Birthright and a game of thrones

[Lundos2]

Hey all,
I'm new to this site, but very familiar with the Birthright campaign setting. I have all the expansions and add ons, even some special ones on the internet. I've always found that this is the best campaign setting ever. However, I've a some problems with the 3.5E and the low magic/high fantasy part of Birthright. I'd like all the magic items to be special and hard to get, as was the idea in the original game setting (before the adventures and expansions). I've found that 'a game of thrones' (aGoT) rpg campaign setting fitts perfectly to Birthright. Not only is social status and influence included, but relative low HP, shock value and effective armour adds to the flavor. I have a problem with the magic system, though. I've tried to make a fireball with 1d4 instead, but its still too powerful. Then I thought about making it only a realm/battle spell, but where's the fun in that? Cure light wounds with 1d4+1 etc. Anybody have any ideas?

Lundos2

[Walter]

Fireball 1d6/level min 5d6 well you will blast away an army with that, i know your problem, cure light wounds give you more hp than an average adult has, big big problem i dont know how to hadle this too.

I have seen several army blasted away by a singel Spellcaster, wand of fireballs is the Birthright equivalent of an Weapon of Mass destruction, you can argue the battle rules are making an Spellcaster not more Powerfull as an charackter of any other class, and battle spells are nothing more than a good missle attack.
Yes, thats all right but what will you do if a charackter attacks an army alone, 50 Fireballs, flying and always invisible, there will be no army left, ten units gone , you need an other Spellcaster of equal power or you will loose every Battle before it has begun.

Help!!

Has anybody an Idea what to do: making the average NPC thougher that he can withstand 2 or more Fireball will make it very difficult for any low level group. or should it be forbitten to do somthing like i mentioned, by a code of behaviour: "no one uses spells that way or it has rwenty Paladins behind him trying to bring the mage to Justice, and for the Regent all the other regents are trying to stopp you. The same Consequensens if you fire a nuke at your enemy today?

Any Ideas?

[Osprey]

IMO, D&D as a mechanical game system is a poor vehicle for a low-fantasy setting, particularly with the magic and magic item system, but also because of the massive gap between low and high-level characters.

My suggestion: if you're serious about a low-magic setting, convert BR into a non-level based system that focuses more on the story and less on stats. I've used the WW Storyteller system for a low-magic fantasy setting before, and it worked very well indeed (though figuring out how to handle magic was kinda' tricky). Ars Magica and Hero Quest also ofer some workable alternatives, too.

Osprey

[prince_dios]

As I see it, if your party's wizard is memorizing more than one fireball, it either means:

1) Birthright is a political setting. A wizard with Clairadience/Clairyvoyance, Suggestion, or Invisibility Sphere could wreck havoc in the political world. Perhaps you're not giving your group a big enough variety of challenges? I mean, I've seen a lot of GMs who run series of unconnected dungeon crawls and complain about how combat-intensive their group is.

2) The player is an idiot.

Also, you could ban fireball(and lightning bolt). The magic in Cerillia has never been flashy, and there are so many neat spells that get neglected in favor of them. :(

[Fizz]

I run a low-HP system myself, and i find that simply dividing all damage caused by magic by 2 works quite fine. Your 5d6 fireball would do 5d6/2 imc. Simple yet effective. If that's not enough, divide by 3, 4, etc.

-Fizz

[irdeggman]

There is a common peception (most of us think it is a misconception) over what it means to be "low magic" in relation to BR. Some see this as meaning low magic (as in spells).

Most of us believe "low magic" actually refers to low number of magic items instead.

There are fewer characters capable of casting "higher magic" due to the bloodline/elven blood prerequisite. But this does not mean they can't cast the higher level spells.

There are cultural issues revolving around spells - most of these were spelled out pretty well in the Book of Magecraft and the BRCS attempted to reproduce these as well.

Pretty much you are not going to see an elf cast a fireball or most any other "fire" descriptor spell.

If you enforce these cultural issues then IMO you will do a lot to put the spells into perspective.

[Azrai]

IMO "low magic" in the Birthright campaigns means that magic is scarce. You will not meet frequently a fireball-wielding-mage or an itemshop in each corner of the world.

That does not mean that there is no powerfull magic in BR. "A Game of Thrones" is not very well balanced and the magic system is broken. Therefore it's not a very good example for perfect 3Ed Birthright rules. I was highly disappointed with the AGOT rules.

[Fizz]

I've never liked the description of `low-magic' for Birthright. The magic in Birthright can be incredibly powerful.

But this isn't the Forgotten Realms where every other character has magical ability. I think a better descriptor for Birthright is `rare-magic'.

-Fizz

[Mantyluoto]

The AgoT RPG is based on the first novel of the same name. In that first Novel "Magic" as such didn't exist as the dragons hadn't hatched. To say the magic system is broken maybe fair but if you are playing the setting in the firmat it was created then you wont need a "Magic System" until the end of A Game of Thrones.

i don't view Birthright as a low magic setting, i mean you have dozens of churches who at some time must create magic items, predominately one shot items such as potions or scrolls, with the occasional permanent magic item and you have several powerful Wizard Regents in the south alone who conceivable can make items when they have time.

Take all that into account and you have a world that is potentially "Magic Rich" yet that in itself is controlled by the DM. In my game my player has only a few items but that is because ive Dm'ed the Forgotten Realms where every Tom, Dick and Harry is an Archmage with 47 wands secreted about their person, so ive seen what magic abuse can do.

Sorry to go off topic.

[Question]

If your FR campaign has so much magic floating around,IMHO you are doing something wrong.The vast majority of adventurers have +1-2 items, a few wands maybe, a few scrolls that are low-med in power.Occasionally theres exceptions but in a standard campaign either its run far enough where your characters are established, fairly famous and successful adventurers, or you screwed up somewhere.

Admittedly i dont know a lot about the FR campaign but if your chars have +5 armors at level 7 or so then theres soemthing wrong.

[irdeggman]

Oh and another issue, in 2nd ed when the term "magic" was used it almost always refered to what 3.5 calls "arcane" magic.

In general the "clerical" magic was not included in discussions of "magic".

[Mantyluoto]

Question pick up any FR product and you'll see a whole host of NPC's wielding an unbelievable amount of Magic and yes your correct you don't know anything about my FR campaign which stopped when my players reached 9th lvl, which in my book is pretty powerful, and not one of them had anything remotely approaching +5 magic.

irdeggman, Magic is Magic whether Arcane or Divine. I've never seperated it other than by saying Divine Magic or Arcane Magic. if you can make something appear from nothing then thats magic.

again i wander.

[ausrick]

When approaching (Fantasy) gaming, or the lack there of, people and campaign settings have usually two different outlooks. I will use the Knight vrs Peasants illustration:



You have one heroic Knight who has strode into town to put down the peasant uprising. There are two ways a DM will typically adjudicate this. High Fantasy = "Come on, he's a Heroic Knight, peasants are level 0 commoners, 100 peasants, 1000, doesn't matter the Knight will whoop them” Low Fantasy = "The 100's of peasants, taking heavy casualties swarm the Knight, Overbearing him and ripping him from the saddle, grappling him to the ground."



Birthright seems to be more of the second sort of setting to me. Add in the idea that most of the pop louses are fearful of magic, and your setting could become quite hazardous to a mage who abuses flashy magics or gets caught abusing magic of any kind.



I might call the cops if I find that my neighbor is making pipe bombs in his basement, so a townsperson might call the city guards if they know their neighborhood wizard is working on his delayed-blast fireball.



Plus there are all sorts of wonderful things you can do if you want to make being a spell caster tougher. One that comes to mind is since magic is more rare, getting the necessary spell reagents and components, especially for higher-level spells, should be increasingly difficult. To buy things that only 0.1% of the population would have a need for without the advent of UPS, FedEx, or DHL could become a pricy proposition.



Plus I like the idea of people being afraid of all mages, no matter the level, not just for what they can do, but what they're rumored to be able to do.



All that said though, damage spells in 3rd Ed. are balanced with Hit Points and Saving throws for a fair survival to death ratio of similar experience levels. If you are using a more lethal combat system and or lower hit points per level, offensive magic will need to be adjusted somewhat, if not for the sake of realism then for the sake of balance.

[Question]

Are you referring to NPCs like elminster?

9th level is med level and generally speaking most seasoned adventurers would be around that range........

[Osprey]

I've never liked the description of `low-magic' for Birthright. The magic in Birthright can be incredibly powerful.

But this isn't the Forgotten Realms where every other character has magical ability. I think a better descriptor for Birthright is `rare-magic'.

-Fizz

And that sums up the majority opinion of posters here at BR.net, I think. :)

[epicsoul]

Low magic for me means tight regulation of magic in all forms - and for those that do practice magic, consider high encouragement to play specialist wizzies - losing 2 schools, with perhaps a "perk" for choosing to remove invocation/evocation, plus the extra spell per level, is enough for most players.

Ultimately, however, if players are going to play BR, and if DMs are going to run it, and they WANT low magic, they have to buy into that philosophy. How so?

Well, honestly, if the players and/or the DM don't want that, then they WILL find a way to not make it low magic... and thereby disrupt the flavour. If there isn't buy-in on both levels, then either some player will ask for either an item-creation feat or fireball spell, or the DM will start placing more and more magic items.

For instance, my current campaign, I have been gifted with 7 players that have chosen to buy in to low magic:
1 Anuirean paladin/fighter of Cuiracaen
1 Khinasi fighter/rogue
1 Anuirean noble/rogue
1 Rjurik fighter/ranger
1 half orog barbarian/rogue
1 Sidhelien fighter/enchanter
1 vos fighter

The party, now 4th-5th level, has exactly one magic item - a magic sword, whose abilities they only know a little of (won't reveal, as I know that one peruses the site), although one character has the Blood history ability - he blew his bardic lore roll.

Note, however, that almost all the characters are non spellcasting - by their own choice. The few times they have encountered magic, they have been terrified... other than the Sidhe. And the player of the Sidhe, she voluntarily opted to exclude invoc/evoc from her schools available.

I am not, by any indication, advocating that this is for everyone. For one, it automatically throws off the CR of every encounter - something I still try to account for. If 3.5 is built on the notion that characters will have a certain amount of items by a certain level, then it DOES affect it. Luckily, I could care less. My players love it, having never played low magic before. Now, magic seems truly fantastic when they do encounter it.

It requires work... and a fair number of extra rules. Game of Thrones is a start - as is any additional house rules or rules from various supplements that you may choose, including creating exceptional quality weapons and items - creating other effects besides a +1 to hit.

[irdeggman]

When approaching (Fantasy) gaming, or the lack there of, people and campaign settings have usually two different outlooks. I will use the Knight vrs Peasants illustration:



You have one heroic Knight who has strode into town to put down the peasant uprising. There are two ways a DM will typically adjudicate this. High Fantasy = "Come on, he's a Heroic Knight, peasants are level 0 commoners, 100 peasants, 1000, doesn't matter the Knight will whoop them” Low Fantasy = "The 100's of peasants, taking heavy casualties swarm the Knight, Overbearing him and ripping him from the saddle, grappling him to the ground."



Birthright seems to be more of the second sort of setting to me. Add in the idea that most of the pop louses are fearful of magic, and your setting could become quite hazardous to a mage who abuses flashy magics or gets caught abusing magic of any kind.

The presence of bloodlines helps to mitigate this and IMO push BR back into your definition of High Fantasy.

A scion due soley to his bloodline (regardless of strength) has a presence that the commoners (those without bloodlines and non-nobility) are forced to respect. Something akin to being touched by a deity such that all those around can "sense" something special about the character, maybe not everything but there is "something" that commands respect and sometimes "awe".

Now a mounted solder without a bloodline, no respect and can be mobbed IMO.

[Fizz]

The presence of bloodlines helps to mitigate this and IMO push BR back into your definition of High Fantasy.

Helps to mitigate, yes, as far as rulership goes. But in an armed conflict between this scion and hundred peasants, i'd still bet on the peasants.

Note i'm referring to a typical scion, not an extreme example like the Gorgon, or even one with one particularly powerful blood ability.

At least that how i envision it in my campaigns.

-Fizz

[Question]

That would strongly depends on whether you want to roll combat based on D&D mechanics, or whether you want to use DM fiat.Most DMs go for the latter in PBEMs as the like(hell some exclude adventures nearly totally, which kills a important flavour of BR IMHO), as its easier for them.

Which would also depend on whether you want to run adventures standard D&D style, or just RP with the setting, and throw rules out of the window.

Fluffwise speaking.......it really depends on the situation.You shouldnt just throw a few hundred NPCs at a PC and say "Oh they outnumber you a lot so you lose".Realistically speaking, if you see a huge, armored fighter, slaughtering a dozen of your townspeople without any effort, you, as a peasant, is highly likely to just run for your goddamn life.......assuming you havent done so in the first place.I just dont see hundreds of villagers attacking professional soldiers just like that.......most people would run out of fear or trying to protect their family. A few might choose to fight but they would be in the vast minority, and would probably be the leadership types, or retired soldiers.

You can demonstrate this principle by taking a sword to a crowded area(assuming you knew how to use it), and attacking people left and right.How many people do you think are you going to try and stop you.....within 2 mins there will be a very large zone around you where nobody will dare to enter, with that zone widening as time passes.

Hundreds of armed guards though, would product the effect you are looking for.

[irdeggman]

Helps to mitigate, yes, as far as rulership goes. But in an armed conflict between this scion and hundred peasants, i'd still bet on the peasants.

Note i'm referring to a typical scion, not an extreme example like the Gorgon, or even one with one particularly powerful blood ability.

At least that how i envision it in my campaigns.

-Fizz

Ahh but I wasn't refering to blood abilities but to having a bloodline itself.

IMO merely having a bloodline sets the character apart. True, if he was in a fight with a 100 peasants he would get trunced. But the peasants normally wouldn't attack a scion. There are however extraneous circumstances, like being influenced by another scion, rebellion (and even that is not personal as in one-on-one, etc. But without those circumstances peasants recognize the divinity in a scion and pay him respect - more so than in the traditional nobility of old.

From Book of Regency pg 16



“Bloodlines and blood abilities mean more than power to the Cerilian scion. They imbue each blooded character with distinction—a sign that proclaims to the world that this person is destined to do something. For good or evil, better or worse, a scion links himself to the land the day he inherits a bloodline. His actions will affect the world.”

[Fizz]

“Bloodlines and blood abilities mean more than power to the Cerilian scion. They imbue each blooded character with distinction—a sign that proclaims to the world that this person is destined to do something. For good or evil, better or worse, a scion links himself to the land the day he inherits a bloodline. His actions will affect the world.”

There's something fishy about this. If read literally it means that any scion wandering the land would be instantly recognized as such. I don't think that was the intent. As for affecting the world, that may be true of a regent, but most scions won't ever have a single domain. So then how are they tied to the land?

I understand the mystique that may surround a known scion, particularly one who is a regent. But i'm not convinced that every scion is going to exude this aura of i'm better than you- respect me!. Heh.

-Fizz

[Osprey]

I've always assumed it's the scions with Bloodmark, Divine Aura, and Charm Aura who really stand out among common men (hence the Cha-skill bonuses). They're some of my favorite blood abilities for the flavor they bring into the game, though Divine Aura is quite the "quell the mob" power that can render whole units inert.

[irdeggman]

There's something fishy about this. If read literally it means that any scion wandering the land would be instantly recognized as such. I don't think that was the intent. As for affecting the world, that may be true of a regent, but most scions won't ever have a single domain. So then how are they tied to the land?


IMO, because they may be tied to the land and only scions can be so. . .


I understand the mystique that may surround a known scion, particularly one who is a regent. But i'm not convinced that every scion is going to exude this aura of i'm better than you- respect me!. Heh.

-Fizz


Could be.

But there should be something about them since even tainted bloodlines have a trace of divinity to them.

Just because they "seem" different to the peasant, it doesn't mean that the peasant knows why they are different only that there is something about them that exudes some type of "power" and the potential for "authority".

[irdeggman]

I've always assumed it's the scions with Bloodmark, Divine Aura, and Charm Aura who really stand out among common men (hence the Cha-skill bonuses). They're some of my favorite blood abilities for the flavor they bring into the game, though Divine Aura is quite the "quell the mob" power that can render whole units inert.

Those are the ones that demonstrate/epitomize the greatest effect - except maybe Divine Wrath.

[ausrick]

From a Dm's perspective, If a player is a Scion (and not the realm's ruler) and he is a level 9 wizard. People will fear him, as they should. Commoners will not want to cross him. Even a highly skilled veteran soldier would show him deference. Now, if this PC decided he didn't like the mayor of a town, who happens to be a level 3 aristicrat, so he uses fireballs to burn his house to the ground and kill his family. Peasants will flee, I would flee too. But I would hope there would be some cops/guards near by in my campaign. Witnesses to report the happening to further away places, political reprocussions, and I would dang hope to have somebody that would be of the right station and power level to deal with the situation. I guess the point is that No matter how high a level a character is, or how divine their bloodline is, or how much magic they can wield, you game has to be able to remind players that Cerillia isn't their personal romper room without consequences.

Question is right in his idea that normally flight takes precedense over fight in non-trained combatants, especially at the sight of carnage. Irdeggman has a point about scions possibly having a commanding presence by their tie to the land, whether this is just flavor or mechanical. When you meet a king usually you find yourself bowing and you don't even know why, I can see that happening/heard of it happening. All that said, plenty of Commoners have gotten ticked at their king enough to do him in if he is totally inept, tyrannical, and worthless. The Knight vrs peasants was originally from an article about dming styles, and I think it was based on a peasant uprising and responsive quelling attempt as opposed to a stroll into town slaughter fest.

Balance, or more like checks and balances, are all the things that a DM needs to take into account in the mechanics they use, and when they change something they need to think about implications. Some DM's feel that town guards and constabulary should never really be above level 1 warriors(Old skool level 0). If this DM has evil PC's and gives out experience to his players, he had better have some sort of contingency ready or he may have an urban bloodbath on his hands:D

The Issue of magic and aGoT's, the Down and Dirty Rules, and some other game system modifications really bear the same issue in mind. If you use the standard rules except make better than mundane equipment ultra rare, it will shift emphasis to skills, feats, and levels. If you eliminate entire schools of magic without changing anything else, it will make spell casters weaker and thus melee characters stronger. If you reduce hitpoints it will make your game more leathal. If you don't adjust spell damage for reduced hitpoints, it will gave evokers WoMD.

We need to help Lundos2 with some suggestions on how to achieve that balance, especially with a Low HP setting. My first thought, like Fizz and Osprey, would be to adjust the damage down or use a non-level based system. The other school of thought, about limiting access to spells to solve the problem. . . I see how it could work, but it could be a slippery and dangerous slope just because of the unforseen consequences of eliminating an aspect of the game totally. I see this one as taking the most work to maintain balance. Others have suggested Societal constraints (i.e. the wizard could level the whole block, but the re-precussions would be so bad that he wouldn't), these could work only if the mechanics could back it up.

balance and reality don't always mesh the best is what I'm finding out the more I tweak with games. Because when you think about it, yeah, realistically HP woudln't increase that much and combat is dangerous at all levels. At the same time massive Explosions with a 40' radius and bolts of lightning will jack anybody up. Mix them together and do you have a balanced gaming system though?

A fun thought, is in the D20 Ravenloft books, they have a chapter on DM tactics to put the fear of death back in your PC's. Ravenloft is a "low" magic setting. (Items are more expensive, rare, and normal people just don't see magic that often, not saying that powerful magics do not exist.) They have a lot of sidebars and DM recommendations on how to create this feel. I will look up some of those time permitting and share the ideas here.

[irdeggman]

You could also just start applying SR to all creatures and characters.

This would have the result of reducing the effect of spells and spell-like abilities and still keep the "normal" fighting intact.

If the cost of creating magic items is increased (i.e., the market price) this increases the material costs and the exp costs for creating magic items which reduces the amount of them in a game - but will yield greater income from creating them since the sale price goes up (i.e., higher profit). The increased exp cost will keep down the level of spellcasters since it will slow their progression accordingly.
What this does however is to make spellcastering classes less desireable to players. Giving them an bonus feat (at first level) and sn skill point per level would probably help to mitigate this while not making things overpowering. Also helps to shift things towards a more skill based game too.

[Patrucio]

Rather than trying to adapt the AGoT rules to Cerelia, you COULD try addapting the Birthright rules to Westeros. That's what I've been working on, and I've found it much easier to take things that direction than the other.

[Morcar]

Hello!

I have generally a problem with the "power-level" of D&D 3.0/3.5. I think such spells as Fly, Fireball and Teleport can destroy the sense of wonder in a low-magic campaign because they are early available in the game-rules.
I use a modification of the npc-classes as starting classes for players and make the coreclasses to prestigeclasses (with restrictions which have to fulfil). The npc-classes and the "new" prestige-classes have their own spell progression. In result the characters have more low-level spells and gain the high-level spells later in game.
Common adult people have usually in my campaigns a level of 3 to make them a little bit harder.
If someone interested in this variant he can buy a very good e-book from d20 Emerald Press called "Character Options: Commoners" which introduces modified npc-classes for players.
Avaivable for 5$ at: http://www.rpgnow.com/

P.S. Sorry for grammatical mistakes, I`m no native speaker (and was lazy in school ;) )

[Lundos2]

First of all I'd like to thank everybody who wrote on this thread so far. :)

To clear something up: when I mean low magic, I didn't mean that high magic doesn't exist, but that magical items and powerful magic are extremely rare. I like Fizz' 'rare-magic' line. In birthright it is recommended that every magic item has a background story and a special reason to be created e.g 7 rings of protection +1 created/given to 7 dwarven brothers out to avenge the murder of their father etc.
Potions and scrolls are of course more commen. A lot of churches makes some items at least.

I like several of the ideas about magic. Encouraging players to specialize is a good idea. You might even make it specialized like the warrens in Steven Eriksons books. The increase in spell components prizes will at least make some problems to non-regent spellcasters. I thought about a slower spell progression too. Or you might make armours damage reduction (DR) work against spells. If a firebell eg gave 10d4 (average 25) and DR (chain mail 5) would make the total damage of 7 (or 20 if he failed the save), while an average 10th level man-at-arms have around 47. Is that too powerful? I mean a normal 10d6 fireball isn't a problem at all for a standard 10th level fighter.
For clerics you can reduce healing by removing the instant cure ability.

[ausrick]

I feel you. usually low hp or "low" magic rulesets are designed to add a little more realism into the campaign. and realistically a magical ball of fire would ruin the day of any adventurer, but unless you are going for a high PC body count something needs to give.

I just this week picked up the "Masque of the Red Death" book for the d20 Ravenloft campaign setting from Sword and Sorcery. Since it is designed to take place in the 1890's victorian era, they have modified the rules to better capture that kind of feel. I am by no means done reading it but so far it seems to have done a good job. Though not necessarily a parallel to BR, in MotRD, Strong magic exists, but in an enlightened, civilized society, it is hidden and kept secret. Magic is a dangerous force, and it can have dire consequences for people who delve too far into forbidden lore. They have some system of checks that you need to make when you cast a spell to see if it works how it is intended. Again, I'm not done reading it but it sounds interesting. They also echo the idea of the rarity (not lack of power) of magic items. And say that as the DM you should never place random magic items in a MotRD campaign. They say, echoing the BR idea, that every magic item was created for a specific reason, and probably has a name and a history. I'll have to keep reading but I'm sure they do some alteration to the spells that are available because I know things like fly and fireball would have similar negative effects to the story in 1890's London just the same as they would in 560's MR Anuire.

[Question]

You might want to check out white wolf's mage : the awakening(im not sure if thats still the name of the mage book in the new world of darkness). Paradox is a very effective check and balances system to prevent mages running around spamming fireballs.

[hirumatogeru]

I also recently picked up a copy of the AGoT campaign setting, and I love the rules changes, especially the combat based ones to armour, hp, classes, etc. And again, I have seen that the magic system in D&D will not fit exactly into that described in this set of rules. To tone down the spells and power level of magic, I would introduce the following as the minimum changes required for all spells.

Spells that do multiple dice of damage would instead do 1 die of damage, and add a flat number for each additional die, much like how the hit points work. So a fireball would deal 1d6 damage plus 1 per caster level, Reflex save for half as usual. You could also rule that the target's shield bonus adds to their saving throw, as if it was cover. This follows the old "knight hiding behind his shield to protect himself from the dragon's breath" image that we all know from many fantasy pictures and movies.

Also, since all classes no longer get to automatically add their Str or Dex modifiers to attack rolls, I would also remove the "bonus spells known" for spellcasters, based on a high Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma score.

These should, at the very least, tone down magic enough that you can use it with the Game of Thrones rules system. Another good idea is to simply make all magic spells become legendary feats, or other kinds of feats as in the GoT rulebook. This keeps them rare, but also accessible to players who wish to play wizards or sorcerers. I also know that the Unearthed Arcana book by WotC has some alternative magic systems in it which may be worth exploring too.

[kgauck]

I have often been tempted by AGoT and its price tag has provided the modifier I needed to make my Willpower save. It does look very cool, and for the price tag, it does seem to include a lot of material.

As someone who sees the BR setting thorugh a lens that is Arthurian rather than Tolkienesque, I interpret low magic this way.
[list]
Magic is rare.
Character level is lower so access to higher level powers of all sorts, but especially magic, is very rare.
The definition of true and lessor magic suggest the Arthurian magic seen most often, enchantment, divination, and illusion, should be the most common magic found. Its subtle. Only the blooded can be flashy.

Even though divine magic is less rare, and by its very nature less flashy, some characteristics of the setting, such as low character level, will tend to lower the potency of everyone's magic.

Because magic can be so profound in its effects, DM's can often find the level of magic, fine for parties that spend most of their time in dungeons, fighting dragons, out of whack for politics, diplomacy, and intrigues. Morcar mentioned Fly, Fireball and Teleport spells, and I would add Invisibility, and even Message, as spells that can make a magical world very different. Again, for the standard D&D game, balanced for the four core archtypes, things work pretty well as is. For BR, you have to assume that everyone is using as much magic in defense as potential rivals are using in offense, or magic gets out of control pretty quickly.

Mythical old BR grognards might recall Ryan Caveney's arguments on the profound changes magic makes.

[Trithemius]

D&D magic systems don't do magic defence especially well either (although 3.x is much improved over earlier versions).

My BR wizards use magic for "knowledge and defence" (i.e. spying and running interference on other magic use), not as magical weapons of mass destruction.

Kenneth: Was I subconsciously channelling Ryan C. the other day with my talk of wizards getting changed by their studies? Or are you thinking of something different?

[hirumatogeru]

Well the AGoT setting uses a rare (but dangerous) system of magic, whereby the character takes Legendary feats (as they are called) that teach him a spell that he can cast. Usually the casting times and drawbacks of casting the spells are very steep however, resulting in ability damage, and so forth. Also, the spell feats are sometimes left to DM discretion, with very loose guidelines on what they are capable of.

I have always felt that magic in birthright, if you are blooded, should be a bit easier than that. I can see feats required for realm spells for instance, and I think the casting of such spells should be epic, and dangerous similar to that mentioned above, but not for mundane spells that blooded wizards, or even magicians, use on a daily basis.

That being said, I also agree that magic should be *rare* as the setting recommends. Some characters may never encounter a wizard in their lifetime, ever. And I'm not using Divine magic in my game either, as I'm going the route of faith granting bonuses based on influence, rather than direct divine intervention.

So for my campaign, I'll need some published rules or guidelines about how to make arcane magic into a non-level based system where wizards can't go around casting 10 fireballs a day and fly away afterwards.

Masque of the Red Death I will look into, as this sounds like its on the right track to what I'm looking for. Any others you guys have found useful?

[Lord Rahvin]

>
> Kenneth: Was I subconsciously channelling Ryan C. the other day with my
> talk of wizards getting changed?



I hypothesise that the entity commonly channelled as Ryan C. exists as a
unit of information in the form of a complex theory of political and magical
equilibrium (or lack thereof). This unit of information is actually a
complex replicator, in much the same way that genes are replicators of
information. Ryan C. generally replicates through exposure to humans, who
have evolved over the centuries as efficient (though not perfect) copiers of
information and behaviour. Ryan C. does not always get copied perfectly, and
might indeed become refined, combined or otherwise modified with other
ideas, resulting in a new Ryan C. This new Ryan C. may itself prove to be
a more (or less) efficient replicator than its predecessor, thus providing a
framework for a theory of Birthright evolution, analogous to the theory of
biological evolution based on genes.

Considerable controversy surrounds the term "Ryan C." and its associated
academic discipline, Cavenism, In part this arises because a number of
possible (though not mutually exclusive) interpretations of the nature of
the concept have arisen:

1. The least controversial claim suggests that Ryan C. provides a
useful philosophical perspective with which to examine evolution of the
Birthright game culture. Proponents of this view argue that considering
Birthright developments from a Ryan C.`s perspective — *as if* Ryan
C. acted to maximise its own replication and survival — can lead to useful
insights and yield valuable predictions into how Birthright develops over
time. The founders of Cavenism seem to favor this approach.
2. Other theorists, have focused on the need to provide an empirical
grounding for the study of Ryan C. in order for people to regard Caneism as
a real and useful scientific discipline. Given the nebulous (and in many
cases subjective) nature of Ryan C., providing such an empirical grounding
has to date proved challenging.
3. A third approach, exemplified by GeeMan in his book *Wizards and
the 0-level Holding *(2001), seeks to place Ryan C. at the centre of a
radical and counter-intuitive statistical theory involving the census of
magically-empowered individuals and questions about the nature of elven
immortality. This culminates in his most radical work yet: *Prestige
Holdings: Intelligence For Its Own Sake *(2002), which has been banned
in 14 provinces and declared Heresy by the Orthodox Imperial Temple of
Haelyn.

[kgauck]

D&D magic systems don't do magic defence especially well either (although 3.x is much improved over earlier versions).

Generally, I'd like to see magical defense stronger than offense, at least for BR. Strong divinations tend to aid defense more than offense, since offense depends more on surprise.


My BR wizards use magic for "knowledge and defence" (i.e. spying and running interference on other magic use), not as magical weapons of mass destruction. This seems much less distruptive to the setting.


Kenneth: Was I subconsciously channelling Ryan C. the other day with my talk of wizards getting changed by their studies? Or are you thinking of something different?I was thinking of something else, how every part of the world has to be adjusted as a result of magic. But I would say you were channelling another argument Ryan has made about magic's impact. Or maybe its just a more specific example of the broader point. Perhaps instead of channeling, we should attempt summoning?

[kgauck]

So for my campaign, I'll need some published rules or guidelines about how to make arcane magic into a non-level based system where wizards can't go around casting 10 fireballs a day and fly away afterwards.Are you just trying to nerf magic progression, or do you want a flat magical ability ?

Two things you can do to limit the impact of magic include

make nearly all spells connected to skills so that spells are basically a skill bonus.
reduce the levels of spellcasting a player can take.

As varients, I have seen rangers, bards, and paladins as classes that are not core classes, either as PrC's or other limited things. You could make spellcasting classes as small as 5 level, or even three level classes, and then provide PrC's that don't offer spellcasting every level.

Consider a Wizard class of 5 levels (or 4 if you want to include lessor magic) and then a PrC, or set of PrC's that do whatever you like in terms of magic limits.

[ArdenKurt]

A fairly effective way to limit magic is to enforce memorization time. Arden, the character my username comes from, is a fairly high level mage. Since fireball is the example most people are using (and since Arden is a pyromaniac), I will use it too.

And use it I have! Usually I end up having to drop it at my own feet and nearly die in the process. I was nearly sentenced to death for NOT using one (long story involving someone posing as me who had, which worked because I'd gained a reputation for using fire magic). It scared people every time the magic came out and there were serious, serious consequences.

But even with a mage who can use Fireball and Fly, we had a fairly low-magic game. Sure, I could cast Fireball, once, if I spent most of an hour memorizing it that morning. Seriously, what party is going to sit around on the road waiting six hours for their mage to memorize all their spells? You lose them all every night. If you try to memorize the max of each level you could potentially have, well, you wouldn't have any time left to adventure! It was not uncommon for me to get up before anyone else, do one or two higher level spells and max my lvl 1s, just because I wanted to get more than two miles down the road before camping again.

[ryancaveney]

On Tue, 3 Apr 2007, Lord Rahvin wrote:

> I hypothesise that the entity commonly channelled as Ryan C. exists as a
> unit of information in the form of a complex theory of political and
> magical equilibrium (or lack thereof).

ROTFLOL! Thank you, thank you, old friends. It's good to know that I am
still remembered appropriately. =) I don't think I've ever been called a
meme before, but I like it.

> Ryan C. does not always get copied perfectly, and might indeed become
> refined, combined or otherwise modified with other ideas, resulting in a
> new Ryan C.

Precisely why exact copying would be bad!

> 1. The least controversial claim suggests that Ryan C. provides a useful
> philosophical perspective with which to examine evolution of the
> Birthright game culture.

Meaning the culture of the players or the cultures of Cerilia? One of the
things I really like about having in the game world (near-)immortal beings
who don't think much of humans is that they can perform *experimental
sociology*; to me, the five human cultures of Cerilia fit the bill nicely as
analog of different kinds of mice running mazes for the researchers...
pre-Deismaar dragons wearing very large lab coats, perhaps?

> Birthright developments from a Ryan C.'s perspective ~W *as if* Ryan
> C. acted to maximise its own replication and survival ~W

Somehow I don't remember my actions as being particularly maximized for
replication, but since at least the old fogeys are still talking about me,
something must have worked.

> Given the nebulous (and in many cases subjective) nature of Ryan C.,
> providing such an empirical grounding has to date proved challenging.

Gee, thanks. :} I tend to think I'm pretty empirical, but then I was once
a theoretical physicist -- or was I only theoretically a physicist?

> 3. A third approach, exemplified by GeeMan in his book *Wizards and the
> 0-level Holding *(2001), seeks to place Ryan C. at the centre of a radical
> and counter-intuitive statistical theory involving the census of
> magically-empowered individuals and questions about the nature of elven
> immortality. This culminates in his most radical work yet: *Prestige
> Holdings: Intelligence For Its Own Sake *(2002), which has been banned in
> 14 provinces and declared Heresy by the Orthodox Imperial Temple of
> Haelyn.

Ahhhh, those were the good old days.


Ryan

[geeman]

At 06:34 PM 4/3/2007, ryancaveney wrote:

>ROTFLOL! Thank you, thank you, old friends. It`s good to know that I am
>still remembered appropriately. =) I don`t think I`ve ever been called a
>meme before, but I like it.

>Ahhhh, those were the good old days.

Speaking of memes and good old days, I`ve been meaning to ask you,
Ryan, if you`re the same person who clarified the physics of
anti-tank warheads for the illustrious War Nerd sometime about a year
and a half ago? If not, there`s at least one articulate and
knowledgable person of the same name running about on the `net....

If you have no idea what I`m talking about see:
http://www.exile.ru/2005-December-15/war_nerd_alert.html

Gary

[Trithemius]

Holy crap, it's like 2001 all over again! :)
Hi folks!

[ryancaveney]

Speaking of memes and good old days, I`ve been meaning to ask you,
Ryan, if you`re the same person who clarified the physics of
anti-tank warheads for the illustrious War Nerd sometime about a year
and a half ago? If not, there`s at least one articulate and
knowledgable person of the same name running about on the `net....


Yes, that was me. Well spotted!

I just googled myself, and discovered that I am basically the only "Ryan Caveney" on the net. The computer programming lists and book errata, the MIT musical theater groups, and the NASA weather satellite stuff, as well as the gaming, is all me. The only one I saw with a different Ryan Caveney is a middle school golf team. Actually, "Caveney" alone seems to be a rather uncommon name, since about half of the hits of Somebody Caveney plus Ryan Somebodyelse turn out to include my sister or my cousin. There's a picture of me playing chess in one of the early pages, but I caution against reading the theater reviews too uncritically -- in my (and our director's) opinion, Sweeney Todd and Mrs. Lovett aren't supposed to be comfortable with each other! Listen to the words of that song ("By the Sea") and the encompassing scene: he's just humoring her, paying minimal attention as he plots his revenge and pines for his long-lost wife. I was staring at the audience and being cold to her because it's how the scene is supposed to work. But that's another story -- never mind, anyway. ;)


Ryan

[ryancaveney]

Was I subconsciously channelling Ryan C. the other day with my talk of wizards getting changed by their studies? Or are you thinking of something different?

I've been combing the fora, but I can't figure out what this is in reference to. Could you point it out, please?


I was thinking of something else, how every part of the world has to be adjusted as a result of magic. But I would say you were channelling another argument Ryan has made about magic's impact. Or maybe its just a more specific example of the broader point.

Ah, yes. For a given level of magic ability, the more people who have it, the less powerful it is. Therefore, paradoxically, the game world which needs the least modification from real-world history is Glorantha, where *everybody* has magic. However, magic is very specialized, and almost entirely skill-enhancing: to some extent, the warleader is the one with the best combat magic, the chief farmer is the one with the best farming magic, and the king is the one with the best rulership magic. It stays reasonably bronze age because the land itself is magical, too: every healer needs to have healing magic, because all diseases are magical in nature, so the effect of everyone having magic somewhat cancels out.

The trouble with D&D magic is that it's so general, so direct in effect, and neither very rare nor very common. It's nearly indistinguishable from technology: even the BR-specific magic items in the Book of Magecraft include a fax machine and a reconnaissance satellite downlink. The social consequences, much less the military ones, of having something like Cure Disease or Create Food and Water available to perhaps one person in a hundred or a thousand are immense, and have never been thought out. The D&D magic system is tossed into a medieval world without any exploration of the fact that such a world would be changed as much by its introduction as it would by modern technology in the hands of enough people that everyone encounters its effects, but few enough people that most have no direct control over it. Frankly, given the D&D magic system as stated in the PHB, there is no way to avoid every realm becoming a magocracy in very short order.


Perhaps instead of channeling, we should attempt summoning?

You seem to have succeeded.


Ryan

[hirumatogeru]

I found a decent magic system in Green Ronin's Black Companies book. It seems to limit low level spellcasters to some basic tricks and minor spells, and then once they hit the higher levels, they can do more with what they have. The main thing I like though is that it is a skill driven system and most of the spells take longer than 1 round to cast, and can cause drain on the caster. I would highly recommend this book to everyone based on the magic system alone, although it also has some nice additional combat rules, a new take on a few classes, and is based off of some great novels to boot.

[Trithemius]

I've been combing the fora, but I can't figure out what this is in reference to. Could you point it out, please?

Kenneth and I were jawing on an instant-messenger. I was saying that the transformation (corruption!) of the Lost could be just the nastiest example of magic having "side effects" on those who study it. Powerful evocations and summonings are quite injurious to my sense of the BR magical aesthetic, so I theorise that they might be unpopular because they cause changes in the personality, and eventually in the bodies, of those who learn powerful magics from "unsafe" arts (the schools which are prohibited to magicians).

Divination, Illusion, and lesser magic is okay, since Vorynn and Ruornil have 'sanctified' it, making it safe for humanity to practice.

I sort of imagine the changes as similar to Warping in Ars Magica Fifth Edition (ArM5); Kenneth seems to like the Taint mechanics from OA/UA.


Ah, yes. For a given level of magic ability, the more people who have it, the less powerful it is. Therefore, paradoxically, the game world which needs the least modification from real-world history is Glorantha, where *everybody* has magic. However, magic is very specialized, and almost entirely skill-enhancing: to some extent, the warleader is the one with the best combat magic, the chief farmer is the one with the best farming magic, and the king is the one with the best rulership magic. It stays reasonably bronze age because the land itself is magical, too: every healer needs to have healing magic, because all diseases are magical in nature, so the effect of everyone having magic somewhat cancels out.

I sure love me some Glorantha.
In Glorantha things that we would treat as technology are magical in nature anyway (Zistor is an AI! A Loskalmi's blade-sharped iron sword is a product of "advanced metallurgy".. which just happens to be practiced by guys with pointy hats... etc).


The trouble with D&D magic is that it's so general, so direct in effect, and neither very rare nor very common. It's nearly indistinguishable from technology: even the BR-specific magic items in the Book of Magecraft include a fax machine and a reconnaissance satellite downlink. The social consequences, much less the military ones, of having something like Cure Disease or Create Food and Water available to perhaps one person in a hundred or a thousand are immense, and have never been thought out. The D&D magic system is tossed into a medieval world without any exploration of the fact that such a world would be changed as much by its introduction as it would by modern technology in the hands of enough people that everyone encounters its effects, but few enough people that most have no direct control over it. Frankly, given the D&D magic system as stated in the PHB, there is no way to avoid every realm becoming a magocracy in very short order.

Especially since recent imaginings of realm magic have made divine magic worse than useless. Where is the power that saved humanity from the perils of the Sidhelien now?


You seem to have succeeded.

I told Kenneth it was klaatu barada nikto! ;)

[prince_dios]

The special edition of A Game of Thrones had tri-stat rules in their own chapter(a X 2 as big price tag). They probably would have eventually been released on their own, but Guardians of Order went under. A shame. I was thinking about how Tri-Stat AGOT would be perfect for Birthright.

I like AGOTs fixes to D+D, but using -all- of them would likely be as clunky as regular D+D. :P I mean, there gets to be a point where fixing something is more expensive than buying a new one.

[hirumatogeru]

Well, I have finally begun writing up my own rules for Birthright, using A Game of Thrones as the core system.

There were a few main parts of this rules system that needed expanding when dealing with a Birthright campaign.

1. Magic. The basic fire and forget D&D style is far too powerful for AGoT rules, where hit points are drastically reduced. I used the True Sorcery system from Green Ronin's book to handle this, and I think its a great match. It can be powerful at higher levels, but magic users will need to spend multiple rounds in order to cast such spells (which reflects realm and battle spells well). I see great opportunities for encounters between warriors and spellcasters, where it becomes a race to who strikes first, the knight charging on his mount to impale the mage on his lance, or the wizard who frantically collects and focuses his energy to cast a spell to slay the charging knight.

2. Bloodlines. The GoT rules use feats to handle bloodlines. I also have an issue of Dragon magazine that includes a feat based system for Birthright bloodlines and abilities. So this is the system I will be using with the GoT rules.

3. Domain Actions/Rules. I'll be using the 2nd edition rules for most of this, as I don't see much need to change them. Proficiencies and such will be converted to skills of course, but otherwise, the rules will remain as in 2nd edition. This includes mass warfare unless the PC's are actively controlling their army or joining a unit in the fight. In that case, I will allow them to use a series of combat opportunities that I found in the Legend of the Five Rings Third Edition RPG to imporove their army's chances.

4. Magical/Masterwork items. Personally, I hate high magic campaigns, and thus, have made magic items extremely rare, as suggested in AGoT. Even masterwork items become reserved for regents and high level characters who wear or wield unique items to their station.

Once its finished I'd love to get some feedback from forum members here, so I'll let you know when that day comes :)

[kgauck]

Very much looking forward to it.

[Arclight]

I've been following this for a bit now and well this probably is my first post on this site but here goes. I've been looking at doing this very same thing to make Birthright more viable to my current gaming group and from what i've seen you have all done an amazing job. I have a suggestion and criticism is applauded on this. I want to use the backstory of Birthright, the Nit n' Gritty rules of Agot and the magic system of the Midnight Campaign System. This may not seem good at first glance but if you also take the idea of making magic (divine and arcane) base classes (bard, druid, cleric, wiz/sor, etc) and taking them out as base classes then you can use the Midnight system to better effect.
The nice part about the Midnight system is it allows for more customization on classes. Take for example the character who wants to play a bard: He starts out as a rogue, takeing a couple of levels in that and taking the Spellcasting and Magecraft feats from the midnight setting. He chooses to have Evocation (lesser) from the list of schools in the spellcasting feat description. After a couple more choices by buying spellcasting multiple times he could pick up Enchantment, illusion and Abjuration (basically a bard, though I am probably missing a couple of schools!) His spellcasting is limited to his Con mod however, limiting his destructive capability unless he takes levels in channeler (the core spellcasting class). Even as a channeler you don't really have to worry about fireball spamming as using beyond the channeler pool will take the con of the channeler quickly down until he passes out.
Anyway thats just my thought, let me know what you think, obviously the spells will still have to be reduced in damage to work for AGOT, I am leaning towards the 1/2 damage rule thus far...

[Sir Tiamat]

I've been following this for a bit now and well this probably is my first post on this site but here goes. I've been looking at doing this very same thing to make Birthright more viable to my current gaming group and from what i've seen you have all done an amazing job. I have a suggestion and criticism is applauded on this. I want to use the backstory of Birthright, the Nit n' Gritty rules of Agot and the magic system of the Midnight Campaign System. This may not seem good at first glance but if you also take the idea of making magic (divine and arcane) base classes (bard, druid, cleric, wiz/sor, etc) and taking them out as base classes then you can use the Midnight system to better effect.
The nice part about the Midnight system is it allows for more customization on classes. Take for example the character who wants to play a bard: He starts out as a rogue, takeing a couple of levels in that and taking the Spellcasting and Magecraft feats from the midnight setting. He chooses to have Evocation (lesser) from the list of schools in the spellcasting feat description. After a couple more choices by buying spellcasting multiple times he could pick up Enchantment, illusion and Abjuration (basically a bard, though I am probably missing a couple of schools!) His spellcasting is limited to his Con mod however, limiting his destructive capability unless he takes levels in channeler (the core spellcasting class). Even as a channeler you don't really have to worry about fireball spamming as using beyond the channeler pool will take the con of the channeler quickly down until he passes out.
Anyway thats just my thought, let me know what you think, obviously the spells will still have to be reduced in damage to work for AGOT, I am leaning towards the 1/2 damage rule thus far...

The Midnight magic system is fun but begins eroding at level 5, becoming a real problem around level 10 and totally breaks down at level 15…Mainly because a spellcasting class receives only one additional spell level (spellpoint) per level…

I would suggest increasing spellpoint allotment slightly at higher levels. Still far less spell levels than PHB mages but more in line with the costs of higher level spells;
-lvl 1-5: 1sp/lvl
-lvl 6-10: 2sp/lvl
-lvl 11-15: 3sp/lvl
-lvl 15-20: 4sp/lvl

[Arclight]

The Midnight magic system is fun but begins eroding at level 5, becoming a real problem around level 10 and totally breaks down at level 15…Mainly because a spellcasting class receives only one additional spell level (spellpoint) per level…

I would suggest increasing spellpoint allotment slightly at higher levels. Still far less spell levels than PHB mages but more in line with the costs of higher level spells;
-lvl 1-5: 1sp/lvl
-lvl 6-10: 2sp/lvl
-lvl 11-15: 3sp/lvl
-lvl 15-20: 4sp/lvl

I like the idea you've got here, it'll make high level spells really costly, which fits the AGoT system perfectly. I've also thought of using realm spells as high level spells, maybe even epic, I havent really decided yet. Any more feedback or ideas for this is most appreciated, I am really determined to blend Birthright and AGOT into a uniqe fantasy setting. Keep the coments and ideas pouring in! :D

[hirumatogeru]

I have some ideas on the magic/damage potential that I ran through during my conversion, which is still underway btw!

The main problems with d20 magical damage and AGoT can be broken down into 3 main categories.

1. Heroes in AGoT have very few hit points. To address this I would simply change spells that use multiple dice as damage to static numbers, much like how hit dice were changed into static hit points per level. So a fireball for instance would deal 1d6 plus 1 fire damage per level. Magic missile would deal 1d4+1 plus 1 damage per extra milssile against the same target, etc. etc.

2. Heroes in AGoT have a shock value. Due to magic's ability to deal large quantities of damage and the fact they ignore armor, this can be a problem. Using the solution in #1 above should address this, or as an added measure, characters may add their armor bonus to their saving throws against damaging spells.

3. Magic items in AGoT and Birthright will be extremely rare if available at all. Masterwork items also become exceedingly rare, usually reserved for royalty or noble heads of house. Hence, saving throws tend to be tougher and abilities like evasion no longer exist. This should also be fine using #1 and #2 as above, but needs to be playtested.

The midnight game is actually quite good and I looked into it for running my own campaign, but decided upon AGoT due to its gritty and realistic combat rules. Although I may borrow some of the midnight rules for creating magic items at power nexuses. It would promote questing and roleplaying and offer a cool tie in to source holdings as well.

[Bren]

Another very good example of a low HP d20 system is babylon 5 made by mongoose publishing.

The characters start with a die of hp (d4,d6 etc) + con bonus and each level they get either 1 or 2 hps (no con bonus).

The book technomages, a sourcebook for the setting is a good example of magic in such a low hp setting.

[Green Knight]

Well, I'm not sure I'm convinced that Midnight is the right system. It basically keeps the magic system from DnD, it only severely limits the number of spells that can be cast.

In fact, it limits the number of spells so severely that playing a spellcaster becomes incredibly boring; it is not that you are not powerful, because you are, but after a few spells your out of juice and that's about that.

This problem is (slightly) mitigated by since there are some classes and magic items that recude spellcasting costs; the way they are designed means they are very effective when applied to 1st and 2nd level spells; but not of that much use for high-lvl spells.

Moreover, combining AGoT with DnD spells (even when they are reduced in number) will be IMO unbalancing. Damage-dealing spells will potentially be devastating (which is perhaps OK). Halving damage will reduce this problem somewhat.

My main concern is still the non-damaging spells. Any spell that has an incapacitating effect on a failed save will be quite potent; sleep, charm etc.

So DnD spells Midnight style, applied within AGoT context , I fear will lead to exceedinly boring situations. In which the spell-casters do very little for most of the time, and then suddenly snap of a few devastating spells, before going back into coma . Similar perhaps to they way they play in vanilla, but I fear it will be even worse here.

Then again, that migth actually be what the designer is looking for; mages that are more of a threath becasue of what they CAN do, then for what they DO. Might be quite fitting for BR I suppose; but I'm not sure how fun it would be to play.

[Green Knight]

Hmm,

My previous post was more negative than I had intended. Here are some more constructive tips:

1. Sticking with DnD spells will probably save a lot of work instead of designing from top up.

2. I'd go through the spells in DnD and delete completely unappropriate ones, change the level of some etc., so that none are (completely) broken with regards to AGoT rules.

3. This will probably leave some holes, so some new spells might be called for.

4. Limitng access to the higher-level spell is proabbly a good idea; but not a good idea to simply make it a pain even to learn or cast veery low-level spells.

5. If spell-casters to be limited in spells; they need other skills. Mutlicalssing is one option; or reworking the classes to give less magic and more breadth.

Btw: My Midnight experience tells me that the feat/spell school estriction is fairly meaningless. It doesn't mean the players get less powerful spells; it only limits their spell choices. Once again I tend to find this constricting and unfun (that's not a real word is it?)

[Green Knight]

I have some ideas on the magic/damage potential that I ran through during my conversion, which is still underway btw!

The main problems with d20 magical damage and AGoT can be broken down into 3 main categories.

1. Heroes in AGoT have very few hit points. To address this I would simply change spells that use multiple dice as damage to static numbers, much like how hit dice were changed into static hit points per level. So a fireball for instance would deal 1d6 plus 1 fire damage per level. Magic missile would deal 1d4+1 plus 1 damage per extra milssile against the same target, etc. etc.


Here is a potential problem; while HEROES certainly have fewer hit points than they used to on higher levels...everyone will have MORE hit points at low levels, minor goons included.

[hirumatogeru]

True Sorcery is also worth checking out, its by Green Ronin and can be plugged into virtually any setting. It introduces a new magic mechanic where the spellcaster takes a basic spell, then applies modifications to it in order to cast it. There is a special DC that the caster must meet in order to the cast the spell, and if he fails, he must make another check next round with the first round's result as a bonus, and so on. It makes big spells like fireball possible, but most mages will be hard pressed to get one off in a single round.

Also, magic takes its toll on spellcasters via non-lethal damage, which they can reduce using spell points (kinda like mana). So even a big bad mage will still need to watch how many spells he casts, and after that fireball goes off, if he didn't kill his target, he's in big trouble.

[Gman]

My solution for mage spells vs armies is to consider any veteran troops at least 5th level Fighters. Probably choosen for Str and Con. 14 -16 in these stats. (above average -thats why they passed the selection)

D&D consistantly rates armies as Low level troops of 1-2 level fighters.

So you have spent the last 5-10 years at the service of Lord and Country - going through your arduous training from age 16 onwards - fighting several scirmishes with bandits, goblins, Gnolls, other Lords troops - fist fighting in the bars, getting into those illegal duels over the girls. Not to mention the failed invasion of Tournen and that encounter besieged in a border tower by Rhoubes Lieutenant. Hunting those wild boar to supplement your rations. Constantly pushed through drills and training etc etc.

And you, through all this have managed to get How many XP??? Big fat 0...

You get my point.

If your sick of having PC's blast armies then a few cleric or wizards can be counter spelling every thing they have.
And once the legend of the wizard with the fireballs spreads any general worth his pay will be working out some way to put him out of action - Particularly if they are considering invading the area he inhabits.
Pay those merc war wizards or assassins.

Elite troops level 10 - 12.
Class levels for everyone! Monster's too!

[Gman]

Or just don't let your PCs be more than Magicians.

Or let them be wizards and make them "WORK!" to find a new spell - What no magic shops????!!! You gained a level and you can't get any cool spells? No teachers consider you worthy??

[kgauck]

D&D consistantly rates armies as Low level troops of 1-2 level fighters. [..., instead] consider any veteran troops at least 5th level Fighters.
One of the things I liked about Heroes of Battle is that it abandons this assumption. Human recruits are Warrior 1, Human soldiers are Fighter 2, Human elite soldiers are Fighter 4, and Human elite cavalry are Fighter 5.

Of course how many of which fill out the regent's units is another question. My own sense is that regular standing units are composed mostly of F2 and W2 and 3, and that elite units have F3, 4, and 5.


Class levels for everyone! Monster's too!
hurrah!

[hirumatogeru]

Here is a potential problem; while HEROES certainly have fewer hit points than they used to on higher levels...everyone will have MORE hit points at low levels, minor goons included.

Just remember about the "Shock" value of AGoT, taking damage equal to half your Con score results in a massive damage save or you're stunned, possibly dying. For weapons its no biggie as armor helps against this, but a fireball can easily bypass this shock value even on a successful saving throw.

If you add your armor bonus to your shock value vs. spells, this could probably help a bit though.

[AndrewTall]

So you have spent the last 5-10 years at the service of Lord and Country - going through your arduous training from age 16 onwards - fighting several scirmishes with bandits, goblins, Gnolls, other Lords troops - fist fighting in the bars, getting into those illegal duels over the girls. Not to mention the failed invasion of Tournen and that encounter besieged in a border tower by Rhoubes Lieutenant. Hunting those wild boar to supplement your rations. Constantly pushed through drills and training etc etc.

And you, through all this have managed to get How many XP??? Big fat 0...



Well, although D20 kicks the levels up like a sugar junkie, generally PC's take on monsters that are an even match or not far short. Soldiers on the other hand generally fight CR1 or 2 opponents at best and prefer to load the odds in their favour - preferably extra-ordinarily so.

If your soldier is typically spending most of his time on guard duty, perhaps subduing the odd drunken peasant, and only actually at war for a few battles in every few years then they are unlikely to get many encounters worthy of experience - him and a dozen mates ploughing a few drunk peasants in a bar doesn't qualify.

If the soldier was routinely engaging in deadly encounters he would swiftly find that while a PC generally has a priest buddy close to hand and a hipful of potions of healing, the common grunt is not so lucky - or as long lived.

From a game balance point I see the issue - but I'd restrict high level characters not just buff everyone.

Admittedly I'm old school where a L1 fighter was titled a veteran...

I'd say L1 is a few good battles 'after basic', L2 is 2-3 years experience, L3 is 5-10 years and progress continues to slow - a grunt will rarely fight anything of CR2 or more and even then will generally do so with superior numbers.

In my view any grunt who hears 'ogre' and shouts 'huzzah!' before charging to glory is unlikely to survive long or do well in the discipline of an army.



Class levels for everyone! Monster's too!

You mean there are people who don't give monsters class levels to buff them up :confused: But how do their giants get whirlwind attack? :)