Questions regarding Divine Bloodlines

[masterdaorin]

Hi all, Happy Holidays!

I was thinking about bloodlines again, since I had an adventure idea regarding awnshegh, and the character trying to fight and (hopefully) ultimately losing his monster abilities... (specifically, the Wolfman).

Anyway, on to the questions. If I could get anyone who wants to add their thoughts on this subject, I'd appreciate the ideas...

1. When the gods died, their essence rained over everything in the vicinity. Those that survived gained bloodlines. Did the survivors gain a mixture of all the bloodlines, or were the survivors "magnetized" (for lack of a better word) to only one kind of derivation?

2. There seems to be precedence for the fact that scions contain a mixture of more than one derivation - scions are born with their parents' bloodlines, bloodtheft can change your derivation to Azrai, etc. However, does the stronger bloodline "vaporize" (for lack of a better word) the weaker derivations? Game balance, it makes sense, but this would seem to imply that a derivation of Azrai could also switch (back) to another derivation (hence, my adventure idea)... yet the setting also implies that Azrai's derivation is more corrupting, and seems to be the "end of the road" for switching bloodlines.

3. What happens to a scion of Azrai's physical changes if they do loose their bloodform blood ability? Logic seems to dictate that these changes would remain, but the rules would have the Gorgon, for instance, suddenly losing his bestiality if (for example) he had successfully committed bloodtheft on Michael Roele and (assuming the Roele bloodline was stronger) becoming "normal" again. (This, btw, was the original spark for my idea - what would have happened if the Gorgon succeeded at that fateful moment? Also gives me thoughts on WHY the Gorgon (and awnshegh in general) actually want to commit bloodtheft all the time... they are trying to be rid of their tainted blood!)

4. Does something else (for example, alignment) factor into derivation changes?

[Fizz]

Interesting questions-

Does the core rulebook say anything about switching derivations through bloodtheft? I don't see anything offhand, suggesting that once you have a particular derivation, you always have it.


1. When the gods died, their essence rained over everything in the vicinity. Those that survived gained bloodlines. Did the survivors gain a mixture of all the bloodlines, or were the survivors "magnetized" (for lack of a better word) to only one kind of derivation?


As i recall, it depended on proximity to the god. So those that were near their god at the time absorbed essentially nothing but that nearby god's essence. However, one could argue that those not near any particular god might have a more proportional mix.

On the other hand, that derivation is always set and can't be changed. When you absorb the essence of another scion, it's the raw energy only, the derivation determines the shape that it takes (ie the blood abilities gained). Deismaar was a unique event after all, so it may have immediately set everyone to particular lines based purely on the initial quantity; as you say, it permanently "magnetized" each person.


2. There seems to be precedence for the fact that scions contain a mixture of more than one derivation - scions are born with their parents' bloodlines, bloodtheft can change your derivation to Azrai, etc. However, does the stronger bloodline "vaporize" (for lack of a better word) the weaker derivations? Game balance, it makes sense, but this would seem to imply that a derivation of Azrai could also switch (back) to another derivation (hence, my adventure idea)... yet the setting also implies that Azrai's derivation is more corrupting, and seems to be the "end of the road" for switching bloodlines.


Offhand i don't know what precedence there is for changing derivation. I'm not saying you're wrong, i just don't know what it is.

Assuming they can change, then yes i see no reason to not potentially repeatedly change back and forth. But if you agree that Azrai's influence is inherently stronger, then maybe it takes more than an even amount of new essence to overcome Azrai's. The question is whether you want to keep track of how much of each derivation exists, and thus whether a tiny addition can tip the scale. That would certainly require more bookkeeping.


3. What happens to a scion of Azrai's physical changes if they do loose their bloodform blood ability? Logic seems to dictate that these changes would remain, but the rules would have the Gorgon, for instance, suddenly losing his bestiality if (for example) he had successfully committed bloodtheft on Michael Roele and (assuming the Roele bloodline was stronger) becoming "normal" again. (This, btw, was the original spark for my idea - what would have happened if the Gorgon succeeded at that fateful moment? Also gives me thoughts on WHY the Gorgon (and awnshegh in general) actually want to commit bloodtheft all the time... they are trying to be rid of their tainted blood!)


I think not, at least not immediately. Bloodform acts over long periods of time, if i recall correctly. Also, isn't there is also a bloodform-like ability for ersheghlien (in Blood Enemies, maybe... can't recall offhand)? So if they manage to change derivation and acquire that ability maybe it starts to undo the Azrai's bloodform to reflect their new (normal) nature.


4. Does something else (for example, alignment) factor into derivation changes?

To my knowledge, derivation only depends on birth. Certainly not alignment, as there are many cases of evil characters with non-Azrai essence, and good characters with Azrai's essence.

-Fizz

[Fizz]

Ah, so here's a way to change derivation: the Bloodline Corruption spell (found in Blood Enemies. It converts any bloodline to that of Azrai's.

So if a spell can convert a derivation to Azrai, then i see no reason another spell can convert it away from Azrai.

Alternatively, if you want to just get rid of the bloodline, there is the Destroy Bloodline spell (reversed form of Restore Bloodline) from Book of Priestcraft.

Anyways... just a couple more ideas that you might find useful.


-Fizz

[Witness3]

Happy new year to you!

Fizz answers already covers most, I will try to speculate a bit around bloodlines.

Bloodline are indeed very static and very selective. There should be a rule somewhere about changing bloodine - that is , if the bloodline you are absorbing gives you more blood points than your current one, you can choose or have to do a blood check (in 2E, roll 1d100, success on 1 - blood) to mantain your bloodline. I'm sorry I can't remember where I had read this, too many books, too many editions (2 are too many).

So, it's something like this: there are certain qualities to bloodlines that are compatible between each other (otherwise you could not absorb blood points from a different bloodline), and there are qualities that are competitive. The former seems to be tied to the powers strength (more blood = more powers), while the latter is tied to your nature (each bloodline = different set of powers).

This points out that, while sticking to a certain bloodline, your actual essence is indeed a mixture from essences from the previous gods.

That being said, Azrai is considered to be much more powerful than any other god alone. Why? Well, it took ALL OF THEM AT ONCE to defeat him. He was alone the god of an empire, his bloodline is much more corruptive, and the most powerful beings in Cerilia all have the blood of Azrai. Makes sense that it is easier to be corrupted by Azrai's bloodline than to get yours back.


3. What happens to a scion of Azrai's physical changes if they do loose their bloodform blood ability? Logic seems to dictate that these changes would remain, but the rules would have the Gorgon, for instance, suddenly losing his bestiality if (for example) he had successfully committed bloodtheft on Michael Roele and (assuming the Roele bloodline was stronger) becoming "normal" again. (This, btw, was the original spark for my idea - what would have happened if the Gorgon succeeded at that fateful moment? Also gives me thoughts on WHY the Gorgon (and awnshegh in general) actually want to commit bloodtheft all the time... they are trying to be rid of their tainted blood!)

I think The gorgon would stay the same in body but die in a few months or so. he's 3000+ old and he's not an elf. He's not meant to live that long.

Here is however, an idea I got from the Blood Enemies (was it?) companion: When does the line between mortal and god ends? By collecting enough divine essence, you may one day have enough power to rival a god, maybe becoming a god yourself. This is how the new gods become so: they were in the first line of battle, and so absorbed so much more divine blood from the old gods. The gorgon never understood why Kriesha and Belinik become gods and he's not. Power is the reason IMHO the Gorgon and other Anwsheghs collect so much blood.


4. Does something else (for example, alignment) factor into derivation changes?

Yes, but it's not D&D-related. Madness. IIIRC all with the blood of Azrai have a raging madness that worsens with each bloodform. Reasoning Awnsheghs are lunatic, prone to anger, while other lose their humanity and become animals (as the Seadrake did). Animals may instead gain some sort of intelligence. This is often used as a plot device (why the gorgon will not erase your brecht domain in a year when you conquered his vassal Kiergard? Because he's mad, thats why!) But may be an alternate goal for "bloodline purification": with power comes a price, maybe they are tired of paying such price.

As for an adventure, there are a lot of spells handling bloodlines, even for bloodline transference or storing (maybe a custom realm spell). Returning to the original form may be a different set of troubles. In a D&D Way, there's spells such as Wish or a permanent Change self, but I would try to think in a BR way just for a change: destroy first, rebuild then.

[Fizz]

I have been looking into this premise of changing bloodline. Note that everything i'm going to write is under 2nd Ed rules.

The Core rulebook does not make any mention of changing a derivation. The rules for bloodtheft involve the change in bloodline score only. Also, it's important to note that bloodline score generally changes slowly. If...

If slayer's score > victim's score then slayer gains 1 bloodline point.
If slayer's score <= victim's score then slayer gains 2 bloodline points.
If victim is last of his line, slayer gains 1 point per 5 of the victim's.
If the slayer uses a tighmaevril weapon in the bloodtheft, the slayer gains one-half the victim's score.

So, short of the last one, it would take a very long time to change one's derivation by collecting energy of a different derivation. And nearly every event would need to target the same derivation. For example, consider a character that starts with a bloonline of Brenna, score of 20. They slay a scion of Reynir, and raises their bloodline to 22 total (20 Brenna, 2 Reynir). Then they fell another scion of Reynir for 24 total (20 Brenna, 4 Reynir), etc etc.

In The Book of Regency, there is a section about becoming an awnshegh. This includes some rules for whether a blooded character becomes overwhelmed by the taint of Azrai, and there are some complicated rules for whether the character's bloodline is forcibly changed to that of Azrai's.

As stated, all the above is for 2nd Ed rules. It'd not suprise me if the 3e conversion did something different. I'll start looking up those next.


-Fizz

[Fizz]

OK, for this post i'm looking at bloodtheft under 3.5E rules, from chapter 2 of the BRCS 3.5 that can be found here on birthright.net .

Under 3.5, the release of divine essence from a slain scion is handled differently. Instead of a simple one-to-one transfer, there is an explosion of energy released that can affect multiple targets. It's like a mini-Deismaar (maybe that's the intent). Further, more essence is released than under 2nd ed rules, and tighmaevril permits one to steal the entire score rather than half.

Now, most pertinent to this discussion is the issue of derivation. It comes down to this:

If recipient scion's score < slain scion's score then there is a chance the derivation can change.

What's notable here is that it's not the amount absorbed that matters. Only whether the slain's score is greater than the recipient's determines whether there is a chance of change. (Whether it actually changes is determined by an opposed roll.) The recipient can only ever gain 1 to their score (short of tighmaevril) per bloodtheft. But you don't have to worry about keeping track of how much of the score is made up of each derivation.

So i guess it depends on which ruleset you want to use. Of course, it's your game and your story so you can easily adapt to your needs. I think there a number of mechanisms that will let you achieve your story goals.


-Fizz

[Witness3]

If recipient scion's score < slain scion's score then there is a chance the derivation can change.

What's notable here is that it's not the amount absorbed that matters. Only whether the slain's score is greater than the recipient's determines whether there is a chance of change. (Whether it actually changes is determined by an opposed roll.) The recipient can only ever gain 1 to their score (short of tighmaevril) per bloodtheft. But you don't have to worry about keeping track of how much of the score is made up of each derivation.


I always was under the impression that it was a matter of absorbed bloodline, not original bloodline. now I see I was wrong. It makes less sense to me that 3/4 blood points may change a 80 BP bloodline.

Fizz, can you point me some references on tighmaevril? I was looking for them some time ago but never managed to find them.

[Fizz]

I always was under the impression that it was a matter of absorbed bloodline, not original bloodline. now I see I was wrong.

I am not sure what you mean. If the absorbed bloodline is stronger than the usurper's, the absorbed bloodline might take over. (Under the 3e conversion rules.)


Fizz, can you point me some references on tighmaevril? I was looking for them some time ago but never managed to find them.

In all the sources i mentioned earlier the effect of tighmaevril on bloodtheft is included. I don't know specifics about tighmaevril you mean otherwise.

-Fizz

[masterdaorin]

Does the core rulebook say anything about switching derivations through bloodtheft? I don't see anything offhand, suggesting that once you have a particular derivation, you always have it.

You mean other than those people who have committed bloodtheft and become awnshegh? No. There are no other instances than that, unfortunately.

However, that, in itself, implies that it can be done, which is why I started having this adventure idea. And then it got me thinking more about the nature of bloodlines, in general...

The source material and setting seems to imply that derivation change can be done... but, the canon material also only gives instances of changing to the derivation of Azrai.

I'm not convinced anymore that this reality in the Birthright world is a one-way street...



As i recall, it depended on proximity to the god. So those that were near their god at the time absorbed essentially nothing but that nearby god's essence. However, one could argue that those not near any particular god might have a more proportional mix.

Well, not only proximity to the god, IIRC, but also by the nature of the person who absorbed it. People who were more like Reynir, for instance, gained the derivation of Reynir. I'm pretty sure there is canon reference to that latter notion, but I'd had to read the material if you want to challenge me on that point.

Of course, that could merely be a function of a "goody-two shoes" being most likely to be in Anduiras' camp, and thus closer to that particular god when he died...



On the other hand, that derivation is always set and can't be changed. When you absorb the essence of another scion, it's the raw energy only, the derivation determines the shape that it takes (ie the blood abilities gained). Deismaar was a unique event after all, so it may have immediately set everyone to particular lines based purely on the initial quantity; as you say, it permanently "magnetized" each person.

Well, this is the crux of my changed beliefs on bloodlines. Is bloodline energy merely "raw energy"? Or does it still contain the essence of the god that it belonged to?

The source material doesn't seem to support that it's "neutral god energy", for lack of a better word.


Assuming they can change, then yes i see no reason to not potentially repeatedly change back and forth. But if you agree that Azrai's influence is inherently stronger, then maybe it takes more than an even amount of new essence to overcome Azrai's. The question is whether you want to keep track of how much of each derivation exists, and thus whether a tiny addition can tip the scale. That would certainly require more bookkeeping.

I'm not of the belief that Azrai's blood is stronger than the other derivations... just more seductive, quicker, easier to change to. And, likewise, it's probably harder to change away from it.



I think not, at least not immediately. Bloodform acts over long periods of time, if i recall correctly. Also, isn't there is also a bloodform-like ability for ersheghlien (in Blood Enemies, maybe... can't recall offhand)? So if they manage to change derivation and acquire that ability maybe it starts to undo the Azrai's bloodform to reflect their new (normal) nature.

I agree. I don't like the idea that, suddenly, your horns drop off your head, for example. There should be a process of elimination.

Bloodtrait is the ershegh blood ability.

I of the belief that, where derivation change occurs, scions should maintain as many of their current blood abilities as possible, according to the rules (i.e. they keep their blood mark, enhanced sense, etc.), but that the blood ability's manifestation changes to the new derivation's effect.



To my knowledge, derivation only depends on birth. Certainly not alignment, as there are many cases of evil characters with non-Azrai essence, and good characters with Azrai's essence.

Well, macro level, yes.

However, I'm not convinced anymore that alignment doesn't (or shouldn't) play a role in this. After all, there is canon precedence that implies that those of Azrai have feelings and urges related to evilness, and those of Anduiras lean more toward being just and noble. Presumably, the other derivations do as well (Reynir scions are more nature-orientated, Masela hear the call of sea, etc.)

[masterdaorin]

Ah, so here's a way to change derivation: the Bloodline Corruption spell (found in Blood Enemies. It converts any bloodline to that of Azrai's.

So if a spell can convert a derivation to Azrai, then i see no reason another spell can convert it away from Azrai.

Alternatively, if you want to just get rid of the bloodline, there is the Destroy Bloodline spell (reversed form of Restore Bloodline) from Book of Priestcraft.
-Fizz

Yes, those work. But I'm of the feeling that spells are "unnatural" ways of changing derivation (for lack of a better word). They force a change.

Bloodtheft... is more "natural" (i.e. that is the original way it happened, at Deismaar).

And, of course, we have to also consider what happens at conception, when two parents of different derivations have a child. That's the most natural, and principle, instance of derivation change to occur to a scion. Which bloodline wins out? And does the child still have the "loser" parent's derivation in them still?

So there definitely is precedence for this idea I have...

[masterdaorin]

So, it's something like this: there are certain qualities to bloodlines that are compatible between each other (otherwise you could not absorb blood points from a different bloodline), and there are qualities that are competitive. The former seems to be tied to the powers strength (more blood = more powers), while the latter is tied to your nature (each bloodline = different set of powers).

This points out that, while sticking to a certain bloodline, your actual essence is indeed a mixture from essences from the previous gods.

Precisely my thoughts, though it then begs the question: where does the power end and the nature take over? Because, in the end, its the nature of the bloodline that ultimately determines what form the power takes.

Hence, my conundrum.


I think The gorgon would stay the same in body but die in a few months or so. he's 3000+ old and he's not an elf. He's not meant to live that long.

Well, more like about 1550 years. But, yes, he might lose his long life blood ability, which should mean that he ages rapidly and dies.

Hence my questions of this thread. I'm of the opinion that scions should maintain as many of their former blood abilities as possible during a derivation change, which would eliminate this possible problem in the above quote (although that's a delicious piece of karma, the Gorgon meeting his demise in such a way).



Here is however, an idea I got from the Blood Enemies (was it?) companion: When does the line between mortal and god ends? By collecting enough divine essence, you may one day have enough power to rival a god, maybe becoming a god yourself. This is how the new gods become so: they were in the first line of battle, and so absorbed so much more divine blood from the old gods. The gorgon never understood why Kriesha and Belinik become gods and he's not. Power is the reason IMHO the Gorgon and other Anwsheghs collect so much blood.

Indeed, and that is the current premise of my campaign.

The 3e rules peg the Gorgon's bloodline at 60 points (120, by the 2e scoring system), so clearly that's not quite enough. When is a bloodline score considered demi-god status?

I'd be curious to know what everyone else thinks is the magic number...



Yes, but it's not D&D-related. Madness. IIIRC all with the blood of Azrai have a raging madness that worsens with each bloodform. Reasoning Awnsheghs are lunatic, prone to anger, while other lose their humanity and become animals (as the Seadrake did). Animals may instead gain some sort of intelligence. This is often used as a plot device (why the gorgon will not erase your brecht domain in a year when you conquered his vassal Kiergard? Because he's mad, thats why!) But may be an alternate goal for "bloodline purification": with power comes a price, maybe they are tired of paying such price.

Yes, hence why I think alignment should play a part in this, and why I believe that a scion's bloodline (and its derivation) does influence the scion who has it and, thus, a derivation's energy is imbued with the essence of the former god, and thus, it is not merely "raw energy". One informs the other.

But... by how much?

[masterdaorin]

So, short of the last one, it would take a very long time to change one's derivation by collecting energy of a different derivation. And nearly every event would need to target the same derivation. For example, consider a character that starts with a bloonline of Brenna, score of 20. They slay a scion of Reynir, and raises their bloodline to 22 total (20 Brenna, 2 Reynir). Then they fell another scion of Reynir for 24 total (20 Brenna, 4 Reynir), etc etc.

In The Book of Regency, there is a section about becoming an awnshegh. This includes some rules for whether a blooded character becomes overwhelmed by the taint of Azrai, and there are some complicated rules for whether the character's bloodline is forcibly changed to that of Azrai's.

Yes, I think this was the original intent of the rules. But then, they had another idea for Azrai's derivation, which was that it was very easy to change to, but they didn't have enough time (or they forgot) to clarify what either meant... until the Book of Regency for the latter, since Ed Stark brought the problem to print with Legends of the Hero Kings.

So, what to do about it...?

[Doyle]

Like a lot of the rules in 2e, I found that this was another that was up for interpretation based on what can we keep consistent in a rule & what feels right for the flavour of the campaign. As a DM I might say 'don't worry about tracking that, I'll just spring a nasty surprise on you later' (the characters should have almost no idea how it works) after coming to an agreement with the players at the start.

Now that I'm running the game in 5e and will need a way of rationalising a mechanic that is 'not from the official 5e rules', while keeping it close to the original rules and flavour. So, my take on the original bloodline for a scion at Deismaar is that there is a mix of absorbed by most scions, with the dominant bloodline being based on proximity to the god the scion followed and that characters alignment (generally still the god that they followed).
Birth bloodline would be based on the parent with the higher bloodline score unless both are the same (or within 10%), where we move to weighted random chance. On d20, 1-9 = parent 1 bloodline, 10-18 = parent 2 bloodline, 19-20 = roll a d6 to determine which of the remaining 5 recessive bloodlines (double chance for Azrai) becomes the dominant.
Bloodline change by bloodtheft (or some spell mechanic) - this was initially only as part of the "Curse of Azrai", and allowed for a percentage chance (1% per point gained) of the bloodline changing to Azrai. However, after reading this, I'm tempted to have the chance of this for any derivation absorbed in bloodtheft.

A note on the blood abilities changed, IIRC it did state in the original rules that only the abilities not compatible with the Azrai bloodline changed, the others remained as is.

[Fizz]

Well, this is the crux of my changed beliefs on bloodlines. Is bloodline energy merely "raw energy"? Or does it still contain the essence of the god that it belonged to?

The source material doesn't seem to support that it's "neutral god energy", for lack of a better word.


In both the 2nd ed Core Rulebook and the 3E conversion, when bloodtheft occurs the blood score increases, but doesn't change the future abilities that might be gained. There is no mechanism in any source that says you have to keep track of how much of each derivation you've gained.

The only time that derivation seems to be changeable is during bloodtheft (per 3E rules discussed in my other post) if the slain's bloodline is stronger than the usurper.


I'm not of the belief that Azrai's blood is stronger than the other derivations... just more seductive, quicker, easier to change to. And, likewise, it's probably harder to change away from it.

I don't think 2nd Ed makes a direct statement of such, but in the 3E conversion (found on this site) it is. If the usurped bloodline is stronger than the character's, the character makes a check to resist the derivation change. There is an effective -10 penalty if the incoming derivation is Azrai, justified as "The corrupting influence of the dark god’s bloodline is particularly difficult to resist".

So i guess it depends on how one means "strength". The blood abilities of Azrai may not be stronger than any other derivation, but the essence may be more difficult to resist even before it takes hold.


However, I'm not convinced anymore that alignment doesn't (or shouldn't) play a role in this. After all, there is canon precedence that implies that those of Azrai have feelings and urges related to evilness, and those of Anduiras lean more toward being just and noble. Presumably, the other derivations do as well (Reynir scions are more nature-orientated, Masela hear the call of sea, etc.)

But there is also precedent for characters that have Azrai's bloodline but are good- Teodor Profiev, for example. If there is a trend, it could be historical. Due to proximity to their deity, there was an immediate dichotomy of bloodlines post-Deismaar. And that dichotomy would have followed back to their home regions where they remain predominant today. So any correlation of alignment with derivation may not require direct causation. After all, the average Anuirean was certainly more just and noble than the average Vos even before Deismaar- such people would naturally follow them whether they have a bloodline or not.


And, of course, we have to also consider what happens at conception, when two parents of different derivations have a child. That's the most natural, and principle, instance of derivation change to occur to a scion. Which bloodline wins out? And does the child still have the "loser" parent's derivation in them still?

That is one that is actually covered. The original Core rulebook specifies that the child gains the derivation of the parent with the stronger bloodline, and the child's bloodline strength is the average value of the parents'. There is no mention of the lesser's derivation.

It's things like the above that are why i like treating deific energy and derivation are independent things; that the derivation shapes the raw energy. It's like adding a flavouring extract to basic ice cream. The extract makes all the flavour difference. :)

I think the rules of how to handle bloodlines was written to be deliberately a bit vague. Unlike later editions, AD&D 2nd did not feel the need to have rules for everything, the DM actually got to decide things! So i don't think there is any one right answer to any of these questions. What matters is how you want it to be in your game.


-Fizz

[Doyle]

Well, more like about 1550 years. But, yes, he might lose his long life blood ability, which should mean that he ages rapidly and dies.


Perhaps not.
Unlike an ability where the the aging process is unnaturally halted and then suddenly catches up when the ability is removed (old vampires turning to dust, etc.), the long life blood ability is worded as "..ages only one year for every five that pass.", every 25 for major or "...only one year for each century." for great, and it specifies the Gorgon as an example.

For the sake of calculation, if we assume Prince Raesene was 20 when gaining his powers (from cannon, he may have only been 16 still), for the 1,500 years following he has only aged 15. If he lost long life and bloodform, he would still have the body of a 35-36 year old - still quite in his prime.

[Fizz]

Perhaps not.
Unlike an ability where the the aging process is unnaturally halted and then suddenly catches up when the ability is removed (old vampires turning to dust, etc.), the long life blood ability is worded as "..ages only one year for every five that pass.", every 25 for major or "...only one year for each century." for great, and it specifies the Gorgon as an example.

I agree with this. I don't think there is any "catching up" to be done here. The blood power changes their physiology. Upon losing the ability he regains his normal physiology, and just resumes aging as a normal human.

-Fizz

[masterdaorin]

A note on the blood abilities changed, IIRC it did state in the original rules that only the abilities not compatible with the Azrai bloodline changed, the others remained as is.

I seem to recall as well, but darned if I can find it... maybe in the BoR? Haven't re-read that one yet...

[masterdaorin]

In both the 2nd ed Core Rulebook and the 3E conversion, when bloodtheft occurs the blood score increases, but doesn't change the future abilities that might be gained. There is no mechanism in any source that says you have to keep track of how much of each derivation you've gained.

I wasn't necessarily implying that we'd need a tracking mechanism. Only that derivations other than Azrai probably have a chance to overwhelm a scion's current bloodline.

It seems to make sense, now that I think about it, considering the nature of bloodlines. That's why I wanted to see what everyone else here thinks about bloodlines.



So i guess it depends on how one means "strength". The blood abilities of Azrai may not be stronger than any other derivation, but the essence may be more difficult to resist even before it takes hold.

And, if that's true, then derivation and score are necessarily linked. Azrai's "taint" suffuses the essence that he gave out, and those that (can) possess it still gain that within the bloodline they receive from him...



But there is also precedent for characters that have Azrai's bloodline but are good- Teodor Profiev, for example. If there is a trend, it could be historical. Due to proximity to their deity, there was an immediate dichotomy of bloodlines post-Deismaar. And that dichotomy would have followed back to their home regions where they remain predominant today. So any correlation of alignment with derivation may not require direct causation. After all, the average Anuirean was certainly more just and noble than the average Vos even before Deismaar- such people would naturally follow them whether they have a bloodline or not.

True, but if derivation and score are linked, then causation could be argued.

My sense from the canon has such people as Teodor having a harder time being good. Statistically speaking, scions of Azrai are less likely to be good than scions of other derivations - and have a harder time remaining so.



That is one that is actually covered. The original Core rulebook specifies that the child gains the derivation of the parent with the stronger bloodline, and the child's bloodline strength is the average value of the parents'. There is no mention of the lesser's derivation.

It's things like the above that are why i like treating deific energy and derivation are independent things; that the derivation shapes the raw energy. It's like adding a flavouring extract to basic ice cream. The extract makes all the flavour difference. :)

If that were true, then derivation would be irrelevant, other than as a label to say "you're just like [old god]".

And this is precisely one of my questions: where does derivation come from? Does it come from within each individual, or from the god who gave the deific energy?

The canon seems to imply that a little essence of the old god still imbues their deific energy that gets passed down and around.

Which brings up a new question: Do the new gods still have influence over the deific energy that they now embody?!



I think the rules of how to handle bloodlines was written to be deliberately a bit vague. Unlike later editions, AD&D 2nd did not feel the need to have rules for everything, the DM actually got to decide things! So i don't think there is any one right answer to any of these questions. What matters is how you want it to be in your game.

Yea, unfortunately. And, while true, I still like to come here and seek consensus from you great gamers for your thoughts on these tough questions! :D

[masterdaorin]

Perhaps not.
Unlike an ability where the the aging process is unnaturally halted and then suddenly catches up when the ability is removed (old vampires turning to dust, etc.), the long life blood ability is worded as "..ages only one year for every five that pass.", every 25 for major or "...only one year for each century." for great, and it specifies the Gorgon as an example.

Well, I'd like to agree with you, and the above is my preference, but now that I think about it...

Are bloodlines "natural"?

It seems to me, the more that I think about it, that they are not natural at all. In terms of the long life blood ability, it "unnaturally halts" the aging process - while you have it.

You can instantly lose your bloodline, after all...

[masterdaorin]

It's things like the above that are why i like treating deific energy and derivation are independent things; that the derivation shapes the raw energy. It's like adding a flavouring extract to basic ice cream. The extract makes all the flavour difference. :)

Don't get me wrong, Fizz, I like this idea, but if that's true then that generates a whole new set of questions, and seems to fly in the face of the source material. Let me see if I have this right:

A scion is born. He is born with a certain amount of raw energy. Since this is divine energy, the scion's own "divine essence" shapes that deific energy into something that is akin to the essence that was [old god] and, as such, after the scion hits puberty, the scion manifests a certain number of divine abilities that [the aforementioned old god] also could perform.

Thus, in essence, a scion's bloodline is individual to that particular scion alone.

[Fizz]

Don't get me wrong, Fizz, I like this idea, but if that's true then that generates a whole new set of questions, and seems to fly in the face of the source material. Let me see if I have this right:

A scion is born. He is born with a certain amount of raw energy. Since this is divine energy, the scion's own "divine essence" shapes that deific energy into something that is akin to the essence that was [old god] and, as such, after the scion hits puberty, the scion manifests a certain number of divine abilities that [the aforementioned old god] also could perform.

Thus, in essence, a scion's bloodline is individual to that particular scion alone.

Though my analogy may not have been ideal, in fact what i've been doing is to find some reasoning that justifies the source material, not to break with it.

The source material says that when bloodtheft occurs, the usurper's bloodline score increases, regardless of what the slain's derivation is or how often. So in theory, a scion with a derivation of Anduiras and score of 10 could slay dozens of scions of Brenna, raising their score to say 25+, but still maintain the same derivation of Anduiras.

Under the 3E conversion, derivation can only change if the stolen bloodline's strength is greater than the usurper's (and only if not successfully resisted).

Maybe a better way of thinking about derivation is that it's like a blueprint or operating system that tells the energy what to do. Every character can only have one OS at a time. In the case of bloodtheft of a stronger bloodline, the stolen derivation can attempt to "overwrite" the current OS, like a computer virus. If it doesn't succeed, then it's just not present in that person.

In the case of a child, it's kind of the same thing: the stronger bloodline provides the blueprint / OS, but the available energy is diluted by the weaker bloodline.


-Fizz

[masterdaorin]

Maybe a better way of thinking about derivation is that it's like a blueprint or operating system that tells the energy what to do. Every character can only have one OS at a time. In the case of bloodtheft of a stronger bloodline, the stolen derivation can attempt to "overwrite" the current OS, like a computer virus. If it doesn't succeed, then it's just not present in that person.

In the case of a child, it's kind of the same thing: the stronger bloodline provides the blueprint / OS, but the available energy is diluted by the weaker bloodline.

That's a great way of looking at it! That's how I've always played it.

However, what happens if we remove that blueprint? What happens to the energy when it's "overwritten"?

I'm not sure anymore about that. Having bloodlines akin to "genetic" is proving something of a quandary.

For example, I'm not sure that certain blood abilities make physiological changes... otherwise, what happens when that physiological change is suddenly removed? Is the change gradual? Or is it something else? Or, rather, are they purely supernatural, and thus operate outside the bounds of reality? AND, is the raw energy itself "sentient"? Does the raw energy itself have some influence over the "OS"? AND, is this raw energy connected with "like-minded" operating systems, in an unbroken line all the way back to Deismaar?

That's what I'm hoping to answer here...

[Fizz]

However, what happens if we remove that blueprint? What happens to the energy when it's "overwritten"?

I would say that the energy is still there, but that the new OS / blueprint begins to reshape it. Maybe some blood abilities are left alone if they don't "conflict" with the new derivation, but others might fade away while other new abilities slowly manifest.


I'm not sure anymore about that. Having bloodlines akin to "genetic" is proving something of a quandary.

For example, I'm not sure that certain blood abilities make physiological changes... otherwise, what happens when that physiological change is suddenly removed? Is the change gradual? Or is it something else? Or, rather, are they purely supernatural, and thus operate outside the bounds of reality?

I think you can have both. Some blood abilities may alter or maintain the character's physiology (Long Life is a good candidate for this), while others are clearly purely magical (such as Summon Elemental).

This is magic, so the normal laws of physics, chemistry and biology as we know them in the real world do not have to apply. You can justify most abilities in multiple ways.

There are no rules for transitioning from one ability to another. I think that's best handled by the DM. Personally, i'd do it slowly. For example, say the character originally had Summon Elemental, but the new derivation doesn't support it. So over time the character finds that Summon Elementals becomes weaker or intermittant, and eventually it just doesn't work at all. Meanwhile, a new ability does the reverse, accidentally occuring at first, and slowly the character gains more control and power with it.


AND, is the raw energy itself "sentient"? Does the raw energy itself have some influence over the "OS"? AND, is this raw energy connected with "like-minded" operating systems, in an unbroken line all the way back to Deismaar?

I don't think the raw energy itself is sentient. It's simply the "material" that the blueprint manipulates to its own ends. How it manifests can be related to various factors; obviously the derivation, but also the personality of the scion, maybe circumstances, whatever you deem relevant.


-Fizz

[Doyle]

I don't think the raw energy itself is sentient. It's simply the "material" that the blueprint manipulates to its own ends. How it manifests can be related to various factors; obviously the derivation, but also the personality of the scion, maybe circumstances, whatever you deem relevant.
-Fizz

IIRC there are a few references to the 'land' choosing an heir and imbuing a worthy commoner with a bloodline. From memory, this was a suggestion for a possible backstory rather than a rule, but it could be extrapolated from that for all the bloodline raw energy that has been 'grounded' could be enough for sentience - at least enough to make a choice of an individual being worthy.

[Fizz]

IIRC there are a few references to the 'land' choosing an heir and imbuing a worthy commoner with a bloodline. From memory, this was a suggestion for a possible backstory rather than a rule, but it could be extrapolated from that for all the bloodline raw energy that has been 'grounded' could be enough for sentience - at least enough to make a choice of an individual being worthy.

I don't know of any reference offhand (not saying you're wrong- i just can't think of one), but it's not a bad idea. In this case, i'd say the "land" is not just the bloodline energy, but a combination of that, the people, mebhaighl, circumstances, the current gods, etc. Even then i don't know that "sentience" would be the right word, as that implies consciousness or self-awareness, which doesn't feel quite right to me (maybe it's just me... heh).

-Fizz

[Doyle]

Fair enough - 'self aware' does sound like too much of a stretch.

[masterdaorin]

I don't think the raw energy itself is sentient. It's simply the "material" that the blueprint manipulates to its own ends. How it manifests can be related to various factors; obviously the derivation, but also the personality of the scion, maybe circumstances, whatever you deem relevant.

Very interesting...

So... is it fair to say then that the derivation is the "actual" bloodline? Perhaps the "raw energy" is simply how much of "the land's essence" responds to that bloodline?

Hmmm....

[masterdaorin]

I believe the "land" choosing an heir comes from the BoP.


Fair enough - 'self aware' does sound like too much of a stretch.

Actually, that idea intrigues me the most. However, that might be making bloodlines too magical for the likes of players... and too complicated.

Still... there's something to be said for the essence to be more than simply raw energy. We are talking about gods here... the original ones. So, probably far, far more powerful (than their successors...).

And, there's the fact that this stuff responds to the will of regents... I dunno... that seems to point to some kind of awareness... Actually, maybe it's the other way around... Hmmm...

[masterdaorin]

Yup, the more I think about it, the more I think you're onto something with your flavor analogy, Fizz, and the more I like it!

First, is there ANY reference to any derivation other than Azrai changing a bloodline in any of the source material? Any reference buried deep in a magic item's description, or a hint in an anecdotal reference in a paragraph?

[Fizz]

Very interesting...
So... is it fair to say then that the derivation is the "actual" bloodline? Perhaps the "raw energy" is simply how much of "the land's essence" responds to that bloodline?
Hmmm....

Well, a bloodline is measured by three things. Derivation (the connection to which deity), strength (purity of the connection), and score (the amount of essence, or energy). And then blood abilities are how the bloodline manifests.

How the bloodline relates to the "Land" is an even more complicated issue. There are regents with weaker bloodlines than many of its citizens, so who rules is not just a matter of strengh or score. But the amount of RP is limited by the bloodline score, so it's not irrelevant either. We also have to consider investiture- without that ceremony there is no bond to the Land, so it's not just a mystical connection that happens automatically.

The best source for this information is The Book of Priestcraft. It covers all types of investiture and even has a section on The Land's Choice in the event that the regency wasn't passed otherwise. If you don't have the book, i highly recommend it as it covers all this material in depth.


-Fizz

[Fizz]

Yup, the more I think about it, the more I think you're onto something with your flavor analogy, Fizz, and the more I like it!

Thanks, hope it helps your storyline.


First, is there ANY reference to any derivation other than Azrai changing a bloodline in any of the source material? Any reference buried deep in a magic item's description, or a hint in an anecdotal reference in a paragraph?

Hmmm... the only source i know offhand is the 3e conversion. I don't know of an original 2nd Ed source that mentions such. I'll have to think and poke around.

The Book of Regency, discusses how one becomes an awnshegh, and has the original rules for how Azrai's derivation can take over. It doesn't say outright, but seems to imply that only Azrai's derivation, and only from an awnshegh (not just any scion of Azrai), can replace one's derivation.

The Magian used the Bloodline Corruption spell to convert the bloodline of The Manticore, but again that was converted to Azrai's. A counterspell is not a stretch, presumably.


-Fizz

[masterdaorin]

Well, a bloodline is measured by three things. Derivation (to which deity has the connection), strength (purity of the bloodline connection), and score (the amount of essence, or energy). And then blood abilities are how the bloodline manifests.

How the bloodline relates to the "Land" is an even more complicated issue. There are regents with weaker bloodlines than many of its citizens, so who rules is not just a matter of strengh or score. But the amount of RP is limited by the bloodline score, so it's not irrelevant either. We also have to consider investiture- without that ceremony there is no bond to the Land, so it's not just a mystical connection that happens automatically.

I think you're on to something with the ice cream flavor analogy. It solves the "land" issue that you perceive as a complication, I think... so, you've helped me understand bloodlines better - thanks!

I think I've been focusing on the wrong factors.

To use your extract flavor analogy, here's how I think it works...

A scion is born. They have a certain "flavor" of divine energy. This flavor is made up of a variety of extractions... mint, chocolate, a combo of chocolate and orange. whatever. This is determined by the derivation of the scion's bloodline. The amount of how each flavor is expressed is determined by the strength of that scion's bloodline, which also determines the overall taste of the combination (the score).

But here's where it gets interesting...

A scion's bloodline can also has a connection to the land, and the people on it, if a special mystical connection to the land is made. This is a symbiotic relationship. So, a scion has a minty flavor, which is just one flavor in a range of flavors in the overall type of ice cream that he is. The Land goes, oooh, its so minty! It responds, and the scion's bloodline gains a certain amount of energy from that, which they can use to do great things, and, in some cases, make themselves more "flavorful". The more minty a regent "tastes", the more the Land responds, by channeling energy to the super-tasty scion.

This also solves the genetic question. A scion is born. They gain a certain flavor mixture because of their parents. However, like other genetic factors, certain flavors are expressed, while others are dormant, or regressive. However, the "taste combination" of the ice cream is still determined by the scion's overall mix, which is a combination of both parents. So how strong those abilities are is still determined by which of the two genes is dominant, but the overall expression is limited by the ice cream extract combination as a whole.

[masterdaorin]

Hmmm... the only source i know offhand is the 3e conversion. I don't know of an original 2nd Ed source that mentions such. I'll have to think and poke around.

The Book of Regency, discusses how one becomes an awnshegh, and has the original rules for how Azrai's derivation can take over. It doesn't say outright, but seems to imply that only Azrai's derivation, and only from an awnshegh (not just any scion of Azrai), can replace one's derivation.

The Magian used the Bloodline Corruption spell to convert the bloodline of The Manticore, but again that was converted to Azrai's. A counterspell is not a stretch, presumably.


That would be helpful, thanks!

I think you're right about that, that only Azrai's bloodline can corrupt.

I need to ponder about that, and figure out why it should only be Azrai's bloodline.

Offhand, can anyone think of a good reason why the other's should corrupt a scion's natural bloodline?

[masterdaorin]

And, you know, this flavor analogy solves another problem I had.

A scion's bloodline is not made from the original source material - the parents. This is NEW "raw energy"... not coming from the parents. The parents just inform the flavor combination.

Life creates it, makes it grow... :D

That would seem to imply, however, that a mixture is within the blood. Which now means that is how a derivation change is possible. They have the genes of ALL the flavors in their blood, but that all but one gene expression are regressive. But that could change...

Now, why are only the Azrai flavors able to become dominant...? Hmmm... What's the secret...?

[masterdaorin]

AH!

Could it be that Azrai's flavor gene suppresses all the others when it is turned on?

[Fizz]

Life creates it, makes it grow... :D

If you start talking about midi-chlorians, i will punch you through your computer screen. :)


That would seem to imply, however, that a mixture is within the blood. Which now means that is how a derivation change is possible. They have the genes of ALL the flavors in their blood, but that all but one gene expression are regressive. But that could change...

Only if you assume that the flavours can be mixed. But the source material suggests that there is only one flavour, determined by the stronger of the parents. The child's bloodline would not be, say, 60% vanilla and 40% chocolate, it would be 100% vanilla.

That's actually why i prefer the OS / blueprint analogy. In the real world mixing flavours is easy, but having more than one OS running at a time doesn't work.


Now, why are only the Azrai flavors able to become dominant...? Hmmm... What's the secret...?

Azrai's flavour is red onion- takes over every dish.

-Fizz

[Fizz]

I think you're right about that, that only Azrai's bloodline can corrupt.

I need to ponder about that, and figure out why it should only be Azrai's bloodline.

Offhand, can anyone think of a good reason why the other's should corrupt a scion's natural bloodline?

For what it's worth, The Book of Regency says: "The blood of the other gods does not tempt like Azrai’s does, and it does not dominate its host."

-Fizz

[masterdaorin]

For what it's worth, The Book of Regency says: "The blood of the other gods does not tempt like Azrai’s does, and it does not dominate its host."

-Fizz

Yes, and that the change is instantaneous. And that there's no known awnshegh who has ever reverted back.

And that a bloodline isn't cognizant, but it does "nudge" scions. It is infused with qualities of the god it came from.

Heh. Guess I should have re-read the BoR before posting this thread... :D

[masterdaorin]

Ok, via the BoR, does the 3e conversion rule regarding derivation change make sense?

A +10 bonus to the Azrai bloodline check seems a little high.

The BoR says that the Azrai bloodline gets d8s in an opposed roll to the d6s of the derivation in peril.

Perhaps the bonus should be +5 instead?

[Fizz]

EDIT- see next post.



Ok, via the BoR, does the 3e conversion rule regarding derivation change make sense?

A +10 bonus to the Azrai bloodline check seems a little high.

The BoR says that the Azrai bloodline gets d8s in an opposed roll to the d6s of the derivation in peril.

Perhaps the bonus should be +5 instead?

On average, a d8 gives you +1 from a d6. So 5d8 will on average be +5 more than 5d6. Plus, because the 3e conversion does allow other derivations to take over, they wanted to make Azrai's taint significantly more difficult to resist. So i think a +10 is fine.

-Fizz

[Fizz]

On average, a d8 gives you +1 from a d6. So 5d8 will on average be +5 more than 5d6. Plus, because the 3e conversion does allow other derivations to take over, they wanted to make Azrai's taint significantly more difficult to resist. So i think a +10 is fine.

I've been thinking about this... because the method used in 3e is so different, it's difficult to compare the two.

In Book of Regency, the number of dice used depends on the bloodline score. So if both are low scores, it's a d6 versus a d8, which only slighty favors Azrai. But as both bloodlines go up (even if exactly the same the values), more dice favors that of Azrai. So the stronger the Azrai bloodline, even if the original bloodline is just as strong, the more easily Azrai's takes over.

But in the 3e version, it is a static bonus. That means even a weak line has a very strong chance of taking over another weak line- in fact the original derivation has to be significantly stronger to stand a chance even against a weak Azrai bloodline. But there is no difference in chances as bloodlines go up. A bloodline of 30 versus 30 has the same odds of taking over as 5 versus 5.

So yeah, i think you're right that +10 is a problem, particularly for weak bloodlines. What to do about it- not sure. Personally i'd just use the method from the Book of Regency. Not everything is best modelled with the same mechanic like 3e does.

-FIzz

[Witness3]

I am not sure what you mean. If the absorbed bloodline is stronger than the usurper's, the absorbed bloodline might take over. (Under the 3e conversion rules.)

-Fizz

What I meant is that I was under the impression that the bloodline takeover would happen only if the absorbed blood points (which are not always the victim's full blood points) are bigger than the killer's blood score. I was wrong.

I have to admit that I was very confused on bloodtheft rules, mixed 3E with 2E, and core rulebook with book of regency. This thread has been a good update on such rules for me.


In all the sources i mentioned earlier the effect of tighmaevril on bloodtheft is included. I don't know specifics about tighmaevril you mean otherwise.

The additional rules are in the book of regency, magic weapon/armor sections, where they discuss blood swords and magic swords with a mixed alloy of bloodsilver and other metals. However, I also got them wrong, I thought that blood swords allowed partial syphoning of blood points. I cannot find such idea anywhere, so I guess I have translated badly some source material years ago. Again, my bad.

[Witness3]

And, you know, this flavor analogy solves another problem I had.

A scion's bloodline is not made from the original source material - the parents. This is NEW "raw energy"... not coming from the parents. The parents just inform the flavor combination.


This actually makes think more complicated. I was under the impression that BR has a "sunset" feel on civilization growing. Civilization grows, so mebhaighl fades - one day magic may be just a myth of the past. Such should be the fate of divine kings, since the divine energy gets watered and watered and lost - unless you count lost blood (those blood points not stolen in bloodtheft) as divine energy returning to the land. On such case, I wonder how the land "digests" bloodlines...

Then there is the newborn issue. If the divine essence is not just inherited from the parents, and its generated anew, then there is no shortage of divine energy as long as blooded individuals breed. This would also mean that the whole "progeny of the old gods" is more a myth than a real connection with Anduiras & the others. Or maybe Anduiras and Brenna are more like "A", "AB", "B+" etc.

Now, why are only the Azrai flavors able to become dominant...? Hmmm... What's the secret...?[/QUOTE]

Well, it is intended that Azrai was much stronger in influencing from the start. After all, it took all the gods to defeat him. I think it is similar to Morgoth - same status as the other gods, but somehow stronger than any of them individually.



Offhand, can anyone think of a good reason why the other's should corrupt a scion's natural bloodline?

We have two great examples: 1. The Magian corruption spell, and 2. The corruption of the last emperor's son, which starts the Michaeline Reckoning and ends the Anuirean Empire.

Changing a bloodline may end an empire, so I'd say its the equivalent of a nuke, in the right hands. Changing a bloodline may deprive the regent of certain blood abilities essential to keep the peace - tainting with Azrai is a guarantee that the regent will be mad and monstrous, probably unfit to rule, but he won't be removed as he'd still be regent. Even better than murder!

Thus being said, if a spell may corrupt, a spell may restore. Domain spells still requires ingredients of some sort, maybe the reversal of the corruption spell requires ingredients so rare that a campaign is needed to find them (something cool and epic like tears of the hydra or a lock of hair of the white witch ).

[Fizz]

This actually makes think more complicated. I was under the impression that BR has a "sunset" feel on civilization growing. Civilization grows, so mebhaighl fades - one day magic may be just a myth of the past. Such should be the fate of divine kings, since the divine energy gets watered and watered and lost - unless you count lost blood (those blood points not stolen in bloodtheft) as divine energy returning to the land. On such case, I wonder how the land "digests" bloodlines...

Well, mebhaighl is the energy from the land. That is different from the bloodlines inherited from the old gods. Bloodline energy is slowly being diluted, but mebhaighl regenerates so long as civilization stays out of the way.


We have two great examples: 1. The Magian corruption spell, and 2. The corruption of the last emperor's son, which starts the Michaeline Reckoning and ends the Anuirean Empire.

Bloodline Corruption, yes. The corruption of Michael's son is an unknown cause (according to the wiki entry anyways). What is the source of that story? I only know it from the wiki.


Thus being said, if a spell may corrupt, a spell may restore. Domain spells still requires ingredients of some sort, maybe the reversal of the corruption spell requires ingredients so rare that a campaign is needed to find them (something cool and epic like tears of the hydra or a lock of hair of the white witch ).

Yes, it should be an epically potent spell. The Magian has only cast Bloodline Corruption once, after all. I agree the components would require some unique component, but since the aim is to remove Azrai's bloodline, it think is should require some sort of component from an ershegh or other antithesis to Azrai. It should probably be an even more difficult spell, since Azrai's bloodline more easily takes hold. and is thus presumably more difficult to remove.

Of course, there is also the Destroy Bloodline spell, but that is frowned upon since bloodlines are so rare, no one wants to lose the energy.


-Fizz

[masterdaorin]

Bloodline Corruption, yes. The corruption of Michael's son is an unknown cause (according to the wiki entry anyways). What is the source of that story? I only know it from the wiki.

It's from the novel War by Simon Hawke.

The way it's described in the novel, it's basic birth. Raesene's bloodline is stronger than Faelin's, and so the child (monster) born is an awnshegh.

What's different, of course, is that Faelin swallows the Gorgon's seed, and that the baby is born manifesting blood signs. I don't mind that (IMC, bloodmarks manifest at birth; the others wait until puberty). I guess I'll add bloodform and bloodtrait to that list. Actually, now that I think about it, it makes sense - that's how the awnsheghlien birth their spawn.

So I don't know why the wiki entry describes it as an unknown cause.

[masterdaorin]

We have two great examples: 1. The Magian corruption spell, and 2. The corruption of the last emperor's son, which starts the Michaeline Reckoning and ends the Anuirean Empire.

Well, both of those examples are for changing the bloodline's derivation to Azrai, but still... it seems logical that the reverse could be true.

However, the more that I think about it, I'm not sure the other derivations should corrupt like Azrai's... and that the 2e version is the best way.

For now I'm keeping the 3e version rules... but that might change in the near future, after I've pondered some more...

[masterdaorin]

Perhaps not.
Unlike an ability where the the aging process is unnaturally halted and then suddenly catches up when the ability is removed (old vampires turning to dust, etc.), the long life blood ability is worded as "..ages only one year for every five that pass.", every 25 for major or "...only one year for each century." for great, and it specifies the Gorgon as an example.

And here is another problem I have with bloodlines.

It's tempting to make some blood abilities extraordinary, rather supernatural, such as long life, I'm not so sure they can be so... nuanced as this.

First, they only start to manifest at puberty. So, it's not part of the "genetic make-up"... or is it? It sounds more like bloodlines respond to emotions and feelings and changes to the physiology of the scion rather than being something that is tied "naturally" into the scion.

Take, for instance, Bloodmark. We'll use the Avan one for this purpose. It's a purple, dragon head birthmark.

What happens to it if Darien Avan suddenly loses his bloodline? Does it remain? Fade away? Suddenly go "pop!" and disappear?

And, if it remains, then what? Its still a recognizable bloodline indicator... I suppose the "effect" of the bloodmark blood ability can be magical, but...

Arrrgh...

[Sorontar]

Take, for instance, Bloodmark. We'll use the Avan one for this purpose. It's a purple, dragon head birthmark.

What happens to it if Darien Avan suddenly loses his bloodline? Does it remain? Fade away? Suddenly go "pop!" and disappear?

And, if it remains, then what? Its still a recognizable bloodline indicator... I suppose the "effect" of the bloodmark blood ability can be magical, but...
Arrrgh...
What if he became Azrai bloodline? Would it change to bloodform and then his head would gradually become dragon or lizard-like?

[Doyle]

There is a note in the Players secrets of Binsada that if the current regent "has invested the PC with her bloodline strength, the only blood ability she retains is her bloodmark."

Not that I'm suggesting that the PS's are always consistent with the rules, but I think it may give the DM the option.

[masterdaorin]

What if he became Azrai bloodline? Would it change to bloodform and then his head would gradually become dragon or lizard-like?

Good question, but probably not. Azrai's derivation retains bloodmarks, so that would probably stay, and Bloodform would take the place of an illegal blood ability.

However, that being said, I'm beginning to think that changing bloodlines is impossible other than to Azrai's derivation. And maybe even impossible to lose your bloodline except at death...

Would make things simpler...

[masterdaorin]

There is a note in the Players secrets of Binsada that if the current regent "has invested the PC with her bloodline strength, the only blood ability she retains is her bloodmark."

Not that I'm suggesting that the PS's are always consistent with the rules, but I think it may give the DM the option.

Yea, that's what I've noticed too. And, so, would she still retain the bonus from her bloodmark ability? Or is it just "cosmetic" now?

Losing your bloodline would seem to imply that you don't have access to its special powers anymore, and yet... here is this example to throw a wrench into things...

If we can answer this question to everyone's satisfaction, then I think this whole bloodline conundrum will be solved...

[masterdaorin]

Has no one has any suggestions regarding bloodmarks?

[Fizz]

Yea, that's what I've noticed too. And, so, would she still retain the bonus from her bloodmark ability? Or is it just "cosmetic" now?

Losing your bloodline would seem to imply that you don't have access to its special powers anymore, and yet... here is this example to throw a wrench into things...

If we can answer this question to everyone's satisfaction, then I think this whole bloodline conundrum will be solved...

It depends if the blood ability is a one-off benefit or if it is something that is a continuous benefit or that has a usage to it.

For example Elemental Control is something that has to be called each time, and every event is clearly a magical (or not normal) event. You need to call upon divine magic each time it is used. So if you lost your bloodline, clearly you'd lose that power.

But in the case of Bloodmark, it feels like a one-time change to your appearance. The magic changes your appearance, then it's done. It's permanent; no continuous magic is required to sustain the change. So i think something like that would remain even if your bloodline was lost.

I think there are other blood abilities that would be permanent as well, not just Bloodmark. Personally, i think i'd decide for each ability separately, rather than have a blanket rule. But your mileage may vary.


-Fizz

[masterdaorin]

Interesting points... must ponder...

[Osprey]

But in the case of Bloodmark, it feels like a one-time change to your appearance. The magic changes your appearance, then it's done. It's permanent; no continuous magic is required to sustain the change. So i think something like that would remain even if your bloodline was lost.

I think this is a good way to handle Bloodmark, and its effects can even still be applied as long as the viewers of the mark believe the character is blooded. If they know the character was divested of their bloodline, eh...if the character is still from a prominent family, the bloodmark still shows their lineage and family in an undeniable way.

I also like that a bloodmark wouldn't necessarily change if someone's bloodline became corrupted. New scions of Azrai should not always be easy to detect without specific magic.

[masterdaorin]

I agree, and it solves a big problem. Thanks, Fizz!

However, other than bloodmark and, perhaps, heightening ability, I don't believe there are any other blood ability that would "work once and then it's done", as Fizz's fix fixes.

Anyone have a problem with heightened ability also sticking?

The only problem with this fix, of course, is it effectively gives "extra" blood abilities to characters that commit blood usurpation.

I suppose that could be accepted, considering the nature of this method.

Plus, this fix does lend more to the argument that only Azrai's bloodline corrupts...

[Osprey]

Anyone have a problem with heightened ability also sticking?

The only problem with this fix, of course, is it effectively gives "extra" blood abilities to characters that commit blood usurpation.

I suppose that could be accepted, considering the nature of this method.

Plus, this fix does lend more to the argument that only Azrai's bloodline corrupts...

I have had Heightened Ability change along with a changed derivation after bloodtheft.
It would be lost in the case of bloodline divestiture as well.

But I run BRCS rules not 2e and have all bloodtheft require contested bloodline checks to determine the winning derivation of the surviving bloodline in each case.

I definitely like that rule better than saying only Azrai's line can change a derivation. It just makes things more variable and changeable, which I enjoy. Birthright already uses a lot less stuff than core D&D (like a comparatively tiny monster list, less magic, and lower avg. NPC levels), so I tend to not want to keep trimming it down more.

[masterdaorin]

I have had Heightened Ability change along with a changed derivation after bloodtheft.
It would be lost in the case of bloodline divestiture as well.

So, the only ability you would keep is bloodmark?


But I run BRCS rules not 2e and have all bloodtheft require contested bloodline checks to determine the winning derivation of the surviving bloodline in each case.

I do like the idea of changing to any derivation, but I'm still pondering that one... right now, I'm leaning against it...

[Fizz]

So, the only ability you would keep is bloodmark?

Sorry for my delayed reply- got busy and needed some time to go through the book.

Note that my following comments are based on the 2nd ed version- don't know how much the 3E versions differ.

I think there are a number of blood abilities other than Bloodmark that could continue to apply even if the blood derivation is changed. Again, it depends on exactly how you think the blood abilities affected the recipient.

For example, Battlewise makes one a tactical genius. Do you consider that a one time benefit- the divine magic permanently modifies the brain, then the magic is done. If so, then changing derivation shouldn't affect that ability. You'd need another type of magic to "undo" what the initial divine energy did. Conversely, if you think that Battlewise is a permanent magical benefit, that there is "magic in the brain", then losing the blood power would affect it.

Heightened Ability falls into the same question as above. And there are several others to be considered as well. Consider the following:

Blood History gives you memories, but once the memories are in the brain, is any further magic needed? It'd take more magic to remove the memories, wouldn't it? Or are the memories from a continuing connection to the gods which can be severed?

Or consider Iron Will, which makes the recipient tougher to dominate. It's not blanket immunity, just make the recipient more resistant to mental attacks. That could be justified as the divine energy making a tweak to the body, and then being done. Or is it a magical essence that remains in the blood always working?

Something like Long Life is magical, as it makes the body continually behave beyond the normal rules of physiology (it's not just slowing down the metabolism, else the person could barely function). But if it's lost the person would just start aging normally again. (Kind of like relatively time dialation actually...)

Now, some abilities are clearly magical. They either duplicate magical effects or have to actually be "called" into usage. Regeneration for example goes well beyond any improvements to physiology. Courage is able to overcome magical Fear, so it's clearly magical.

There might be abilities that might be considered mundane as minor abilities, but are clearly magical at major or great abilities.

If i were to generalize, i'd say if the effect is overtly magical then losing the derivation would definitely result in losing the blood ability. Otherwise, i think it depends on how you think (or want) blood powers to affect the person.

Note i'm not saying either way is right or wrong, merely that there need not be a single rule. There are plenty of ways to justify keeping many blood abilities even if the derivation is lost.

-Fizz

[Osprey]

So, the only ability you would keep is bloodmark?

Yes. I see almost all other blood powers as abilities that require the divine connection to the old god's divine essence to be sustained.

Heightened abilities? Definitely need the old god's power in you to have that.

Blood history? I have always seen this ability as using the divine power to temporarily connect (sometimes involuntarily) to one's ancestral memories. But those ancestors should be of the same exact bloodline as you for this very magical effect to occur.
Lose the bloodline, lose the connection to that line of ancestors. Bummer!

Long life I agree that the benefits should end if the power's lost, but no reverse aging as a result. Just normal aging from that point forward.

Iron Will, definitely lost, I see this as divine enhancement, same as heightened abilities.

In general, the memory or history of bloodline abilities should not keep benefiting a divested character or a changed-derivation scion.

I think Bloodmark should remain unique in its persistance, and even then I think it's more interesting for the bloodmark to change or mutate over time if we are describing a changed derivation in a blooded character. Having a new derivation is much like founding a new Dynasty - and having a new bloodmark form to symbolize it is very appropriate.