Teleport in BR

[Osprey]

I was curious as to how different DM's/games handle teleportation and teleport error in Birthright.

Myself, I leave a 5% chance of error (1 in 20) for Dimension Door (4th), double the chance of error for Teleport (5th), and have Greater Teleport (7th) and Circle of Teleportation work as per the normal margins of error for Teleport as it is in the PHB.

One of the problems I run into is that becausde every mage with half a brain knows of the dangers of teleporting, they tend to have an 'extra' one as backup in case anything goes wrong. So the few times IMC that characters mis-jump, they just trieed again and prayed they roll better. Which they did.

The main function I find the teleport-error rule plays is to help discourage blatant teleportation as a standard mode of travel. Though the arcane trickster PC doesn't seem to mind much...maybe 'cause he's a Shadow Walker, I don't know.

Any other ideas/thoughts on teleporting in Aebrynis?

Osprey

[Thomas_Percy]

If you like journey-adventures, play at levels 1-8, when PCs have no Teleport (especially at levels 1-4 when they have no Phantom Steed, too).
At higher levels you can create journey-adventures based on the idea of tracking someone or escorting someone with uncontrollable SR which makes Teleport impossible.
I personally like Teleport.
I DM-ed "Bastion of Broken Souls" in Anuire, detective adventure with Teleport as a core way of transport.
Last weekend I DM-ed a diplomatic adventure for just two PC: Wiz20 & epicWiz, who Teleport from Banien's Deep (their source) to: Calrie, Moriel, Ruorven, Proudglaive multiple times just to talk with regents. It was 2 weeks of life of PC, if they travel by horse, it can take months. Especially that I made a map 2 x bigger:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/Anuire/Maps/easternmarches.jpg

[Osprey]

That's an interesting re-make of southern Anuire there...neither Ghoere nor Diemed I noticed.

Did you make that map? If so, how? By altering jpeg images with a photo editor?

[Thomas_Percy]

Yes, I done it in MSPaint & PhotoShop from jgp.
A lot of work, especially deleting nation borders.

[epicsoul]

I heavily enforce teleportation in BR. Based on where the pc's are, and the level of sources nearby, each teleportation or dim door has a chance of landing the pc's in the shadow world.

Without a way out, as teleportation will NOT get them out, only in. They have to find a gateway back out. Or, if they have a halfling of sufficient power with them...

It prevents massive teleportation political assasinations from occurring, a nightmare at the least, if most teleport level mages can do it at will.

[Thomas_Percy]

Regents have Forbiddance, Hallow (Dimension Anchor) etc. to prevent teleportation into theirs castles.
We can create a useful castle & VIP protection Realm Spell, too.

[epicsoul]

Regents have Forbiddance, Hallow (Dimension Anchor) etc. to prevent teleportation into theirs castles.
We can create a useful castle & VIP protection Realm Spell, too.

That assumes that every regent has access to a caster of at least 9th level. Now, admittedly, if the PCs have teleport already, then the campaign is already into the high levels. However, the average level of many regents is significantly less, including most of the divine spell casters. Sure, the "average" wizard regent is about 10th level, and will have access to Dimensional Anchor, but without the divine caster for Hallow, Dim Anchor only has a duration of 1 min/level.

An arcane teleporting assasin has a major advantage in any campaign setting, but especially in BR, with the lack of defences against them, so there must be some extra disadvantage.

I have always ruled that ANY type of travel spell uses the shadow world somewhat. Many of the PBEMs I have played in do too, so as to prevent abuse.

Perhaps it is a matter of personal taste; resurrection spells and teleport spells have always taken a great chunk out of the game's flavour IMO. It's pretty hard to craft any type of adventure when the party can go anywhere, instantaneously, without fear of death. These are high level adventurers where the opponent has to be granted equal capability, making the world into another FR clone.

Don't get me wrong; I can enjoy a high level campaign as much as the next person. But, if we want to stay in flavour, BR should restrict travel spells.

[Trithemius]

Originally posted by epicsoul@Mar 10 2005, 04:41 AM
That assumes that every regent has access to a caster of at least 9th level. Now, admittedly, if the PCs have teleport already, then the campaign is already into the high levels. However, the average level of many regents is significantly less, including most of the divine spell casters. Sure, the "average" wizard regent is about 10th level, and will have access to Dimensional Anchor, but without the divine caster for Hallow, Dim Anchor only has a duration of 1 min/level.
Priestly magic is advanced in Cerilia, especially by comparison to the state of arcane magic; ancient fortresses could very well have this level of protection.

Alternatively you could assume that relics and prayers are included in the construction of all major structures, as they often were in medieval Europe. This could provide a "free" mantle of protective spells for castles. This could also serve to reduce the effectivness of wizards as one-person siege-trains.

[Trithemius]

Originally posted by epicsoul@Mar 9 2005, 06:49 PM
I heavily enforce teleportation in BR. Based on where the pc's are, and the level of sources nearby, each teleportation or dim door has a chance of landing the pc's in the shadow world.

Without a way out, as teleportation will NOT get them out, only in. They have to find a gateway back out. Or, if they have a halfling of sufficient power with them...

It prevents massive teleportation political assasinations from occurring, a nightmare at the least, if most teleport level mages can do it at will.
Since, to my understanding, the Shadow World is the main transitive plane in BR (replacing Shadow, Astral, and Ethereal) I expect that transportional magic might have all sorts of additional risks, especially if the "line of travel" crosses battlefields and other unsavoury places.

Also, how many high level wizards are really interested in teleportation-based assassinations? I expect most of them are more interested in the higher mysteries of their art, not in murdering rivals. If they did decide to murder people, why not make use of invisible stalkers or other magical assassins, perhaps ones that are native to the Shadow World and so not imperiled by travelling through it?

[morgramen]

I mostly canned such spells IMC, just to prevent such problems. (Even Invisibility is non-existant, the best you can get is Chameleon Power, and Flying has never been invented either.) I do subscribe to the Shadow World angle though, and have replaced the "summoning" and other "planar" based spells to utilize the shadow world.

[Osprey]

IMO a truly low-magic setting would have to scrap the D&D magic system altogether, or at least 80% of it. Divination, enchantment, illusion, and some abjuration spells would be about all that would remain after eliminating the flashier stuff.

So basically, if you eliminated spellcasting clerics and true mages (leaving bards and magicians with some alterations), you could quite happily create a fairly low-magic D&D setting.


I mostly canned such spells IMC, just to prevent such problems. (Even Invisibility is non-existant, the best you can get is Chameleon Power, and Flying has never been invented either.) I do subscribe to the Shadow World angle though, and have replaced the "summoning" and other "planar" based spells to utilize the shadow world.

Yep - teleport, invisibility (esp. improved invisibility), and fly are 3 of the biggest game-breaking spells in D&D, because there is no real defense against them except by other equally-powerful spellcasters with the proper counter-magics. I run into it again and again: higher-level rogues with blink or improved invisibility are absolutely disgusting against mortal foes, and teleport creates all sorts of nightmarish high-magic scenarios - especially of there's a devious blood-hungry teleoprter on the loose -like the Gorgon, to name one blatant example (there's another thread talking about that subject, though).


I am still curious though, for those who use teleport, what actual mechanics are used to represent error/mishap? Anything consistent, or just ad hoc each time?

Osprey

[Trithemius]

Originally posted by Osprey+Mar 10 2005, 03:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Osprey &#064; Mar 10 2005, 03:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I am still curious though, for those who use teleport, what actual mechanics are used to represent error/mishap? Anything consistent, or just ad hoc each time? [/b]
I favour slapping people who misuse, rather than any mechanical system which might serve to punish someone for using it once but spare a serial abuser.

Besides, a warning is much more useful if people know it isn&#39;t random.

<!--QuoteBegin-Morgramen@ Mar 10 2005, 11:49 AM
I mostly canned such spells IMC, just to prevent such problems. (Even Invisibility is non-existant, the best you can get is Chameleon Power, and Flying has never been invented either.) I do subscribe to the Shadow World angle though, and have replaced the "summoning" and other "planar" based spells to utilize the shadow world.[/quote]

I am personally a bit loathe to do this, since flight and invisibility are "signature" powers of magic (at least to me). I wonder if a kind of "psionic invisibility" (people don&#39;t notice you, so long as you are not especially noticeable) might be an alternative. I must admit that I have been loathe to use flying in my games (and in yours Morg&#33;) since wizards gliding around look a trifle daft - I&#39;d use some kind of shapechanging magic but the latest version of D&D seems to have nerfed polymorph-type spells because of their combat applications. Perhaps a Fly alternative might transform the caster into a bird or something similar for a reasonable duration? It&#39;s stylish and its "in genre" for a setting like Birthright.

P.S. I scoff at the idea that BR is "low magic", it simply is a different flavour of magic to typical D&D games - it has high magic, but it is magic that is interesting and toothsome, as opposed to the "magic shop" style of a lot of campaign settings.
If Cerilia is low magic, thenso is Mythic Europe - the Ars Magica setting - and I am also the Pope. ;)

[epicsoul]

I am still curious though, for those who use teleport, what actual mechanics are used to represent error/mishap? Anything consistent, or just ad hoc each time?

It was mostly ad hoc initially... will dig out my old notes here, and post everything that I had created tonight, with luck. It started assembling into an actual system of rules for me after awhile...

[Cesari]

As I recall, the "travel spells go through the Shadow World" is actually in one of the books, not just a common house rule. In either case the realm spell Shadow Block from BoM would stop any and all teleporting and the like in the provinces it affects. And its the sort of spell many regents wouldn&#39;t mind paying for simply off its normal use.

As for Forbidance, I seem to recall it only being able to be cast on a consecrated religious site, but maybe thats on in 2nd edition. Not a problem for theocracies, but given the nature of some regents not the sort of thing a good (as in devout) priest should necessarily just do.

[Thomas_Percy]

Originally posted by Cesari@Mar 10 2005, 09:02 PM
As for Forbidance, I seem to recall it only being able to be cast on a consecrated religious site, but maybe thats on in 2nd edition.
Forbiddance can be cast not only at Concecrated/Desacrated land in the 3,5.
Evil cleric (or mage by Limited Wish) can cast it for an evil ruler.

[Cesari]

Well Forbidance is a 6th level spell so there really aren&#39;t that many people who can cast it. Rhober Niclair and Hubaere Armiendin are the only anuireans who spring to mind. Most people tend to be fairly low level.

[Trithemius]

Originally posted by Cesari@Mar 11 2005, 07:02 AM
As I recall, the "travel spells go through the Shadow World" is actually in one of the books, not just a common house rule. In either case the realm spell Shadow Block from BoM would stop any and all teleporting and the like in the provinces it affects. And its the sort of spell many regents wouldn&#39;t mind paying for simply off its normal use.
The BRCS, if you are inclined that way, states that the Shadow World replaces the transitive planes that are normally used for teleportation magic - see Manual of the Planes for the list of these spells.

Given this, it follows that blocking off the SW would also prevent these spells from functioning.

[Thomas_Percy]

Originally posted by Trithemius@Mar 11 2005, 06:10 AM
The BRCS, if you are inclined that way, states that the Shadow World replaces the transitive planes that are normally used for teleportation magic. Given this, it follows that blocking off the SW would also prevent these spells from functioning.
And from the other side:
Forbiddance, Dimension Lock and similiar spells block every intrusions from the Shadow World, so wild Gates can be sealed this way on the Eve of the Dead.

[Cesari]

And from the other side:
Forbiddance, Dimension Lock and similiar spells block every intrusions from the Shadow World, so wild Gates can be sealed this way on the Eve of the Dead.

But once again, just who exactly is supposed to be casting these spells? Regents can&#39;t just pull an 11th level priest out of their hat (In the case of Forbidance, don&#39;t know what level dimension lock is). There aren&#39;t very many priests in Cerilia who are that high level. I realize there are priests other than the regents who might be well leveled but birthright tends to run mid to low level for most NPCs

[Thomas_Percy]

And my lonesome evil Clr7 will destroy without leaving home all Seaharrow and kill archduke Aeric Boeruine.
Maximum 6000gp. Lesser Planar Ally. Succubus.
She teleports into Boeruine castle, casts Suggestions at hundred guards... if some of them succeded at Will save, she teleports to another chamber and repeats Suggestion.
Then my army will kill archduke and destroy his city.

best regards, Clr7, new tyrant of Boeruine

[A_dark]

I don&#39;t use a special mechanic, but if a player does something as stupid as teleporting to avoid the dungeon or teleporting and assassinating and if he does not realise how stupid that is, I have other people, more poweful people, follow his example. Rhuobhe, Chimaera, Gorgon for starters. The PC gets killed and everyone learns from the experience.

If I realise that the player is considering such an action I give them a warning. They stumble upon some story of a teleporting assassin and how everyone was pissed off at them and how the entire Council or Gorgy teleported in and killed the assassin with ease.

I prefer intimidation and punishment to extra rules :D

[Cesari]

if a player does something as stupid as teleporting to avoid the dungeon or teleporting and assassinating and if he does not realise how stupid that is, I have other people, more poweful people, follow his example. Rhuobhe, Chimaera, Gorgon for starters. The PC gets killed and everyone learns from the experience.

What exactly is stupid about using the spells at your disposal to avoid uneccessary danger and accomplish your mission as efficiently as possible? Your better off just removing the spell from the game, because that would at least make sense.


And my lonesome evil Clr7 will destroy without leaving home all Seaharrow and kill archduke Aeric Boeruine.
Maximum 6000gp. Lesser Planar Ally. Succubus.
She teleports into Boeruine castle, casts Suggestions at hundred guards... if some of them succeded at Will save, she teleports to another chamber and repeats Suggestion.
Then my army will kill archduke and destroy his city.

best regards, Clr7, new tyrant of Boeruine

A non-teleporting summoned fiend can do that almost as easily, leaving out the part where you negotiate with it and pray it doesn&#39;t make its SR check and eat you, so what are you arguing here? And anyways, fiends are notorious for getting what THEY want out of a deal and leaving you high and dry. That centuries+ of experience edge they have in such matters tends to beat pompous clerics.

[ConjurerDragon]

Thomas_Percy schrieb:



>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=3026

>

> Thomas_Percy wrote:

> And my lonesome evil Clr7 will destroy without leaving homeall Seaharrow and kill archduke Aeric Boeruine.

>Maximum 6000gp. Lesser Planar Ally. Succubus.

>She teleports into Boeruine castle, casts Suggestions at hundred guards... if some of them succeded at Will save, she teleports to another chamber and repeats Suggestion.

>Then my army will kill archduke and destroy his city.

>best regards, Clr7

>

It is the deitys choice which lesser Planar Ally you receive as I

understand, so it is not given that it will be a Succubus.

The cost would not only be in gp, but also 100XP.

You can´t be a cleric with the Good domain, doing that as calling an

evil creature means you´re casting an evil spell.

Few gods would aid an attempt at assasination - Haelyn or Cuiraceen

would certainly not support assasination attempts of legal rulers.

As assaulting a castle with perhaps hundreds of soldiers, servants and

guards, and assasinating one of the major leaders of Anuire is a

difficult task IMO I would say that it would not count as

"nonhazardous" and require a greater gift than normal.

bye

Michael

[A_dark]

It&#39;s stupid to avoid a dungeon by teleporting because then you are not really playing and if the Dm was counting on spending a couple of real-time hours in the dungeon, you just ruined the day ;)

teleportation can have its uses, but not to avoid a dungeon or to assassinate people...

you can use the spell once you get out of the dungeon to return to the city and report to chambie or something like that

it&#39;s just my opinion ;) nobody needs to agree with me ;)

[Michael Romes]

Originally posted by A_dark@Mar 12 2005, 06:13 PM
It&#39;s stupid to avoid a dungeon by teleporting because then you are not really playing and if the Dm was counting on spending a couple of real-time hours in the dungeon, you just ruined the day ;)

teleportation can have its uses, but not to avoid a dungeon or to assassinate people...

you can use the spell once you get out of the dungeon to return to the city and report to chambie or something like that

it&#39;s just my opinion ;) nobody needs to agree with me ;)
To avoid a dungeon or not to avoid a dungeon is simply a matter of taste and
the campaign - teleporting is a mighty tool for a wizard and who would expect a
wizard to not use his tools in the best way?

If a dungeon is between the party and the target of the quest, then the party
can either fight through the dungeon to get to the target (and collect the loot and XP on the way), or they can teleport directly to the target.

Both ways are valid, I would for example prefer the latter way if some imposter
sits on the throne and the guards are deluded in thinking they defend the true king.
Fighting through the loyal royal guards because teleporting is stupid?

For making Teleport less useful in avoiding situations the DM wishes the PC´s to go through I would like to mention the way the game Daggerfall from Bethesda uses Teleport: You cast the Spell once to set an anchor at a location you already visited and with another casting of the spell you can return later to that location.

That is much more restrictive than simply knowing the location from divination as required by Teleport in D&D.

[Thomas_Percy]

To limit a Teleport = to limit all creatures with Teleport as a typical ability, demons for example.
To limit a Teleport = to limit all this scheming NPC mages, viziers, demons... typical villains.

[Osprey]

To limit a Teleport = to limit all creatures with Teleport as a typical ability, demons for example.
To limit a Teleport = to limit all this scheming NPC mages, viziers, demons... typical villains.

That&#39;s exactly the point. As a DM, it gets hard for me to justify to myself "why wouldn&#39;t the villain, an acomplished mage or an ally of one, use teleport to &#39;port in and off a rival?"

With low-risk teleport, I often end up without any good reason at all.

Take the Gorgon, for example. Why would he risk facing a united band of heroes gathered to attack him with all their allies, cohorts, and followers on the open field, when he could (as any master strategist would desire) easily use teleportation to control the time and place of battle himself. Control the time, place, and go in fully prepared while his enemy is weak...this is called sound strategy using the tools at your disposal.

If the Gorgon was some goody-goody LG ershegh who only fights honorably, OK there&#39;s a good reason. But this is the Gorgon&#33; One of the baddest, meanest, most ruthless masters of war and combat that Aebrynis has ever seen. As soon as it&#39;s a good time to harvest a bloodline, why wait?

Prepared with spells and items, the Gorgon has little to fear from a whole castle full of low-level guards. One-on-one he will crush anyone alive in very short order.

Less obvious, but imagine a group of enemies: say Guilder Kalien, Caine, and a few of Kalien&#39;s cohorts (who will be up to 2 levels below Kalien), ranging from 7th-12th level, decide to rid themselves of a common enemy. A nasty little group, who could very easily teleport into the depths of an enemy castle, dispath the few guards in the way, and take out the enemy regent before he knows what&#39;s going on. A little stealth, poison, sneak attacking, magic...game over, man.

What witnesses?

Very VERY powerful - my enemies don&#39;t need this to be a reliable ability to be challenging, even to epic-level PC&#39;s.


Frequent use of teleport also tends to shortcut a story, which is annoying. ;)

If teleporting is dangerous, it&#39;s far more interesting: you won&#39;t use it unless the potential gains are worth the risk. Dilemmas are the meat of good roleplaying.

Osprey

[epicsoul]

Thank you Osprey. You said much more clearly and concisely what I tried to explain...

[Cesari]

To limit a Teleport = to limit all creatures with Teleport as a typical ability, demons for example.
To limit a Teleport = to limit all this scheming NPC mages, viziers, demons... typical villains.

I&#39;m all in favor of limiting teleport and the like but the point I was making is very few people are high enough level to cast the teleport prevention spells. Increasing the number of mid to high level clerics and whatnot to counter the wizards makes the problem worse, not better, as the overall amount of magic floating around increases. So now you have a whole lot more people capable of casting things like Planar Ally and other high level summon spells, and spells like gaes/quest which can cause quite a bit of havoc. Not to mention the increase to the number of people capable of raising the dead, formerly a true rarity in Anuire since only 9th+ level priests of Kreisha, Nesirie, Sera and Ruornil could even cast it (in 2nd)

EDIT:
say Guilder Kalien, Caine, and a few of Kalien&#39;s cohorts (who will be up to 2 levels below Kalien), ranging from 7th-12th level

When did Kalien gain 8 levels?

[Osprey]

When did Kalien gain 8 levels?

I was positing a more advanced game, where the PC&#39;s have reached similar levels. If the PC&#39;s are low-level (1st-3rd), they&#39;re probably not worth the notice of any teleport-capable mages (or fiends, etc.) in Cerilia.

I know Kalien isn&#39;t 10th-12th level in 551 MR (according to the Atlas). But if your PC&#39;s start in that time, then Kalien will probably advance at a similar pace to them. He&#39;s one of the most ambitious and dynamic NPC&#39;s in the game (evidence: he&#39;s one of the all-time favorite characters for PC conversion and NPC villain status in Birthright - ask around if you don&#39;t believe me).

Also, I&#39;ve always thought Kalien&#39;s level in the Atlas far too low given his extensive and accomplished record of plotting, diplomacy, and espionage. It&#39;s like the designers were saying, "Well, he hasn&#39;t really gotten out and killed many monsters, so where would he get the XP?" Silly.

[Cesari]

Also, I&#39;ve always thought Kalien&#39;s level in the Atlas far too low given his extensive and accomplished record of plotting, diplomacy, and espionage. It&#39;s like the designers were saying, "Well, he hasn&#39;t really gotten out and killed many monsters, so where would he get the XP?" Silly.

I think that was more based around how proficiencies used to work, since they had nothing to do with level really, just talent. Kalien&#39;s levels were as a theif, and I would imagine these days he mostly has other people do the "dirty work" for him. Of course now there&#39;s classes like the expert for sheer skill advancement so he should probably bump a bit

[dragonfriend]

oh, and one important thing...not every mage is supposed to know teleport. Only because the spell is in the player&#39;s handbook in doesn&#39;t mean is a spell everyone know.

[Osprey]

oh, and one important thing...not every mage is supposed to know teleport. Only because the spell is in the player&#39;s handbook in doesn&#39;t mean is a spell everyone know.

But when it&#39;s a spell that any mage in his right mind would want to know, it&#39;s guaranteed to become relatively common as 5th-level spells go. The ability to teleport is such a huge advantage in so many situations...it is very obviously (IMO) one of the first spells a mage would try to learn when they hit 9th or 10th level.

Hence my desire to temper its power and at least make it more risky.