Optional rules for skills

[Green Knight]

Hi,

Skills have become an important part of all DnD games, and perhaps especially so in non-dungeon-crawl settings like BR.

Here are some optional rules that can be used with the existing skills system:

1. Free skill selection for Intelligence (also found in Conan d20)

When you level up under this rule ONLY those skill points derived from class are tied to your class skills. Any bonus skill points from high Intelligence or from racial features (such as for humans) can be spent on ANY skill at the more favorable 1/1 rate.

This rule is intended to reward players with a high intelligence. This does of course mean that classes which already benefit from a high Intelligence (wizards and magicians comes to mind, and all humans also benefit from it), but should also make intelligence more attractive for other players.

This option does not work too well with rule 2, but works reasonably well with rules 3-6.

2. Flexible CC skills (from Don E)

When you level up under this rule you are allowed to purchase ranks in CC skills at the more favorable 1/1 rate. However, your are now limited to a maximum number of ranks in a CC skill of (3+level)/2 - your class skills from any previous class HAVE NO EFFECT.

This rule is intended to make every skill point count, but to only allow you to become really good at your class skills. So a fighter can now purchase spot at a resonable price, but he will never become as good at it as the ranger.

This rule also encourages you to multiclass to enable you to max out your skill ranks. Incidentally, you also had to multiclass under the v.3.5 rules too enable you
to purchase skill ranks in CC skills beyond the (3+level)/2 rank limit.

This option does not work too well with rule 1, but works reasonably well with rules 3-6.

3. Skill Dice and Training

When you level up under this rule instead of getting fixed skill points per level, you get to roll a SKILL DICE to determine the number of skill points you get. The skill dice is similar to the hit dice, except you get to apply your Int modifier to the roll (minimum of 1).

Your skill dice is determined by the number of skill points you would normally get; 2 pts = d4, 4 pts = d6, 6 pts = d8, and 8 pts = d10. You get four skill dice at first level, and elite characters get maximum skill points at first level (so a 1st level rogue would get 40 pts before adjustment for Int and race).

The Skill Dice rule is ONLY intended for use together with rules for Training for skill ranks. By spending 1 month training, you can make a Training Check DC Variable to add one skill rank, but only up to the your maximum for your class/level (so a 2nd level human rogue with Int 13, could have a maximum of 60 ranks in skills).

Reccomended - You can also decide to use fixed skill points with this rule, in which case characters get as many skill points as they would if getting fixed hps (d6 = 3, d8 = 4 and so on). In effect, characters are giving up a few skill points when they advance in level, in return for the potential to gain MORE skill points over time.

This rule is intended to give this makes for a more gradual gain in skill points. It also offers the potential for more skill points, which is a good thing as characters have too few points as is IMO. It also makes skill gain similar to hp gain, which is kind of nice. Lastly it offers the opportunity for character development NOT tied to level, which is quite fitting in BR (but without really removing level gains as the primary road to prominence).

In addition, training makes for a good activity during downtime between adventures (or quite periods for your domain). Maybe the wizard is spending time crafting magic items, but your fighter is actually doing something too - instead of just relaxing in the local tavern.

Btw: I really liked the Training action from the BR box...

This option works reasonably well with all the other options.

4. Additional skill points

When leveling up under this rule all classes get 2 extra skill points, giving fighters, clerics and wizard 4 each, and rogues a decent 10. Since characters are limited by max ranks for level, they will generally get more skills, but will not be better in the skills they would already choose.

This rule is simply intended to provide characters with more skill points. I think all classes have too few skill points.Skills as cool, let characters have more of them.

This option works reasonably well with all the other options, but if used with rule no. 3 above, increase the skill dice by one step instead (to d6 for fighters and d12 for rogues).

5. Freeform Craft/Knowledge/Perform/Profession

When leveling up under this rule all classes have all variants of the above skills as class skills - but only with the DM's approval (based on background, interests, study opportunities etc.).

This option works reasonably well with all the other options.

6. Trainable Craft/Knowledge/Perform/Profession

This rule has no effect wehn leveling up. However, when Training in one of the skills above, the number of ranks in that skill does not count towards the maximum number of ranks for class/level.

This rule is only intended for use with the Training rule.

Having these skills are great for character-building, but VERY bad for most other purposes. The benefits of having many reanks in several profession and knowledge skills really won't affect your games very much...except to provide depth to characters withour taking away skill points from useful skills.

Use any or all of the above...

B

[RaspK_FOG]

I generally think that most of the suggestions you present here do not work overtly well with the current skill system; also, allow me to point out that your maximum ranks in a skill are defined by whether you have the skill as a class skill or not: raising a level in a class that has the skill as a cross-class skill only inhibits raising your ranks due to the 2-for-1 rule.

[Green Knight]

Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Feb 14 2005, 11:41 AM
I generally think that most of the suggestions you present here do not work overtly well with the current skill system
OK...anything in particular the would not work overtly well?

[Green Knight]

Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Feb 14 2005, 11:41 AM
also, allow me to point out that your maximum ranks in a skill are defined by whether you have the skill as a class skill or not: raising a level in a class that has the skill as a cross-class skill only inhibits raising your ranks due to the 2-for-1 rule.
Yes, which is why I put in a change for rule no 2 so that only the class you are advancing in counts - otherwise the would be no difference between class and cross-class skills at all...

[RaspK_FOG]

That's for the worse! The system currently allows one to reach a point of expertise of the level he desires despite paying an awful lot to reach there, yet you went the whole way around! To mention a major design flaw, tell me exactly what happens when someone maxed out his ranks in a class skill in one level and in the next level the skill is considered to be a cross-class skill for that class?

The idea of using Int-garnered skill points seems good at first glance, but having already seen it in Conan from a friend who purchased the book, I can tell you there is a flaw here as well: why should the wizard be as good a skill user as the rogue? This way, a very clever character beats all else.

The whole thing boils down to: "Why should this be done?"

The rule I have the most problem with are the die rolls: you did not even factor in how buffling can it be for a player to have his precious (and particularly important as a whole) 8 + Int skill points per level rounding down to 1 + Int... Why roll 1 die only and not more (say, 4d3)?

[Green Knight]

Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Feb 14 2005, 12:39 PM
That's for the worse! The system currently allows one to reach a point of expertise of the level he desires despite paying an awful lot to reach there, yet you went the whole way around!
I disagree - it is not worse, but it is certainly DIFFERENT. As you say this rule turns the system pretty much 180 degrees around. I really haven't seen many players buy any cross-class skills...they are too expensive to justify it...but by using this optional rule you work around that problem.

I'm also pretty certain that under the standard v.3.5 skill system, a player who wants to be really good at a skill periodcally multiclasses over to a class which has that skill as a class skill. Multiclassing would have the same benefits under this system.

[Green Knight]

Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Feb 14 2005, 12:39 PM
To mention a major design flaw, tell me exactly what happens when someone maxed out his ranks in a class skill in one level and in the next level the skill is considered to be a cross-class skill for that class?
Not a flaw at all - intentional rule design...

You would not be able to purchase any ranks in that skill, since you would be limited to lvl+3/2 ranks in it.

The only way to get around it would be for you to level up in a class which has it as a class skill...which is how this rule was intended to limit people from maxing out everything regardless of class/cross-class!

[Green Knight]

Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Feb 14 2005, 12:39 PM
The idea of using Int-garnered skill points seems good at first glance, but having already seen it in Conan from a friend who purchased the book, I can tell you there is a flaw here as well: why should the wizard be as good a skill user as the rogue? This way, a very clever character beats all else.

I think this rule has a lot of merit (but it doesn't work very well with option no 2, so the two should not ).

It gives added flexibility to skill selection, much like option no 2, only in another manner. I does make Int a slightly more desirable stat, which will of course benefit classes with already high Int the most.

Anyway, a mid-clever rogue will still have way more skills than a smart wizard, and will likely have very different skills as well...so while it is certainly a slight gain for the wizard, it really doesn't tip the balance of power too much (the wizard is still mostly about spells and not skills).

I'd even go as far as to claim that the wizard become not more powerful, but only more interesting as he now can pick a few skills ouside concentration, spellcraft and knowledge.

B

[Green Knight]

Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Feb 14 2005, 12:39 PM
The rule I have the most problem with are the die rolls: you did not even factor in how buffling can it be for a player to have his precious (and particularly important as a whole) 8 + Int skill points per level rounding down to 1 + Int... Why roll 1 die only and not more (say, 4d3)?
This rule is indeed the most radical departure from the norm.

However, if you ready the entire option 3, this rule is intended for use with the Training option from the BR box. You give up a fixed number of skill points for a chancy dice roll, BUT you can eventually train until you get MORE skill points than with the fixed pts option. Which was the whole idea behind the option - a more gradual gain in skill points.

The new skill dice is similar to the hit dice; hit points are also random (but could also be trained).

B

[Green Knight]

Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Feb 14 2005, 12:39 PM
The whole thing boils down to: "Why should this be done?"
Why not?

These are optional rules only - posted in the homebrew forum to give players and DM ideas about how to do things in a different manner, hopefully adding to the play experience.

B

[irdeggman]

Maybe I'm missing something here but the two of you seem to be operating under the notion that the core rules limits your max skill ranks due to the cost of skills.

This is not true.

Per the core rules a skill is a class skill if it is on the class skill list for any class that the character has as far as maximum ranks that the character can have The difference is how much each rank costs and that depends on the class that gave the skill points being used, at one level the class could cost 1 sp and at another it could cost 2 sp but the total max ranks the character could have is the same (total class levels plus 3).

There is a new feat in The Complete Adventurer (or Races of Destiny but I beleive it is C Ad) called able learner that allows a character to treat any skill as a class skill regardless of class. It is limited to humans and dopplegangers and must be taken at first level only.


Be careful with how these options integrate with prestige class requirements. While most of the 3.5 version rely on a rank level of 8 (which requires at least a 5th level character to have) some of these options will require adjusting the prereqs to account for this, especially when the max rank limit is broken.

Option 3 might work better when tied into the optional training rules from the DMG with times required to pick up skill ranks, etc. By using this die roll to determine the progress made it makes the time requiremnt more meaningful, especially if the time is raised to 1 week per rank (total trying to achieve). By this if a person was trying to get to rank 5 it would take 5 weeks (it is harder to get the final progress because of the detail involved) by rolling the situational die (based on the skill point die above) the character measures his progress like he would a craft check.


I would add a note stating which combinations of options are not recommended (or at least require careful ejudication) some when combined make things way out of whack, but individually they are reasonable. Combining option 2 and 4 would allow character to ahve a lot of max ranked skills since they can buy them cheaper and have more skill points to spend at the same time.

[RaspK_FOG]

On the contrary, Irdeggman, I say that the cost to increase your ranks is less important than the maximum ranks you can get: paying double to reach the same is fairly good enough for some players (and non-min-maxers will avoid multi-classing just to get where they want to get faster), while the prohibition imposed by having to pay double-rate to reach only half the potential of others, well, THAT's what hurts...

I generally believe that, under the current class system, skills work as fine as they can; I have sketched up a number of set of variant rules regarding classes and skills but they do not mesh well with many classes, working a lot better with more generic, "build-them-the-way-you-like" classes.

[Danip]

Skills have become an important part of all DnD games, and perhaps especially so in non-dungeon-crawl settings like BR.

Rather agree. I have noticed that the 2 skill points that a not smart fighter gets really hurts in a non-dungeon game. When you add in the new BR skills this hurts even more. I am playing with a human fighter with int 9. He only really has one skill. In comparison, my ranger/rogue is a skill demon. We almost cannot play the same game. Im poor for combat and he is poor for anything non-combat.



Here are some optional rules that can be used with the existing skills system:

1. Free skills for Intelligence - Under this rule ONLY those skill points derived from class are tied to the list of class skills for that class. Any bonus skill points from high Intelligence or from racial features (such as for humans) can be spent on ANY skill at the more favorable 1/1 rate.

Interesting. Doesnt help will skill point poor characters, but opens up skills a bit. Never can know what that wizard villian will be good at...


2. Flexible CC skills - Under this rule you are still limited to 3+class lvl/2 ranks in a cc skill BUT any skill point put in a cc skill buys one rank! Let's face it, 2 points for a cc is so expensive that 99% of all characters will stay away from them. When you advance in level, you ONLY get the class you're advancing in as class skills for the purose of max ranks. Under this rule, you still can't get very good at cc skills, but at least you can still learn SOMETHING.

see duane's post as to why this is broken. The 2 point cost is prohibitive, but kinda works.


3. Skill Dice and Training - Instead of getting fixed skill point per level, you get to roll a dice each time you advance. 2 pts = d4, 4 pts = d6 and so on. Combined with the ability to Train for skill ranks up to your maximum for class/level, this makes for a more gradual gain in skill points (I really like the Training action from the BR box).

So if you roll low, you can train more to get to where you would have normally? What if your at max-2, gain 2pts, roll d4 and get 4?
Perhaps I dont understand this one. Rolling bad and not getting the chance to work up to where you would have been would really suck. One reason many DMs go with average hit points...


4. Additional skill point - Most character have too few skill points. Give all classes 2 extra skill points, giving fighters, clerics and wizard 4 each, and rogues a decent 10. Skills as cool, let characters have more of them - since the max rank rule prevents low-level characters from being powerful, this really doesn't unbalance anything. If used with rule no. 3 above, increase the skill dice by one step (to d6 for fighters and d12 for rogues).

A good variant. One Ive seen before. People seem to like.


5. Free Craft/Knowledge/Perform/Profession - All classes have all these skills as class skills - with the DM's approval. In addition, these skills are trainable beyond the maxium number of ranks for class/levels. Having these skills are great for character-building, but VERY bad for most other purposes. The benefits of havign many reanks in several profession and knowledge skills really won't affect your games very much...

Many people seem to think that making new and more knowledge skills is good. There seem to tons of homebrew knowledge skills out there and lots of PrCs that require ranks in silly things. In BR Knowledge local(province) really breaks the bank. Should a king have to take 5 ranks in each K(province), just to be familiar with his realm?

Skills ranks are not everything a character knows, just things they are developing to heroic level. Yes, even 1 skill rank is heroic. Just because a duke doesnt have K(nobility), doesnt mean he hasnt a clue about his way of life. He lives it. He just isnt the best herald or historian that the duchy has ever seen.

I like your class skill idea to help fight this bad trend. DM approval is a must though. Not every knowledge skill is apropriate for a boy off the farm. Character background is a better way to determine if these are class skills than class. Good variant. I managed to do a similar thing with my DM. Have a class skill Knowledge (Book), vaguely represents whatever my character would have learned in university instead of all those silly core knowledge skills.


You have some good ideas about skills. How would you solve the problem of my fighter friend with no skills? It might be a bit late in the campaign to introduce variants like yours. In game play terms we want to send him to college. But if you dont go up a level in D&D you dont advance skill-wise. (Training to get skill points without having gone up a level would be very very broken.) We thought noble levels gained from the next adventure might reflect previous college time sinking in. He is becoming a rich regent leader, so noble fits with his new lifestyle.

[Green Knight]

Originally posted by irdeggman@Feb 14 2005, 05:35 PM
Maybe I'm missing something here but the two of you seem to be operating under the notion that the core rules limits your max skill ranks due to the cost of skills.

This is not true.

Per the core rules a skill is a class skill if it is on the class skill list for any class that the character has as far as maximum ranks that the character can have The difference is how much each rank costs and that depends on the class that gave the skill points being used, at one level the class could cost 1 sp and at another it could cost 2 sp but the total max ranks the character could have is the same (total class levels plus 3).


That's not right - I think you're missing something...or maybe I just didn't formulate myself very well...

Under the v.3.5 rules you don't want to buy CC skills since they cost 2 point per rank. Your max rank is limited by whether ANY of your classes have that skill as a class skill (which is a weird rule if you ask me; one of the rare cases when your OTHER classes matter when you are multiclassing).

Now, with my optional rule no 2 ONLY the class you're leveling up in counts. You pay only 1 skill point per rank (instead of 2), but your max ranks will be limited to level+3/2.

So you're not going to be very good at your CC skills, but at least you're getting your money's worth for any skill points spent. The fix for this is of course to multiclass (which was the fix under the original system as well). I like it when the rules make multiclassing favorable.

I seriously mean this - I see very, very, very few players buying CC skills with the existing rules. I certainly would not. How often do you do it/see people doing it?

[Green Knight]

Originally posted by Danip@Feb 15 2005, 03:40 PM
[quote]
2. Flexible CC skills - Under this rule you are still limited to 3+class lvl/2 ranks in a cc skill BUT any skill point put in a cc skill buys one rank! Let's face it, 2 points for a cc is so expensive that 99% of all characters will stay away from them. When you advance in level, you ONLY get the class you're advancing in as class skills for the purose of max ranks. Under this rule, you still can't get very good at cc skills, but at least you can still learn SOMETHING.

see duane's post as to why this is broken. The 2 point cost is prohibitive, but kinda works.



It most certainly does not :-D

How often do your Int 10 fighter spend his measly skill points on CC skills like Sopt or Listen? How often does you rogue? Since he has so many class skills, why would he pick a cc skills?

[Green Knight]

Originally posted by Danip@Feb 15 2005, 03:40 PM
[quote]
3. Skill Dice and Training - Instead of getting fixed skill point per level, you get to roll a dice each time you advance. 2 pts = d4, 4 pts = d6 and so on. Combined with the ability to Train for skill ranks up to your maximum for class/level, this makes for a more gradual gain in skill points (I really like the Training action from the BR box).

So if you roll low, you can train more to get to where you would have normally? What if your at max-2, gain 2pts, roll d4 and get 4?
Perhaps I dont understand this one. Rolling bad and not getting the chance to work up to where you would have been would really suck. One reason many DMs go with average hit points...



This rule is intended to allow you to train up to the maximum for your dice size - 4 skill points for a d4 and so on. Which will actually give yoy 2 skill points more than the fixed skill points from v.3.5

[Green Knight]

Originally posted by Danip@Feb 15 2005, 03:40 PM


5. Free Craft/Knowledge/Perform/Profession - All classes have all these skills as class skills - with the DM's approval. In addition, these skills are trainable beyond the maxium number of ranks for class/levels. Having these skills are great for character-building, but VERY bad for most other purposes. The benefits of havign many reanks in several profession and knowledge skills really won't affect your games very much...

Many people seem to think that making new and more knowledge skills is good. There seem to tons of homebrew knowledge skills out there and lots of PrCs that require ranks in silly things. In BR Knowledge local(province) really breaks the bank. Should a king have to take 5 ranks in each K(province), just to be familiar with his realm?

Skills ranks are not everything a character knows, just things they are developing to heroic level. Yes, even 1 skill rank is heroic. Just because a duke doesnt have K(nobility), doesnt mean he hasnt a clue about his way of life. He lives it. He just isnt the best herald or historian that the duchy has ever seen.



I don't agree.

1 rank in sothing is not very heroic. A 2nd level commoner who is a farmer will have 5 ranks in Profession (farmer) and the Skill Focus feat. Assuming no other modifiers, that's a +8 to his profession skill check. Or maybe allow him a +2 synergy bonus from 5 ranks in Knowledge (nature), giving him a +10 bonus.

I think that is the standard that skills should be judged against, and I think characters should have easy access to a few Knowledge (local) skills to reflect their knowledge of the world.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Green Knight@Feb 15 2005, 10:44 AM

It most certainly does not :-D

How often do your Int 10 fighter spend his measly skill points on CC skills like Sopt or Listen? How often does you rogue? Since he has so many class skills, why would he pick a cc skills?
In the Star Wars game I play in my Klatoonian soldier/scoundrel spends skill points all the time on gambling and spot (both cross class skills for a solder) In fact his gamble skill is real close to maxed out. It is a storyline concept that we've kept going. Heck he even has Knowledge (alien species) - 1 rank and has made some lucky rolls on that one. And at 15th level his Int is 9 so at his next level he can get rid of his -1 penalty on skill points.

Spot is an almost essential skill for any character since it is used to keep from getting surprised so yes even a low INT character will buy some ranks at the cross-class rate. Besides fighters have so few class skills that they almost have to buy cross class ones.

Here is an even more applicable use of cross-class skills, Speak Language. It is cross class for everyone but wizards and bards and yet is an essential skill to have.

[RaspK_FOG]

Actually, Irdeggman, Speak Language is a class skill only for bards and Loremasters so far, maybe a couple other prestige classes and non-PHB core classes as well (I think the Dragon Disciple has it as a class skill); this skill happens to be particularly important, since characters know a very limited number of languages from character creation, which is based on both Intelligence and your race (no Abyssal, Celestial, or Infernal for non-priests, and Draconic and Sylvan are pretty closely guarded). I should know, I used to play a bard who knew about a dozen tongues under 3e, when bards got only 4 + Int points, and I took quite a number of cross-class skills as a player, even as a druid some time ago!

The point is that characters, if played decently, will devote their time on things they are not inherently good at so they don't falter at crucial times.

Increasing the number of skill points granted to classes by 2 seems the only suggestion among those you gave that I am not against; I will not discuss this mechanic, since it is not something I have a serious problem with. However, allow me to explain where the issue is with not inhibiting bying ranks but considering class skills on a per class scale: if a 5th-level rogue has 7 ranks in Move Silently and takes a level as a fighter, the 3.5e rules would allow him to spend 4 skill points to reach his new maximum of 9 ranks, but your rules do not allow the character to do that; why not?

In other words, your suggestion is, more or less, one of min-maxing: it will make characters who are based on skill selection take several classes as a resort to getting the skills they want; not for the role they should be playing, but for the skills and only the skills!

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Feb 15 2005, 02:03 PM
Actually, Irdeggman, Speak Language is a class skill only for bards and Loremasters so far, maybe a couple other prestige classes and non-PHB core classes as well (I think the Dragon Disciple has it as a class skill);
Yes as soon as I typed it I thought this didn't sound correct. I knew it was a class skill for bards though. And yes I've played my number of bards in the past too (some of my most fun characters were bards) and even when I didn't play characters with classes that had Speak Language as a class skill I have routinely taken a number of additional languages because it seemed like the best thing to do. Some of this might be a carry over from a game where we ended up killing a PC because our PCs couldn' talk to each other.

[Angelbialaska]

I think that a major problem with skills in Birthright is how you must assign skill points to certain skills that you must have something in to collect regency points for your domain.

A fighter has to be level 4 for instance, before they can gather full RP from Province and Law holdings and even then they have spent 6 skill points for Diplomacy rank 3 (cc), 7 skill points for warcraft rank 7 and 5 skill points for Lead rank 5. That is a total of 18 skill points required.

Int 10 human fighter would have 21 skill points on level 4, leaving only 3 skill points for other skills.

Personally I feel that the need to invest such great amounts of skill points in certain skills, especially for a low level fighter, is very much a hindrance. This is my primary reason to think that an additional 8 skill points on level 1 and 2 extra skill points per level would be an aid to solve the harsh skill demands.

[Osprey]

A fighter has to be level 4 for instance, before they can gather full RP from Province and Law holdings and even then they have spent 6 skill points for Diplomacy rank 3 (cc), 7 skill points for warcraft rank 7 and 5 skill points for Lead rank 5. That is a total of 18 skill points required.

Int 10 human fighter would have 21 skill points on level 4, leaving only 3 skill points for other skills.


Except that Anuirean and Khinasi Fighters now have Diplomacy as a class skill (in the 3.5 BRCS, Ch 1). Now only 15 points.

5 ranks in each mean the fighter need only be 2nd level to get maximum RP collection from Land and Law holdings. And having 2 of his main skills be Lead and Warcraft is exactly what a serious landed/law regent should be spending his skill points on - even if he's not too bright otherwise.

In Brechtur, Rjurik, and Vosgaard, I have noticed a generally low average province level, suggesting that most regents in these regions really aren't all that skilled as landed regents.

In Brechtur, they can easily enough start as a noble or rogue and get many skill points.

The Rjurik and Vos have it a lot harder, but guess what: they're the 2 most un-developed regions in Cerilia, so this seems to me like a pretty fair representation for all of the human cultures.

Non-human races tend to have fairly low levels of provinces too (if any), and dwarves having Fighter as a favored class makes multiclassing as a rogue, cleric, or anyone else with the Diplomacy class skill quite feasible. Elves suffer a bit, but they tend to be wizard regents first, landed a distant second.

Truth be told, what Fighters suffer from the most as landed regents is not having Administrate as a class skill. Ouch. This is the single biggest reason that Nobles (along with 4 more skill points per level) are now the dominant landed regent class, and fighters have slipped a notch to being "excellent law regents, fair landed regents." But hey, they're Fighters - they're good at fighting. Really good, in fact. And having a landed regent who can kick some serious butt, and lead his armies to do the smae, well - that's worth a lot to a realm, especially one with violent neighbors (i.e., most of Cerilia).

[Green Knight]

Originally posted by Angelbialaska@Feb 16 2005, 02:26 AM
I think that a major problem with skills in Birthright is how you must assign skill points to certain skills that you must have something in to collect regency points for your domain.

A fighter has to be level 4 for instance, before they can gather full RP from Province and Law holdings and even then they have spent 6 skill points for Diplomacy rank 3 (cc), 7 skill points for warcraft rank 7 and 5 skill points for Lead rank 5. That is a total of 18 skill points required.

Int 10 human fighter would have 21 skill points on level 4, leaving only 3 skill points for other skills.

Personally I feel that the need to invest such great amounts of skill points in certain skills, especially for a low level fighter, is very much a hindrance. This is my primary reason to think that an additional 8 skill points on level 1 and 2 extra skill points per level would be an aid to solve the harsh skill demands.
Indeed a problem, especially since fighters are so profilic in Birthright. However, this is a BRCS rule (RP collection by skills) so it isn't really relevant to me...

[Green Knight]

Hi,

I've updated and added to the various skill options to make their use a little clearer. This post was orininally something of a brainstorm session, but since it got a lot of replies I felt it was appropriate to spend some more time clarifying those options.

[geeman]

At 03:40 PM 2/15/2005 +0100, Danip wrote:



>I have noticed that the 2 skill points that a not smart fighter gets

>really hurts in a non-dungeon game. When you add in the new BR skills

>this hurts even more. I am playing with a human fighter with int 9. He

>only really has one skill. In comparison, my ranger/rogue is a skill

>demon. We almost cannot play the same game. Im poor for combat and he

>is poor for anything non-combat.



One of the things that I put into the skill system that I use is that the

skill points a character class gets is related to the number of class

skills they have. I give each of the classes skill points equal to about

1/3 of the number of class skills that the class has. It makes for a more

reasonable character development than the (more or less) arbitrary amounts

of skill points assigned to the various classes in 3e/3.5 that have no

relationship to the actual types of skills available as class skills to

those classes while preserving the amount of variation possible within the

classes themselves. By connecting skill points with class skills one can

then use them both as factors to balance character classes rather than just

skill points alone.



Gary

[RaspK_FOG]

I spoke of how I worked with my upcoming Masque of the Red Death campaign but gave little detail of the way things go...

Masque of the Red Death takes place in 1890 and had (and, in my conversion, still has) 4 core classes which represent 4 very generic archetypes: the adept, who is a least powerful magician, the mystic, who is more of a shaman in his channeling the power of spirits, the tradesman, who is between the wanderer from the Wheel of Time and the Expert from Unearthed Arcana and the DMG, and the soldier, who is like the warrior from Unearthed Arcana.

In my campaign, each class gets some skills by default (adepts, for example, get Knowledge [arcana] and Spellcraft), plus a number of class skill alocation points; each class then spends these class skills on some skills to have them as class skills. The system is a little complicated but has no mechanic flaw as far as I have seen and I can explain it in detail if you are interested...

[Osprey]

I'm finding the new cultural skills rules from Ch 1 of the BRCS a really excellent addition to my BR campaign. Having a few background skills as class skills, determined by one's culture, is very sensible.

The only thing I've been left wondering is why every culture/society, human or otherwise, doesn't have a select group of cultural background skills that are always treated as class skills. Non-humans, for instance, have racial bonuses to certain skills, yet these aren't necessarily class skills for them - not too useful for, say, the elven mage or dwarven fighter.

I'd prefer a setting where every culture is represented by a key set of skills that are always class skills. These represent what is commonly taught to children growing up within a culture, so that they become ingrained as "normal."

For instance, why not allow any Sidhelien to have Hide, Knowledge (Nature), Listen, Move Silently, and Spot as class skills? I have a hard time envisioning a typical BR elf who isn't exceptional (by human standards) in these abilities. A +2 racial bonus means "slightly better" in D&D mechanics (a 10% improvement in a d20 system), not really exceptional, just an edge.

Same with dwarves: why not give them Appraise, Craft, Knowledge (Dungeoneering), Knowledge (History), and Profession as cultural skills?

In fact, one could probably vouch for any one Profession skill being a background class skill at 1st level, regardless of class or race.

Even more interesting would be to allow humans, representing their versatile nature, to choose any one skill as a background class skill in addition to the standard selection of cultural ones.

All of these options just allow for more diversity of skills in PC's, which in the end allows for more interesting and non-generic characters and role-playing. Especially nice for those poor fighters and sorcerers, which have very few decent choices for class skills.