Interactive Birthright Map application - copyright issues ?

[dinadan]

Hi,

My name's Alexandre and I've been a fan of Birthright since 1995. I work as a web mapping application developer using OpenSource softwares such as OpenLayers, GeoExt, MapServer, etc.

About two years ago, I contacted Wizard of the Coast with the proposal to freely share an interactive web mapping application I made using the above technologies and paper maps of Faerun I scanned and spatially referenced. The result was a very simple map application that users could pan and zoom pretty much like GoogleMaps and with a basic "overland movement" calculator. That widget was main reason I wanted this application in the beginning: to be able to easily draw a line on the map representing a travel route taken by the players, which gave me the amount of time required to travel depending on the transport used in days and hours.

Now, I'm thinking about doing the same for the new small Birthright campaign I'm about to begin with some local friends. I'd like to create a new version of the application but built on top of Birthright maps.

Sorry for the long story, here are my questions: is it okay if I share my work ? Are the maps copyrighted and wouldn't allow me to share what I'd do ? That's the issue that happened with Wizard of the Coast. They didn't want me to publicly show my application. What about Birthright stuff ?

In brief, I'd do it anyway, but I want to know if I could make my work public. If so, it could lead to a public web site dedicated to the application, plus the source code would be hosted on Github.

Please, let me know how far I can get with this project.

Regards,

Alexandre

[Muaadeeb]

As long as you do not charge for your maps you will be fine. I for one would love to see what you have and how extensible your application would be.

Can you do it for the entire continent?

[Arius Vistoon]

I think you can.

But i know TSR/WoTC/Hasbro don't want give some legal license/authorization for the content of any setting/world until the 5th edition of AD&D come (in 2 years, i think). and i think after, they don't give too.

But in fact, you can use/share it if it's for no-commercial use or no-marketing use and if you don't do "bad" thing under the brand and say you have some no link/agreement with them.

Now, in the case of Birthright, you have an explicite agreement if your work is here, in this "official" website.

May be someone else can answer more better than me because i'm not sure...

[dinadan]

Muaadeeb, Arius Vistoon,

Thanks for your replies.

It would be entirely free and yes it could be as big as the whole continent. I have the original paper maps at home, so it would be fairly easy to scan them in color, in high definition, for a better "zoom-in" rendering.

For the location of the application itself, I'd be glad to see it hosted here. It requires a lot of server-side libraries installed though and I usually use Apache to publish them. I usually work with Linux Ubuntu servers. At start, I'd start be non-officially and freely publishing it on a dev machine I'd entirely control, then I'd need to talk to an admin here to move the application here. It would be quite complex IMHO, but possible.

This is a pretty big project and I'll work on it on my spare times so I expect it to take a while to see a first live version. The first version would show a plain version of the scanned map, but much more would be possible.

If people would be interested, I could load the map in a GIS application such as QuantumGIS, then digitally draw each feature one by one, and give each one informations and attributes. "What ?" I mean I'd use the drawing tool of that GIS app. to create each province, each forests, montains, lakes, etc. then assing 'names, rating, source, terrain_type, etc' attributes. In the web map application, using query tools, one would then be able to click on the map, let's say on Roesone, and get a popup with Roesone summary details in it. It would also be possible to browse the map using a map engine to draw them, which would make the zoom levels infinite.

If anyone would be interested in such features, please tell me so. It would take much more time, but could be doable in a phase 2 or 3 of the project.

I'll let you know when I start.

Kind regards,

Alexandre

[Arius Vistoon]

i'm interested. give us information about your progress.

personnaly, i know and use this for map zoom http://iipimage.sourceforge.net/. and i'm interested about your solution

[dinadan]

Arius,

Thanks for your interest. I created a Github public repository for this. You can follow its progress there.

https://github.com/adube/birthright-map

You can subscribe and click the "watch" button to follow every push new stuff. You'd receive an email.

Regards,

Alexandre

[dinadan]

Hi,

I think I forgot to log in before replying earlier

Anyway, here's the Github repository where I'll put my code : https://github.com/adube/birthright-map

[Arjan]

Hi,

I think I forgot to log in before replying earlier

Anyway, here's the Github repository where I'll put my code : https://github.com/adube/birthright-map
nah you didnt forget, it was put on moderated since you posted a link and didnt have enough posts yet ;)

[AndrewTall]

Which map are you going to use as the base?

The ones in the boxes are all differing scales and have inconsistent layering (i.e. only some of the provinces have the population/source added).

Kay did some maps a while back that were very nice, I'm not sure if they got properly put on the site though - I could email them if you want to see them.

[dinadan]

I used this one : http://community.wizards.com/bright/go/gallery/item/86320415?pref_tab=photos

[dinadan]

Kay did some maps a while back that were very nice, I'm not sure if they got properly put on the site though - I could email them if you want to see them.

Sure, I'd be interested : alexandre_dube-----@-----hotmail.com

Thanks,

Alexandre

[Sorontar]

I used this one : http://community.wizards.com/bright/go/gallery/item/86320415?pref_tab=photos

That map is a brilliantly merged version of all the maps that WotC released for all the regions etc. I forget which fan did it.

Sorontar

[dinadan]

I published what I currently have on a dev machine from my office.

http://gm.mapgears.com/birthright-map/

It doesn't contain the "travel tool" yet, but should give a generic idea of what the application may look like.

Regards,

Alexandre

[dinadan]

I added an example of georeferencing additional images using the same coordinates system as the continent map, which enables smaller maps to be added on top. I added a map of Roesone I roughly edited using Gimp.

See how it looks like : http://gm.mapgears.com/birthright-map/

Regards,

Alexandre

[dinadan]

Just to mention that I did reply this week-end, but again since my messages contained links they were put on moderated.

Regards,

Alexandre

[dinadan]

Hi,

Just to mention that there are still at least 3 posts I made 2 weeks ago that are still in moderator because they contain links to the interactive map prototype I made.

Could someone take care of this, please ?

Kind regards,

Alexandre

[Arius Vistoon]

Hi,

Just to mention that there are still at least 3 posts I made 2 weeks ago that are still in moderator because they contain links to the interactive map prototype I made.

Could someone take care of this, please ?

Kind regards,

Alexandre

i approve your posts, so normaly, they will appear now. But i think it's not a good idea to put your email like this (i change it)

[Vicente]

I have just tested the map with the Roesone layer, and very nice work, congratulations! :)

[Muaadeeb]

This looks really nice!

Could we possibly have two pages? One page with just he raw "cannon" map which would allow players and DM's to take screen shots and do personal mods...and a 2nd map which is the one with all of your high speed, low drag manipulations?

Looks very good thus far!

[dinadan]

Hi to all,

Thanks for your replies and feedbacks.

Muaadeeb, to answer your question, it would be hard to accomplish this with screen shots and raw images manipulation. On the other hand, there could be more doable but would require at the same time a big amount of work and time.

Here's the idea. Using QuantumGIS, we load the current geo-referenced image as a background image. Then, we manually digitalize each feature on the map using drawing tools. We draw polygons for provinces, forests, montains, etc, lines for roads, rivers, etc. and points for cities, ruins, towns, etc. Then, using a map rendering engine, such as MapServer, we can return those features as JSON and let them be drawn in the browser directly using SVG or VML. Then, these could be edited by users. This would require each user to have its own database setup with the default settings, then users could change the ownership of provinces, change their geometry, etc.

This would be a huge project with lots of support required, but possible.

I'll send more links to show examples of how this could work.

Regards,

Alexandre

[dinadan]

Here's an old prototype I made in 2009. Please, use Chrome as it doesn't work anymore with recent versions of Firefox browsers.

http://dev4.mapgears.com/bdga/bdgaWFS-T.html

Road features are returned by a server in XML, then drawn to the map in SVG. You can click on a road, which toggles points that can be dragged around to modify its geometry.

The application that would have Birthright data wouldn't require to be able to edit/add new geometries, just change minor things such as the owner of a province, but you get the idea of what could be possible to do.

Regards,

Alexandre

[dinadan]

Hi again (sorry for posting a lot)

In a few days, I'll try digitalizing the domain of Roesone, just to show you what could be possible to accomplish.

Regards,

Alexandre

[Dyark]

Hi to all,

Thanks for your replies and feedbacks.

Muaadeeb, to answer your question, it would be hard to accomplish this with screen shots and raw images manipulation. On the other hand, there could be more doable but would require at the same time a big amount of work and time.

Here's the idea. Using QuantumGIS, we load the current geo-referenced image as a background image. Then, we manually digitalize each feature on the map using drawing tools. We draw polygons for provinces, forests, montains, etc, lines for roads, rivers, etc. and points for cities, ruins, towns, etc. Then, using a map rendering engine, such as MapServer, we can return those features as JSON and let them be drawn in the browser directly using SVG or VML. Then, these could be edited by users. This would require each user to have its own database setup with the default settings, then users could change the ownership of provinces, change their geometry, etc.

This would be a huge project with lots of support required, but possible.

I'll send more links to show examples of how this could work.

Regards,

Alexandre

Hi Alexandre

Long time no log for me.

This is exactly what I was developing, i had to stop because of new job and new baby and university, but I will get back to it in about a month.

The main problem was correcting the database, i lost a lot of hours just to make sure that I would be able to handle many regent within the same ownership.

All the data I have is from the original books.

[Muaadeeb]

Alexandre,

You have some great ideas and you expanded my idea very nicely.

What I meant though -- would it be possible to keep the current map you have **cannon** so that players and GMs can take screen shots for personal use in their games... I like the zoom feature and the high quality resolution and I can see having that permanently available for the BR community will help the non-technical folks.

:-)

[dinadan]

Hi Alexandre

Long time no log for me.

This is exactly what I was developing, i had to stop because of new job and new baby and university, but I will get back to it in about a month.

The main problem was correcting the database, i lost a lot of hours just to make sure that I would be able to handle many regent within the same ownership.

All the data I have is from the original books.

Hi Dyark,

I would be really interested in seeing what you have accomplished. Would it be possible for you to share it ? How big is your project so far ? What kind of database did you use ?

Regards,

Alexandre

[dinadan]

Alexandre,

You have some great ideas and you expanded my idea very nicely.

What I meant though -- would it be possible to keep the current map you have **cannon** so that players and GMs can take screen shots for personal use in their games... I like the zoom feature and the high quality resolution and I can see having that permanently available for the BR community will help the non-technical folks.

:-)

Muaadeeb,

I think I should have mentioned this earlier, but I don't understand what "keeping the current map cannon" means :) I'm a French Canadian, sorry ^_^

Alexandre

[Dyark]

Hi Dyark,

I would be really interested in seeing what you have accomplished. Would it be possible for you to share it ? How big is your project so far ? What kind of database did you use ?

Regards,

Alexandre

my pleasure, the only thing i have is a stable one map with flash.
My longer version is full of bugs that i have to correct one by one and it is soooo long

PS : moi aussi je suis Canadien Français ;)

http://www.deismaar.com/cerilia_map2/Map.html

[dinadan]

my pleasure, the only thing i have is a stable one map with flash.
My longer version is full of bugs that i have to correct one by one and it is soooo long

PS : moi aussi je suis Canadien Français ;)

http://www.deismaar.com/cerilia_map2/Map.html

Whoa, that's a really impressive piece of work ! It's clear you had more than "just a map" in mind. It's an interactive encyclopaedia, which could even support CRUD transactions.

I'm not a big fan of Flash myself, but I must say this is really nice. I'd still be interested in seeing how you digitalize your data. Is it geo-referenced ? Could I convert this ? In brief, I'm interested in knowing more about the back-end libraries and technologies you used.

Cheers,

Alexandre

P.S. Salutations du Saguenay :) (translation: Hi from Saguenay, the region where I live)

[Dyark]

Whoa, that's a really impressive piece of work ! It's clear you had more than "just a map" in mind. It's an interactive encyclopaedia, which could even support CRUD transactions.

I'm not a big fan of Flash myself, but I must say this is really nice. I'd still be interested in seeing how you digitalize your data. Is it geo-referenced ? Could I convert this ? In brief, I'm interested in knowing more about the back-end libraries and technologies you used.

Cheers,

Alexandre

P.S. Salutations du Saguenay :) (translation: Hi from Saguenay, the region where I live)

Thanks for the compliment.

I had to stop to fix the database.
All the info is feeded from mySQL and PHP. I used flash because i know programming with action script 3.
I have to give myself time to learn java language so I can get out of flash.
The map is vectorial made with illustrator. All the provinces a mapped separately, i gave them 3 layer, top, border and filled. So when you change something it would show.
The other map I don't show because of the bugs, you have written decree and their impact, taxation, all you negotiations with other regent that you know of, army building, army training (my own rule, I added 5 level to each army for efficiency)

In a long run i wanted a web turn base game with chat for birthright.
a regent was able to build is owned road if needed, positions his castle, armies, move his spy etc...
I even tough about decreasing the size of the forest in you province when you increase the level of the province.

That's the big overview
.

[Magian]

If only I collected as much wealth per season that the Magian did, then I'd hire you all to work on these projects as your day job. Sigh.

[dinadan]

Thanks for the compliment.

I had to stop to fix the database.
All the info is feeded from mySQL and PHP. I used flash because i know programming with action script 3.
I have to give myself time to learn java language so I can get out of flash.
The map is vectorial made with illustrator. All the provinces a mapped separately, i gave them 3 layer, top, border and filled. So when you change something it would show.
The other map I don't show because of the bugs, you have written decree and their impact, taxation, all you negotiations with other regent that you know of, army building, army training (my own rule, I added 5 level to each army for efficiency)

In a long run i wanted a web turn base game with chat for birthright.
a regent was able to build is owned road if needed, positions his castle, armies, move his spy etc...
I even tough about decreasing the size of the forest in you province when you increase the level of the province.

That's the big overview
.

Dyark,

I'd like to try converting your Adobe Illustrator file to a shapefile (georeferenced file format) and also see if I could convert your database into PostgreSQL/PostGIS as well. Would you be willing to share them with me ?

Regards,

Alexandre

[Dyark]

If only I collected as much wealth per season that the Magian did, then I'd hire you all to work on these projects as your day job. Sigh.

I feel the love, thanks

[Dyark]

Dyark,

I'd like to try converting your Adobe Illustrator file to a shapefile (georeferenced file format) and also see if I could convert your database into PostgreSQL/PostGIS as well. Would you be willing to share them with me ?

Regards,

Alexandre

of course, but the database is not finished, it takes a zellion time to check it, everythime I look at it, i find something to correct.

I am converting all the regent to 3.5, but without the scion class.

if you are looking for holdings, i am almost finish, i'm at Rovninodensk and all the temple, law guild source are done exept for about 50 rulers, i can share it, but you will find mistakes.

For illustrator i will share it with you no prob. I am working today, but i will send you a link before tomorrow.

[Dyark]

I just added the file in the map category title Cerilia all province Illustrator.

Let me know if you have any questions

[dinadan]

I just added the file in the map category title Cerilia all province Illustrator.

Let me know if you have any questions

Got it. Thanks.

[Dyark]

Dyark,
if I could convert your database into PostgreSQL/PostGIS as well. Would you be willing to share them with me ?

Regards,

Alexandre

Do you know any software that can convert that easily ?

[dinadan]

Do you know any software that can convert that easily ?

No. My quick search over the internet proposed some ugly ways to do it. If I successfully accomplish anything regarding this, I'll let you know.

Alexandre