Elephants

[ausrick]

Just a wondering, I don’t recall any rules to back this one way or another. Are there Elephants in Cerilia? Also, would one particular race (maybe Khinasi?) have access to them and decide to train them into War Elephants or is the idea of the War Elephant strictly Ancient World warfare? Would the addition of (War) Elephants in a campaign destroy, enhance, or leave the same the flavor and color of Birthright? Suggested unit cards for War Elephants? Would War Elephants be unbalancing? Along the lines of this topic, what say ye to Camels?

Why did I capitalize War Elephant and Camel? Because I felt like it :P .

Thanks,

[geeman]

ausrick writes:



> Just a wondering, I don’t recall any rules to back this one way

> or another. Are there Elephants in Cerilia?



I don`t recall any of the texts specifically describing elephants (either LC

or UC "E") but they do describe mammoths existing in the northern regions of

Cerilia. Cerilia is small, but it could support a few herds of elephants.

After all, there are giant lizards and dragons about, so a few pachyderms

aren`t any more improbable.



> Also, would one particular race (maybe Khinasi?) have access to

> them and decide to train them into War Elephants or is the idea of

> the War Elephant strictly Ancient World warfare? Would the addition

> of (War) Elephants in a campaign destroy, enhance, or leave the same

> the flavor and color of Birthright? Suggested unit cards for War

> Elephants? Would War Elephants be unbalancing?



I don`t personally think war elephants would be a problem in regards to BR

flavor, historical precedant or game balance... unless we`re talking about

blooded elephants. Elephant scions would be bad for all three of those

things. :)



Seriously, though, a few elephant companies would be as doable as a few

varsk riders more or less. One runs into the same issues regarding the use

of cavalry of any type (is it still 200 men and their mounts or is it fewer

soldiers of higher levels on proportionally fewer mounts, etc.) but I think

it would be a good thing overall.



> Along the lines of this topic, what say ye to Camels?



I had some rules for using all kinds of animals in my homebrew system of

large scale combat. I`ll see if any of it is in a postable condition in the

next day or two as time permits.



Gary

[Cesari]

Neither Elephants or Camels are in the list in the back of the rulebook. But then, neither is Horse so take that for what you will. I didn't see any mention of Elephants in Cities of the Sun, so I'd imagine there aren't any. Didn't see anything about camels either, but I wasn't really looking for that.


Would the addition of (War) Elephants in a campaign destroy, enhance, or leave the same the flavor and color of Birthright?

It could only enhance the game if there were cannons mounted on the War Elephants' backs. Then it would be the Best Game Ever.

[Raesene Andu]

I have never consider elephants are being present in Cerilia. They would be in Aduria I'd imagine. Camels are a more difficult one. I can't remember a specific mention of camels anywhere in any of the books. They could fit into the Khinasi region, but it would appear that horses are the main means of transport. Again, I usually use camels in Aduria.

[Birthright-L]

Is Aduria just our little slush pile for everything that`s not in Cerelia?



On 5/26/05, Raesene Andu <brnetboard@birthright.net> wrote:

> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

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>

> Raesene Andu wrote:

> I have never consider elephants are being present in Cerilia. They would be in Aduria I`d imagine. Camels are a more difficult one. I can`t remember a specific mention of camels anywhere in any of the books. They could fit into the Khinasi region, but it would appear that horses are the main means of transport. Again, I usually use camels in Aduria.

>

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[Raesene Andu]

Originally posted by Birthright&#045;L@May 27 2005, 06:30 AM
Is Aduria just our little slush pile for everything that`s not in Cerelia?
Not necessarily, it is just that in my version of Aduria both Elephant and Camels fit the setting.

[Osprey]

Is Aduria just our little slush pile for everything that`s not in Cerelia?

It ends up up being a bit like that when you try to make it distinct from Cerilia, which is already a massively diverse cultural conglomerate for such a small continent.

It also African-ish in flavor, which does fit elephants pretty well. Jungle and savannah-stuff too. At least that&#39;s approximate to Raesene&#39;s version, and the Aduria of several other BR.net folks (myself included).

I think if camels were meant to be in Khinasi, they certainly would have been mentioned before - they&#39;re such an essential desert animal that it would be hard to treat their absence as a mere design oversight. However, if camels prosper in the Adurian deserts, and trade were to begin flowing to Cerilia, it&#39;s distinctly possible that camels might be introduced to the Khinasi arid lands in a campaign. One can only imagine what an advantage they would be for desert caravans and some desert cavalry troops (Cataphract Camels, anyone? :)).

War Elephants are awesome. I&#39;d love to see some Adurian War Elephants hitting the battlefield&#33;

Cannons would freak out elephants (especially firing from their backs&#33;). Panicking elephants are real bad for everyone involved.
Heh, TCharAzazel tried to convince me to allow that IMC...nice try.

[Cesari]

Cannons would freak out elephants (especially firing from their backs&#33;). Panicking elephants are real bad for everyone involved

Cast Deafness on the elephants first to keep the noise from being a problem. You&#39;ve gotta have elephant cannon shock troops. It&#39;d be just like that cartoon Dino Riders&#33; Best Game Ever. :D

[geeman]

Osprey writes:



>> Is Aduria just our little slush pile for everything that`s not in

>> Cerelia?

>

> It ends up up being a bit like that when you try to make it distinct

> from Cerilia, which is already a massively diverse cultural

> conglomerate for such a small continent.

>

> It also African-ish in flavor, which does fit elephants pretty well.

> Jungle and savannah-stuff too. At least that`s approximate to Raesene`s

> version, and the Aduria of several other BR.net folks (myself included).



Having been attached to Aduria until the very recent past (from an

evolutionary POV) Cerilia likely has a similar kind of flora and fauna as

that continent. The climate is, of course, different and the bridge between

the areas is pretty slim, but if there are elephants in Aduria they would

probably also exist in Cerilia "naturally" (or as naturally as such things

can be in a fantasy setting.)



That said, they could be Asiatic or African elephants (or some non-Terran

version) so who knows if they can be domesticated using mundane

(non-magical) methods? Using magical methods, of course, means that

anything can be "domesticated" more or less, so to a certain extent the

point is a matter of degree rather than a determinant.



Historically speaking war elepants have great shock value, but are

relatively ineffective on the field. Since we have things like varsk riders

(and a system of large scale combat that tends to normalize the values of

units to something less than they might be if extrapolated purely from their

adventure level D&D stats) I don`t think they`d be terribly imbalancing.



> I think if camels were meant to be in Khinasi, they certainly would

> have been mentioned before - they`re such an essential desert animal

> that it would be hard to treat their absence as a mere design oversight.



I`d agree... but it`d hardly be the most glaring design oversight in the

original texts.... There`s also not really a whole heck of a lot of

exploration of the desert regions of the setting (we have more info on

tundra) so it could easily be something that slipped through the cracks.



> However, if camels prosper in the Adurian deserts, and trade were

> to begin flowing to Cerilia, it`s distinctly possible that camels

> might be introduced to the Khinasi arid lands in a campaign.



Isn`t there a camel in the watercolor background of the CotS text?

IDHtBIFoM....



Gary

[Benjamin]

Originally posted by geeman@May 27 2005, 10:40 AM
Isn`t there a camel in the watercolor background of the CotS text?

If there is, I don&#39;t see it anywhere. I just did a quick look through without success. But it was quick...

[geeman]

Benjamin writes:



>> Isn`t there a camel in the watercolor background of the CotS text?

>

> If there is, I don`t see it anywhere. I just did a quick look

> through without success. But it was quick...



I`ll take a look when I get home tonight. I could just be having an opium

flashback from my study abroad trip to Egypt a few years back....



Gary

[Raesene Andu]

Having been attached to Aduria until the very recent past (from an evolutionary POV) Cerilia likely has a similar kind of flora and fauna as that continent. The climate is, of course, different and the bridge between the areas is pretty slim, but if there are elephants in Aduria they would probably also exist in Cerilia "naturally" (or as naturally as such things can be in a fantasy setting.)

Then why didn&#39;t human already exist in Cerilia? It travel between the two continents was easy enough to allow elephants to walk across to Cerilia, then surely humans would have followed. But humans didn&#39;t arrive in Cerilia until they were forced out of Aduria. Given how far the human race spread across the earth in ancient times before such things as ocean going vessels and airplanes, then there must have been something blocking their way.


I`d agree... but it`d hardly be the most glaring design oversight in the original texts.... There`s also not really a whole heck of a lot of exploration of the desert regions of the setting (we have more info on tundra) so it could easily be something that slipped through the cracks.

There aren&#39;t any true desert regions in Cerilia. The Khinasi lands are more arid plains rather than desert.


Isn`t there a camel in the watercolor background of the CotS text?

I can&#39;t see one. There are several horse, a barrow full of pumpkins, a skeletal horse, a Dhoura, but no camel that I can see.

[Thomas_Percy]

I&#39;m using Al-Qadim accessories at Brt, so elephants and camels are common at my campaign.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Raesene Andu@May 27 2005, 10:20 PM

I`d agree... but it`d hardly be the most glaring design oversight in the original texts....* There`s also not really a whole heck of a lot of exploration of the desert regions of the setting (we have more info on tundra) so it could easily be something that slipped through the cracks.

There aren&#39;t any true desert regions in Cerilia. The Khinasi lands are more arid plains rather than desert.


Ian, you beat me to it.

For those who want to know where this is from check the lost files of Rich Baker in the pinned sections above. He talks about climate and deserts in Khinasi specifically.

[Doyle]

Originally posted by Cesari@May 28 2005, 12:13 AM

Cannons would freak out elephants (especially firing from their backs&#33;). Panicking elephants are real bad for everyone involved

Cast Deafness on the elephants first to keep the noise from being a problem. You&#39;ve gotta have elephant cannon shock troops. It&#39;d be just like that cartoon Dino Riders&#33; Best Game Ever. :D
Cast Deafness to get around cannons firing&#33; Ever stood beside one when it&#39;s gone off? The vibration and (especially for the early cannon), the smell should be enough for panic.
I don&#39;t recall if historically elephants were ever used with cannon (given their extreemly esnsitive ears), but they make great archery platforms, easily negating cavalry, the traditional foil for archer units.
On cavalry - given the rarity of black powder in most BR campaigns, the best use of cannon (and here preferably the light, 2 person transportable ones) would be to fire them just as the cavalry charge is about to hit. From memory the noise and smell was enough to panic any animal (horse, or elephant) not used to it - and given the rarity, very few animal units should be used to it.

In answer to the original question, I do use both elephants and camel in my campaign, but both are rare and only really available in central Khinasi. The elephants are not used in combat units, but are more a curiosity (or problem) to be encountered in an adventure action).

Regards,
Doyle