The Gorgon [Archive] - Birthright.net

Midnight

03-30-2005, 08:48 AM

Trying to rule play out the Gorgon, So my question is? Why after hundreds of years has he not taken over every thing! Why does he sit in his Iron keep doing nothing, He is unstopible he has close to 1,000 hp, the only thing that has a chance of saving aginst his death gaze DC is himself, If you pick the ten most powerfull Anuirean charitors and pit them aginst the Gorgon he'll kill one each round for the next ten rounds and be ready for more. Any battle that he leads is a garinted victory, he'll kill the comandor and wade through hundreds of troops with out braking a sweat in fact I doubt any common men-at-arms even show up to a battle they knew the Gorgon would be at. I could understand him boding his time for far reaching goals if he had some thing to fear or some thing to rival him but he doesn't, the only thing that The Gorgon would need to fear is a DM that does not use all his abilities to there best advantages.

Cesari

03-30-2005, 02:24 PM

Well for starters in the actual campaign setting (not the BRCS but the original box set) he wasn't nearly as beefed up, though he was still easily the most powerful guy in cerilia. But there was definatley the possiblity that enough powerful people uniting against him could take him out. And invading and smashing everything is a good reason for them to unite.

As for his current incarnation, the best explination I've heard is that there's no "D&D rules" to the gorgon. That is to say that he doesn't think in terms of initiative, feats, and such. While he knows that he's heavily protected, he doesn't know that the rules make him invincible.

There's an older thread on this board discussing this topic. I'll try and find the URL.

Cesari

03-30-2005, 02:30 PM

http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php...wtopic=2116&hl= (http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=2116&hl=)

Thomas_Percy

03-30-2005, 04:48 PM

I propose to merge all 3 threads together. I've read them all... interesting.
My answer is (as always) from the non-low-magic-Brt:
There are about 5 archmages*, twice as many hierophants, several very high level Fighters and a lots of magic items in Anuire. Meeting all of them in the battle and don't rolling a 1 on d20 only once, this last one, is a miracle. The Gorgon don't counts on miracles.

* Dosiere, Avanil, Boeruine, Mhoried, Ghoere in the original campaign. Maybe Master of College of Sorcery is sixth.

The Jew

03-30-2005, 06:02 PM

Osprey

03-30-2005, 06:28 PM

Seeing as how my campaign is building up final momentum to this very meeting...and yeah, I once had the same question concerning, "How could PC's possibly face him and win?"

Well, in part, I've put that question to the players, so they've been focusing the PC's actions for many years now on preparing themselves for that challenge.

The Gorgon being a super-fighter, anceient awnshegh with a true bloodline, and a high-level wizard definitely makes things difficult in the extreme. Plus he has some immensely potent allies, who IMC are more numerous and even higher level than in the BRCS because about 13 years have passed since 551 MR, and NPC's aren't static in my world.
Yet for all that, the Gorgon and friends are not entirely unbeatable by a prepared group of high-level characters (meaning low-epic levels, 21-25).

Here are a few key points that might enable a victory against the Gorgon:

1. Dimensionally anchor the bastard so he can't teleport away when things look bad for him.

2. Death Ward = immunity to the Gorgon's death gaze. Mass Death Ward, an 8th level cleric spell (Complete Divine), can ward the entire party with a single spell. With a high level caster, it will be tough to dispel by the Gorgon or his best spellcaster, the Hand of Azrai.

3. Keep 1 or 2 primary spellcasters (with high caster levels) ready to counterspell anything the Gorgon casts. Most importantly, counter the Greater Dispel he tries to use to either target a main PC's active spells or rid himself of negative spells (like Dim. Anchor), or counter his real ace-in-the-hole, Antimagic Field.
The Gorgon is a powerful mage, but still only 15th-16th level: not unbeatable by a high-level caster. The PC's in my game are hitting caster levels between 20th and 26th...which means they can out-duel the Gorgon in a magical contest, and successfully dispel his enhancment magics. This is pretty essential, because it means the Gorgon's magical advantage can be neutralized. Having someone else ready to counter the Hand of Azrai's spellcasting is equally important.

4. A powerful targeted dispel against the Gorgon is a key step in neutralizing all of his own prep spells - between the arcane ones he can cast, and the divine ones the Hand can lay on him, he'll be jacked up well beyond his base stats. This is an excellent 1st round opener, right before the Dim. Anchor hits - and so the trap is sprung.

5. A Rod of Negation is a great tool for supporting characters (like a rogue) who can't manage to hit the Gorgon's high AC. Instead, they can target his really potent magic items, like his tighmaevriel sword, armor, and shield, and help bring the Gorgon down to the PCs' level.

6. Obviously the PC's will want every possible enhancement spell they can use before going into physical combat with the big G. A few nifty magic items, like a Greater Ring of Spell Storing, can really help the party's melee fighters with personal cleric spells like Divine Favor and Righteous Might.

7. The party cleric plans to cast Shield Other on the fighter (tank), then be ready with many heal (and mass heal) spells to keep the fighter and himself alive through a full round of attacks by the Gorgon. Very smart tactic.

8. Having at least 2-4 characters who can manage to hit the Gorgon with multiple physical attacks is pretty important - he isn't likely to fail any saves vs. spells, and he might have energy resistances besides (though an archmage with Mastery of Energy might be able to work around that). A couple of strong melee fighters and a good archer make for a strong team.

9. Spells, abilities, and magic items that can lower or bypass natural armor are VERY useful in dropping the Gorgon's main combat defense. The Draconomicon has some good ones for this purpose (Scale Weakening spell, I think, plus some items with similar effects). High level spellcasters should be capable of designing some spells and maybe magic items to this effect.

10. Weaken his natural armor, and negate (suppress) his magic armor, and suddenly the world changes as the rogues can start nailing him with sneak attacks...watch the damage total climb rapidly after this.

With enough specific, long-term and before-battle preparations that includes some high level spellcasters, almost any opponent can be dealt with...even the Gorgon. His stats, levels, hit points, damage-dealing, magic items, and blood ability DC's are all outrageously potent - and in the end, I think it won't be enough to save him from a group of ready PC's and NPC's who are 15+ levels below him. Levels just don't tell the whole story, and at high levels, good preparation can more than compensate for wildy skewed CR's. Trust me. D&D isn't as well-balanced as it claims to be, especially after 20th level.

Osprey

Osprey

03-30-2005, 06:39 PM

I was once in a campaign where we ran into a dragon massively more powerful than ourselves, but we still had some strong magic. Some spell was used like harm, the dragon rolled a 1 on its saving throw and then we easily finished it off. There are what 5 mages capable of casting limited wish, and maybe another 1 or 2 capable of casting wish. Even the Gorgon has to fear that kind of magic.

Unless you have a small army of spellcasters ready and able to throw spells at the Gorgon, relying on him rolling a 1 to fail a save is a poor tactic. Hope for luck, never rely on it.

I would personally like to see the Gorgon toned down a bit though. Maybe a 15th level fighter/11th level mage/3 scion levels. Make it not just possible, but likely that he would be killed if 2/3 of the major character in Anuire united agaisnt him. I mean, how did he advance beyone 30th level? At 30th level he would have personally have to won 4 CR 30 fights to advance. Where did he find these creatures? Not anywhere in Cerilia.

I don't want to see him toned down. I would quite rather he stay at the power of a lesser god...it makes him a truly epic threat.

I've often wondered about getting XP at such high levels for guys like Rhuobhe and the Gorgon. This is something the static xp of 2nd ed never really accounted for - then, the Gorgon could have killed 5 million humans and still gotten the same xp at 1st level or 40th. He just needed to do it a lot more for high levels.

What I imagine is the main source of xp for the Gorgon is a mix of epic contests, mostly in the shadow world against potent outsiders or natives of the SW, and non-combat xp awards: doing impressive stuff on the domain level (espionage and intrigue, military victories, etc.), seeing hundred-year schemes come to fruition...those are good versions of epic xp story awards in my opinion.

See my last post, but let's just say I'm using IMC a more potent version of the Gorgon than in the BRCS (revised feat/skill selection mainly) with more and better lieutenants. And I still think this super-group can be beaten by a band of epic heroes who are nowhere near the Gorgon's level individually. Of course, someof them may (and in fact are likely to) die, but it wouldn't be the greatest battle in history if no one died, now would it? ;)

Osprey

Midnight

03-30-2005, 07:53 PM

Osprey

03-30-2005, 09:55 PM

After looking at link that Osprey posted witch is the same thing I was wondering, I would have to agree with Osprey that the only thing that makes sence to me is that he is a farmer of bloodlines waiting to become a god, and takening over and killing all the scions would be salting his field. Makes playing birthright a little edgy thinking like that because no matter what your char does or where his country is The Gorgon might come to harvest his crop.

Yep...it's been one of the best sources of underlying tension in my campaign. And one of the driving motivations for the PCs to better themselves. Everyone hates living in constant fear and on edge...even worse for regents who've built up truly great domains but have many years before their heirs come of age...a good 10-20 years of chaos should those regents die, which is perfect from Raesene's POV.

Justinius_ExMortis

03-31-2005, 01:08 AM

I myself am in a campaign where the Big-G is getting antsy and starting his inevitable march. I play a high level rogue (19th) Fighter (2) Noble (1, don't ask) and Scion (2). I have a phasing sword, basically a sword that can become brilliant energy on command and revert back also on command, a very high sneak attack, a rod of negation, and the feat lingering damage as well as a ring of blinking. As you can see this opens up several possiblities for me to defeat the Gorgon in a high level group of heroes. I have every intention of negating his armor and then sitting on his ass sneak attacking the hell out of him. A little improved invis. and a slew of enhancing spells especially for my AC and of course the archmage in our crew laying in a few very high caster level greater dispels should really rain on the Gorgons' parade. A very high level cleric to back up the mage with dispels as well as shield other and some heal spells for our main fighter who, though mostly noble levels, is a pretty nasty little sword swinger. That's just our core group. Let us not forget the second archmage in our ranks, the epic Aracane Trickster, the 200 year old Awnsheigh hunting Ranger, and the husband and wife duo of very tricked out and battle tested Rangers. As you can see it's a brutal little group of heroes coming up to the Gorgon with his very immediate and painful death in their collective eyes. I've roleplayed with this campaign and these various PC's and NPC's for over two years now and I can tell you; if I were the Gorgon I'd poo myself in the middle of the battlefield.
I think the primary issue with the Gorgon is that he's been so built up the as the mother of all evil monsters that alot of players are scared. At the same time I think alot of players are far too use to the hack and it dies method of play that is so common in D&D. Only rarely have I ever come across a GM who forces his players to not only out muscle their opponents but also outwit them. Also have I only rarely come across a group of players who choose to outwit their opponents. So when we come across a foe such as the Gorgon. Powerful, tenacious, brutal, and strong in every category we come up with this "oh shit" reaction because alot of the mentality that's been produced out there in the D&D fan base is one of "out muscle the opponent and take his stuff". The Gorgon as a NPC villian demands everything that can be given by both the GM and the players. As you mentioned, why the Gorgon hasn't just mowed down and taken over Anuire is a mystery. While I agree with alot of what Osprey has written on the subject I also believe in a fantasy role playing game there can be many different reasons for things to be the way they are. The Gorgon can be all sorts of things from the classic iconic figure of abosolute evil to the merely confused and tormented soul of a man forever corrupted by what he has done in the past. All in all the issue of the Gorgon, as with all great evils in any kind of story-telling environment cannot be dealt with lightly and demands serious consideration and thought applied to every aspect of this very powerful, very evil, and very enigmatic being.

Whew...that was exhausting, g'night all.

Justinius ExMortis

"The dead are free, it is the living who are enslaved."

The Jew

03-31-2005, 04:26 AM

Originally posted by "Osprey"
Unless you have a small army of spellcasters ready and able to throw spells at the Gorgon, relying on him rolling a 1 to fail a save is a poor tactic. Hope for luck, never rely on it.

It's not a question of relying on him to roll a 1 as a tactic. My post was from the point of view of the Gorgon, not the Regents of Anuire. He may not want to make all out war because their is that chance of failure, and if he all the spellcasters of Anuire go against him their are a good dozen who are 10th level or higher, so he does have to fear that. The only problem is that he could assasinate a ton of them, and would only fight them in a group if he was a fool.

I agree with you Osprey, if a large number of regents grow massively more powerful than any in Anuire right now then they would have a chance of beating him without relying on bad luck on the Gorgons part. But at his current power level and the power level of Anuirean Regents their is no tactic which could be used against him which does not require massive luck. You're campaign is relying on the assumption that all previous rulers have been horribly incompontent compared to your players in both building up realms and gaining levels and that it is not a low level world because of any intrinsic nature. Within a century Cerilia will have become the Forgotten Realms. I am in no way criticising that, i'm sure its a great campaign which the players are enjoying, but it is a major departure from the worlds background and current incarnation.

If he was only 30th level, with 100+ true bloodline, 1 ancient dragon and a that highlevel cleric backing him up, he would still be massively powerful and a major threat to any realm which he choose to move against, only I think their would be a reasonable chance of the full might of Anuire deployed in an intelligent manner of defeating him. Which would explain why he has not moved yet.

Honestly, if he was really into farming them he would kidnap the powerful regents, breed them and then bloodtheft their children.

Osprey

03-31-2005, 06:02 AM

It's not a question of relying on him to roll a 1 as a tactic. My post was from the point of view of the Gorgon, not the Regents of Anuire. He may not want to make all out war because their is that chance of failure, and if he all the spellcasters of Anuire go against him their are a good dozen who are 10th level or higher, so he does have to fear that. The only problem is that he could assasinate a ton of them, and would only fight them in a group if he was a fool.

Under what circumstances would even a majority of the regents of Anuire go against the Gorgon? Part of the way Ruins of Empire sets things up is that the regents of Anuire are engaged in endless squabbling, competition, and general stagnation since the fall of the Empire.

It is my opinion that PC's in the BR campaign setting were never meant to be like the NPC regents from Ruins of Empire. In the beginning, they'll be at the bottom of the pecking order, of course, but eventually they will adventure and rule domains and gain levels and enjoy success more often than not. So a long-term campaign should see the PC's gaining high levels if they keep at it long enough (my campaign has been running for over 2 years now, meeting about once a week).

You're campaign is relying on the assumption that all previous rulers have been horribly incompontent compared to your players in both building up realms and gaining levels and that it is not a low level world because of any intrinsic nature. Within a century Cerilia will have become the Forgotten Realms. I am in no way criticising that, i'm sure its a great campaign which the players are enjoying, but it is a major departure from the worlds background and current incarnation.

I think there's something more involved than just my decision as a DM to move the setting in an epic direction: at the domain level, the rules encourage skillful PC regents to rule up their realms well beyond the RoE levels (especially with the added security of some solid alliances between regents with overlapping domains). In other words, the PC's are set to enter the world at a time when it is ripe for change - even if it's not apparent to them in the beginning.

Based on the original setting, the most apparent plotline for PC regents in Anuire is to be upencoming young regents who do great things with their realms, and eventually are in a position to re-build the Empire (or something like it). That sounds pretty epic to me, and in fact the story works best if the PC's do rise beyond what the NPC regents were ever able to accomplish. If they cannot, then they will be stuck in the same stagnant cycle that the other regents are embroiled in.

What I'm trying to say is that I don't think the original setting was ever meant to be stagnant and remain at the published levels. If it were, it would be a great experience in frustration for most players and PC's. Rather, I think it was set up to be broken wide open, to allow a group of would-be heroes to make their marks and change the face of Anuire forever.

Similarly, I think the Forgotten Realms became the way they were as the result of people playing with normal D&D rules, and then extrapolating what would happen in a world filled with people like D&D player characters.

I see no reason why PCs' in Cerilia couldn't become epic levels, especially if they seek out challenges in the Shadow World as well as the physical and political ones. It's a long, hard road, to be sure, but if you force a setting to remain stagnant, and keep PCs' limited to the levels of ranking NPCs, it keeps the world very small - and allows players and their characters to only ever taste a small piece of the potential of a D&D setting. That doesn't seem terribly heroic to me, yet I feel very confident that the Birthright setting is especially built around the heroic story. PCs reaching high levels means they'll have few peers in power - and this will make their achievements and abilities shine all the more for the contrast.

irdeggman

03-31-2005, 11:24 AM

There are a couple of thoughts concerning the Gorgon:

One commonly posted concept is that when Michael Rhoele gave up his bloodline to the land he "trapped" the Gorgon in his own province. One way it fits is there is no "history" of a Gorgon's march (by himself and not his minions) since his encounter with MR, only rumors and fears.

Another possiblity is because other than the NPC regents there are also the Awnshegh ones. They have at best a shaky alliance with the Gorgon. It is very logical that they would throw in with the humans, elves, dwarves, etc. to prevent the Gorgon from turning on them also. There is no one creature in all of Cerilia that can withstand the onslaught of the combined might of all (or at least a majority) of the remaining creatures. I believe that Raesene, being the military genius is is supposed to be, has learned from what happened at Deismaar and is waiting for the appropriate time to take the Iron Throne. {The elves turned on Azrai at the last minute and it was this coordination of enemies (elves and humans) that turned the tide. So he has seen how enemies will work together for a common goal, he doesn't want to be that goal.} That time being when the most chaos is involved, say a large war between Avan and Beorine (spelling) and after neutralization of some of his most powerful brethren (Rhoube, etc.) this hasn't happened yet in the published material and only when the individual games have evolved to that point would it happen, at least IMO.

Another thing to keep in mind, and something that always bothered me about how the setting was designed - is that once the Gorgon is defeated the game is over. What I mean is that, as Osprey pointed out, the original setting (at least in Anuire) is set up to restore the empire and claim the Iron Throne. This is something that has varying effects throughout Cerilia, but is an essential part of Anuirean culture.

The Gorgon was designed to be the biggest and baddest threat in all of Cerilia. With the setting limitations on other powerful creatures (a lack of dragons for example) without moving on to other "undiscovered" continents or the Shadow World, there is just nothing left to provide an outright challenge in a confrontation. There just can't be any "new" Awnsheglien that suddenly pop up that are more powerful than those with True Bloodlines (Gorgon, Rhoube, Spider, etc.) since one can't suddenly gain a true bloodline or develop one via actions (neither in 2nd ed rules nor in the BRCS). The only ways to get a true bloodline was to have been at Deismaar, be a direct descendant of one who was or through investiture. Pretty much all of which would have been documented via historians throughout Cerilia (especially Anuire and Khinasi).

After defeating the Gorgon the only thing left for heroes is to handle the more mundane politicking of rulership. Gosh anyone that defeats (and can prove it) the Gorgon would pretty much be handed the Iron Throne, if not by the chamberlain than by the people.

Thomas_Percy

03-31-2005, 01:43 PM

Originally posted by The Jew@Mar 31 2005, 05:26 AM
You're campaign is relying on the assumption that all previous rulers have been horribly incompontent compared to your players in both building up realms and gaining levels and that it is not a low level world because of any intrinsic nature.
What Elminster of Shadowdale can answer?

Excerpt from FRCS The Concerns of the Mighty

"I might surprise Manshoon or old Szass Tam and burn him from the face of Toril - or he might do the same to me. It's a rash and short-lived hero who presses for battle when victory is not assured".
And so on. Rest of the text is at page 84 FRCS.

The Jew

03-31-2005, 01:49 PM

Originally posted by "Osprey"
Under what circumstances would even a majority of the regents of Anuire go against the Gorgon? Part of the way Ruins of Empire sets things up is that the regents of Anuire are engaged in endless squabbling, competition, and general stagnation since the fall of the Empire.

Once the Gorgon had smashed through Mhoried, which he would pretty much have to and could easily do if the Gorgon actually tried to conquer all of anuire. That could Unite Anuire. The unleashing of his dragon onto the battlefield.

This thread was started by asking why the Gorgon hadn't conquered the Empire yet. Well since he hasn't really tried, and never entirely defeated Mhoried, it's reasonable to assume that should such an event occur that the Regents might react in a more organized fashion than usual. I'm not saying that they would, but its definitely a possibility.

I'm not going to argue with you on the subject of leveling up to epic levels, though i'm not conceding the point. Your game sounds like a lot of fun, I wish I was a part of it, but it's not in the style that i'm planning when I DM my own birthright game.

Osprey

03-31-2005, 04:03 PM

Once the Gorgon had smashed through Mhoried, which he would pretty much have to and could easily do if the Gorgon actually tried to conquer all of anuire. That could Unite Anuire. The unleashing of his dragon onto the battlefield.

You know, I was just reading through Mhoried's original description in RoE the other day, and one particular piece of text caught my eye, concerning the Guardians of Mhoried (p. 39):
"It's said that once they even repelled the Gorgon himself!"

Now I don't know how you take that, but to me this says that it's legend and near-myth that once, once out of all the generational rampages of the Gorgon's armies, did the armies of Mhoried actually defeat the Gorgon and his armies when they attacked. Implying that all of the other times Mhoried's forces have been wiped all over the earth and used for fertilizer, while the other realms of Anuire have sat back and prayed that the Gorgon wasn't coming for them next!
No, few regents have the cojones to even dare to challenge the Gorgon if they're not defending their own realm. Even the existing alliances (like Alamie-Mhoried-Cariele) are pretty frail and likely would crumble in the face of a serious invasion.

Anyways, attacking Mhoried without incredibly overwhelming force would be a foolish move for the grandmaster of strategy. Costly and a big bleeping target for Anuirean allies to gang up on him. Danged lil' nugget of resistance is Mhoried. ;)

IMC, I've had the big G take a different tact: he marched from the Gorgon's Crown into the lower Giantdowns, easily sweeping aside the pathetic Watch and the few settlers there. Occupy, invest, then build highways, straight from kal-Saitharak to the doorstep of Dhoesone...now the Gorgon has a whole new front on Anuire.

I'm not going to argue with you on the subject of leveling up to epic levels, though i'm not conceding the point. Your game sounds like a lot of fun, I wish I was a part of it, but it's not in the style that i'm planning when I DM my own birthright game.
Aw, c'mon, it's fun! :lol:
Nah, just kidding, to each his own of course. My recommendation, though, is that if you want to get away from power-gaming and stat-crunching, use a system other than D&D - better yet, use a non-D20 system entirely. They're all power-centric and stat-driven, which often detracts from the story (sheesh, do I know it). Part of me loves the stat-crunching, but the storyteller in me hates it...

Anyways, good luck when you do run a campaign...I'd love to hear your ideas for it sometime.

Osprey

osprey424@yahoo.com

Justinius_ExMortis

03-31-2005, 08:58 PM

I think I'll interject and try to answer Midnights' original question.

Why the Gorgon hasn't just marched forth and claimed all of Anuire or even Cerilia.

Let me recap a little of what others have written.

1. The Gorgon, a brilliant tactician, is aware of what a united Anuire could do to his forces. While he himself may be able to mow down entire armies he can't exactly hold alot of territory without the use of a standing army with which to garrison and enforce his law.

2. The Gorgon is a very good mage some may even say a beginning archmage. He is not however the most powerful nor the only high level mage in Anuire. In the above posts five other high level mages have been identified. If these individuals are pushed enough they may turn around and stomp on him. Fighter levels only mean anything to an archmage if the target can get within weapons range of the wizard. Otherwise it only means high hitpoints and solid fortitude saves. I think it's safe to assume to the Gorgon only began picking up Wizard levels after mastering his fighting capabilities. He strikes me as that methodical.

If I missed any please let me know but I think that about covers it. Here's some additional points.

3. The Gorgon is over two thousand years old. I would imagine boredom is the one opponent he can't beat. Why rule over all of Anuire when he can march out every few decades and have a rousing good time slaughtering? He's a fighter at heart and all fighters are men of action. Thus being involved in some combat action I would imagine is pretty high on his list of things that keep me awake.

4. Same goes for kidnapping powerful bloodline scions and breeding them. Breeding does not increase a bloodline, it merely maintains it. A scion engaged in good rulership and constant struggle raises his bloodline. The Gorgon is treating Anuire like a breeding project. He's treating Anuire as if he were it's God. Let the mortals fight amongst themselves and select the greatest of them for ahem..."advancement". Also just breeding them falls again under the above boredom issue.

The following are some theories I've developed with a great deal of help from fellow players and my GM.

5. Perhaps when the Gorgon ran Michael Roele through he didn't get the bloodline but perhaps something else transferred? Slaying your last living directly related relative affects people, even twisted evil bastards. A shard of Michaels mind or spirit in the Gorgons mind/spirit? An almost tragic multiple personality issue could develop. Every time the Gorgon stands on the precipice of total victory the voice in his mind gets louder and more insistent, driving him to distraction and screwing up his chances.

6. The human mind has issues holding onto memories of more than a few decades, or even retaining personal details and knowledge of more than a hundred people at any given time. It's only meant to hold so much information at it's current capabilities. A tremendously extended lifespan does not mean the brains functions will change to match. So what if the Gorgons mind hasn't changed to match his vast life expectancy? He'd have trouble retaining memory and information from more than say a hundred years ago. I would imagine staying connected to the everyday world is difficult for such a person and developing longterm plans may be easy but short term and immediate future stuff would very likely become difficult. After a thousand years of longterm planning the idea of a plan taking only a few days to complete would be almost like a completely new concept.

7. With great power comes great enemies. The other awnsheigh I doubt would be terribly excited after thousands of years of independance to have to bend knee or be destroyed by the Gorgon. Especially Rhoube or the Spider. The Gorgon is a brilliant tactician and I'm sure something like this has occured to him. Also I think the Gorgon is probably one of the few beings that is he should take absolute power over Anuire and eventually Cerilia the Gods themselves may take a direct hand. The closer he comes to a god in power the more the existing Gods will take note of him. Again, this is something he very likely has thought of.

Well; hopefully these will help you out Midnight. Just some thoughts I've had and I'm sure at least one of them can help you out. Obviously feel free to use or not use what I've written or even use them as a basis for your own ideas.

Justinius ExMortis

"The Righteous are the first to fall for their cause. They're also the first to fail to further their cause because of this mighty sacrifice."

Thomas_Percy

03-31-2005, 10:15 PM

A word about this bloodlines breeding.

Not only Gorgon can do it, but every smart awnsheghlien too.
Imho it makes a "Highlander"-like rituals of bloodtheft a technology a la nazi.
You know, one "dr Mengele" is That One Mad Scientifist but a lot of doctors is a bug of the system.

Maybe You can create:
- a blood ability
- realm spell
functioning like a Contingency spell eg. "If they will catch me and I will XXX, my bloodline will be transfered to my children".
?????????????????????

---------------------------------------------------------------------

And back...
Midnight's question is a quastion about many more creatures than Gorgon.
In our setting there is eg. Moergan Deepshadow, ex-assassin, ex-condotier, ex-diabolist acolite and present marshall of 2000 condotiers, self-proclaimed ruler of Calrie and mercenary of Kalien. He is an CE epic level Ftr an there is no match among Anuirean fighters for him.
He is an NPC. I created him many years ago as a lieutenant for PC guilder regent at Coeranys (as an assassin), but until then he became a NPC-hero of several adventures (killed White Witch with PCs among them) of two generations of our PC-heroes of Anuire. He survived.
And now he is growing older. What can do such as nearly invincible fighter (and his epic pirate captain Gypsy girl-friend) when they are nearly old.
Kurgan (from "Highlander" movie) said: "It's better to burn out than fade away!"
A it is sad truth for older heroes.
What he can do?
?????????????????????? :)

stats: Moergan Deepshadow: Male Half-Fiend Human Anuirean Ftr12/Asn1/WaM7; Medium Outsider (augmented humanoid, native); CR 23;
HD 1d6+19d10+140; hp 336;
Init +4; Spd 40 ft/x4; Fly 30 ft.(avg);
AC 38 (+12 armor, +4 dex, +6 natural, +5 deflection, +1 misc), touch 20, flat-footed 34;
Base Atk/Grapple +19/+31;
Full Atk +36/+36/+31/+26/+21 (2d6+23+[1 Con, wounding]+[1d6, sneak]+[Fort DC14 or die, death attack]+[20, smite good]+[Fort DC20 or 1d6/2d6Con, poison]; 17-20/x2, Shatterspike Greatsword+3 of Wounding),
+25/+25/+20/+25/+10 (1d8+11+[1d6, sneak]+[Fort DC14 or die, death attack]+[Fort DC20 or 1d6/2d6Con, poison]; 20/x3, Composite Longbow+1 of Distance and Seeking [+10 Str]),
+31/+31 (1d10+11+[Fort DC14 or Contagion] +[1d6, sneak]+[Fort DC14 or die, death attack]; 20/x2, 2 Claws);
SA: Sneak Attack: 1d6, Death Attack: Fort DC14, Smite Good(Su): 1/day, dmg +20, Spell-Like Abilities
SQ: SR 30, Resistance to acid 10, cold 10, electricity 10, fire 10, sonic 10, Immunity to poison, DR 10/magic, Darkvision 60 feet.
AL CE; SV Fort +26, Ref +19, Will +13;
Str 32(+11), Dex 19(+4), Con 25(+7), Int 16(+3), Wis 12(+1), Cha 24(+7);
Skills: Craft (siegecraft) +27, Diplomacy +18[+22], Heal +3, Intimidate +9, Listen +13, Ride +6, Sense Motive +11, Spellcraft +14, Spot +13, Use Magic Device +21.
Feats: Blind-Fight, Combat Expertise, Whirlwind Attack, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Improved Critical(Greatsword), Leadership (31), Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Sunder, Weapon Focus(Greatsword), Weapon Specialization(Greatsword), Greater Weapon Focus(Greatsword), Greater Weapon Specialization(Greatsword)

Battle Standard(Su): Battle Cry and Rally Troops as long as the standard is within range, and held by you.
Battle Cry(Su): +1 to hit and dmg, 7 rd, 7/day.
Direct Troops(Su): +2 competence bonus on attacks or skill, 7 rd.
Rally Troops(Su): second saving throw against fear and charm. Even if they fail the saving throw, any fear effects are less severe: panicked characters are only frightened, frightened characters are only shaken, and shaken characters are unaffected.
Hard March: +4 morale bonus to Con

Spell-Like Abilities: 3/day: Darkness, Poison, Unholy Aura, 1/day: Desecrate, Unholy Blight, Contagion, Blasphemy, Unhallow, Horrid wilting, Summon monster IX (fiends only), Destruction
Spells: Obscurement, True Strike

Possessions: Oxidized Mithral Glamered Demon Armor of Sonic Resistance and Light Fortification, Helmet of Charisma +6, Ring of Mind Blank, Ring of Protection +5, Vest of Resistance +5, Robe of Freedom of Movement, Eyes of the eagle, Cloak of Natural Armor +5, Scarab of Protection, Bracelet of Friends, Gauntlets of giant Strength +6, Belt of health +6, Boots of speed, Bag of holding type IV, Gem of Seeing, Stone of Good Luck (Luckstone), 20 doses of Deathblade poison

epicsoul

03-31-2005, 10:17 PM

A good summary. I think it's valid to say this again too:

Ultimately, the Gorgon as a foe was one of those creatures that it is up to the DM to figure out why he doesn't conquer everything. It could be any of the reasons above. Or a mixture of all of them.

Heck, one BR campaign I played in, rather than ran, had a Sauron scenario for him... that all his power was tied into a device or item. Destroy the item, and you destroy him. And he couldn't travel with the device... it was stuck at Kal Saitharak. So, he could leave it unguarded by him, to go on his rampage, or he could send forth his minions to do his bidding.

Mostly, I have stuck with the idea that he is pinned in Kal-Saitharak for some reason nowadays... and that it mostly has to do with his blood ability. That he has tied himself too strongly, either because of Michael Roele, or his blood, to the place, and is weakened the farther he gets from there. Pinned because somehow, Michael's bloodline, infused with the Arcane Sanctum that was established there by Raesene, combined to make a curse on Raesene. How weakened? A rule of thumb for me was for EVERY province removed from Kal-Saitharak, he has all of his ability scores and damage reduction, including his Bloodline strength, reduced by 5%. Not much, you may say... until you realize that ALL of his abilities are reduced by 30% just to attack Mhoried. If he marched all the way to the Imperial City, it's a loss of 70%... making him dumb as a brick and a strength of only 13. He loses his spell abilities, plus a massive chunk of his hit points. Losing 30% of his ability scores on the border of Mhoried using BRCS stats makes him at least manageable. It reduces all those bonuses to the point that he can actually possibly be driven back by Mhoried's army... especially if you reduce his damage reduction as well. It also reduces his blood powers and death gaze to a more manageable level. It even means that his spells are weaker; he doesn't even have access to his highest level spells.

What does this do? It makes for a foe that in the seat of his power, is absolutely nearly indestructable (barring some of the plans some of you folks above have posted). A permanent thorn in the side of Anuire, that even an Emperor may not be able to defeat with all their armies... but lure him out, and he could be defeated. In fact, the Gorgon himself is terrified of going to the Shadow World, and being completely cut off from his power... which could kill him. (lose 5% of his abilities every round in the shadow world) Interestingly, this ties into a previous thread about teleportation - as I view every teleportation done in BR as stepping through the shadow world, even momentarily, Gorgie teleporting would make him lose a further 5%of his attributes until he returned to his seat of power.

The weakness in this is that why hasn't he at least conquered a wide RADIUS around Kal-Saitharak? Well... I didn't say the plan was completely perfect.

Question

04-01-2005, 03:36 AM

Gorgon = cheese.Thats all.

Osprey

04-01-2005, 06:21 AM

The weakness in this is that why hasn't he at least conquered a wide RADIUS around Kal-Saitharak? Well... I didn't say the plan was completely perfect.

It may not be perfect, but it's one of the most interesting new ideas I've heard as an explanation for the Gorgon's inability to conquer Anuire. I'm not sure if I like the 5% per province idea per se, but the basic premise that the Gorgon is tied to his seat of power in Kal-Saitharak is really very good. There are a lot of variations on that theme that could be played out - like time away weakens him, rather than distance. Or just monkey with the distance factors a bit (I think 5% per province is a bit harsh - if I used that idea I would tone down the penalties somewhat).

Heh heh, it might do very well to explain how the Gorgon got all that xp to level up so high, though - if he's only fighting enemies at a certain percent of his full strength, then he's effectively a lower level character, which means lower CR creatures should still grant him some xp awards when he defeats them. Very pat. B)

Lee

04-01-2005, 04:50 PM

In a message dated 3/31/05 11:18:35 AM Eastern Standard Time,

brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET writes:

<< IMC, I`ve had the big G take a different tact: he marched from the

Gorgon`s Crown into the lower Giantdowns, easily sweeping aside the pathetic Watch

and the few settlers there. Occupy, invest, then build highways, straight from

kal-Saitharak to the doorstep of Dhoesone...now the Gorgon has a whole new

front on Anuire. >>

Thought about that once, when I was running the Giantdowns, but I could never

get the Players interested in taking the reins, so I could watch them try to

buck up the Dhoesone-Tuarhievel alliance.

Overall, I`m in the camp that thinks he comes out to "harvest" and is

playing god with "his" continent. Although, I wonder if he is concerned about

the Serpent, Raven and Magian? If he weakens himself visibly, one of them might

dump a big realm spell on him.

Lee.

Archangel

04-08-2005, 02:46 AM

The Gorgon is also a general at heart. Military victories are important to him, and while he alone might be able to wade through a few units of Anuirean knights, he might lose hundreds of men in a battle. Generals have this incredible love of controlling large battles, but most of them do feel the remorse of when their men lose or even win a Pyrrhic victory. The Gorgon, far from being chaotic evil, probably plays on this very much.

Another thing to wonder about is the Realm of the White Witch. With the Crown separated from it by the speedbumps that are the Giantdowns, would the Gorgon be nervous about a large military undertaking in Anuire with such a powerful nation behind it?

Osprey

04-08-2005, 12:57 PM

Another thing to wonder about is the Realm of the White Witch. With the Crown separated from it by the speedbumps that are the Giantdowns, would the Gorgon be nervous about a large military undertaking in Anuire with such a powerful nation behind it?

I doubt it. The White Witch had a hard time taking just one province of the whole Giantdowns, and can't really hold it very well since she's relying on a disloyal captain to do so. The WW has too many enemies of her own - it seems Ghuralli is too strong for her to conquer, never mind the far superior forces of the Gorgon.

Lee

04-08-2005, 03:40 PM

In a message dated 4/7/05 11:11:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET writes:

<< Another thing to wonder about is the Realm of the White Witch. With the

Crown separated from it by the speedbumps that are the Giantdowns, would the

Gorgon be nervous about a large military undertaking in Anuire with such a

powerful nation behind it? >>

I`d say she has a way to go to get into G`s league.

Lee.

Midnight

04-08-2005, 11:35 PM

The white witch has a ways to go before she is in the same ball game as the Gorgon and I don't think even If the Gorgon luanched a major attack she would dare to incure the Gorgon's wraith. But if the White witch strengthened her realm and added some more income or land to her kingdom she might get bold enough to stand against the Gorgon.

Osprey

04-09-2005, 04:01 AM

For long-lived awnshegh and other heroes or villains of renown, it's not just a question of domain strength, either...personal power, and how one measures up one-on-one, eclipse the size of one's income or domain or armies...though domain and bloodline can be pretty important too. As a regent, the Gorgon is nigh-invincible (just try to get into an RP bidding war with the big G, and watch what happens), and as a personal combatant, well...history tells the fates of his foes well enough. The greatest fear anyone, particularly one with a strong bloodline, must possess is the fear of incurring the personal wrath of the Gorgon. The White Witch would very rapidly end up as just another victim, one more spark of bloodpower on the path to godhood.

Cardinal Malik

04-09-2005, 07:50 AM

Though the Gorgon seems invinceable, there are ways...
In the campaign I played in our DM used a cinematic approach, after all Birthright is more enjoyable as an intrigue filled roleplaying game than a rules heavy wargame.
After finally reaching 18th level, the Gorgon attacked our party. At a festival for a visiting noble, an NPC we thought had died suddenly changed into the Gorgon. He killed most of the group without hesitation and then teleported away.
My PC, the regent of Diemed, along with the new PC's went around to other kingdoms trying to gather armies for an assault on Kal-Sitharak. The Gorgon's armies met ours in northern Mhoried.

*our group had played through the sword of Roele adventure and along with the mended artifact we found the standard of Roele in a dungeon in the 5 peaks. when the Gorgon saw my items, he challenged me to single combat, I accepted and the DM laughed as he began destroying my PC. I got a lucky hit against the Gorgon, but the awnshiegh, angered, tried his gaze attack on me. and failed. On his next attack the Gorgon brought me to 8 hp. My PC failed a reflex save and fell to the ground. Suddenly an explosion occured and the DM said that the long lost bloodline of Roele filled my PC and gave me the effects of Divine Wrath. I got 40 temporary HP and then the Gorgon smacked me and brought me to 2 HP. Then he tried his gaze attack on me again.
At that moment the High mage Aelies (played by a PC) gast mirror reflection on my helm. The spell turned on the awnshiegh and turned him to stone. I then used the sword of Roele on him and cut off his head.

Granted, this might not have worked had we played close attention to the rules, but it made for a challenging and satisfying encounter with the creature and it was an excellent end to our 6 year bright campaign.
So I recomend killing the Gorgon after a well crafted storyline that relies more on player inteligence and strategy than on powers and rules.

Midnight

04-09-2005, 08:46 AM

Well i guess I will have to admit that the Gorgon is beatible being that It is possible still not very likly but possible. But leting my mind wonder to the Gorgon again and seeing how there are not very many high level PC's or NPC's at the point in wich you start play leads me to these's thoughts. Either PC's and NPC's hardly ever reach high levels because of the militaristic side of Birthright that so many problems get solved with armys rather than adventures, not saying that there is not a whole slew of adventuring to do but some of the best hero canidets get sucked up into the services of regents and don't reach there full potental. or before they become to much of a threat to the Gorgon he kills them.
Now from what I know of the History of Birthright I haven't herd all that much of the Gorgon personaly killing hero's but I'm sure he does kill his share. So if that is true I would belive that first the Gorgon would try to tempt the PC to try and be stupid enough to come into his domain, but deciet trickery or out right chalenging his manhood and once the pc is there he kills him. But this won't work on all our Birthright hero's so that would leave me to belive that he would have them killed by other means than his own hand. Now he wouldn't want them to be killed in a way that would denie him self there blood so I would belive he would send one of his many luetents/assiasins to do the Job and latter when his lacky's begine ploting aginst him or need to be replaced he'll get his blood.