House rules regarding rule province

[Question]

Many PBEMs seem to think the rule province is "unrealistic" as it implies that in one season,you get several dozen thousands of people to appear.IIRC the interpretation is the people are there,but you are bringing them under your control.

The problem is pretty much all of these house rules turn the rule province action into something that no one ever uses,because the incentive to do has effectively dissapeared.It also means that those players who start up with low level provinces are fucked,while those who start with higher level provinces have a incredible advantage.High level province with low holdings are much more preferably to low level provicnes with high holdings.....as it is still possible to raise holding levels but not province levels.

You want to make it take longer to rule a province?Harder?Very simple.....increase the incentive to do so.

As amazingly as it sounds this crucial part of a game balance formalue has to exist.If you make something much harder but dont touch the rewards,no one is going to do it.

No one is going to kill the gorgon if doing so just gives you 1 xp.No bloodline score or strength modification.No RP.No uber loot,no stash of tighmaevril weapons.No fame,no ingame events like the chamberlain crowning you the next emperor.Nothing,but one lousy experience point.

Do you really think players will aspire to kill the gorgon,a monster at 900+ hp and all those special rules,if doing so nets them a grand total of 1 xp?Of course not.

The same logic applies here.If you want to make ruling provinces take years ingame to achieve........then by god you have to make province levels incredibly important,not just "oh look +1 GB/RP per level!!!50 years to recoup investment!!!!!!"

It just pains me to see DMs start up PBEMs and then go "but rule province in BRCS isnt realistic!!!!!now its uber hard!!!!" and just totally forget that by making it uber hard with no other modifications they just made it useless,and hanged a large "DO NOT USE THIS ACTION OR YOU GET FUCKED OVER ROYALLY" sign on it.

Im amazed they didnt go even further and nerf the hell out of everything else.

"omgz bless land +1 province level?!?!BS nothing in real life can do that!!!!now it taks 100 GBs and a DDC of 100+100xprovince level!!!!!!"

Thoughts?

[irdeggman]

I moved this thread to the Royal Library since it is basically a discussion of house rules and not the BRCS itself (i.e., it doesn't lend itself to aiding in the completion of the BRCS).

[Green Knight]

Oddly enough, I prefer not to see too much change in province levels over
the course of a few years.

Has to do with suspension of disbelief for me.

B

[Osprey]

I would't mind the standard "one Rule Province attempt per season" if there were more easily-occuring ways for provinces to lose levels as well. here are a few ideas as to how to do that:

Allow for more bad weather, famine, disease, pestilence as random events significant enough to lower a province's level by one (permanently).

Have the "Contest Province" domain action work similarly to Contest Holding in the BRCS (success destroys one level of the province, may only attempt once per season).

Have a "Raid Province" domain action (something I've proposed before): basically quick and dirty pilaging that doesn't require a full month of prior occupation, but is less lucrative than than taking two months to occupy and thouroughly loot a province.


Integrating all 3 of these would be best of all, as it could provide multiple ways for a DM...er, I mean "enemy regents and ill fortune," to counter a realm's rapid growth.

It does, of course add a bit of extra complexity and book-keeping to the domain campaign, but it also allows it to remain much more dynamic and therefore exciting than a slow and stagnant "provinces rarely change" style of play. A certain level of unpredictability, and players' unease of their PCs losing what they've built, are always good for keeping things on the edge. And that's a game that keeps 'em coming back. :cool:

Osprey

[Mantyluoto]

The easiest way to stop your players raising provinces levels to many times is to give them plenty to do. My campaign has been running for a few weeks (real time) and 2 Years (game time), we are concentraiting on domains not advetures, and my player rules Medoere, his intial plan was to have Medoeres 3 provinces up to lvl 5 in a short space of time. Well he has only managed to get Caerwil to lvl 3 and ive chucked loads of stuff at him, holy wars, Reavers, Goblins, Mercenaries.....

Keep them busy and they wont have time or actions to raise province levels.

Manty

[Question]

Damn,your campaign moves fsat......equavelent to PBEMs would be nearly 1 year IRL for 2 years ingame.If only PBEMs could achieve this kind of fast-paced action........

Its very simple.You want to make raising province levels hard?Nearly impossible?Increase the benefits.I said this numerous times in the original post.You cant have both a balanced game and a useless action,sorry.

If you dont want players to increase province levels just honestly flat out say : i am not allowing this action to be taken in my game.Simple isnt it?Why bother screwing around with making it have a DDC of 100 or some other nonsense?

If you want to make raising one province level take years ingame you need to vastly increase the effect province levels have on RP/GB collection,maybe some other effects as well.This of course leads to a further gap between those lucky enough to start with high level provinces instead of lower level provinces,which further leads to more imbalances and certain domains being much more powerful than intended,which basically means a serious balancing problem all around.

You dont just say "okay i make this harder to do" and VOILA everything works out all peachy,game balancing is never as easy as that.Some realms were deliberately designed as weak,but with the potential to grow stronger and hold their own.....the sword rust tribes in vosgaard was designed for this,someone playing it would need to rule the provinces to a higher level before seriously considering a war of conquest.Imagine in a campaign setting where the rule province action is either removed totally or has serious limitations placed on it.....so serious that one might as well not use it at all.....the sword rust tribes will never,ever become a serious power capable of swooping down from the mountains and laying waste to everything,they will forever remain a thorn in the side,occasionally raiding,but nothing else.The player playing it gets pissed because he sees himself as nothing but the "oh hey i will just annoy velonye again with a raid,since i have no chance winning a full out war with multiple realms even if the campaign lasted for 10 years IRL" guy.

But if you want to screw with the action and making it uber hard you have to take it upon yourself to fix everything that arises from it.An example would be the RTS game based on WH40K.You cant just say "oh hey i will make space marines uber,because according to the background they are supposed to be,and one squad beats full pop cap of orks because thats what happens in the fluff", without getting everyone screaming "FUCK THE FLUFF!FIX THE BALANCE!".

Of course you are the DM,you have final say,you can have gorgon marry the chamberlain in your campaign,blah blah blah,but IMHO game balance has to be maintained for true gameplay fun.

I can tell you that one thing game company balancing teams do not want to hear is "but its not realistic!" arguments,for a good reason.

[Mantyluoto]

i like the option of raising province level, yes if abused it can lead to lots of lvl 10 provinces, but if done right it can show that the country is growing economically, comercially and socially (Phew big words from me). the extra people can come from within the countries borders or from without. Emigration happens IRL so why not in game.

I'm sorry but i think if it aint broke why fix it.

[Question]

Okay after checking the rules i want to confirm something.Under BRCS is gold allowed to modify the rule province roll or not?It specifies no RP only.

If not,then well its a LOT harder than i thought it was.

Ruling a level 4 to 5 would take 4 turns of ruling(on average) to suceed,costing 20 GB in the process.

If someone in a PBEM can mass rule provinces to level 10 constantly with those kind of rules something is not right.It would take years IRL to get a level 10 province from a level 5 province.

[Thomas_Percy]

This argument about Gorgon and 1 XP is ridiculous.
If someone play Brt to cash XP for such "monsters" let him go away and play some computer game like Quake.
Gorgon is toughtest enemy of all setting (maybe all settings) so killing him is an end of campaign. Killing him is to become mightiest creature in the world with no challenge and no need for further XP.

And about province levels.
I think it cannot be tied so closely to population. No suspension of disbelieve is no solution, there is a place to make absolutely new nice-to-play and reliable rules.

[Question]

Lol?I specifically said the ONLY bonus was 1 xp.The campaign does NOT end.You do not gain any fame or honour for killing him.Everything continues as normal except the players go "WTF i killed the gorgon and got 1 xp?I should be emperor of anuire FFS."

[irdeggman]

Lol?I specifically said the ONLY bonus was 1 xp.The campaign does NOT end.You do not gain any fame or honour for killing him.Everything continues as normal except the players go "WTF i killed the gorgon and got 1 xp?I should be emperor of anuire FFS."

Nothing?

I would award a Great Heritage Template to the character (and thus his decendents). The family of the person who killed the Gogon definitely deserves such honor. (Note this is DM fiat so no LA for it).

[Question]

Well thats reasonable obviously.......but im referring to a situation of "lets make doing something useless so no one will want to do it!".

I still want to know if its allowed to spend GB to support a rule province action.

[irdeggman]

Well thats reasonable obviously.......but im referring to a situation of "lets make doing something useless so no one will want to do it!".

I still want to know if its allowed to spend GB to support a rule province action.

First off I don't really know what you mean by a useless action - since the one you pointed out I gave an example of a benefit to be provided.

As far as using GB to modify a rule province action - the answer is no. In fact you can't use GB to modify any rule action. The only times GB can be used to modify an action are when it is specifically spelled out in the action, e.g., Diplomacy.

In fact for a Rule Province action no one other the than the regent performing the action can use any RP to support or oppose the action. the actual text says that RP can't be used to support, but it actually means that other regents can't use any.

Standard domain action: Each domain normally is allowed one standard domain action per domain round. A regent's standard domain action represents the primary focus or goal of the regent's court and agents for the domain round. The regent need not be physically present for his domain to take a standard action; only routine communication is required. If the regent is unable to communicate to his realm, the character's player should still be allowed to select a reasonable domain action for the domain that represents the court's attempts to maintain the realm in the regent's absence. A regent's court can be reasonably expected to perform the same actions as the regent would; a regent's courtiers make it their business to have a fair idea of the regent's opinions on important matters. A regent can spend regency to support his domain's standard domain actions, regardless of his personal involvement.





In addition, other holdings of the same type as your active holding can support or oppose your action. Using holdings to oppose or support another regent's actions is not a domain action. Allied holdings of the same type provide a bonus equal to their level. Opposed holdings of the same type provide a penalty equal to their level. Holdings of different types cannot add or subtract their level to your check. Any applicable regent may order such support or opposition once he is aware of the action. Support from holding level is highly visible, all regents (and residents) of the area will be aware of the regent's support, opposition, or apathy regarding the action.






Regency Points: +1 per RP spent to support, -1 per RP spent to oppose. Regents may spend RP to support or oppose most domain action checks. The province regent and any regent that has any holding of any level in the province in which the domain action is taking place may spend RP to support or oppose the action. There is no limit (save availability) to how many RP may be spent to support or oppose an action.

Spending RP to support or oppose an action is done in reverse domain initiative order. Each eligible regent may spend RP to support or oppose the domain action check. Each regent must be offered the opportunity to spend regency each round. Bidding continues round by round, until a round passes in which no regent bids additional RP, a which point the domain action check can be made.

Although it is obvious when a holding level opposes or supports an action, the spending of RP is not necessarily so. RP can be spent "anonymously" at the regent's desire. The player is always aware of the RP being spent against them (and can use this information during bidding), but the character may not be aware of the mastermind behind the forces opposing his action.





The base DC for the domain action is 10 + the current level of your province. Unlike most standard actions, no holding levels can be applied to support or oppose this action and RP cannot be spent to support or oppose the action. A court can only take this action once per domain turn. Regardless of whether this action fails or succeeds, an additional attempt to Rule Province (even a different province) in the same domain turn automatically fails.

[Thomas_Percy]

Well thats reasonable obviously.......but im referring to a situation of "lets make doing something useless so no one will want to do it!".
No one wants to kill The Gorgon and nobody even wanted from one and half milenium because there is only 1XP reward.

[Question]

Major miscommunication problem.

Firstly i was under the assumption you cant use RP to modify rule provinces.So i was like "you cant modify it already and you want to nerf it somemore?WTF?" hence my example of ruling level 4 to 5 taking 4 turns,etc,etc.

At any rate most PBEMs nerf it to HELL anyway,needing 2 years IRL to get back your investment is obviously an over nerf,and they might as well outlaw the action TOTALLY.

My example of the gorgon was an analogy of this...since no one is going to try to kill the gorgon for 1 xp why not just outright say "hey you cant kill the gorgon,he instantly kills you with uber h4x".

I am not saying gorgon is useless to kill under standard rules,it was just an analogy.

[Osprey]

In reply to Duane:

As far as using GB to modify a rule province action - the answer is no. In fact you can't use GB to modify any rule action. The only times GB can be used to modify an action are when it is specifically spelled out in the action, e.g., Diplomacy.

Also Agitate - the only action in the BRCS where GB affect the action on a 1 for 1 basis.


In fact for a Rule Province action no one other the than the regent performing the action can use any RP to support or oppose the action. the actual text says that RP can't be used to support, but it actually means that other regents can't use any.

I have always been under the assumption that "RP cannot be spent to support or oppose this action" meant just that - why should the regent performing the action be the sole exception to this statement? It makes no sense from a game balance point of view, as ruling provinces then becomes ridiculously easy.

Also you quoted,

Regents may spend RP to support or oppose most domain action checks.

But not necessarily all domain action checks. Leaving us with the impression that there are exceptions to the general rule, and Rule Province seems to me to be the obvious one.
Allowing only one regent to support an action with RP, but no one oppose him, is horribly unbalanced, and just plain broken. I have a hard time imagining the author intended as you believe, it's just too blatantly broken.

In any case, I feel fairly confident that most every other BR player I've ever discussed the BRCS Rule Province action with (mainly here on the forums) was under the same assumption as I was, that RP may not affect the action at all.

Osprey

[Question]

Yea im thinking chapter 5 needs to be revised and correct wording implemented.

I believe source mages should be able to bid RP to oppose rule provinces, but ONLY if the rule action would cause his source to go down in level,so no lame "level 0 source stopping 2/9 province from ruling" scenarios.

Now as to why nobody should be able to oppose it.........why not?Its not like its a BAD thing for the other regents around......with possible exceptions of source regents.In fact most regents would want the ruler to rule the province.More province levels = more holding levels for temple/guild regents = more money/RP for them.This works out perfectly well for them.The only other exception to this rule i can think of are hostile law holders,in which case it might be worthwhile to allow law holding rulers to either support or oppose this action.

As to it being easy......im examing the context from a PBEM point of view, seeing as how BR is rarely played IRL anymore(to my knowledge at least).

Ruling province level 4 to 5.DC 14.4 GB.12 RP spent to support this check.Assuming no one opposes it under the rules i propose, and assuming you consider 1 GB equavelent to 1 RP,you get back your investment in 8 turns, or 8 months IRL,assuming 1 month = 1 turn and turn resolution is instant.Considering extensions, turn processing, etc it usaully means 1 year instead.

1 year to get back your investment before making any profit does not seem "easy" to me.

Of course you can factor in your administrate skill but thats capped your level +3.....otherwise you can(thereotically) get regents with very high bonuses to the check from administrate and full domain actions.In most cases it is highly unlikely the bonus exceeds +4.

There is of course the matter of the feats but most players/DMs consider them absolute cheese and far too overpowering, and some have removed it completely from their games, which does make the rule actions much more difficult and costly to achieve.In fact those feats might need a looking at.......