. Holdings represent temples, shrines, and monasteries of the regent's faith. For game purposes, a faith is composed of temple holdings controlled by a single priest regent.

Well, i thought my previous post, using those exact same words would have convinced you (Chernivik owns all the holdings and two gods are worshipped...). :) The priest's faith need not encompass a singular deity. The book doesn't say "priest's deity". It says "priest's faith". Oh well.

Isn't that a bit like a jewish rabbi attending a catholic church and acknowledging the Pope as his religious superior?

It's not a fair comparison, because those religions accept the existence of only one deity, even though they're both part of the same tradition. To those religions, there is only one god, the god of everything, so to speak.

But Birthright is a polytheistic setting. The gods, plural, are absolutely known to exist. Even if you don't agree with a deity, you can't deny their existence. They demonstrably exist. Further, it is known and accepted that the gods have different portfolios- they are not gods of everything. And several of them are allied, or related, etc, or the faith has its own hierarcy or belief as masterdaorin illustrated. So i see no reason that priests of different deities could not work together.

-Fizz

Magnus Argent

08-12-2023, 02:59 PM

Well, i thought my previous post, using those exact same words would have convinced you (Chernivik owns all the holdings and two gods are worshipped...). :) The priest's faith need not encompass a singular deity. The book doesn't say "priest's deity". It says "priest's faith". Oh well.

Chernivik doesn't own all of the holdings; a priestess of Kriesha in Venenoeye has the other half.

It's not a fair comparison, because those religions accept the existence of only one deity, even though they're both part of the same tradition. To those religions, there is only one god, the god of everything, so to speak.

But Birthright is a polytheistic setting. The gods, plural, are absolutely known to exist. Even if you don't agree with a deity, you can't deny their existence. They demonstrably exist. Further, it is known and accepted that the gods have different portfolios- they are not gods of everything. And several of them are allied, or related, etc, or the faith has its own hierarcy or belief as masterdaorin illustrated. So i see no reason that priests of different deities could not work together.

No one is denying Birthright is polythestic. But even different sects who worship the same god are presented as being rivals. And if every faith worships multiple deities, how is it that Talinie outlaws the worship of anyone but Haelyn?

Fizz

08-12-2023, 07:33 PM

Chernivik doesn't own all of the holdings; a priestess of Kriesha in Venenoeye has the other half.

Ah, good point. I keep forgetting that because Velenoye's temples are not listed in BoP.

So go back to the definition of "faith" from BoP: "For game purposes, a faith is composed of temple holdings controlled by a single priest." Therefore, Lida and Chernivik each rule their own faith, which happen to share the same name. Chernivik's faith is all the temples that he controls, and it explicitely says that both Belinik and Kriesha are worshipped there. So, by definition from BoP Chernivik's "faith" includes multiple deities.

No one is denying Birthright is polythestic. But even different sects who worship the same god are presented as being rivals. And if every faith worships multiple deities, how is it that Talinie outlaws the worship of anyone but Haelyn?

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not saying every faith includes multiple deities. I'm saying it's highly variable, all based on the individual priest-regent and which deities he's (and maybe followers) are willing to accept. Some priest-regents will demand only one deity, others may accept several. Faiths are the product of mortals, and thus can be as varied as the people who rule and follow them.

-Fizz

Magnus Argent

08-12-2023, 07:58 PM

OK, fair enough. I keep forgetting that because Velenoye's temples are not listed in BoP.

So go back to the definition of "faith" from BoP: "For game purposes, a faith is composed of temple holdings controlled by a single priest." Therefore, Lida and Chernivik each rule their own faith, which happen to share the same name. Chernivik's faith is all the temples that he controls, and it explicitely says that both Belinik and Kriesha are worshipped there. So, by definition from BoP Chernivik's "faith" includes multiple deities.

You think Chernivik worships Kriesha? I dare you to say that to his face. ;)

It explicitly says that the Temple of Might worships Beliniik and Kriesha. And it does. In Velenoeye, they worship Kriesha. In Kozlovnyy they worship Belinik. The two are explicitly presented as being two separate and distinct orders. They don't just happen to share the same name. They share the same name by agreement: two different but allied faiths working together. Two faiths. Two regents. Two gods. One alliance.

Fizz

08-12-2023, 11:47 PM

You think Chernivik worships Kriesha? I dare you to say that to his face. ;)

No, i wouldn't! LOL. But i would say that Kriesha is part of his faith, and some members of his flock worship Kriesha.

It explicitly says that the Temple of Might worships Beliniik and Kriesha. And it does. In Velenoeye, they worship Kriesha. In Kozlovnyy they worship Belinik. The two are explicitly presented as being two separate and distinct orders. They don't just happen to share the same name. They share the same name by agreement: two different but allied faiths working together. Two faiths. Two regents. Two gods. One alliance.

Exactly, they are two different faiths (holdings by a specific priest-regent).
In one of those faiths, Chernevik's, both deities are worshipped (BoP, page 29). Perhaps Chernevik is working to change that, but for now he's got worshippers of both deities in his flock.

I think this view is also supported by CotS. The entry for Chernevik makes no mention of Kriesha; he is certainly a Belinik-guy. However the page for Kozlovnny does refer to the Temple of Might there as being for the faithful of both Belinik and Kriesha.

-Fizz

Osprey

08-13-2023, 12:55 PM

No one is denying Birthright is polythestic. But even different sects who worship the same god are presented as being rivals. And if every faith worships multiple deities, how is it that Talinie outlaws the worship of anyone but Haelyn?

Because in the divided post-Imperial period, intolerant zealots and jealous regents vying for total control of their followers have become commonplace.

I think you are mistaking the state of the world as it is currently expressed for the state of the world as it has been and always will be. They are related, but not necessarily the same.

And Talinie is absolutely one of the most zealous and intolerant of all temples as far as I can tell. I actually find the idea that they are a Lawful Good temple to be rather inconsistent with that intolerance. It's hard for me to equate Good with "despises and persecutes everyone who believes differently than they do."

I think Lawful Neutral would be a more appropriate alignment for Talinie and its temples (and a lot of Paladins for that matter, if the rules allowed it; but D&D has always seemed to embrace the idea that religious zealot murder-hobos can be Good, just like the Catholic Church upheld the Crusades as "good." it takes a very special world view to see things this way, and I think it is one of the most outdated and immature aspects of Dungeons and Dragons laid out by the creators from the earliest days).

For what it's worth, I'd agree that a case might be made for Thuriene Donalls to still be a Lawful Good character, as she seems to be at odds with the more conservative members of her church and realm, from what I could tell in the Atlas description of the realm. But I think realms and organizations do not always line up neatly with their regents' alignments (something else that I think is often over-simplified when looking at top-only descriptions of realms in the Atlas)

The super-rigid and intolerant OIT in Diemed is appropriately aligned as LN. I think a better case for the WIT being Lawful Good could be made than for the NIT.

But I digress. :P

Osprey

08-13-2023, 01:32 PM

A good example that supports my idea of a collective, multi-faith Imperial Temple is the case of the Militant Order of Cuiraecen. In its history it is explicitly described as once being part of the Imperial Temple, then stayed with Healyn's Aegis when they broke away from the OIT in the Fitzalan schism and its fallout, and eventually broke away from Haleyn's Aegis to become an independent temple of Cuiracen - one which clearly still venerated Haelyn, but whose independence was based not on "which deity do we worship?", but on a more political issue of "what is the most important thing we should be doing with this temple organization?" (Answer for the MOC = fighting Awnshegh and other threats to the people of Anuire.")

Cuiraécen was born in the third century after Deismaar, and by the beginning of the fourth century, the Stormlord was inspiring orders of knighthood within the Imperial Temple. In the fifth century, priests began to cast spells in the name of the God of Battle, and by the 6th century, a temple was established to Cuiraécen alone in the hills overlooking the Spiderfell in the province of Rhumannen in the Duchy of Ghieste.

This first temple was originally part of the Imperial Temple organization, but after the schism of Haelyn's faith and the split of the Northern Imperial Temple from the Imperial Temple, a dispute arose between Blaede Vathormane, the Lord Marshal of the knights of the Holy Order of Haelyn's Aegis and the leadership of the Imperial Temple in Aerele.
....
By the end of the fourth century, the leaders of Haelyn's Aegis were advocating diplomacy and cooperation as their chief tools, and though they maintained a military style organization, and worshiped Haelyn as the Lord of Noble War, they ceased to be an aggressive military order. Under this situation the temples of Cuiraécen felt restricted and unfulfilled. They too broke away from Haelyn's Aegis, though they maintain friendly and cooperative relations with them even today. With their separation, the Church of Storm's Height also separated from the temples of Haelyn in Osoerde.
http://www.birthright.net/forums/showwiki.php?title=Militant%20Order%20of%20Cuiraec en

AndrewTall

08-13-2023, 04:13 PM

For me the question is "what works best in the game you want to play", that should then dictate the "back-story" you decide upon for how things are or why they do/don't act in certain ways and what game mechanics you use.

"A one priest domain = one god worshiped by everyone in it" perspective is hard to reconcile with rapid changes in domain levels in my view. A brief consideration of how long the protestant/catholic schism caused issues in England to name but one fairly well written about example suggests that if such a view is taken of priestly domains then the only way to mechanically change domain levels significantly would involve Albigensian crusade style genocide, possible of course (as numerous examples in history prove) but morally problematic from today's perspective.

If you want temple holding levels to be able to contested, ruled, etc on a domain turn basis just like any other holding type, then you need loyalty to the regent/organisation to be similarly fluid in all holding types. It's easy to think of guild sub-domains changing allegiance to a new guild given the right incentive, and not that hard to see it in law holdings given a popular interpretation of the medieval mind-set of the nobility, but temple domains get much harder to see as changing allegiance if you tie the religious belief/dogma of the faithful directly to the holding and regent.

As an alternative you could take a view of a temple domain as a network of subdomains just like a noble's law domain is system of vassalage (small "v") comprised of lesser ranking nobles, or a guild could be a conglomeration of a network of local sub-guilds. In this approach the relative fluidity of temple holdings in the game mechanics then represents changing the allegiances of key individuals in sub-domains rather than mass change in belief of the followers.

As an example take a temple of Haelyn in which the lead church theology is that the other gods exist and, aside from the evil gods, the gods are members of Haelyn's court with their own spheres of competence, but where Haelyn is a very active king taking a direct leadership role (my take on the traditional Anuirean theolgical view). The temple domain could then schism when a charismatic leader of a subdomain who is a priest of Cuiraecen takes the view that Haelyn is relatively distant king who delegates most "day-to-day affairs" to Cuiraecen (if you are a GoT fan, Cuiraecen would then be the "king's hand"). The Priest of Cuiraecen then starts following his own direction and running his domain as he sees best with lip-service at best to orders from the parent church, the schism is then mechanically represented by a new temple domain for the Priest of Cuiraecen, albeit one possibly a vassal to the parent church.

In this approach there is no change in underlying belief systems of anyone even the priest regents involved as a result of the schism, indeed most of the faithful in both domains might well not know anything had happened at all, with many of those in them who do merely seeing it as a political dispute between the two regent's.

In this approach the faith of the regent is then also not necessarily the same as that of all their faithful, indeed you could see cases where it wasn't the same as any of them if the regent was to who professes belief they don't actually hold to gain power in order to then slowly redirect the faithful towards their own beliefs - which I note makes this domain holdings much more susceptible to influence by PC's at adventure level which I would see as a good thing.

That then permits the faithful to worship one, or many gods, or to worship them all in different aspects of their lives - say praying to Nesirie for guidance after an argument with a spouse or when a relative dies, praying to Haelyn for wisdom when making a big decision, praying to Erik before planting crops, etc, which in turn permits a mis-match between temple holdings, belief and godly power if you want to base the latter off the former in your campaign.

You would need the gods to be relatively hands-off in such an interpretation, but that absentee landlord approach helps with all sorts of internal intrigue within a temple domain which in turn makes for a more interesting game in my view.

Magnus Argent

08-13-2023, 11:53 PM

For me the question is "what works best in the game you want to play", that should then dictate the "back-story" you decide upon for how things are or why they do/don't act in certain ways and what game mechanics you use.

I 100% agree. I've said all along that I support the right of any DM to make whatever changes they want in their version of Cerilia. This is a great reminder that if a rule becomes a hinderance to enjoyment of the game, bend it, break it, ignore it, or change it to better fit your campaign.

My campaigns tend to set players up to play two PCs. One is a liege/patron type who is a regent, the other a heroic adventurer in service of their regent. PC regents are allies and their heroes work together to achieve shared goals for their lords. The center of action follows the heroic adventurers while domain management is done on the sidelines. Because it's not the sole focus, domain management works best by keeping things abstract. This setup works well with the rules as written.

But there are many other ways to run campaigns, many topics left blank so DMs can fill in their blanks on their own. Earlier in the conversation, Witness3 once asserted this is the element he likes best about Birthright and I must say, I agree.

Magnus Argent

08-14-2023, 01:10 AM

Magnus Argent

08-14-2023, 02:23 AM

I am seeing a lot of attempts to justify the notion that temples represent multiple faiths.

Since I seem to be the sole voice of opposition to this concept, I want to reiterate that in the context of what you or any other DM decide to do with your version of Cerilia never needs to be justified.

My opposition to this notion is strictly in the context that it doesn't appear to be in line with the way the setting is presented in the source material. We've covered a broad range of rule interpretations. Some I agree with, some I disagree with. But canon is material that unambiguous and not open for debate. If an idea hinges on unsupported rules interpretation, it's simply not canon.

So, on behalf of those who are sticklers for such things, can anyone point to an example of a multi-faith temple in action? If I am trying to convince my gaming group to buy into the multi-faith notion, are there any unambiguous examples I can direct their attention to?

There are over a dozen Domain Sourcebooks. Do any of them follow this multi-faith paradigm?

Ilien's Sourcebook: "The faithful of the Impregnable Heart consists of scholars, tradesmen, farmers, soldiers, and others wishing the blessing of the patron of Anuire. "

Apparantly worship of one god can accommodate a broader spectrum of worship than has otherwise been suggested.
===
Talinie's Sourcebook: Strategy tips for players suggest loosening some of Talinie's restrictions on religion. "Religious freedom weakens the Northern Imperial Tenple's power base. Therefore, pursue alliances with tolerant priests in other temples."

Hmm.. Allied faiths. Who'd have thunk? Outlawing worship of other gods makes zero sense if temples represent worship of multiple gods.
===
Khourane's Sourcebook: "Khouraneans worship only two deities: Sarma and Halaia."

Khourane's only temple holdings belong to The Sword of Halaia and The Temple of Sarma. Coincidence? Probably not.
===

Am I missing something?

Doyle

08-14-2023, 12:05 PM

So, on behalf of those who are sticklers for such things, can anyone point to an example of a multi-faith temple in action? If I am trying to convince my gaming group to buy into the multi-faith notion, are there any unambiguous examples I can direct their attention to?

From the Book of Priestcraft (p29) Belinik's Temple of Might (Chernevik) "also worships Kriesha".

I cannot find my Atlas at the moment, but I'm sure I saw something similar for the Vos of Mieres.

Fizz

08-14-2023, 01:32 PM

I 100% agree. I've said all along that I support the right of any DM to make whatever changes they want in their version of Cerilia. This is a great reminder that if a rule becomes a hinderance to enjoyment of the game, bend it, break it, ignore it, or change it to better fit your campaign.

I agree too. We can disagree and debate the core / canon rules and details of the setting, and those discussions can be fun and informative on their own. But ultimately, the "right" rule is the one that makes the game the most fun for one's campaign.

-Fizz

Fizz

08-14-2023, 01:35 PM

can anyone point to an example of a multi-faith temple in action? If I am trying to convince my gaming group to buy into the multi-faith notion, are there any unambiguous examples I can direct their attention to?

From the Book of Priestcraft (p29) Belinik's Temple of Might (Chernevik) "also worships Kriesha".

To clarify this one (since i'm sure Magnus is sick of it... lol), this is also supported in CotS. Both references refer to Chernevik's holdings in Kozlovnyy alone, not those "Temple of Might" holdings in other domains (such as Lida's in Velenoye). At least, that's how it reads to me.

I'll poke through my material during the day (as i avoid working... lol) and see what else i can find.

-Fizz

Magnus Argent

08-14-2023, 02:33 PM

From the Book of Priestcraft (p29) Belinik's Temple of Might (Chernevik) "also worships Kriesha".

I cannot find my Atlas at the moment, but I'm sure I saw something similar for the Vos of Mieres.

I think you misread pg 29 of the BoP. The * is attached to the "Temple of Might." There is no * attached to Chernevik. Indeed, the Temple of Might does also worship Kriesha.. in Velenoeye. "Under her [Lida's] rule, Kriesha has risen at the expense of Belinik." (pg 11 of the Vosgaard campaign expansion book.)

For argument's sake, let's say you're interpretation is correct. Doesn't the very fact that the source material specifically states that the Temple Might worships both Belinik and Kriesha preclude such an arrangement from being the norm elsewhere?

If other temples worship multiple gods, why is there a need to mention it in the description of the Temple of Might? There wouldn't be.

If people attending a temple normally call for the favor of more than one god, why would there be a need to point out that worshippers of other gods call on Laerme regarding matters of romance? There wouldn't be.

Surely if worshipers who attend a temple venerate more than one god, at least one Domain Sourcebook would present it as such. There are what? 15 of them? 16? And, yet, none of them do.

Even so, I never said it was absolutely impossible for one temple to cater to multiple gods. My assertion was (and is) that, in the absence of material that says otherwise, the one god per temple state of affairs should be our default expectation.

One could argue that the description of the Temple of Might says otherwise. One could also point out Laerme as being another case. Great! Rules were made to be broken, right? But how do you break a rule unless it applies to everyone else? ;)

Osprey

08-14-2023, 03:33 PM

My opposition to this notion is strictly in the context that it doesn't appear to be in line with the way the setting is presented in the source material. We've covered a broad range of rule interpretations. Some I agree with, some I disagree with. But canon is material that unambiguous and not open for debate. If an idea hinges on unsupported rules interpretation, it's simply not canon.

I have been pouring through the Book of Priestcraft, the Atlas, and a few Players' Secrets books for more information on temple organizations and histories.

The sum total history of temples is pitiful - almost non-existent.

So if you are looking for "unambiguous" canon about temple history, the only answer is:
Atlas:
Every Cerilian human tribe had a patron deity who was replaced by their champion at Deismaar, with 2 replacing Azrai.

Haelyn replaced Anduiras, and became the patron deity of the Anuirean Empire and the Imperial Temple. According to the short paragraph in the Atlas, when the Imperial Temple broke down, it was replaced by multiple sects of Haelyn and temples to other Cerilian deities like Cuiraecen, Avanalae, and Sarimie.

Rulebook (Religion): In the first few centuries after Deismaar, the Cerilian deities worked closely together, but eventually rivalries and differences formed, and their mortal followers reflected those divisions.

In the BoP under Haelyn, we get a little more history: the 1297 HC Fitzalan split broke up the Imperial Temple, with the NIT forming in Talinie, and other sects splitting off soon after.

But the histories of the sects are very brief and imprecise elsewhere, and almost all sect information focuses on only two things: geographical location of the sect, and theological differences between sects.

Things like attitudes toward other deities by priests, or how tolerant the the original Imperial Temple was toward other deities (even Haelyn's wife Neserie or his son Cuiraecen), are notably absent from all canon literature that I could find.

Which means to me that canon references solve very little of the arguments presented here, and interpretation and logical deduction are all we actually have to go on.

@Magnus Argent: I understand that you believe the most logical assumption is what is implied by the canon literature: that every priest (as dictated by the 2e core rules) serves one god, and thus every temple and its followers also serve that god. It is explicitly stated in the BoP that temple holdings compared to province level represent the proportion of the population who are among the faithful, so that a temple (4) in a province (4) means 100% of that province's population follow the temple's faith.

But the canon really doesn't resolve the question of how the Imperial Temple could exclusively worship only Haelyn and not include the worship of other accepted deities, and yet somehow remain the unbroken patron temple of an Empire that included Anuire, western Khinasi, Brechtur, and (client) Rjurik. How does an exclusive and intolerant Imperial Temple of Haelyn mesh with the inclusive vision of Cerilian unification espoused by Roele - the guy who created the entire Anuirean Empire in his own lifetime? Would he really have believed that everyone in Cerilia should convert to the worship of Haleyn? Or would he have had enough wisdom to know that unification could only be possible if the other deities venerated by annexed peoples were incorporated into the patron church?

If the mortal followers reflected the attitudes of their deities (as implied in the BR Rulebook), wouldn't they also have followed a cooperative pattern in the first few centuries after Deismaar?

Alternatively, were there always temples to other deities in Anuire and elsewhere, and we just never heard about them?

Also: Where did the worship of Cuiraecen even begin? Or Neserie? Laerme? Eloele? Were all the non-Haelyn sects in Anuire created from nothing, or were they splinters of the Imperial Temple whose primary faith focus was shifted by charismatic priests who were themselves formerly members of the Imperial church?

I find the canon has few answers and massive gaps when it comes to church history and the questions revolving around polytheistic thought. I'll admit that the canon seems to imply that all priests and most people can really only venerate or be faithful to one deity at a time, implying that all people are really monotheistic by nature, and don't have room in their minds or hearts for revering more than one deity at a time. I have a hard time accepting this premise as what people in a polytheistic world would believe. But maybe I am wrong. There are precious few examples of unbiased accounts of polytheism surviving in the current time, with Hinduism being a major exception (and it has certainly been influenced by monotheistic religions too). I haven't noticed Hinduism being very influential on most Western writers of fantasy worlds, however.

This begs the question: Is this one-deity focus truly human nature reflected in the setting, or just a Western author reflecting Western thought, all steeped in nearly two thousand years of monotheistic religion stomping out rival polytheistic cultures and thoughts? We have vast records and understanding of the dominant "winner" of these contests, but little record or understanding of polytheism except through the lens of Christian writers who generally looked down on polytheism as primitive, wrong-headed mythology - which meant to them, fantasy religions and stories about fictional gods and events. Every Christian missionary knew that for conversion to work, these fictions had to be either stomped out, or reinterpreted as stories of Saints: that pagan gods were really just special people empowered by - and clearly subservient to - the one true God. Those pagans and their primitive minds just didn't realize the truth until the missionary came along to enlighten them. Go Syncretism!

***

For me, arguing about canon is not very important other than the act of referencing what was originally written. It doesn't settle many arguments in my mind because so much of what is then discussed is interpretive extrapolations. Canon references tell me how the original author wrote things, and that's it. Sure that author's ideas are the original set, and the rest of us are playing off those ideas, but it often feels like arguments about canon are stagnant and unproductive. There are no or few new ideas for DMs, no new perspectives or ways of thinking about the setting. Just this implied attitude by conservative adherents that the canon is always best and is always right, and I find that hard to accept.

To me canon material is just first, and the thing we all have or can get a copy of. And really, a new thing is always the least tested, the least reviewed, and the least refined. Which means, if others come along and wrestle with it, test it, play with variations, and see what works and what doesn't - it is rarely the best version of itself (and to his credit, Rich Baker said as much about Birthright). Many DMs and players tend to come up with brilliant additions and changes, and the only problem then becomes how the better ideas get attention when they are not commercially published and looking as pretty or official as the original.

Sure there are occasional virtuosos and geniuses in history who are really hard to duplicate or improve upon - but they are quite rare, and not usually the default for every fictional book or RPG setting ever published. Odds are, there are plenty more great ideas out there that could make the setting even better. And very often, the act of discussing different perspectives, ideas, and experiences can generate even more great ideas.

That's why I am here. It's why I read forum and discord posts, and share my own. I hope to find ideas to make my own worlds and stories better, and maybe challenge and inspire others to do the same for theirs.

Fizz

08-14-2023, 03:48 PM

I think you misread pg 29 of the BoP. The * is attached to the "Temple of Might." There is no * attached to Chernevik.
Indeed, the Temple of Might does also worship Kriesha.. in Velenoeye. "Under her [Lida's] rule, Kriesha has risen at the expense of Belinik." (pg 11 of the Vosgaard campaign expansion book.)

I see what you're saying. Unfortunately, none of the holdings in Velenoye are listed anywhere in BoP, so we don't have that as a point of comparison. But if we ignore BoP, we have:

Lida's Temple of Might: worships Kriesha in Velenoye ( per TotHW )
Cherenvik's Temple of Might: worships both Belinik and Kriesha in Kozlovnyy ( per CotS )

If people attending a temple normally call for the favor of more than one god, why would there be a need to point out that worshippers of other gods call on Laerme regarding matters of romance? There wouldn't be.

Calling on multiple gods is described in multiple places, and not just of Laerme.

For example, in BoP in Cuiraecen's section, it says that "farmers might invoke the name of Cuiraecen only to beg to be spared the ravages of a brewing storm, but it is Haelyn who provides them with spiritual guidance in their daily lives. ... Nobles may pay Cuiarecen homage when preparing for war with a neighbor, but they call upon Haelyn to aid them in managing their domains".

One could argue that the description of the Temple of Might says otherwise. One could also point out Laerme as being another case. Great! Rules were made to be broken, right? But how do you break a rule unless it applies to everyone else? ;)

Rules are for the weak! Lol. Perhaps it's more a question of whether it is an actual "rule", or just the "norm". I think this might also relate to Osprey's earlier post (#127) regarding domain-level simplifcation vs individual PC/NPC level play.

Actually, i think i have found another example. From HotGB, the Treucht Chauchen is thought by scholars to venerate both Ruornil and Erik, but neither deity as center. So this is potentially another, or perhaps even more than, two deity faith.

-Fizz

Osprey

08-14-2023, 04:16 PM

For me the question is "what works best in the game you want to play", that should then dictate the "back-story" you decide upon for how things are or why they do/don't act in certain ways and what game mechanics you use.

"A one priest domain = one god worshiped by everyone in it" perspective is hard to reconcile with rapid changes in domain levels in my view. A brief consideration of how long the protestant/catholic schism caused issues in England to name but one fairly well written about example suggests that if such a view is taken of priestly domains then the only way to mechanically change domain levels significantly would involve Albigensian crusade style genocide, possible of course (as numerous examples in history prove) but morally problematic from today's perspective.

If you want temple holding levels to be able to contested, ruled, etc on a domain turn basis just like any other holding type, then you need loyalty to the regent/organisation to be similarly fluid in all holding types. It's easy to think of guild sub-domains changing allegiance to a new guild given the right incentive, and not that hard to see it in law holdings given a popular interpretation of the medieval mind-set of the nobility, but temple domains get much harder to see as changing allegiance if you tie the religious belief/dogma of the faithful directly to the holding and regent.

As an alternative you could take a view of a temple domain as a network of subdomains just like a noble's law domain is system of vassalage (small "v") comprised of lesser ranking nobles, or a guild could be a conglomeration of a network of local sub-guilds. In this approach the relative fluidity of temple holdings in the game mechanics then represents changing the allegiances of key individuals in sub-domains rather than mass change in belief of the followers.

Andrew, I just wanted to say how much I liked this post. It's a really thoughtful way of interpreting the fluidity of temple holdings changing rapidly in the domain system.

I'd like to mention the other thing about Birthright that I have always used to justify its rapidly-changing holding levels: Regency Magic.

Honestly, I think almost all province and holding level changes happen a lot faster than in reality, with the exception of war, which has always been the fast hand of change. But even with war, it seems like in Birthright the loyalty and compliance of conquered realms can be won over - without occupation troops needed -in record time compared to real life.

Now to be fair, I think the real reason all of this happens so fast in Birthright is because it's a game, and they didn't want players to get bored with realistic rates of change.

But as a storyteller, I always used the idea that blooded regents can use their Regency to manipulate the hearts and minds of people on a mass scale (or control the magical energies of whole provinces) in just a few weeks' time - and this is nothing short of miraculous for any holding type! it gets harder to justify with growing province levels rapidly, but even there I always assumed that the regent's efforts were not only garnering the loyalty of locals and increasing productivity, but also attracting immigrants from less prosperous areas to rapidly boost the population of the province as well. Regency magic might also improve the birth rate of a province, but it can't make people grow up faster, so that idea doesn't work very well to explain rapid growth. It's more likely that high loyalty (happiness),a strong local temple (health care), and regular temple blessings (realm magic) would be the biggest influences on improving the birth rate of a province.

AndrewTall

08-15-2023, 09:32 PM

Andrew, I just wanted to say how much I liked this post. It's a really thoughtful way of interpreting the fluidity of temple holdings changing rapidly in the domain system.

Thanks, that was the driver for me to reverse engineer my concept of what holdings <are> although holdings are actually quite fluid in the setting. I found it easiest with guilds (where everyone seems happy that guilders are loyal to money more than the organisation so the idea of changing loyalties was easy), law holdings were a bit of a stretch (although robber barons, black knights and usurpers make clear that the nobles were just the same albeit with a veneer of respectability) and I think that most people struggle with the fluidity of temple holdings the most (though when you think about the borgia popes, the knights templar, etc...), but I don't see anything else working on a game play timescale.

Temples, Guilds and Sources were shorted in the setting, we get very little on them beyond comments that, at least strongly imply, monolithic organisations that a) don't fit a polytheistic setting well b) don't fit game play well and c) have anomalies like the temple of might which contains two oft opposing gods despite most write-ups being monotheistic, often rigidly so, add that to a and fit into a structure with oddities like realms with more than one regent like the red kings and the implicit recognition that non-scion realms are possible, just disadvantaged with no rules mechanics to make them possible, just a "the people would almost prefer an awnsheghlien to lead them" to discourage the idea.

As with the karamhul and humanoid races non-landed domains are an area of the setting which, in my view, had the least depth of thought to it. The PC's were expected to rule, the non landed regents were expected to support the landed regent and so got relatively little thought, which is why every realm is described but only a small number of the non landed domains and why the rules for landed domains are just mapped onto the other domains.

But as a storyteller, I always used the idea that blooded regents can use their Regency to manipulate the hearts and minds of people on a mass scale.

My thinking is that there is a big shift pre and post Deismaar, with scions "getting in between" the gods and the people. Regency is then a mixture of the influence of the scion on reality, and reality trying to suit itself to what "it thinks" the scion wants - or should want. So if a regent spends a lot of regency then the stars align their way somewhat, people pay attention to the brief mention of your will, they agree with it, etc, etc. I some of this from the BR conspectus where the scion's harmony with their bloodline etc directly influence the land.

Then I went back and tied it to the holding system, and worked to get a system that can tie in to tabletop play.

So my approach.

The loyalty of people feeds through various layers of scions until it gets to the domain regent, just like the loyalty of the village is to their resident knight, the knight then has loyalty to the local baron, the baron owes fealty to the duke, etc. In theory everyone is in accordance, but human frailties and ambition complicate matters and as with medieval nobility there is a potential for mischief, confusion and outright malevolence. The link from people to domain is then changed from a direct line into a link of chains, with the possibility of re-direction at each link in the chain.

It isn't canon, I certainly agree that, and it isn't to everyone's taste, but if you want tabletop PC heroes to give a micro-domain a real ability to grow when facing off against big established domains its very useful.

The approach also has other uses, like the "independent temples of Sera led by old father Baen" that I wrote in the expansion I did for Danigau, the people think they are worshiping Sera, the big local temple domain of Sera thinks that when old father Baen dies the temples can be quietly merged back into the fold so tolerates the old duffer for now, and meanwhile the ice lady is slowly redirecting the faith of the people away from Sera to Kriesha under everyone's nose - until those pesky PC's start to stumble onto the secret of course, at which point there is an easy path to a small temple domain for the heroic priest who uncovers the plot and defeats the ice lady.

Magnus Argent

08-15-2023, 10:36 PM

I see what you're saying. Unfortunately, none of the holdings in Velenoye are listed anywhere in BoP, so we don't have that as a point of comparison. But if we ignore BoP, we have:

Lida's Temple of Might: worships Kriesha in Velenoye ( per TotHW )
Cherenvik's Temple of Might: worships both Belinik and Kriesha in Kozlovnyy ( per CotS )

All the CotS says is that worship of Belinik and Kriesha is outlawed and that, as a result, the Temple of Might was forced to operate underground. It says nothing of the nature of the Temple of Might, itself.

The TotHW directly addresses Vos religion. It says, “Two main churches exist in Vosgaard. The first, the Temple of Might, arose as a result of the Tsarevic’s deal with the priests of the two deities, and still exists today. Designed as a temple glorifying both Belinik and Kriesha, each order of the Temple of Might has its own leanings and one deity almost always claims preeminence over the other. Since priests of both religions exist within the Temple of Might, religious wars between and within different orders exist as a matter of course.”

This material supports your assertions MUCH better than the CotS example.

For example, in BoP in Cuiraecen's section, it says that "farmers might invoke the name of Cuiraecen only to beg to be spared the ravages of a brewing storm, but it is Haelyn who provides them with spiritual guidance in their daily lives. ... Nobles may pay Cuiarecen homage when preparing for war with a neighbor, but they call upon Haelyn to aid them in managing their domains".

Yes, Farmers and Nobles may and might call on Cuiraecen or Haelyn.. I would go so far as to say they probably do. In a Province (4) with a Temple (1), 75% of the population do not attend temple services. Some may disagree with the Temple’s teachings, some may not be religious enough to want to go, some may pay lip service to all the gods.. For whatever reason, they don’t see the priest regent as their spiritual leader. It only makes sense that they would hedge their bets and call on multiple gods’ favor. Cerilia is polythestic, after all. The gods demonstrably do exist. The only people who would focus their worship on one specific deity (or two, sometimes!) are those who have a charismatic temple regent as a spiritual leader. POLY-THEEIZ-ZM, I say.

Rules are for the weak! Lol.

What, are you an Azrai lover? Haelyn would most certainly disagree. ;)

Perhaps it's more a question of whether it is an actual "rule", or just the "norm". I think this might also relate to Osprey's earlier post (#127) regarding domain-level simplifcation vs individual PC/NPC level play.

"Rule", "norm", I won't quibble over semantics. But, am I misreading what you’re saying, or are you dangerously close to agreeing with me?

Actually, i think i have found another example. From HotGB, the Treucht Chauchen is thought by scholars to venerate both Ruornil and Erik, but neither deity as center. So this is potentially another, or perhaps even more than, two deity faith.

Yes, this very well could be another example of a temple being flagged as being "Outside the norm," as you might say. In addition to it's atypical description, there is another interesting anomaly about the Treucht Chauchen. It appears in neither Erik's nor Ruornil's list of temple holdings in the BoP .. but priests of the TC are included among Ruornil's other priests when it discusses required and bonus proficiencies. I confess I've no idea what, if anything, that means.

Magnus Argent

08-15-2023, 11:29 PM

I have been pouring through the Book of Priestcraft, the Atlas, and a few Players' Secrets books for more information on temple organizations and histories.

The sum total history of temples is pitiful - almost non-existent.

So if you are looking for "unambiguous" canon about temple history, the only answer is:
Atlas:
Every Cerilian human tribe had a patron deity who was replaced by their champion at Deismaar, with 2 replacing Azrai.

Haelyn replaced Anduiras, and became the patron deity of the Anuirean Empire and the Imperial Temple. According to the short paragraph in the Atlas, when the Imperial Temple broke down, it was replaced by multiple sects of Haelyn and temples to other Cerilian deities like Cuiraecen, Avanalae, and Sarimie.

Rulebook (Religion): In the first few centuries after Deismaar, the Cerilian deities worked closely together, but eventually rivalries and differences formed, and their mortal followers reflected those divisions.

In the BoP under Haelyn, we get a little more history: the 1297 HC Fitzalan split broke up the Imperial Temple, with the NIT forming in Talinie, and other sects splitting off soon after.

But the histories of the sects are very brief and imprecise elsewhere, and almost all sect information focuses on only two things: geographical location of the sect, and theological differences between sects.

Things like attitudes toward other deities by priests, or how tolerant the the original Imperial Temple was toward other deities (even Haelyn's wife Neserie or his son Cuiraecen), are notably absent from all canon literature that I could find.

Which means to me that canon references solve very little of the arguments presented here, and interpretation and logical deduction are all we actually have to go on.

@Magnus Argent: I understand that you believe the most logical assumption is what is implied by the canon literature: that every priest (as dictated by the 2e core rules) serves one god, and thus every temple and its followers also serve that god. It is explicitly stated in the BoP that temple holdings compared to province level represent the proportion of the population who are among the faithful, so that a temple (4) in a province (4) means 100% of that province's population follow the temple's faith.

But the canon really doesn't resolve the question of how the Imperial Temple could exclusively worship only Haelyn and not include the worship of other accepted deities, and yet somehow remain the unbroken patron temple of an Empire that included Anuire, western Khinasi, Brechtur, and (client) Rjurik. How does an exclusive and intolerant Imperial Temple of Haelyn mesh with the inclusive vision of Cerilian unification espoused by Roele - the guy who created the entire Anuirean Empire in his own lifetime? Would he really have believed that everyone in Cerilia should convert to the worship of Haleyn? Or would he have had enough wisdom to know that unification could only be possible if the other deities venerated by annexed peoples were incorporated into the patron church?

If the mortal followers reflected the attitudes of their deities (as implied in the BR Rulebook), wouldn't they also have followed a cooperative pattern in the first few centuries after Deismaar?

Alternatively, were there always temples to other deities in Anuire and elsewhere, and we just never heard about them?

Also: Where did the worship of Cuiraecen even begin? Or Neserie? Laerme? Eloele? Were all the non-Haelyn sects in Anuire created from nothing, or were they splinters of the Imperial Temple whose primary faith focus was shifted by charismatic priests who were themselves formerly members of the Imperial church?

I find the canon has few answers and massive gaps when it comes to church history and the questions revolving around polytheistic thought. I'll admit that the canon seems to imply that all priests and most people can really only venerate or be faithful to one deity at a time, implying that all people are really monotheistic by nature, and don't have room in their minds or hearts for revering more than one deity at a time. I have a hard time accepting this premise as what people in a polytheistic world would believe. But maybe I am wrong. There are precious few examples of unbiased accounts of polytheism surviving in the current time, with Hinduism being a major exception (and it has certainly been influenced by monotheistic religions too). I haven't noticed Hinduism being very influential on most Western writers of fantasy worlds, however.

This begs the question: Is this one-deity focus truly human nature reflected in the setting, or just a Western author reflecting Western thought, all steeped in nearly two thousand years of monotheistic religion stomping out rival polytheistic cultures and thoughts? We have vast records and understanding of the dominant "winner" of these contests, but little record or understanding of polytheism except through the lens of Christian writers who generally looked down on polytheism as primitive, wrong-headed mythology - which meant to them, fantasy religions and stories about fictional gods and events. Every Christian missionary knew that for conversion to work, these fictions had to be either stomped out, or reinterpreted as stories of Saints: that pagan gods were really just special people empowered by - and clearly subservient to - the one true God. Those pagans and their primitive minds just didn't realize the truth until the missionary came along to enlighten them. Go Syncretism!

***

For me, arguing about canon is not very important other than the act of referencing what was originally written. It doesn't settle many arguments in my mind because so much of what is then discussed is interpretive extrapolations. Canon references tell me how the original author wrote things, and that's it. Sure that author's ideas are the original set, and the rest of us are playing off those ideas, but it often feels like arguments about canon are stagnant and unproductive. There are no or few new ideas for DMs, no new perspectives or ways of thinking about the setting. Just this implied attitude by conservative adherents that the canon is always best and is always right, and I find that hard to accept.

To me canon material is just first, and the thing we all have or can get a copy of. And really, a new thing is always the least tested, the least reviewed, and the least refined. Which means, if others come along and wrestle with it, test it, play with variations, and see what works and what doesn't - it is rarely the best version of itself (and to his credit, Rich Baker said as much about Birthright). Many DMs and players tend to come up with brilliant additions and changes, and the only problem then becomes how the better ideas get attention when they are not commercially published and looking as pretty or official as the original.

Sure there are occasional virtuosos and geniuses in history who are really hard to duplicate or improve upon - but they are quite rare, and not usually the default for every fictional book or RPG setting ever published. Odds are, there are plenty more great ideas out there that could make the setting even better. And very often, the act of discussing different perspectives, ideas, and experiences can generate even more great ideas.

That's why I am here. It's why I read forum and discord posts, and share my own. I hope to find ideas to make my own worlds and stories better, and maybe challenge and inspire others to do the same for theirs.

Would it surprise you to know that I actually feel the same way about canon?

I am less concerned about people adhering to canon than I am about being careful NOT to present our own ideas as being canon. Every time we represent our opinions and our biases as facts, we are taking away a world-building opportunity for someone who visits this site looking for an authoritative answer to a question. The designers went out of their way to give DMs opportunities to answer ambiguous questions. If we answer those ambiguous questions and present our answers as facts, we are doing visitors to this site a huge disservice.

I love the discussions that take place here. And the wiki is a pretty amazing resource. But I'm dismayed at how much fanfic is presented as canon lore and how often personal opinion is expressed as fact. I would much rather see a conscious effort to present canon as canon and opinion as opinion. That way someone who doesn't have the source material feels empowered fill in the blanks on his own. The world building aspect is something many of us enjoy. Why not let everyone else enjoy it, too?

I'm not saying anyone here is purposefully being misleading. On the contrary, the Birthright.net community pretty much has a collective heart of gold. When people ask questions here, earnest answers are freely and generously given. No one purposefully passes along misinformation or puts our own enjoyment of the setting over anyone else's.

I do also like a good debate with someone who has a different perspective than I do. Looking back on our conversation, I hope people don't misinterpret my back-and-forth with Mr. Fizz. I think he and I are on the same page in terms of enjoying this discussion because it gives us the opportunity to dive into a setting we both love and share our thoughts as we do so.

I happen to think he's right about a lot of things.. I just happen to be righter. (kidding!)

(but am I really??) ;)

Fizz

08-16-2023, 04:42 AM

All the CotS says is that worship of Belinik and Kriesha is outlawed and that, as a result, the Temple of Might was forced to operate underground. It says nothing of the nature of the Temple of Might, itself.

In CotS, on the Kozlovnyy page, it reads: "The bitter rivalry between the outlawed Temple of Might (the faithful of Belinik and Kriesha, traditional gods of the Vos), and the worship of Avani...". So i read that as there are worshippers of both gods being outlawed in Kozlovnyy.

“Designed as a temple glorifying both Belinik and Kriesha, each order of the Temple of Might has its own leanings and one deity almost always claims preeminence over the other.”

I did read that block, and i agree the church is largely split. However, i did highlight two key words from that: "almost always". "almost" means there is still at least one place where one deity has not gained preeminence. So between that line, the note in BoP that highlights "also worships Kriesha", and the reference in Kozlovnyy above, it seems to me that these holdings of Chernevik is that one place that hasn't completely split the two deities yet (though no doubt Chernevik is working on it).

Yes, Farmers and Nobles may and might call on Cuiraecen or Haelyn.. I would go so far as to say they probably do. In a Province (4) with a Temple (1), 75% of the population do not attend temple services.

Interestingly, in searching for examples yesterday, i came across the case of Danigau. There, the text specifies that 90% of the population attend services of Sera'a Perfekt Symmetry, and yet the holding count is only at 55% (10 of 18 levels in which they have presence). Is it erroneous, or is there an alternative meaning to holdings? It is noteworthy either way.

What, are you an Azrai lover? Haelyn would most certainly disagree. ;)
You've caught me and my secret temple. Lol!

Speaking of which, what about the Gorgon and his temple, the Hand of Azrai? According to the text in Ruins of Empire, the Gorgon keeps contact with the two new gods of evil, Belinik and Kriesha. Further, Blood Enemies describes the Hand of Azrai as a priestess of Azrai, Kriesha and Belinik. So it appears the church of the Gorgon is another 2-deity faith.

"Rule", "norm", I won't quibble over semantics. But, am I misreading what you’re saying, or are you dangerously close to agreeing with me?

I know... it's weird right? :)

-Fizz

Fizz

08-16-2023, 04:49 AM

I am less concerned about people adhering to canon than I am about being careful NOT to present our own ideas as being canon. ... If we answer those ambiguous questions and present our answers as facts, we are doing visitors to this site a huge disservice.

Yes, canon is the core that everyone can use and relate to. I remember the first time i noted non-canon material on the wiki: the term "cellwair", a name for the halflings. Now i don't object to the name by any means, but as far as i can tell, there is no precedent for the term in the core material. I spent a day trying to figure out from where this term originated.

I do also like a good debate with someone who has a different perspective than I do. Looking back on our conversation, I hope people don't misinterpret my back-and-forth with Mr. Fizz. I think he and I are on the same page in terms of enjoying this discussion because it gives us the opportunity to dive into a setting we both love and share our thoughts as we do so.

I agree (hmmmm... we're agreeing again... have to be careful about that... lol ). Just by having the debate made me look things up, sometimes making my position better and sometimes making me re-evaluate. Either way i learned new stuff. Too bad more of life's debates aren't more like this.

I happen to think he's right about a lot of things.. I just happen to be righter. (kidding!)
(but am I really??) ;)

No, i agree, you're kidding when you say you're righter. ;)

-Fizz

Magnus Argent

08-16-2023, 11:16 AM

I did read that block, and i agree the church is largely split. However, i did highlight two key words from that: "almost always". "almost" means there is still at least one place where one deity has not gained preeminence. So between that line, the note in BoP that highlights "also worships Kriesha", and the reference in Kozlovnyy above, it seems to me that these holdings of Chernevik is that one place that hasn't completely split the two deities yet (though no doubt Chernevik is working on it).

Did you miss the part in my post where I said that it is an example that *supports* your Temple of Might argument? Or did you ignore it purposefully so I'd have to concede the point again? :P

But, yeah, two separate orders in the one religion. Even I have to admit that, in light of that description, I cannot fairly argue that the Temple of Might being more than allied faiths is an unreasonable interpretation. It's not *my* interpretation but based on our exhaustive research, I can't argue that it's wrong.

Interestingly, in searching for examples yesterday, i came across the case of Danigau. There, the text specifies that 90% of the population attend services of Sera'a Perfekt Symmetry, and yet the holding count is only at 55% (10 of 18 levels in which they have presence). Is it erroneous, or is there an alternative meaning to holdings? It is noteworthy either way.

Let's see.. presuming that it is not erroneous, it would work like this:

34% attend services at Sera's temple and do so in earnest. 39% attend services at Sera's temple but just pay lip service. And 17% attend specifically to alley suspicious as to where their true loyalty lies. That same 17% also attend services provided by the secret cult where they express their true devotion -- for Kriesha.

34%+39%+17%= 90%

Which, of course, means that the other 10% don't attend services at either temple.

Speaking of which, what about the Gorgon and his temple, the Hand of Azrai? According to the text in Ruins of Empire, the Gorgon keeps contact with the two new gods of evil, Belinik and Kriesha. Further, Blood Enemies describes the Hand of Azrai as a priestess of Azrai, Kriesha and Belinik. So it appears the church of the Gorgon is another 2-deity faith.

The Gorgon is pretty much the exception to almost every rule. I feel like he's the poster child for the "mold me however best fits in your campaign" movement.

When it says, "The Gorgon keeps contact with the two new gods of evil.." I think they mean that literally. None can deny that, as mortals, he was their peer. I don't envision him actually worshipping either of them. More of a periodic, "Hey! Sup?" kind of thing.

But, since he's not a priest, he likely relies on the Hand of Azrai as an intermediary. Interestingly, both the Hand of Azrai and Maigian are described as being from the Far East, across the Sea of Dragons. I can't help but wonder if that's code for, "Hey, this is one of The Lost!" She is literally the only priest in all of Cerilia described as being devoted to multiple deities (Belinik, Kriesha, and Azrai).

In my version of Cerilia, the Hand of Azrai is one of the Lost. Because she is unblooded, I decided that the Lost weren't given Bloodlines by Azrai prior to Mt Deismaar (which is otherwise a perfectly reasonable theory I've seen floating around for a while). Instead, I decided Azrai gave each of them a direct connection to the shadow world, similar to the Sidhelien connection to Aebrynis. As the Sidhe can naturally draw on mebhaighl to perform true magic, the Lost were able to draw on awnmebhaighl to perform true magic.
But, when Azrai died at Deismaar, the Lost were no longer tethered to the material plane and their connection to the shadow world snapped them back to the other side of the veil. Like the Sidhelieh, the Lost immortal -- they've been trying to escape the Shadow World for the past 1500 years (with varying levels of success).

Magian managed to escape by dying. When he became a lich, he lost his connection to the Shadow World. As a lich he no longer needs a special connection to allow him to safely draw on mebhaighl or awnmebhaighl -- where normal mortals are burned to a cinder when they try to use true magic without a bloodline, undeath protects the Maigian. Since he is described as having a major bloodline, I decided he accomplished this by crafting a special phylactery that has the not only holds his life force, but is also capable of blood-thievery.

I decided the Hand of Azrai managed to escape the Shadow World by temporarily abandoning her wizardly training to become a priestess of the Cold Rider (who doesn't yet realize his is Azrai reborn). Now, she uses powerful divine magic to tether herself to Aebrynis the same way Azrai did when he was alive. She's described only as being a high level priestess (not a wizard) because in, AD&D 2nd edition, in order to become dual classed, you had to abandon your first class until the level of your 2nd class exceeds the first. Her alliance with the Gorgon didn't go as planned and he keeps her on a tight leash, preventing her from gaining the experience needed to allow her the use of her wizardry once again. If she ever did, though, she'd be a shadow version of Thelma in Treucht.

El-Sheighul managed to find a portal back to Cerilia but hasn't managed to break his connection to the Shadow World, which is why he keeps getting sucked back into it.

The Raven discovered a way to temporarily escape from the Shadow World by possessing other people's bodies -- although he must be 'invited in' to do so. Since he is described as having a True Bloodline of Azrai.. I decided the dagger-artifact mentioned in Blood Enemies was personally crafted by Azrai and it is this artifact that grants him the True bloodline. Moreover, I identified the jewel missing from its pommel as the Eye of the Viper, another artifact of enormous power, also created by Azrai (IIRC, the Eye is in Khourane, although no one knows it). Bring the two together, and the Raven will be able to sever his connection with the Shadow World, transfer the True Bloodline into the body he is possessing, and make the possession permanent. The two artifacts and the true bloodline will then allow the Raven to commit bloodtheft on .. wait for it .. the Cold Rider.

That would elevate him to a demigod AND bring this messaging thread back to the original topic of divine ascension. (OMG, how'd that happen??)

Fizz

08-16-2023, 12:24 PM

Did you miss the part in my post where I said that it is an example that *supports* your Temple of Might argument? Or did you ignore it purposefully so I'd have to concede the point again? :P

Ha! Honestly- i totally misread it. :) It was late last night and i sped read through it, and thought you said it supported "my assertions" (referring to yours) rather than "your assertions" (referring to mine). Apparently i was confused by you agreeing with me. Lol!

Let's see.. presuming that it is not erroneous, it would work like this:
34% attend services at Sera's temple and do so in earnest. 39% attend services at Sera's temple but just pay lip service. And 17% attend specifically to alley suspicious as to where their true loyalty lies. That same 17% also attend services provided by the secret cult where they express their true devotion -- for Kriesha.
34%+39%+17%= 90%
Which, of course, means that the other 10% don't attend services at either temple.

Interesting. How did you decide on those percentages?

The two artifacts and the true bloodline will then allow the Raven to commit bloodtheft on .. wait for it .. the Cold Rider.
That would elevate him to a demigod AND bring this messaging thread back to the original topic of divine ascension. (OMG, how'd that happen??)

You have really thought this through. Quite the epic storyline. And cleverly brought full circle in the thread. Nice.

-Fizz

Osprey

08-16-2023, 03:08 PM

Would it surprise you to know that I actually feel the same way about canon?

Not really. :) I was trying to be careful not to say that you were one of the conservatives I was alluding to re. canon. But I certainly run into them with every published version of games of all sorts, and certainly Birthright's been no exception, as I've had more online discussions about this setting than any other. It's a favorite, after all!

Apologies if you felt that was directed at you specifically, Magnus.

I am less concerned about people adhering to canon than I am about being careful NOT to present our own ideas as being canon. Every time we represent our opinions and our biases as facts, we are taking away a world-building opportunity for someone who visits this site looking for an authoritative answer to a question. The designers went out of their way to give DMs opportunities to answer ambiguous questions. If we answer those ambiguous questions and present our answers as facts, we are doing visitors to this site a huge disservice.

I love the discussions that take place here. And the wiki is a pretty amazing resource. But I'm dismayed at how much fanfic is presented as canon lore and how often personal opinion is expressed as fact. I would much rather see a conscious effort to present canon as canon and opinion as opinion. That way someone who doesn't have the source material feels empowered fill in the blanks on his own. The world building aspect is something many of us enjoy. Why not let everyone else enjoy it, too?

I'm not saying anyone here is purposefully being misleading. On the contrary, the Birthright.net community pretty much has a collective heart of gold. When people ask questions here, earnest answers are freely and generously given. No one purposefully passes along misinformation or puts our own enjoyment of the setting over anyone else's.

I am 100% in agreement here. I was pretty rigorously trained in academics when I went to college, and the most important thing you learn when doing research and writing papers is to be extremely careful to give proper credit where it is due, and always represent sources accurately - a lesson I have tried to apply in all discussions and writings ever since. It's very important to me to be as honest and transparent as possible when dealing with someone else's work, even though it can be a giant pain in the arse to do so.

I agree it's really important in the wiki and anywhere discussions about source material are made to reference correctly. That article about the Militant Order of Cuiraecen, for instance - I had always assumed it was based on canon material because while I own and have read a lot of source material, I haven't read all the source material. I haven't yet gotten through Cities of the Sun, Tribes of the Heartless Wastes, or a handful of Player 's Secrets, because my campaigns haven't touched on those areas enough to need them. I've also only read 1 Birthright module (Warlock of the Stonecrowns - which I used but heavily modified for my campaign a few years back), because well, I hardly ever use published modules for D&D. I prefer to write my own stories (and the wiki is a tremendous resource when you're doing that!).

But yeah - that article looked well-researched and consistent with what canon lore I did learn, and was posted as core material on the MOC, so I did assume it was canon-based material (and used it for my campaign, because the PC became the Paladin Regent of the MOC).

Osprey

08-16-2023, 03:24 PM

When it says, "The Gorgon keeps contact with the two new gods of evil.." I think they mean that literally. None can deny that, as mortals, he was their peer. I don't envision him actually worshipping either of them. More of a periodic, "Hey! Sup?" kind of thing.

But, since he's not a priest, he likely relies on the Hand of Azrai as an intermediary.

In 2e, I believe Contact Other Plane is a 5th level wizard spell, which would allow the Gorgon to speak with deities directly. This strikes me as far more suited to the Gorgon's style - I think he would absolutely hate using an intermediary, because he trusts no one and it shows dependence. Raesene needs no one and nobody!!! :D

@Magnus Where does your core material about the Hand of Azrai come from, out of curiosity? I have found almost nothing about him/her/it in the box set, and ended up re-inventing them to suit my own campaigns.

For instance, I just have the HOA temples being temples to Azrai, worshipped in his original form. That may not be the source of powers granted to clerics of the temple, but it's what I always assumed the worshippers were shown and taught (with their worship likely empowering the Cold Rider's growing power).

Where does it talk about Belenik and Kreisha being a part of that temple's worship? I'm genuinely curious where to find more information on this, as everything I have heard has always been 2nd-hand from fans.

Magnus Argent

08-16-2023, 06:54 PM

In 2e, I believe Contact Other Plane is a 5th level wizard spell, which would allow the Gorgon to speak with deities directly. This strikes me as far more suited to the Gorgon's style - I think he would absolutely hate using an intermediary, because he trusts no one and it shows dependence. Raesene needs no one and nobody!!! :D

@Magnus Where does your core material about the Hand of Azrai come from, out of curiosity? I have found almost nothing about him/her/it in the box set, and ended up re-inventing them to suit my own campaigns.

For instance, I just have the HOA temples being temples to Azrai, worshipped in his original form. That may not be the source of powers granted to clerics of the temple, but it's what I always assumed the worshippers were shown and taught (with their worship likely empowering the Cold Rider's growing power).

Where does it talk about Belenik and Kreisha being a part of that temple's worship? I'm genuinely curious where to find more information on this, as everything I have heard has always been 2nd-hand from fans.

Contact Other Plane! OF COURSE! The spell completely slipped my mind.

The Blood Enemies entry for the Gorgon dedicates a whole paragraph to the Hand of Azrai:

"The Hand of Azrai is one of the most powerful and influential people within the Gorgon's Crown, and she is the only figure in power who is not blooded. She is a mysterious woman from the lands of the far east, and her reasons for arriving and staying in the Crown are unknown. Some speculate that she is in love with the Gorgon, though her reticence and the Gorgon's impassive glare tell nothing that might pass between them. While she is unblooded, she is a high-level priestess to Azrai, Kriesha, and Belinik, and maintains their temples states far better than most other buildings outside of Kal-Saitharak."

She is also mentioned in the regular Gorgon's Crown entry in Ruins of Empire but I don't believe it provides her with any more detail than the above.

The elements in the source material that I leaned into when further defining her for my version of Cerilia were "High level priestess of Azrai, Belinik, and Kriesha", "Unblooded", and "From the lands of the far east."

For some reason, I clocked a connection between the HoA and the Magian since both are described as hailing from lands to the far east (The Magian is presented as coming from across the Sea of Dragons (which are 'lands to the far east' of Pipryet)). This is why I ran with the notion of her being one of the Lost.

My version of Cerilia has tons details that go way beyond canon but those details are always some sort of extrapolation of a nugget unearthed from the source material. It isn't canon -- but I tried to write is such that it *could* be. Nothing is to say that the HoA is one of the Lost or that the Lost are bound to the Shadow World in the manner I described in my last post. But none of those elements conflict with the source material, either. Raven legit *does* have a mysterious dagger-artifact that's missing a gem in its pommel, the Viper's Eye is partially described in the BoP, the Magian really *is* undead, and el-Sheilghul really does get sucked back into the Shadow World time and again.

So, I asked myself, "How can these descriptions ALL be true? How can one Lost have a True Bloodline, another have a Major Bloodline, another be completely unblooded, and yet another be simply described as "???"... I take great pleasure in making sense out of seemingly contradictory information and Birthright offers so many opportunities to do so (I choose to believe that this was done purposefully, as opposed to being poor editing, heh)

I wish I could tell you I had access to some hidden cache of source material that described the Hand of Azrai better than that. Truth is, I just took that one paragraph and ran with it. Hard. ;)

Magnus Argent

08-16-2023, 07:38 PM

Interesting. How did you decide on those percentages?

I took the number of temple holding levels in Danigau and divided them by 29 (which is the sum of all of its province levels.) For Sera, it was 10/29 (34.4%, rounded down). For Kriesha, it was 5/29 (17.2%, rounded down). 34% + 17% = 51% who attend one of the two temples with true devotion. That leaves 49% of the population is not being particularly devoted to either goddess.

Thus, the facts we are given is:
34% of the total population are true members of Sera's faith
17% of the total population are true members of Karisha's secret cult
49% of the total population aren't particularly religious.

If we accept the statement that "90% of the total population attends services at Sera's temples" is true, then we must also accept that 10% don't attend services. Which means the 90% has to include everyone outside of that 10%.

49% - 10% + 34%+ 17% = 90%

That is all.

Osprey

08-16-2023, 08:12 PM

The Blood Enemies entry for the Gorgon dedicates a whole paragraph to the Hand of Azrai:

"The Hand of Azrai is one of the most powerful and influential people within the Gorgon's Crown, and she is the only figure in power who is not blooded. She is a mysterious woman from the lands of the far east, and her reasons for arriving and staying in the Crown are unknown. Some speculate that she is in love with the Gorgon, though her reticence and the Gorgon's impassive glare tell nothing that might pass between them. While she is unblooded, she is a high-level priestess to Azrai, Kriesha, and Belinik, and maintains their temples states far better than most other buildings outside of Kal-Saitharak."

She is also mentioned in the regular Gorgon's Crown entry in Ruins of Empire but I don't believe it provides her with any more detail than the above.

OK thanks for the reference! I got a hold of Blood Enemies a while after fleshing out most of my 1st camapign. Seeing as she was listed as a temple Regent in the core setting, I always assumed she was blooded (and no rules for unblooded regents in the core setting).

Based on that, for my 3.5e game I made her a high-level half-fiend/Brecht cleric who was a mistress of the Gorgon as well as high priestess of the Temple of Azrai in Gorgon lands. I imagined her being the result of the Gorgon's breeding project between a succubus and a high-blooded Kiergaard noble captive he used as a breeding stud for a while before exhausting and blood-thefting him. This might have been one of the Kiergaard royal family members, who had a Great bloodline. I also reasoned that merging that with a demon's divine essence might have helped keep the bloodline a little stronger, so she was born with a major bloodline of Azrai. I decided her father was one of the last of the royal family in captivity over a hundred years ago, when Kiergaard was conquered by the Gorgon. With demonic blood and major long-life I figured she'd still be physically equivalent to a human in her late 20s + succubus hot! :D

There's definitely some dark Gorgon stuff in there, but I really want him to be a twisted figure, whose moments of seeming civility, decency, or honor are strongly contrasted by bouts of sadistic tortures of his enemies, interspersed with long hours spent planning and enacting his far-reaching, patient schemes.

masterdaorin

08-19-2023, 11:07 PM

I like the narrative but I'm not sure it really works. First of all, there is no sign that Erik is a part of the Khinasi pantheon. He's worshipped as Irakihan in Vosgaard, Aeric in Anuire and Brechtur, and Erik in Rjuvik. I don't think he's even mentioned once in the cities of the Sun supplement. He has no temples in Khinasi, and Avani's entry in the BoP doesn't even bother to list him as an ally.

There is a druid to Erik in Suiriene. I'm sure there are others out there, unmentioned. For example, how else to explain the Itave?

And, as for the temple of Avanalae in Anuire, it is described as being a splinter group from the Ariyan Temple of Avani. Yes, the Anuireanized her name but they still follow the Ariyan Temples lead in matters of dogma.. and I'm sure the Ariyan Temple doesn't embrace any such notion of Avani/Avanalae being under Haelyn's protection.

No, but the Anuireans do.

You don't get traction in a different culture without tailoring your dogma to your target audience.

That's religious doctrine 101. :D

The LPA isn't popular because Anuireans are suddenly starting to think like Khinasi...

Given the fact that there are eight different sects who worship Haelyn, all with differing doctrines, I'm not sure any one blanket statement regarding how Anuireans view Haelyn is going to be wholly accurate. People in Diemed see Haelyn as being a stickler for the law and society's rules and maintaining social order. Of all the different sects, only the Western Imperial Temple seems to be tolerant of other religions. The Northern Imperial Temple don't even allow the worship of other gods within their borders.

The WIT is tolerant because they are trying to keep to a middle ground and appeal to everyone who may be interested in seeing their POV regarding Haelyn. Naturally, appearing like you are everyone's friend makes no one trust you... :)

Regardless, Haelyn is the Patron of the Anuireans. That hasn't changed... He's the Leader. That filters down in into all their culture and way of thinking, and that will take centuries to change...

Religious strife in Cerilia is just beginning anew...

masterdaorin

08-19-2023, 11:40 PM

Interestingly, in searching for examples yesterday, i came across the case of Danigau. There, the text specifies that 90% of the population attend services of Sera'a Perfekt Symmetry, and yet the holding count is only at 55% (10 of 18 levels in which they have presence). Is it erroneous, or is there an alternative meaning to holdings? It is noteworthy either way.

Or, one could look at it as: that the people faithfully attend church, but not as many are actually faithful in their worship as they should be?

Hmmm...

I like Magnus' interpretation...

(But you're most likely correct - it's a editing error).

Speaking of which, what about the Gorgon and his temple, the Hand of Azrai? According to the text in Ruins of Empire, the Gorgon keeps contact with the two new gods of evil, Belinik and Kriesha. Further, Blood Enemies describes the Hand of Azrai as a priestess of Azrai, Kriesha and Belinik. So it appears the church of the Gorgon is another 2-deity faith.

I've always interpretated that as she is venerating all those who once belonged to the One True God... :D Kriesha and Belinik are "lieutenants" of Azrai... now, where does she get her power, I wonder...?

masterdaorin

08-19-2023, 11:48 PM

That would elevate him to a demigod AND bring this messaging thread back to the original topic of divine ascension. (OMG, how'd that happen??)

Thanks!

I liked all of those examples, btw. Very helpful!

In keeping with the original topic, however, I would say that the Raven will find that he needs a further boost - something that has been missing... otherwise, the Gorgon would have done it already... (remember the poster-boy?).

Unless, you are of the opinion that simple bloodtheft and a hard number threshold is all that is needed...?

Magnus Argent

08-21-2023, 04:46 AM

There is a druid to Erik in Suiriene. I'm sure there are others out there, unmentioned. For example, how else to explain the Itave?

But since we are specifically told that he doesn't even have enough influence to merit a Temple (0) holding, there is nothing to suggest that anyone but that one druid worships Erik. He could easily have been born and trained in the druidic ways in Rheulgard (the only realm I'm aware of that has both temples devoted to Erik as well as a population of Khinasi citizens (although they are only a small % of the population) before travelling to Suirene. Or maybe he happened to be trained by such a druid.

And the Itave have nothing to do with Erik. Just because all of Erik's priests are druids doesn't mean that all druids are priests of Erik. The Temple Regent, Vede, is a druid who venerates spirits of earth and air water. The Itave are an oddity but there is nothing linking them to Erik.

As I said, the fact that I cannot find any Khinasi domain that contains temple holdings devoted to Erik leads me to believe that the Khinasi do not worship him. However, I will also say that I cannot find any material that outright states, "the Khinasi do not worship Erik." If you believe that the lack of such a statement is proof positive that Khinasi worship Erik, who am I to argue? ;)

No, but the Anuireans do.

You don't get traction in a different culture without tailoring your dogma to your target audience.

That's religious doctrine 101. :D

The LPA isn't popular because Anuireans are suddenly starting to think like Khinasi..

They do? I'm fairly well acquainted with the source material but I have to admit I completely missed where it says that. So where, exactly, does it say that?

Too bad Jesus didn't take Religious Doctrine 101. Maybe then he'd have changed his dogma to be more agreeable to the Romans. Just imagine all those Christian priests getting along with the Senators in those roman bath houses.

[*No offense to Christians, Senators, or roman bath houses was intended.]

The WIT is tolerant because they are trying to keep to a middle ground and appeal to everyone who may be interested in seeing their POV regarding Haelyn. Naturally, appearing like you are everyone's friend makes no one trust you... :)

An interesting spin to put on the WIT, for sure!

Magnus Argent

08-21-2023, 05:44 AM

Thanks!

I liked all of those examples, btw. Very helpful!

In keeping with the original topic, however, I would say that the Raven will find that he needs a further boost - something that has been missing... otherwise, the Gorgon would have done it already... (remember the poster-boy?).

You're welcome.

As for my description of the Raven's situation, I was specifically referring only to my version of Cerilia. The scenario of Raven's ascending to demigod status is only possible if he is able to obtain the Eye of the Viper. If joined together with a second artifact (a mysterious dagger in Raven's possession), their combined power would enable Raven to potentially ascend to godhood IF he used them to commit bloodtheft against The Cold Rider. The process by which he would ascend to godhood would be the exact same process by which the new gods ascended to godhood at Deismaar -- by absorbing the divine power of dying gods -- the only difference being that Deismaar was accidental.

There are other paths that lead to divine ascension in my Cerilia. I haven't actually defined them all because I haven't needed to.

Again, this applies only to my version of Cerilia.

Of the many replies you received in response to your original question, it is my personal opinion that Andrew Tall's simple answer was by far and away the best. He said, For me the question is "what works best in the game you want to play", that should then dictate the "back-story" you decide upon for how things are or why they do/don't act in certain ways and what game mechanics you use.

While I don't necessarily agree with the logic he presents in the rest of his post, I believe the simplicity of the above quote to be far superior to any other response (mine most definitely included!).

masterdaorin

08-26-2023, 04:47 PM

But since we are specifically told that he doesn't even have enough influence to merit a Temple (0) holding, there is nothing to suggest that anyone but that one druid worships Erik. He could easily have been born and trained in the druidic ways in Rheulgard (the only realm I'm aware of that has both temples devoted to Erik as well as a population of Khinasi citizens (although they are only a small % of the population) before travelling to Suirene. Or maybe he happened to be trained by such a druid.

I find it harder to believe that this one man is the ONLY druid in all of Khinasi than believing that this druid is the only druid in that culture that is trying to make a difference (enough to actually be worthy mentioning).

And the Itave have nothing to do with Erik. Just because all of Erik's priests are druids doesn't mean that all druids are priests of Erik. The Temple Regent, Vede, is a druid who venerates spirits of earth and air water. The Itave are an oddity but there is nothing linking them to Erik.

True, but they get their divine power from somewhere. Whose to say Erik isn't involved in all that nature magic?

The problem, of course, is those pesky elves...

As I said, the fact that I cannot find any Khinasi domain that contains temple holdings devoted to Erik leads me to believe that the Khinasi do not worship him. However, I will also say that I cannot find any material that outright states, "the Khinasi do not worship Erik." If you believe that the lack of such a statement is proof positive that Khinasi worship Erik, who am I to argue? ;)

So, what? The Khinasi are the only culture that repudiates Erik as being Avani's husband? Who is Leira's father, then?

Why would the Khinasi not worship the husband of their patron deity?

In this pantheistic world, I find it harder to believe that the Khinasi reject this god but accept a different culture's god.

More likely, Erik's message resonates less with the Khinasi because other gods (i.e. Nasri) oversees areas that are of more interest to them, so he gets less "face time".

But that doesn't mean they don't acknowledge his existence, or pay him homage in his areas of expertise... again, this is a pantheistic culture, like the rest of Cerilia...

They do? I'm fairly well acquainted with the source material but I have to admit I completely missed where it says that. So where, exactly, does it say that?

Haelyn is Anuire's patron god. Why would he suddenly disappear from the dialogue just because these worshippers are taken with another god's message? Or, more precisely, how did this founding priest convince these people to take their faith away from Haelyn and place it in another deity? More importantly, why would these people start listening to a foreign regent/culture over one of their own?

Magnus Argent

08-26-2023, 07:14 PM

I find it harder to believe that this one man is the ONLY druid in all of Khinasi than believing that this druid is the only druid in that culture that is trying to make a difference (enough to actually be worthy mentioning).

True, but they get their divine power from somewhere. Whose to say Erik isn't involved in all that nature magic?

The problem, of course, is those pesky elves...

So, what? The Khinasi are the only culture that repudiates Erik as being Avani's husband? Who is Leira's father, then?

Why would the Khinasi not worship the husband of their patron deity?

In this pantheistic world, I find it harder to believe that the Khinasi reject this god but accept a different culture's god.

More likely, Erik's message resonates less with the Khinasi because other gods (i.e. Nasri) oversees areas that are of more interest to them, so he gets less "face time".

But that doesn't mean they don't acknowledge his existence, or pay him homage in his areas of expertise... again, this is a pantheistic culture, like the rest of Cerilia...

Haelyn is Anuire's patron god. Why would he suddenly disappear from the dialogue just because these worshippers are taken with another god's message? Or, more precisely, how did this founding priest convince these people to take their faith away from Haelyn and place it in another deity? More importantly, why would these people start listening to a foreign regent/culture over one of their own?

All of these are great questions. How you choose to answer them is completely up to you.

masterdaorin

08-26-2023, 11:47 PM

And the Itave have nothing to do with Erik. Just because all of Erik's priests are druids doesn't mean that all druids are priests of Erik. The Temple Regent, Vede, is a druid who venerates spirits of earth and air water. The Itave are an oddity but there is nothing linking them to Erik.

That is false. The Core Rulebook categorically states, and I quote:

"Druids: In Cerilia, druids are priests of Erik, the god of nature and the hunt. Druids are especially prominent in the Rjurik lands, but can be found throughout the rest of Cerilia. For more information on druidic powers and abilities, see the description of Erik's faith in Gods of Cerilia, in Part III of this book (referenced from page 12)."

Of course, later editions of the game have changed the way the magic works.

Perhaps druids/rangers should cast arcane spells? Perhaps mebhaighl is "neutral", and becomes arcane or divine energy when channeled through an appropriate conduit...?

I'm of the opinion of expanding upon explanations, however, and not limiting them. Thus, I can get behind the argument that adepts/druids/elves/fey/rangers channel a different type of energy. Should we strike "divine" from their spell descriptions? Or find some other explanation...?

As I said, the fact that I cannot find any Khinasi domain that contains temple holdings devoted to Erik leads me to believe that the Khinasi do not worship him. However, I will also say that I cannot find any material that outright states, "the Khinasi do not worship Erik." If you believe that the lack of such a statement is proof positive that Khinasi worship Erik, who am I to argue? ;)

See above.

Most likely, the Khinasi beseech Erik through their patron goddess, Avani (or Leira), for everything they need from him, thus explaining the lack of (i.e. the necessity) of having temples devoted to Erik.

The reverse is also true in the Rjurik lands, it would seem. The Rjurik worship Vani, but Erik is the All-Father, and beseech the sun goddess through him for everything they need from her.

The same argument would most likely also hold true in Anuirean lands re: Haelyn, and all the other gods throughout Cerilia.

masterdaorin

08-26-2023, 11:54 PM

All of these are great questions. How you choose to answer them is completely up to you.

Of course!

But I come here to seek consensus on issues, however, so would appreciate your input.

Malphas

08-29-2023, 04:09 PM

i have only skimmed through the tread so my apologies if it was already stated.

in 2e dnd spelljammer rules it is stated that spells of 1st and 2nd level can come from personal belief (in planets where the priests deity has no power).
this can partially explain both djapar worship of basaia and serpent shenanigans (initially at least).

i recon serpent started with low tier and was able to expand the scheme due to having true bloodline. i really like the idea of death as a requirement to finish the apotheosis. that can explain why no awnsheghlien was able to achieve it.

serpents existence shows that if you are subtle, no-one shall be the wiser.

in conclusion, 3 things would be necessary for apotheosis:
1 true bloodline
2 established following (god or sainthood)
3 personal death

somewhat related: what happens if a person bloodsilvers a higher tier bloodline?
i know the blood score increase and in case of azrais blood taint chance, but what of grade? (rules in book of regency IIRC cover grade increase through RPs but not elven bloodtheft or even bloodtheft in general)

also. what if serpent (and any copycats) need RP expenditure to upkeep their religion?
thoughts on amount (and nr/lvl of priests above 4th lvl it buys?)

masterdaorin

08-30-2023, 07:20 AM

somewhat related: what happens if a person bloodsilvers a higher tier bloodline?
i know the blood score increase and in case of azrais blood taint chance, but what of grade? (rules in book of regency IIRC cover grade increase throgh RPs but not elven bloodtheft or even bloodtheft in general)

I don't think it would matter. True is the purest strength of divinity. It's unfiltered, so there would be no further grade increase.

also. what if serpent (and any copycats) need RP expenditure to upkeep their religion?
thoughts on amount (and nr/lvl of priests above 4th lvl it buys?)

Now there's an interesting thought.

But, why would the gods need to, when scions don't? Regent's don't need to spend RP to maintain their regency status...

Remember: the only difference between scions and gods is amount of divinity (that is, strength and purity of bloodline)...

masterdaorin

08-30-2023, 07:23 AM

All this talk has me thinking of something else...

Clearly, the new gods exist because they have a portion of a predecessor's divinity within them.

But, other gods existed before them. So, in effect, these older gods also have bloodlines... and, presumably, if they died, an entire new derivation would be created...

Hmmm.... dragons are coming to mind...

Magnus Argent

08-31-2023, 11:05 AM

Of course!

But I come here to seek consensus on issues, however, so would appreciate your input.

Ok.. I lost track, tho.. where are you looking when you're quoting that rule?

As for answering those very good questions, since the source material can support multiple interpretations of that particular topic, I'd say that the only wrong answer is "my answer is the definitive answer."

My version of Cerilia has each culture worshipping a unique pantheon of deities that consist of gods who have been given a name by that culture. In many cases, worship of one or more "foreign" gods has spread into a culture from another region. For example, worship of the Anuirian god of noble battle, Haelyn, has spread into Brechtur via Rhormarch. Prior to his temples being built in Rhormarch, Haelyn wasn't really on the radar of the typical Brecht.

The Khinasi pantheon includes Halaia, Sarma, Nasri, and Leira. They are considered to be the gods of Air, Earth, Water, and Fire, respectively. But Khinasi is a sophisticated culture.. to them, Air isn't just Air. They associate certain characteristics with it. So, when the Khinasi say Halaia is a god of air and sky, they are saying that he is a god of honor, law, and other such lofty ideals. Sarma being a goddess of earth doesn't mean she's a nature god. Khinasi associate earth with prosperity and wealth due to the precious ores, gems, and other valuable commodities buried within it. It is worth nothing that the worship of Anuire's patron deity spread into the Khinasi Island States during the days of Imperial Occupation. The Dragonsea Temple of Haelyn still exists in Suirene today. Only those trained in Religion suspect Haelyn and Halaia are one and the same. Most Khinasi see them as totally different deities. Again, that's just the spin I chose to use for my version of Cerilia. You're welcome to read more about it <<here>> (https://www.worldanvil.com/w/aebrynis-magnus-argent/a/religion-article) if you like.

Malphas

09-01-2023, 03:07 PM

I don't think it would matter. True is the purest strength of Now there's an interesting thought.

But, why would the gods need to, when scions don't? Regent's don't need to spend RP to maintain their regency status...

Remember: the only difference between scions and gods is amount of divinity (that is, strength and purity of bloodline)...

actually pretty simple reason
my statement was abut upkeep of religion in terms of spells

gods grant spells (and powers) to their priests. most scions don't. thus gods (and serpent) need to spend RP on upkeep while bog standard temple regents (priest or otherwise) don't.

the RP should thus be in proportion to the amount of high level priests (as discussed in my previous post level 5 and up). i recon normal gods gain some universal basic RP income (from unorganized religion and divine status) perhaps in proportion of divine grade. they could also gain some RP from total temple holdings of that god in all lands across all temples. those would be bonus RP (to avoid headaches fr game masters and such).

Malphas

09-01-2023, 03:43 PM

I don't think it would matter. True is the purest strength of divinity. It's unfiltered, so there would be no further grade increase.

boy did my post get misunderstood.

lets go by by an extreme example:
sir protagonist the lucky (anduiras tainted 6) in his infinite wisdom grabs his bloodsilver sword of eternal plot and goes to fight the gorgon (azrai true 100+ lets say 120). in a spectacular turn of events he kills gorgon and using a tighmaevril weapon gets 60 pts of bloodline.
now as per book of regency p24 sir protagonist gets 6/6-1 d6 to roll vs gorgons 120/6 d8.
it is mathematically impossible to win for sir protagonist thus his bloodline changes to azrai.
sir protagonist the lucky (azrai tainted 66). now slaying the gorgon is an epic feat and thus a generous (or intelligent) gm may decide that it qualify as the great deed needed for improving the bloodline strength. thus sir protagonist the lucky is now (azrai minor 66). considering he just ate a true bloodline (and changed derivation) this feels wrong.

now imagine he went drunk on success and went on to fight and kill the manslayer (azrai true 95). sword of eternal plot working as intended would dutifully transfer 47 blood to sir protagonist, but protagonist having already increased his bloodline strength in his lifetime is barred from doing it again (book of regency p17).
thus we have sir protagonist the lucky (azrai minor 113) who consumed 2 true bloodlines.

Magnus Argent

09-01-2023, 03:58 PM

actually pretty simple reason
my statement was abut upkeep of religion in terms of spells

gods grant spells (and powers) to their priests. most scions don't. thus gods (and serpent) need to spend RP on upkeep while bog standard temple regents (priest or otherwise) don't.

the RP should thus be in proportion to the amount of high level priests (as discussed in my previous post level 5 and up). i recon normal gods gain some universal basic RP income (from unorganized religion and divine status) perhaps in proportion of divine grade. they could also gain some RP from total temple holdings of that god in all lands across all temples. those would be bonus RP (to avoid headaches fr game masters and such).
Bards sing, right? It's what they do. It's a component baked into the very concept of what a bard is. To me, gods granting spells to their priests works the same way. It's what they do. None of the gods are presented as having or needing RP in particular.

Personally, I embrace the notion that the relative strengths of the gods of Cerilia are tied to the number of temple holdings they have devoted to them. I'm currently designing a campaign designed around temple regents and by tying the gods relative power to temple holdings, it gives me an impartial way of determining who is winning a divine conflict. It'll also give players tangible, attainable goals with and gives meaning to the decisions they make. In my campaign, rulers actions can affect nations but the actions of High Priests can affect the heavens.

There are others who absolutely disagree with the notion of a god's power being tied to temple holdings. Neither interpretation actually conflicts with canon.. It's a concept I'm using because it works best with my campaign.

If you decide requiring some sort of expenditure of godly power is required to cast spells makes your campaign work better, go for it. But if you're just looking to for help in understanding how the setting was originally designed.. there's nothing in the source material that I know of that states that the Serpent is required to pay RP upkeep for spells granted to his followers and none of the gods are presented as gaining or spending RP to the best of my knowledge.

Magnus Argent

09-01-2023, 04:32 PM

boy did my post get misunderstood.

lets go by by an extreme example:
sir protagonist the lucky (anduiras tainted 6) in his infinite wisdom grabs his bloodsilver sword of eternal plot and goes to fight the gorgon (azrai true 100+ lets say 120). in a spectacular turn of events he kills gorgon and using a tighmaevril weapon gets 60 pts of bloodline.
now as per book of regency p24 sir protagonist gets 6/6-1 d6 to roll vs gorgons 120/6 d8.
it is mathematically impossible to win for sir protagonist thus his bloodline changes to azrai.
sir protagonist the lucky (azrai tainted 66). now slaying the gorgon is an epic feat and thus a generous (or intelligent) gm may decide that it qualify as the great deed needed for improving the bloodline strength. thus sir protagonist the lucky is now (azrai minor 66). considering he just ate a true bloodline (and changed derivation) this feels wrong.

now imagine he went drunk on success and went on to fight and kill the manslayer (azrai true 95). sword of eternal plot working as intended would dutifully transfer 47 blood to sir protagonist, but protagonist having already increased his bloodline strength in his lifetime is barred from doing it again (book of regency p17).
thus we have sir protagonist the lucky (azrai minor 113) who consumed 2 true bloodlines.

As I understand it, Bloodline Strength is an adjective that has no value in and of itself in terms of game mechanics. Tainted Bloodlines begin with a bloodline score between 4-16. Minor Bloodlines range from 5-30.. Major, 8-48. Great 8-64. I don't think there's a difference between 4 scions who have a Tainted, Minor, Major, and Great bloodline, each with a Bloodline Score of 10. In terms of game mechanics, there's absolutely no difference, is there?

And even in terms of the game world and how NPCs treat them.. they'd probably be given equal amounts of respect. Why? Great bloodlines range from 8-64. Having a score of 10 means the scion comes from a bloodline that simply is not living up to its potential.

Fizz

09-02-2023, 02:19 AM

As I understand it, Bloodline Strength is an adjective that has no value in and of itself in terms of game mechanics. Tainted Bloodlines begin with a bloodline score between 4-16. Minor Bloodlines range from 5-30.. Major, 8-48. Great 8-64. I don't think there's a difference between 4 scions who have a Tainted, Minor, Major, and Great bloodline, each with a Bloodline Score of 10. In terms of game mechanics, there's absolutely no difference, is there?

The bloodline strength does play a role, because every blood ability requires a particular strength.

To continue your example, the four scions may all have a Score of 10, but the one with a Great bloodline could have the blood abilitiy Invulnerability. The other three lesser bloodlines could not have it.

And many abilities have stronger effects for higher levels of bloodline strength (such as Animal Affinity).

-Fizz

Osprey

09-02-2023, 03:22 AM

The bloodline strength does play a role, because every blood ability requires a particular strength.

To continue your example, the four scions may all have a Score of 10, but the one with a Great bloodline could have the blood abilitiy Invulnerability. The other three lesser bloodlines could not have it.

And many abilities have stronger effects for higher levels of bloodline strength (such as Animal Affinity).

-Fizz
The strength of a blood ability is not related to the strength of the scion's bloodline though. In the 2e rulebook a minor scion can have Major powers, and a major scion can have Great powers.
Through advancing the blood, even a tainted scion could have Great powers but still be tainted.

The Book of Regency talks about increasing one's bloodline strength (once in a lifetime at most! and no one is allowed to acquire a True bloodline if they are not born with it; according to the BoR True bloodlines are only in those who were present at Deismaar though this does not explain the Roele emperors keeping true bloodlines).
In that section, the book helps flesh out the concept that bloodline strength is really about the public perception of the bloodline - its fame and renown. It's the historic greatness of a scion's divine heritage.
But it really has no mechanical effect on blood abilities or bloodline score in 2e.

Magnus Argent

09-02-2023, 06:43 AM

The Book of Regency talks about increasing one's bloodline strength (once in a lifetime at most! and no one is allowed to acquire a True bloodline if they are not born with it; according to the BoR True bloodlines are only in those who were present at Deismaar though this does not explain the Roele emperors keeping true bloodlines).

Roele was a Champion at Deismaar and walked away with a True bloodline. Following the normal rules children of scions, the sons and daughters of Roele would have been born with True bloodline, as well. As would their children .. and so on and so on.

The bloodline loses its luster only if their spouse has a higher bloodline score. IIRC, when two scions have children, the kids' bloodline scores will be the the average of their parents' scores and they will inherit the bloodline derivation and strength of the parent with the greater bloodline score.

Doyle

09-02-2023, 08:19 AM

I think this presents a problem. If there is not "selective breeding", then the True bloodlines would eventually vanish.
If a True bloodline (40) has a child with an unblooded, then the child would retain the True bloodline at a score of 20. If that child grows up and has a child with a minor bloodline person with a score of 22, then resulting child - grandchild of the 'True' would be a minor bloodline with a score of 21.
The bloodline score can bounce up a down between generations but without the 'once in a lifetime event' each generation the bloodline will only go down.

Fizz

09-02-2023, 02:38 PM

The strength of a blood ability is not related to the strength of the scion's bloodline though. In the 2e rulebook a minor scion can have Major powers, and a major scion can have Great powers.
Through advancing the blood, even a tainted scion could have Great powers but still be tainted.

Hmmm.... my understanding is that to have a Great ability, one must have a Great bloodline. If one has a Minor bloodline, you can't have a Major or Great power. Why would they use the exact same nomenclature (minor, major, great) as the blood powers themselves, if they didn't Strength to limit which powers were available?

The 2nd Ed Core Rulebook does refer to "some of the abilities listed in Table 13 are major or great abilities only[i]", which i take to mean requires that level of bloodline strength.

Further, this is supported in [i]BoR. Page 17, Blood Ability Tables says "...first ascertain the character's bloodline derivation and strength... in the Birthright Rulebook. Then simply roll on the correct table to determine which blood abilities the character possesses". And when you look at Tables 1-7, Great / Major abilities are not under the Minor bloodlines tables. For example, if a character has a Minor Anduiras bloodline, they roll on Table 1A; all those abilities are Minor. They could not have Elemental Control (a Great ability) or Divine Wrath (a Major ability).

So, yes, i maintain that bloodline Strength does have a mechanical effect. It determines which blood abilities, and the power's strength, one can have.

-Fizz

Fizz

09-02-2023, 02:41 PM

The Book of Regency talks about increasing one's bloodline strength (once in a lifetime at most! and no one is allowed to acquire a True bloodline if they are not born with it; according to the BoR True bloodlines are only in those who were present at Deismaar though this does not explain the Roele emperors keeping true bloodlines).

Not just BoR, but the Core Rulebook mentions that about True bloodlines as well.

Well, a child gains the bloodline strength of the parent with the higher score. Starting with the first Roele, who probably had a very high score, being so close to the gods at Deismaar, that line has probably dominated over the centuries, keeping the children True. And the Roele family probably married into strong lines as well, so the average score of the children remained high. Plus they may have raised their scores as they reign, if only through rulership... So i could envision the True strength holding out all the way to Michael.

-Fizz

Osprey

09-02-2023, 04:49 PM

Hmmm.... my understanding is that to have a Great ability, one must have a Great bloodline. If one has a Minor bloodline, you can't have a Major or Great power. Why would they use the exact same nomenclature (minor, major, great) as the blood powers themselves, if they didn't Strength to limit which powers were available?

Why indeed? Lack of creative language use? I certainly would agree that using different terms for the bloodline ability groups would have been helpful.

There's no doubt this overlap has confused many readers. But further careful reading shows there is no actual connection between bloodline ability power levels and bloodline strength.

Also worth noting there are no Tainted or True powers either, so the parallels between blood ability levels and bloodline strength are incomplete.

The 2nd Ed Core Rulebook does refer to "some of the abilities listed in Table 13 are major or great abilities only[i]", which i take to mean requires that level of bloodline strength.

This means some of the more powerful blood abilities like Regeneration do not exist as minor-level abilities at all. No mention of bloodline strength here, just bloodline ability levels.

Further, this is supported in [i]BoR. Page 17, Blood Ability Tables says "...first ascertain the character's bloodline derivation and strength... in the Birthright Rulebook. Then simply roll on the correct table to determine which blood abilities the character possesses". And when you look at Tables 1-7, Great / Major abilities are not under the Minor bloodlines tables. For example, if a character has a Minor Anduiras bloodline, they roll on Table 1A; all those abilities are Minor. They could not have Elemental Control (a Great ability) or Divine Wrath (a Major ability).

So, yes, i maintain that bloodline Strength does have a mechanical effect. It determines which blood abilities, and the power's strength, one can have.

-Fizz

The Book of Regency refers back to the core rules for determining bloodline abilities based on one's Score. The core rules pretty clearly do not limit bloodline abilities based on one's strength - it is random based on bloodline score alone.

The BoR bloodline ability tables were just made to make finding a blood ability by its derivation and strength easier, as well as including the new blood abilities in there. There will be a lot less re-rolling on the BoR tables to get an appropriate blood ability than there was in the Core Rulebook.
But the system for determining which abilities a scion has still goes back to the core rulebook - nothing changed there. If your minor bloodline character is supposed to get a major ability of Anduiras, then they can go straight to that table in BoR and roll. Nothing contradicts that.

BoR page 16 also says very specifically:

Bloodlines are measured by strength (a word: tainted, minor, major, great , or true) and score (a number). The score is a rules mechanic used by players; the strength is largely a role-playing term for reputation used by characters.

This doesn't contradict the core rules on bloodlines, it emphasizes that Bloodline Strength is about reputation not anything mechanical like how potent one's powers are.

Fizz, I understand your logic but I do not see how it agrees with the RAW. It seems like you are extrapolating based on what you think it should be rather than what is actually written. There's nothing I can find in the original rules - ever - that says one must have a bloodline strength equal to or greater than one's bloodline powers.

That being said: the BRCS revision for 3.0/3.5e did change the bloodline rules to match your version of things, so you are clearly not the only one who thinks the rules should have been changed (they changed quite a lot of the bloodline rules though, for better or worse). I think many DMs and players have always wanted bloodline strength to have more mechanical meaning, so that greater bloodlines are almost always more powerful than lesser ones. But in the 2e original, the bloodline score was the thing that mattered for powers, and nothing else. Bloodline strength gave you a higher starting score (and thus a greater chance for more powers and more potent powers), more public renown if your bloodline was known, and better henchmen as a result of the better reputation.

FWIW I have used the BRCS version of bloodlines for my own campaigns. I only went back and learned the differences with the 2e system when I played a couple of short-lived 2e domain games online. That's when I realized there was no direct correlation between strength and score other than one's starting score range.

Osprey

09-02-2023, 04:52 PM

Not just BoR, but the Core Rulebook mentions that about True bloodlines as well.

Well, a child gains the bloodline strength of the parent with the higher score. Starting with the first Roele, who probably had a very high score, being so close to the gods at Deismaar, that line has probably dominated over the centuries, keeping the children True. And the Roele family probably married into strong lines as well, so the average score of the children remained high. Plus they may have raised their scores as they reign, if only through rulership... So i could envision the True strength holding out all the way to Michael.
-Fizz

Mostly I just noticed the discrepancy between the BoR saying scions with True bloodlines were present at Deismaar and the Roele bloodline preserving the True bloodline through generations of scions who were not at Deismaar. Small editing error, really.

Fizz

09-02-2023, 06:53 PM

Also worth noting there are no Tainted or True powers either, so the parallels between blood ability levels and bloodline strength are incomplete.

I always read Tainted as being just a semblance of a bloodline, so weak / impure that it doesn't justify any actual abilities. True bloodlines i think were ignored because no PC would ever actually have a True bloodline (since only those present at Deismaar, or direct ancestors, could have one). In effect, True lines were meant only for powerful NPC's.

The Book of Regency refers back to the core rules for determining bloodline abilities based on one's Score. The core rules pretty clearly do not limit bloodline abilities based on one's strength - it is random based on bloodline score alone.

No, BoR only refers back to the Core Rulebook for derivation and Strength. Then it says to use Tables 1-7 to determine which blood abilities the character has.

Here is the full text block:
Before using these new blood ability tables, one must first ascertain the character’s bloodline derivation and strength as described under “Bloodlines” in the BIRTHRIGHT Rulebook. Then simply roll on the correct table to determine which blood abilities the character possesses.

But the system for determining which abilities a scion has still goes back to the core rulebook - nothing changed there. If your minor bloodline character is supposed to get a major ability of Anduiras, then they can go straight to that table in BoR and roll. Nothing contradicts that.

Well, BoR does not say to use Table 12 again to determine level of powers. It goes from derivation/Strength straight to the new tables. To me, that suggests the tables in BoR are meant to replace Tables 12 and 13 in the Core Rulebook (for that reason you state- too many re-rolls).

This doesn't contradict the core rules on bloodlines, it emphasizes that Bloodline Strength is about reputation not anything mechanical like how potent one's powers are.

I think the reference to this (page 16 in BoR) is to make clear that numerical scores are not what characters would know- that's only for us players. That is, the Gorgon would never say "My bloodscore is 120".

It also says that Strength is "largely" a role-playing term. "Largely" does not mean "solely", or even "primarily". So it does not explicitely rule out any associated mechanics.

Unfortunately, since BoR was never officially published, we can't be sure if more editing / revisions / clarifications were in the works. Maybe someone should email Stark and find out his intent (assuming he remembers... heh). :)

Fizz, I understand your logic

Well that's something at least... lol.

That being said: the BRCS revision for 3.0/3.5e did change the bloodline rules to match your version of things, so you are clearly not the only one who thinks the rules should have been changed (they changed quite a lot of the bloodline rules though, for better or worse).

That is in part why i favor my interpretation. Bloodlines are not a 3e-ism, so the conversion (as i understood it) tried to emulate the intent of the original bloodline rules.

FWIW I have used the BRCS version of bloodlines for my own campaigns. I only went back and learned the differences with the 2e system when I played a couple of short-lived 2e domain games online. That's when I realized there was no direct correlation between strength and score other than one's starting score range.

Indeed, and i understand your point in that the Core Rulebook does not explicitely say so. The only reference i have that potentially supports mine is the one i quoted (which as you point out has its own ambiguousness). So i agree there is nothing explicit.

Like i said, let's get Mr Stark on the phone. :)

-Fizz

Fizz

09-02-2023, 07:28 PM

Mostly I just noticed the discrepancy between the BoR saying scions with True bloodlines were present at Deismaar and the Roele bloodline preserving the True bloodline through generations of scions who were not at Deismaar. Small editing error, really.

I'm not sure what discrepancy or editing error you mean. The Core Rulebook says True links originate from the champions of Deismaar, and said champion must either be alive or have passed the line to his direct descendents. Isn't this all consistent?

-Fizz

Fizz

09-02-2023, 07:44 PM

Fizz, I understand your logic but I do not see how it agrees with the RAW. It seems like you are extrapolating based on what you think it should be rather than what is actually written. There's nothing I can find in the original rules - ever - that says one must have a bloodline strength equal to or greater than one's bloodline powers.

Well, i decided see if i could find any precedent one way or the other. That is- an established character that has a blood ability whose power is ranked "higher" than their bloodline strength. In other words, I wanted to find someone who has a Great ability even if they have have a Major or Minor bloodline.

And the very first one i found... Grimm Graybeard. Atlas of Cerilia says he has a Major bloodline, but has the blood ability of Courage (Great). One page away, Nadia Vasily has Travel (Great) even though she has a Major bloodline. And another page away, Shaemes Lavalier has Animal Affinity (Major) though his bloodline is Minor.

So it would appear your interpration is supported by actual characters. I must have noticed this in the past, as i've used all those characters, but forgotten it somewhere along the way.

Bugger. :)

-Fizz

Malphas

09-02-2023, 10:41 PM

Magnus Argent

09-03-2023, 01:15 AM

yea that's not fully true. some abilities have a minimum requirement. the one that comes to mind without looking through lists (mainly due to frustration of rolling it for illegible candidates) is major resistance (magic). despite naming conventons this ability is only available in minor form for scions of great bloodline. a tad confusing and somewhat annoying.

of somewhat lesser note bloodline strength also has some effect on lieutenant acquisition but that is of lesser consern.

as far as book of regency is concerned i read (and quoted in my example) what they wrote about the issue. didn't fully answer my questions so i thought to see what the general idea was.

Major Resistance (Magic) works the same regardless of a scion's bloodline strength. What gives you the impression otherwise?

Malphas

09-03-2023, 02:43 AM

Major Resistance (Magic) works the same regardless of a scion's bloodline strength. What gives you the impression otherwise?

quote verbatim blood enemies p127
major resistance
<...>
Magic:<...>
Note: this ability is only accessible to those of great bloodline rank or higher, and can be accessed only at minor rank (25% magic resistance)
<...>

seems difficult to misinterpret this one TBH.

Magnus Argent

09-03-2023, 06:29 PM

quote verbatim blood enemies p127
major resistance
<...>
Magic:<...>
Note: this ability is only accessible to those of great bloodline rank or higher, and can be accessed only at minor rank (25% magic resistance)
<...>

seems difficult to misinterpret this one TBH.

I never judge people for misinterpreting the rules. Nobody is perfect.

In this case, I don't think you misinterpreted anything. But the book of Regency presents revised rules that supersede this requirement.

Other forms of Major Resistance can be gained as a minor bloodline ability, a major bloodline ability, or a great bloodline ability. They give 25%, 50% and 75% protection as minor, major, and great abilities, respectively. Major Resistance (Magic), however, can only be accessed as a great bloodline ability. Also, unlike the other forms of Major Resistance, even as a great bloodline ability, it only grants 25% Magic Resistance.

The text also states that this is a rare ability and likely found in no more than one family or bloodline. It was clearly the intent to make MR available only on a very limited basis.

At first glance, 25% resistance as a great bloodline ability sounds like a bad deal when compared to the 75% resistance offered by other forms of the bloodline ability. I don't know if you've played AD&D 2nd edition, however.. in 2E, Magic Resistance was a big deal. To put it into perspective, Titania, Queen of the Seelie Faeries of the Shadow World and last of the the mythical race of Sie has a magic resistance of 50%. An Old Cerilian Dragon has a Magic Resistance of 35%. The Spider, who has Invulnerability, Regeneration, Major Regeneration (all ranked as Great) has a Magic Resistance of 15%. Liches, arguably one of the most powerful forms of undead, has no MR whatsoever. Robes of the Archmagi are powerful magical items that reduce opponents MR by 20% and confer 5% MR on its wearer.

Given how rare and powerful this special defense is, I understand the intent when it was described as only Great and True bloodlines could possess it. As a DM, I might even be inclined to keep the restriction, despite what the Book of Regency says. More likely, I'd bring it in line with other bloodline abilities. I'd make it available as a minor ability (5% MR), major (10% MR), and great (15% MR). but that's just my personal opinion.

Malphas

09-03-2023, 06:49 PM

I never judge people for misinterpreting the rules. Nobody is perfect.

In this case, I don't think you misinterpreted anything. But the book of Regency presents revised rules that supersede this requirement.

Other forms of Major Resistance can be gained as a minor bloodline ability, a major bloodline ability, or a great bloodline ability. They give 25%, 50% and 75% protection as minor, major, and great abilities, respectively. Major Resistance (Magic), however, can only be accessed as a great bloodline ability. Also, unlike the other forms of Major Resistance, even as a great bloodline ability, it only grants 25% Magic Resistance.

The text also states that this is a rare ability and likely found in no more than one family or bloodline. It was clearly the intent to make MR available only on a very limited basis.

god i wish they bought a thesaurus back then.
could you perchance check approximately where in the book of regency is this stated?
it would honestly be quite helpful (i had to create a whole extended family of minor anduiras blooded nobles recently. fun fact: did you know that the only major resistance anduiras gives is magic? despite it being rolled at all levels. I gained a new hatred of the bloodline from this exercise)
extra credit: vorynn has a similar issue. i just rolled 3 randoms to have his blood (2 minor both randomly gaining 23 and one major at 24. i think i'll make the 2 into twins and the one into the youngest who was born after the father (or mother) completed grade increase) hence my increased interest in this stuff

also i completely agree with magic res being more powerful. I'm just unclear on how best to address it best.

Magnus Argent

09-04-2023, 03:05 AM

god i wish they bought a thesaurus back then.
could you perchance check approximately where in the book of regency is this stated?
it would honestly be quite helpful (i had to create a whole extended family of minor anduiras blooded nobles recently. fun fact: did you know that the only major resistance anduiras gives is magic? despite it being rolled at all levels. I gained a new hatred of the bloodline from this exercise)
extra credit: vorynn has a similar issue. i just rolled 3 randoms to have his blood (2 minor both randomly gaining 23 and one major at 24. i think i'll make the 2 into twins and the one into the youngest who was born after the father (or mother) completed grade increase) hence my increased interest in this stuff

also i completely agree with magic res being more powerful. I'm just unclear on how best to address it best.

Oh, sorry.. I normally cite the source material when I refer to it directly.. I didn't in this case because Osprey basically quoted it verbatim. I'm looking at age 16 of the Book of Regency. It tells us that the Blood of Kings chapter presents "new and revised" information and goes on to describe the difference between Bloodline Strength ("a word") and Bloodline Score ("a number"). It goes on to say that the game mechanics are tied to the score while the strength is largely used for roleplaying purposes.

I wish I could answer how best to handle it.. all I can do is reiterate that, personally, I'd make it available in minor, major, and great forms with a 5% Magic Resistance as a minor ability, 10% as a major ability, and 15% as a great ability).

Of course, if you're playing 5th Edition D&D, converting it is simple: Magic Resistance % becomes Advantage on Saving Throws against spells. Easy peasy.

Malphas

09-04-2023, 05:05 AM

Oh, sorry.. I normally cite the source material when I refer to it directly.. I didn't in this case because Osprey basically quoted it verbatim. I'm looking at age 16 of the Book of Regency. It tells us that the Blood of Kings chapter presents "new and revised" information and goes on to describe the difference between Bloodline Strength ("a word") and Bloodline Score ("a number"). It goes on to say that the game mechanics are tied to the score while the strength is largely used for roleplaying purposes.

I wish I could answer how best to handle it.. all I can do is reiterate that, personally, I'd make it available in minor, major, and great forms with a 5% Magic Resistance as a minor ability, 10% as a major ability, and 15% as a great ability).

Of course, if you're playing 5th Edition D&D, converting it is simple: Magic Resistance % becomes Advantage on Saving Throws against spells. Easy peasy.

honesty every bit helps, so thanks for the idea. 2nd edition was quite convoluted but birthright books especially so. constant uncertainties, confusing rule formats, problematic nomenclature and a mass of contradictions. I understand that some of that was due to changing/updated rules but this is a bit to much.

then again, the less said about 5th edition the better.

Osprey

09-04-2023, 05:21 AM

god i wish they bought a thesaurus back then.
could you perchance check approximately where in the book of regency is this stated?
it would honestly be quite helpful (i had to create a whole extended family of minor anduiras blooded nobles recently. fun fact: did you know that the only major resistance anduiras gives is magic? despite it being rolled at all levels. I gained a new hatred of the bloodline from this exercise)
extra credit: vorynn has a similar issue. i just rolled 3 randoms to have his blood (2 minor both randomly gaining 23 and one major at 24. i think i'll make the 2 into twins and the one into the youngest who was born after the father (or mother) completed grade increase) hence my increased interest in this stuff

also i completely agree with magic res being more powerful. I'm just unclear on how best to address it best.

Use the Book of Regency pages 18-21 for rolling 2e bloodline abilities by derivation and strength, it will help immensely in reducing useless dice rolls.

For later editions of D&D, the BRCS Chapter 2 has some pretty good revised random tables by derivation...if I do say so myself. :P
(I was the one who revised them from the 3.0 BRCS for better results, with much rarer occurrences of abilities like Long Life. I did find one error on the Azrai table the other day, though. Oops!)

Sorontar

09-04-2023, 11:12 AM

For later editions of D&D, the BRCS Chapter 2 has some pretty good revised random tables by derivation...if I do say so myself. :P
(I was the one who revised them from the 3.0 BRCS for better results, with much rarer occurrences of abilities like Long Life. I did find one error on the Azrai table the other day, though. Oops!)

Is it listed in the Errata wiki page? http://www.birthright.net/forums/showwiki.php?title=BRCS:Errata#Errata_in_Chapter_T wo
If not, tell us what it is and I will add it.

Sorontar

Osprey

09-04-2023, 04:29 PM

Is it listed in the Errata wiki page? http://www.birthright.net/forums/showwiki.php?title=BRCS:Errata#Errata_in_Chapter_T wo
If not, tell us what it is and I will add it.

Sorontar

Yeah I tried to edit the errata but I guess I don't have permission for that page.
Here's what I tried to add:

Table 2-4b Minor Resistance (Azrai) should occur on a roll of 92-00, not 99-00.

Malphas

09-04-2023, 08:54 PM

Use the Book of Regency pages 18-21 for rolling 2e bloodline abilities by derivation and strength, it will help immensely in reducing useless dice rolls.

i did. that still got me in this mess.

but yea book of regency was great just for the tables alone.i only wish they were clearer on a few points.

masterdaorin

09-05-2023, 02:54 AM

Roele was a Champion at Deismaar and walked away with a True bloodline. Following the normal rules children of scions, the sons and daughters of Roele would have been born with True bloodline, as well. As would their children .. and so on and so on.

The bloodline loses its luster only if their spouse has a higher bloodline score. IIRC, when two scions have children, the kids' bloodline scores will be the the average of their parents' scores and they will inherit the bloodline derivation and strength of the parent with the greater bloodline score.

That is not true, according to a strict reading of the 2e rules.

The child gains the derivation of the parent with the stronger bloodline, but the strength is diluted by the weaker bloodline.

That is to say, a True scion can only every produce True offspring with another True scion - otherwise, the bloodline strength is diluted.

Hence, the reference as to why the "strict" breeding programs came into effect. We can conclude that Roele siblings married each other... and, that Roele himself married a True scion.

I agree that the 2e rules were vague - they talk as if the strength refers only to the score value, but that is not true, if you read between the lines in the bloodline strength passages at the beginning of the chapter.

Now, it doesn't say by how much the strength downgrades. Presumably, one step... (or an average between the two bloodlines).

Fizz

09-05-2023, 01:20 PM

That is not true, according to a strict reading of the 2e rules.
The child gains the derivation of the parent with the stronger bloodline, but the strength is diluted by the weaker bloodline.
That is to say, a True scion can only every produce True offspring with another True scion - otherwise, the bloodline strength is diluted.
Hence, the reference as to why the "strict" breeding programs came into effect. We can conclude that Roele siblings married each other... and, that Roele himself married a True scion.
I agree that the 2e rules were vague - they talk as if the strength refers only to the score value, but that is not true, if you read between the lines in the bloodline strength passages at the beginning of the chapter.
Now, it doesn't say by how much the strength downgrades. Presumably, one step... (or an average between the two bloodlines).

Actually Magnus is correct. The parent with the highest score determines the strength. Yes, i realize that block on page 29 of the Core Rulebook uses "strength", but it actually means "score". You can tell that it must mean score because it refers to average and gives an example using numbers. Only the score has actual numbers.

This is explicitely clarified in Book of Regency, page 16:
When a scion has a child, that child gains a bloodline with a strength, score, and derivation that reflects those of his parents. If two scions have a child, his bloodline score is determined by averaging the scores of his parents. The child receives the bloodline strength and derivation of the parent with the highest bloodline score.

Thus you do not need both parents to have a True bloodline for the child to have a True bloodline.

-Fizz

masterdaorin

09-05-2023, 06:13 PM

Thus you do not need both parents to have a True bloodline for the child to have a True bloodline.

If that were <ahem> true, then there would still be bloodlines that would be True strength, since the direct descendants of the original hero would maintain their bloodline strength throughout the ages. Think about it.

Doyle is correct - it presents a problem the way it is presented in the BoR. And, that would support Osprey's argument that strength is much more about reputation than actual strength (score).

If that were the case, you would have True/Great bloodlines that are very weak in (score) - which seems counter-intuitive.

Thus, I maintain that by a strict reading of the original rules, while reflecting score but referring to strength, they actually also meant that strength is included vis-a-vie the score value.

There would be not point to selective breeding if the weaker bloodlines did not "dilute" the stronger bloodlines...

Think of bloodline strength this way: how close is the scion's bloodline to the original source?

The confusion arises, of course, in that original holders gained a variety of strengths - which is why score and strength are intrinsically linked... the closer the scion was to their patron dying god, the more pure juice they got...

Greater strength values only maintains the derivation of the bloodline - which makes sense, even according to your analogy of bloodlines being an "OS"... its the template by which the strength/score operate. You can separate derivation from strength (score), but you cannot separate score from strength.

This tangent is directly related to the original topic of this thread... This is why I need to know the threshold value by which one passes into true divinity...

Fizz

09-05-2023, 07:19 PM

If that were <ahem> true, then there would still be bloodlines that would be True strength, since the direct descendants of the original hero would maintain their bloodline strength throughout the ages. Think about it.

Well, the Gorgon's is still True. And the Roele line was True up until Michael's death. Actually, do we know of any other families that had a True line immediately after Deismaar? I don't think there were many. Certainly not everyone who was at Deismaar received a True line.

But conversely, if the line Strength rounds down as you say, then after 1500 years, that's what ~75 generations, all the bloodlines would be tainted by now, unless every generation married into the exact same strength.

Doyle is correct - it presents a problem the way it is presented in the BoR. And, that would support Osprey's argument that strength is much more about reputation than actual strength (score).
If that were the case, you would have True/Great bloodlines that are very weak in (score) - which seems counter-intuitive.

If it's purely about reputation, then i think that actually supports my version. Roele, post Deismaar, would certainly have been considered a great man, yes? I don't think his children would have been considered lessers- The children carry Roele's bloodline, and would have been born with that same high reputation. Saying you were the "son of Roele" would have gravitas regardless of who the mother was.

Regarding the score, regents can improve their score as they rule. So the child could conceivably always catch up to what their higher-scored parent was (or even exceed it) once they take control of the domain and rule it. So the averaging does not always have to be downward trend.

Thus, I maintain that by a strict reading of the original rules, while reflecting score but referring to strength, they actually also meant that strength is included vis-a-vie the score value.

I disagree, and that's why BoR clarified it.

There would be not point to selective breeding if the weaker bloodlines did not "dilute" the stronger bloodlines...

You can still have dilution. When i referred to the child ruling-up his bloodline score earlier, that's obviously easier when you start with a higher score. So choosing stronger lines for your mate would still be desirable. The incentive is still there in either case. A great line marrying a tainted line is diluted due to the score. And the lower score means they likely have fewer blood abilities.

I think dilution would be a bigger problem for scions who are not regents, as they are not actively ruling and lose out on ways of increasing their score.

Personally, I have liked to think of strength and score as two different types of descriptors. Strength is a measure of purity, while score was the measure of quantity. So a True line with a low score doesn't have a lot of divine essence, but it is pure and potent, like a dram of scotch. A tainted line with a high score is like a gallon of light beer. Having both i always found made for a wider variety of more interesting characters.

-Fizz

masterdaorin

09-05-2023, 09:33 PM

Well, the Gorgon's is still True. And the Roele line was True up until Michael's death. Actually, do we know of any other families that had a True line immediately after Deismaar? I don't think there were many. Certainly not everyone who was at Deismaar received a True line.

We don`t know, because we don`t have any examples of such, by a strict reading of the core material.

I agree that there were not many. But I hardly think that Roele was the only one who received a True line. The El-Arrasi and the Danig lines were probably True as well, at one point. Zarayatim, most likely, too. The Avans, the Boeruines, the Diems, the Mhorieds - maybe... maybe not.

And there are plenty of examples of Azrai`s minions getting bloodlines - but centuries of breeding and in-fighting have diluted most goblin and other humanoid bloodlines to almost nothing.

There`s your proof. There have been many True lines - witness the number of True awnsheghlien - but they have been lost, for various reasons. We can safely assume, surely, that a roughly similar number of True bloodlines of other derivations existed, at one point.

But conversely, if the line Strength rounds down as you say, then after 1500 years, that's what ~75 generations, all the bloodlines would be tainted by now, unless every generation married into the exact same strength.

That is exactly what has happened. There are no more True lines left, and very few Great lines left. Families noticed fairly quickly that bloodline strength diluted with other bloodlines, so families have been trying to marry at the same strength OR BETTER ever since. And the Greats have been resisting marrying into lesser lines for the same reason. And the Majors have resisted marrying into the Minors. The Minors are stuck at their own level, and praying that they get lucky, by various means available to them.

If it's purely about reputation, then i think that actually supports my version. Roele, post Deismaar, would certainly have been considered a great man, yes? I don't think his children would have been considered lessers- The children carry Roele's bloodline, and would have been born with that same high reputation. Saying you were the "son of Roele" would have gravitas regardless of who the mother was.

But it`s not about reputation. Reputation follows the strength, because such Great lines inspire that sort of thing.

Would you rather follow Joe the Lesser, who might simply have purple hair - or follow Avan the Stupendous because he can shoot lightning out of his butt and smite his foes with his laser-ray eye powers...

If, suddenly, you son doesn`t display the same sort of powers, people have to start wondering... why shouldn`t I go serve Boeruine the Bold instead, who knows no Fear and can blast his enemies with the terrible roar of a thousand lions... He will be a better leader than this wimpy heir, and will keep us safe with his super powers better than this useless fool can.

You can still have dilution. When i referred to the child ruling-up his bloodline score earlier, that's obviously easier when you start with a higher score. So choosing stronger lines for your mate would still be desirable. The incentive is still there in either case. A great line marrying a tainted line is diluted due to the score. And the lower score means they likely have fewer blood abilities.

See above. Fewer abilities does not for a True bloodline make. What powerful bloodline does not manifest its abilities more evocatively, and more of them, I ask you... give me an example.

You don`t get strength unless you are a paragon of that derivation`s purpose!

Personally, I have liked to think of strength and score as two different types of descriptors. Strength is a measure of purity, while score was the measure of quantity. So a True line with a low score doesn't have a lot of divine essence, but it is pure and potent, like a dram of scotch. A tainted line with a high score is like a gallon of light beer. Having both i always found made for a wider variety of more interesting characters.

A scion who increases his score is going to increase his strength, at some point - it`s inevitable. The reverse is also true - great lines evaporate due to poor cultivation of the bloodline`s raison d`ètre. The two go hand in hand.

As a scion grows in strength, their divine essence manifests itself more powerfully, and more evocatively - scions can`t truly hide their divinity. The reverse is also true. As scions fall from grace, they lose their powers, and their purity, and it fades away...

People notice this, feel this, either way. That`s where the reputation part of strength comes into play. That guy is a SCION - he`s a great man. Or, that guy WAS a SCION, but he was such a loser, he lost (most of) his powers.

So, going by your own analogy, think of strength (score) as merely alcohol, and not as a type of alcohol (which is what derivation is)... you can`t have a high alcohol content without there being a lot of alcohol in the system! Whether it`s been diluted with water a hundred times, or never, affects the total content amount!

At some point, a Minor line turns into a Major line, a Major line turns into a Great line, and a Great line becomes... something more.

You said it, Fizz, not me - divine essence is like an OS! :)

Hence, why I started this thread...

Fizz

09-05-2023, 11:26 PM

I agree that there were not many. But I hardly think that Roele was the only one who received a True line. The El-Arrasi and the Danig lines were probably True as well, at one point. Zarayatim, most likely, too. The Avans, the Boeruines, the Diems, the Mhorieds - maybe... maybe not.

And most of those are still Great lines, so if they started as True, the dilution is very slow. Since the number of blooded people is a small fraction of the population (1% i think?), i don't think there is a sufficient pool for matchups within each Strength. So going outside of your own "Strength" would naturally occur, and under your paradigm would degrade extremely quickly (just a few generations).

And there are plenty of examples of Azrai`s minions getting bloodlines - but centuries of breeding and in-fighting have diluted most goblin and other humanoid bloodlines to almost nothing.
There`s your proof. There have been many True lines - witness the number of True awnsheghlien - but they have been lost, for various reasons. We can safely assume, surely, that a roughly similar number of True bloodlines of other derivations existed, at one point.

Most awnsheghlien do not have a True line, which makes sense as they have been slaying each other over the millennia, trying to improve their own power. By my count there are 6 awnsheghlien with a True line. And being awnsheghlien, close to Azrai, that particular bloodline may behave more aggressively than others.

That is exactly what has happened. There are no more True lines left, and very few Great lines left. Families noticed fairly quickly that bloodline strength diluted with other bloodlines, so families have been trying to marry at the same strength OR BETTER ever since. And the Greats have been resisting marrying into lesser lines for the same reason. And the Majors have resisted marrying into the Minors. The Minors are stuck at their own level, and praying that they get lucky, by various means available to them.

I'm not disagreeing with this. What i'm saying is that this phenomena will occur regardless of whether a child inherits the stronger parent's Strength or if you "average" them down. You said that a child keeping the stronger parent's Strength would remove this incentive, and i think the incentive remains either way.

But it`s not about reputation. Reputation follows the strength, because such Great lines inspire that sort of thing.

Hmmm... i thought you were arguing in favor of that, so maybe i misread what you were saying. I don't disagree that reputation can, in principle, follow Strength. But reputation doesn't always have to be demonstrably earned either. I can see this going either way.

See above. Fewer abilities does not for a True bloodline make. What powerful bloodline does not manifest its abilities more evocatively, and more of them, I ask you... give me an example.

As a rule no, but it's possible. True lines, since they only come from Deismaar, will naturally have high scores- they still reside in the original recipient, so no dilution. Any foolish / incapable characters with True lines would have died out long ago. But there are numerous examples of other lines with scores much lower than you'd expect.

For example, Dherg Wir of Halskapa has a Major line but only a score of 15. Burzak the Great of the Iron Hand Tribes is Major at 22. Y'urre of the Manticore's Domain has a Major line at only 17. These are all values are significantly lower than would be expected for that Strength.

Update: The lowest Great scores i have found belong to Tolzimkur of the Sword Rust Tribes, at 12, and his granddaughter lieutenant, Negra Redfoot, also Great with a miniscule score of 4.

So there are your requested examples; proof that low scores for Great lines is possible.

I think we agree on a lot of this, we just differ as the mechanics and timelines of dilution. I do get your point about True lines (outside of awnsheghlien), but there are other mechanisms, some of which you mentioned, that could account for that. 1500 years of history can be a bumpy ride. Heh.

So, going by your own analogy, think of strength (score) as merely alcohol, and not as a TYPE of alcohol (which is what derivation is)...

I think of Score as the total amount of liquid, and the Strength rating as the alchohol concentration (or ABV if you prefer). Combined you get the total potency of the drink. (And yes, type or flavor would be derivation.)

You said it, Fizz, not me - divine essence is like an OS! :)

If i recall correctly, i was referring to the derivation as the OS, as it controls how the divine energy is manifested. :)

-Fizz