A question of game mechanics.

[Deathknyte]

The rules for creating a holding state that you need one gold bar and some luck to create a level zero holding.

Please consider the following scenario. Hapless PC A decides to create a guild holding and become a Guild Master in province B. Province B has one open slot that PC A can expand into. PC A spends a gold bar and manages to create guild holding C a level (0) holding in province B.

The rules for ruling up a holding state that the cost is regency points equal to the target level of a holding and one gold bar per holding ruled.

How is PC A to rule a level (0) holding to level (1) when PC A does not receive regency from guild holding C due to it being level (0)?

Any thoughts?

[Calsius]

There have been 2 ways I've dealt with this as a DM. The first was to offer small amounts of regency as rewards for domain level adventures, ie role playing a rule action. The second way was to allow a PC to sacrifice part of their bloodline for regency. I think I may even have seen numbers such as 1 bloodline strength grants 10 regency for Bloodlines above 20, 5 for those above 10 and 1 for those below 10.

[Muaadeeb]

The original 2nd rule states on page. 59.

"Ruling a holding or province from a level 0 to level 1 costs 1 GB; no RP's must be spent."

[DanMcSorley]

>
> The rules for ruling up a holding state that the cost is regency points
> equal to the target level of a holding and one gold bar per holding ruled.
>
> How is PC A to rule a level (0) holding to level (1) when PC A does not
> receive regency from guild holding C due to it being level (0)?
>

Two house rules, either of which enable this:

1 - reverse bloodline growth; normally a character can spend RPs to
increase their bloodline. Allow a PC to decrease their bloodline to gain RPs

2 - instead of requiring RPs to rule a holding, just have a higher target
number for the check, and allow RPs to be spent to decrease the target
number. Mechanically equivalent if you have RPs, but handles the
exceptional case that you described above.

#2 is from the 3e rules which float around here, and it`s one of the best
rule improvements from the original rules.

--
Daniel McSorley

[Deathknyte]

The original 2nd rule states on page. 59.

"Ruling a holding or province from a level 0 to level 1 costs 1 GB; no RP's must be spent."

Must have missed that part. Thanks. It's been bugging me lately.
Heh, I just looked at page 59. It's under the paragraph describing ruling a province up. No wonder I missed it.

[Deathknyte]

Thanks for the house rule answers.

I don't do anything past 2nd edition though so I have no idea how they changed it for 3rd and 4th and what-have-you.

[Muaadeeb]

Glad I could help.

[AndrewTall]

There are several 3E conversions. As BR.net was an official site at the time it had to do a conversion to the current edition, which led to the BRCS (and sadly much bitterness). The BRCS can be found on the wiki or in the BRCS forum (the third sticky thread has the latest versions of the chapters).

Dang, I'd have sworn that burning bloodline was official! Other solutions:

1. Adventure reward, in King of the Giant Downs one adventure reward was a book that provided RP's and RP are an obvious adventure reward - particularly amongst the Vos where influence and personal heroism are inextricably linked.

2. Gift / sponsorship from another regent. Gloves of Regency (?) allowed a regent to provide RP to a looey, a regent could also pay the RP on behalf of the would-be regent.

3. Gift of the holding. The would-be regent could be invested directly with a L1 or better holding - this could be due to marriage, inheritance, reward for service, extorted, etc.

4. Great Captain event. Normally seen as a way of cutting down would-be sun-kings there is no reason why the same rules can't be applied to a PC would-be regent who would then receive holdings in exchange for being the "man of the people" - albeit at a heavy cost.

In practice I'd expect it to be very rare for someone to raise themselves from non-regent to regent without help. It is possible as noted above, and in non-game mechanics inevitable as a 'just below the radar' holding grew to be 'L0' and so on, but competition is tough, and once at holding level people are abruptly "on the radar" of many people - even at L0 holding.

[Muaadeeb]

Very true...but some people would be wondering "who" just built that level zero holding. In the BR PBEM world you can just look at the holdings page and "see" -- "Oh, it is Bob the commoner..."

But if we add more realisms into the game - they probably would want to be cautious. For example, I imagine anyone wanting a stake in Endier would spend several espionage-styled actions to hide their foot prints as much as possible...

It is possible for a no-body to get a foothold - but in most scenarios the current power structure will dismantle them.

[Deathknyte]

Very true...but some people would be wondering "who" just built that level zero holding. In the BR PBEM world you can just look at the holdings page and "see" -- "Oh, it is Bob the commoner..."

But if we add more realisms into the game - they probably would want to be cautious. For example, I imagine anyone wanting a stake in Endier would spend several espionage-styled actions to hide their foot prints as much as possible...

It is possible for a no-body to get a foothold - but in most scenarios the current power structure will dismantle them.

I would say that the current power structure has a vested interest in preventing new regents from springing up. A finite pie can only be divided so many times before its not worth the bother.

Not to mention all an opposing regent needs is one level (0) holding to contest your holding and a friendly priest to pull an investiture to take the holding you had over.

Which brings up another question, if you do contest a holding, and then invest it, does the holding remain contested or does it drop? I suspect it would drop because you could always stop contesting it once you own it, but what about holdovers who remain loyal to the former controller? I am sure they would try to keep things in an uproar in hopes that the former controller regains the holding.

[Muaadeeb]

I would assume "relenting" would be a free action and the holding would no longer be contested.

According to the rule contest action on page 52 of the 2nd edition Contest Action - the cost is 1 RP only. There is no listing of additional RP/GB modifiers.

Based on this I would say that the previous level 0 holding supporters would lose heart. Some would drift away and some would stay - and new people would join the 0 level holding who politically support the contesting regent. That is my view point anyway.

[Muaadeeb]

Something else to keep in mind.

I powerful adventurer with lots of gold can always hire mercenaries to help defend their zero level "empire".

Mercenaries can be hired in any province (2nd Ed.). The zero level holding regent may suddenly become a "great captain" event.

[AndrewTall]

Another point to consider is that someone gaining a L0 holdings is unlikely to be a nobody from nowhere - these are the people who are so influential and powerful that they actually register on the power-lists and are likely in the "top 500" people in a nation - and certainly in the top 50 in any realm. They are likely to be far weaker than a "proper" regent, but attacking them will inevitably have consequences.

In a large domain it is also likely that the vassals (small "v") and so on within the domain will naturally become sufficiently famous, influential and wealthy that they become such petty regents in their own right - any regent who routinely stomps on L0 holdings is likely to be attacking their own best, most loyal, most effective people.

Many L0 holdings will also be set up by the existing regents and be vassals of those regents, if a regent marries a daughter to another noble then the regent would be expected to give a dowry and a minor title (i.e. a L0) holding would be a routine gift - any adventurer doing great deeds could also expect to be granted a L0 holding (at least) to tie them to the province/realm - these are not likely to be outsiders to the realm, but an integral part of it so attacking the L0 holders is similar to attacking the regents with actual power in social and economic terms.

L0 holdings can, of course, be used to attack other holdings, but that's a very mechanical way to look at them. From a story / realist perspective L0 holdings should be commonplace and seen as assets not liabilities - these people are the natural supporters of the existing regime not threats to it.

[Deathknyte]

Frankly, anyone with a level zero holding has to be somebody with either influence or riches. Simply put, where did the original gold bar (two THOUSAND gold pieces) come from? I would hazard that only people who come from rich families or who have really good ruler friends would be able to amass that kind of wealth normally. Adventurous types of course would get theirs by taking other peoples stuff.

If a ruler squashes every level zero holding, he will make enemies out of the guy who actually held the holding as well as whoever backed him originally. It would really suck for say, the Baron of Diemed to squish a holding held by Baronet so-and-so who happens to be the much beloved distant cousin of the Prince of Avanil.

Personally, I consider level zero holdings to either be a foothold in the county, or a means of keeping tabs on what is going on there.

A level zero law holding could be a campsite for a few scouts who keep the holder informed of what is happening there. A level zero temple holding, a very minor shrine, still has a priest or lay person in attendance who can keep their eyes open for news. A guild holding could be just a single storefront, not much threat to a full-on guild holding, but enough for a "shop keeper" to hear all the latest rumors. I guess a magic holding would be a very minor wellspring of magic that makes it simple to get an overall picture of a province, but not enough to actually spy on anyone in detail.