Winning as Tuornen

[Haelyn]

Hi guys.

I am new here so pardon some breaches in protocol.

I had a question about 'winning' in birthright. I know, winning is not a term one uses in the grimdark setting of birthright, where survival is scarce. But I am trying to get the best I can while playing as Tuornen in our P&P campaign as its Duke.

Some background:

In our campaign that has lasted for 2 and a half years now, we have reached a level equivalent to that of 12 or 13 in D&D in an in house developed ruleset. We have recently managed to Kill Rhuobhe with some one time use story powah!!! However this only replaced him with his son, Spiritrender from the Sword and the Crown adventure.

So Tuornen still faced Rhuobhe, but with a window of time to make some quick advances against other fronts.

Additionally, I am allied with Avanil and right *now* avanil and boruine are at peace. Moreover, I have passably good relations with Boruine as well.

Thus the main problems to me appear from Alamie or Five peaks. Alamie is now allied with Mhoried with marriage ties.

Can you guys suggest some long term strategy that can take clear advanteage of these situations?

Thanks in advance!

[AndrewTall]

No breaches, we are fairly informal here.

One approach is to see the ties between Mhoried and Alamie not as threat but as opportunity, the shield is ever hopeful for allies against the Gorgon and given some support may encourage Alamie to tolerate a free Tuornen.

Otherwise Ghoere is doubtless deeply concerned by the alliance of Alamie and Mhoried, its mercenary links give it significant deniable aid and while one must be wary dealing with such folk, and mindful of your alliance with Avanil, support may be available if requested in appropriate manner.

The clear approach is to request support from Avanil given its rivalry with Mhoried, likely available given the Mhor's increasing influence, such support may of course come at a price but then all support does I fear.

On other matters Boeruine clearly has bored soldiers if it isn't at odds with Avanil, perhaps it would be interested in clearing some of the unclaimed forest land to the north?

Endier has its own awnsheghlien issues, and you've clearly proved your prowess in that field, perhaps given your alliance with Avanil and a basic agreement with Ghoere you could 'persuade' the free city to accept your 'support'?

[arpig2]

Hit whoever is weak and alone

[Haelyn]

Thanks Andrew. More background:

Endier is already a very strong ally to Tuornen. I fear, however, that going after the spider right after killing Roubhe would be pressing my luck too much. The circumstances leading to Rhuobhe death were very specific/unique. I do not think we will have a similar opportunity with the Spider as well.

Going into the FIve peaks sounds intriguing. I am just wondering if it is worth it. Considering that this border is right now chaotic, entering there would invite/create another hostile enemy. On the other hand, there is a definite ooportunity there. I was planning to ask one of the PCs to carve out a realm there with my support. That way a buffer is formed between me and the five peaks.

I think I will elect to make peace with Alamie. However, their leaders are vile and trecherous. How does one befriend such regents? Another option for me, would be to use guile of the same sort that Alamie does and convince Mhoried that they are plotting againt the Mhor. The sister of the duke of Alamie is married to the Mhor. Maybe I could convince the Mhor that she is poisoning him?

[Nicholas Harrison]

I would consider allying with the Western Imperial Temple.

One of the interesting dimensions here is that it is in the Western Imperial Temple's interest to see Alamie and Tuornen united under one ruler. It gives them a distinct advantage as the state religion -- with a 1/2 to 1/4-1/4 advantage, as opposed to their current 1/2-1/2 split in each realm. They also have a lot of money.

The problem there is that none of the other major powers (Avanil, Boeruine, Mhoried, or Ghoere) would normally want to see a restored Greater Duchy as it adds a fifth potential contender. However, they might see it as a possible counterbalance to the Mhoried-Alamie alignment.

You have a natural shared faith alignment with Avanil through the Western Imperial Temple. Ghoere has a natural interest in countering Mhoried's growing interest. And, after killing the Manslayer (whom the Archduke saw as a personal enemy), you might be able to get Boeruine to overlook your manuever. (His personality seems the most likely to consider "repaying" the debt of killing off one of his enemies.)

So, you might just be able to make it work -- maybe garnering aid from all three of the other major powers if you made it clear that you had no interest in the Iron Throne, perhaps even signing an agreement to that effect. That would be somewhat believable too because you could "suggest" that Mhoried is already aiding Alamie in creating a restored Greater Duchy. Your argument might be that the other powers should consider whether they want a house with a direct traceable line to one of the ancient great houses (who might be a possible contender) or a house descended from a collateral bastard, who lacks the dignity to make a true claim on the Iron Throne.

[Haelyn]

I would consider allying with the Western Imperial Temple.

One of the interesting dimensions here is that it is in the Western Imperial Temple's interest to see Alamie and Tuornen united under one ruler. It gives them a distinct advantage as the state religion -- with a 1/2 to 1/4-1/4 advantage, as opposed to their current 1/2-1/2 split in each realm. They also have a lot of money.

The problem there is that none of the other major powers (Avanil, Boeruine, Mhoried, or Ghoere) would normally want to see a restored Greater Duchy as it adds a fifth potential contender. However, they might see it as a possible counterbalance to the Mhoried-Alamie alignment.

You have a natural shared faith alignment with Avanil through the Western Imperial Temple. Ghoere has a natural interest in countering Mhoried's growing interest. And, after killing the Manslayer (whom the Archduke saw as a personal enemy), you might be able to get Boeruine to overlook your manuever. (His personality seems the most likely to consider "repaying" the debt of killing off one of his enemies.)

So, you might just be able to make it work -- maybe garnering aid from all three of the other major powers if you made it clear that you had no interest in the Iron Throne, perhaps even signing an agreement to that effect. That would be somewhat believable too because you could "suggest" that Mhoried is already aiding Alamie in creating a restored Greater Duchy. Your argument might be that the other powers should consider whether they want a house with a direct traceable line to one of the ancient great houses (who might be a possible contender) or a house descended from a collateral bastard, who lacks the dignity to make a true claim on the Iron Throne.

Wow. This is a really thorough, real-politic advice. My sincere thanks. I am planning to adopt segments of this advice. I will NOT sign an agreement that Tuornen is WILL not stake claim to the throne. There are two reasons: I do not plan to deny future regents of Tuornen their possbly legitimate claim. No one will believe it anyway.

However, I can personally claim to have no interest in being an Emperor.

Another reson why it might not work, is that I am not really a direct descendent of Dalton. I am in fact a Tuor, who have a claim to old dynasties on their own. My mother was Leila Flaertaes. Since you gave such a ridiculously good answer, can you suggest a way to make Alamie actually being aligned with Tuornen? I am thinking about using religious sentiments of the people to make that happen based on your post. But that seems inadaquate to allay the problems with the current dutchy. A military solution is simply inacceptable. Not only it has a good chance to fail, but it will make any future efforts difficult if not outright impossible.

[Nicholas Harrison]

I tend to think military solutions are the most practical and realistic. You can't really hope to reunite the Duchy without employing that.

The Western Imperial Temple would probably be a good resource there -- since they have ties to both realms. They could assert that your line has done what the Alams have been unable or unwilling to do by eliminating the Manslayer. Another PR move might be to "recapture" the northern province that Alamie lost to the Five Peaks. Both of those would show that you're taking on the lordly responsibilities that the Alams have neglected.

I don't know how much you can do in-character to uncover the Duke's plot involving the toymaker. However, that would be a pretty good move if it comes out. You could assert that the Duke had pulled troops to protect the people -- building up the knightly garrison. You could even try to plant a story of other kids (Alamien children) who had disappeared and the Duke covered it up so that he could use the toymaker against the Tuors. The Western Imperial Temple could help spread that story as well -- citing it as a reason they might decide the Alams were no longer rightful rulers. Crimes against children are pretty potent weapons.

Finally, if the Alams were to take an action against Ghoere's interests -- or if an agent of Alam were to do so of his/her own accord and you were to say that the agent was acting on the Duke's orders. (I know there are some guilds in the south that belong to them.) You could use that to get Ghoere's support and you could also claim that it was the Duke acting against the common people -- possibly inciting a popular rebellion that you would move in (with the other major powers) to support. (I've always said that the guilds are the truest representation of the commoner. They're associations of free craftsmen -- rather than the greedy, corporate business interests they're so commonly portrayed as. And, the provide all sorts of medieval social services.) Ghoere's guilds might even be willing to hatch a few of these plots to help undermine one of Mhoried's allies.

[AndrewTall]

The question for me is who are the heirs in Alamie? The current bunch may be rotten, but sooner or later they will be replaced by the next generation - who might be very interested in support against rivals, even from Tuornen - look at it from their perspective, an alamie scion who is betrothed to your heir is a sure winner if they inherit, and heirs have all sorts of ways to get themselves disinherited or die young...

Of course your people may not want a united duchy either, particularly if the Alamian heir is seen as the dominant partner.

[vota dc]

Five Peaks is the Birthright version of Afghanistan, also even if you manage to occupy and mantain it then Boeruine would border only with Talinie, Avanil & vassals, and your realm.

[Nicholas Harrison]

I don't think the Five Peaks is quite as bad as you suggest. You could make a reasonable argument that the provinces which were originally part of other duchies might be easier to reclaim (i.e. Puinol was originally part of Cariele and Sufhanie was originally part of Alamie).

I also wouldn't argue for an invasion of the entire area -- just the single province that was "lost" by the Duke of Alamie. Perhaps, you could even mount a coordinated assault with Cariele and enlist Mheallie Bireon's aid. She has holdings in Tuornen and I'm sure she could be convinced to contribute -- as she'd be taking two provinces with holdings held by her rivals in Dhoesone, adding one of them to the puppet government in Cariele. If you played your cards right (promising her the guild holdings and maybe even a marriage alliance between Entier Gladinil and Tuornen's regent), she might even fund the invasion.

[huehar]

It is long time ago but if you are still here: may I have a question? How did you catched the piece between Avan and Boeruine? I am facing with the problem now and I have no idea how to influence or persuade them to sheathe the sword. I would welcome any ideas...

[Haelyn]

It is long time ago but if you are still here: may I have a question? How did you catched the piece between Avan and Boeruine? I am facing with the problem now and I have no idea how to influence or persuade them to sheathe the sword. I would welcome any ideas...

Not an easy task. I did not really engineer any peace. It happened sadly due to the warweariness of either side.

If your group played Sword and Crown it is even harder due to actions of Aubrae Avan.

However, the way to do so would be somehow engineer a united front with a common enemy. Roubhe comes to mind, so does a direct danger from the Gorgon. There is no way I think either to bow down to the other or some other reagent. But they can combine strengths if the danger to both is palpable.

[Kell]

I have thought a bit about Tuornen and how it sits in a horrible position in re. the two major powers on its border, the Elf and Alamie...not to mention having Endier to contend with at least financially and even raiders from the Five Peaks! Quite a bit to contend with.

If I were to ever play Tuornent the things I would focus on would be:

Resolving the issue of the "Big Two" on my borders would have to be first. I would tell Avan that if his military crossed my borders I would swear alliance with his foe and open the door to Boeruine. I would also tell Boeruine that if his military crossed my borders I would choose alliance with Avanil and open my borders to the Avans to cross against Boeruine freely. Conversely if they both respected my borders I would be more than happy to agree to combined efforts against Rhuobhe. It would be a delicate balancing act with these two military powerhouses to say the least...but if I were playing the character Laela Flaertes I would probably ask for the Avan and Boeruine families to send suitors for a while just to delay and grant me some time.

As for Endier, I would ally with Kalien...for sure. He already dislikes Alam; so granting him favored Guild status in Tuornen would perhaps pave the way for what I would really be after: Caine. Tuornen needs a capable Wizard to protect against both Rhuobhe and Alamie. Kalien and Caine would be a priority to say the least.

I wouldn't trust Rhuobhe as far as I could throw his twisted tower. Elf blood in my veins or no, the fella just hates humans way too much to ever trust him.

Placing my military primarily in the provinces of Haesrien, Monsedge and Ghonallison kills three birds with one stone:

1) protects against raids from the Five Peaks
2) the south is protected from Alamie mainly by the river (no bridges means a number of ships gathering to ferry forces across would give me an alert) so the northern provinces being garrisoned protects against Alamie pushing quickly across the border
3) Gives ME a staging ground to use against the only places I can really safely expand (if at all): The Five Peaks and Alamie.

Tuornen needs at LEAST two units of scouts: one in Alamsreft and one in Ghonallison. This keeps the entire border with Alamie scouted as well as the two provinces with the Five Peaks.

Deter Alamie further by openly being friendly with Mhoried (for the betterment of all Anuire against the Gorgon). Not an open alliance that would anger Avanil or Boeruine; but actually pulling those nations with me into talks with Mhoried at least regarding the Gorgon (and as many others as possible too).

Defense, Defense, Defense...keep up a solid defense until the realm is very stable and has a solid treasury built up.

Then attack Alamie. It is the only path really for Tuornen to have any hope. If it is possible to unite Tuornen and Alamie quickly, Tuornen becomes a very powerful realm of 17 provinces...which would make it one of the most powerful in Anuire if invasions could be staved off from Avan and Boeruine at least long enough to raise the military to a level equal to what Tuornen/Alamie previously had apart but now together...things get much more interesting.

If Tuornen can't take Alamie, then Tuornen is doomed to a future of mediocrity at best and conquest by others at worst.

If Tuornen CAN take Alamie and not be crushed quickly while trying by Avanil or Boeruine (launching the invasion of Alamie after perhaps arranging a war between Boeruine and Avan in Taeghas), then Tuornen can then safely expand into northern territory. The Five Peaks and Thurazor are targets no human realm would really care about...even Cariele could be open to conquest really. A solid alliance with Mhoried could be done then in opposition to Ghoere...even an outright marriage between the Mhor's family and Tuornen's would be likely.

The key is just surviving at first though...

[AndrewTall]

To win as Turonen is, in my mind, to take to long game.

A one-war-win over Alam is inevitable defeat - no such paragon warrior would be tolerated by Boeruine/Avanil/Ghoere as such a Tuornen would be a clearly dangerous rival.

But a Tuornen which used a reasonable pretext to snip off 1 or 2 of Alamie's northern provinces and forced a peace wouldn't look so dangerous as to force war with the big 3 - but would shift the balance of power with Alamie making its eventual defeat highly probable, allow Tuornen to build a much more credible army, and make a common front with the Mhor who also has goblin issues.

Otherwise Tuornen should use diplomacy to deter action against it while focusing on internal growth - something a poor leader like Carilon Alam would find harder to do than a diplomat like Duchess Flaertes.

[Osprey]

I have been running a solo Pathfinder Birthright game for a PC who is the Paladin regent of the Militant Order of Cuiraecen (Mhoried, Ghoere, Tuornen, Imp City).
In this game, Laela Flaertes (1/2 elf female NG bard) is an early ally, who asks for help and adventuring companionship in hunting monster, goblin, and giant threats from the Five Peaks. With some multiple adventures and growing success and trust, friendship develops, and later, a romantic involvement that leads eventually to marriage in the current game time. (It also leads to an angry Eyeless One casting a Gate realm spell that opens 6 portals and lets Abbyssal armies pour forth into Haesrien on the wedding night, but that's a another tale!).

So I have been running Laela and Tuornen as a primary ally NPC, thinking about all sides as we go, and have come up with a few strategies and running tactics I think would work:
1. Take over and expand the Guilds of Tuornen, starting with a growing monopoly in Haesrien. Target 1 guilder at a time as a rival; create guild holdings (the slow part), stockpile RP, then lead realm actions to contest all of a rival's guilds at one time, usually for 2 months in a row to destroy most or all of them in 1 season. Then Rule your own guilds up in their place, construct some internal trade routes (Tuornen is ideal with its diverse terrain for internal trade between provinces). I left Guilder Kalien for 2nd to last but dealt with him eventually too (the characters were getting higher level, and Kalien is way less scary at that point). Years later PAI of Avanil is the final guilder to fall, but as Avan's pet he is left alone for quite some time until Laela is ready to deal with Avan himself as a political threat.
2. With the massive financial and regency boost of a growing monopoly of guilds and trade within the duchey, Laela can afford to start mustering and supporting a growing professional army of veteran troops, as well as strengthening fortifications in Haesrien and other key provinces (Tuor's Hold becomes her #2 province and fortress, commanding the river junction opposite Endier and competing for the same trade spot).
3. With additional military security, Laela can make her bid to clean up the influence of foreign law regents (GK was kicked out long ago, but AB and DA remain). There's more than 1 way to do this, but the goal is to kick out 1st Aeric Boeruine (the slightly easier target), then a few seasons later make the final push to get rid of Darien Avan. This is one of the hardest but most important challenges for Tuornen to overcome and be truly independent. It could be many years of domain time passing before the regent of Tuornen can take such a step, but it should always be a goal. The better she can fully control her law, the more she can relax a little when it comes to the political threats that Boeruine and Avanil's regency pools can represent.

So how does she deal with those regency pools when contesting law holdings of Avan and Boeruine? I think different DM's will see many different opportunities for story options here, not to mention the infinite interpretations of how Avan and Boeruine would be acting both before and after such an event, but here's how I played it out in my game:
Laela uses long-distance Espionage on the Taeghas-Boeruine border in the 1st month of a season (Summer of 558 MR in my game). With herself and a hand-selected band of veteran bard and rogue agents (including a strong Spymaster Lt. to run the 2nd band), she robbed Darien Avan's tax collectors in Portage and Bayside, and plants a few of pieces of evidence (backed by bardic enchantments and illusions as needed) to convince Avan's lawmen that Boeruine's men are the ones who robbed them.
The predicted result happens (with a strong Espionage check): Darien Avan is pissed off, and launches Espionage then a multi-Contest action against Boeruine's hidden law holdings in Taeghas, which starts a heavy RP bidding war between the 2; in my game the dice and advantage of being the aggressor in Contest led to Avan destroying all 3 level 0 law holdings that AB had there).
So month 2 and 3 (Avan with domain initiative has already played his 1st and 2nd actions of the season) Laela Flaertes, with a large pool of regency ready, launches her Contest realm action on every Darien Avan law holding in Tuornen (a 4 x province action: 2 x L3, 2 x L0 haw holdings are contested). The provinces of Tuor's Hold and Nabhriene become the heavy battlegrounds (DA 3 law in each, Laela 0). I even gave Avan very high RP reserves at the start of the season, as he is a cautious one, but after 1st battling with Boeruine (80 RP spent by each), his remaining reserves get depleted enough that Laela can overcome him (DA spends *another* 80 RP in month 2, and Laela spends 75 RP to counter and easily defeat him then). Month 3 is a cleanup, where she drops another Contest Law realm action against remaining DA AND AB law holdings (Boeruine's are 3 x level 0 at this point).
Fearing their more major rivals, neither regent spends more RP in month 3 (Aeric Boeruine laughs when he hears of the thrashing DA gets in month 2, then realizes it's his turn the following month, and decides to conserve his not-so-large remaining RP reserves rather than risk losing them all for a few level 0 holdings against a clearly strong opponent with an unknown amount of her own regency left).
Fallout: In 1 season, Laela Flaertes rids Tuornen of foreign law holdings altogether, and the following season will begin to rule up her own law holdings in their place. Another season later she is contesting PAI guild holdings out of Nabhriene and elsewhere, easily winning while spending far less regency than PAI does trying to hold on without Avan's law backing him up anymore.
Other consequences are an irritated Aeric Boeruine and an outraged Darien Avan and PAI, which could mean a lot of things...but as long as Boeruine remains a true rival, Avan may not feel he can afford military retaliation without some strong allies joining in (I was thinking Alamie and Ghoere joining Avanil in a 3-way invasion might be good though, heheh).

RESULT: A very powerful and independent duchey - 7 provinces (which have been getting steadily ruled higher over the years) under 1 regent who controls the Land, Law, and Guilds, plus numerous trade routes. This leaves Tuornen wealthy, well-protected by a strong military, and backed by regularly large Regency reserves. Now easily the match or better of most other Anuirean regents in power and influence, Laela Flaertes is in a position to do almost anything she wants politically.

SIDEBAR: Her Sidhelien half-brother is a (minor) blooded Wizard and another major NPC who adventures with the group, and after they defeat the Eyeless One will be stepping in to take control of the sources of the Five Peaks and Tuornen, eventually Alamie and Thurazor too). So that covered the other major weakness in Turonen, needing a good wizard to protect it.
Also...in my game, Caine of Endier is later slain by Rhuobhe Manslayer after Caine tries to stop Rhuobhe contesting his level 5 source in Elevesnemiere, and gets ambushed by the Manslayer and bloodthefted. A confrontation with Rhuobhe is due to happen sooner or later (and as the party is hitting 18th-19th level in Pathfinder terms, they might be potentially capable of taking him! But I have made him a 28th level W/F/Eldritch Knight character, so we'll see just how strong they are!).