(ADnD 2e) Province Level, Cultures, and Technology Available

[Delazar]

Recently I watched Season One of Vikings (great show, by the way), and it made me wonder a bit about my previous Birthright campaigns, a couple of which were set in the Rjurik Highlands.

One thing that players try to do as soon as possible, is (rightly so) to raise the level of their provinces to the maximum allowed by terrain type.

Yet, by looking at the information published in the official supplements, it is rare to see a province at level 7, and especially among the Rjurik and Vos, it is even difficult to see a province 5.

I was thinking of limiting the max level of a province, not only by terrain type, but also by culture.

I may make an exception for Capital provinces, or coastal cities, but in general I think that apply this limit would keep each culture more "true" to itself.

For example:

Anuireans, Brecht, Khinasi, Elves, Dwarves = Renaissance (max province level 7)
Rjurik, Orogs = Middle Ages (max province level 5)
Vos, Goblins, Gnolls = Dark Ages (max province level 3)

Or maybe, just make it more difficult for some cultures to raise their province to higher levels?

What do you think?

[Sorontar]

So what happens if a culture takes over a province? Does the maximum population size and technology level of the province increase or decrease based on who is now in control?

What if the population is struck by epidemics and the level decreases? Does this mean that there are potentially more source levels in Anuirean provinces than the Rjurik Higlands?

Sorontar

[Delazar]

So what happens if a culture takes over a province? Does the maximum population size and technology level of the province increase or decrease based on who is now in control?

It's actually a good question... But what happens when a culture takes over a province from another culture? When the Anuireans invaded Rjurik, did the Rjurik all suddenly become Anuireans?



What if the population is struck by epidemics and the level decreases? Does this mean that there are potentially more source levels in Anuirean provinces than the Rjurik Higlands?

Sorontar

I'm not sure I understand this... Maximum source level is already established by the books. It is only the maximum Province Level that is (would be) limited by culture.

[AndrewTall]

Maximum province level is, ultimately, limited by the availability of resources (primarily food) and technology (i.e. the ability to get food).

The Rjurik are further north so possibly beyond the wheat zone limiting them to poorer harvests than the "civilised" three nations and are I suspect supposed to be slightly less technologically advanced than the three civilised types, so putting a population limit on is certainly easy to explain.

But... trade has a way of balancing things. The City of Anuire for example is L10 despite having no land of its own to harvest (although you could say it trades its technology/culture with Anuire).

Also the sea provides sustenance and the anuireans are supposed to be poor sailors making it hard to argue that the Rjurik aren't better fisherfolk.

In practice the maximum population levels along the Taelshore aren't even close to reached though - levelling up to 4-6 is quite feasible under vanilla rules, and that would vastly increase the population.

I have to admit I prefer the rules that limit growth - RoE had time-based delays via growth points, I've used non-linear scales to increase costs, etc.

I also prefer, to a degree, the concept that province level is the "organised" level of the population not the actual level, so a L1 province and a L3 province may have the same number of "people", but the L1 province people may not answer to the crown, or may lack transport/communication links, etc meaning that they generate less GB/RP - that makes dealing with the "wow we just quadrupled the population in one game year, people grow up fast around here" issue.

[Sorontar]

I'm not sure I understand this... Maximum source level is already established by the books. It is only the maximum Province Level that is (would be) limited by culture.

I realise that you are talking AD&DII Birthright, but the approach taken for the BRCS 3ed is that the maximum source level (source potential) for a province is related to the maximum province level. If you have too much industry and population, you have less source. By changing the province level of a region according to culture, you may also be changing the source potential of the province.

To quote from the BRCS:

Each terrain type has a specific magic potential. The sum of a province's level and the level of sources within it cannot normally exceed the magic potential rating of the terrain (see Table 7-1: Magic potential by terrain). The difference between a province's magic potential and its province level is its maximum source level .
... If a province's level increases, its maximum source level immediately decreases in response, possibly causing the loss of one or more regent mage's source holdings.

Sorontar

[Delazar]

I realise that you are talking AD&DII Birthright, but the approach taken for the BRCS 3ed is that the maximum source level (source potential) for a province is related to the maximum province level. If you have too much industry and population, you have less source. By changing the province level of a region according to culture, you may also be changing the source potential of the province.

Sorontar

Isn't this the same way it works in AD&D2e? In any case, I would be limiting the level that can be reached, not the level of the province itself.

Example:

A Province 0/7
Vos could raise this province to a maximum of 3/4
Rjurik could raise this province to a maximum of 5/2
Anuirean could raise this province to a maximum of 7/0

PS: "level" comes up way too often in the terminology, it may be confusing sometimes... :)

[Delazar]

I have to admit I prefer the rules that limit growth - RoE had time-based delays via growth points, I've used non-linear scales to increase costs, etc.


Where can I find this RoE? I'd be interested to read how they tackled the matter.

[AndrewTall]

http://www.twilightpeaks.net

http://www.twilightpeaks.net/forum/

There should be a downloads section with various iterations of Bjorn's ruleset.

If you have trouble with the site for some reason and pm me your email address I can email you the ruleset I have.

[vota dc]

Even a 10 level province isn't so much populated. If city of Anuire is level 10, then the province of Anuire that is a lot larger could be level 15 with the combo land and technology, but max level is 10 for balance reasons. 90% of Cerilia provinces are big enough to be 10 level with the exception of bad dwelling terrain like mountains.
But the second suggestion to make harder for some cultures to level up provinces seems good.

[Delazar]

http://www.twilightpeaks.net

http://www.twilightpeaks.net/forum/

There should be a downloads section with various iterations of Bjorn's ruleset.

If you have trouble with the site for some reason and pm me your email address I can email you the ruleset I have.

I had a look at the site, but info seems to be a bit all over the place... it probably makes sense for those that played in that game... :)

so I'd like to receive the ruleset by mail, PM is coming!

[arpig2]

Where can I find this RoE? I'd be interested to read how they tackled the matter.
Here's a PDF version of the RoE rules I made.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1yvx2qs7d4lnm0y/PDF%20Regent%20Guide%20v.3.5%20Draft%202.21%20%282 011-01-29%29.pdf

[Delazar]

Here's a PDF version of the RoE rules I made.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1yvx2qs7d4lnm0y/PDF%20Regent%20Guide%20v.3.5%20Draft%202.21%20%282 011-01-29%29.pdf

Woah, 279 pages! Wonderful work!

That will take a bit to absorb, but It will be interesting, thanks!

[arpig2]

It is indeed wonderful work, but it isn't my work, it is all Bjørn's (I think he is Green Knight on here), I just took his Word file and converted it to PDF and added the bookmarks.

[Delazar]

I had a look at the RoE ruleset, it's definitely "too detailed" for my needs.

I'm thinking of going with some simle rule in order to limit Province Level raising too fast, and to limit level for certain cultures.

Something along the lines of:

Rule Province:
This action takes a Domain Turn (meaning three consecutive Domain Actions) to perform.
You must spend RP & GB equal to 3 times X*.
Success number is 10 + X*.
You cannot spend RP to improve your chances of success.
You have a modifier on the roll based on the culture of the Province (which is not necessarily the same as your culture).

Anuireans, Brecht, Khinasi = +0
Rjurik = -3
Vos, Goblinoids = -6

A roll of 20 is always a success.

* Current Province Level +1

May be too harsh...

[arpig2]

May be too harsh...
Well the province ruling rules have always been the weak point of Birthright, realism-wise.

[AndrewTall]

May be too harsh...

Not necessarily, I worked along the lines of cost=desired province level squared, with the construction rules used to recognise the time required. The non-linear scale meant that ruling 1-2 was easy, 3-4 was a long term goal, and raising 5 or higher a table-top only sort of thing. Although I did consider various "softening" dm-fiat things like adventure outcomes, war-driven migrations, and so on - basically I didn't want high level provinces popping up willy-nilly "over-night".

[Delazar]

I guess I'll go for it and see how it pans out... thanks everybody for the inspiring comments!

[AKjeldsen]

I would suggest using a modifier based on climate rather than on culture. Looking at the Rjurik, Vos and Goblin realms, some of them are actually rather developed. Thurazor, for example, with two provinces each of (4), (3) and (2) is more or less comparable to its neighbours in Talinie and Dhoesone, or even to those further south such as Alamie. Molochev has very decent province levels as well, and Kal Kalathor of course has the second highest province level in Cerilia after the Imperial City.

On the other hand, most of the very undeveloped realms tend to be very far to the north, like Hogunmark, Hjolvar or Velenoye. The western Khinasi realms are mostly very undeveloped outside of the capital city as well.

So that suggests we're actually seeing an effect of climate and terrain. So instead I would perhaps try something like:
Arctic, desert = -6
Subarctic, arid = -3
Others = 0

[arpig2]

The RoE rules take climate, terrain, race AND culture into account.