Pronunciation Guide

[masterdaorin]

Has there ever been any attempt here to create a pronunciation guide for some of the harder to pronounce words in BR?

[Fizz]

Has there ever been any attempt here to create a pronunciation guide for some of the harder to pronounce words in BR?

The original boxed set had a card that explained the sounds of Anuirean.

Elvish of Cerilia is based on Welsh, so if you follow those rules you can pronounce it properly. (for example, w is an "oo" sound, d sounds like "th". etc.)

Rich Baker put out a number of pronounciation examples as well; part of his "Lost Files" that came out several years back.

-Fizz

[masterdaorin]

Those I have. Not all of the words are covered (in Brechtur, Khinasi, Rjurik, or Vosgaard), however.

Like, how do you pronounce Dzhl? That one is probably easy, but there are others... Like Mesire... I'm not sure how to tackle that one. I want to say me-SEER, but its probably me-SIRE.

Should we post these words here and the community can hash them out...?

[Fizz]

Those I have. Not all of the words are covered (in Brechtur, Khinasi, Rjurik, or Vosgaard), however.

Like, how do you pronounce Dzhl? That one is probably easy, but there are others... Like Mesire... I'm not sure how to tackle that one. I want to say me-SEER, but its probably me-SIRE.

Should we post these words here and the community can hash them out...?


Not all languages are covered no. So you can pronounce those words however you want. Whatever works for your game! :)

That said, since the nations have real-world analogs, i'd just make the language match that. Brechtur is primarily based on Hanseatic Germany, so the language would sound heavily germanic, maybe with a bit of Dutch mixed in. Rjurik would be based on scandanavian languages, and Vos based on something slavic, such as Ukrainian or Russian (maybe with some Finnish). Khinasi is a bit trickier to my ear. They are loosely based on Moorish Spain, so perhaps a mix of Arabic with some Egyptian and maybe other north African influences.

So for me, i just consider how it'd sounds to the real-world analog, and go with that. No doubt i'm not perfect with it, but no one has ever complained.


-Fizz

[masterdaorin]

So for me, i just consider how it'd sounds to the real-world analog, and go with that. No doubt i'm not perfect with it, but no one has ever complained.
-Fizz

We do too, but I was just wondering if the community here has ever attempted it.

The problem, too, is that the game doesn't follow its own "rules" sometimes either. For example, I'm pretty sure Anuireans should be pronounced an-UR-EE-ans, like the audio file suggests, but I belief some other canon source says it's supposed to be: an-WEER-ee-ans.

It would just be nice to have some sort of consensus, I was thinking. I had the thought yesterday all of a sudden: how would you pronounce Aftane?

One of my players has always pronounced it: AHF-tain. But as I had that thought, it suddenly struck me that it's probably more like: ahf-TAN-eh. [edit: actually, < that is right, according to Google translate - lol]

Google translate isn't all that helpful with most of these words either... and since I don't speak any of the analog real-world languages... just curious if some of the community members who do speak those real-world languages could help...

[Sorontar]

The problem with any attempt to define an accent is that there will often be local variations. For instance, you may be familiar with an American or French or English or German accent, even though you don't live there. However, there is more than one American/French/English/German accent, so your knowledge is probably not precise enough. Different regions will have different accents. A local accent from Cornwall is different to one from Liverpool and one from Manchester. Likewise, Swiss German and Bavarian German and Belgian German are quite different, even though they are still all speaking German.

Furthermore, some languages also require intonation or syllable accenting to be incorporated. It is not just what sounds you say but the length, pitch/es and stress you place on those sounds.

Most of these things are not discussed, except by linguists, interpreters and translators.

So yes, Anuireans speak the same language but they won't always say thinghs the same way. Likewise for elves and dwarves from different realms. Even the halflings in the Burrows might have terms and slight differences in how the locals from each province speaks, or what terms they use for certain foods and produces.

Sorontar, linguist

[masterdaorin]

I agree, Sorontar, but I think it would be helpful to have some sort of guide for the community.

We've been pronouncing Aftane wrong all these years! LoL. At least, according to Google translate, using the Arabic version of Aftane...

Mesire (if Turkish), is pronounced me-SIGH-ah... I think... it was hard to understand through my tinny laptop speakers... sigh.

Meh, whatever. I suppose there's not much interest from any here. But I might just slog through all the place names and add a helpful pronunciation (--) indicator to my Atlas document, just like the canon documents do for certain words (i.e. tighmaevril).

[AndrewTall]

I'm sure that people would be interested if you did a wiki page on pronunciation, if you aren't sure how to wiki text, you could post what you come up with in the forum or upload a word doc and Sorontar or I will then put it on the wiki.

[masterdaorin]

Ok, you got it! It may take me several weeks...

[Witness3]

I love how much language helps in creating a mood and a sense of diversity. My players are currently waging war in Mieres, I've decided that Mierese people do not speak anuireian but a weird mix between andu, rjuven and high brecht, called post imperial or adurian, which is Esperanto in reality, since there is little communication between Mieres and Anuire after the fall of the empire, so Mieres kinda evolved their language indipendently.

I think that a pronunciation guide, even as simple as an entry inside every realm page, would be a wonderful thing. And I would love to help if possible.

I think it would benefit everyone from all the world if we use the IPA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_Alphabet) alphabet to explain pronunciation, insted of the english/american rules, I think that english phonetic pronunciation actually makes pronunciation more obscure for non native english speakers (at least I can directly check out that phonetic symbol directly in my language).

[masterdaorin]

I agree Witness. Not sure how the IPA alphabet system works, though. Plus, as I stated above, I'm not sure the canon language "rules" necessarily follow their own rules... lol.

I would like to keep it as close to the canon sources as possible, however.

I've already done some work regarding this, but I could stop and start over if a group effort is involved. Maybe we could divide things into the five cultural groups? Plus, I was only thinking of the place names, to start with... and maybe the most common words, like ajazada (for example, although that one seems like it doesn't need a pronunciation guide). We probably should be thorough with the canon material, on the other hand, as well.

What's your native language? I really only need help with mostly the Brecht, Khinasi, and Vos place names, and maybe a few Rjurik words. I'm pretty confident with my Anuirean place names...

I do think that there should be some sort of consensus on "how the native speakers say it"... while still completely agreeing with Sorontar and Witness that, naturally, there would be different variations "in-world" by the various cultures of Cerilia.

That way, for example, when I say tighmaevril, everyone playing the game knows what I'm talking about...

I'm mostly just curious now about how everyone else has been pronouncing these words, and comparing it to how our group has been all these years... lol.

[masterdaorin]

I think that a pronunciation guide, even as simple as an entry inside every realm page, would be a wonderful thing. And I would love to help if possible.

You still interested?

[Witness3]

You still interested?

Sure!

IPA, like Esperanto, is a phonetic alphabet. This means 1 symbol = 1 sound, no exception, and a symbol's sound does not change according to nearby symbols. In wikipedia there is usually the IPA with a tooltip with example on each symbol. I don't know if it is possibile to do here, I will dig into it. Here is a good start. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA/English)

I'm italian, unfortunately my language and culture was excluded from Cerilia (<rant>AS NOTHING INTERESTING HAPPENED IN ITALY BETWEEN MIDDLE AGES AND RENAISSANCE, YOU KNOW</rant>, sorry, off topic! :P).


I'm mostly just curious now about how everyone else has been pronouncing these words, and comparing it to how our group has been all these years... lol.

My group speaks anuirean as it was latin/english mix. So, diphtongs such as ae, ei, ui, ou, etc. are turned into 1 vowel. 'C' are 'K' , like in archaic roman (not the exact name), or 's' so Cuiraécen becomes something like 'KIRKàKEN' or 'Kuiràkn' wich sounds simila to 'Kraken', with the last consonant spelled out. Nesirie Is pronounced as it was italian, with each vowel defined.

For brecht we go to plain dutch-like sounds, rjurik as norse, khinasi as arabic with italian sounds, with the exception of 'j' sounding like spanish j in 'jefe'. Vos, we pronounce it as russian-like, so Rhlzev becomes /rʣev/ . It's probably wrong, and a real east european should look into it probably.

[masterdaorin]

Sure!
...
My group speaks anuirean as it was latin/english mix. So, diphtongs such as ae, ei, ui, ou, etc. are turned into 1 vowel. 'C' are 'K' , like in archaic roman (not the exact name), or 's' so Cuiraécen becomes something like 'KIRKàKEN' or 'Kuiràkn' wich sounds simila to 'Kraken', with the last consonant spelled out. Nesirie Is pronounced as it was italian, with each vowel defined.

For brecht we go to plain dutch-like sounds, rjurik as norse, khinasi as arabic with italian sounds, with the exception of 'j' sounding like spanish j in 'jefe'. Vos, we pronounce it as russian-like, so Rhlzev becomes /rʣev/ . It's probably wrong, and a real east european should look into it probably.

Cool, it's interesting to see how others play. I've always treated most of the Southern Coast of Anuire (along with Avanil) with an Italian bent to the typical Anuirean baseline culture. Likewise, other regions of Cerilia have similar European/African/Asian cultures attached to them in my game.

That would be great if we could get others who are native speakers involved, but that's probably not going to happen, unfortunately.

The IPA looks like it might be too complicated to utilize with a standard keyboard. How do I type the D3 symbol correctly (for instance)? And, looking at that, it doesn't look like a sound... not sure it would be a popular choice for some people to then use the document...

If we are to do this, we should probably use a simple agreed upon table, like the cardsheet for the Anuirean language in the boxed set, and attach that to the pronunciation document that we will post here. Also, since this is the official BR website, we should stick with the already established canon word pronunciations - which would necessitate other words following the same pronunciation guidelines, generally speaking (for Anuirean words, that is).

And I'm not even sure where to start on some words... Dzhl, for instance. LoL.

Still want to try something like that...?

It'd be great if we had a linguist help us a little... ;)

[Sorontar]

> It'd be great if we had a linguist help us a little...

LOL, I presume you are suggesting me. While I have the training and profession, phonetics unfortunately is not really my area.

I am happy to advise and help guide the community's efforts but as we have discussed on Discord, there will be a certain level of false generality in any phonetic list we create, due to regional variance within the "native speakers", but having something is better than nothing.

For instance, we could decide that the Vos pronounce Vosgaard like vus+guard or voos+gaad (depending on whether you are north or south) but the Anuireans pronounce it like vos+guide, but the Brecht call it voz+gid. The Khinasi may call it fas+grunt and the Rjurik may call it volk+gud. (Who knows what the different elven or dwarven or orog communities call it). Now I have made these all up on the spur of the moment and how they are written may not clearly link to how they are pronounced (https://www.hrtwarming.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/2132.jpg anyone).

What I am saying is that if you want to try and design a pronunciation guide, you need to set your limits - do you really care about being consistent in how elements of names are pronounced? Do you care about how different regions would pronounce the same thing? Do you care how different regions would write the same thing?

You can start with linking a language to a known Terran language, like Brecht to German or Dutch or Belgian Flemish or Alsatian. If so, you then need to work out how you do that linkage, and for that we need a "native speaker" of the Terran language who can tell us how they would pronounce the word.

Sorontar

[masterdaorin]

> It'd be great if we had a linguist help us a little...

LOL, I presume you are suggesting me. While I have the training and profession, phonetics unfortunately is not really my area.

Sorontar

:) Yes, I was.

Hmmm... I wasn't thinking of an *in-game* pronunciation guide; perhaps I wasn't clear. I was more aiming for a "Cardsheet #1" for ALL of Cerilia's cultures, rather than just Anuirean pronunciations... so that when I say to a BR player one place name, for example, everyone who plays the game knows what I'm talking about.

It's easy when it's written - we all have the maps, and can read the place name. Speaking it, however, is another matter... lol. I'm not so much interested in how a Baruk-Azhik dwarf talks as compared to a Daikhur Zhigun dwarf talks - that should be left to each individual gaming group to personalize.

I was aiming for a guide that the BR community can have so that we know how to pronounce certain made-up words in the canon material... that's what I was thinking.

[Witness3]

The IPA looks like it might be too complicated to utilize with a standard keyboard. How do I type the D3 symbol correctly (for instance)? And, looking at that, it doesn't look like a sound... not sure it would be a popular choice for some people to then use the document...


Actually, I just copy & paste from the wiki, as they are unicode fonts. But that's ok, we have to start somewhere, even if it is with plain english sounds.



If we are to do this, we should probably use a simple agreed upon table, like the cardsheet for the Anuirean language in the boxed set, and attach that to the pronunciation document that we will post here. Also, since this is the official BR website, we should stick with the already established canon word pronunciations - which would necessitate other words following the same pronunciation guidelines, generally speaking (for Anuirean words, that is).


Well, i was going to suggest to copy/paste the language cheatsheet, but that's already been done (http://www.birthright.net/forums/showwiki.php?title=Languages#Anuirean). So we may start with a pronunciation list for each Anuirean realm/province, and some of the most important or harder names, such as Berouine or '''Elaenadaere Dhoelachnal'''. I have a SWF file with Baker pronouncing each realm, I think, but I cannot manage to open it anymore.



What I am saying is that if you want to try and design a pronunciation guide, you need to set your limits - do you really care about being consistent in how elements of names are pronounced? Do you care about how different regions would pronounce the same thing? Do you care how different regions would write the same thing?


No, we should not. That level of deep would be too much. Altough one can give small references, just as they do on major cerilian languages, but nothing more.



You can start with linking a language to a known Terran language, like Brecht to German or Dutch or Belgian Flemish or Alsatian. If so, you then need to work out how you do that linkage, and for that we need a "native speaker" of the Terran language who can tell us how they would pronounce the word.


Totally agree with you on this. And this kinda stops any dream on expanding BR language, as I don't see any other person interested in this and my native language is basically useless.

[masterdaorin]

Actually, I just copy & paste from the wiki, as they are unicode fonts. But that's ok, we have to start somewhere, even if it is with plain english sounds.

Yes, that I completely agree with. And we can copy the base language pronunciation guides from real world languages for the fantasy base languages that we settle on.


Well, i was going to suggest to copy/paste the language cheatsheet, but that's already been done (http://www.birthright.net/forums/showwiki.php?title=Languages#Anuirean). So we may start with a pronunciation list for each Anuirean realm/province, and some of the most important or harder names, such as Berouine or '''Elaenadaere Dhoelachnal'''. I have a SWF file with Baker pronouncing each realm, I think, but I cannot manage to open it anymore.

I can still open them, but they are only for most of the Anuirean realms, not any others. Hence, my problem. And the copy/paste the language cheatsheet is what I'm aiming for - we have the Anuirean, now lets do the other languages...

So, if we're going to do this properly, we should start by agreeing on the base language for the cultures of Cerilia.

What I find really interesting, for example - Elvish seems to be based on Welsh, like Anuirean does. Very interesting indeed, to me. This seems to say, to me, that the Anuireans and the Elves were as thick as thieves at the very beginning of humanity's relationship with the elves, so much so that the Anuireans adopted the elven alphabet and much of their language... (not so for the other human cultures...)

Alas, for some silly reason, the game designers only made that relationship last for roughly two generations. Not much time to justify a complete language change for the Anuireans... but, meh, c'est la vie. It is what it is...

So, here goes - my initial take on the language roots regarding the cultures of Cerilia... feel free to discuss, ponder, and add your own input...

Anuirean = English (but also Celtic/Welsh English - we have this documented)
Andu = Anglo-Saxon
Basarji (Khinasi) = Farsi* evolved into...?
Lurech (Brecht) = German (Lurech) evolved into Dutch (Brecht)?
Masetian = Greek ("old") evolved into Latin ("modern")?
Rhandel (Rjurik) = Norwegian/Swedish?* (Rhandel) evolved into...?
Vos = Russian* evolved into...?
Elves = Celtic/Welsh
Dwarves = Scottish* (possible), probably evolving from Welsh (Elvish)
Halflings = Esperanto*, evolved into various Cerilian dialects.

These are just base language starting points, something to play with... I'm totally open for differences of opinion... For example, I've always liked the idea that the halflings are a gypsy folk, and so that sort of language might mix very well with their Brecht area roots... that might just present a problem, somewhat, of course, because most of the Halfling proper names and place names are the most English-sounding of all the words in BR... lol. How do we reconcile that... hmmm... any linguists here, your thoughts? :)

The * languages are clearly evolved from various regional dialects, judging from some of the place names. Thus, I think it's safe for us to use various different real-world languages to mish-mash into the final language product. Thus, for example, Basarji can be a mixture of Farsi, Arabic, Turkish, Egyptian, etc., depending on the area in Cerilia it is.

Side Note: Sorontar, why did you settle on the name "Cellwair" for the halflings and their language? Where did you get that? Just curious...

[Fizz]

Side Note: Sorontar, why did you settle on the name "Cellwair" for the halflings and their language? Where did you get that? Just curious...

I had asked about that a while back. See here:
http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?28814-Cellwair&highlight=cellwair

It seems no one knows, but everyone is ok with it. Heh.

-Fizz

[Fizz]

Anuirean = English (but also Celtic/Welsh English - we have this documented)
Andu = Anglo-Saxon
Basarji (Khinasi) = Farsi* evolved into...?
Lurech (Brecht) = German (Lurech) evolved into Dutch (Brecht)?
Masetian = Greek ("old") evolved into Latin ("modern")?
Rhandel (Rjurik) = Norwegian/Swedish?* (Rhandel) evolved into...?
Vos = Russian* evolved into...?
Elves = Celtic/Welsh
Dwarves = Scottish* (possible), probably evolving from Welsh (Elvish)
Halflings = Esperanto*, evolved into various Cerilian dialects.


I like most of these, but i have two thoughts.

For Basarji, i envision them being more Moorish than Persian. So i think their language would more like Mozarabic.

For Halflings, i don't know that they have their own language. Most halflings live among other cultures. The Burrows is an exception, and being so close to Brechtur, i figured it'd be a variant of Low Brecht.

-Fizz

[Sorontar]

An old, but maybe relevant, discussions
- http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?22181-Languages-of-Anuire
- http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?27035-Languages

No cellwair but plenty of discussion about the halfling languages.

I would take cellwair as the old language that they spoke at the time of the big move from the Shadow World, so it known by few, but the term may still be used to describe the community's language in general, which could be a dialect of Brecht, but also to represent the community. It and other "local" terms may be still around, derived from the original language.

Sorontar

[masterdaorin]

I like most of these, but i have two thoughts.

For Basarji, i envision them being more Moorish than Persian. So i think their language would more like Mozarabic.

Yes, there does seem to be Moorish inclinations in some of the Khinasi references; although my vote would be to limit this Moorish cultural influence to Elinie and the Chimaeron.

At any rate, I could go with that, but what language is "Mozarabic"? We need a base real-world language to start from... and then sprinkle in other languages to fill in the gaps in the letter pronunciations. Suggestions?


For Halflings, i don't know that they have their own language. Most halflings live among other cultures. The Burrows is an exception, and being so close to Brechtur, i figured it'd be a variant of Low Brecht.

-Fizz

I agree (about modern halflings). But halflings would have had spoken a language, whatever it was, despite the game/designer's apparent oversight. The question is, what is it?

Presumably, they spoke Fey, the language that many creatures in the Faerie World (now hybridized into the Shadow World) speak. Of course, they could have had their own language too. So, we'll call it Halfling. But what does it sound like? We'd need a real-world language to work from.

But I don't think we'd need to worry about that, because the only Cerilian halflings that would speak it are likely the Itave, and perhaps a few traditional isolated family groups or secret societies in areas of halfling control... which is currently only the Burrows. And, I suspect, they would be heavily influenced by their Brecht and Khinasi neighbours.

Unfortunately, the halflings also have, in all of the canon material that I know of, the most English-sounding of all names/places... so, what to do about that?

My first instinct would be to say that the halflings, when they migrated, all started within Anuire. But the source material doesn't seem to support that. I suspect that, en masse, they wandered about until groups of them settled in certain areas... Tuarhievel has a sizeable population, for example... but most ended up in the area now called the Burrows.

My preference has always been that they were gypsies, in a way, until most got tired of wandering, and settled closest to the humans that they could communicate with most easily, which were the Brechts... What is the language that the gypsy folk speak? A dialect of Romanian?

The dwarves also present a problem, btw...

[masterdaorin]

It's amazing how language has such a huge influence on things, huh?

Now it has got me thinking about migration patterns of these cultural groups, and now how some of the BR history is a little wonky...

I've got some ideas about this, but it... deviates... from the canon material a little bit...

I've just created a rough "cultural" map for Cerilia, and put my first inclinations regarding the different real-world equivalent cultures that might exist therein on it. It seems to work more-or-less well, with a few caveats...

[Side Note]: Sorontar, is Gaelic derived from the Celtic language? I suspect the dwarves speak a form of Gaelic... (my "Scottish" reference above should have been "Gaelic")...

[Fizz]

Yes, there does seem to be Moorish inclinations in some of the Khinasi references; although my vote would be to limit this Moorish cultural influence to Elinie and the Chimaeron.

At any rate, I could go with that, but what language is "Mozarabic"? We need a base real-world language to start from... and then sprinkle in other languages to fill in the gaps in the letter pronunciations. Suggestions?


I am no expert, but as i understand things, it was the language of Moorish Spain, ultimately replaced by Spanish and Arabic.


I agree (about modern halflings). But halflings would have had spoken a language, whatever it was, despite the game/designer's apparent oversight. The question is, what is it?


Before they came to Cerilia, yes, but i wonder since they essentially abandoned it for other cultures. Perhaps it only exists among halfling scholars now.



Unfortunately, the halflings also have, in all of the canon material that I know of, the most English-sounding of all names/places... so, what to do about that?


In that case, maybe we can model Halfling off of English. :) You had written english for Anuire, but based on typical Anuirean names and sounds, english might not be the best match. So we free it up for the halflings. Since we do have some language rules for Anuirean, we may not even need an analog for it.


The dwarves also present a problem, btw...

I think a form of Gaelic works for the dwarves. The elves and dwarves have occupied Cerilia longer than anyone, so they may have had infleunced one another over millenia. Plus, i have problems roleplaying a dwarf with anything but a scottish accent. :)

-Fizz

[Fizz]

In that case, maybe we can model Halfling off of English. :) You had written english for Anuire, but based on typical Anuirean names and sounds, english might not be the best match. So we free it up for the halflings. Since we do have some language rules for Anuirean, we may not even need an analog for it.


Following up on this, Rich Baker once described Anuirean as a made-up language of his own, or at least an attempt to have consistent-sounding names. And he always thought of it as Euro-Mediterranean in sound. He considered Anuire an amalgam of medieval England, the Roman empire, and Gondor.

So i think we need not be bound with english as a guideline for Anuirean. We can give english to the Halflings.


-Fizz

[masterdaorin]

I am no expert, but as i understand things, it was the language of Moorish Spain, ultimately replaced by Spanish and Arabic.

I agree. However, I'm not sure using Spanish as a base language would be the best fit for the Basarji language, since it's very Romanesque, for lack of a better word. Hence, why I favored Farsi. Not sure about Arabic, either, though I'd probably lean more towards that than Spanish or Farsi. A lot of the words I was Google Translating were coming up as closest to Turkish or some other language, however... Arabic really hasn't come up yet...

Hmmm... maybe we'll have to make a list of the place names and see which language comes up the most, and go with that...

It's pretty clear that the game designers just picked and made up words that sounded about right, and plopped them in without thinking about how that messes with all sorts of things, logically speaking, like people migrations and language patterns... heh.


Before they came to Cerilia, yes, but i wonder since they essentially abandoned it for other cultures. Perhaps it only exists among halfling scholars now.

Oh, that does seem to be the case. In fact, I would make the argument, based on the lack of a language in the canon material, as that is playing to the idea that the halflings forsook their native language entirely. Shunned it, in a way, due to them wanting nothing to do with whatever caused them to leave the Fey World in the first place.

My thoughts on this is that the Shadow Lord frightened them so much, that they abandoned their old way of life in order to live life on This Side without any of the dangers that their old way of doing things presented.

Naturally, they didn't count on Deismaar ruining things... now, the Shadow is creeping back over into This Side, threatening things again. Too scary to think about, for those halflings that are more aware of the dangers that the Other Side now presents...

In short, the halflings are a key race in this campaign setting - more than most people have given them credit for, I'll wager... :)


In that case, maybe we can model Halfling off of English. :) You had written english for Anuire, but based on typical Anuirean names and sounds, english might not be the best match. So we free it up for the halflings. Since we do have some language rules for Anuirean, we may not even need an analog for it.

I'd say halflings don't need their own language now. But, to have complete language coverage for the game, we probably should come up with Old Halfling, whatever that is. As I think I mentioned above, though, this would mostly be an esoteric language, like Masetian and Andu; 99.9% of halflings speak the language of the Big Folk they live with (the majority of which would be Low Brecht, I should think, as that's where the largest concentration of halflings in Cerilia live).

In the same vein, I'm willing to argue that Vos should have an ancient version too... what Vorynn's people spoke before they were converted by Azrai into the "harsh" language that it is today... But we don't need to cover that here... just the "modern" version.


I think a form of Gaelic works for the dwarves. The elves and dwarves have occupied Cerilia longer than anyone, so they may have had infleunced one another over millenia. Plus, i have problems roleplaying a dwarf with anything but a scottish accent. :)

Lol, me too.

And that ties in with what I was saying above. I actually think now, looking at the history of Cerilia, that when the dwarves first emerged from the depths of the earth, they were dominated by the elves, and, much like the Andu, began to incorporate Elvish into their language to the same extent. Then they realized very quickly that the elven version of co-existing meant "you are not like us, and are less than us"... and so they retreated back into the mountains and their language changed into what it is today.

(Which, btw, makes a strong argument for Goblin and Orog also being heavily influenced by Elvish, considering that they were the longest of any of these "lesser" races being within the company of the elves). Makes you go hmmm... doesn't it? :) Now I'm beginning to think that goblins and orogs speak a form of "pidgin elvish"...! (meaning, pidgin Welsh).

And, that also returns us back to the halflings. I think they have so much "English" in their current language because they, like the Andu with the elves, seem to have adopted Andu as their mother tongue when they first migrated to Cerilia. Hence, Anglo-Saxon morphing into English. They are what the Andu would have been without the elven influence. Lol. I'm willing to bet that the "Anuirean" halfling clans, much like their Big Folk brethren, have historically looked down on "those other" halfling clans (i.e. the Burrows) as going too "modern" with their Low Brecht (as opposed to Andu) language and mannerisms...

I think that would also dove-tail nicely with the idea that Anuirean has changed from Welsh to English - most Anuirean nobles have given up the "old (i.e. Welsh)" way of speaking for the "new (the way the commoners have spoken Anuirean (i.e. English)" way of speaking. A renaissance of language, if you will... and a nod to real-life history...

Like I said, thinking about language has really got me thinking about other aspects within the game.

I love Birthright. :D

[masterdaorin]

Following up on this, Rich Baker once described Anuirean as a made-up language of his own, or at least an attempt to have consistent-sounding names. And he always thought of it as Euro-Mediterranean in sound. He considered Anuire an amalgam of medieval England, the Roman empire, and Gondor.

So i think we need not be bound with english as a guideline for Anuirean. We can give english to the Halflings.


-Fizz

It is a made up language, for the most part, based on what I know about its real-world inspiration languages.

I think it's fair to say, however, that English is the same as Anuirean. I mean, just to keep things simple. If, for no other reason, than to distinguish it from Elvish (the elven language should be "pure" Welsh, as it were).

[Fizz]

It is a made up language, for the most part, based on what I know about its real-world inspiration languages.

I think it's fair to say, however, that English is the same as Anuirean. I mean, just to keep things simple. If, for no other reason, than to distinguish it from Elvish (the elven language should be "pure" Welsh, as it were).

Well, the initial premise of the thread was to discuss real-world languates as a guide for pronounciation. What we know of Anuirean pronounciaton rules are not the same and english. So that's why i'm not sure that we'd want to use english as the basis.

There is no confusing welsh and english in sound. Elvish seems to follow several (if not all) of the rules of welsh prononciation, so i don't think we'll ever confuse the two. Heh.

-Fizz

[masterdaorin]

Well, the initial premise of the thread was to discuss real-world languates as a guide for pronounciation. What we know of Anuirean pronounciaton rules are not the same and english. So that's why i'm not sure that we'd want to use english as the basis.

There is no confusing welsh and english in sound. Elvish seems to follow several (if not all) of the rules of welsh prononciation, so i don't think we'll ever confuse the two. Heh.

-Fizz

Correct, I agree that we should use the Welsh translations rules for Anuirean. That's already established.

That being said, there a lot of non-Welsh names in Anuire. My proposed fix for that is that Welsh/Anuirean is "old" Anuirean. The more "modern" version of Anuirean is turning into English; Elvish is still pure Welsh. I think it would thus help to establish the difference between the Anuirean and Elvish languages.

That's neither here nor there, though - just a side thought. :) We'll keep Anuirean as Welsh for the purposes of this thread/site.

[masterdaorin]

Anyone want to add/change/respond with more thoughts...? Otherwise, I'll hit the ground running with what has been suggested here...

[Fizz]

Correct, I agree that we should use the Welsh translations rules for Anuirean. That's already established.


No, I'm not saying that at all. Welsh can be used as a basis for Elvish. I'm not an expert in Welsh, but all the pronounciations used throughout various sources seem to be consistent with Welsh. (As far as i can tell, Elvish is Welsh.)

I'm saying that we don't need to use English (or anything else) as a guideline for Anuirean. The original boxed set already provided rules for Anuirean pronounciation, and it doesn't sound particularly like English and certainly not like Welsh.



That being said, there a lot of non-Welsh names in Anuire.


Are there any Welsh names in Anuire? I can't think of any. I daresay that all names in Anuire are non-Welsh (with the exception of Elven realms).


That's neither here nor there, though - just a side thought. :) We'll keep Anuirean as Welsh for the purposes of this thread/site.

I'm a bit confused from where this comes, because earlier you were talking about using English as the guide for Anuirean. "English is the same as Anuirean" you said in post #27. So i don't know how it has suddenly become Welsh.


-FIzz

[Witness3]

Woah, 15+ posts since last time I checked, you guys sure are committed to this.

I think there is one premise about BR cultures that we should not forget, it's that they are always hybrids between two or more cultures. I think language should reflect that In a way , including pronunciation.

Anuire is a hybrid between medieval france and england, Rjuriks are a hybrid between celts and norse, vos are a hybrid between rus and mongols, Basarij to me were always like mediterranean islamic states or islamic spain, if you can call it that, with a hint of egyptian (the whole masetian issue). Brecht range from Holland to Poland, so basically *any* kind of germanic.

I actually bend anuirean a bit on closed 'e' , less vibrating 'r' and move accents to make, i.e. , House Volarae sounds like Volàr' or Voləɹ, wich sounds really french to me.

As for other cultures, I decided in my campaign it was a good occasion for being multi-cultural, adding more 'foreign' to other species. Enough with northen europe! :p My halflings speak portoguese/spanish, Mierese speaks esperanto, Dwarves are actually hebrew/yiddish in both culture aestethich and language, As for the elves I still can't settle on something, I guess they should be welsh, but they seems too close to anuirean by then.

[Sorontar]

I have lots to respond to here.

Let's start with Anuirean. It is canon that the old Anuirean language is that of the Andu. For that reason, it is known as Andu. We have various languages on Terra that we may consider equivalent - Latin, Old Greek or even Sanskrit. Andu is not widely used but there will probably be some rituals and names that still hark back to the old tongue in the same way that Latin is the traditional language of the Roman Catholic Church, and thus medieval ceremonies, even if the local language was spoken the rest of the time. One of the reasons that the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles and Beowulf were so notable to English literature was that they were not written in Latin. They were in the Saxon language (mainly West Saxon area, or Wessex, dialect I believe), which was derived from the language of Saxony which is now in modern Germany (the Saxon forms of "regular" verbs became the English "irregular" verbs like see/saw/seen and has/have/had).

Welsh is one of the modern Celtic tongues, like Scot Gaelic, Irish Gaelic, Breton, and their cousins Cornish and Manx. The same family of languages has the languages of the Gauls and other Italic-Celtic langues as its predecessor. They are all part of the Indo-European languages.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:IndoEuropeanTree.svg#/media/File:IndoEuropeanTree.svg

Welsh, like all languages has its own way of various combinations of letters. "wyn" or "ll" in Welsh is not always pronounced the same way as an English speaker may pronounce it. Welsh placenames (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_toponymy) are sometimes known for being long descriptive names, e.g., Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysilio gogogoch (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysilio gogogoch), but this is not always so. Yes, some of the placenames in Anuire do look Welsh-like, especially in their use of "oe" and "gh" but a lot of them don't as well.

Farsi is modern Persian, and is spoken in Iran and Afghanistan. After the Sept 11 attack, Western countries became much more interested in it.

IIRC western science has a lot to thank medieval Arab speakers for because a lot of the Ancient Greek writings were translated into Arabic then made their way into Europe via the Moors through the Iberian Penisula, I think via one of the Holy Roman Emperors translating them into Latin or the language of their court (medieval French?).

The gypsies of Romani have various variations of their tongues or variations of the local language. I believe there is even a Gypsy Welsh - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_language

Modern French, Italian , Spanish, Romanian, and Portuguese are all Romance languages, with Latin being one of their predecessors. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_languages

Anyway, that hopefully gives you some idea of how those Terran languages sit with respect to each other. Sanskrit is the oldest. Latin is the traditional old language of the church and bureaucracy in parts of Europe.

Sorontar

[Fizz]

Anuire is a hybrid between medieval france and england,

Rich Baker once described it as an amalgam of medieval England, the Roman Empire, and Gondor. He felt Anuirean sounded southern mediterranean



Rjuriks are a hybrid between celts and norse, vos are a hybrid between rus and mongols, Basarij to me were always like mediterranean islamic states or islamic spain, if you can call it that, with a hint of egyptian (the whole masetian issue). Brecht range from Holland to Poland, so basically *any* kind of germanic.

Well, the Basarji had no connection to the Masetians. The Khinasi are primarily of Basarji origin with a hint of the Masetians, who i always thought were meant to be an analog for Greece. I thought i read that somewhere... i'll see if i can find it.



As for other cultures, I decided in my campaign it was a good occasion for being multi-cultural, adding more 'foreign' to other species. Enough with northen europe! :p My halflings speak portoguese/spanish, Mierese speaks esperanto, Dwarves are actually hebrew/yiddish in both culture aestethich and language,


I don't know if i could roleplay a Hebrew dwarf... :) If we look at dwarven place names (ie, Baruk-Azhik), what language do they most closely resemble? Anything?


As for the elves I still can't settle on something, I guess they should be welsh, but they seems too close to anuirean by then.

I think the elves are the easiest, since all their names and pronounciation are clearly welsh. The rules for Anuirean are nothing like Welsh.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Welsh_pronunciation

Another interesting thought: the elves are historically highly resistant to the newer races on the continent, and combined with being immortal, their language has probably changed the least over the centuries.

-Fizz

[masterdaorin]

Now we're getting somewhere! :)


I don't know if i could roleplay a Hebrew dwarf... :) If we look at dwarven place names (ie, Baruk-Azhik), what language do they most closely resemble? Anything?

Exactly! That's what I'm aiming to solve with this thread/endeavour? Anyone want to take a stab at it?


I think the elves are the easiest, since all their names and pronounciation are clearly welsh. The rules for Anuirean are nothing like Welsh.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Welsh_pronunciation

Another interesting thought: the elves are historically highly resistant to the newer races on the continent, and combined with being immortal, their language has probably changed the least over the centuries.

-Fizz

I agree - elvish remains unchanged.

Well, in regards to Anuirean, Welsh/not Welsh, it doesn't matter. My intention is not to rewrite Anuirean.

I was thinking out loud with all my other posts, and just making some guesses and suppositions. Why? Because, like the real-world, I choose to believe (excepting the elves and the other ancient races) that the world of Cerilia isn't static, and even languages change over time. There should also be a logical progression in that change. For example, how to explain all of the "non-Anuirean-like" names in Anuire, like 'Swordwraith', 'Bayview', 'Sunken Lands', when we also have 'Caer Callin' and 'Ghoere', for example? Sounds like they come from an English-speaking background to me... so, why? Perhaps the Anuireans have changed their language over time...?

That's all I was getting at in the above posts, plus trying to encourage people to add their own thoughts to this thread, so that we get moving forward on this task.

(The above wasn't directed at anybody here, btw, just making my position clear here).

To be clear:

I want to have available for all BR players/DMs a "Cardsheet #1" for all the important languages within Cerilia. We have the Anuirean, so lets do the others. I think it's a worthwhile task to do. Specifically, at the very least, we should have a pronunciation guide for:

Brecht
Khinasi
Rjurik
Vos

The elves seemed to be covered by the Anuirean cardsheet - at least, as far as I'm concerned. But, if everyone else disagrees, then lets make one for elvish too.

The halfling language doesn't need one, because it's esoteric now; they speak one of the above languages. The same applies to Andu, Masetian, and the other ancient languages. That being said, however, if we want to be completist, we should probably take a stab at those ancient languages too.

The dwarven language should probably get its own treatment as well, since it pretty well demands it.

To do all of that, I believe that we need to start with a base real-world language to work from. That way, we can start applying it to the place names and see if they fit. Those that don't, we should see which languages they most closely resemble, and see if we can't mash something together in order to complete a "Cardsheet #1" for these other languages.

At least then, we can all agree on how to pronounce "Dzhl"... :D

[Fizz]

Now we're getting somewhere! :)
For example, how to explain all of the "non-Anuirean-like" names in Anuire, like 'Swordwraith', 'Bayview', 'Sunken Lands', when we also have 'Caer Callin' and 'Ghoere', for example? Sounds like they come from an English-speaking background to me... so, why? Perhaps the Anuireans have changed their language over time...?


For names like "Bayview", "Sunken Lands", etc, i think those could just be the result of translation to English. If an Anuirean were to refer to Bayview in the Anuirean language, it wouldn't sound the way it does in English. It would be whatever the translation for "Bay View" is in Anuirean. This is an example of a name that's the result of two regular nouns. Conversely, a name like "Elinie", is a proper name; there is no noun associated with that word otherwise, thus there is no English translation for us English-speaking players. :)

For other names, they could just be historically based. The city of Chicago's name comes from a Miami-Illinois word (meaning "stinky onion" or somesuch), and has just stuck around ever since. For your example, "Caer" means "wall" in Welsh, so maybe the name came from a rock formation that looked like a wall, and the arriving setllers took the word from the elves... who knows? As for Ghoere, that could be a pure Anuirean word or name; nothing about it defies the rules of Anuirean.



I want to have available for all BR players/DMs a "Cardsheet #1" for all the important languages within Cerilia. We have the Anuirean, so lets do the others. I think it's a worthwhile task to do. Specifically, at the very least, we should have a pronunciation guide for:

Brecht
Khinasi
Rjurik
Vos


Fortunately, the Cerilian Languages card from the original boxed set gives us some guidance.

Anuirean pronounciation is spelled out, so we won't need a real-world comparator for it.

The card states that Brecht is heavy germanic and follows germanic rules. So German seems like the logical choice for them. Dutch could work too (since Brectur is based on the Hanseatic League).

Basarji is stated as being Arabic both in sound and script, but with a strong Mediterranean flavour. Also, it notes that Basarji has changed little over the centuries. So clearly Arabic for them.

There is no description of how Rjuven sounds. However, it is stated that the Rjurik borrowed the Anuirean alphabet. A person literate in Anuirean can pronounce Rjuven written words, but cannot understand the syntax or meaning. That suggests it sounds similar to Anuirean.

Similarly, there is no description for Vos sounds. The Vos are based on dark ages Slavic countries, so any of the Slavic languages: Russian, Ukrainian, Estonian, Latvian, Lithuanian, maybe a bit of Finnish, would work as a guideline.


Elves use Welsh, that's easy. Also of note, the core BR rulebook notes that Elven is the oldest of the languages and is remarkably unchanged from the original.

Now, we have nothing about Karamhul (dwarven). I'm not sure about this one. As i've stated before, my dwarves have always been Scottish. (But i've always thought Klingon would work too...) While dwarves and elves have shared the continent for many millenia, they have done so largely in isolation (one above ground, another below). So the languages could be very different. I agree, we probably have plenty of freedom with it, and maybe it should be something new.

Similarly, i'm not sure what to do about Goblin, though i've always thought goblinoid languages would be harsh-sounding, lots of hard letters and few soft, like their primary deity's name, Kartathok.


At least then, we can all agree on how to pronounce "Dzhl"... :D

I believe the Dzh combination is a slavic thing. To pronounce, start as though you're going to pronounce an english D, then quickly transition to a cross between an english soft G (as in the colour rouge) and soft Z. Then just add a quick L after it. That may not be perfect, but i think it's close.


-Fizz

[Osprey]

Elves use Welsh, that's easy. Also of note, the core BR rulebook notes that Elven is the oldest of the languages and is remarkably unchanged from the original.

I always thought the Sidhelien were as much or even more Gaelic language-based along with Welsh (I am not fully fluent in Gaelic, but reasonably familiar with it from language classes and Gaelic folklore). I see the Welsh folklore influence on some of the Shadow World elements and elven culture, but one could still as easily say they are Irish (so many similarities but with many differences too).

Let's look at the personal names:

The following are example names for elven characters.
==Male==
Áedán, Áed, Ailbhe, Ailill, Ailín, Aingael, Aislin, Aithne, Allanleigh (al-LAN-lay), Ardghal, Barreight, Biorach, Bláthnat, Brígh, Brónach, Bruibevann, Braedonnal, Byrnwbhie (BUR-noo-vee), Cadgwogawn, Caelcormac, Caellach, Cairbre, Calraath, Caoilfhionn, Caoimhín, Caolán, Cathair, Cathál, Cathán, Cearbhall, Ceincorinn, Cian, Ciardha, Colmán, Conall, Conan, Conchobhar, Conláed, Conleth, Connal, Conrí, Conannelaght (koh-NAN-ne-lach), Corvwyn, Comhghán, Cormac, Cuán, Cuchulainn, Daegandal, Deaglán, Dáire, Daithí, Dálaigh, Damháin, Dara, Darochinn, Delwynndwn (del-WIN-doon), Derwyndal, Deoradháin, Devlyn, Donnachaidh, Donnabhain, Dubhghall (doy-al), Dubhghlas, Eachann, Eagandigh, Eamonnal, Eidirsceoil, Erghwen, Fiellnn, Finn, Fionnbharr, Gannelganwn (gan-nel-gan-NOON), Garradh, Glyngrean, Lachlan, Lynn, Merwyndin, Morgan, Niall (NYE-ull), Rhannoch, Rhuobhe (ROVE), Rhaal, Rhys, Riordan, Seabharinn (she-VAR-in), Siele, Sliebheinn (slay-VEEN), Talerdigh, Tuall.
==Female==
Ailien, Alliena, Ardenna, Ashleight, Audreeana, Breeana, Brigyte, Briona, Bronwyn, Caitlannagh (kate-LAN-nay), Camrynnyd, Caileight, Dannagh, Deirdre, Duana, Erinn, Fiona, Finnegwyn, Glynna, Gwenyth, Gwenneigr (gwen-NEER), Iyaell, Leeana, Llewellyn, Mawrmaval (MOOR-ma-val), Maeghan, Maebhe, Mhiellwynn, Niobhe, Nysneirdre (nis-NEER-drey), Rhiannon, Rhondal, Rhuann, Shielynn, Sinead (she-NAYD), Siobhan (sheh-VAWN), Tuanala.

I am not nearly as proficient with Welsh, but it seems like a broad mix of both Gaelic and Welsh in here (roughly 50/50 or so?). I've also noted many of the elven realms have Welsh-looking names.

So I'm gonna go with "freely mixing Welsh and Gaelic language to make the Sidhelien language."

[Fizz]

I always thought the Sidhelien were as much or even more Gaelic language-based along with Welsh (I am not fully fluent in Gaelic, but reasonably familiar with it from language classes and Gaelic folklore). I see the Welsh folklore influence on some of the Shadow World elements and elven culture, but one could still as easily say they are Irish (so many similarities but with many differences too).

I am not nearly as proficient with Welsh, but it seems like a broad mix of both Gaelic and Welsh in here (roughly 50/50 or so?). I've also noted many of the elven realms have Welsh-looking names.

So I'm gonna go with "freely mixing Welsh and Gaelic language to make the Sidhelien language."

I don't know Gaelic at all. My thoughts about elvish being based on Welsh are based solely on the pronounciation guides used throughout the BR books. (For example, w is an "oo" sound, etc.) But if you're hearing / seeing Gaelic too, then i have no objection in using both as a guideline for Sidhelien. ( I presume Gaelic and Welsh are related anyways- probably via a common ancestor? )

-Fizz

[Sorontar]

Yes, there are a lot of Irish names in there - Cian (a God; son of a High King), Cuchulainn (part of the name of a legendary hero), Sinead (a singer), etc etc, though some are missing accents above vowels.

Yes, Welsh and (Irish) Gaelic are part of the Celtic language subtree. Scots Gaelic is derived from Gaelic. There is also Breton (from Brittany in France), Manx (the Isle of Man), Cornish (from Cornwell).

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/86/Celtic_language_family_tree.svg/1200px-Celtic_language_family_tree.svg.png

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Celtic_language_family_tree.svg#/media/File:Celtic_language_family_tree.svg

CC by-SA 4.0 (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0)
Link (https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=54381751)

Sorontar

[masterdaorin]

Yes, there are a lot of Irish names in there - Cian (a God; son of a High King), Cuchulainn (part of the name of a legendary hero), Sinead (a singer), etc etc, though some are missing accents above vowels.

Sorontar

Yes, I noticed that some are missing accents above the vowels in Anuirean, as well, and probably a few of the Basarji and Brecht names.

It seems clear that all of these human languages are a compilation of various real-world languages. Makes it hard to figure this task out, in some ways, but I suppose that gives us more freedom to just make stuff up to fit what we have.

For example, whatever Andu was, it seems clear that the Andu people were heavily influenced by their elven neighbors when they first arrived. They adopted the elvish alphabet, have names like Cwlldon, Brynnor, Maesil, the use of the word Caer, etc. - all Celtic type words, name their children with elvish proper names (or corruptions thereof), and it seems clear to me that they have very heavy Celtic/Gaelic influences on their language tree since their migration from Aduria.

Considering that Rich Baker has Anuire as an amalgamation of various ideas that include Medieval England, and I'm more convinced now that I've started to look at the idea of language in the BR setting, that I'm sure that it was meant to follow similar patterns to the English language. Anglo-Saxon mixes with the native Celtic languages to get something new.

That is, I now believe that Andu (Anglo-Saxon) comes in, mixes with the native Elvish (Celtic/Gaelic) language and, over time, has become Anuirean. And, like the real-world example above, I'm willing to bet that Anuirean itself has evolved over time as well (into what we now think of as "Ye Olde English")*. The same applies to Brecht (High/Low). And Rjuven (heavily influenced by Anuirean and Brecht). And, despite the statement to the contrary on the Cardsheet, I'm willing to bet that Basarji has been influenced by their location and population mixes as well (the only explanation I can think of that applies to the obviously different language roots that we have with Khinasi place/proper names - particularly influenced by the Masetian and Vos languages, I'm willing to argue).

Masetian is obviously meant to refer to Greek (and probably Latin), and Vos is slavic languages (I just haven't figured out which ones predominate yet).

Andu as being (Anglo-)Saxon makes sense to me now, considered that that ancient language evolved along with the Rhandel (the ancient Brecht) and the Lurech (the ancient Rjuven) languages... all Germanic/Scandinavian roots next to each other in Aduria.

That's what I'm going with, anyway.

And my (former) concept of the Goblin language has been blow away by this... it's like I've stumbled upon a whole new level to BR! :D

* Yes, Fizz, I considered that the obviously non-Anuirean-looking names are just "translations" into English, but then, why didn't they do that for the other place names in Cerilia... or only did it for some names, and not others? Just saying... I think Anuirean is more like English now... it has just kept its old celtic roots, without the influence of Christianity or Latin to give us more much "English-sounding" proper names...

[Fizz]

* Yes, Fizz, I considered that the obviously non-Anuirean-looking names are just "translations" into English, but then, why didn't they do that for the other place names in Cerilia... or only did it for some names, and not others? Just saying...

To answer you question, for the same reason that names vary in the real world. The name "Chicago" comes from a native american word. But other cities' names come from regular words, like "Newport". Each has its own unique origin history.

Or, the creators may have wanted some names to have a clear origin that we english speakers immediately understand. In other cases, maybe they wanted a non-english name in order to evoke a specific feeling. Or perhaps, more likely, they thought it sounded cool.

There is no standard for how places get named, in the real world or fantasy. It's not like the migrants arrived and said "Ok everyone, as we explore the continent, let's use the following guidelines for naming places..."

My point is, i don't think it needs to be over-thought, because there are a hundreds of reasons how name origins can differ. Having a variety in names and their origins makes things interesting.

-Fizz

[Doyle]

As a 'real world reference', I have been involved in (without doing any of the actual work), the "Naming rules for places in Victoria" which attempts to add some sort of structure and cultural sensitivity to places names in this state in Australia. place names here are a mix of cultures, but primarily either Anglo or First Nation peoples. The people who did the actual work on this canvassed a lot of areas where a place name was unusual and found that no-one living there knew why it was called that. For one where they found the location name translated to something vulgar (see what you get for angering the culture that is displaced), the locals were shocked, but on reflection decided not to have the name changed out of respect for the previous culture.
English speaking culture has been here for less than 250 years and an accurate map of the state shows a similar level of diversity in naming as the Anuire map.

Regardless of if the name on the Cerilian map was added because it sounded cool, or was a well thought out amalgamation of cultures to hint at a part of the history of a town or province, I'm happy for my players and NPC's to clash over how a place name is pronounced.

I'm not arguing with any of the (excellent) points above, but I'm suggesting not to get too hung up on where a few place names in an area go against the suggested RW cultural naming rules. Six different human cultures displaced the locals and empire boundaries changed over the next few thousand years - it should be a little messy.

[masterdaorin]

Or, the creators may have wanted some names to have a clear origin that we english speakers immediately understand. In other cases, maybe they wanted a non-english name in order to evoke a specific feeling. Or perhaps, more likely, they thought it sounded cool.

...

My point is, i don't think it needs to be over-thought, because there are a hundreds of reasons how name origins can differ. Having a variety in names and their origins makes things interesting.

-Fizz

Completely agree you and Doyle. What you just said actually supports my supposition that the languages of Cerilia have not been static, and have evolved over time.

Take, for example, the proper name: Liliene Swordwraith. It seems to have both a "traditional" Anuirean name with a "non-traditional" Anuirean name. For whatever reason. Whether you believe "Liliene" is the former, or the latter, is only relevant when pondering the matter for its own sake.

The mostly likely "real-world" answer, of course, is that the creators didn't have the time to completely make up names, so they just made stuff up on the fly and put in what they thought sounded cool.

My point is, that works to our advantage for the purposes of this thread. Anyway, I'm not going to beat it to death. I was merely musing aloud with all my above theories. I need to start somewhere, with something, regarding how to tackle obviously divergent names.

And, on a side note, doesn't this thread's premise make you really start to question the assumed assumptions regarding language within the BR world?

I'm telling you, Goblin... the elves taught them "civilization"... wouldn't language be one of the core elements of that?

Makes you go "hmmm..." Like I said, I love BR... :)

My thoughts on dwarven civilization have been affected as well... (like, where did the dwarves first learn metallurgy...? The elves perhaps...? Just saying...).

[Osprey]

Overall I love this analysis of the language families mixing and evolving - great deconstruction work!

There was 1 bit at the end I wondered about:


Andu as being (Anglo-)Saxon makes sense to me now, considered that that ancient language evolved along with the Rhandel (the ancient Brecht) and the Lurech (the ancient Rjuven) languages... all Germanic/Scandinavian roots next to each other in Aduria.

Are you using the Germanic language relations to decide that these 3 tribes were neighbors in Aduria? Or did you have another source from the material saying this?

It's certainly possible, and would explain why multiple tribes migrate around the same time, recognizing that neighboring tribes influence each other through trade, marriage, etc.

But pressure from Azrai's empire expanding seems to be the canonical reason we are given for their migrations, and that empire could have been expanding very rapidly to cause multiple flights from Aduria in a relatively short period.

[Fizz]

Completely agree you and Doyle. What you just said actually supports my supposition that the languages of Cerilia have not been static, and have evolved over time.

I don't think anyone disagreed that languages are always evolving as the nations / demographics do. I was only responding your question in post #40, where you asked why some things were translated and others were not. You seemed to be suggesting that all naming conventions in a region should be consistent. But all's good. :)


Take, for example, the proper name: Liliene Swordwraith. It seems to have both a "traditional" Anuirean name with a "non-traditional" Anuirean name. For whatever reason. Whether you believe "Liliene" is the former, or the latter, is only relevant when pondering the matter for its own sake.

The mostly likely "real-world" answer, of course, is that the creators didn't have the time to completely make up names, so they just made stuff up on the fly and put in what they thought sounded cool.

"Swordwraith" sounds cool, so that might have been one where they decided that putting into english really helped evoke the flavour of this character in a way that a translation of "sword" and "wraith" could not have to us english speakers.

But i agree, timing undoubtably played a role in these decisions too. Writers have deadlines.



I'm telling you, Goblin... the elves taught them "civilization"... wouldn't language be one of the core elements of that?


What "civilization" entails is entirely vague. It certainly may have had an influence. But the goblins could have had their own language before they were taught civilization. Then, as they rebelled against the elves over the centuries, the goblins may have deliberately scoured many of the elven influences out of pure defiance. So now goblinoid is its own unique language. We're dealing with thousands of years of history, so anything is plausible.

The few canon goblin words we have (such as "Kartathok") seem radically different from the Welsh/Gaelic-based language we know elvish to be (at least to my ear).



Makes you go "hmmm..." Like I said, I love BR... :)


Certainly no disagreement here. :)



My thoughts on dwarven civilization have been affected as well... (like, where did the dwarves first learn metallurgy...? The elves perhaps...? Just saying...).

Per the Chronicle of Cerilia (Dragon #241), the dwarves first emerged from the ground about 15,000 years ago, but then retreated. There is no mention of the dwarves needing to be taught anything. It is also stated that for most of their history the elves and dwarves just left each other alone. So given that the dwarves have always been an underground species, i think they would have developed metallurgy on their own. It'd have been required to be living underground in the first place. Just my thought...

I think i lean towards more diversity in the languages due to the vast time spans involved- lots of time for multiple languages to evolve and diverge from one another.


-Fizz

[masterdaorin]

There was 1 bit at the end I wondered about:

Are you using the Germanic language relations to decide that these 3 tribes were neighbors in Aduria? Or did you have another source from the material saying this?

It's certainly possible, and would explain why multiple tribes migrate around the same time, recognizing that neighboring tribes influence each other through trade, marriage, etc.

But pressure from Azrai's empire expanding seems to be the canonical reason we are given for their migrations, and that empire could have been expanding very rapidly to cause multiple flights from Aduria in a relatively short period.

Well, both, actually. Germanic relations as well as the core canon migration material.

In the absence of any other input from the community here in another thread, I'm going to have to use Ian Hoskins' work regarding Aduria, however. No sense creating something whole cloth when most of the community here has kept this as the definitive Aduria material.

For my part, it makes sense. These tribes lived on Aduria, most likely in (relatively) close proximity to each other, and so would, in Aebrynis' pre-history, have had some kind of cultural/language ties.

At the very least, I think that the creators were deliberately trying to evoke real-world comparisons when they developed all these aspects regarding this fantasy world. Unfortunately, as happens when you are brainstorming when under a deadline, things just get mish-mashed together without pondering the greater context that such things have on the whole.

I mean, take the one simple facet that is this thread's subject: language has a *huge* impact on a culture's make-up and development. Now that I'm actually putting some thought into this subject after all these years playing BR, I've had a seismic shift in some sense regarding how the continent of Cerilia "works"... !

It's strange and wonderful at the same time. I'll elaborate a little further in responding to Fizz's latest questions...

[masterdaorin]

I don't think anyone disagreed that languages are always evolving as the nations / demographics do. I was only responding your question in post #40, where you asked why some things were translated and others were not. You seemed to be suggesting that all naming conventions in a region should be consistent. But all's good. :)

Well, I suppose that I should have also mentioned in post #40 that, as I have been combing though all of the regional sourcebooks, I have noticed that Anuire is also the only one that has names with these seemingly dual language roots. My apologies for not being more thorough.

I've noticed that because I've just finished creating a spreadsheet that lists all of the names in all of the BR sourcebooks - it has almost 900 names from all of these materials. I may have missed one though, so if you want to press me, I'll go through the entire document and double check the above statement that I just made is, indeed, fact.

As such, if the creators' intention was to "invoke" certain translations in favor of language realism, why didn't they do that for the other four human cultures?

I am now of the opinion that, and I'm sure rather without meaning to, the creators have indicated to us that the Anuirean culture is more "base-line" (i.e. English and English language) than what is actually indicated to us via the Cardsheet #1 language sheet.

Now, I already agree with you Fizz, that whether that means that they were always this way, or have evolved over time, is a matter of debate. I'm choosing, now, in light of my recent newfound enlightenment regarding language in BR, to believe that it is a result of the latter, rather than the former.


What "civilization" entails is entirely vague. It certainly may have had an influence. But the goblins could have had their own language before they were taught civilization. Then, as they rebelled against the elves over the centuries, the goblins may have deliberately scoured many of the elven influences out of pure defiance. So now goblinoid is its own unique language. We're dealing with thousands of years of history, so anything is plausible.

The few canon goblin words we have (such as "Kartathok") seem radically different from the Welsh/Gaelic-based language we know elvish to be (at least to my ear).

Oh, I'm 100% positive now that it did have an influence. Our real-life examples from (even just recent) history are replete with how civilizations that have invaded or taken over, and that have tried to "civilized" one race, involves language among nearly every other aspect of the dominated race's identity.

Our own country, Fizz, is but one example.

And, said race has never been completely "civilized", of course, but always kept something of their previous cultural practices.


Per the Chronicle of Cerilia (Dragon #241), the dwarves first emerged from the ground about 15,000 years ago, but then retreated. There is no mention of the dwarves needing to be taught anything. It is also stated that for most of their history the elves and dwarves just left each other alone. So given that the dwarves have always been an underground species, i think they would have developed metallurgy on their own. It'd have been required to be living underground in the first place. Just my thought...

I think i lean towards more diversity in the languages due to the vast time spans involved- lots of time for multiple languages to evolve and diverge from one another.

Here are my thoughts on dwarven (and goblin) interactions with the elves - and, note, that this has come about only because I recently had a thought about how language works in Cerilia...

The dwarves emerged from their caves under their main mountain in Khurin-Azur (I'm choosing to believe that Khurin-Azur is the birthplace of dwarven culture - but that's another thread). They were primitive. They had first contact with the elves when they saw that *more* mountains were out there. And everything was good.

There were, initially, peaceful relations. The elves learned some stuff from the dwarves (i.e. basic mining techniques, different kinds of metals, etc.) and, in turn, saw opportunity to help their "primitive" new friends (i.e. we've found out a better way to smelt this kind of metal - e.g. probably bronze/iron, but perhaps others, like mithral).

But lots of elves found those "dirty savages" quite crude, and rather too primitive for their refined tastes. Certain elements gained hold in the elven circles of power, and began to exploit the dwarves. And then others desired to bring them "civilization", in order to counteract the first element (they wished to "help" the dwarves rather than merely exploit them).

The dwarves didn't like all of this fussing and concern over them and, knowing that the elves didn't like the mountains, chose to retreat back into their caves and not be bothered anymore. I'm sure there was some bloodshed involved. Would explain the "Tolkien-esque" prevailing sentiment that seems to permeate all D&D products regarding relations between dwarves and elves... anyway, I digress.

Fast forward six thousand years.

Goblins and orogs begin to emerge from their mountain cave in the Stonecrowns. They, too, are very primitive. Stone tools, grunts for language, etc.

By then, the elves have had plenty of practice with "civilizing" another race (i.e. the dwarves). This time, the elves want to "do it right", to get it right the first time, so they don't repeat the same mistakes they did with the dwarves and lose them (hey, its useful having someone else to do your laundry and cook your meals, after all... and those darn pixies just don't settle down for any length of time! :D ).

Can we take a page from the Canadian/US/Australian government's playbook, perhaps? :D.

So, the elves say, hey, noble savages, lets help you be better. You are so nasty, living there under the mountain as you are, so lets move you where its better, in the forests. Oh, you can still live *near* the mountains, on the edges of the forests (no, we don't want you mucking up the best parts of the world, that is to say, *in* the forests, where we like to live). So the elves move them all around Cerilia, where they are "better suited" to learn from their move civilized betters (i.e., the elven nations move populations of goblins and orogs around to serve as [menial labor/slaves] for their people).

And: no, we can't understand what you are saying. No, grunts don't count as language. Our language is so much more refined and elegant, wouldn't you agree? (I cannot now escape the thought of goblin butlers, talking in a Queen's English, waiting on elven nobles... but, again, I digress).

They teach them better mining (which they learned from the dwarves), working with iron (which they probably taught the dwarves), etc. etc., etc. But then, one day, some brilliant orog priest has had enough. By now, dwarves have come back out of their mountains, and the goblins and orogs see that life can be different, seeing that the dwarves don't like being bullied by the elves and, by now, have advanced technologically enough that they can hold their own against the elves.

This orog says, hey, Torazan thinks we should be the masters, too. Those dirty dwarves! Even they think they are better than the elves, and us, and squash us under their boot too! No, way!

So, this orog teaches rebellion to the other goblin slaves. Having learned from their elven masters well, they, in turn, enslave the goblins.

Then a brilliant goblin priest says, hey, we don't have to take that, Kartathok says so, and so the goblins rebel against the orogs, and the elves, and the dwarves (but, mostly the elves, and then the orogs afterwards). It culminates in the Humanoid Wars, with the death of King Sidhe Brachaleim, and the rest, as they say, is history.

Orogs, having a renewed sense of identity, revert back to "the old ways". Probably includes language, since the way they have been forced to talk all those centuries is associated with the hated elves.

So, too, with goblin society.

Of course, the above is all a gross over-simplification, because this is a discussion board thread, not a dissertation of Cerilian historical cultural groups. :D But, I hope everyone here catches my drift, as the saying goes... :)

I do wonder now, however, how much of that elven influence still lingers within all three of these cultural groups... sorry, four, if we count the humans...

[masterdaorin]

I don't think anyone disagreed that languages are always evolving as the nations / demographics do. I was only responding your question in post #40, where you asked why some things were translated and others were not. You seemed to be suggesting that all naming conventions in a region should be consistent. But all's good. :)
-Fizz

Also, considering the limited timeframe span of recent Cerilian history, and the fact that these language groups are limited (if we are to take as fact that there really is only five human language groups in Cerilia), that there necessarily has to be *some* consistency within each language itself.

Don't get me wrong, I want there to be more individuality - I'm of the opinion that there should be more language barriers, not less. But that's not what we have - at least, according to the rules of the game's design. Gamers don't seem to want to struggle with language barriers, by and large, or at least that seems to be the design philosophy in the rules of D&D, including the latest edition.

So, if you speak Basarji, for example, you can be understood all across the region, and with others who speak it. I don't think it should be this way, mind you, but that's what it is. It does make sense, of course, limiting it, even though that isn't realistic. Likewise, there has to be an in-game explanation for this very fact. The questions are, why, and how? That's what I'm hoping, in part, to solve with this thread.

I just chalk up these variations as "minor dialects". So, I would say to my players, "This person is speaking in an Ariyan dialect of Basarji, as you remember from your time spent in the City of Ariya", as some flavor text when introducing people to the players.

But we still need to know the answers to those two questions, if we are to create a Cardsheet #1 for these languages... The Anuirean language has received the most complete explanation so far... incomplete as it is... the other languages, not so much...

Like, for example, I'm beginning to dispute the Arabic influences of Basarji... it seems to be... a real hodgepodge of other languages... we'll see... haven't gotten to that language yet...

[Fizz]

As such, if the creators' intention was to "invoke" certain translations in favor of language realism, why didn't they do that for the other four human cultures?


Well, they did. In Rjurik, you have the realms of Giantdowns and Realm of the White Witch. In Brechtur you have the cities of Blackgate, Fellport, the province of Cornelius' Landing. In Khinasi you have have the province of Green Mountains (in Suiriene), Fingers of Ayan (in Khourane). And in Vosgaard you have provinces of Akar Bluffs, and the realm of Battle Fens and The Icemarch.

That list is by no means exhaustive- i have no doubt i've missed others. But english does get used elsewhere. And even for the elves and dwarves (Thorn Throne, Fallen Rock, etc). And Anuire may have more specifics than other regions. But Anuire is by no means unique.



I am now of the opinion that, and I'm sure rather without meaning to, the creators have indicated to us that the Anuirean culture is more "base-line" (i.e. English and English language) than what is actually indicated to us via the Cardsheet #1 language sheet.


Anuire is the "default" region, i agree. And i think that's the case because it's the setting that Rich Baker had developed for an early novel of his ("Kingmaker" i think it was to be called). So Anuire probably had more details already "ready to go" when it became part of Birthright. And the other regions only gained names with the expansions, so different authors / timelines, etc.



Here are my thoughts on dwarven (and goblin) interactions with the elves - and, note, that this has come about only because I recently had a thought about how language works in Cerilia...


Your envisionment of the dwarves is vastly different from mine. Here's mine: the dwarves are creatures of stone, very elemental in nature. So i think they may have existed well before the elves ever did. It is stated they emerged from the "depths of the earth". To me that implies they were down there a long time. They didn't "discover" the surface until much later.



The dwarves .... were primitive. They had first contact with the elves when they saw that *more* mountains were out there. And everything was good.
There were, initially, peaceful relations. The elves learned some stuff from the dwarves (i.e. basic mining techniques, different kinds of metals, etc.) and, in turn, saw opportunity to help their "primitive" new friends (i.e. we've found out a better way to smelt this kind of metal - e.g. probably bronze/iron, but perhaps others, like mithral).


The dwarves must have had more advanced mining techniques already in order to have worked their way from the "depths of the earth" to the surface. (How else to dig through hard rock?) That requires an advanced civilization. So they weren't primitive. In some ways they may have been more advanced than the elves.

Now elves, it is stated often, are arrogant with a superiority complex, so they may have perceived dwarves as brutes (they do everyone). But dwarves are proud and untrusting, so i don't see the dwarves as accepting any form of elven supreriority.

Further, mining is not consistent with elven proclivity of living in harmony with nature. I don't see the elves improving mining techniques because you need to have an established industry to learn those sorts of things, and such an industry would be anathema to the elves. (A civilization that lives in the trees will never invent the microchip. :) )

Your reasons for the animosity of the species are reasonable, but i think the dwarves came out of the mountains quite civilized already.



This orog says, hey, Torazan thinks we should be the masters, too. Those dirty dwarves! Even they think they are better than the elves, and us, and squash us under their boot too! No, way!
...
Then a brilliant goblin priest says, hey, we don't have to take that, Kartathok says so, and so the goblins rebel against the orogs, and the elves, and the dwarves (but, mostly the elves, and then the orogs afterwards).


The orogs and goblins have gods. The elves never have. So if the goblins were so primitive when the elves taught them civilization, how did the goblins have and retain their own religiosity? For that reason, the goblins must already have had their own civiliization and language before the influence of the elves.

The orogs were never surface dwellers (so far as i recall). I see them as developing parallel to the dwarves.

Of course, what you do in your own game is your business. But that's how i see the prehistory. :)


-Fizz

[Fizz]

So, if you speak Basarji, for example, you can be understood all across the region, and with others who speak it. I don't think it should be this way, mind you, but that's what it is. It does make sense, of course, limiting it, even though that isn't realistic. Likewise, there has to be an in-game explanation for this very fact. The questions are, why, and how? That's what I'm hoping, in part, to solve with this thread.


I don't think this is unrealistic when you consider that the five human languages each have a common starting point (in the not-so-distant past, as you say) of the original tribes. Nothern Khinasi has the same ancestors that southern Khinasi does, and they were never in isolation from one another. So there hasn't been an opportunity for a significant schism of the language. Dialecs sure, but retaining a common core makes sense.

-Fizz

[masterdaorin]

Well, they did. In Rjurik, you have the realms of Giantdowns and Realm of the White Witch. In Brechtur you have the cities of Blackgate, Fellport, the province of Cornelius' Landing. In Khinasi you have have the province of Green Mountains (in Suiriene), Fingers of Ayan (in Khourane). And in Vosgaard you have provinces of Akar Bluffs, and the realm of Battle Fens and The Icemarch.

That list is by no means exhaustive- i have no doubt i've missed others. But english does get used elsewhere. And even for the elves and dwarves (Thorn Throne, Fallen Rock, etc). And Anuire may have more specifics than other regions. But Anuire is by no means unique.

Good point.

We should also note that most of these areas were heavily influenced by Anuire, so... those names have probably become traditional.

Perhaps this gives us a clue as to exactly when Anuirean transitioned from "old" to "modern" version... or perhaps, as you argue, it was always like that.

Perhaps, for example, the elves never had a word in their language for their seat of power... perhaps only Anuireans are concerned with such things... Perhaps the Vos don't give a Brecht's butt about what lies above Rovninodensk... so it's left to Anuirean cartographers to label such things... or maybe its the Royal Cartographer's Society in the Imperial City of Anuire that gave us "that map"... questions, questions...

Which shall we go with...?

[masterdaorin]

Your envisionment of the dwarves is vastly different from mine. Here's mine: the dwarves are creatures of stone, very elemental in nature. So i think they may have existed well before the elves ever did. It is stated they emerged from the "depths of the earth". To me that implies they were down there a long time. They didn't "discover" the surface until much later.

...

The dwarves must have had more advanced mining techniques already in order to have worked their way from the "depths of the earth" to the surface. (How else to dig through hard rock?) That requires an advanced civilization. So they weren't primitive. In some ways they may have been more advanced than the elves.

Now elves, it is stated often, are arrogant with a superiority complex, so they may have perceived dwarves as brutes (they do everyone). But dwarves are proud and untrusting, so i don't see the dwarves as accepting any form of elven supreriority.

Further, mining is not consistent with elven proclivity of living in harmony with nature. I don't see the elves improving mining techniques because you need to have an established industry to learn those sorts of things, and such an industry would be anathema to the elves. (A civilization that lives in the trees will never invent the microchip. :) )

Your reasons for the animosity of the species are reasonable, but i think the dwarves came out of the mountains quite civilized already.

...

The orogs and goblins have gods. The elves never have. So if the goblins were so primitive when the elves taught them civilization, how did the goblins have and retain their own religiosity? For that reason, the goblins must already have had their own civiliization and language before the influence of the elves.

...

Of course, what you do in your own game is your business. But that's how i see the prehistory. :)

I held to those very same conclusions - until recently - when this thread's conundrum popped into my head. Then it got me thinking about my long-held preconceived notions about BR...

All I'll add to this, so as not to derail the thread:

1) All civilizations start from somewhere.

2) I take it for granted that, like Earth, civilizations advance along reasonably expected paths. Of course, this being a fantasy world... but, anyway. No civilization started already advanced. They had to be primitive at some point. This seems to be one of the core ideas of BR... different technological levels...

3) Elves certainly practice mining, I would assume. They need metal for objects. Naturally, being a fantasy world, this might be done in other ways (magic?). On the other hand, I've always felt that elves should be the more primitive culture, but anyway, that's not what we have in BR...

4) Civilizations that interact usually do so that benefits both in some ways (the degree of which is up for debate, of course).

5) It is very hard to erase an entire culture if they aren't wiped out completely. I would say that the goblins/orogs kept elements of their own primitive culture throughout their domination by the elves. These elements then came to the fore when they no longer were controlled by the elves. These elements would, naturally, undergo changes based on the current needs of the individual societies. So, for example, this is why the religion issue never became the bugbear (pardon the pun) that it became for the elves when the humans arrived. The elves probably suppressed the worship of goblin/orog gods?

[Fizz]

Good point.
We should also note that most of these areas were heavily influenced by Anuire, so... those names have probably become traditional.


Hmmm... not sure what you mean. Most of the names i mentioned are no where near Anuire. In particular, Battle Fens and Icemarch are about as far away as you can get from Anuire.



Perhaps, for example, the elves never had a word in their language for their seat of power... perhaps only Anuireans are concerned with such things... Perhaps the Vos don't give a Brecht's butt about what lies above Rovninodensk... so it's left to Anuirean cartographers to label such things... or maybe its the Royal Cartographer's Society in the Imperial City of Anuire that gave us "that map"... questions, questions...

Which shall we go with...?

Well, this is why i think you're overthinking it. I don't think it's something we need to answer. Any of those reasons might apply to any of those cases. I think those details are best left to the DM and their individual games; to be sorted out as (if) needed.

-Fizz

[Fizz]

1) All civilizations start from somewhere.

2) I take it for granted that, like Earth, civilizations advance along reasonably expected paths. Of course, this being a fantasy world... but, anyway. No civilization started already advanced. They had to be primitive at some point. This seems to be one of the core ideas of BR... different technological levels...


Yes, but we don't know the timelines of such. The Chronicle from Dragon #241 says elves emerged from the elements at a time unknown. They may have been "primitive" savages for millions for all we know. More likely it's somehow connected to the schism with the Shadow World (if i remember Blood Spawn correctly).

Also remember that elves are not normal. They are more related to the fey than they are to humanoids. So they may not follow the normal rules of development.

Now, when it says elves taught the goblins and kobolds civilization, one has to determine what that means. I think the most basic level of civilization occurs when living no longer depends on finding food every day. This lets the members pursue things beyond mere survival, because they don't have to worry about their next meal. So the elves may have simply taught the goblins and kobolds farming and husbandry. From that, the goblins could have created their own culture. Perhaps the elves and goblins were akin to the ancient Egyptians and Hebrews.



3) Elves certainly practice mining, I would assume. They need metal for objects. Naturally, being a fantasy world, this might be done in other ways (magic?). On the other hand, I've always felt that elves should be the more primitive culture, but anyway, that's not what we have in BR...


I don't think elves would practice mining. Maybe they might do some surface excavation of an exposed cliff for raw ore and the like, but certainly not to the level of the dwarves. The dwarves come from the ground, and built entire cities and networks underground: think of the Mines of Moria from Fellowship of the Ring- there is no indication the elves are ever capable of that level of mining ability. Heck, maybe the elves didn't even know about mining (or metal) until they learned it from the dwarves.



5) It is very hard to erase an entire culture if they aren't wiped out completely. I would say that the goblins/orogs kept elements of their own primitive culture throughout their domination by the elves.


I know of no reference that says the elves had historical contact with the orogs. Or have you been meaning kobolds in the last few posts?

Having an established religion requires a language. Certainly the goblins didn't learn about Kartathok from the elves. So the goblins must have had their own language first in order to convey their thoughts about Kartathok in the first place. Thus i argue the goblins had their own lanuage before they ever encounted elves. And hence goblin and elven could be entirely different languages with no relation to one another.


-Fizz

[UVAtom]

Love the thread. My first exposure to Birthright was through the novels Greatheart and Iron Throne. Imagine my shock upon being gifted the box set and learning the sidhelien was not pronounced “Sid-hee-lee-an.” I had the box when I was an awkward teenager, but never the players handbook, or really anyone to play with, but I’m playing D&D now, and falling back in love with Abreynis all over again.

One major question- because I’ll never get all the names right, but I really would like to get this one right since he’s the framing device for the whole box set, and the Imperial Chamberlain after all.

How do you pronounce Caliedhe Dosiere?

Thanks!

[Fizz]

One major question- because I’ll never get all the names right, but I really would like to get this one right since he’s the framing device for the whole box set, and the Imperial Chamberlain after all.

How do you pronounce Caliedhe Dosiere?

Welcome to the boards!

I think the correct pronounciation would be:
kal-eeth dah-seer

-Fizz