Pathfinder - Buildings and Birthright

[JakobLiar]

I am still working on building my game and in the process of trying to understand more and more how to combine the Pathfinder system and the Birthright game, I've come across a spot of confusion. In the Birthright system, Castles are built on different levels depending upon both law and province size. In the Pathfinder system, a Castle is a one-time build (at the apparent cost of 216,000 GP). I am currently in the process of trying to find a middle-ground or, perhaps, a way to do the Birthright version... however, in addition to being 216,000 GP, a Pathfinder Castle provides the following: Economy +2, Loyalty +2, Stability +2, Unrest -4, Fame +1.

So, while I am still trying to come up with an understanding of the Kingdom system for Pathfinder, I am trying to figure out things like this. Any suggestions, thoughts or ideas?

[JakobLiar]

Well, since I haven't gotten a response back, I have been considering how I want to stack it out. I think I might have an idea:

1st Tier - Unrest -1
2nd Tier - Loyalty +1
3rd Tier - Unrest -2
4th Tier - Stability +1
5th Tier - Economy +1
6th Tier - Unrest -3
7th Tier - Loyalty +2
8th Tier - Stability +2
9th Tier - Economy +2
10th Tier - Fame +1, Unrest -4

Does that look acceptable?

[Thelandrin]

I think your list there is as good as any.

You might want to consider that BR castles are often taken to be province-wide fortifications, whereas the ones in the Campaign Guide I think more represent fortified law holdings in a city.

[JakobLiar]

I don't know, really. I've seen some of the games play out where the Castle is only around the Law holding and nothing else. You could siege the province, but not the holding because it was held intact with the Castle. Usually when I think about Castles, that is exactly how it seems to feel and read as in most games. I don't figure people try and Wall of China their province, especially when they expand... I mean, really, how do you make Wall of China 1 connect to Wall of China 2 without making it even more difficult and having to tear down sections and hope that nobody invades in the process?

[Sorontar]

How about working on something like something like this, where the provincial fortification concerns itself with the bureaucratic management in event of extreme events, not the law or miltary security. I have just given 0-4 to give an idea of the distinction between levels.

Provincial fortification:

0: No fortification. No communal shelters or storage.
1: Village barns and town halls. Limited protection against events like famines and fires.
2: Centralised emergency handling in counties. Regular maintainence of stone bridges and roads.
3: County treasuries and silos.
4: Multiple access points for major resources and communities, e.g. road and sea. Expert management of resources.

Law Holding fortification:

0: No fortification. No perscribed standards for gaols or barracks.
1: Village goals. Regularly village gates and walls.
2: Stone village walls for major cities. Independent barracks with stone walls and barracks and a permanent force.
3: Provincial gaols. Watchtowers on the major roads.
4: Fortified military buildings at strategic locations. Signalling established between strongholds. Multiple levels of protection for major cities with at least two stage entry points and geographical protection like moats.

The provincial fortifications reminds me of the different ways modern communities handle bushfires/wildfires during the summer and how there are centralised versus regional versus local aspects. The first is needed in order to get the big picture and to set the expected standards. The second helps manage the resources in times of need. The third is needed for immediate survival and recovery.

The law holding fortifications remind me of the ways leaders have tried to improve on the physical infrastructure of their military and constabulary. Things like long walls ala Great Wall of China and Hadrian's Wall versus the Maginot Line.

Of course, there always needs to be a distinction between the fortification level and provincial/holding level.

I suspect the fortification of a castle will fit better into the Law Holding Fortification levels or as a standalone exception to any fortification level. In other words, you can have a manor house/castle be heavily protected but it may not make a major contribution towards the law holding fortification or provincial fortification, dependenting on how it is managed.

Sorontar

[JakobLiar]

*nods and reads over it* I'll have to wait until I get coffee tomorrow, but it does sound like an interesting idea so far. About to head out for the night, but I am trying to take notes after having just bought some new pens and some paper.

[JakobLiar]

Been trying to think everything over. While sitting down and comparing the Pathfinder's rules on Kingdom-building/running to Birthright's (2nd Edition) kingdom-building/running... and its much more vast than I was thinking they were. I figured there were common pieces where I could put them together, but realized tonight that... well, BPs and GBs/RPs are different (alone not without being able to be converted, but with costs of buildings, actions, etc... it would be difficult) as well as Law/Guild/Temple/Source holdings and how they would work as compared to the multitude of buildings and the stats for Pathfinder. I know how Corruption and Crime work and, while interesting enough to have in a Kingdom game, it is more of something that can occur multiple times in a province, much less an actual Kingdom.

Pathfinder's 'Kingdoms' tend to be about ten times smaller than Birthright's Kingdoms, as one province from Birthright is at least 10 of their Hexes (they usually start with one) and a hex map doesn't seem to be all that big.

So, I think I'm just going to scrap trying to use Pathfinder buildings/kingdom system, maybe take a few ideas for the buildings from it but utilize it with the 2nd Edition system, and then look to Pathfinder for how to convert its mass combat system to 2nd Edition (even if I have to use the Charisma Reaction Adjustment as the modifier for Loyalty/Morale).

[Thelandrin]

I think the Kingmaker rules are excellent and could be great fun, but as you've noticed, they tend to support much smaller realms.

[JakobLiar]

I just don't like how its got a different feel from the GB/RP that I am used to. As well, you don't seem to get much money back in the game unless you are constantly adventuring. Trying to expand further out would be harder. Also, you would have to have a hex map of multiple regions, which sounds too difficult to do.

[Thelandrin]

Have you forgotten how little income tiny BR realms make? Admittedly, doing a hex map would be a bit of work, but the chap over at Half-Blogre did a few himself, e.g. http://www.halfblogre.com/2011/07/roesone-map/

[JakobLiar]

*eyes the Hex map and cries* I don't have /THAT/ much time on my hands.

And no, not really... I don't recall small realms getting all that little bit of GB. Normally they have a backup source of GB. Like Guilds or Alchemy.

[Lee]

I am still working on building my game and in the process of trying to understand more and more how to combine the Pathfinder system and the Birthright game, I've come across a spot of confusion. In the Birthright system, Castles are built on different levels depending upon both law and province size. In the Pathfinder system, a Castle is a one-time build (at the apparent cost of 216,000 GP). I am currently in the process of trying to find a middle-ground or, perhaps, a way to do the Birthright version... however, in addition to being 216,000 GP, a Pathfinder Castle provides the following: Economy +2, Loyalty +2, Stability +2, Unrest -4, Fame +1.

So, while I am still trying to come up with an understanding of the Kingdom system for Pathfinder, I am trying to figure out things like this. Any suggestions, thoughts or ideas?

Note that Castle in PF's books (I assume you're talking about Ultimate Campaign and Kingmaker?) are the ultimate in the defensive buildings that you can put in a settlement. It upgrades from Garrison, Barracks, Watchtower, etc. I think you'd be better off thinking of Castle as the Level 4+ Castle in BR, the early/smaller buildings are the Level 1, Level 2, Level 3 Castles or fortified holdings.

[Lord_Johnny]

So my wife and I have decided to begin a Birthright Campaign as well, and are trying to convert as many things to Pathfinder as well. If you come up with anything, and are willing to share, that would be awesome. We plan on doing the same.
That being said, what I have found / things that have made sense to me on how the fortifications work already, makes a good deal of sense. Maybe this is just how the previous BR DM did things, but it makes sense to me. Here goes:
Lvl 0 holdings cost 1 GB and 1 Regency.
For level 1+ holdings, add 1 GB and 1 Regency per level.

Example: You are building a level 3 holding (Max is 10) so, to build it to level 0 you spend 1 GB, and 1 Regency. Level 1 would be another 1 and 1. Total cost would be 4 GB and 4 regency. (1 + 1 for each additional level)
As Gold Bars (GB) are appoximately 2k gp, the math for a level 10 holding (of any type including a castle) is 132,000 gp. That seems a little more expensive that what you were saying about Pathfinder, but not horribly so.

Anyway, just a thought on the math side of it.

[Lord_Johnny]

As a side note, I'd also like to point out that alot of the things you're trying to get the Birthright Castles to do are already covered by the Law holdings.
Particularly the loyalty and unrest things, as upgraded Law holdings are the ones that really let your laws actually be handled and listened to, while also keeping the population from outright rebellion.