Dealing with the taint of Azrai

[Danip]

Hi all,
A character in my weekly BR game set in Brechtur recently had his bloodline derivation changed to Azrai by killing a nasty Orog cleric. The character is LG and destined to be the King of a liberated Zweilunds, so this is very much bad news. We've poured thru the canon material, the BRCS, and forums, but we are still looking for inspiration about what to do with this new bad blood. Any and all ideas/comments welcome.

Simply keeping the new derivation, and hoping that a fall to evil never happens, doesnt seem to be a good option. Are there tons of scions in Cerelia that gain the blood of Azrai and lead happy, Good lives? Should our character's view this change as a serious and bad thing? From a poetic justice and storytelling point of view, placing a scion of Azrai at the helm of your new LG nation seems to be begging for trouble. Either the new King or someone in his line seems destined to fall hard eventually.

The other obvious thing to do, bloodtheft lots of people with non-Azrai blood and hope for a derivation change doesnt look very LG and is also out.

So we are looking for new and creative ways to play around this development. Some of the idea's we've come up with are,

Suicide.
Character walks a goodly distance away and offs himself. Blood of Azrai pours out harmlessly, then our high level party cleric raises dead the next day. Loss of level and loss of all blood (and thus kingship/destiny) results, but has the benifit of being a quick fix.
We've havent used resurrection in our campaign up to this point, so we might not allow this just to keep that rare/impossible.

Bloodline Investiture
A careful reading of the BRCS reveals that if you transfer your bloodline to someone stronger than you that person has no chance having their bloodline derivation changed. Basically the character would 'donate' his bloodline to the Count of Danigau (Bld 50+) and continue as a commoner.
This of course brings on the question, why dont more scions do this? Several Awnies are good people who dont want to be corrupted (Siren, Manticore, Harpy, ...). Are they just selfishly holding onto their bloodline? A simple realm spell any temple knows, and bingo! no more good people turning bad against their will.

Bloodline Destruction
Similar to above. Higher level and perhaps rarer realm spell, but still provides a ready solution inside the rules.

Some random quest...
Not loosing the bloodline, but rather having it purified and returned to the derivation of Masela it used to be would be nice. We play an adventure-level game, so something involving getting attacked by monsters would be a nice solution. A good version of the Magian's Bloodline Corruption spell known by a far off wizard maybe... Finding a powerful Erghsegh... becoming a paladin and questing for divine salvation... Any deas?

Generally, how should a LG scion familiar with the lore of blood and Awnshegh view this development? Is this a 'hmmm, thats interesting' moment, or a 'burn myself at the stake moment'?

[Osprey]

Interesting situation...I had a PC with a similar problem IMC -not for himself, but rather for his best friend and primary lieutenant (and court bard).

Now, granted, the bard was true Neutral, not LG, so not quite the moral dilemma within himself. But those who know fear the corruption may one day overtake him.

I play Azrai bloodlines to be corrupting - tending to encourage evil tendencies/desires through storytelling and roleplaying. I don't think it takes turning into an awnsegh for a scion of Azrai to bend towards the dark side.

I wouldn't introduce bloodline-purifying elements, unless it's a "one time only" sort of thing. Otherwise, you'd have to explain why more tainted scions haven't found ways to rid themselves of Azrai's derivation.

Normally, the only way to rid onessself of a derivation is to go bloodtheft someone else and hope their derivation overrides your own. Of course, this can be a path to evil and corruption unto itself, which is one of the beautiful traps of Azrai's taint. :D Love that double entendre.

Osprey

[Sorontar]

Excuse me for not being completely up on the rules, new or old, but can you do Investiture to surrender your bloodline to someone who has a greater bloodline, hope that "cleans" the blood, and then get invested by that person. Ideally, the other person has to be someone who is willing to make you their successor as you now would have their bloodline.

I am just wondering how the taint of Azrai goes for clerics. Would a cleric/druid of Eric, Avani or Haelyn be able to keep on casting spells with an Azrai bloodline? What about other specific abilities like shape transformation, protection from certain spells, etc.?

Sorontar

[geeman]

At 07:24 AM 10/13/2005 +0200, Sorontar wrote:

>Excuse me for not being completely up on the rules, new or old, but can
>you do Investiture to surrender your bloodline to someone who has a
>greater bloodline, hope that "cleans" the blood, and then get invested by
>that person. Ideally, the other person has to be someone who is willing to
>make you their successor as you now would have their bloodline.
>
>I am just wondering how the taint of Azrai goes for clerics. Would a
>cleric/druid of Eric, Avani or Haelyn be able to keep on casting spells
>with an Azrai bloodline? What about other specific abilities like shape
>transformation, protection from certain spells, etc.?

Just to clarify a couple of points here (since you mentioned not being up
on the old or new rules.)

The original rules set had no provision for changing one`s bloodline away
from that of Azrai other than, I suppose, death and resurrection (which
simply removed bloodline entirely.) Those with Azrai`s bloodline to begin
with, or whose bloodline was transformed by an act of bloodtheft (there
were a few other means) were permanently transformed. In the BRCS update
there are rules for all bloodline derivations being switched around through
an act of bloodtheft. This is important because it can radically change
the dynamic of your campaign. If you go with the update then it could turn
the player`s goal into one of trying to change his bloodline back (or, at
least, away from Azrai`s) while if you go with the original version he`ll
have to dedicate some sort of effort to avoiding the curse of Azrai.

All that said, either way he should still be able to serve as a priest of
Eric, Avani or Haelyn or most any other god as a scion of Azrai. His
bloodline will make it difficult in that it should urge him towards an
alignment that is (eventually) incompatible with those faiths. Bloodline
derivation does not necessarily determine a character`s character
classes. It should be considered an influence and may lead to a
transformation that would be very much at odds with some other faith, but
even in the case of scions of other (non-Azrai) derivations it is possible
to take on characteristics as an ershegh that would be very different from
that of a particular faith. Azrai`s derivation is inherintly more
corrupting than any of the others, but where that derivation stands out as
an extreme it is possible for the others to do the same thing.

Gary

[Danip]

I play Azrai bloodlines to be corrupting - tending to encourage evil tendencies/desires through storytelling and roleplaying. I don't think it takes turning into an awnsegh for a scion of Azrai to bend towards the dark side.
I agree. Even without physical changes, I think that Azrai's blood should slowly nudge alignment towards evil and perhaps even chaos. However, exploring that decent into evil wont really work for this party. We play a friendly adventure-level game, and the obvious path to evil involves getting rid of the other players in 'accidents', for various geopolitical and humane reasons I wont get into. Retiring the PC to NPC-dom would be obligatory for that path.



I wouldn't introduce bloodline-purifying elements, unless it's a "one time only" sort of thing. Otherwise, you'd have to explain why more tainted scions haven't found ways to rid themselves of Azrai's derivation.
Agreed. Unless it is new or nigh impossible, why arnt there tons doing it? But what sort of thing would make a good 'one time only'?



I am just wondering how the taint of Azrai goes for clerics. Would a cleric/druid of Eric, Avani or Haelyn be able to keep on casting spells with an Azrai bloodline? What about other specific abilities like shape transformation, protection from certain spells, etc.?
The thing I would note, is that unlike vanilla D&D, clerics dont have to match the alignment of their deity in the slightest in BR, IIRC. This is so there is more political intrigue among the churches. So even if your heart turns evil Haelyn and Cuiracean will still give you spells. Blatant violations of a god's code may get you tossed, but working within it should be possible for a good long time.

[Lee]

In a message dated 10/12/05 10:28:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET writes:

<< Danip wrote:
Hi all,
A character in my weekly BR game set in Brechtur recently had his bloodline
derivation changed to Azrai by killing a nasty Orog cleric. The character is
LG and destined to be the King of a liberated Zweilunds, so this is very much
bad news. ...
... Either the new King or someone in his line seems destined to fall hard
eventually. >>

Sounds like the stuff bard`s tales are composed of, the hero with a
tragic flaw.

<< Some of the ideas we`ve come up with are, Suicide. <snip> We`ve havent
used resurrection in our campaign up to this point, so we might not allow this
just to keep that rare/impossible. >>

Bad idea. IF the gods are in general opposed to Resurrection, why would
they allow it in case of suicide? "You wanted to throw away your only life,
and now you want it back?"

<< Bloodline Investiture ... & Bloodline Destruction >>

Not bad, but then the PC king-to-be is out of a throne. The family would
be SO disappointed.

<< Some random quest
Not loosing the bloodline, but rather having it purified and returned to the
derivation of Masela it used to be would be nice. We play an adventure-level
game, so something involving getting attacked by monsters would be a nice
solution. A good version of the Magian`s Bloodline Corruption spell known by a
far off wizard maybe... Finding a powerful Erghsegh... becoming a paladin and
questing for divine salvation... Any deas? >>

I wouldn`t say a random quest, but one directed by an LG god, Nesirie if
you want a Masela BL returned. Since she is focussed on death and the passage
beyond, perhaps a big undead threat needs to be squashed. If the undead in
question were one that is intelligent and magical, and could play on the PC`s
Azrai taint by tempting them into evil acts, so much the better. If the PC can
act paladin-like and overcome the desires of his own blood, that could prove
worthy enough to warrant a deific intervention.

<< Generally, how should a LG scion familiar with the lore of blood and
Awnshegh view this development? Is this a `hmmm, thats interesting` moment, or a
`burn myself at the stake moment`? >>

"Uh oh, I need to be **really** careful now." I`d be making contact with
a temple, and getting myself a confessor/spiritual adviser.

Lee.

[geeman]

At 11:40 AM 10/13/2005 +0200, Danip wrote:

>I agree. Even without physical changes, I think that Azrai`s blood should
>slowly nudge alignment towards evil and perhaps even chaos. However,
>exploring that decent into evil wont really work for this party. We play
>a friendly adventure-level game, and the obvious path to evil involves
>getting rid of the other players in `accidents`, for various geopolitical
>and humane reasons I wont get into. Retiring the PC to NPC-dom would be
>obligatory for that path.

Here`s the system that I use. One or two of the items described (such as
"BP" and the "Major Transformation" feat) have to do with the system of
bloodline and awnshegh/ershegh transformation that I use, but for the most
part it should be useable for anybody`s homebrew:

....Scions of Azrai can fight to avoid becoming corrupted by the power of
their bloodline. When Azrai`s scions earn a character level they must make
a Will save to avoid giving in to the corruption of their blood. The base
DC of this save is the target character level of the scion. Bonuses from
magic items do not apply to this saving throw. Only the character`s wisdom
modifier, Will save modifier and any bonuses to will saves gained from
feats can be used to make this check. In addition to character level,
apply the following modifiers get the DC of the check:

TABLE 5: CORRUPTION CHECK MODIFIERS
Mod Condition
+1 For two levels taken (voluntarily or involuntarily) in the awnshegh
character class.
+1 Each BP spent on the Bloodform blood ability.
+1 If you have any of the following "signature" blood abilities of Azrai:
death touch, fear, regeneration, touch of decay, wither touch. This
modifier is cumulative for each of those blood abilities you have.
+2 If you became an awnshegh as the result of bloodtheft (ie. have the
awnshegh template.)
+2 If you have taken the Major Transformation feat.

A scion of Azrai who has earned enough XP to take a 7th level, for
instance, must make a DC 7 Will save to avoid taking that level as an
awnshegh. If that same character already has two levels as an awnshegh,
and the Fear blood ability then he must make a DC 10 check.

Failing this check means you must take a level in the awnshegh character
class rather than in a character class of your choice, or your alignment
changes one step towards chaotic evil. That is, a lawful good character
becomes either lawful neutral or neutral good. Whether to take an awnshegh
level, change alignment and which what the alignment change will be is the
player`s choice as long as such an alignment change is possible. That is,
a scion of Azrai who is already chaotic evil must take an awnshegh level if
he fails this check upon leveling up. In some cases (and with the DM`s
approval) your alignment may change to one that is based on the theme of
your transformation. An alignment change based upon an awnsheghlien theme
can never be one of the good alignments. If you fail this check by 5 or
more you must both take a level in the awnshegh character class and your
alignment changes one step towards chaotic evil.

Gary

[soudhadies]

I think that the way the situation is handled has to depend on what you know about the player and the group. If you think he has the ability to handle the inner turmoil of the character in a mature fashion, then you should play through it as it can make for excellent story telling. If, on the otherhand, this sort of theme would not be handled well, or would not serve the purposes of the campaign then you should find the most convenient and logical fix for it.

If you choose the more difficult task then the matter that you should probably play up is player chararacter choice. Present the character with situations in which he must make a clear choice between taking the path of good, or the path of evil, and have these choices grow in impact as things progress in the campaign.

In the Forgotten Realms/Maztica Campaign that I just finished running for the past year and a half, one of the characters was a tiefling. I played up the themes of choice and dark blood using racial levels and as she slipped closer to evil despite how hard she resisted it she progressed further along the half-fiend template. The character ended up being played with a distinct resistace to this slippery slope. Each choice built upon all the others that had come before it.

In the final adventure she was presented with one final choice: she could choose a place at the side of the enemy, and help remake the world as a goddess, or she could stand with her friends and probably die to protect the innocent (This is a vast oversimplification of the situation, but it is valid for the purposes of this example).

In the end, there are many ways for a LG character to be held up as being LG. You can do it by contrasting them to villains who are clearly not LG, but you can also do it by showing the sacrifices that they make for their values.

Both are equally valid, but there is little as satisfying as giving a character the chance to have ultimate power and watching that character throw it away for all the right reasons.

[Danip]

I think that the way the situation is handled has to depend on what you know about the player and the group. If you think he has the ability to handle the inner turmoil of the character in a mature fashion, then you should play through it as it can make for excellent story telling. If, on the otherhand, this sort of theme would not be handled well, or would not serve the purposes of the campaign then you should find the most convenient and logical fix for it.

Both are equally valid, but there is little as satisfying as giving a character the chance to have ultimate power and watching that character throw it away for all the right reasons.
A long decent into evil might be interesting to play, but unfortunately would rather ruin the dynamic of the group. Having the party rogue (oh I didnt mention it was the party's craft, manipulative, intellegent rogue did I?) turn evil would have too many party member's 'dying in their sleep.' So a quick fix is preferable.

But I agree that LG isnt just about picking up a sword and fighting BBEG's when its profitable. It is also about sacrifice, order, selflessness. That is why at the moment I am leaning towards bloodline invesititure to voulntarily give up the blood and crown. The 'man who could have been King' gives up the crown to another worthy scion, and lives out his life as a tragic hero paladin.

Gary,
Good system. At first glance, the DC looks low, but as you only need to fail a few times for major repercussions I guess it works out. How many levels do you typically put into an awnshegh progression? Or is it more of an open-ended path?



I wouldn`t say a random quest, but one directed by an LG god, Nesirie if
you want a Masela BL returned. Since she is focussed on death and the passage beyond, perhaps a big undead threat needs to be squashed. If the undead in
question were one that is intelligent and magical, and could play on the PC`s
Azrai taint by tempting them into evil acts, so much the better. If the PC can
act paladin-like and overcome the desires of his own blood, that could prove
worthy enough to warrant a deific intervention.
Not bad. The party is 9th level by the way (and has a cleric of Nesirie). Two obvious Nesirie related quests would involve the Shadow world or the Magian. The lich Magian created the bloodline corruption spell, maybe he also made the reverse. I dont know off the top of my head, but how challening are the monsters of the shadow world? Id always gotten the impression that the shadow world was a pretty tough place.

[Osprey]

Not bad. The party is 9th level by the way (and has a cleric of Nesirie). Two obvious Nesirie related quests would involve the Shadow world or the Magian. The lich Magian created the bloodline corruption spell, maybe he also made the reverse. I dont know off the top of my head, but how challening are the monsters of the shadow world? Id always gotten the impression that the shadow world was a pretty tough place.

Ooohhh...the Magian. Given the fact that the Magian would likely blast their collective butts into oblivion in a straight fight (not to mention what his nasty minions could do), they might be forced to instead go to the Magian and bargain (beg?) for him to cast such a spell on the PC.

I could imagine the Magian making them believe he had such power, commit them to performing multiple questionable services for him, maybe even corrupting one or more PCs along the way...all an elaborate set of betrayals meant to twist their original desire toward dark ends. Use them, bend them, break them...

But then again, it sounds like you really want a heroic good guy campaign, and having a character turn slowly evil would ruin it. Pity.

I'd say no to the Neserie quest idea...I don't think even the Cerilian deities should have the power to change bloodline derivations. It's too close to their own divine beings...that's my opinion anyways.

But then again, I'm not really a fan of any quick fixes...seems to me most any possibility for ridding oneself of Azrai's taint should carry grave risk of falling instead into deeper corruption (like dueling/bloodthefting other scions). Make it the terrible burden it was meant to be. The taint of Azrai's blood is perhaps one of the greatest tragedies and sources of persistent evil inCerilia. Treat it as such.

Osprey

[geeman]

At 01:11 AM 10/14/2005 +0200, Danip wrote:

>Good system. At first glance, the DC looks low, but as you only need to
>fail a few times for major repercussions I guess it works out.

That was the idea. Once one begins down that path it should be possible,
but much more difficult, to turn away from it.

>How many levels do you typically put into an awnshegh progression? Or is
>it more of an open-ended path?

I`ve written up characters with as many as 17 levels in the
awnshegh/ershegh class without any particular difficulty (any more than
writing up any other character of that level, that is.)

The class itself is close to the most open-ended thing I could
imagine.... :) It`s not a prestige class so characters with the right
prereqs can take it at any level, there`s no max level, and the special
abilities of the class take up several pages to describe. Awnsheghlien and
ersheghlien are really a sort of omni-characters who can have just about
any theme, so a system of portraying them becomes a general "mystical
monster class" by default. The class itself also accompanies a much more
versatile system of portraying blood abilities--if I can say so without
sounding _too_ immodest--which is not level based like the one in the BRCS
update. In order to make up characters with such potential diversity a
system either has to be very long or very vague, and BR has had IMO plenty
of vague, so I went with long. That said, I made a serious effort to
balance the abilities of the class with those of existing character
classes, feats, etc. (to such an extent that such a thing is possible)
despite the length of the write up, and it`s been tested pretty well, so it
seems to work.

A version was posted a while back when there was a poll about how
awnshegh/ershegh transformation should be handled, so it should be in the
archives someplace. I`m planning on putting the latest (even longer)
version in my perennial project "Legendary Beings and Mythic Monsters"
which is a compilation of all the awnsheghlien and ersheghlien characters
I`ve written up in the past (along with a few new ones) as well as various
"sundries" like its own bloodline system....

Gary

[Lee]

Wow, it`s hard to top this. Sticking closer to the Brecht area, if you
so desired, the Hag might be almost as suitable for this plot.
Going to the SW seems more vague. The monsters there can be as dangerous
as you like, really.

Lee.

In a message dated 10/14/05 1:11:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET writes:

<< Ooohhh...the Magian. Given the fact that the Magian would likely blast
their collective butts into oblivion in a straight fight (not to mention what his
nasty minions could do), they might be forced to instead go to the Magian and
bargain (beg?) for him to cast such a spell on the PC.

I could imagine the Magian making them believe he had such power, commit
them to performing multiple questionable services for him, maybe even corrupting
one or more PCs along the way...all an elaborate set of betrayals meant to
twist their original desire toward dark ends. Use them, bend them, break them...

But then again, it sounds like you really want a heroic good guy campaign,
and having a character turn slowly evil would ruin it. Pity. >>

[Magnus Argent]

Is the main concern about the character becoming evil or one of his descendants falling pray to the taint in the bloodline?

There are many examples of blooded characters and even some awnsheghlien with Azrai bloodlines who have not fallen prey to the dark temptations of the blood. The LG Paladin of Haelyn, Teodor Profiev, who has a major Azrai bloodline comes to mind. And the Siren, The Harpy, The Chimaera, The Seadrake are all neutral I believe.

It seems to me that a character who becomes afflicted with a bloodline would have a better chance resisting the urges that accompany it because they know what life was like without it. Odd thoughts urging them to do things that they would never normally think of doing would be a fairly obvious indicator. Especially if that person is in the presense of his friends and companions, I would think he should be able to keep himself together.

If you are looking to guard against his descendents falling prey to the temptations of the dark bloodline, perhaps the goal shouldn't be to change the PC's bloodline but to try to secure a suitable wife for him to marry. She would need to be a scion descended from a more powerful bloodline of a different derivation, so this should not be an easy accomplishment but it could be the new ruler's first taste of diplomacy if you want. Maybe he would need to prove himself worthy of her through acts of valor and grand quests.

And if he does manage to secure such a marriage, if she ends up being a capable co-ruler, it would mean that the character would be free to aventure from time to time with his adventure buddies and not worry about his domain falling apart while he's gone.

[geeman]

At 04:17 AM 10/18/2005 +0200, Magnus Argent wrote:

>There are many examples of blooded characters and even some awnsheghlien
>with Azrai bloodlines who have not fallen prey to the dark temptations of
>the blood. The LG Paladin of Haelyn, Teodor Profiev, who has a major Azrai
>bloodline comes to mind. And the Siren, The Harpy, The Chimaera, The
>Seadrake are all neutral I believe.

Right. A character shouldn`t _automatically_ become evil if s/he has
Azrai`s bloodline derivation, and not every scion of Azrai is going to
become an awnshegh either. They really are two different aspects of his
bloodline`s effects... albeit different aspects that stem from the same
basic theme of Azrai--his corruptive influence on mortals.

>It seems to me that a character who becomes afflicted with a bloodline
>would have a better chance resisting the urges that accompany it because
>they know what life was like without it. Odd thoughts urging them to do
>things that they would never normally think of doing would be a fairly
>obvious indicator. Especially if that person is in the presense of his
>friends and companions, I would think he should be able to keep himself
>together.

Well... this is a divine thing and inherently difficult to quantify. It`s
not like one of the senses or doing without shoes. A character with
Azrai`s bloodline just has this nagging compulsion that s/he must resist,
and it is probably reasonable to assume that part of the process itself is
the rationalization of those urges. After all, Charm Person is a 1st level
spell and its effects can be pretty dramatic. Imagine a divine power doing
something similar, but in a more subdued and pervasive way.

Gary

[Magnus Argent]

<<Well... this is a divine thing and inherently difficult to quantify. It`s
not like one of the senses or doing without shoes. A character with
Azrai`s bloodline just has this nagging compulsion that s/he must resist,
and it is probably reasonable to assume that part of the process itself is
the rationalization of those urges. After all, Charm Person is a 1st level
spell and its effects can be pretty dramatic. Imagine a divine power doing
something similar, but in a more subdued and pervasive way.>>

Actually, Charm Person (and Charm Monster, too, for that matter) doesn't make you do anything you wouldn't normally do. It just makes you view someone as though they were a good and trusted friend. Dominate spells can force you to take actions you wouldn't normally take but in that instance, you would definitely know that someone else is making you do these thing.

But your point is well-taken. How does one quantify the power of the divinity in one's blood? Well, other than a bloodline score, of course.

Hey, maybe that would be a good indicator as to how much of an influence Azrai's taint would be? Surely a scion with an enormous bloodline ability score would feel more of Azrai's dark influence than one who was barely tainted, no?

One last suggestion: Oriental Adventures happens to embrace the concept of "taint". In that campaign setting, the taint is acquired through contact with the Shadowlands or someone/thing that came from there. In Birthright, one acquires the taint (of Azrai) differently but just because the two are presented differently doesn't mean that the game mechanics might not work equally well for your campaign.

I'm a big fan of not trying to re-invent the wheel. There are many good variant rules out there from numerous sources and many can fit quite nicely into a Birthright campaign.

Wasn't there a discussion on the birthright.net about Oriental Adventures and Birthright? It probably talked about the very rules I'm thinking of.. ?

[ausrick]

Magnus Argent brings up an interesting point,

If you want to look to other campaign settings for a possible answer, Ravenloft has one that comes to mind. In the domain of Mordent (and actually part of the reason that domain got wrenched into the realm of dread in the first place) was a man known as "The Alchemist" who was disturbed by his dark and sinister desires, so he labored and made a device that would alchemically allow him to shed his darker side. I believe the dark moral of the story however, was that though this device purified him, his discarded humanity was given life as well, and so he had basically a purely evil clone without any tempering force of conscience or good-will. I believe this device is an artifact and appears in the Ravenloft Dungeon Master's Guide that Sword & Sorcery did for d20 v3.5.

This path does have some implications that depending on your gaming style might not be your cup of tea. Depending on how you approach it, the evil clone thing can be given a unique and profound twist, or can be cliche and overdone. (first of all, who says distilling the evil out of someone, that that evil has to be an exact replica, It could be an amorphous psionic black blob for all we know, and maybe the danger of possibilities and not really knowing if this would work would be part of the risk, but I digress.) And the real moral dilema is that once you've purged yourself of this evil, what do you then do with that evil. And some would argue that its a far more insidious act to free that evil from the shackles of the good character and give it life on its own than it would be to shoulder the burden for eternity. Either way, if you would do this, such a device would be nigh impossible to make or find, and be one of a kind. And even more importantly, it would deal with forces that are beyond mortal ken. Things could go horribly wrong. On the upside, it would give the DM a nasty villian. Also mechanically with the bloodline issue, If you somehow shed the taint would it be half the bloodline score? The bloodline score duplicates, The evil essence carries roughly the same score that the original blooded azrai scion had before the good PC bloodthefted him? These would all be mechanics you would have to decide.

And most importantly, this is just an idea, you don't have to take stuff from Ravenloft and put it into your campaign if your campaign doesn't carry that kind of feel. (Except on the Winter Solstice of course, have a grand conjunction. :P )

[geeman]

At 03:57 PM 10/27/2005 +0200, ausrick wrote:

>If you want to look to other campaign settings for a possible answer,
>Ravenloft has one that comes to mind.

There are, of course, some significant differences between the various
concepts in other campaign settings and similar literary examples, but in
addition to Ravenloft`s dynamics it might make sense to look at a few
others for ideas as to how the issue of fighting off Azrai`s taint might
work. Such as:

1. The temptation of falling to the Dark Side in the Star Wars setting
(movies and literature.)

2. The corrupting effects and progressive nature of insanity in Call of
Cthulhu. In fact, any number of progressive degenerations portrayed in
that series might be apt.

3. The effects of sangreal on male magic users in the Wheel of Time setting.

4. The mind altering, existential effects of spice in Dune. One might also
consider the theological implications that seemed to accompany that
material. Spice allows for another "plane of reality" to be revealed, and
those who embrace their awnsheghlien nature go through a process that could
be described as essentially existential and based on theology.... Plus,
there`s a political level of play in Dune that shouldn`t be ignored (not
that it has much to do with the taint of Azrai, per se....)

5. The loss of humanity as portrayed in several sci-fi shows. I`m thinking
of some of the goofier Star Trek episodes here. Those transformations are
almost invariably faster than should be the taint of Azrai (the shows are,
after all, episodic) but the comparison between the god-like powers gained
by some mortals is still apt.

6. Just about any of the degenerate prestige classes that transform the
physicality of the character.

G

[Question]

2 simple solutions.

1.Pull a deus ex machina.Have a god(preferably the successor of Masela,im not too suer what it is) change the bloodline derivation back to Masela.Make up some "Destined to rule the domain" thing.Maybe throw in a prophecy or subtle clues about a futrue quest you want to run that will require your PC to be Masela.

2.Same as above except the god gives him a quest of some sort.Upon succesful completeion change him back to the original derivation.

[irdeggman]

The “latest” version of the BRCS, not the playtest version contains a variant on this issue. It can be found at the sticky labeled “Latest Version of the BRCS by Chapter”on top of this forum.



Here is the link:

http://www.birthright.net/showthread.php?t=2628 (http://www.birthright.net/showthread.php?t=2628)





It contains the “sanctioned” versions of Chap 1 and 2, which are what you will need.






Variant: Taint of Azrai

As a variant, the temptation and draw of Azrai towards evil can manifest itself in the following ways.



Scions with the Azrai bloodline and a blood score of 20 or more must make a Wil save against a DC of 10 + 1 for every number above 20 in order to avoid progressing towards the path of Azrai. This save must be made every time the scion’s bloodline score increases. A failed save results in the scion’s alignment progressing one step towards evil, i.e., a good aligned character becomes a neutrally aligned one and a neutrally aligned one becomes an evilly aligned one.



Scions with a major Azrai bloodline gain the bloodform blood ability at the major level once their bloodline score reaches 50. Scions with a great Azrai bloodline gain the bloodform ability at major level once their bloodline score reaches 40 and the bloodform ability at great level once their bloodline score reaches 75.

[Question]

One question......at which bloodline score does a regent change from minor to major,major to great,great to true?

[irdeggman]

One question......at which bloodline score does a regent change from minor to major,major to great,great to true?

In 2nd ed they were technically independent of each other. That is a character could have a minor blodline with a higher score than character with a great bloodline had.

In the BRCS they are likewise independent but it is possible to raise a bloodlinestrength (could also be done in 2nd ed - see Book of Regency for details on the mechanics, the BRCS mechanics are real similar though).

BRCS - Chap 2 sanctioned version:


Increasing bloodline strength

Over time, a character's bloodline score may grow stronger through wise rule as a regent, by confronting the scions of other bloodlines and defeating them in heroic combat (usurpation) or by an act of Investiture. Increasing a character's bloodline strength (from minor to major, for example,) is a related, but even more difficult accomplishment.

The first step toward increasing a scion's bloodline strength lies in his ability score. The scion must increase his bloodline score to ten or more points above its starting value. Secondly, the character must achieve public fame (or infamy) through their deeds and actions. Legendary feats build the public acclaim that is essential to increasing the strength of a character's semi-divine blood. A quest to increase one's bloodline strength requires an epic deed; an increase in bloodline strength never occurs without deeds that are the stuff of legend. A character can never increase his bloodline strength more than once in a generation; this reflects how legendary the act truly is.


When an increase of bloodline strength occurs, the character upgrades their bloodline strength to the next level. The character is now eligible to gain another level of the scion class. Once that class level is taken then any associated benefits are gained, except the character does not gain the bonus to bloodline score that is normally associated with the scion class level – they have had to earn those bonus score points rather than inheriting them, but their future descendants will receive the bonus.

[huehar]

Maybe useful ideas for someone who is searching the answer now:
in our campaign (3.5) after years and tons of research actions we found a few ways to defeat the Azrai bloodline :
- the original Sword of vassalage (lost in Giantdowns) has the power to change the derivation of a bloodline
- a scion with true bloodline can sacrifice the true "part" of his bloodline for the sake of purification the another's Azrai bloodline (the sacraficier will have only great bl after that)
- there is a lvl9 cleric spell (Bloodline redemption), not well-known, used in history only once by the Ortodox Temple to purify a Roele Emperor after he killed an awnshegh (it is the opposite of the Magian's Bloodline corruption spell)

Neither of the methods are simple but at great heroes it worth. :-)

[AndrewTall]

15 years, impressive thread necro, but in a good cause ;-)

I would take the view that after so long at least traces of all the bloodlines are in most noble lineages, so the stated bloodline is merely the 'dominant' one (although that leads to the view that scions of Azrai would be seen as very undesirable marriage material.

To change bloodline would require:
a. Avoiding acting in concordance with the of the old god and instead embracing the goals/motivations of the desired old god;
b. Possibly burning bloodline strength down by conversion to RP to weaken the bloodline before trying to rebuild might be necessary.

And then one or more of:

1. Get some of the desired bloodline - by investiture or bloodtheft (the latter being unlikely to change a bloodline away from Azrai);
2. Divest and be invested - but other than an elderly family member who would voluntary give up their bloodline?
3. A quest dedicated to the new god who succeeded the old god whose bloodline is desired in order for them to 'purify' / 'bring out to dominance' the desired bloodline.

It should be difficult (as otherwise social pressures would have wiped out the bloodline of Azrai) but possible (as the game is otherwise less fun, and setting-wise corruption is a feature in Azrai so redemption should also be present to balance it and stop it turning into call of cthulu)

In terms of using this in game play:

Intrigue - regent A tries to 'draw out' regent B's 'subordinate' bloodline and supplant theur dominant one in order to weaken them (usually a subordinate bloodline of Azrai, but one can see it have a bad effect if the regent of Ariya was turned away from Basaia or of Danigau away from Brenna.) That means encouraging regent B to behave according to the tenents of the subordinate bloodline, perhaps leading them to find a sielshegh which is enchanted to encourage such a switch, encouraging regent B into a duel with someone of the subordinate bloodline, etc, etc.

Matter of Justice - regent A claims that regent B's bloodline is not as they state (perhaps after a failed arranged marriage.etc) and that Regent B's actions indicate a different bloodline lies within them. I would expect the details of a familial bloodline to be very secret so regent B to be very reluctant to have themselves probed even if magic is available to check the line directly - but without some sort of proof the rumours will damage regent B's reputation.

Adventure - a scion seeks to change their bloodline and thus their destiny, they seek help from the PC regent for part of the quest, will the hero-king go further and venture beyond their court to aid the scion in completing their quest?

[Sorontar]

Bloodtheft then reincarnation (or similar spell)? Yes, they wouldn't have any blood abailities afterwards and there may be side-effects (e.g. undoing of Long Life, Resistance), but they wouldn't have the "taint" any more.

After all, bloodlines are about the old gods but reincarnation is about the new gods.

Sorontar

[huehar]

Bloodtheft then reincarnation (or similar spell)? Yes, they wouldn't have any blood abailities afterwards and there may be side-effects (e.g. undoing of Long Life, Resistance), but they wouldn't have the "taint" any more.

After all, bloodlines are about the old gods but reincarnation is about the new gods.

Sorontar

I do not know about reincarnation but about resurrection there is a rule in corebooks: after death with losing bloodline (e.g. bloodtheft) you will come back life without bloodline. I think it could be valid at reincarnation, too (the blood cannot be duplicated - one dose for the thefter and one dose for you). And they mention as well that the blood is so valuable that even Azrai cannot (should not) be destroyed (see under bloodline destruction spell). So maybe erasing the whole bloodline just because it is Azrai is not the accepted way (of course it is eligible). My DM would say: if you fear that your Azrai blood will corrupt you, you are weak. Be a real hero and conquer the corruption. :-)

[Michael Romes]

Hi all,
A character in my weekly BR game set in Brechtur recently had his bloodline derivation changed to Azrai by killing a nasty Orog cleric. The character is LG and destined to be the King of a liberated Zweilunds, so this is very much bad news. We've poured thru the canon material, the BRCS, and forums, but we are still looking for inspiration about what to do with this new bad blood. Any and all ideas/comments welcome.

What rules did you use to determine the change? The 3EBRCS?
In that case the bloodline would only change to Azrai if the player had a weaker bloodline score than the Orog Cleric and absorbed the maximum (4X) of RP from him.

If the Orog did release so much RP (10X his bloodline score) how is the one player the only one affected?

Any bloodline score higher than the players would have resulted in a RP burst X 10 and that would be too high for a smaller bloodlines limit (max. 4X) to fully absorb and would be absorbed by his party members according to proximity.

So either the others would be afflicted too - or the player would have commited bloodtheft by actively stabbing the Orog through the heart in which case he practically willingly risked to be tainted.



Simply keeping the new derivation, and hoping that a fall to evil never happens, doesnt seem to be a good option. Are there tons of scions in Cerelia that gain the blood of Azrai and lead happy, Good lives? Should our character's view this change as a serious and bad thing? From a poetic justice and storytelling point of view, placing a scion of Azrai at the helm of your new LG nation seems to be begging for trouble. Either the new King or someone in his line seems destined to fall hard eventually.

Would anyone know? I mean the Book of Magecraft has several spells to determine the bloodline of a character, to mask, disguise etc. That means that noone has an idea without magic that his bloodline changed - perhaps not even himself. After all it is not specifically mentioned that a scion is aware that his bloodline derivation changed. Perhaps the first signs are some ominous dreams in which an unknown voice whispers into the dreams of the PC that he needs to grow stronger to protect his comrades, family, home and realm...

When he had a bloodline before which changed to Azrai was there any obvious change? e.g. did he lose a bloodability he had before that does not exist for Azrai? did he gain a new bloodability that only exists for Azrai? That would be in my opinion the only direct way to know that his bloodline derivation has changed.



Suicide.
Character walks a goodly distance away and offs himself. Blood of Azrai pours out harmlessly,

If you use the RP burst of the 3E BRCS or similar then Azrais blood is never harmless - it might create animals, trees or even FUNGHI with Azrai´s blood. An Azrai blooded sentient MOSQUITO-swarm ^^
The middle of the desert might be an idea - but even there would be sandsnakes or scorpions possible within the blast radius.



then our high level party cleric raises dead the next day. Loss of level and loss of all blood (and thus kingship/destiny) results, but has the benifit of being a quick fix.

How does the cleric atone to his deity for raising a suicide? Think of our own past - people who committed suicide were not allowed to be buried in the holy ground of graveyards for centuries in the past.
Either the suicide itself could barr the cleric from even casting the spell successfully or the idea to steal the soul of a person who commited the highest sacrifice from his earned place in the heavens would.

"The potential for internecine war is not taken lightly in Cerilia
(particularly in Anuire) and thus most churches (including
the church of Haelyn) have dire prohibitions against the resurrection
of regent characters. Likewise many churches forbid
the use of resurrection magic on philosophical grounds. Most
sects of Erik and Belinik, for example, perceive death as part
of the natural order, albeit from different perspectives"



...
Bloodline Investiture
A careful reading of the BRCS reveals that if you transfer your bloodline to someone stronger than you that person has no chance having their bloodline derivation changed. Basically the character would 'donate' his bloodline to the Count of Danigau (Bld 50+) and continue as a commoner.
This of course brings on the question, why dont more scions do this? Several Awnies are good people who dont want to be corrupted (Siren, Manticore, Harpy, ...). Are they just selfishly holding onto their bloodline? A simple realm spell any temple knows, and bingo! no more good people turning bad against their will.

The RP of the donator would be lost. So if he has a heir then that would get nothing.
Depending on bloodline score there might be not that many people with a higher score who could possibly be invested in that way. IMO there should always be a risk when absorbing a bloodline of Azrai to corrupt the own bloodline, even in the case that you have a higher bloodline. The 3E BRCS is a bit rigid in that you only have that risk if you absorb the maximum RP your bloodline allows (bloodline X 4) and then lose a roll.

However if the Count of Danigau has a bloodline of 54 he can absorb a maximum of 216 RP -1 without risk of corruption. Which means the players bloodline that would create a RP burst of 10 X bloodlinescore would be lower than 22?



Bloodline Destruction
Similar to above. Higher level and perhaps rarer realm spell, but still provides a ready solution inside the rules.


That spell in the 3E BRCS costs 10 Gold Bars + RP equal to the targets bloodline score. Which is a hefty price to cure someone.



Some random quest...
Not loosing the bloodline, but rather having it purified and returned to the derivation of Masela it used to be would be nice. We play an adventure-level game, so something involving getting attacked by monsters would be a nice solution. A good version of the Magian's Bloodline Corruption spell known by a far off wizard maybe... Finding a powerful Erghsegh... becoming a paladin and questing for divine salvation... Any deas?

Generally, how should a LG scion familiar with the lore of blood and Awnshegh view this development? Is this a 'hmmm, thats interesting' moment, or a 'burn myself at the stake moment'?

Does he know? Have any bloodabilities changed to make it obvious? Has someone cast a "Know Bloodline derivation" spell?

Perhaps the player should remain silent about that - it is not only a personal problem. There might be fanatical people in the world who would see anything with the blood of Azrai in need of being purged from existance. More radical churches might declare you outlawed if it gets know.

Better hire a bloodline hound (specialist magician) to mask your bloodline for the time being until a solution can be found.

[Fizz]

there is a lvl9 cleric spell (Bloodline redemption), not well-known, used in history only once by the Ortodox Temple to purify a Roele Emperor after he killed an awnshegh (it is the opposite of the Magian's Bloodline corruption spell)

I know Bloodline Corruption is in Blood Enemies, but where is the Bloodline Redemption spell? I have a memory of that but can't recall from where.

-Fizz

[Sorontar]

The Blood Enemies version of Bloodline Corruption isn't quite the same as that in our wiki: http://www.birthright.net/forums/showwiki.php?title=Spell:Bloodline_Corruption. The BE version says only Magian knows the spell (but he has scattered 4 copies to be "stolen" later by others) and that it only has been used on the Manticore. I am not sure where anyone could have found the OIT redemption version.

Sorontar