Zero population province increase and rulership?

[Hobilar]

Hello Birthright Folks!

I'm going to be DMing a game for some other old folks like me, and we will be getting back to AD&D 2e and Birthright!

I want to run them in the Giantdowns to start all of us off with small domains to rule.

But I am wondering how (in game mechanics) does a population zero province such as Silverheart or Bjorlangen increase to level one and become ruled by a Regent?

I know I can just hand wave a "random event" to make one of them increase and begin a squabble to gain holdings and influence who might become the provincial regent. I assume this would involve a race to investiture by a newly formed local temple holding priest, but I am not seeing an "in game" way for zero level provinces to become ruled.

Thanks for any help you can give on the subject. Its weird learning this all over again.

Hobilar
:)

[Fizz]

Hello Birthright Folks!
I'm going to be DMing a game for some other old folks like me, and we will be getting back to AD&D 2e and Birthright!


2nd Ed- Yay! Sounds like much fun. I am envious.


But I am wondering how (in game mechanics) does a population zero province such as Silverheart or Bjorlangen increase to level one and become ruled by a Regent?

Hopefully i am understanding your question correctly. If memory serves, a level 0 province or holding can be ruled as any other. All characters can establish a holding of level 0. The 0 just represents minimal population or development. Once they have established the level 0 holdings, it can be ruled to level 1 like any other holding. So no random event or hand-waving is required- you can let the players figure it out on their own.

Hope that makes sense.

-Fizz

[Hobilar]

I think that does make sense, yes.

The glitch I was thinking of was the Investiture Priest Spell. It requires a Holding 1. (page 86 in the original 2e Birthright rulebook) But if the priest can't have a holding 1 because its in a 0 level province, then can a priest there technically cast the spell?

Again, I can hand wave this by allowing it to be cast with a Temple Holding 0 priest in the same province, but I was wondering if I was missing something there too. Perhaps Investiture is only for transfers from an existing ruler, and not for a new ruler of an unclaimed province?

:)

[Fizz]

Perhaps Investiture is only for transfers from an existing ruler, and not for a new ruler of an unclaimed province? :)

All the references i have found refer to Investiture as a process for transferring power. It's a statement of "X is no longer in power. Y is the new leader". But it's not for establishing holdings in a brand new region.

The regent would need to establish the level 0 holding, and rule it up to 1. When the holding is still level 0, it's not considered established enough to warrant investiture. In effect, level 0 means there is little power / influence, so there isn't much to be transferred anyways. "I grant thee... next to nothing..." just seems wrong. Heh. But once the holding is level 1, then it's big enough to justify investiture.

At least, that's how i'm reading it at the moment without diving into the details in the core Rulebook, so i might be missing some details.

-Fizz

[Hobilar]

That all makes sense to me, and I can work with that.

Thanks for your help!

[Fizz]

That all makes sense to me, and I can work with that.
Thanks for your help!

No problem- glad it was helpful. Keep us posted as to how the game goes.

-Fizz

[Witness3]

I think that does make sense, yes.

The glitch I was thinking of was the Investiture Priest Spell. It requires a Holding 1. (page 86 in the original 2e Birthright rulebook) But if the priest can't have a holding 1 because its in a 0 level province, then can a priest there technically cast the spell?
Again, I can hand wave this by allowing it to be cast with a Temple Holding 0 priest in the same province, but I was wondering if I was missing something there too. Perhaps Investiture is only for transfers from an existing ruler, and not for a new ruler of an unclaimed province?
:)


Note that in 2E Investiture is an anction, before being a realm spell.

The Investiture action in 2e (2E core, p. 56) does not imply that the ceremony must be performed inside the target province. That's the point - investiture is an action, before being a realm spell.
All that is required is that a province has a divine tie to a ruler, which all level 0+ provinces do (as opposed to the few unclaimed lands). I think this is why 3E BRCS turned Investiture into a simple, non-spell domain action,Ceremony (http://www.birthright.net/forums/showwiki.php?title=BRCS:Chapter_five_Ruling_a_doma in_Domain_action_descriptions).

[Osprey]

In core BR, if you Invest an occupied level 0 province or holding, it does not require any RP for the Investiture action (success 10+). This would allow new scions without RP to invest frontier areas. There is likewise no RP cost for Ruling a province or holding from level 0 to 1 for the same reason.

This makes level 0's the perfect targets for brand new regents carving out new domains in the wilderness (which in your typical AD&D game would be when characters hit 9th-12th level and can build a freehold).

The Investiture realm spell also does not cost any separate RP from the domain action, just 1 GB.

One other alternative, if the province is uncontrolled, is to use the Create Province domain action, which has similar mechanics as investing a level 0 province but doesn't need a priest and realm spell to accomplish.

[Hobilar]

In core BR, if you Invest an occupied level 0 province or holding, it does not require any RP for the Investiture action (success 10+). This would allow new scions without RP to invest frontier areas. There is likewise no RP cost for Ruling a province or holding from level 0 to 1 for the same reason.

This makes level 0's the perfect targets for brand new regents carving out new domains in the wilderness ....

This is what we are going with.

But they are not there yet! Still some barrow downs to explore, refugees to save/relocate, and raiders/humanoids to run off before they can establish themselves as movers and shakers with the local powers.

We also have a budding Necromancer wannabe. So I'll have to place his Necro-source at the bottom of a Barrowmaze type dungeon. Got to make them work for it the first time. ;)