Why is the Gorgon so powerful?

[prince_dios]

That is to say, besides the fact that the 2E version has him with 300-some HP in a setting where few characters are above level 12 and more HP than some demigods in the BRCS update.

1) He has a complete inability to delegate authority and there's no real economy in his territory. There aren't any guilds or temples run by blooded individuals in his domain.

2) His army has awful morale. He has soldiers from nations that hate each other(Mur-Kilad and Markazor), many mercenary units, and he kills his officers every few years.

Anyways, now that I have your attention, how have you used the Gorgon in your previous campaigns? Has he make unleashed his armies in a bid for the throne, or taken a back seat during the struggle between Avanil and Boeruine? Also, have you ever killed him off? :P

[Cmalik]

He is 1500 plus years old. He has a treasure horde that is vast and beyond comprehension. He uses his very presence (ie RP points accumulated over 1500+ years) to ensure his armies stay compliant.
He is the perfect warrior. None can come close. He is a living God.

[ausrick]

I'm assuming it's his charming personality that keeps his realm together ;) No?

He hasn't really come up much. Most of my campaigns don't get very high level before some how life comes in and we wind up starting another campaign. That being said. Most of my PC's are terrified of him. They know that I don't hesitate to reward stupidity with death (Or Worse). The closest regent to him was Tuarhievel once, and they were quaking in fear every domain turn. "When's the Gorgon going to sweep over our realm???" Even in the last one Aerenwe was worried about how many turns it would take the Gorgon from the time he decided to conquer the world until he arrived at their doorstep. The Regent estimated 2 years of war moves. Maybe I just have Cowardly or untrusting players but the Gorgon, out of every nasty NPC ever in existance, has been their most terrifying nightmare, and I've never lifted a finger. I just smile evily and stay silent on the issue. It's so easy its a let down in a way. I as a DM feel I should have to earn a response from the players, all it took was them looking at the card that came with the original box set, and for the last 10 years and 4 campaigns word of mouth has spread the fear of the Gorgon. New players will ask "whats so bad about this Gorgon" and it is hilarious about how my veteran players start telling campfire stories about how horrible he is. They've blown his power so out of proportion just like that rumor game or telephone. I find it so funny to watch. Its the kind of story peasants would tell in the campaign in one of those towns where everyone shutters their windows and bolts the doors at the first sign of dusk.

I guess I use him to the best effect by not using him. And I am still baffelled by how terrified my PC's are of an NPC they have never met. At the same time I have some Recurring NPC's that are more of an immediate threat and quite capabable of killing players if it wasn't for the villainous cliche flaw of liking to toy with victims. . . Yet my players mostly pay them no mind or even worse go out seeking them so that the PC's can get their rear-ends handed to them again and again. Maybe its vengeance, or maybe surviving a confrontation gives hope, I don't know.

[Danip]

1) He has a complete inability to delegate authority and there's no real economy in his territory. There aren't any guilds or temples run by blooded individuals in his domain.

If you look beyond the box set, several important Lts are outlined(Kiras Earhcore a general/awnie and Tolan a spymaster/guiler/awnie). Kiergard has a vassal ruler, guild, and temple too.


2) His army has awful morale. He has soldiers from nations that hate each other(Mur-Kilad and Markazor), many mercenary units, and he kills his officers every few years.
Not so different from a typical goblin kingdom. Evil sorts need a dictator they fear more than each other. Gorgon fits that role nicely.

The Gorgon is the setting's bogey man. If the DM needs a big stick to keep the players in line, a BBEG is very useful. Just under the power of a God, but more useful because he is of this world. Other regions have similar figures to a lesser extent;white witch, magian, raven, serpent. All are very evil, intelligent, and able to pull the puppet strings of lesser villans/challenges. They have strongholds that would require legendary effort to topple. With seemingly impenatrable protection they work nicely as behind the scenes threats or ever present menaces.

[ausrick]

He's a straight-up evil overlord. I wonder if he has ever said "This is the price of failure" to one of his lieutenants who has failed him and then turned around and slayed an unrelated servant. I know that in my campaign, his fortress in Kal-Saitharak will not have air ducts big enough for a person to crawl through and any of his doomsday artifacts will not have a self-destruct mechanism or be designed in such a way that they are indestructable except for one single flaw. :D

[Mantyluoto]

ive decided that i'm going to use the Gorgon in a similar way right up to the point that Pc has to seek an alliance with him to save all of Cerilia from the Return of Azrai!!!

after 6 games years i have him stirring in the north building troop levels up in preperation for a big push south. My player is concerned and rightly so but then he doesn't know what i do :D

[arlyquino]

I'm extremely curious about the Gorgon as he relates to the game mechanics of the Birthright world.
Let me first say that the campaign that I've been running has been on and, in some cases, very off, for about seven years now. That's a very long time to have progressed so little, but life, other campaigns, and the introduction of 3E D&D complicated this particular one. I also do not play with a number of the game mechanics first introduced in the box set, and then continued with the conversion. Most of the mechanics relate to regency, turns, realm magic, and the system of mass warfare originally put forth. Basically, the campaign is pretty much like any other D&D campaign, just within the Birthright world. The story revolves around Sabastian, a prince of Darian Avan, and the quests he finds placed in front of himself as the continent begins to slide into massive warfare with, yup, the Gorgon.
Sabastian is a paladin, an archetypal knight in shining armor, and the hope of the story arc--unexpected player actions notwithstanding--is a final confrontation between the heroic prince and the Gorgon.
However, given his game statistics, this final encounter appears to me to be almost 100% certain to fail. The Gorgon, for all intents and purposes, IS a god, a demigod more accurately i suppose, but god-like to say the very least. A party of four 20th level characters would have an incredibly difficult time defeating him, especially with the little accurate knowledge they would have of the Gorgon.
Which leads me to the puzzling conclusion...why doesn't the Gorgon himself simply walk through Anuire and conquer the whole damn continent single handedly?
There are many answers to this question, of course, and some of them would even be logical, but looking at it from a purely mechanical point of view, almost nothing human can stand up to the Gorgon, unless we are talking some serious epic level characters. And exactly how many of them exist in Anuire at a given point? More than likely not enough to crowd a doorway. So as a DM looking at stats, I have a hard time figuring out why the Gorgon for so long has sat in his territory just dreaming of total domination and conquest. Add to his depressingly impressive personal stats a massive army with incredibly powerful lieutenants, and you should have a recipe for uncontested victory.
Who would stop him? The two current contenders for the Iron Throne and the most powerful figures in Anuire, Darian Avan and Aeric Boeruine? A quaint thought indeed, but being something like 12th or 13th level, if i'm not mistaken, they wouldn't have a cold beer's chance of survival in a raging frat party.
Does any of this make sense to you all out there? I confess that i've never Dm'd an extremely high level campaign, and have only ever taken a character up to a high level, 18th i believe, once. Like Ausrick, life has always gotten in the way. But I have played and read enough to know that at 20th level you do have numerous options. Even so, against a creature that, for starters, has a free gaze attack each round requiring a DC 58 (58!?) Fortitude save to avoid instant death, i can't see the fight lasting very long. For the characters, i mean. Unless the Gorgon is run as an utter imbecile--i've experienced other dm's do worse with less.
So, to all who have actually run the Gorgon directly, with game mechanics, I'd love to hear exactly how it went. I've already decided that i need to run a gametest fight with the gorgon against some 20th level characters to see how it goes. And again, keep in mind that i don't use the regency rules, so i don't know if that has an effect or not. I hope to use some of the Heroes of Battle structures to help run massive warfare encounters, but the games i play and dm are really not war games, they are roleplaying and storytelling with some rules to help the world along.
sorry for the long thread...and thanks in advance!

[Azrai]

That is to say, besides the fact that the 2E version has him with 300-some HP in a setting where few characters are above level 12 and more HP than some demigods in the BRCS update.

1) He has a complete inability to delegate authority and there's no real economy in his territory. There aren't any guilds or temples run by blooded individuals in his domain.

2) His army has awful morale. He has soldiers from nations that hate each other(Mur-Kilad and Markazor), many mercenary units, and he kills his officers every few years.

Anyways, now that I have your attention, how have you used the Gorgon in your previous campaigns? Has he make unleashed his armies in a bid for the throne, or taken a back seat during the struggle between Avanil and Boeruine? Also, have you ever killed him off? :P


The Gorgon is a bit like Sauron. He rules with fear, might and power. His charming ability gives him strong possibilities.

[ausrick]

Arlyquino, You have a good question. It caused a 30 response thread several months back when someone else asked the same thing. "Why doesn't the Gorgon just roll over the whole world already". You can find it at http://www.birthright.net/showthread.php?t=2672&highlight=gorgonHere is a quote from Irdeggman, one of the developers, summing up some of the possibilities and points of view.


There are a couple of thoughts concerning the Gorgon:


One commonly posted concept is that when Michael Rhoele gave up his bloodline to the land he "trapped" the Gorgon in his own province. One way it fits is there is no "history" of a Gorgon's march (by himself and not his minions) since his encounter with MR, only rumors and fears.


Another possiblity is because other than the NPC regents there are also the Awnshegh ones. They have at best a shaky alliance with the Gorgon. It is very logical that they would throw in with the humans, elves, dwarves, etc. to prevent the Gorgon from turning on them also. There is no one creature in all of Cerilia that can withstand the onslaught of the combined might of all (or at least a majority) of the remaining creatures. I believe that Raesene, being the military genius he is supposed to be, has learned from what happened at Deismaar and is waiting for the appropriate time to take the Iron Throne. {The elves turned on Azrai at the last minute and it was this coordination of enemies (elves and humans) that turned the tide. So he has seen how enemies will work together for a common goal, he doesn't want to be that goal.} That time being when the most chaos is involved, say a large war between Avan and Beorine (spelling) and after neutralization of some of his most powerful brethren (Rhoube, etc.) this hasn't happened yet in the published material and only when the individual games have evolved to that point would it happen, at least IMO.

Another thing to keep in mind, and something that always bothered me about how the setting was designed - is that once the Gorgon is defeated the game is over. What I mean is that, as Osprey pointed out, the original setting (at least in Anuire) is set up to restore the empire and claim the Iron Throne. This is something that has varying effects throughout Cerilia, but is an essential part of Anuirean culture.

The Gorgon was designed to be the biggest and baddest threat in all of Cerilia. With the setting limitations on other powerful creatures (a lack of dragons for example) without moving on to other "undiscovered" continents or the Shadow World, there is just nothing left to provide an outright challenge in a confrontation. There just can't be any "new" Awnsheglien that suddenly pop up that are more powerful than those with True Bloodlines (Gorgon, Rhoube, Spider, etc.) since one can't suddenly gain a true bloodline or develop one via actions (neither in 2nd ed rules nor in the BRCS). The only ways to get a true bloodline was to have been at Deismaar, be a direct descendant of one who was or through investiture. Pretty much all of which would have been documented via historians throughout Cerilia (especially Anuire and Khinasi).

After defeating the Gorgon the only thing left for heroes is to handle the more mundane politicking of rulership. Gosh anyone that defeats (and can prove it) the Gorgon would pretty much be handed the Iron Throne, if not by the chamberlain than by the people.
__________________
Duane Eggert

[prince_dios]

"this hasn't happened yet in the published material and only when the individual games have evolved to that point would it happen, at least IMO."

Speaking of which, I think one of the charming things about Birthright is that there isn't a metaplot, so to speak. The GM is given things that are likely to happen, probably will happen, and the goals of NPCs - but there's no 'canon' storyline. I hope that the new Atlas won't try to advance the plot beyond what the original BR set down, if only for the sake of GMs who are unadventurous or saddled with plot-lawyers.

[prince_dios]

Thank you all for the insights.

I think I'll be using the theory of the Gorgon being stuck in Battlewaite. I don't think I'd like the resulting moralistic "bitter rivals must team up to defeat the true enemy" story, or the possibility of the Gorgon ruling Anuire. I get enough of that with LotR and L5R. :P

My players in the game I just started rule Roesone - and I only plan to extend the campaign up until the point the Barony is toppled, all the players quit, or Ghoere's political and military power is broken and friendlier rulers are installed in Osoerde and Diemed. I really don't see any means of having the Gorgon involved that far south anyways. After that, I'll move things to the Rjurik highlands or narrow the domain choice to West Anuirean domains, like Taeghas or Talinie that should be more challenging.

[arlyquino]

Thanks for the link, Ausrick. It was an interesting read, and it sparked a lot of thought.
As I'd mentioned in my first post, there are many reasons for why the Gorgon hasn't rolled over everything in his path, and the best reasons (i think, at least) are the ones motivated by story, intention, and drama. Partly by tactics, yes, but only somewhat, and not by mechanical means. I've always found the idea of the game mechanics difficult to explain and reconcile with logic and reality at high levels, given the amount of literal power it hands over to individuals. Of course, the odd word out here is 'reality', isn't it? :)
The ideas that sounded the most intriguing to me in that 30 response thread was the idea of the Gorgon farming bloodlines, boredom, the possibility of an achilles heel (physical), and most of all, the possibility of an achilles heel (emotional). In fact, a blending of all of these is possible.
First of, the farming bloodlines idea makes an enormous amount of sense: he wants to be a god, and perhaps the only way he has discovered (or believes) this to be possible is by achieving as much bloodline as possible. So why kill the golden goose? Let the petty humans do all the work for him, building up their bloodlines for him to simply hunt down and siphon off, at his pleasure (literally). A bit at a time, of course. He isn't in any rush. For a logical motive, this is strong, tactical, and brilliant.
Second, boredom. That must be partly true. Few in the world can challenge him at full strength, so perhaps he puts limitations on himself when trying to achieve victories, making this the challenge to overcome. Even failure, under these circumstances, is no more than a lesson learned, like war games. He probably has little fear on the battlefield itself. Certain not from the peons with pikes...As well, as Archangel pointed out in the thread, the tactical victory is as important as the physical victory. He wants to outsmart, not just outpower.
The third, a physical achilles heel, is a great way of focusing the pc actions through quests. Especially for me, as it's the campaign involves a solo player, a paladin, who is not exactly the coldest beer in the fridge--int 10, wis 14. not bad, but not brilliant. The player is similar in some ways; smarter for sure, but loses patience. So focused quests is the way to go, and finding the item or items that can help weaken the Gorgon is a classic storyline.
The last, and as i mentioned, the most important, is the emotional achilles heel. This gives the greatest range of the gorgon's motivations for the DM, and the most intriguing. After all, the greatest obstacles usually come from within. This can also fuel the above three points as well. He wants to be a God, but why? He is bored with constant, easy victories, and why? He has acquired a physical achilles heel; how and why? Evil is a potent force in our world, and by proxy, the fantasy world. But evil for evil's sake is slightly staid, although certainly simpler. The most intriguing villians are the ones that desire goodness, or redemption, even if they aren't necessarily aware of it, and yet, because of themselves, circumstances, manipulations, etc, their path has instead followed the path of darkness.
The Gorgon, for example. Passed over for his younger brother Haelyn. Never given the respect he feels he deserves. Wants to rule, but perhaps more importantly, he wants people to want him to rule. Call it cheesy, called it archetypal, call it whatever you want, but perhaps deep down what the gorgon really wants is to be loved (he would rationalize this as being worshipped, but it could be the same thing.)
Now, i wouldn't just offer the Gorgon a hug. Never that simple...
Thanks to Justinius Exmortis, Osprey, and Irdeggman as well. Excellent posts.

[Thomas_Percy]

What I mean is that, as Osprey pointed out, the original setting (at least in Anuire) is set up to restore the empire and claim the Iron Throne.
Me players made it. There is a king and Anuire is united for +/- 10 years.
But ae emperor is weak, elected, weaker than his vassals (like at medieval Germany), so political play is still possible.

[prince_dios]

"What I mean is that, as Osprey pointed out, the original setting (at least in Anuire) is set up to restore the empire and claim the Iron Throne."

I don't know about that. I mean, "be a conquerer" is one of the selling points of the game. Then again, the back of the box touts the setting as being about kings, when it's really about feudal lords.

I've never felt that the Anuirea setting is about mass-conquest. Sure, it's mentioned that each regent feels he can be the one to unify the empire, but a look at the domains reveal that a majority of them simply want to be left alone: Mhoried, Talinie, Medoere, Aerenwe, Ilien, Tuornen, Elinie, Coerayns.

And of course, conquering an entire realm isn't easy, much less most of the empire. I mean, consider how many levy units and mercenary units could be fielded by a regent willing to hit the ground fighting and empty his treasury.

[Question]

I would definately change the gorgon's stone stare ability.Sorry its insane.Something like a 58 DC fort save to avoid being turned to stone within a arc of 30 feet?

Oh yea an entire unit of knights charging the gorgon(alone) would have most of its members turn to stone and the rest crash into the ones infront that turned to stone.

Imba FTW.

And people complain about the NPCs in forgotten realms, heh.Not even larloch can kill the gorgon 1 on 1.

[ausrick]

a level 30 fighter with 18 con and no fortitude related feats or magic items would have a total fortitude save of 21 (12 base + 4 ability + 5 epic) So at this rate, our fighter would have to gain 36 more levels or some serious feats/magic items before anything other than a natural 20 would save his skin. Evidently entering into melee or point blank range of the gorgon is suicide for anything shy of a level 70 character if I have done my math correctly. I guess this is so hypothetical because by then you should have more than 18 con and atleast something that gives a bonus to your fortitude. . . but still, what about characters who don't have very high fortitude saves or constititution isn't their strong suit. I mean, if the developers want him to be invulnerable to melee that's fine I guess. Maybe one of the developers has some input on the subject.

[irdeggman]

Raesene was suppedly the most powerful fighter in Anuire (an Empire at the time) before he became the Gorgon so it only makes sense this continued on.

[prince_dios]

Raesene was suppedly the most powerful fighter in Anuire (an Empire at the time) before he became the Gorgon so it only makes sense this continued on.

The main contenders for the throne are level 9 and 12. One of the most feared mages on the continent is level 9. I'm fairly certain they could've made the Gorgon a force to be reckoned with giving him epic-level abilities.

[irdeggman]

The main contenders for the throne are level 9 and 12. One of the most feared mages on the continent is level 9. I'm fairly certain they could've made the Gorgon a force to be reckoned with giving him epic-level abilities.

True, but he is really on par with the BR deities as far as power goes, or at least real close. That is the force of bloodlines.

I don't think it was specifically mentioned where in the birth order he fell with Haelyn and Roele, but I always saw the bastard son as being the eldest - which accentuates his hatred since as the eldest he should have been next in line for the throne but as an illegitimate child he was "left out".

That places him age-wise as older (or as old) as the present human deities and pretty much only some (and I say only some) of the elves would be older.

So if you look at him being one step away from being a "major" deity on the human scale - his powers and abilities aren't that far out of whack. IMO it wrong to think of him a merely another ruler - he is definitely much more than that.

A true bloodline is supposed to have something "special" associated with it, IMO.

[graham anderson]

I think the gorgon was mentioned as the eldest but cant be 100% sure.

Look at the powers of some of the others who dont even have a true bloodline , a number of them can grant spells to their followers like a god.

There are quite a few elves mentioned that are older and that is only the mentioned elves making elves one of the few groups with individuals that might be able to stand up to the gorgon for a little while.

[Green Knight]

Yes, Raesene is indeed the elder (bastard) brother of Haelyn and Roele.

I tend to think think that no-one, even someone as powerful as the Gorgon, could ever hope to juts walk around conquering anything on his own. Even personally very powerful regents need an apparatus of government to do their work for them.

So I'm not sure the Gorogn needs to be limited to remaining on his home turf in Battlewaite. The need to keep his domain running would likely eat up almost all of his time. It is after all a HUGE domain, with multiple vassals (not all of which are too happy with their status), numerous races (many of which like infighting as much as the next orc), and a serious trust issue regarding other scions (a problem in a world where successful rulers are scions). Hell, he's even got maintain a very large source network, which neighbors many powerful mage regents. And so on and so on...

So I don't think the Gorgon is literally bound to Battlewaite, but he is bound none the less. Maybe he rouses once evry generation or two, to lead his army on a campaign or something...but for the most part he's locked in his study, reading ducuments and giving orders to (incompetent) underlings...

[Osprey]

a level 30 fighter with 18 con and no fortitude related feats or magic items would have a total fortitude save of 21 (12 base + 4 ability + 5 epic) So at this rate, our fighter would have to gain 36 more levels or some serious feats/magic items before anything other than a natural 20 would save his skin. Evidently entering into melee or point blank range of the gorgon is suicide for anything shy of a level 70 character if I have done my math correctly. I guess this is so hypothetical because by then you should have more than 18 con and atleast something that gives a bonus to your fortitude. . . but still, what about characters who don't have very high fortitude saves or constititution isn't their strong suit. I mean, if the developers want him to be invulnerable to melee that's fine I guess. Maybe one of the developers has some input on the subject.
__________________
Regards,
Ausrick

It wasn't too long after I read the BRCS Gorgon writeup that I figured death ward was a person's only real hope of surviving his death gaze. Then there's his petrifying gaze, of which the only real counter I know is stone to flesh. Can't think of any real defense against that, though, other than pumped-up fortitude saves.

Stacking save bonuses are the only things give your 30th level fighter a chance to make an epic-level fortitude save. Bard songs (Inspire Heroics, +4 morale bonuse to saves), spells (prayer, +1 luck; moment of presience, +20 insight on 1 save; spell resistance; etc), and magic items (cloak of resistance, or another item that grants a resistance bonus to saves; amulet of health).

[Walter]

Osprey wrot:
Then there's his petrifying gaze, of which the only real counter I know is
Quote:
stone to flesh
. Can't think of any real defense against that, though, other than pumped-up fortitude saves.

What about spells like gaze screen 50% immunity.


What everybody should remember is that the Gorgon is nearly a deity, a qusi deity. His goals are a mystery but in Ruins of Impire it is mentioned that he is actually trying to get get the power of Kreisha and Belinik a fuul time job i think.
The question why he has not conquered Anuire is easy to anwer: Who is interested in the wellfare of the Anurians, who initiated the foundation of the Empire and who is strong enough to beat the Gorgon? His halfbrother Haylin succesor of Andurias and Grater Deity.

[Osprey]

The question why he has not conquered Anuire is easy to anwer: Who is interested in the wellfare of the Anurians, who initiated the foundation of the Empire and who is strong enough to beat the Gorgon? His halfbrother Haylin succesor of Andurias and Grater Deity.

I think your response better answers this question:
"Why hasn't the Gorgon ascended to godhood already?"

After Deismaar and the catastrophic death of the old gods, the new generation of gods swore to a pact to never again become as directly involved in the affairs of mortals as their predecessors were. If the Gorgon were to attain true godhood, then Haelyn and his allies (Cuiraecen, Neserie, maybe some of the others, maybe all of the gods) would certainly feel it was their duty to remove Raesene from the mortal realms of Aebrynis.

If the Gorgon is already a deity (even a demigod), then why haven't Haelyn and his buddies stepped in to deal with his rampages already?

Some good food for thought.

Osprey

[irdeggman]

After Deismaar and the catastrophic death of the old gods, the new generation of gods swore to a pact to never again become as directly involved in the affairs of mortals as their predecessors were.
Osprey



Actually the text (in both BRCS and BRRB) is:


Fearing a repetition of Deismaar in any future conflicts, the gods agreed to a universal pact: Never to battle each other in physical form.

And several have directly involved themselves - Ruornil (in Medoere) and the text about Eloéle in the BoP and her "gifts" to followers.

[Walter]

Originally Posted by Osprey:
If the Gorgon is already a deity (even a demigod), then why haven't Haelyn and his buddies stepped in to deal with his rampages already?

He is not a demigod he is a quasi/hero deity. Compare the description of such beeings in deities and Demigods page 25-27 and the stats of The Gorgon in the BRCS-Playtest Page 171/173 he is one, spell resitence, immunities, damage reduction and fire immunity.

BRCS page 35
True bloodlines are unique. Only the greatest heroes of Deismaar, those who were both physically and philosophically closest to the expiring gods, were granted True bloodlines. Only these surviving heroes or their direct heirs through bloodline investiture have True bloodlines. There are believed to be less than a dozen true bloodlines in existence.
All known True bloodlines are currently possessed by powerful awnshegh or ehrshegh. These individuals are near demigods and are rumored to be able to grant a divine connection that allows their followers access to divine magic. Some True scions are rumored to have other divine abilities beyond the ken of most mortals.

The Gorgon is nearly a demigod.

All i wanted to say is that the Gorgon has, in my opinion, other goals than conquer Anuire he is trying to become a real god if it is only demigod. Cerellia has nothing to offer to him, no one could challeche him, nothing is to gain, he alredy is the riches and most powerfull ruler of the world. To reign over Anuire would bring him nothing than trouble. But if he stays in his realm he has enough time searching a way to become a real god and harvest one Bloodline after the other with a little bit of excitement.

PS: A fight against the Gorgon is useless, everythig that could be found in Cerellia even epic-level PC would be death in seconds.

[Master Spaz]

lol
i guess that was the first thing my power hungry players wanted since the first game... i dont know why... lol
But after 7 years of fighting in real time... (crazy gaming) they did
I hear other masters laughing... my Birthright campaign is 460 game long for now 11 years, I definitly had to kill Gorgon if I was to keep my players in...
Then you surely wants to know how;
it took 3 generations of Caraesene from Talinie to kill him; acquiering magical item after each generations...lol crazy
That's the only way to play the death of your ... HEAVY PIECE in Anuire... in a way that the game remain credible.
Then I used Eyeless One as center evil, and after him Diabolysk, the ancient inquisitor of Raesene... (and then after Raven, a secriet society in Muden and even an multiracial apocalyptical doom; honestly we went too far... lol)

And you must kill him in a way, for this is the first peon to play as master to go trough the whole Birthright Campaign; i-e restore the planet to health (destroy the evil force that curse the fea world (the shadow world... you know)
Your real greatest ennemy is Cold Rider... and the losts remaining (go to the lost section)
The cold rider is the key; it is the life force of Azrai imprisonned on the Aebrynis planet. All the villains in the Campaign can be attached in a way to this statement; the white witch... who venere the Rider through Kriesha, Raven, the Losts, etc... You will eventually plan a catastrophic scenario where some illuminated (such as Lativius the Blind) priest of Azrai from Aduria try to raise Azrai from his long sleep... ouf
So dont fear to let go Gorgon; be sure to kill a pc who must restart as heir of the killed PC; and take your time, but kill it...
lol

Birthright is THE game for the real players...

[Walter]

Master Spaz:
lol i guess that was the first thing my power hungry players wanted since the first game... i dont know why... lol
But after 7 years of fighting in real time... (crazy gaming) they did
I hear other masters laughing... my Birthright campaign is 460 game long for now 11 years, I definitly had to kill Gorgon if I was to keep my players in...

Well done, it is ok kill that little Bastard, but only when it is neccesary for the game and it is not over.
You are playing one Birthrigt campaing for 11 Years? And it took seven years to kill him? Wonderfull, thats the way it meant to be played, oh yeah.
I NEVER had a campaing lastig longer than 3Years, you are a lucky man.


BAck to the Gorgon.
He should only be as powerful as a Dm need it. Te Version in the BRCS is the most powerfull i have ever seen, and i have seen over a dozen of Gorgon versions. In my opinion the BRCS Veersion is much to powerfull he never could be beaten in a normal campaing. But other versions can, look at the original in Blood enemies there his is big, strong and evil but beatable, 20th level figther, nothing most can handle but not invincible.
A Dm has every right to kill any PC but he should make it reasonable.


Master Spaz:
So dont fear to let go Gorgon; be sure to kill a pc who must restart as heir of the killed PC; and take your time, but kill it...lol

good idea, i will remember it.


MY players killed the Gorgon, they needed 3 Years and the last of killed it, well not killed it, but imprisoned him with the imprison spell and he let the dragon free, that was not the end of the game but the problem was one player 18level and the rest dead, so we started a new campaign.
PS: The Gorgon was not the Gorgon from BRCS which is, as i wrote before is a quasideity and not beatable for mortals.

[ausrick]

just a funny note, I was flipping through my boxed set the other day getting ready for a gaming session and stumbled on the original cardboard gorgon sheet. That thing lists him as a level 20 fighter and a level 15 wizard, dual classed. Thats enough to make any 2nd ed characters squirm. The funny thing is that certain things capped out in second Edition. Saving throws could ony be soo bad. AC could never be better than -10. Etc. The very nature of 3.5 and epic levels just takes the ceiling off of the Gorgon. Just a funny thought as I was thumbing through papers.

[arlyquino]

ya, i noticed that too, when i was trying to compare the old gorgon to the new one. 20th ftr/15th wiz is pretty powerful in 2ed, but the 3ed changes are definitely through the roof.

[Master Spaz]

yea
really it is funny
my gorgon was even greater
at time of its death, he was slashing 7 attacks in 2 round like...
lol
and had a -12 ca
and i think likes... more than 200 hp lol
F 25 wizard 26


but did your players ever noticed at fighting gorgon with a mirror shield (old jedi trick) lol
it is really comforting to see all the world birthright community I loves you all...

Birthright is THE game for the real players

[ArchScarlettie]

From the original boxed set, first line of the card on the Gorgon: "The Gorgon began life as Raesene, the oldest child of his father, the Lord of the First House of the Andu. From an early age, it seemed clear the he would help to shape the future of Cerilia. However, as a bastard child, the glory and attention went to his two legitmate half-brothers, Haelyn and Roele. Though his outward demeanor never betrayed him, Raesene envied them this attention and coveted it. Nonetheless, he taught them what he knew of swordplay and horsemanship, and his tutoring gave them an excellent grasp of the fundamentals of warfare - fundamentals that would prepare them well and earn them praise."

Consider that one of his brothers ascended to be the heir to Andurias, the Ruler of the Gods; the other to found the greatest human empire ever known in Cerilia. It makes perfect sense of the Gorgon's level of ability. He is not really meant to be defeated. His story, his glory (as it is) has not yet been written down. Think of the heroic levels Michael Reole achieved, the heroic deeds he accomplished, to yet fail to kill the Gorgon. A hero second to none, with a bloodline to rival the Gorgon's.

"Anuireans say the awnshegh harvests bloodlines like a vintner harvests grapes- with great care and deliberation. He helps the scions of an individual line grow ever more powerful, and then subtley encourages them to seek him out. Only a few have provided even modest entertainment, but all have nourished his personal bloodline."

Think of the amount of power the Gorgon would have recieved, had he been able to claim bloodtheft of his brother's (Reole) line. As a True bloodline, with Michael Reole being the last heir to it, the Gorgon would have significantly increased his own bloodline, probably to the point of absorbing enough essence to ascend into Godhood. In a way, the Gorgon doesn't need to conquer the world to get what he wants. He already has it, literally outside his home fortress, where he fought the last Reole. When Michael Reole grounded his bloodline, it took the very thing the Gorgon desired and had planned so long to achieve: his Godhood. Killing a dozen or more scions of Great lines probably would not have near the effect of the bloodtheft of a True line. So the Gorgon waits in home. Why?

Everything he wants he already has, right where he is. All he really needs is a powerful, foolish hero (like Michael Reole) to come to Battlewaite and claim the bloodline of the Reole's - so that he may finally kill that scion and thus claim the line, getting what he desired hundreds of years ago.

Time and time again, he is mentioned as the first, the most powerful, of all of the awnsheghlien, the first to discover bloodtheft. He is in all respects, the heir to Azrai. In the original boxed set, he is mentioned as "keeping in contact with the two new Gods of Evil, Belinik and Kriesha - and envies thier power, but has yet to find a way to take it."

Consider that the Spider, and the Manslayer, were never themselves defeated nor conquered - even when the Reole's ruled an entire empire. Awnsheghlien are meant in many ways to provide the DM with a final, last challenge to present to PC's. Let's remember that the Birthright world, and the regency itself, was centered around the AD&D game, which is based upon adventures. Defeating any major awnshegh could be the focus of an entire campaign, as characters search and find and make artifacts needed to confront "a great evil in the land". In many ways, Awnsheghlien replace the "ancient, big, bad, horribly evil dragon in the cave over the hill."

In summary, the Gorgon is really the last card of the DM in a long campaign. Any storyline or villian can be merely a pawn of the Gorgon, thus continuing the adventure. And after a long, long campaign where the PC's have conquered Anuire, the chamberlain can place a nice, pretty Gold Crown on thier heads and direct them off to the ancestral enemy. After years of gathering forces, artifacts, and heroes by their side, they can go to face a demigod in a final climatic blood challenge, either claiming the line of Reole and becoming the true Emperor, or dying at the hands of it's ancient enemy, and creating, more than likely, a new Azrai.

Just a thought.

[irdeggman]

Pretty good summary.

But IIRC the Spider was the one credited with "discovering" bloodtheft.

[Doyle]

<snip>...
"Anuireans say the awnshegh harvests bloodlines like a vintner harvests grapes- with great care and deliberation. He helps the scions of an individual line grow ever more powerful, and then subtley encourages them to seek him out. Only a few have provided even modest entertainment, but all have nourished his personal bloodline."...
<snip> ... And after a long, long campaign where the PC's have conquered Anuire, the chamberlain can place a nice, pretty Gold Crown on thier heads and direct them off to the ancestral enemy. After years of gathering forces, artifacts, and heroes by their side, they can go to face a demigod in a final climatic blood challenge, either claiming the line of Reole and becoming the true Emperor, or dying at the hands of it's ancient enemy, and creating, more than likely, a new Azrai.

My nasty suspicious mind was at work while reading the above essay and overlaid the thought "the chamberlain sending the Emporer hopeful off to probable slaughter, ... perhaps that's his payment to the Gorgon ... for immortality?... perhaps a virtual empire?..."
A bit of a departure from the canon (the best way to sneak things onto the PC's), but would still work with some of the rumours about his longevity. As chamberlain, Dosiere is second only to the Emporer in political influence - there is no emporer - Dosiere is top of the pile for as long as he can live and thwart any real contenders. Raesene is happy enough where he is, probably does not want the empire to unite against him (the war would send Cerilia back into the dark ages and undo all the schemes and plots he's had running for centuries) and he wants to harvest the best bloodlines. I see a business relationship here!
It could even be slotted into most currently running campaigns; every time the chamberlain has seemd to assist the PCs or asked them a favour, could it not have been part of the grand plan to keep a real contender off the throne and to eventually deliver the lambs to the slaughter?

Just a paranoid thought.;)