uses of holdings

[Robert Harper]

At 08:16 AM 7/8/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Has anyone come up with an alternative uses for holdings? It seems that
>while the law and source holdings actually serve a purpose, the guilds
>and temples are pretty well useless for anything other than gaining RPs.
>
>Just a thought, but couldn't temples be used to maintain loyalty and
>prevent rebellion (like the law holdings). And guilds could be used as a
>revenue source. Care would have to be taken to ensure game balance is not
>thrown off, but at least the other holdings would serve a purpose.

I'm not sure I see the problem, each holding type contributes its own niche.
Law might seem most generally applicable, but doesn't generate as much
steady income directly. Source also doesn't generate any income. Temple
and Guild are both the most reliable GB generators next to rule of province
itself. Temple also the anchor for priestly realm magic (perhaps to be
expanded in Book of Priestcraft?) and Guild for trade routes.

As to temples preventing rebellion/increasing loyalty - they do, through
Agitate actions (free for priest, aided by having more powerful holding -
which is likely to be the temple). Thus priests of powerful temples can
easily aid or hinder rulers.

As to using guilds as revenue source?????? IMHO, RTFM.

__________________________________________________ _________________
| |
| We ask ourselves if there is a God, how can this happen? |
| Better to ask, if there is a God, must it be sane? |
| |
| Lucien LaCroix |
|_________________________________________________ __________________|

[Brenda L Santer]

>Has anyone come up with an alternative uses for holdings? It seems that
>while the law and source holdings actually serve a purpose, the guilds
>and temples are pretty well useless for anything other than gaining RPs.
>
>Just a thought, but couldn't temples be used to maintain loyalty and
>prevent rebellion (like the law holdings). And guilds could be used as a
>revenue source. Care would have to be taken to ensure game balance is not
>thrown off, but at least the other holdings would serve a purpose.
>
>Any other ideas?
>
>Noah
>
>************************************************** *************************
>>A couple of reasons to have temple holdings:
1)so you can cast priest realm spells. There are several in the rule book,
there was a dragon article a while back with several more, Darkstar's
website has some as well, and the long-awaited Book of Priestcraft is to
have more again.
2)Investiture is a priest realm spell. No temple holdings=no realm spells=
no investiture of acquired lands by the ruler of the country or others.
3)Temple holdings also generate income as in Table 18 of the Rulebook.
Money is always a good reason.
4)Just to keep others from getting them or to give power in another
country. In the Ruins of Empire book Guilder Kalien of Endier has a few
holdings that do not generate regency for him (Law in Alamie and Medoere as
well as temple holdings in Diemed) but which do secure his power base.


A couple of reasons to have guild holdings:
1)trade routes require guild holdings
2)sea trade routes need guild holdings.
3)trade chains require guild holdings
4)exploratory trade requires guild holdings.

All of the above generate income, in fairly substantial quantities.

5)as with Temple holdings, guild holdings also generate income as in Table
18 of the Rulebook. Money is always a good reason.
6)according to the Rulebook, guild holdings improve the chances of success
for espionage actions performed by the holder of the guild holdings.
7)again according to the rulebook, guild holdings provide a thief regent
with thugs who will supply information and muscle. As long as a thief
regent has a holding in a province, he can evade capture/arrest
indefinitely.
8)just to build up a power base.

Hope this helps.

*************************************
Brenda Santer:


mailto:bls127@mail.usask.ca
*************************************

[Morten Helles]

> Has anyone come up with an alternative uses for holdings? It seems
> that while the law and source holdings actually serve a purpose, the
> guilds and temples are pretty well useless for anything other than > gaining RPs.
>
> Just a thought, but couldn't temples be used to maintain loyalty and
> prevent rebellion (like the law holdings). And guilds could be used
> as a revenue source. Care would have to be taken to ensure
> game balance is not thrown off, but at least the other holdings would
> serve a purpose.

I think you have misunderstood the rules on this one. As stated by table
18 on page 43 in the Rulebook both guild and temple holdings collect a
LOT of money. For most regents this is purpose enough. Besides
collecting both RPs and GBs, temple holdings also provide priests the
power to cast realm spells.

Morten.

PS: I guess no one wanted to play thief or priest in your campaign, eh?

+

[araqyl@spin.net.au (Jes]

>Has anyone come up with an alternative uses for holdings? It seems that
>while the law and source holdings actually serve a purpose, the guilds
>and temples are pretty well useless for anything other than gaining RPs.
>
>Just a thought, but couldn't temples be used to maintain loyalty and
>prevent rebellion (like the law holdings). And guilds could be used as a
>revenue source. Care would have to be taken to ensure game balance is not
>thrown off, but at least the other holdings would serve a purpose.
>
>Any other ideas?
>
>Noah
>
>************************************************** *************************

IDHTBIFOM, but I think Temple and Guild Holdings can both generate income
for the controlling regent... it's in the rule book, on the same page as
province taxes, IIRC...

Also, there's the obvious advantage for priests (and, in some campaigns I've
seen, paladins) of Temple Holdings allowing the casting of Realm Magic.

Oh, and I think Guild Holdings are also required for constructing trade routes??

So, IIRC, Temple and Guild Holdings are pretty useful to everyone already...

See ya,
Jeremy Scrimes
araqyl@spin.net.au
aka: Jes, Bolt, Araqyl, Jeremiah, Jeremy Hinoski.

[Robert Ripley]

Noah Robert Zerbe wrote:

> Has anyone come up with an alternative uses for holdings? It seems
> that
> while the law and source holdings actually serve a purpose, the guilds
>
> and temples are pretty well useless for anything other than gaining
> RPs.
>
> Just a thought, but couldn't temples be used to maintain loyalty and
> prevent rebellion (like the law holdings). And guilds could be used
> as a
> revenue source. Care would have to be taken to ensure game balance is
> not
> thrown off, but at least the other holdings would serve a purpose.
>
> Any other ideas?

Temple holdings are used in the Agitate action (priests get a free one
to represent what you just said.)And Guilds are used in the Trade Route
action, to create extra revenue. You have to take actions to use them
but it works out to what you are looking for.

If you are thinking that a fighter Nation Regent who owns Law and
Guild and Temple holdings needs more bonuses from them, then I think
that the game designers gave the other classes bonuses so that it would
limit his power a bit.
(I still think that only the Thief class can set up a trade route.)
- --

Bob R.

************************************************** *****************************

PBeM- Birthright, Regents of the Southern Marches
http://home.earthlink.net/~bobripley/index.html
http://molokai.ucsd.edu/pbem
bobripley@earthlink.net
************************************************** *****************************

[Robert Ripley]

> A couple of reasons to have guild holdings:
> 1)trade routes require guild holdings
> 2)sea trade routes need guild holdings.



> 3)trade chains require guild holdings
> 4)exploratory trade requires guild holdings.

Hey Brenda.. what are these last 2?

- --

Bob R.

************************************************** *****************************

PBeM- Birthright, Regents of the Southern Marches
http://home.earthlink.net/~bobripley/index.html
http://molokai.ucsd.edu/pbem
bobripley@earthlink.net
************************************************** *****************************

[Brenda L Santer]

>> 3)trade chains require guild holdings
>> 4)exploratory trade requires guild holdings.
>
>Hey Brenda.. what are these last 2?
>
>--
>
> Bob R.
>

Both of these are new domain actions found in the Havens of the Great Bay
expansion book by Ed Stark. There is also a new Guilder subclass in there
(as in "Guilder" Kalien),a black strike sword fighting style used by
Brechts, and for those of you who read the Ships and Rivers piece that was
sent in by Ed Stark to this mail list a while back, that is where the
Tower Ships come from.

*************************************
Brenda Santer:


mailto:bls127@mail.usask.ca
*************************************

[Robert Harper]

At 12:36 PM 7/8/97 -0600, you wrote:

>Brechts, and for those of you who read the Ships and Rivers piece that was
>sent in by Ed Stark to this mail list a while back, that is where the
>Tower Ships come from.

I missed the Ships and Rivers piece, can someone email it to me or let me
know when it was posted so I can look it up in archives?

__________________________________________________ _________________
| |
| We ask ourselves if there is a God, how can this happen? |
| Better to ask, if there is a God, must it be sane? |
| |
| Lucien LaCroix |
|_________________________________________________ __________________|

[Robert Ripley]

Brenda L Santer wrote:

> >> 3)trade chains require guild holdings
> >> 4)exploratory trade requires guild holdings.
> >
> >Hey Brenda.. what are these last 2?
> >
> >--
> >
> > Bob R.
> >
>
> Both of these are new domain actions found in the Havens of the Great
> Bay
> expansion book by Ed Stark. There is also a new Guilder subclass in
> there
> (as in "Guilder" Kalien),a black strike sword fighting style used by
> Brechts, and for those of you who read the Ships and Rivers piece that
> was
> sent in by Ed Stark to this mail list a while back, that is where the
>
> Tower Ships come from.

aha I knew there was a Guilder class in one of the Domain books. Of
course it's in the one I don't have..

thanx!
- --

Bob R.

************************************************** *****************************

PBeM- Birthright, Regents of the Southern Marches
http://home.earthlink.net/~bobripley/index.html
http://molokai.ucsd.edu/pbem
bobripley@earthlink.net
************************************************** *****************************

[Dustin Evermore]

tbeutler wrote:
>
>
>On Tue, 08 Jul 1997, Robert Ripley wrote:
>
>> Bob R.
>>
>I agree. The rules try to balance out the different PC classes as
regents.
>Thieves (or guilders) should be the only class to set up trade routes.
Other
>regents can influence this by decrees (allowing/prohibiting the trade
route),
>demanding some of the income ... A regent can "get" a thief ltn to set
up a
>trade route ...
> Todd

Yet, take Tuornen for example. The Duchess has only one Guild holding,
and most domain turns can not generate enough money to support a decent
army, much less improve her lot in life, much. This even by taxing ALL guild
and temple holdings from 10-20% of their total income made in Tuornen!!
Especially in situations like this, I let the non-Thief regent build a
trade route, especially since she's going to have to share some of the
proceeds with someone on the other end.

Heck, if the guildmasters are going to let Lord So-and-so build a trade
route nearby and then not molest it, why not?

DE

[tbeutler@sprynet.co]

On Tue, 08 Jul 1997, Robert Ripley wrote:

>Temple holdings are used in the Agitate action (priests get a free one
>to represent what you just said.)And Guilds are used in the Trade Route
>action, to create extra revenue. You have to take actions to use them
>but it works out to what you are looking for.
>
> If you are thinking that a fighter Nation Regent who owns Law and
>Guild and Temple holdings needs more bonuses from them, then I think
>that the game designers gave the other classes bonuses so that it would
>limit his power a bit.
> (I still think that only the Thief class can set up a trade route.)
>--
>
> Bob R.
>
I agree. The rules try to balance out the different PC classes as regents.
Thieves (or guilders) should be the only class to set up trade routes. Other
regents can influence this by decrees (allowing/prohibiting the trade route),
demanding some of the income ... A regent can "get" a thief ltn to set up a
trade route ...
Todd

[Robert Ripley]

Dustin Evermore wrote:

> tbeutler wrote:
> >
> >
> >On Tue, 08 Jul 1997, Robert Ripley wrote:
> >
> >> Bob R.
> >>
> >I agree. The rules try to balance out the different PC classes as
> regents.
> >Thieves (or guilders) should be the only class to set up trade
> routes.
> Other
> >regents can influence this by decrees (allowing/prohibiting the trade
>
> route),
> >demanding some of the income ... A regent can "get" a thief ltn to
> set
> up a
> >trade route ...
> > Todd
>
> Yet, take Tuornen for example. The Duchess has only one Guild
> holding,
> and most domain turns can not generate enough money to support a
> decent
> army, much less improve her lot in life, much. This even by taxing
> ALL guild
> and temple holdings from 10-20% of their total income made in
> Tuornen!!
> Especially in situations like this, I let the non-Thief regent build a
>
> trade route, especially since she's going to have to share some of the
>
> proceeds with someone on the other end.
>
> Heck, if the guildmasters are going to let Lord So-and-so build a
> trade
> route nearby and then not molest it, why not?
>
> DE

Yes that's true, many nations need Trade Routes, but as someone else
already said, they can always get a Guilder LT. and have them set it up
for them.


- --

Bob R.

************************************************** *****************************

PBeM- Birthright, Regents of the Southern Marches
http://home.earthlink.net/~bobripley/index.html
http://molokai.ucsd.edu/pbem
bobripley@earthlink.net
************************************************** *****************************

[Noah Robert Zerbe]

Has anyone come up with an alternative uses for holdings? It seems that
while the law and source holdings actually serve a purpose, the guilds
and temples are pretty well useless for anything other than gaining RPs.

Just a thought, but couldn't temples be used to maintain loyalty and
prevent rebellion (like the law holdings). And guilds could be used as a
revenue source. Care would have to be taken to ensure game balance is not
thrown off, but at least the other holdings would serve a purpose.

Any other ideas?

Noah