Bloodlines, Inheritance, usurpation, and confusion!

[Renoir_letrescertain]

Hello ladies and gents,

We've been in a 3.5 Birthright campaign for about 3 years now and we've come across most of the various cases spelled out in the rules when it comes to bloodline usurpation, investiture, inheritance, etc., but I suspect that we have faulty assumptions in our group.

So I'd like to go back to basics.

When a scion is killed and has spilled blood, there is a regency storm and regency is thrown about. AKA Usurpation. Simple enough. If he dies in his sleep without any investiture or heir apparent, his bloodline is returned to the land without fireworks as I understand it.
If a scion has done an investiture ceremony on someone else and dies is where I need some clarity. If he dies of natural causes (read other than being killed in combat), his bloodline is passed to his designated "heir".

Question : If in the above case that scion is killed in violent death, does his bloodline get "stolen" via usurpation or does the bloodline investiture take precedence? In our game, we played it that the bloodline did not get given to the person that stabbed said scion in the heart. Story-wise it was better, but I suspect that the point of usurpation and bloodTHEFT is that is bypasses investiture and heirs...otherwise everyone would go to battle with an investiture and bloodlines would just get stronger and stronger through the generations unless you wiped out an entire family. Also, is there a difference between ursurpation and bloodtheft with regards to the above, or is it only the amount of RP that changes, not what happens per se?
(as a side note, I started suspecting that investitures were bypassed by ursurpation when I learned that M. Roelle had a magical armor that allowed his bloodline to dissipate into the land rather than be stolen by the Gorgon when he died...otherwise what would be the point of that armor.)

Next question : if a scion is wounded and bleeding heavily following a sword fight, but then dies to a fireball, is there also a regency storm? We've been playing it that yes there is. I think its better to have it that way simply to allow non-melee a chance at causing regency storms and preventing the whole "wait for the fighter to finish him off so we can get some regency" meta.

Any clarifications will be most welcome.

[Renoir_letrescertain]

Forgot to include this question:

If a scion commits suicide with a violent, bloody method (slicing veins, slicing throat, knife to the heart, etc.), what happens then?

What if it was a regent with a bloodline investiture spell active on someone else?

[masterdaorin]

When a scion is killed and has spilled blood, there is a regency storm and regency is thrown about. AKA Usurpation. Simple enough. If he dies in his sleep without any investiture or heir apparent, his bloodline is returned to the land without fireworks as I understand it.

Correct.

As a side note, I think this points to the difference between *regency* and *bloodline* - but that's a different discussion.


If a scion has done an investiture ceremony on someone else and dies is where I need some clarity. If he dies of natural causes (read other than being killed in combat), his bloodline is passed to his designated "heir".

Correct, or dies with them without an heir.


Question : If in the above case that scion is killed in violent death, does his bloodline get "stolen" via usurpation or does the bloodline investiture take precedence? In our game, we played it that the bloodline did not get given to the person that stabbed said scion in the heart. Story-wise it was better, but I suspect that the point of usurpation and bloodTHEFT is that is bypasses investiture and heirs...otherwise everyone would go to battle with an investiture and bloodlines would just get stronger and stronger through the generations unless you wiped out an entire family. Also, is there a difference between ursurpation and bloodtheft with regards to the above, or is it only the amount of RP that changes, not what happens per se?
(as a side note, I started suspecting that investitures were bypassed by ursurpation when I learned that M. Roelle had a magical armor that allowed his bloodline to dissipate into the land rather than be stolen by the Gorgon when he died...otherwise what would be the point of that armor.)

Correct - the act of violence severs the link between a scion's bloodline with that of the land and/or heir. It breaks the spell, as such.

Only the amount of RP changes, not the effects of such, so that is the difference between the two types of change.


Next question : if a scion is wounded and bleeding heavily following a sword fight, but then dies to a fireball, is there also a regency storm? We've been playing it that yes there is. I think its better to have it that way simply to allow non-melee a chance at causing regency storms and preventing the whole "wait for the fighter to finish him off so we can get some regency" meta.

Any clarifications will be most welcome.

Some kind of effect (i.e. a ripple or a storm) always happens, IMO (even in natural deaths); that's the way our gaming group has always played it. However, where that energy goes depends on how the scion died.

Your gaming group can certainly say that the fireball caused bleeding in their death throes and, as such, resulted in a spectacular death scene for the unfortunate scion.

[masterdaorin]

If a scion commits suicide with a violent, bloody method (slicing veins, slicing throat, knife to the heart, etc.), what happens then?

The scion has self-defeated their own (previous pre-arranged) wishes, if any. It would happen the same as if someone else has killed the scion.


What if it was a regent with a bloodline investiture spell active on someone else?

The heir would gain the bloodline of the victim, as normal. Note that this means, assuming that they committed suicide alone, that the heir would - effectively - gain the entire bloodline, since there is no one else around to "steal" some of the regency within the bloodline... The killer has effectively usurped their own bloodline... thereby leaving the spell to pick up whatever is left - in this case, the entire bloodline...

Of course, the DM is free to say "the land" or "other objects" pick up some (or all) of this bloodline, if the story demands it.

[Renoir_letrescertain]

Wonderful, thank you both for your inputs.

So now I understand the perils of going into battle as a regent : you can lose it all.

Cheers,

[masterdaorin]

Yup, that is correct!

[Question]

Correct - the act of violence severs the link between a scion's bloodline with that of the land and/or heir. It breaks the spell, as such.

Only the amount of RP changes, not the effects of such, so that is the difference between the two types of change.

Does this not contradict canon? The previous count of ilien was assassinated and his successor inherited things just fine, same when berric cariele was assassinated.

[Osprey]

Bloodtheft
So in the 2e canon rules (Core Rulebook p. 31 - which I am checking now because I haven't used them much ever), it is not violent death that leads to usurpation, it is only a blooded scion killing another scion with a piercing blow through the heart that leads to bloodtheft. The slayer would gain 1 point of bloodline or 2 if the victim's bloodline was stronger than the slayer's. Only the bloodtheft of the last scion of a family line gains more (+1 per 5 points of bloodline).
As Michael Roele was the last scion of a True bloodline of Anduiras, denying the Gorgon that bloodtheft was particularly significant when you understand how much more potent that bloodline gain would have been for the Gorgon.

The victim of bloodtheft also loses any RP they had, which would normally be transferred to the regent's heir upon death.

Note: Tighmaevril (bloodsilver) weapons treat all scion kills as if they were blows through the heart. The Gorgon is said to have a dozen of these weapons yet for some reason does not seem to have been using one when he killed Michael Roele. Seems almost unthinkable.

BRCS note: All of the Highlander-style area explosion of divine energy upon violent death was a fan-made reboot for the BRCS that became the accepted 3e version of Birthright. It dramatically changes the original concepts of bloodtheft, even allowing for groups sharing the bloodline/RP gains from cutting down scions in battle (2 or even 3 nearby scions might gain a bloodline point from a non-heart scion kill in these rules).

Bloodline Investiture (Rulebook pp. 56-57)
This is a Ceremony domain action + clerical Realm Spell (level 1, temple 1) that has 1 regent (usually either a retired or conquered regent - the donor need not be willing, only present) permanently transferring their bloodline to another person (usually an heir or conqueror).
An unblooded recipient gains the entire bloodline; a blooded recipient gains 1 or 2 bloodline strength as if they had committed bloodtheft upon the donor.


UPDATE: canon 2e: p. 78 Book of Priestcraft details how a Ceremony of Designation can be used to both designate an heir and gift that heir with the former regent's bloodline as per bloodline investiture when the regent dies (all in 1 domain action).

Bloodline Ward
I couldn't find this spell anywhere in the 2e material (I checked in the realm spells in core, and in the books of magecraft, priestcraft, and regency, and couldn't find it), so I *think* this is a BRCS addition to the realm spells?

BRCS realm spell

Bloodline Ward
Transmutation
Level: Clr/Drd 4
Target: 1 scion
Duration: 1 week/level
Saving Throw: Special
Spell Resistance: Special
Special Requirements: Temple (1)
This spell allows the caster to forge a connection between the spiritual essence of a willing scion's bloodline and a focus. Due to the protective nature of the magic that creates this channel, attempts to drain or suppress the character's bloodline score are impossible. Any successful attempt to transfer or destroy a character's bloodline causes the divine essence of the bloodline to retreat into the focus (regardless of distance) instead.

This spell can only be cast on a willing scion that is present and touching the object during the final ceremony of the spell. Once the spell is in place, a priest regent can recast this spell to extend the spell's duration. In this case, it is sufficient for either the focus or the regent to be present during the final ceremony.

Bloodtheft is nearly impossible while this spell is in effect. Instead, the dying scion's bloodline is immediately transferred to the focus (regardless of distance). Only bloodtheft with a tighmaevril weapon can successfully penetrate this spell's protection. Bloodline ward also prevents a dying scion's essence from passing to his invested heir - the bloodline instead retreats to the focus.

If the scion's essence should be transferred into the focus, he loses all benefits of their bloodline including blood abilities, bonus hit points due to the scion template, and the ability to perform true magic without elven blood. If the scion survives, he can reclaim their bloodline by taking possession of the focus (ending the spell immediately). Furthermore, a rightfully invested heir can claim the scion's bloodline through the focus through a normal investiture as if the regent was alive, present, and willing to pass his bloodline in full to his heir.

If the focus contains a divine essence and is destroyed (or if the spell ends), the contained bloodline erupts from the focus in a burst of power identical to that released by a slain scion.
Focus: The physical object that serves as the focus for this spell is a gem of no less than 1,000gp value. This gem must be of a type sympathetic to the nature of the target's bloodline derivation: the bloodline of Anduiras manifests in red rubies; Azrai's power pulses within black sapphires; Basaïa's energy lies in bright yellow topaz; Brenna's bloodline is embedded in deep orange jacinths; Masela's bloodline sympathizes with blue sapphires; Reynir's essence can be channeled through green emeralds; and Vorynn's power lies in diamonds. This gem is often set in a ring, pendant, sword, or other object.
Regency Cost: 4 RP.
Material Components: 1 GB worth of expendable ritual components.

This is the only way I know of for a mortal scion to cheat bloodtheft other than magical items that either do the same thing or ground a bloodline upon death.
However, bloodtheft / usurpation was far more rare in original Birthright if it required death by heart piercing or bloodsilver, and only at the hands of another blooded scion! So perhaps the need for bloodline warding as a known protection for temple-friendly regents was not so strong in the canon setting as it became with the BRCS bloodtheft rules making bloodtheft far more common and likely in battle!

Check out the Bloodline Investiture realm spell for 3/3.5e BRCS rules, it mentions the spell's completion can be delayed but would still require the living regent and the casting cleric to complete the spell together before the regent dies. So no bloodtheft protection there, just a chance to finish the spell on short notice.

[masterdaorin]

Does this not contradict canon? The previous count of ilien was assassinated and his successor inherited things just fine, same when berric cariele was assassinated.

No - it depends on the nature of the death.

Usurpation only occurs with a pierce through the heart. Poisoning, for example, does not result in blood-theft, even if it is murder.

Not sure who Berric Cariele is - he must be a fan-created NPC...

[masterdaorin]

Bloodtheft
So in the 2e canon rules (Core Rulebook p. 31 - which I am checking now because I haven't used them much ever), it is not violent death that leads to usurpation, it is only a blooded scion killing another scion with a piercing blow through the heart that leads to bloodtheft. The slayer would gain 1 point of bloodline or 2 if the victim's bloodline was stronger than the slayer's. Only the bloodtheft of the last scion of a family line gains more (+1 per 5 points of bloodline).

As Michael Roele was the last scion of a True bloodline of Anduiras, denying the Gorgon that bloodtheft was particularly significant when you understand how much more potent that bloodline gain would have been for the Gorgon.

The victim of bloodtheft also loses any RP they had, which would normally be transferred to the regent's heir upon death.

Note: Tighmaevril (bloodsilver) weapons treat all scion kills as if they were blows through the heart. The Gorgon is said to have a dozen of these weapons yet for some reason does not seem to have been using one when he killed Michael Roele. Seems almost unthinkable.

...

BRCS note: All of the Highlander-style area explosion of divine energy upon violent death was a fan-made reboot for the BRCS that became the accepted 3e version of Birthright. It dramatically changes the original concepts of bloodtheft, even allowing for groups sharing the bloodline/RP gains from cutting down scions in battle (2 or even 3 nearby scions might gain a bloodline point from a non-heart scion kill in these rules).

...

Bloodline Ward
I couldn't find this spell anywhere in the 2e material (I checked in the realm spells in core, and in the books of magecraft, priestcraft, and regency, and couldn't find it), so I *think* this is a BRCS addition to the realm spells?

...

This is the only way I know of for a mortal scion to cheat bloodtheft other than magical items that either do the same thing or ground a bloodline upon death.
However, bloodtheft / usurpation was far more rare in original Birthright if it required death by heart piercing or bloodsilver, and only at the hands of another blooded scion! So perhaps the need for bloodline warding as a known protection for temple-friendly regents was not so strong in the canon setting as it became with the BRCS bloodtheft rules making bloodtheft far more common and likely in battle!

Correct, except for the number of tighmaeril weapons that the Gorgon is rumored to possess.

However, I think the 3e creators were attempting to address some inconsistencies in the canon material with the way they changed things (Bloodline Ward spell, usurpation, etc.).

For example, how did the original recipients gain bloodlines?

I like the idea that blood-theft can occur without one being a scion - that commoners, and even objects, can suddenly find themselves infused with divinity...

It should still remain a violent death, however. Otherwise, as the thread-starter indicated, protecting one's bloodline would become much more complicated...

[Question]

No - it depends on the nature of the death.

Usurpation only occurs with a pierce through the heart. Poisoning, for example, does not result in blood-theft, even if it is murder.

Not sure who Berric Cariele is - he must be a fan-created NPC...

Might be wrong, but above my post you can see people saying that all forms of violent death cause bloodtheft.

Berric Cariele is listed in the Birthright.net Cariele article, i dont know if hes a fan created NPC but the article doesnt seem to specify one way or the other.

I'm not even sure if AD&D had any history writes up for the realms. The Atlas and Ruins of Empires doesnt give a detailed history write up for the realms and Cariele never got a "Player's secrets" sourcebook.

[masterdaorin]

Might be wrong, but above my post you can see people saying that all forms of violent death cause bloodtheft.

Yes, the 3e made it merely "the spilling of blood", not, as Osprey confirmed with the 2e rules, that only a pierce to the heart enabled bloodtheft.

I do like the 3e new form, making the divine essence - literally - locked in the blood.

But the idea of the heart of the source of power does hold merit, I must admit...

What is everyone's preference?

[AndrewTall]

Some gain from killing a scion makes much more sense when you consider the idea of Awnsheghlien actively hunting scions to commit bloodtheft, and 3e makes it easier than a called shot to the heart for them to do that. That said there's no reason not to have 2 tiers of bloodline theft, one fairly minor from a violent death in the vicinity, and a larger one if you go 'full highlander'.

I would note however that socially I would expect very strong memes against committing bloodtheft, partly to prevent the slaughter of the nobility, partly because of the association (and risk of turning into) awnsheghlien, partly because of the impiety of stealing godly essence from its 'rightful owner' - there will be some circumstances when it is permitted, even perhaps encouraged, but there will be social rules...

[masterdaorin]

Precisely...

Plus the fact, lets not forget, that the divine essence itself seems to have a will of its own...

I think that fact usually gets lost in the "flashy-ness" of bloodlines... it's a symbiotic relationship, I'd wager...

[masterdaorin]

I would note however that socially I would expect very strong memes against committing bloodtheft, partly to prevent the slaughter of the nobility, partly because of the association (and risk of turning into) awnsheghlien, partly because of the impiety of stealing godly essence from its 'rightful owner' - there will be some circumstances when it is permitted, even perhaps encouraged, but there will be social rules...

I've always wondered about the latter idea... particularly because of the reasons you stated before that last idea.

I'm not even sure bloodtheft would be encouraged under any circumstances... too much risk of the blood of Azrai breeding true, I'd wager...

I also think that the idea is present in the canon sources that all scions have a mixture of the essence of all the gods... one's bloodline merely has more of, or emphasizes one god's essence, if you will, over the other six within their bloodline...

This subject is definitely one that I think this site should more fully develop... nail down specifics on...

[AndrewTall]

In society there are always trade-offs, many scions will want to strengthen their bloodline through bloodtheft, so you get a strong drive for acceptance amongst weaker scions, matched against a strong drive against by stronger scions fearing attack. The strong ones would happily gain strength through bloodtheft themselves of course, but they are out-numbered so overall against.

So I would expect that, as with dueling codes, there would be very strict social rules about when scions can openly try to commit bloodtheft - but as with dueling codes (indeed likely the two would be merged) there would be times when 2 scions can fight with the winner having the right to claim the bloodline of the slain.

Of course it is also possible, as with duels, that there is a social acceptance of the practice in some circumstances, but it remains technically illegal to reduce the number of cases, or it is legal but considered a sin under local church law, so a victorious scion would have to make atonement to the appropriate church.

I would agree that many, if not all, scions have a bloodline that isn't 'pure', so it has traces of other bloodlines, like Azrai, which under the right circumstance could lead the scion to change their bloodline derivation (particularly with Azrai), either because the scion commits bloodtheft and 'tips the balance', or their actions/alignment strongly favour a different old god than the one whose bloodline is 'theirs' leading to the weaker bloodline to strengthen and come to dominate.

[masterdaorin]

I would think that bloodtheft would be one of those things that are considered taboo - like regular theft, but more personal.

It would be akin to being considered as stealing someone's soul.

As such, I'm willing to bet that bloodtheft is very much frowned upon, under almost any circumstance.

Probably, it would involve a judge and legal stuff, the involvement of the local church, and only "acceptable" on convicted non-noble scions.

Considering the time period, the noble class would be "judged by their peers" and, as such, things are usually settled by duels - and, rightly, would have its own set of rules. But I'm willing to bet that bloodtheft is a restriction - too base a reason to be the outcome of a duel of honour.

Of course, it would happen anyway - people being people.

Now, in Vos society, on the on the other hand, yes - it probably happens as a matter of course...

[Osprey]

I would agree that many, if not all, scions have a bloodline that isn't 'pure', so it has traces of other bloodlines, like Azrai, which under the right circumstance could lead the scion to change their bloodline derivation (particularly with Azrai), either because the scion commits bloodtheft and 'tips the balance', or their actions/alignment strongly favour a different old god than the one whose bloodline is 'theirs' leading to the weaker bloodline to strengthen and come to dominate.

I have thought about this idea a lot over the years. There are pros and cons to the canon way of "all or nothing" bloodlines - that is, whichever derivation wins in a bloodtheft completely subsumes the losing derivation.

I always believed this meant that the losing bloodline is defeated and transformed into the winning bloodline - especially because it usually only represents a point or 2 of bloodline strength gained,a tiny fraction of the user's total power.

Spiritually, I imagined a cosmology where the essences of the old gods are literally fighting for survival and growth, by their very nature converting any divine power they meet into more of their own essence if they can (and Azrai's essence being far better at this than the other old gods). So over time there are 2 ways the old gods' essence grows: through dominating the bloodlines of natural children of scions, and through dominating the bloodlines of bloodtheft victims.

There may actually be some measurable total amount of each old god's divine energy surviving through mortals and a few objects on Aebrynis, and successful lines like Anduiras and Azrai may have grown significantly in total energy since Deismaar.

One could then speculate whether the old gods' bloodlines are still connected to or empowering their successor deities?
(In my version of Cerilia I do have the temple organizations and total worshippers focused through them having a major effect on the current deities' respective divine power, since they are so closely tied to Cerilia and nowhere else as far as we know).

Dormant, subsumed but not destroyed bloodlines can make for fun complexity in bloodlines, but seem to want to change the above metaphysics into something more like a zero-sum equation, where no bloodline is ever destroyed or transformed, only... enslaved? vassalized? - to other lines. ;)
This makes the growth of new bloodlines through sexual reproduction something of a different issue (that is, where does the new bloodline energy come from? Can it actually grow? Is natural reproduction the only way the old gods' energies can actually increase?)

[Osprey]

I would think that bloodtheft would be one of those things that are considered taboo - like regular theft, but more personal.

It would be akin to being considered as stealing someone's soul.

As such, I'm willing to bet that bloodtheft is very much frowned upon, under almost any circumstance.

Probably, it would involve a judge and legal stuff, the involvement of the local church, and only "acceptable" on convicted non-noble scions.

Considering the time period, the noble class would be "judged by their peers" and, as such, things are usually settled by duels - and, rightly, would have its own set of rules. But I'm willing to bet that bloodtheft is a restriction - too base a reason to be the outcome of a duel of honour.

Of course, it would happen anyway - people being people.

Now, in Vos society, on the on the other hand, yes - it probably happens as a matter of course...

In Anuire at least, there is an awful lot of "trial by combat" culture that would certainly include rules for when bloodtheft is "OK by Haelyn!" :D Cuiraecen would tend to follow with looser rules and even encouragement of bloodtheft of evil foes in single combat. (Risk of taint is part of the spiritual trial, right? Great basis for fallen paladins too! ;) ).

Anuireans justify wars for a lot of reasons, and I think the wars then justify a lot of violent acts that are unacceptable in peacetime. Bloodtheft on the battlefield would certainly be at the top of those allowances.
I think in well-justified wars where an invader or other enemy regent is publicly made out to be a villain, bloodthefting the villain and their scion followers either on the battlefield or even as a form of execution would be acceptable to most Anuireans so long as they believed in the victims' villainy. Good PR campaigns / diplomacy / propaganda tend to really matter here, for regents in particular.

Brechts have a lot of dueling too, but I imagine they get pretty loose with the ethical rules, as the one left living is clearly the real winner at the end of any duel!

Khinasi would be all about the rules of the duel not the participants. I am not sure how Avani feels about bloodtheft, but I expect her temples would influence Khinasi laws and mores about bloodtheft the most in those lands.

Vos = get it if you can! :D

[masterdaorin]

Dormant, subsumed but not destroyed bloodlines can make for fun complexity in bloodlines, but seem to want to change the above metaphysics into something more like a zero-sum equation, where no bloodline is ever destroyed or transformed, only... enslaved? vassalized? - to other lines. ;)
This makes the growth of new bloodlines through sexual reproduction something of a different issue (that is, where does the new bloodline energy come from? Can it actually grow? Is natural reproduction the only way the old gods' energies can actually increase?)

Yes, to both ideas.

This is a fight for survival - and not, as most people would likely presume, between mortals...

That's what the data in the canon seems to indicate...

[masterdaorin]

In Anuire at least, there is an awful lot of "trial by combat" culture that would certainly include rules for when bloodtheft is "OK by Haelyn!" :D Cuiraecen would tend to follow with looser rules and even encouragement of bloodtheft of evil foes in single combat. (Risk of taint is part of the spiritual trial, right? Great basis for fallen paladins too! ;) ).

Anuireans justify wars for a lot of reasons, and I think the wars then justify a lot of violent acts that are unacceptable in peacetime. Bloodtheft on the battlefield would certainly be at the top of those allowances.
I think in well-justified wars where an invader or other enemy regent is publicly made out to be a villain, bloodthefting the villain and their scion followers either on the battlefield or even as a form of execution would be acceptable to most Anuireans so long as they believed in the victims' villainy. Good PR campaigns / diplomacy / propaganda tend to really matter here, for regents in particular.

Brechts have a lot of dueling too, but I imagine they get pretty loose with the ethical rules, as the one left living is clearly the real winner at the end of any duel!

Khinasi would be all about the rules of the duel not the participants. I am not sure how Avani feels about bloodtheft, but I expect her temples would influence Khinasi laws and mores about bloodtheft the most in those lands.

Vos = get it if you can! :D

I get a different take from the cultures of Cerilia, and the whole idea of bloodlines.

Haelyn is the god of nobles. of order, and of righteousness. He would want you to always keep in your heart the importance of keeping things whole, and in their place. Thievery is a sin... Everyone was born a certain way, and you should learn to accept your lot in life... it's that way for a reason - a good reason. Even in war - going around slumming for bloodlines is not a good reason for war. Sadly, too many people do so anyway, and ignore the dictates of their wise god, and fall into sin.

Sera is about balance. How would this theft likely to factor into the whole? If it makes sense to do so, then ok... but, collecting all of the divine essence of the gods into fewer and fewer individuals is not really balanced, is it? And then there are the natural tendencies of humans that need to be factored into the equation... all in all, lots of rules need to be in place for this act not to upset the balance of existence. There is more to think about than personal gain in the moment...

Erik is about the natural way. Sullying your line with anything other than the natural essence of your own line (especially the most noble blood, Reynir) is a perversion of nature. This is the way it was since the beginning, has been, and should always be. Do not mess with the natural way of things - the normal way of doing things of this nature is the best way. Do not be greedy - take only that which you need... this act does not allow you to share... to renew the cycle of life...

Avani is about law and order. We are a proud people, and it is a sin to be greedy, to murder, to kill without righteousness. We must maintain the sanctity of our person. Those not of your bloodline that Avani has saw fit to bless with many children are impure - do not allow yourself to be swayed by the thoughts of the Darkling... That path leads only to darkness, and ruin...

Belinik and Kriesha are about doing whatever you can to survive. If the target is weak and does not have the strength of blood to survive, then it is the will of the gods for you to consume their bloodline and strengthen your own with it. Such is the way of things... There are rules of honor and of family to observe in such matters, however... you are not a beast, a mongrel gnoll of the Wastes, who simply kills without reason... if you kill for the wrong reason(s), then you deserve to die, too...

This essence of human gods is not Us. In a way, it is a curse. This is not The Way of Our People. Do not let the proclivities of humanity corrupt your elven nature...

There is only One God, and that is the Soulforger. He gave your forefather a choice in the time of Gideon Rinsparr: follow whomever you choose, and do not waver from your heart's inclination during the Battle. Be a rock. Be stalwart in heart, and do not falter - ever. Your forefather's choice was blessed by Moradin - do not blasphemy, by thinking to claim the bloodright of others... Moradin has a Plan - it's a good one. He will provide for you, when the time is right, if such a thing is in the Plan. No right-thinking dwarf should stray from the Plan.

Yondalla tells us not to fight - we are a peaceful people, we Little Folk. It is not proper to kill. Do not think of such things. Such thinking will only lead to despair and ruin.

Kartathok (Torazon/Yeenoghu) says kill, or be killed! Argh!!! Die!!! (The former two have certain accepted methods for bloodtheft - loose as they are, by human standards).

[Osprey]

I get a different take from the cultures of Cerilia, and the whole idea of bloodlines.

Haelyn is the god of nobles. of order, and of righteousness. He would want you to always keep in your heart the importance of keeping things whole, and in their place. Thievery is a sin... Everyone was born a certain way, and you should learn to accept your lot in life... it's that way for a reason - a good reason. Even in war - going around slumming for bloodlines is not a good reason for war. Sadly, too many people do so anyway, and ignore the dictates of their wise god, and fall into sin.

Sera is about balance. How would this theft likely to factor into the whole? If it makes sense to do so, then ok... but, collecting all of the divine essence of the gods into fewer and fewer individuals is not really balanced, is it? And then there are the natural tendencies of humans that need to be factored into the equation... all in all, lots of rules need to be in place for this act not to upset the balance of existence. There is more to think about than personal gain in the moment...

Erik is about the natural way. Sullying your line with anything other than the natural essence of your own line (especially the most noble blood, Reynir) is a perversion of nature. This is the way it was since the beginning, has been, and should always be. Do not mess with the natural way of things - the normal way of doing things of this nature is the best way. Do not be greedy - take only that which you need... this act does not allow you to share... to renew the cycle of life...

Avani is about law and order. We are a proud people, and it is a sin to be greedy, to murder, to kill without righteousness. We must maintain the sanctity of our person. Those not of your bloodline that Avani has saw fit to bless with many children are impure - do not allow yourself to be swayed by the thoughts of the Darkling... That path leads only to darkness, and ruin...

Belinik and Kriesha are about doing whatever you can to survive. If the target is weak and does not have the strength of blood to survive, then it is the will of the gods for you to consume their bloodline and strengthen your own with it. Such is the way of things... There are rules of honor and of family to observe in such matters, however... you are not a beast, a mongrel gnoll of the Wastes, who simply kills without reason... if you kill for the wrong reason(s), then you deserve to die, too...

This essence of human gods is not Us. In a way, it is a curse. This is not The Way of Our People. Do not let the proclivities of humanity corrupt your elven nature...

There is only One God, and that is the Soulforger. He gave your forefather a choice in the time of Gideon Rinsparr: follow whomever you choose, and do not waver from your heart's inclination during the Battle. Be a rock. Be stalwart in heart, and do not falter - ever. Your forefather's choice was blessed by Moradin - do not blasphemy, by thinking to claim the bloodright of others... Moradin has a Plan - it's a good one. He will provide for you, when the time is right, if such a thing is in the Plan. No right-thinking dwarf should stray from the Plan.

Yondalla tells us not to fight - we are a peaceful people, we Little Folk. It is not proper to kill. Do not think of such things. Such thinking will only lead to despair and ruin.

Kartathok (Torazon/Yeenoghu) says kill, or be killed! Argh!!! Die!!! (The former two have certain accepted methods for bloodtheft - loose as they are, by human standards).

I think after 1500 years of bloodlines being around, the gods' ideals like you imagine them would not be what humans practice anymore, they would be heavily distorted to suit human greed in every single culture. That's why most temples of Haelyn ended up Lawful Neutral in alignment in the core Anuirean setting...because the most compassionate ideals of Haelyn have been lost in favor of legalism and old men of power securing their power generation after generation. (Sounds familiar, doesn't it?)

[masterdaorin]

I think after 1500 years of bloodlines being around, the gods' ideals like you imagine them would not be what humans practice anymore, they would be heavily distorted to suit human greed in every single culture. That's why most temples of Haelyn ended up Lawful Neutral in alignment in the core Anuirean setting...because the most compassionate ideals of Haelyn have been lost in favor of legalism and old men of power securing their power generation after generation. (Sounds familiar, doesn't it?)

That would be true in the real world, of course... and more or less true in the Birthright world as well.

Most temples end up some form of neutral because that alignment bent appeals to the most number of people without overly offending their personal inclinations... and the major sects are about including as many people as they can into their fold, despite the particular ideals that they may espouse. More people = more gold in the coffers... if you get right down to brass tacks...

That all being said, don't forget to factor into your conclusions regarding bloodtheft that deities and magic are real in this world. That carries a little more weight in this thread's consideration than it has had in the real world.

Priests have genuine power in this world - and, I presume, aren't afraid to use it... Excommunication has real consequences... much more so than in the real world.

That being said, many secular people, like in the real world, would be inclined to ignore what the fuddy-duddy priests say, and do what they want to do anyway, if they thought they could get away with the act without censure or drawbacks - the power still rests in the hands of the nobles, of course, and they make the rules (outside religion).

There would be unofficial and commonly accepted norms around bloodtheft in each society - but these wouldn't be endorsed legally, or even publicly acknowledged in most instances, I would argue - for the above-named reasons... Honor and "face" is still a VERY big deal in this world.

I have yet to read an argument that would convince me that bloodtheft would be considered a socially-accepted norm in a (non-evil) culture of Cerilia.

[masterdaorin]

And, to add to that, remember that bloodlines aren't just magic powers.

They represent blood-lines - they represent a dynasty. You belong to the AVAN bloodline, to the BOERUINE bloodline... etc., etc. etc.

That carries weight. Way more than our modern way of thinking understands.

Families would want to protect that name, that idea, that purity of line.

You think to steal OUR bloodline? We will not have some mongrel seek to slake their base inclinations with OUR family's name, OUR divinity gifted to us by the gods, by the foresight of our forefather, the Champion of our bloodline.

Noble families would go to very great lengths to ensure that their bloodline remains in the best possible way, be seen in the best possible light...

They wouldn't want that "lesser" Isiliviere bloodline, for example, mucking up their "better" bloodline. That bloodline carries a shaper-changer - ewww! You see? Isilivieres are "monsters"! You can't trust them... they'll breed another monster with that union - you'll see... OR, pertaining to this thread: sucking up that bloodline runs you the risk of gaining some unforeseen undesirable power... all sorts of superstition would run rampant in this day and age, in this world.

That, of course, needs to be balanced with the desire to strengthen one's family bloodline - but, it would have to be seen as a noble way of doing so...